The Green Rama and The Blue Rama

[ShivaFan]

Namaste

http://www.salagram.net/Rama.jpg

We know that Krishna is Blue. Though sometimes the description “cloud of the monsoon” is used to describe Lord Krishna’s color. And of course, I believe Krishna is indeed blue.

And we all know of the descriptions of Ram as Blue, and visions and revelations in relation to the “Avatar” concept of Vishnu, but this is not so much an avatar question. Yes Rama is Blue.

But the Rama of my devotion, this Rama is Green. Yes, Rama is Blue. And also Green. Or can that not be possible? To me, the Green Rama is very much an aspect that is personally powerful for me. It has nothing to do with a liking for the color green, though green is also my favorite color, but my favoritism is irrelevant and has nothing to do with this Bhakti . But I am captured by Devi in Her Green aspects, the connection is immediate for me and obvious to me. But whatever the case in regards to Goddess, there is a Blue Rama and also there is revealed to mystics, devotees and artists a Green Rama.

I recall reading a Bengali version of the Ramayana in which Rama was clearly depicted and described as Green skinned. I also recall when I was a child of reading a book on “Hindu Temples of Singapore” in which an oil painting from a small Temple (I recall the temple had, in part, straw grass thatched roofing!) depicting Rama as Green skinned. I was fascinated and very attracted to that painting. I have been to Singapore a few times, but never saw this temple.

In Thailand, where the evidence seems to indicate that the Ramayana was brought by South Indian Brahmins, Rama is almost always depicted as Green skinned. I have seen this in Cambodian depictions as well, clearly an historical marker from South India or perhaps Bengal.

In Tamil texts we read Rama as "Rama Pachai" or Rama the Green, but this may be open to some blending of fabric terms and religious history (Tamil clearly distinguishes between the colors green pachai, and blue neelam. There is also “Elam” which is light color and “Ven” which is darkercolor, thus “Elam Pachai” would be “Light Green”) ...

Below I have uploaded an Oriya (Orissa) painting of Radha-Krishna Lila (see thumb nail). Various aspects of “Avatar” are shown (implying they are all Avatar of Krishna as centric rather than Vishnu), and Rama is clearly shown as Green Rama. Also, I have noticed that Radha-Krishna devotees and Sampradayas of such teaching often depict Ram as Green, though these devotees are often North Indian or Bengali in origin and not South Indian.

Below is shown the Navratri Dasara Kolu Festival, South India, we see the Green Rama:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3166/2907007840_7f650959f2.jpg


http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3148/2906162951_e36b3be75b.jpg

On theThird Day of Durga Navarathri, we see Gayatri Devi Mata worshipped multi-faced as with Blue and Green skinned in South Indian states. Of course, I am a devotee of Devi as being Green in the example Valli Devi the Beloved of Murugan. Of course, whether this is pertinent to Green Rama is to be said or argued, but there is a South Indian mystic (but very real and very electric) element to all of this?

My attachment to the Green Rama will not change. But I am curious as to the response of others in regards to this “hot topic”, which I think is a very interesting and even fun topic as well, in particular any insights from South Indian friends :) ...

Om Namah Sivaya


http://images-mediawiki-sites.thefullwiki.org/09/2/6/0/7860685118528204.jpg

[TTCUSM]

Both Sri Rama and Sri Krishna were black, not blue.
Here's a 14th century painting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RadhaKrishnaUdaipur.JPG) on Wikipedia from Udaipur.

[ShivaFan]

Namaste TTCUSM

Thank you for sharing this! Yes Krishna is Black, I have seen that in Vrindavan. But you know I have also seen Krishna as White, often with the Queen. In Mathura Krishna Murthi as White is seen in temples. But of course you are right, I have Krishna as Black as truth.
Below is one of my favorite paintings, Krishna with the Cowherd boys. They are of every color-
Http://www.krishna.org/images/Krishna/lunch.jpg

Http://www.krishna.org/images/Krishna/lunch.jpg

But what of Green Rama? South Indians, do you have insights?
Om Namah Sivaya

[Jodhaa]

Namaste!

I have seen depictions of Krishna as blue and as black. But usually blue. Perhaps the Green Rama was a way to distinguish him from the Blue Krishna - Although of course the iconography is different, at a quick glance I can see where someone might confuse a Blue Krishna with a Blue Rama or Vishnu.

I have heard that the color blue was related to the sky and therefore the heavens or to celestial bodies and this is one reason Krishna and Vishnu are blue. But I can't rule out the possibility that this logic is based on guesswork. I'd be curious if there is any reason given in the scriptures for the blue color.

However, if we wanted to follow that line of reasoning we'd have to assume that Rama is Green for some other phenomenon in nature. And when I think of the color green I think of the earth. (though it is 70% water);)

I am just speculating really. I'd be interested to know more about the green Rama, since this post was the first I'd heard of him being depicted green.

