Secular India

[Believer]

Namaste,

Need some secular Indian Hindus to explain this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Adv9UekLVUM&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlZ6uWnF36I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkiDwUwowrI&feature=relmfu

Pranam.

[McKitty]

Vanakkam,

Hm, are you asking for the opinion of secular people in general (living in secular countries for exemple) or the opinion of secular Hindus specifically ?

Sorry to ask, I couldn't guess from your post ^^'

Aum Namah Shivaya

EDIT: Thank you for your edit =)

[wundermonk]

\begin{Putting on pseudo "secular" Hindu hat}

These are not true Muslims. These people are distorting the Islamic faith because Islam is the religion of peace. Islam does not permit violence.

\end{Removing pseudo "secular" Hindu hat}

Was that a Paki flag that I saw in the first video? If yes, it is beyond disgusting. Please be prepared for the coming 2nd partition of whatever is left of India. Emmigrate out of India, if possible, because India is a lost cause.

[Viraja]

I consider myself a 'Secular' India-born Hindu. By the way, in what context is it being asked here? someone who believes India has to be tolerant of other religions (should they happen to live in India) or someone who thinks it is must that other cultures and religions should be present in INdia to make it rich? -- Funny I belong to neither group - I am secular in the sense I respect all religions - but that is left at that - I do not believe Muslims like that portrayed in the videos should be polluting Indian soil -- but like wonderMunk asks, are they Muslims?

Give poverty + illiteracy + population + oppression from Military, regime rules -what we all will get is not 'religious' population but an ARROGANT MOB.

[wundermonk]

someone who believes India has to be tolerant of other religions (should they happen to live in India)

India is basically the sum of its parts - 1.2 Billion parts make up India. I think what Believer wants to ease out from us is, what to do, if 150 million parts of India do not believe in secularism. Why is secularism only the preserve of Hindus in India? Where is the charity being shown by Indian Muslims? Is it visible to you? If it is not visible to you, how do you even know that 150 million Muslims are not giving tacit approval to actions like those in the OP videos?

What exactly has changed in India since 1947 that will prevent another partition where Muslims get another piece of geography carved out for themselves? No place in India is sacred for them. They do not sing Vande Mataram. They have replaced the Indic scripts (be it Devanagari or Tamil) with Arabic scripts. They bow down to a place 1000s of miles away in the Arabian Desert in the name of worshipping a God five times a day. Where is all of this leading to? Can you infer?


but like wonderMunk asks, are they Muslims?

I guess you did not notice the \begin{} and \end{} tags I used. ;)


Give poverty + illiteracy + population + oppression from Military, regime rules -what we all will get is not 'religious' population but an ARROGANT MOB.

Please do not reduce this incident to the simplistic belief that those people in the mob have no religious motivation but other factors such as poverty, illiteracy, etc.

Hindus are slaughtered in Pakistan/Bangladesh on a daily basis. Do Indian Hindus go on a rampage in India? These Muslims were protesting the alleged killing of Muslims in far away Assam and Burma. Why do not Indian Muslims burn buses when Christian children are killed in Egypt? Why do not Indian Muslims burn buses when Hindus are killed in Pakistan? Is there love for their fellow human only on display when the alleged victim in a far away land happens to be a fellow Muslim? If yes, why is this? Indian Muslims want India to cut off diplomatic ties with Israel? Why do you think this is?

[Viraja]

If it is not visible to you, how do you even know that 150 million Muslims are not giving tacit approval to actions like those in the OP videos?


There cannot be a scientifically proven 'fraction' that can be given as an answer. The same can be asked of Hindus - HOW MANY OF US HINDUS ARE SHAKEN SO MUCH BY THE ACTIONS THAT WE ARE READY TO DO WHAT AN AMERICA DOES TO MUSLIMS? DO YOU KNOW 'US' SECRETLY HAS DATA ON EACH MUSLIM LIVING IN ITS SOIL? Or for practical reasons, how many plain-down-to-earth Hindus are shaken by the violence such as one that happened in Mumbai? The answer is 'we simply are too pre-occupied with ourselves that we do not care'. Similarly, I consider many Muslims are either not concerned but nevertheless unsupportive of the acts because it is not in their means to protest because they will then be killed by their own community -- I am not saying every Muslim belongs to this category, but atleast some are - ofthe 150 million or so - atleast not everyone is bad - is what I am trying to say.


