This has to stop D:

[McKitty]

Vanakkam everyone !

Don't give me this look ! I had no other idea for the title of the topic, this is the first thing that crossed my mind resulting on seeing some people's post (NOT only on HDF, NO names)

I have nothing against those people personally...But to be honest, I don't understand how they think and how some end up in HDF.

I have seen a sudden rise on some hindu websites, "yoga" and "Sanatana dharma boards" (I say it like this because many of them are pretending to be hindu and are just a bunch of neo-something completely ignorants of the scriptures) of many people claiming they are "Tantra".

Someone claiming this like this, makes me raise an eyebrow. "I am Tantra". First this simple claim show that apparently he/she don't understand the term Tantra, but if this person is a westerner like me I can understand. I am confused with new terms, okay.

Then this person begin to talk about his "Tantra practice". And it gets worse. This is my exact face :

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs2/1131615_o.gif

People thinking that "practicing Tantra" is making wild sex each day of the week because "this is spiritual, you see to create the universe Shiva wildly **** Sakti !" or masturbate thinking about how the Linga is a beautiful penis.

This has to stop.

Why do I care ? Seriously ? Because those people make a bad name of Sanatana Dharma and Hindu people, that's why.
"Hello, I am a Saiva Bhakta !"
"EWW YOU PENIS WORSHIPPER EWW EWW can you help me to get laid ?"

I don't think neither born hindu, neither werterners practicing Sanatana Dharma need this kind of reputation spreading around, especially at the ears of some ignorants and intolerants people that will take a pleasure to make the news by insulting Hindu people and the religion.

Tantra is not a sex religion. Tantra is not disrespecting ShivLing by only seeing a tool of pleasure in it. Tantra is not shaking yourself imagining disgusting things of the Gods.

Tantra is scripture, Tantra is a path that needs initiation, hard sadhanas, pure will and devotion. And STUDY, like everything else.

I don't know why those people choose this. Some seems to deliberatly ignore the scriptures, ignore the real study of Tantra, just to stay in this "religion of sex" thing. Are they unable to cast away the tremendious attachement to desire they created ? Why casting away scriptures and study and just sticking in the "look pal, I am a Tantra, you can't understand."
"But did you rea..."
"You can't understand, I am a Tantra"
"But is being a Tantra for yo..."
"Sex ! Sex ! Shiva banging sakti and stuff ! Sex !"

How can you even discuss about anything with this attitude !

I don't care about the sex life of someone, I juste care when they spread so much idiotic things under the label of Sanatana Dharma ! I care when they remain deaf to everything because they are so superior in their "practice of Tantra" (consisting of sex, sex, sex, masturbation, sex, insulting neo-symbolism of Shiva, sex...)

Seriously. This has to stop.

Sorry for the post, I just had to let it go...I love so much Mahadev and Devi, it pains me to see people putting so much dirty on their holy names ! And it pains me more to see Sanatana Dharma and Hindu people more and more associated with those practices that have absolutely NO spiritual benefits for ANYONE.

Aum Namah Shivaya

[Jodhaa]

Namaste McKitty,

I can appreciate your frustration. While I have never had to deal personally with anyone claiming the lifestyle you describe, I have certainly heard of the type.

I think a few things are happening here:

#1. People like sex - but most people are raised to feel bad about it. So, some of these people are looking for a reason to "justify" enjoying sex. They think if they put a mystical label on sexual activity, it somehow puts it on a pedestal, worthy of turning into an entire lifestyle. Some people are insecure and need every aspect of their life to have some sort of rich, deep meaning. When sometimes, there is no meaning and that's okay.

#2. I think these people's disregard for the scriptures comes from an active desire to remain ignorant. Knowledge would make things "too complicated''. They'd have to actually think about what they were doing and understand it, rather then just say, "Hey, I'm Tantra" and expect that to explain anything to anyone.

This is actually one of the reasons why I have yet to claim allowed ''I am Hindu". I feel as though I have not understood enough of it to claim that. I wouldn't want to give a false impression of Hinduism if the life I am leading is clearly not one of a Hindu. No one is perfect of course, and it will be many lifetimes before I will know even half of what is necessary...but one needs to at least be aware of the wisdom/knowledge gap.