Thank you for sharing, Shivafan!

Peace!

[Viraja]

I heard recently that Sri Vishnu and his avataras are all dark because they are so to resemble the rain clouds that shower the rain impartial of who or which place they are pouring on. Similarly these gods also shower their mercy impartially and hence they are dark hued like the rain clouds.

I have a Tanjavur painting of Sri Rama whom I pray to everyday and he is the green-blue colour as depicted in the Kolu in the original message of this thread.

Rama is supposed to be Green in colour and there is a very popular 'Ramar colour' known in South India for that hue of Green. (I think he must have been a very light Green hue though).

[TatTvamAsi]

Namaste!

I have seen depictions of Krishna as blue and as black. But usually blue. Perhaps the Green Rama was a way to distinguish him from the Blue Krishna - Although of course the iconography is different, at a quick glance I can see where someone might confuse a Blue Krishna with a Blue Rama or Vishnu.

I have heard that the color blue was related to the sky and therefore the heavens or to celestial bodies and this is one reason Krishna and Vishnu are blue. But I can't rule out the possibility that this logic is based on guesswork. I'd be curious if there is any reason given in the scriptures for the blue color.

However, if we wanted to follow that line of reasoning we'd have to assume that Rama is Green for some other phenomenon in nature. And when I think of the color green I think of the earth. (though it is 70% water);)

I am just speculating really. I'd be interested to know more about the green Rama, since this post was the first I'd heard of him being depicted green.

Thank you for sharing, Shivafan!

Peace!

To what end do you need to speculate? That is an issue that should be addressed by oneself through introspection. It is restlessness of the mind that one needs to constantly analyze, interpret, re-interpret, and speculate on the veracity of various things. Speculation has a time and place. When one wishes to focus one's mind on the divine, "speculation" and other such balderdash is mere noise.

What difference or effect does it have whether there is a blue rAmA or green rAmA? What if it was pink? May be one might speculate rAmA was gay?

Sri Rama and Sri Krishna were DARK-SKINNED. This is ample reason to demolish any notion that caste has to do anything with "race" or skin-color.

[ShriBala]

Deleted....

[philosoraptor]

For what it's worth, the Valmiki Ramayana contains references to Rama being blue and also sometimes to being brown, but it never (at least as far as the text through beginning of Uttara-khanda) says that He is green.

[philosoraptor]

I stand corrected (well, sort of). I checked my notes, and found one shloka which the Gita Press translator did translate as indicating green color of Rama:


padma varNam sukesha antam padma nihshvaasam uttamam |
kadaa drakShyaami raamasya vadanam puShkara iikShaNam || 2-61-8

8. kadaa = when; drakSyaami = shall I see; vadanam = the face; raamasya = of Rama; padma varNam = with the colour of a lotus; sukesha antam = framed with marvelous locks; padma niHshvaasam = of lotus-perfume; puSkara iikSaNam = with eyes resembling lotus-petals; uttamam = and excellent?

"When can I see the face of Rama with the colour of a lotus, framed with marvelous locks of lotus-perfume, with eyes resembling lotus-petals and excellent?"

However, looking at the Sanskrit, I'm not entirely sure why the GP translator thought this was a reference to green color. Aren't lotuses usually some other color besides green? Note that I live in a country in which blooming lotuses are not seen as a general rule - hence my cluelessness on this topic.

[ShivaFan]

Namaste

I have seen Rama murtis and depictions, and visual descriptions as well from teachers, of Ram as golden, or even black like Krsna though this is rare. But ultimately His color does not matter neither to Him nor His devouts, He is an experience and very real presence to countless devotees and seen even today by Saints.

Hanuman is seen as well. Some believe He is living verily today and both here and there and the next only. I do believe also.

Om Namah Sivaya

[philosoraptor]

Well, at the risk of sounding like a contrarian, and perhaps being misjudged as someone who finds fault with non-traditional depictions of Rama's transcendental form, I would say that it does matter, in as much as Rama's beautiful divya-mangala-svarupa is the object of meditation for devotees, and they would want to know the real form of Rama to be meditated on. Indeed, devotees tend to be quite discerning on matters such as these, while impersonalists tend to argue that any form or forms are imaginary mental depictions and thus do not matter.

[ShivaFan]

Namaste Philosopheraptor

I certainly hope you are not thinking I am an impersonalist, if that is the impression I gave it is not my opinion or experience. All I mean by "it really doesn't matter" is if you wish to meditate and have communion with Ram as Blue then that is wonderful, I have communion as Green since that was what I was taught by those who are much more advanced in spiritual communion with Devas and Devi than I, that is the tradition I must follow. If I am mistaken, even if Ram does not forgive me, I know He "forgives" e.g. Loves those other more advanced devotees and it won't matter what anyone or any other human says otherwise it won't change my experiences regarding their truthful communion with such Divine nature and their Bhakti.

