Your time to die

[MysticalGypsi]

Does Hinduism believe that you have one set time to die no matter what or can you change it by your behavior?

For example, do I have a specific time to go and no matter if I go fight a war or hide in my house, it will be my time by some means.

Or, does our action affect our time to go, speed it up or prolong our stay.

[sm78]

Astrology wouldn't have existed as an integral part of the vedic sciences if the exact time of death and similar trivialities couldn't be affected. But I am not sure fully. In modern times we have seen how super human medical effort have postponed death. But people say, such efforts are not good ~ time of death may get postponed but death will surely come and price may be heavier for the next life.

I know on a "bigger-picture" we are destined to die, reborn and mature. ;)

[satay]

what is death if not, a continuation of life? who wants to extend his stay here in this mrityuloka?

[Agnideva]

Namaste MG,

This is a good question, and I think can be explained by karma. Karma is explained in three terms: sanchita karma, prarabda karma, and kriyamana karma.

Sanchita karma is sum totality of all of one’s karma.

Prarabda karma is the fraction of the sanchita karma you are to experience in this lifetime. This is called destiny. It determines some of what you are to experience in this lifetime. What events are determined by your prarabda, you can’t fully say.

Then, there is kriyamana karma – karma accrued through actions as you go along.

Depending on what your prarabda holds for you, you or may not be able to affect events in your life through kriyamana karma. Sometimes, we try really hard to avoid something, but it’s unavoidable. This is due to our prarabda. Other times, as Singhi says, we are able to affect things with our actions, medical intervention, etc.

Satay also makes a good point. Death is only a part of life, not the end of our existence. Death is called the mahaprasthana, the great journey. Hinduism teaches us neither to look forward to, nor to fear death.

OM Shanti,
A.

[saidevo]

Namaste MG and Others.

Want to know your time of death, whatever your religion? Try this link:

http://www.deathclock.com/

...and RIP!

There is a belief among Hindus that if you sincerely and devotedly think of God and mentally chant his name just during the last moments of death, you will go to heaven and be relieved of much of your karma. This is easier said than done, though. There is an interesting story on this topic, told by Bhagavan Sri Satya Sai Baba:

There was this wealthy and flourishing trader, who was on his deathbed. In order to be reminded of God at deathtime, he had cleverly named his three sons Gopala, Govinda and Narayana who were all around his deathbed now. The businessman was in pain, though he chanted the names of his sons, 'Gopala, Govinda, Narayana!' Suddenly he remembered that all his three sons were beside him and there was no one to supervise their shop! So he wailed, "If all the three of you, my sons, come here, who will take care of the shop?" Just at the moment he spoke the last word, his soul separated from his body.

[saidevo]

Does Hinduism believe that you have one set time to die no matter what or can you change it by your behavior?

For example, do I have a specific time to go and no matter if I go fight a war or hide in my house, it will be my time by some means.

Or, does our action affect our time to go, speed it up or prolong our stay.


Here is an account of the types of oncoming astral life for souls that are released from their physical bodies under different circumstances:

Natural Death

Upon natural death, the physical body is dropped and the soul that now resides in its astral body goes to live in the astral world. After death, the astral body changes into a series of concentric shells having the grossest astral matter as the outermost, with shells of subtler matter at the inner rows.

There are seven sub-planes in the astral world and the soul resides in a plane that relates to the outermost shell of its astral body. The soul is 'promoted' to higher regions of subtler matter, as the shells wear away, one by one, in time.

It should be remembered here, that life in the astral world may mean more suffering than in physical life, depending on the desire element. This is because at least in the physical world, the soul had a physical body to experience its desires whereas in the astral world the overwhelming desire has no physical body to act it out. This is the reason, as clairvoyants have discovered, that the soul of a drunkard addicted to alcohol haunts the bars and other living drunkards drinking there, so as to catch the astral fumes of the liquor and derive satisfaction out of them.