It's good that we have this place to vent;) I hope you feel better!

Peace!

[Omkara]

Perhaps we could have given the fellow a warning and continued trying to explain to him instead of kicking him out.Don't know if we would have ever been successful in drilling sense into him.Another perspective-I think another major cause is that several people quit chrisrianity out of disillusionment and then go around looking for a faith with radically different beleifs and ethos.Many such people has begun to dislike the idea of systematic religion itself,and begin to pick and choose aspects of multiple faiths and throw tham together haphazardly and say-I am spitiual not religious.

[Jodhaa]

Many such people has begun to dislike the idea of systematic religion itself,and begin to pick and choose aspects of multiple faiths and throw them together haphazardly and say-I am spirtual not religious.

This is a good point.

I have a sister who, for a while told people, "I am not religious, but I'm spiritual".

My thought has always been, "What does that even mean?" I have no way of comprehending how one can be connected to God but not connected to God. It smacks of confusion and indecision. It is fine to not know, but call it what it is. When someone asks you, "What do you believe?" And you don't know yet, just say "I don't know." There is no shame in not knowing, but saying, "Oh, I'm spiritual." doesn't mean anything. It answers nothing.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Seriously. This has to stop.


How do you plan to do this ?

praṇām

[satay]

I was wondering about the same.



hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



How do you plan to do this ?

praṇām

[Twilightdance]

I was wondering about the same.

Why stop it, insubstantial things should run out of fashion, hopefully. For anything to continue it needs a dedicated group, and narcissists can hardly be dedicated to anything other than themselves. Once tantra becomes less useful in indulging their narcissism they will move on to other things.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: The best you can do is not participate and point out to others, if that's possible, that it in no way represents any kind of traditional Hinduism. Many Hindus, including some here on HDF, do this when there is a possibility. There have been a few bannings over the years for this.

Aum Namasivaya

[Sahasranama]

There is almost nothing we can do about this and I don't think it is going away either. People misappropriate elements from Hinduism and give their own spin on them. If you try to correct them, they won't listen. Part of it is because people think in this false division between the rationalistic scientific west versus the spiritual other worldly east where everything goes and nothing really matters. The east for most people is a place to escape reality.

Part of it is also the lack of information. When a few centuries ago Indian spirituality became popular in the west, people only had few sources of knowledge. Right from the get-go they took what little information they had let their imagination run wild about the rest. This started with the transcendentalists and later the occultists, the psychoanalysts, the hippies, the new agers etc. These fantasies have become deeply ingrained in the western perspective on tantra and yoga. Self proclaimed experts are making serious dough from people's half baked interest in eastern spirituality. The real deal doesn't do that well on the market place. People specifically demand diluted nonsense and if they don't get it they won't be interested.

People belief what they want to belief. Most westerners (and some modern Indians too) want to believe that tantra is about sense gratification, that yoga is not a religious practice, but an ancient form of psychology and that Jesus is an avatara and if you try to correct them, you are a Hindu fundamentalist.

[McKitty]

Vanakkam,




Part of it is also the lack of information.

I think this is a key part of this phenomenon. Fortunately everything change !
Yesterday when those kind of things became popular, there were very few information available about the subject !
But today, with books and internet, it's easy not to fall into those thinkings...Or is it ?

What I see is that there is not too many informative websites about Sanatana Dharma that appear on google when you search for something, they are well hidden but why ?
There are also very few knowledgable Hindu and westerners that have the hability to take little time and teach others, but don't want to because of variety of personal reasons...
...But these people are the first to spit and complain when a westerner or a born western Hindu say or do something innapropriate and this make the news, and everything blames it on the stupidity of the western world, on how Dharma is insulted, on how Sanatana Dharma is dying because of this, of that...:(

I find this...Sad. Because among those people, there are some that might need this necessary education. Some did find interest in Sanatana Dharma, in Tantra, and only find distorded informations from 40 years ago ! Just search for the ShivLing, how many times I saw something similar as "lol penis" even in supposed informative hindu websites !