Hindus are slaughtered in Pakistan/Bangladesh on a daily basis. Do Indian Hindus go on a rampage in India? These Muslims were protesting the alleged killing of Muslims in far away Assam and Burma. Why do not Indian Muslims burn buses when Christian children are killed in Egypt? Why do not Indian Muslims burn buses when Hindus are killed in Pakistan? Is there love for their fellow human only on display when the alleged victim in a far away land happens to be a fellow Muslim? If yes, why is this? Indian Muslims want India to cut off diplomatic ties with Israel? Why do you think this is?

I think the culprit is our Central Govt. They literally do not have ANY COURAGE. I think India can bring in Military rule and curb the violent Muslims.

[wundermonk]

There cannot be a scientifically proven 'fraction' that can be given as an answer.

Sure, a scientifically proven fraction cannot be given. But I believe we can infer something based on the answers to the following questions.

Q) What is the status of non-Muslims in Muslim lands practically?
A)______________

Q) What is the status of non-Muslims in Muslim lands as per the Quran?
A)______________

Q)Why do you think partition happened in Indian in 1947?
A)______________

Q)What has changed in Indian since 1947 that we can confidently state that there will never be another partition?
A)______________



Similarly, I consider many Muslims are either not concerned but nevertheless unsupportive of the acts because it is not in their means to protest because they will then be killed by their own community -- I am not saying every Muslim belongs to this category, but atleast some are - ofthe 150 million or so - atleast not everyone is bad - is what I am trying to say.

Why do you think Muslims are so violent so as to kill anyone who disagrees with them? If, as you admit, Muslims kill those who disagree with them, how should non-Muslims handle this virulence amongst Muslims? What are the options we have?


I think the culprit is our Central Govt. They literally do not have ANY COURAGE. I think India can bring in Military rule and curb the violent Muslims.

I agree with the first two sentences. But the last sentence requires more clarification. What if the violence in Muslims is directly derived from the Quran. What to do then?

[Viraja]

I am running extremely short of time - I am on vacation for next 3 days - so I can't answer elaboratively.

All I can say is, "How do you judge violence in Muslims is a direct product of Quran?". (For that matter, I believe what is said in Quran is not even its exact meaning....) (No, I haven't read the Quran but read few verses of it like how Prophet Mohammed was transported to Mecca where he realized his own self and met various angels that Allah sent before him... and I believe he truly is a messenger of GOD as there are many good folks in the religion too).

[wundermonk]

No, I haven't read the Quran

You should before attempting to defend Islam on HDF.


but read few verses of it like how Prophet Mohammed was transported to Mecca where he realized his own self and met various angels that Allah sent before him... and I believe he truly is a messenger of GOD as there are many good folks in the religion too).

Wait a minute. The boldened part does not gel well with what you said earlier:


I consider myself a 'Secular' India-born Hindu.

Hinduism does not have a concept of messengerhood.

I know you have not read the Quran, but pardon me, but you seem ignorant of basic Hindu beliefs also.

Forgive me for asking, are you Hindu?

[sanjaya]

\begin{Putting on pseudo "secular" Hindu hat}

These are not true Muslims. These people are distorting the Islamic faith because Islam is the religion of peace. Islam does not permit violence.

\end{Removing pseudo "secular" Hindu hat}

Was that a Paki flag that I saw in the first video? If yes, it is beyond disgusting. Please be prepared for the coming 2nd partition of whatever is left of India. Emmigrate out of India, if possible, because India is a lost cause.

Heh, someone's been writing in LaTeX. :)

[Viraja]

You should before attempting to defend Islam on HDF.


Atleast I have Madhwa and Kabir to quote. LOL.

[Omkara]

One must not begin a post with aargh.Nevertheless.....
AARGHHH!!!!!!
It is idiotic to say that there is sone such thing as a secular person or a secular country for that matter.
Secularism means the non-interference of the state in religious affairs and vice versa.