In his book The Astral Body, Arthur A.Powell compiles the details of astral life for people who die under unnatural circumstances, thus (emphasis mine):

Death by Accident, Murder or Suicide


A sudden death, such as from an accident, need not necessarily affect the astral life in any way for the worse. At the same time, for most people, a more natural death is preferable, because the slow wasting away of the aged or the ravages of a long-continued illness are almost invariably accompanied by a considerable loosening and breaking up of the astral particles, so that when the man recovers consciousness upon the astral plane, he finds some, at any rate, of his principal work there already done for him.

In most cases, when earth life is suddenly cut short by accident or suicide, the link between kâma (desire) and prânâ (vitality) is not easily broken, and the astral body is consequently strongly vivified.

The withdrawal of the principles from their physical encasement, owing to sudden death of any kind, has been aptly compared to the tearing of the stone out of an unripe fruit. A great deal of the grossest kind of astral matter still clings around the personality, which is consequently held in the seventh or lowest astral sub-plane.

The mental terror and disturbance which sometimes accompany accidental death are, of course, a [Page 139] very unfavourable preparation for astral life. In certain rare cases the agitation and terror may persist for some time after death.

The victims of capital punishment, apart from the injury done to them by suddenly wrenching from the physical the astral body, throbbing with feelings of hatred, passion, revenge, and so forth, constitute a peculiarly dangerous element in the astral world. Unpleasant to society as a murderer in his physical body may be, he is clearly far more dangerous when suddenly expelled from the body: and, whilst society may protect itself from murderers in the physical body, it is at present defenceless against murderers suddenly projected on to the astral plane in the full flush of their passions.

Such men may well act as the instigators of other murders. It is well known that murders of a particular kind are sometimes repeated over and over again in the same community.

The position of the suicide is further complicated by the fact that his rash act has enormously diminished the power of the higher ego to withdraw its lower portion into itself, and therefore has exposed him to other and great dangers. Nevertheless it must be remembered, as already said, that the guilt of suicide differs considerably according to circumstances, from the morally blameless act of Socrates through all degrees down to that of a wretch who commits suicide in order to escape the physical results of his own crimes, and, of course, the position after death varies accordingly.

The karmic consequences of suicide are usually momentous: they are certain to affect the next life, and probably more lives than one. It is a crime against Nature to interfere with the prescribed period appointed for living on the physical life. For every man has an appointed life-term, determined by an intricate web of prior causes - i.e..,by karma - and that term must run out its appointed sands, before the dissolution of the personality. [Page 140]

The attitude of mind at the time of death determines the subsequent position of the person. Thus, there is a profound difference between one who lays down his life from altruistic motives and one who deliberately destroys his life from selfish motives, such as fear, etc..

Pure and spiritually-minded men, who are the victims of accident, etc., sleep out happily the term of their natural life. In other cases they remain conscious - often entangled in the final scene of earth-life for a time, held in whatever region they are related to by the outermost layer of their astral body. Their normal kâmalokic life does not begin until the natural web of earth-life is out-spun, and they are vividly conscious of both their astral and physical surroundings.

It must not for a moment, therefore, be supposed that because of the many superiorities of astral over physical life, a man is therefore justified in committing suicide or seeking death. Men are incarnated in physical bodies for a purpose which can be attained only in the physical world. There are lessons to be learnt in the physical world which cannot be learnt anywhere else, and the sooner we learn them the sooner we shall be free from the need to return to the lower and more limited life. The ego has to take much trouble in order to incarnate in a physical body, and also to live through the wearisome period of early childhood, during which he is gradually and with much effort gaining some control over his new vehicles, and therefore his efforts should not be foolishly wasted. In this respect the natural instinct of self-preservation is one which should be obeyed, it being a man's duty to make the most of his earthly life and to retain it as long as circumstances permit.

If a man, who has been killed suddenly, has led a low, brutal, selfish and sensual life, he will be fully conscious on the seven astral sub-plane, and is liable to develop into a terribly evil entity. Inflamed with appetites which he can no longer satisfy, he may endeavour to gratify his passions through a medium or any sensitive person who he can obsess. [Page 141] Such entities take a devilish delight in using all the arts of astral delusion to lead others into the same excesses in which they themselves indulged. From this class and from the vitalised shells (see page 172) are drawn the tempters - the devils of ecclesiastical literature.