I agree a part of them are like TwilightDance said, narcissists, and there's no need to try to knock any sense to them because it would be useless.
But even if it's only a fashion, the fact that those kind of people spread wide s**t about Sanatana Dharma and Tantra in internet, in the news, in books is going to harm born hindu and practicing westerners. And then more news, and more complainings, and more hate....

There's not enough books, there's not enough websites, there's not enough forums like HDF. There's not enough Hindu people and knowledgable westerner in this world to actually talk about Sanatana Dharma, to introduce it once and for all to this portion of misguided people, should they be Hindu or westerner.

Unfortunately I am neither born in India, neither a knowledgable westerner, especially in Tantra. But I often try my best to guide people to good Sanatana Dharma ressources and answer their clichés. I am even thinking about making a little more, like a devotionnal website with informations and links to scriptures.
This may not help the 10000 idiots, but if at last it can interest and convince 2, I would be happy. Because that will be 2 more people speaking about Sanatana Dharma without deforming it and make it disgusting to the western public, and it would maybe make them talk in internet or in the news good about hindu people and Sanatana Dharma ?

Western does not hate Hindu or Sanatana Dharma, a great part of western is misinformed, and nobody is doing anything besides complaining about it...

The ocean was made with small drops ! :) And we have to think we are all those small drops


Aum Namah Shivaya

[satay]

Namaste,



I am even thinking about making a little more, like a devotionnal website with informations and links to scriptures.
This may not help the 10000 idiots, but if at last it can interest and convince 2, I would be happy.

Aum Namah Shivaya

Hdf was created with the same thinking in mind. It would be nice to see other people take on similar initiatives.

[Sahasranama]

Misinformation is only part of the problem. Another part is that people willingly ignore authentic sources of information and actually prefer those resources that suit their own ingrained misconceptions. You could try to teach these people all you want, but they're not going to listen.

There are also so many people who come to Hinduism and ask questions like, "can you teach me how to have a better orgasm" or "do you know where to find more information about tantric intercourse and lasting longer in bed." That is all they are interested in, in these cases teaching them anything about Sanatana Dharma is not worth your while. Better not to waste your breath trying to teach them anything. Let them go to their new age guru who will pick hundreds of dollars out of their pocket. If people have a certain view of Hinduism and look down upon it, we don't owe them any explanation. I am not going to sit down with them to have a conversation.

We shouldn't be complaining that Hindus don't teach anything. Learning is an active process and a large part of it involves self study (svadhyaya). Those who are dedicated will find the proper resources and put their time and effort in studying them. I see many people, mostly Hindus, complaining that the Pundits don't teach anything, but they can't even take half an hour out of their day to study Sanskrit. The Arsha Vidya Gurukula teaches Paninian Sanskrit completely for free online, how many people are regularly reviewing those classes? Most people are waiting for a guru to hold his hand on their heads to impart them all his sacred knowledge.

[MahaHrada]

First of all:
Modern therapeutic sex tantra started with the indian born Guru Bhagavan Rajneesh´s (later called Osho) modern interpretation of tantra, all the important teachers of todays neo tantra are still disciples of Rajneesh.
The idea that Jesus is an Avatara or enlightened being that Islam and Christianity are equally valid path to God or truth, go back to Indian Gurus like Paramahamsa Yogananda, his teacher Lahiri Mahasaya, Vivekananda Ramakrishna, Satya Sai Baba etc.
The focus on bodily postures in Yoga goes back to Indian Gurus like Swami Shivananda, Swami Kuvalayananda, Krishnamacharya etc.
A more philosophical, psychological or sociological approach we can find in new age and neo advaita often shows the influence of teachers like Krishnamurti, Ramana Maharishi Nisargadatta and Aurobindo.
So most of the so called "misinformation" mentioned in this thread has its origin in India and has been taught by Hindus, the impression that these ideas have developed in the west independent of Hindu Gurus is incomplete, western disciples simply repeated what their eastern Gurus have taught them.
Secondly:
Then I ask you to keep in mind that sexuality, literal worship of a living female, or of the female sexual organ and male Linga, use of intoxicants as part of Sadhana is a traditional Hindu practice and not an invention of Bhagavan Rajneesh or Neo Tantra. Compared to some of the Hindu practices the Neo tantra is toned down. So if you think that Neo tantra is disgusting do not further inquire about Hindu tantra.