The meaning of secularism begins and ends there.A person cannot be secular.Secularism does not mean 'equal treatment of all religions''.It does not nean that minorities deserce special preference on account of their status.

Secularism only means that a government cannot take religion into account while framing its policy.It means that a governnent treats its citizens as cituzens alone,and treats all cituzens equally.

The ongoing decades long effort at state-sponsored repression of hinduism by the congress party us not secularism.Providing reservations to minorities is nit secularism.Allowing Muslims to live by their own separate laws based on sharia,as India does, us nit secularism. In fact,all of these are manifestly un-secular acts.

Please check the dictionary definition of secularism.A person cannot by definition be secular.

Please do not hide behind kabir and madhwacharya.Kabir was not a hindu and I am not a follower of madhwacharya,though I have the highest respect for him.I had asked you a few basic questions on your beleif that allah is vishnu on another thread,which you could not answer.Do not hold illogical beleifs if you are incapable of defending them.

AARGHHH!!!!!

[Believer]

Namaste,

In the past everyone has blamed the Xitians and muslims for the decline of Hinduism. From now on, its decline will be due to the ignorance of its simple minded adherents. We will crash and burn, and will have no one else to blame but ourselves.

Pranam.

[Omkara]

A very simple argument.If allah=brahman,then it logically follows that tge abrahamic scrptures come from brahman.If so,why do those scriptures constantly portray allah/yahweh flying into a sensless rage when all hindus agree that brahman is sad-chid-ananda

[Shuddhasattva]

A very simple argument.If allah=brahman,then it logically follows that tge abrahamic scrptures come from brahman.If so,why do those scriptures constantly portray allah/yahweh flying into a sensless rage when all hindus agree that brahman is sad-chid-ananda

Namaste

Please note first that I am not in any way defending Islam, or supporting the notion that the Abrahamic god is somehow the same as Brahman, however:

Our scriptures also depict Bhagavan going into a divine rage when confronting demons.

[Omkara]

Yes,but bhagavan does not condemn us and all our descendents to eternal damnation if we disobey him by mistake.Thus,the term I used was 'senseless rage'.

Btw,Aspirant if allah exists,so does satan.Do you beleive that too?Is it compatible with hinduism?

[Believer]

Namaste,

Our scriptures also depict Bhagavan going into a divine rage when confronting demons.
Abrahamic gods going into a divine rage at anyone not accepting him = Bhagwan going into a rage at the demons????

Like I said, we don't need outsiders to destroy us as long as we have high quality thinkers of our own doing it to us. Time to change my religion, I should convert to Islam and stop this senseless bloodshed. After all our Bhagwan is also baaaaaaaad.......

Pranam.

[McKitty]

One must not begin a post with aargh.Nevertheless.....
AARGHHH!!!!!!
It is idiotic to say that there is sone such thing as a secular person or a secular country for that matter.
Secularism means the non-interference of the state in religious affairs and vice versa.

The meaning of secularism begins and ends there.A person cannot be secular.Secularism does not mean 'equal treatment of all religions''.It does not nean that minorities deserce special preference on account of their status.

Secularism only means that a government cannot take religion into account while framing its policy.It means that a governnent treats its citizens as cituzens alone,and treats all cituzens equally.

The ongoing decades long effort at state-sponsored repression of hinduism by the congress party us not secularism.Providing reservations to minorities is nit secularism.Allowing Muslims to live by their own separate laws based on sharia,as India does, us nit secularism. In fact,all of these are manifestly un-secular acts.

Please check the dictionary definition of secularism.A person cannot by definition be secular.



AARGHHH!!!!!

Vanakkam,

Just to say that what you say about secularism is totally true ! And even if I'm not Indian, of what I see from politics and events in India, this is not secularism they are doing. This is weakness.

The same weakness happened in my country, when the politics where disturbed because muslim women wanted to wear burka in their everyday life, at work and at school for exemple. The politics, supposed to be secular (so, fair regarding ALL the citizen and the law regarding of their religion) had a heated debate about allowing muslim women to do that. (even considering problems regarding vision when driving, identity theft/control when wearing a burka...)