The following is a strongly worded account of the victims of sudden death, whether suicides or killed by accident, when such victims are depraved and gross. “Unhappy shades, if sinful and sensual, they wander about... until their death-hour comes. Cut off in the full flush of earthly passions, which bind them to familiar scenes, they are enticed by opportunities which mediums afford to gratify them vicariously. They are the Pishâchas, the Incubi and Succubae of mediaeval times: the demons of thirst, gluttony, lust and avarice: elementaries of intensified craft, wickedness and cruelty: provoking their victims to horrid crimes, and revelling in their commission!”

Soldiers killed in battle do not quite come under this category, because, whether the cause for which they are fighting be in he abstract right or wrong, they think it to be right: to them it is the call of duty, and they sacrifice their lives willingly and unselfishly. In spite of its horrors, therefore, war may nevertheless be a potent factor in evolution at a certain level. This, also, is the grain of truth in the idea of the Mohammedan fanatic that the man who dies fighting for the faith goes straight to a very good life in the next world.

In the case of children dying young, it is unlikely l that they will have developed much affinity for the lowest sub-divisions of the astral world, and as a matter of experience they are seldom found on the lowest astral sub-planes.

Some people cling so desperately to material existence that at death their astral bodies cannot altogether separate from the etheric, and consequently they awaken still surrounded by etheric matter. Such persons are in a very unpleasant condition: they are shut out from the astral world by the etheric shell which surrounds them, and at the same time they are [Page 142] also, of course, shut off from ordinary physical life because they have no physical sense-organs.

The result is that they drift about, lonely, dumb and terrified, unable to communicate with entities on either plane. They cannot realise that if they would only let go their frenzied grasp on matter they would slip, after a few moments of unconsciousness, into the ordinary life of the astral plane. But they cling to their grey world, with their miserable half-consciousness, rather than sink into what they think complete extinction, or even the hell in which they have been taught to believe.

In process of time the etheric shell wears out, and the ordinary course of Nature reasserts itself in spite of their struggles: sometimes in sheer desperation they recklessly let themselves go, preferring even the idea of annihilation to their present existence — with a result overwhelmingly and surprisingly pleasant.

In a few cases, another astral entity may be able to help them by persuading them to let go their hold on what to them is life and sink out of it.

Sometimes an entity may be able to seize upon a baby body, ousting the feeble personality for whom it was intended, or sometimes even to obsess the body of an animal, the fragment of the group-soul which, to an animal, stands in the place of an ego, having a hold on the body less strong than that of an ego. This obsession may be complete or partial. The obsessing [Page 143] entity thus once more gets into touch with the physical plane, sees through the animal's eyes, and feels any pain inflicted upon the animal — in fact, so far as his his own consciousness is concerned, he is the animal for the time being.

A man who thus entangles himself with an animal cannot abandon the animal's body at will, but only gradually and by considerable effort, extending probably over many days. Usually he is set free only at the death of the animal, and even then there remains an astral entanglement to shake off.
...

In the case of a man who, by vicious appetite or otherwise, forms a very strong link with any type of animal, his astral body shows animal characteristics, and may resemble in appearance the animal whose qualities had been encouraged during earth life.
...

Cases of this kind explain, at least partially, the belief often found in Oriental countries, that a man [Page 144] may under certain conditions reincarnate in an animal body.

(Source: The Astral Body by Arthur A.Powell, downloadable as two HTML files at: http://www.theosophical.ca/AstralBodyByPowell-B.htm and http://www.theosophical.ca/AstralBodyByPowell-A.htm)


It seems to me that Theosophy for the In-between and Hinduism for the Ultimate goal of life is a deadly (or rather lively) combination for seeking enlightenment with the knowledge all the way from Here to Eternity.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

Youdhister Maharaja was asked several question by a crane.