[Sahasranama]

First of all:
Modern therapeutic sex tantra started with the indian born Guru Bhagavan Rajneesh´s (later called Osho) modern interpretation of tantra, all the important teachers of todays neo tantra are still disciples of Rajneesh.Even before Rajneesh there was interest in tantrik sex from western occultist psychopaths like Aleister Crowley. Rajneesh was just another psychopath who used Tantra for his personal gain.

The idea that Jesus is an Avatara or enlightened being that Islam and Christianity are equally valid path to God or truth, go back to Indian Gurus like Paramahamsa Yogananda, his teacher Lahiri Mahasaya, Vivekananda Ramakrishna, Satya Sai Baba etc.The precursor of universalism had already been developed by the trancendentalists based on their misconceptions on the Bhagavad Gita and Upanishads. Vivekananda also was largely influenced by the theosophic society and other Indian societies that were influenced by protestantism.


A more philosophical, psychological or sociological approach we can find in new age and neo advaita often shows the influence of teachers like Krishnamurti, Ramana Maharishi Nisargadatta and Aurobindo.Even before that Carl Jung started to develop psychological theories on kundalini and chakras, also under the influence of the theosophic society.


The focus on bodily postures in Yoga goes back to Indian Gurus like Swami Shivananda, Swami Kuvalayananda, Krishnamacharya etc.It even goes further back than that, but it was a holistic Hindu tradition. In the west it has become this mishmash of fitness, universalism and capitalism.

So most of the so called "Misinformation" mentioned in this thread has its origin in India and has been taught by Hindus, the impression that these ideas have developed in the west independent of Hindu Gurus is incomplete, western disciples simply repeated what their eastern Gurus have taught them.I wouldn't blame the west alone, it's definitely a joint effort of westerners and some Indian gurus who were under the influence of western ideology. Aurobindo for example grew up in England as an atheist away from his parents, studying classical languages in a catholic school and eating sausages from the local butcher. Some of the early birds in the west who were interested in Hindu teachings, particularly the transcendentalists, did philosophise on their own account without the aid from Indian gurus and their works are still very popular in today's spiritual crowd.


Secondly:
Then I ask you to keep in mind that Sexuality, literal worship of a living female, or of the female sexual organ and male Linga, use of intoxicants as part of Sadhana is a traditional Hindu practice and not an invention of Bhagavan Rajneesh or Neo Tantra. Compared to some of the Hindu practices the Neo tantra is toned down. So if you think that Neo tantra is disgusting do not further inquire about Hindu tantra.The vedas go even further in sexual rites compared to tantra, so personally I am not disgusted by the idea of worshipping a linga/yoni. But I don't take neo tantrik sexuality seriously.

[McKitty]

Then I ask you to keep in mind that sexuality, literal worship of a living female, or of the female sexual organ and male Linga, use of intoxicants as part of Sadhana is a traditional Hindu practice and not an invention of Bhagavan Rajneesh or Neo Tantra. Compared to some of the Hindu practices the Neo tantra is toned down. So if you think that Neo tantra is disgusting do not further inquire about Hindu tantra.

Vanakkam MahaHradaji

I don't have any problem with Tantra, no problem with sex, no problem with drugs. Those last two are the problem of the people concerned with it. For my side, I have a balanced sexual life and never smoke or felt the need of any drugs. Not that I am against it, I just don't care, so it's not a problem. My man is even a Pagan following the Godess cult, so see, I have nothing against those things.

The problem is the ignorants that practice it and distord it in a really disgusting manner. I wonder if you have seen recent posts of certain people on HDF before being deleted, this was a really good exemple of what I am talking about...
[edit: more specifically the topic where porn was meditation and "I feel self love bhakti when I masturbate" was a sadhana. This guy didn't even knew any Tantric form of God or Godesses...]

But please, don't think I am against any Tantra practice of that I find them disgusting. I have great respect for Tantra and it's practionner, but no respect towards some as we have seen here that spread disgusting things about Tantra and Sanatana Dharma.

