Is this still legitimate ?

[McKitty]

Vanakkam everyone !

I found this article in the news and this left me puzzled with this. I would like to have the views and opinions of others people about this.

Here's the original article (in french sorry)
http://bigbrowser.blog.lemonde.fr/2012/09/04/kill-bill-une-femme-enceinte-decapite-son-violeur-en-turquie/

I will translate the story here:

" A pregnant woman behead her rapist in Tuquie

In Turquie, a 26 year old pregnant woman killed and beheaded her rapist that were raping her since many month before throwing his head in the town's plaza.
When the police arrested her, she told them "This is the head of the one that played with my honor. Everyone would have insulted my childrens. From now, nobody will do that, I washed my honor. The people will talk about my childrens as being the ones of the woman who washed their honor."

The young woman, 5 month pregnant, asked the permission to have an abortion, despite that the Turkish law only authorise this below ten weeks of pregnancy. The woman, who is now a heroine for feminist groups in Turquie, was raped since several months by the same man. He took photos of her naked and treatened her to send them to her parents if she didn't had sex with him.
She finally found a gun, shot ten times at him, several times in his genitals, before beheading him and throwing his head on the main plaza. "


In the comments, this new divide many people. So...I am wondering. This woman had a very hard time in the hands of a disgusting person, but is this legitimate to kill him like this ?

At one side murder is not a good solution, killing someone is something really disgusting and shouldn't be done, especially from humans. Every day, hundred of people are killed by other people, for many reasons and not always legitimate.

At the other side did this woman had any choice ? She choosed to wash her honor and the honor of her childrens, it is a great act of courage to stand against this rapist that have been destroying her for months ! She raised with her power just like Durga Maa raised to kill the Adharmi demons.

So the question is, is her act legitimate ? Is this an act of courage and strenght, or an act of cold murder and should be punished ?

Women's life can be very hard in muslim countries, from a side or another, this story is really sad...

Aum Namah Shivaya

[Jodhaa]

I think - and this is purely my opinion - she had every right to defend herself. Now, was beheading him a little excessive? Yeah - that part was motivated by pure rage. In her culture, where there is limited resources or defense of woman who are sexually assaulted, her choices were to continue to be raped or to defend herself. And really, even then, it's a choice between death and death.

If she had been discovered as being raped, chances are her society would punish her anyway. She would have been raped for months, possibly years and then killed for being "impure". In her mind, this way, she can say she was strong at the end and she stood up for what was right. (In her mind).

Is it wrong to kill? As a gerneral rule, of course. But there are always exceptions because no one should have to live that way. It took a lot of courage for her to stand up to this monster. Her karma will be affected, I think, but not as severely as if she's just mindless killed someone for no reason.

Just my opinion though

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam McKitty: Personally, I think that in this Kali yuga, the societies that behave in such ways are examples of how Low you can go, not how high you can go. When adharma rules, and there is lack of respect for humanity all around, this is what happens. As Hindus, I think we should just sit back and observe, learning lessons of how Not to live. Other that that, I see no reason why any Hindu would focus on it at all.

Aum Namasivaya

[Jodhaa]

Vannakkam McKitty: Personally, I think that in this Kali yuga, the societies that behave in such ways are examples of how Low you can go, not how high you can go. When adharma rules, and there is lack of respect for humanity all around, this is what happens. As Hindus, I think we should just sit back and observe, learning lessons of how Not to live. Other that that, I see no reason why any Hindu would focus on it at all.

Aum Namasivaya

Namaste EM,

I agree with you that we should use this type of incident as an example of how not to behave - although I think anyone with even a moderately functional moral compass can see all the ways in which this situation is unjust and unfortunate. However, to act as though such things don't happen can become dangerous. It is depressing, and there is very little we can do about it on an individual basis, but by the act of ignoring such behavior we run the risk of becoming apathetic. "Oh, well, that just is how it is."

Then again, I can also see that by focusing on it, we can become overwhelmed by it. The very emotional among us (raises hand) get swept up in the injustice of it, shaking our fists at the sky and pulling our hair out. I respect your desire to not let the sadness become your primary focus. I think it's important to acknowledge these things, show compassion and support to the victims (if possible) and do what we can to improve moving forward. (Example; Teaching our sons that this type of behavior is barbaric and unacceptable; allowing our daughters to come forward to get help if they need it.)