When I went to Tunisia years ago and talked about this to a muslim local, he was stunned ! Even in his country the womens where not allowed to wear burka and they never complained, manifested anger in the streets and violence for that !

That what made me thinking "waow, the politics are supposed to be fair to everyone regardless their religion (secularism) but they are weak if anyone from a minority is pointing a finger".

We pretty much ignore when christians make useless noise, but when it comes to muslims, well...Burka, poligamy, everything become a hot political problem to everyone.

The truth is nobody care that it's written in the Kuran that you can live with many wifes, a country when it's forbidden won't allow you. A secularist country when it's forbidden won't allow you, and still won't allow you even if you are a muslim and claim that you are shocked and that you will burn cars.
It won't allow you even if you are an orthodox christian manifesting your anger in the street and curse every politician and everyone not thinking like you to eternal hell.

Well that make sense in my opinion Oo

Even with that we still keep our cultural background alive...Secularism in it's real sense is not a treat, when it's misinterpreted by stupid people and politicians, it become a distorded idiotic weapon and create bad situations...I don't want this for India, this country deserve so much better than chaos...

I'll keep in touch with the news, I hope everything will go well.


Aum Namah Shivaya

[Shuddhasattva]

...And this is where I have misgivings about this focus on Abrahamic nonsense; as important as it is to be vigilant of threats to the continuation of the dharma, which is already so badly damaged by both external action and internal corrosion, this sort of things leads to Hindus attacking other Hindus over petty misunderstandings.

We pray to the same God, our Selves are the same Self, we say Namaste to eachother, hopefully with meaning, and yet... this.

To specifically address your comment Believer:


Abrahamic gods going into a divine rage at anyone not accepting him = Bhagwan going into a rage at the demons????I was specifically not equating the two. I had said so in my disclaimer. Perhaps this was not read?

My point was that Brahman does not always manifest as calmness. Rage and emotionality are part of the mix as well. I was merely pointing this out, that is all.

As Omkara has taken care to explain his qualification of "senseless" I see that my comment was unnecessary - perhaps your attack might also be so?

[Twilightdance]

Our scriptures also depict Bhagavan going into a divine rage when confronting demons.

Isin't this pretty irrelevant to the topic at hand? The OP shows rage of a bunch of dimwitted religious zealots. Bhagvan or even Allah are no where at the scene of the crime.

But to the OP, secularism as defined in dictionary and practiced in some parts of the west won't have problem in condemning this. That's why it want's to put religion out of political business.

Indian secular's also will not have any problem with overlooking & justifying this, since this [Islam and Islamic anti-national rage] is precisely indian-secularism in action.

[wundermonk]

Indian secular's also will not have any problem with overlooking & justifying this, since this [Islam and Islamic anti-national rage] is precisely indian-secularism in action.

This is true.

What are the reasons Indian pseudo ''secular''ists so anti-national and anti-Hindu? Why can not they bring themselves to condemning non-Hindu acts of terror? Why the double standard? Why can not they bring themselves to calling out the bluff on the Adam/Eve story? Why do not they mock mercilessly Abrahamic religions? Is it only when the Abrahamic population in India grows to 51% of the country's population that they will start focusing on Abrahamic religions? Why are many Indian secularists pro-Palestine and anti-Israel? Being secularists, they should be tooth and nail against religion being the basis of nationhood. Which Indian secularist has called into question the very basis of the existence of ''Islamic'' countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, etc.? What are they doing to undo the creation of countries on the basis of religion? Why such deafening silence/inaction on the part of Indian ''secularists''? Why are Indian secularists silent on the Indian government's policy of not allowing non-Muslims from settling down in J&K? If these grievances are not valid, why are they invalid?

Will Indian secularists ever admit that there is a fundamental problem with Islam, and its theology?

Is it possible that they are funded by the Vatican/Mecca to destabilize Hinduism/Indians?

Is it possible that Indian ''secularists'' are secretly Abrahamic?

[Twilightdance]

I think the moral bankruptcy and resulting intellectual depravity is largely due to twisted education and moral lessons at home. A weak hindu civilization with no sense of nation just makes this moral bankruptcy very easy to get away with.