But, it seems also logical to me that Ram can, and has, appeared to Saints in other forms from which you may not be familiar with. For example, Kali Ma has appeared before those who I love in the form of a young girl. History does not stop when Rama came to "the last chapter" in the Holy Ramayana. Devas and Devi come, even right now, and tomorrow. Whatever you are, personalist or impersonalist, in one way the Brahman is almost like a golden sheath which the energy of Bhakti can travel across. And in regards to impersonalists, I have nothing against them - it is like the approach to the rose garden. Before I even see the rose tree, I smell the rose. It may be impersonal, but I still say it is the rose in my mind. And when I see the rose tree, I still say it is the rose. And when I hold one rose of the tree (which I never pick) I still say it is the rose. And then what do I do next? I smell deeply into that rose. And when I smell that fragrance deeply, I say "ah Yes! the Rose!" ...

And if the stem of that one rose pricks my finger and blood comes out, I think that it is still the rose.

Which is the rose? Sometimes when I smell deeply that rose, I may even forget what color is that rose.

Om Namah Sivaya

[philosoraptor]

Those are nice thoughts, but I personally prefer to know from shAstra how He looks, what He wants, how He appears before us, etc rather than relying on intuition or assumptions about His preferences.

regards,

[ShivaFan]

Namaste Philosoraptor

I think you are correct on that. By the way, on second thought my use of the words "golden sheath" was probably a mistake in the use of words. I rely on books such as by Jayaram V regarding understanding Brahman.

Om Namah Sivaya

[philosoraptor]

Who is Jayaram V? I only know of an ancient Indian king by that name.

[ShivaFan]

Namaste Philosoraptor

Jayaram V is a famous savant and scholar from India, popular with young Hindus (I am not young). He authored Introduction to Hinduism, and many other famous Vedic Hindu commentaries.

He would laugh at my golden sheath comment. Next to a certain Saiva Guru, I admire him greatly.

Om Namah Sivaya

[ShivaFan]

Namaste

Actually, I should clarify – reading a book such as “Brahman” by Jayaram V is not the same as reading the Ramayana for example. So I can understand criticism when I read commentaries and such, which of course are themselves open to criticism. So I don’t want to be taken in the wrong way by bringing up the subject.

Some people say Jayaram V is a Hindu reformer.

Of course, we all know that Hinduism as it is, Sanatana Dharma, is eternal, as it is we know it is not something to be taken in form and put into a new form (“reform”).

But we do know, that Devas and Devi come in many forms. The Devatas can, and constantly, at least to the vision of the human eye, appear in many rupas or forms, they sometimes even reform themselves right before the vision of a Saint or Yogi, or Mystic or devotee and so on – one minute being an elderly renounced ascetic and the next being Surya Himself before one’s presence. Perhaps the former was only a “disguse” and the latter was aditya and true. Sometimes Lord Hanuman is in two places at once. Of course, these are not examples of “reform” as we might think of today, though it is an interesting consideration.

Hinduism has a history. Just as do the Devas and Devi. And as a Saiva, I am told there are cycles to time, and even yugas which cycle through and play, it is almost like music perhaps, I do not know. I was told one day, I might merge with Shiva. That may happen, right now I am in no rush.

But I think, even though Hinduism and the Devas and Devi have a history, and many unimaginable things to come even in the future, Sanatana Dharma is not something to “reform” by humans, only by Itself. So in that regard, if indeed Jayaram V is a Hindu “reformer”, there will be ample room for criticism. I am not a Hindu reformer, I am just an aspirant. Hinduism as it is, the Bhagavad Gita as it is, the Ramayana as it is, Dharma as it is, is not something humans reform.

But I do admire Jayaram V a lot. Because of two books – his translation of the Bhagavad Gita, and his book “Brahman”. It doesn’t seem he is reforming anything in these books, but simply presenting as it is. As far as Hinduism being reformed, it may reform itself, and not us who reforms it, since it almost has a life of it’s own. It certainly feels that way when you go into a temple. It is as if almost everything is reforming itself, even my body. I was once a very young man. Now I am getting old. Not trying to sound smarty pants, that is one of my biggest problems and that is why I have been told so by others who are way more advanced than myself that I should not try to “create my own Brahman” nor “write my own Ramayana”. I have been told bluntly that my first rule is “do not disturb others”. So probably that is my bad nature which is obvious to others, and I need to listen. I think these two books by Jayaram V help also to make me listen. Because basically I just like a lot of action and adventure, which there is a lot of that in Hinduism. I am still on a level where everything is fun for me, never boring, lots of adventure, sort of like Indiana Jones maybe. Except I am slowing down a bit, I hope I don’t slow down too much. The best thing is to be with other devotees. There is always something happening then.

Om Namah Sivaya