Aum Namah Shivaya

[Arjuni]

Namasté,

In the past, before I was Hindu or knew much at all about Hinduism, I occasionally encountered people who were seeking respect, validation, or a sense of being empowered, chosen, or special. Some of these folk clung to labels - like "Tantric" - and tried to elevate their esteem by a name or practice. I also met a few atheists or non-spiritual people who sought a better understanding of spirituality by something they could concretely experience - sexual intercourse, through "Tantra" - rather than abstract prayer to an invisible, distant, and illogical God, whom they had been taught (mostly through Christianity) that people "believed in" rather than "experienced." They didn't intend harm, depravity, or perversion.

But whether deliberately, or through blindness about their true intentions, some of these folks said they were "Tantra" in order to feel like they were part of a Special People Club, to create shock value and/or respect. A calm response seemed to "take the wind out of their sails," by removing that "Wow!" reaction to which they were accustomed.
To the few I spoke to directly, I said that I was under the impression Tantra was a series of special practices to worship God, that there was a ton more to it than just "intercourse," and that it wasn't usually something people talked about - or introduced themselves by, anyway.
I then suggested that if sexuality with a spiritual mindset was the goal, they might do much better reading books about strengthening relationships through spiritually-minded sexuality, and/or searching out information about the practice called karezza. (One gentleman did actually find a few of the books I suggested, and realised he'd bitten off far too much in claiming to be "Tantra," so at least it did a bit of good.)

Anyway, I'm just sharing what worked for me in terms of talking to the few people I encountered, in person, who branded themselves as "Tantra" - namely, rerouting them in a direction where I thought their actual interests might be better served. I don't know if it will help anyone, but might serve as a starting point for a useful idea or two.

Indraneela
===
Oṁ Indrāya Namaḥ.
Oṁ Namaḥ Śivāya.

[Twilightdance]

The vedas go even further in sexual rites compared to tantra, so personally I am not disgusted by the idea of worshipping a linga/yoni. But I don't take neo tantrik sexuality seriously.

So what exactly is the disgust here? Tantra is not a homogeneous subject and gives a lot of room for individual desires. Extant tantras range from those which appear like smritis to ones which will might make neo tantrics look like amateurs about sexual orgy. Generally, tantra is an entirely lineage driven and what it is and is not is completely on the Guru and Guru parampara. Many of the neo tantrics have Indian gurus, and that they pick and choose from different tantras is sanctioned by their gurus -or should be.

If anyone has actually studied tantra, they will know there is no other way than pick and choose - because those books are merely samketas intentionally self obscuring and contradictory. But the pick-and-choose is driven by the lineage, generally.

So pick-and-choose is not valid criticism of those who practice tantra. Maybe people who are outsiders and unfamiliar to this system will make such claims. The valid criticism is to ask if one "is or is-not" following a tantric lineage with proper initiation. Initiation is the only need to be a tantrika and sadhana according to guru-upadesha is the only need to achieve siddhi.

I know what my problem is with some of the neo tantrics - and that is narcissism. Most of the need for 'tantra' tag is just the neurotic need to be certified oneself with something sacred. But one can hardly blame westerners or neo tantrics on count of narcissim. Our country is full with saffron clad "psychopaths" with pathological narcissism who address crowds sited only golden thrones OR dispense "shaktipata" simultaneously to thousands of people for a fee. Since I have personal brushes with how fragile of so called "traditional" Guru egos can be, I am pretty much sure blaming just a small fringe group of neo-tantrics will be big injustice.

So, I am not getting what the rest of the noise is all about, except being another generic burst towards the west compounded with little or no familiarity with the topic at hand [a.k.a tantra] which is ironic given topic is criticizing others for something similar.

[wundermonk]

Just to lighten the mood in this thread...

Wisdom from American Pie on Tantra here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O812LeWuReE).

[Equinox]

Just to lighten the mood in this thread...

Wisdom from American Pie on Tantra here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O812LeWuReE).