"I am a crane. Lord of this pond. Your brothers are dead because they did not heed my warning. Same fate is awaiting you. You answer my questions to avoid death" -- boomed the invisible crane.

Yudhishthira replied. "Please ask the questions. I will try my best to reply".
And one of the questions was what is the most amazing thing?

Reply was
Men are dying everyday. Yet the rest think that they will never die! What more could be stranger than this?

Is death predestine? Yes, based on previous karma this life has a certain self-life some say actual number of breath is allocated.

Can death be overcome? I think so but only temporarily, and there are number of example that springs to mind like the example of above narration of the story of Youdhister answering the questions, asked by DharmaRaj in the form of crane. Upon satisfactory answers the four brothers were revived.
Sati Savitri is another classic example also the story of Markand rishi is very interesting.
We know or at least heard of yogis, prolonging their life by controlling the prana. As does the medical science some times at a miserable cost.

But what is death if not just a change of vehicle also very nicely put by Satayji.'what is death if not, a continuation of life? who wants to extend his stay here in this mrityuloka?'
do you know an easyway out?

Jai Shree Krishna

[Znanna]

Namaste MG and Others.

Want to know your time of death, whatever your religion? Try this link:

http://www.deathclock.com/

...and RIP!

There is a belief among Hindus that if you sincerely and devotedly think of God and mentally chant his name just during the last moments of death, you will go to heaven and be relieved of much of your karma. This is easier said than done, though. There is an interesting story on this topic, told by Bhagavan Sri Satya Sai Baba:

There was this wealthy and flourishing trader, who was on his deathbed. In order to be reminded of God at deathtime, he had cleverly named his three sons Gopala, Govinda and Narayana who were all around his deathbed now. The businessman was in pain, though he chanted the names of his sons, 'Gopala, Govinda, Narayana!' Suddenly he remembered that all his three sons were beside him and there was no one to supervise their shop! So he wailed, "If all the three of you, my sons, come here, who will take care of the shop?" Just at the moment he spoke the last word, his soul separated from his body.


I died in 1993 according to that site :D


ZN
/having fun

[sm78]

I think the hindu perspective is what Agnideva has explained in terms of the 3 karmas.

Kriyamana Krama however has much less hand than prarabdha karma in the present life ~ so destiny is a much bigger force, particularly with serious issues like death.

Most of our kriyaman karma effecting current life are whims of our mind ~ "I see a beautiful lady in the streets, say or do something stupid there and then and get slapped in return" that's the nature of kriayamana karma ;)

Most of the serious things we do in this life goes into the bucket of sanchita karma for the next lives...

.... this is the theory I know of...and it appears quite close to my experences in life...

[sm78]

So, sm how does this karma play out in the next life-in lessons needing to be learned or some type of "penalty" ever?

It plays out as the life itself ;) ... without sanchita karma there is no next life.

[saidevo]

Namaste MysticalGypsi.



How is karma related to rebirth? I am not sure I follow what you are saying. Can you give me an example so I can understand.


Karmic seeds always lie embedded in the soul until they are manifested and played out. All normal humans accumulate both good and bad karma over many births that lie in store in three kinds, viz. sanchita karma, prarabda karma, and kriyamana karma as explained by Agnideva. While the fruits of good karma are enjoyed in the heavenly regions after death, the fruits of bad karma have to be experienced only in the physical life.

When a soul is reborn, its place and parents of birth and the physical body it is attached to are obtained by the good karma. As for the bad karma, it might manifest as bodily deformities or limitations of intellect. This is the reason we see a child who is super intelligent and its co-born as a dunce in the same family. A child is quiet and pious while another is emotional and less matured.

The sanchita karma, both good and bad, manifest as circumstances in life. This accounts for why some people get good opportunities in life, while others just slog on. Some are rich and others poor. It is especially the bad karma that manifests as sufferings in life. Even the diseases we take on have a bearing with karma (check Karma and Diseases by Swami Sivananda at http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/download/karmadisease.htm). Any wicked deeds that we sowed in the early births are reaped as sufferings in subsequent births. In this way, every act or cause is offset with an effect in a grand scale of permutations and combinations under the Universal Law of Karma, and the scenario spreads over several rebirths.