As for our muslim brothers, I have always argued that India is better than their fabled holy land of mecca. You have all the perks of sharia & more [keep 4 wives, grab at hindu girls whenever wish to do so, get special privileges jobs & education, tax hindus to sponsor their mecca pilgrimage - madrasa education...basically demand anything & get it by political blackmail]. Yet, you don't have to suffer under the strict rules of morality - you get to keep your arms after stealing as opposed to getting them chopped off, you are not stoned to death for adultery, women are not beheaded for dancing in presence of men etc etc. India is win-win for Muslims. Plus with no policy to check illegal immigration across borders, its not much of hard work too. Get in, get a ration card and enjoy the secularism of India - its better than Sharia at home, I bet ya.

[Shuddhasattva]

I hate to say it, but it seems to me mass deportation to Pakistan (as Bangladesh cannot possibly support more people) will become necessary some point.

[wundermonk]

I hate to say it, but it seems to me mass deportation to Pakistan (as Bangladesh cannot possibly support more people) will become necessary some point.

Yep. I agree.

I was travelling in a train once. In our compartment of 4 seats, there was a Mohammedan couple and another lady (who I later learned was also Mohammedan). This lady gets a call on the phone and then she says (paraphrasing): "Yes. I feel safe. Besides me, there is another Mohammedan couple in this compartment.''

I felt like saying - ''Listen here Muslimah. Let me buy you a one way ticket to Paki Land. You can live as safely as you wish with fellow Mohammedans in the land that was carved out of my country for the likes of you. Then you guys can slaughter one another trying to figure out which one sect of the 73 sects are going to be screwing virgins in heaven while the other 72 rot in hell for eternity.''

[Shuddhasattva]

The sticky issue will be determining who to deport. There are some Indian Muslims I have met who are secular.

"Secular Hindu" might be a bad thing, especially as the secularism is dishonestly promoted for ulterior motives in India, but in my book "Secular Muslim" is a good thing.

These people had little actual knowledge of Islam, maybe some little practice of it - simple praying and the like, and thus were not radicalized - actual knowledge/practice of Islam is inherently radicalizing.

It would be a shame to deport these people from India, who identify far more with India and Indian culture than Islam, and are positive contributors.

Perhaps, perhaps interfaith dialogue between real (lol) spiritual leaders can help calm things and help Muslims to truly live in harmony with the rest of the society - this would be the best solution, but I am doubtful.

[wundermonk]

but in my book "Secular Muslim" is a good thing. These people had little actual knowledge of Islam, maybe some little practice of it - simple praying and the like, and thus were not radicalized - actual knowledge/practice of Islam is inherently radicalizing.

Agreed on the 2nd sentence.

In the first sentence - term "secular Muslim'' is an empty term with no referrent. Secularism requires separation of mosque and state. A Muslim- being an adherent of Islam - considers the mosque itself to be the state.

Islam is incompatible with multiculturalism, democracy and secularism. Either Islam survives or India survives. We cannot have both.

[Shuddhasattva]

I agree with you that Islam itself is incompatible with secularism, but these people are not really Islamic. They're "cultural Muslims." Come from Muslim families, but well-integrated into general society, generally well educated, working good jobs, with Hindu friends, etc.

Should they be deported?

[Twilightdance]

but in my book "Secular Muslim" is a good thing.

Talking about secular muslims, the Khurshid Khan episode which has been in the news of the India is quite curious. Maybe media reports this to demonstrate how good muslims can be, but ironically demonstrate how bad Islam is - since it is one Khurshid Khan vs entire Pakistan.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/pakistan/Sacked-law-official-to-continue-serving-Hindu-families-in-Sindh/articleshow/15468793.cms

[wundermonk]

I agree with you that Islam itself is incompatible with secularism, but these people are not really Islamic. They're "cultural Muslims." Come from Muslim families, but well-integrated into general society, generally well educated, working good jobs, with Hindu friends, etc.

Should they be deported?

Such people, if they exist, should definitely not be deported. But I doubt if they exist.

I personally feel this whole thing about, ''majority of Muslims are silent and peaceful. It is only the few radicalized Mohammedans who are the bad apples.'' to be bunkum. If a few people are silent and their voices are never heard, how does one even go about claiming they exist, let alone they are in a majority! It is like saying - the square circle is pink.