That was wisdom alright! LOL :laugh:

[Sahasranama]

So what exactly is the disgust here?
I did not express any feelings of disgust, the problem I expressed here was also not about picking and choosing, but with making stuff up. In the west this has started with Aleister Crowley who knew very little of Tantra and started his cult based on the misinformation he obtained from Victorian scholars about Hindu Tantra. What Mahahrada was saying is that all misinformation is spread from Indian gurus alone and this is not a honest representation of facts. You know that I have also criticised Indian saffron clad psychopaths and have even lost my account several times for doing that.

And I am also not denying that narcissism has something to do with the topic at hand. But I think there is some deeper problem ingrained in western spirituality, not just with western tantra, but in general to misrepresent Indian traditions. I am not sure if you are familiar with all the bullshit that goes on in the west in the name of Tantra. I am not saying that it is disgusting or anything, simply that they make this stuff up and give it some Indian name for whatever reasons.

Not every westerner with an Indian guru is necessarily associated with an authentic lineage, Osho for example is not teaching from any authentic lineage. He just made stuff up to attract attention.

[MahaHrada]

Even before Rajneesh there was interest in tantrik sex from western occultist psychopaths like Aleister Crowley. Rajneesh was just another psychopath who used Tantra for his personal gain.

Whether one considers Rajneesh (or Aleister Crowley ) as enlightened Masters or Psychopaths, as authentic or nonauthentic has precious little to do with their influence or non-influence, on Neo-tantra which is what i am concernend with in this posting. I am an eye witness of the rise of the Rajneesh Movement and before he became an important Guru in India and the West one could not find a trace of sexual oriented tantra in the West.



I did not express any feelings of disgust, the problem I expressed here was also not about picking and choosing, but with making stuff up. In the west this has started with Aleister Crowley who knew very little of Tantra and started his cult based on the misinformation he obtained from Victorian scholars about Hindu Tantra. What Mahahrada was saying is that all misinformation is spread from Indian gurus alone and this is not a honest representation of facts.

Aleister Crowley never called himself a tantric and his erotic mysticism was based on the teachings of the "Ordo Templi Orienties" a masonic order whose lineage was traced back to the Order of the Knights Templar and he was inspired by the teachings of the "Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica" (gnostic catholic church) founded by french occultists going back to christian heretics called "spermo gnostics." But later, after his demise, there have been connections between disciples of Crowley like the late Head of the typhonian O.T.O and others to Hindu tantrics.

I did not say that all misinformation spread from indian gurus alone, i said all what was called misinformation in this thread goes back to Hindu teachers.

I mention this because it it is not up to me to decide whether Osho Rajneesh, Vivekananda, Ramakrishna, Shivananda, Satya Sai Baba, Krishnamurti, Aurobindo, Nisargadatta, Papaji, Yogananda, Amma, Ramana Maharishi etc. spread misinformation or truth and it is irrelevant whe all i want to express is that these teachings are no inventions of westerners but these teachings and also the so called "Godman" like Satya Sai Baba are a part of modern Hinduism and not a product of the west, whether you like it or not is a different question.

Clearly these teachings of neo-tantra, universalism, sociological and psychological interpretations of Hinduism are teachings of Hindu Gurus, and it is only natural that the opinions of Gurus are repeated by their followers.

Traditional Tantra and traditional Hinduism by its nature is rarely if at all taught to Westerners, so how can a sane person expect from an average western spiritualist to have knowledge of a subject even an average indian born hindu has no access to?



The precursor of universalism .....

....may still exist even today and may include C.G Jung or Annie Besant or Madame Blavatsky but famous Hindus like Ramakrishna and Vivekananda and Mahatma Gandhi or Dayananda Sarasvati from Arya samaj certainly had a much greater influence besides that Hindu Universalism even predates Colonialism and include teachers like Madhvacharya who also held the opinion that his dvaita Vedanta was closer related to Islam then to advaita and buddhism and acted accordingly. Also Nath Panth Yogis were often allied with the Sufis of the Chistiya silsila and tantric Buddhists, universalism is not a western invention.