Not only karma. The intellectual and spiritual capabilities are also preserved and manifested in subsequent births. This is the reason we see child prodigies in every walk of life. All the emotional, mental and intellectual propensities are preserved and carried over by the soul; nothing is ever last until it is played out.

[Agnideva]

Namaste MG,

This is a great subject, once again. Saidevo has given you an excellent response. I thought I would also add in my two cents on karma.

Many times, we like to believe that karma is a very individual thing, but when we think about it, karma is truly interconnected. You are born with a certain prarabda, your destiny. Your kids are born with certain prarabda karma; that is their destiny. It is part of your prarabda that you should have kids like the ones you have, and it is your childrens’ prarabda that they should have a mother like you. Your and your childrens' prarabda are interlinked. Yet, not everything that happens in your life is necessarily determined by prarabda. How you raise your children and what you feed them everyday, you determine that, you have free will in these sorts of matters.

Generally, we invoke the name of prarabda only for major things/events in life, not every little thing in your life is predetermined. Karma theory, therefore, cannot be expressly called predestination or fatalism, for it is really neither. Karma exists because free will exists. Only by exercising our free will, do we create kriyamana karma, both positive and negative. Some of the fruits of the kriyamana karma in this life may affect you in this life itself, and others add on to your sanchita karma, and help determine prarabda in future lives.

Prarabda creates the field for you, and determines the rules of the game. How you play the game and the strategy with which you play is up to you. How you play the game in this life will affect the type of field you play on, and the rules of the game in the next life.

OM Shanti,
A.

[saidevo]

Namaste Agnideva and MG.



Only by exercising our free will, do we create kriyamana karma, both positive and negative. Some of the fruits of the kriyamana karma in this life may affect you in this life itself, and others add on to your sanchita karma, and help determine prarabda in future lives.


The notion of free will vis-a-vis destiny is often wrongly obtained. This is a good explanation that relates free will and karma. If there is no free will, how can a human realize the spark of Brahman within him/her at all? Thus free will is the instrument given to know and realize the Self. This is done by combining free will with the mind, intellect and wisdom and controlling the emotional side. If the past karma determines the destiny of the current birth, then free will that creates the present karma, along with the left over past karma determines the destiny of future births.

For an enlightening discussion on this subject, check:
http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/articles/The_Riddle_of_Fate_and_Free.htm

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam to all

Thank you saidevo, it is an enlightening dialogue on the link that you provided.

Jai Shree Krishna

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

My query is, if karma, being result of our free will, then
How and when did we exercise our free will?

Why would anyone choose the perpetual cycle of birth and death? (punarapi jananam punarapi maranam)

gahana karmano gatih

Jai Shree Krishna

[saidevo]

Namaste Ganeshprasad.



My query is, if karma, being result of our free will, then
How and when did we exercise our free will?

Why would anyone choose the perpetual cycle of birth and death? (punarapi jananam punarapi maranam)


I think we exercise our free will and create karma because of ignorance initially. Eventually we get to know the what and why and who of our Self, but even then, knowing is different from realizing. Knowing is easy, realizing is progressively more difficult.

We know the duality of good and bad, but find it is easier to be bad than good in our actions. Sometimes all the goodness we accumulate by persistent efforts is greatly reduced or comes to null just by a single act in the opposite direction. For example, suppose we resolve to be patient and not get angry and follow it up for a few days, then one day, when we suddenly the tendency to be angry gets the better of us, all our resoultion and the efforts vanish, the accumulated patience is shattered, and we find it difficult to start over from what is left of it.

Therefore, the main how and when of exercising our free will, I think, comes by the human propensity to choose the easier than the harder. Once begaun, this habits gets into us and we repeat it even with full knowledge of its spiritual negation. Anything good and hard we choose is only to overcome something already bad and easy in us. We don't initiate with goodness and hard work.

The discipline of the religion is there to regulate us, but in most cases religious ways are only incidental to us.