The burden of proving that such people exist is on themselves. They should come out of hiding and make their voices heard. They should vehemently oppose the nationhood of Pakistan/Bangladesh and say that the creation of Pakistan/Bangladesh was a blot on humanity's history and work actively towards undoing partition. They should help rebuild every temple that was destroyed by invading Mohammedans and invoke Allah's curse on the Mughals.

[Twilightdance]

Should they be deported?

No, if they are like Khurshid Khan. But the type of Muslim you are talking about mostly enjoy and relish the benefits of living in a secular state, but does nothing so much to even condemn or disown radicalism of Islam. Such secular muslims will quickly switch sides and turn the hindu neighbor to the taliban when the moment comes.

In other words if you value real secularism, you must demonstrate that you value it - not just enjoy its benefit as long as you can.One will not be loosing anything by deporting such muslims - which will be the 99% of the secular muslims you talk about.

Truely secular muslim who have the courage to rise up against the fundamentalism of their religion have been rare and unfortunately have been chastised as fundamentalists, hate mongers etc. I can't think of one such individual in India. There have been few Arab defectors from Islam to the west, but society at large have disowned them as hate mongers.

[Omkara]

I wwanted to create separate thread for this,but might as well post it here.....What do uou think can be done to halt tge ongoing demographic invasion of assam?

And by the way,Happy Birthday Mckitty!

[wundermonk]

What do uou think can be done to halt tge ongoing demographic invasion of assam?

Right policy and right implementation. At present, there is complete policy paralysis on nearly every issue. Therefore there is no implementation on the ground/border.

A realistic policy (addressing more issues than the specific one you have mentioned) given our current situation would be the following:

(1)No special favours to anyone. Everyone within India is its citizen. From the government's POV, the government should not care whether you are a Hindu, Mohammedan, Xian or Buddhist or a Pastafarian. So, no special Hajj subsidy, etc. so that Mohammedans may go improve the Saudi economy. If Allah did not provide you special favours so that you could be born in Saudi Arabia, tough luck Ahmed. My tax payer money is not going to help you go round and round the idol at Kaaba and kiss it. Indian tax payers' money is for use within India.

(2)Uniform civil code. No Mohammedan gets to marry more than one wife.

(3)Any Indian from any part of the country can settle in any state, INCLUDING J&K. Per the constitution, J&K is an integral part of the country. We simply need to act like it IS! No "special" status to J&K.

(4)Protect the borders! When the Indian government does not care about Paki Hindus and is unwilling to grant asylum to legal visitors from Pakistan looking to escape the violence there, why is it allowing Muslims from Bangladesh to get in from the other side?

(5)HANG KASAB NOW!

[Seeker123]

Right policy and right implementation. At present, there is complete policy paralysis on nearly every issue. Therefore there is no implementation on the ground/border.

A realistic policy (addressing more issues than the specific one you have mentioned) given our current situation would be the following:

(1)No special favours to anyone. Everyone within India is its citizen. From the government's POV, the government should not care whether you are a Hindu, Mohammedan, Xian or Buddhist or a Pastafarian. So, no special Hajj subsidy, etc. so that Mohammedans may go improve the Saudi economy. If Allah did not provide you special favours so that you could be born in Saudi Arabia, tough luck Ahmed. My tax payer money is not going to help you go round and round the idol at Kaaba and kiss it. Indian tax payers' money is for use within India.

(2)Uniform civil code. No Mohammedan gets to marry more than one wife.

(3)Any Indian from any part of the country can settle in any state, INCLUDING J&K. Per the constitution, J&K is an integral part of the country. We simply need to act like it IS! No "special" status to J&K.

(4)Protect the borders! When the Indian government does not care about Paki Hindus and is unwilling to grant asylum to legal visitors from Pakistan looking to escape the violence there, why is it allowing Muslims from Bangladesh to get in from the other side?

(5)HANG KASAB NOW!

Good ideas, I will add government control of temples, Ministry of minority affairs and its budget, Article 30 etc. But why is no Indian politician raising these issues? Is it a fear of being branded Hindutvadi? Maybe India needs a Fox News equivalent.