[MahaHrada]

Vanakkam MahaHradaji

I don't have any problem with Tantra, no problem with sex, no problem with drugs. Those last two are the problem of the people concerned with it. For my side, I have a balanced sexual life and never smoke or felt the need of any drugs. Not that I am against it, I just don't care, so it's not a problem. My man is even a Pagan following the Godess cult, so see, I have nothing against those things.

The problem is the ignorants that practice it and distord it in a really disgusting manner. I wonder if you have seen recent posts of certain people on HDF before being deleted, this was a really good exemple of what I am talking about...
[edit: more specifically the topic where porn was meditation and "I feel self love bhakti when I masturbate" was a sadhana. This guy didn't even knew any Tantric form of God or Godesses...]

But please, don't think I am against any Tantra practice of that I find them disgusting. I have great respect for Tantra and it's practionner, but no respect towards some as we have seen here that spread disgusting things about Tantra and Sanatana Dharma.

Aum Namah Shivaya

I have not seen these postings so i can only very generally speak about neo tantra. I don´t think ignorance about the meaning of tantra and misuse of tantra is a western problem, sadly india has a much worse problems with so called babas aghors and tantrics.

You are not against Hindu tantric practices because you don´t know anything about the misuses that exist in India, i never heard of any criminal acts like for instance human sacrifices, incest, necrophilia, cannibalism, prostitution, castrations in neo tantra. Compared to such things and things even worse that are happening in India in the name of tantra, masturbation or pron as a way of meditation seems to me almost spotless behaviour.


And it pains me more to see Sanatana Dharma and Hindu people more and more associated with those practices that have absolutely NO spiritual benefits for ANYONE.

That the misuse of the Tantra in the West pales into complete insignificance in comparison to the misuse in India, thats what pains me.

[izi]

Whether one considers Rajneesh (or Aleister Crowley ) as enlightened Masters or Psychopaths, as authentic or nonauthentic has precious little to do with their influence or non-influence, on Neo-tantra which is what i am concernend with in this posting. I am an eye witness of the rise of the Rajneesh Movement and before he became an important Guru in India and the West one could not find a trace of sexual oriented tantra in the West.


The Hevajra Tantra (for example) had been published (widely) in Europe and the Americas well before Rajneesh arrived on the scene. I can point to others as well but this should suffice to quell the notion that Osho/Rajneesh introduced the West to tantra as it is easily looked up through the ISBN records. I know for example there was a lot of information on Tantra available in Berkeley back in the 60's and 70's. I think people were interested in its stance against the traditional - Tantra is ancient, yet it was started as a sort of revolution against dogma.

Whoever you quoted as saying Crowley got his information from other Victorians is also incorrect. Crowley visited India, China and the Himalayas himself and also did many translations himself. He was a man, partly enlightened and partly deluded imo - though not psychopathic - he never killed anyone and was quite popular. No one can determine whether someone is enlightened or not, so it's best to mind our own business.

The OTO is also not a Masonic organization - they have their roots in Hermeticism which derives from the mystery schools of Greek, Egypt and Rome in their heyday.

I am not sure what the OP is going on about except that they are uncomfortable in their own skin, as the body itself usually comes attached to a penis or a vagina. You are never going to stop Sakti's union with Siva....if that's what this is all about. People live in a weird world of ideas and have no concept of energy. They are mostly ignorant of their own bodies. Pretty much everything in life is sexual whether they know it or not. Some people are having really bad sex, at the level of their religion, at the level of their relationships....and definitely at the level of metaphysics.

The most important precept of tantra is the same as the axiom attributed to Hermes Trismegistus in The Emerald Tablet - As Above, So Below. Another important precept of tantra is the following "Every female is Sakti, every male is Siva." Just treat your husband like Siva, and wife like Sakti.

Furthermore the indulgence of tamsic behavior will lead to enlightenment if you are following the proper procedure. One extreme will lead to a boomerang effect in the opposite direction. (The Chinese Sages studied this extensively in their treatise on Bigrammaton, The I Ching) Tantra is about redirection, not being afraid of one's own shadow but properly directing it. The redirection of energy when done appropriately leads to understanding, knowledge, enlightenment.

Tantra is about attaining a proper mental asana towards reality and attaining god consciousness.

[satay]

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