[TatTvamAsi]

India, going down the tube one year at a time.

I am reminded of a story I read as a kid that is so apt for this terrible situation in India.

ShalivAhanA... the king.. as a young man he formed his own "militia" to keep dacoits from attacking merchants between two trading cities....when the king didn't lift a finger to help them.

Likewise, the current govt. of India is not doing anything to protect Hindus.

Hindus must protect themselves. Parties like Shiv Sena etc. are the only reason Mumbai still has some semblance of peace.

No negotiation with Abrahamic scum. India needs a ruler with an iron fist to awaken these idiot Hindus from their phlegmatic stupor.

India needs a good spring cleaning. We tried amputation to get rid of the cancer (created pakistan/bangladesh)..time we try some "deep cleaning" ;)

[Believer]

Namaste,

We tried amputation to get rid of the cancer (created pakistan/bangladesh)..time we try some "deep cleaning" ;)
We tried amputation, but unfortunately retained many of the cancerous cells within India. The unification and radicalization of these cells has caused a resurgence of the original cancer. I am not sure anyone knows how to get rid of it. The best that can be done is to delay its overtaking the motherland and making Bharat disappear.

Pranam.

[sayak83]

Let's be clear. 99% of Muslims in India had been in Indian subcontinent for hundreds of generations and converted in situ from Hinduism and Buddhism. This is certainly true in Kerala, Assam and West Bengal and Bangladesh.

I am sure the medieval Afghan kings of North India (being Afghans...aah you know who they are from current evidence) were utterly barbaric, yet the majority of Muslims in India are and have been Indians (in the subcontinental sense) always and have been a part of our civilization from the beginning. I absolutely disfavor the policy of appeasement run by the secular parties to create vote banks out of Muslims, but I also disfavor any talk of deportation as if they are "foreigners" and "undesirables".

Both economic and religious modernization is the key (along with strong and fair laws valid for all). I am extremely skeptical that anybody will bother though. Its all rhetoric on either side

[ShivaFan]

Namaste Believer

I just now watched the videos about 10 minutes ago. I pulled my car over and am typing this from my cell phone. I will make it short and sweet. I am sorry if I sound sarcastic, but it is sort of American second nature.

The United States has a rap for being anti-Muslim. With the exception of a few liberals, Americans in general will not open their homes and neighborhoods to these type of Muslims, of which frankly there are too many of them to not have suspicions that something is very, very wrong in modern Islam. I say modern with hesitation because obviously this insane attitude is from the 12th Century, but Islam is now politicized and so it is this aspect that has made it so very ugly. Anti-muslim? The majority of Americans now are. It started decades ago, but in truth most Americans never really thought about "Muslim" one way or the other, they didn't even know what the word really meant. But the crazy Islamists certainly, and willfully, did get the attention of Americans, because they started to bomb and kill Americans. At first it was confusing to Americans. But now, it doesn't matter why they attack us, the thing is we don't want crazed banjees like this, we don't want to make the same mistakes we see our "mother" country did and is doing in England, and we don't want neighbors that crazy because we have enough crazies as it is.

And speaking of neighbors, there is now a saying here, a form of sarcastic but polite feet to the ground saying

* Muslims do not make good neighbors.

That means they cannot get along on national levels with any neighboring country without eventually fighting. It means they cannot get along with neighbors in a community without eventually fighting. It means they cannot even get along with other Muslims without fighting and butchering each other because the other Muslim is not the exact same Muslim they are. And it means one Muslim family member cannot get along with another family member without eventually strangling the other. It means a father may kill his daughter.
I know, we all fight with each other. We all have crazies. But this, this isn't just that. It's a lot worse.

They flew the flag of Pakistan on India soil. We know perfectly well what that means. That means they are an enemy. The enemy within

I hate violence. But I always carry a pocket knife. And my pocket knife is made in Pakistan. Why? There is a reason. Because they really like a knife. So they make good ones. So if you want a knife, you may as well get a good one.

Om Namah Sivaya

[Omkara]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1O8Weitgfw

[satay]

Thread under review.