This being the Kali Yuga can explain the prevalence of such events, but it does not relieve us of the responsibility we have for our fellow man. Kalki is a long time coming!

peace!

[Viraja]

It sounds barbaric to hear about cutting of the head and so on... but when the woman has actually killed him first using gun, it does not matter what happens next to the body.

I personally don't feel the woman did anything wrong. She must have been through torture at his hands to make her kill him. It isn't wrong to kill someone who assaults so badly including blackmails and threats like the way he has done and I believe this is so even dharmically speaking - in other words, I don't believe she accrued any negative karma!

[McKitty]

Vanakkam,


As Hindus, I think we should just sit back and observe, learning lessons of how Not to live. Other that that, I see no reason why any Hindu would focus on it at all.

Aum Namasivaya

Then why so much hindu create treads to bash Westerners and Muslims ? Not that I care or that it hurt any feeling, just wondering, I don't understand...:(

I do sit back and observe, what else can be done ? I'm not going to pursue and kick every rapist's ass... I am just wondering, seeing the story, is what this woman did is right considering the circumstances and Dharma...? I just wanted to talk about that because this case is rather intriguing and offer a variety of opinion.

abductions, rape and other terrible stuff happen every day in this time, if that would be to happen to you, or me, or your children one day...And if, in this situation, you or me have to face this, is this the right way to react ?

What is acceptable and not acceptable when you are in this kind of position ?

This is the kind of question it raises, I don't mean to bash anyone or anything, just wondering some tough and wanted to share with others to be able to understand more about karma and dharma thanks to the variety of opinions ...

Aum Namah Shivaya

[Jodhaa]

Vanakkam,

abductions, rape and other terrible stuff happen every day in this time, if that would be to happen to you, or me, or your children one day...And if, in this situation, you or me have to face this, is this the right way to react ?

What is acceptable and not acceptable when you are in this kind of position ?

Aum Namah Shivaya

Namaste, Mckitty,

I think because there is so little one can actually do in these situations, the "right thing to do" is very personal. I think it isn't something anyone can know until they find themselves in that situation. So you will get a variety of responses on this because everyone's experience is different. Is is different across culture and gender. As to what I would have done personally? I don't know - there are so many emotions and things to consider. I think her response was appropriate based on her options. So in that sense if it was not the "right" thing to do, is was as right as she was going to get. Sometimes there is no clear answer and those choices are the hardest. That is why it is so difficult for individuals not in the situation to judge.

[Eastern Mind]

This being the Kali Yuga can explain the prevalence of such events, but it does not relieve us of the responsibility we have for our fellow man.
peace!

Vannakkam: Worse things than this go on every day all around the planet. But what can we directly do about it. I can't stop in Turkey and have a one man protest. It would be futile. All I can do is cast my ballot for the most dharmic party I can see, give some to charity, pray for ignorance to dissipate, and make sure I don't become any sort of copycat.

But I can smile at people, especially the ones who come from such societies, just to show them that another happier way exists.

Aum Namasivaya

[Viraja]

Vannakkam: Worse things than this go on every day all around the planet.

The other day when we were discussing about SriLanka, I found a page containing some very cruel images of killings of Tamils... Killings like that goes on everywhere in the world these days... Everyday atleast a dozen get killed out of bombings in Pakistan...

[Jodhaa]

Vannakkam: I can't stop in Turkey and have a one man protest.

Aum Namasivaya


That would certainly make interesting news.;)

To comment on your strategies for making the world a better place: Yes, those are all good things to do, and you are right about the fact that there is very little one can do for tragedies that take place worldwide.

Move though the world with compassion. But you already know this:)

Peace!

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: @McKitty: I'm sorry if I just didn't answer the question. In my world, both in Canada, and in the version of Hinduism I know, stuff like that would rarely, if ever, come up. The men take care of brutal men. We can call the cops if necessary.

I have never personally known anyone that was that nasty, but if it did come up, I'd step in, just as I'd step in in child abuse. In fact, here in Canada a witness HAS TO, by law. I called the proper authorities on more than one occasion when I was a school counsellor and teacher. That's the dharmic course of action, and if you see it first hand, its to step in. I might weigh how big the guy was first though, if it was just me. Otherwise I'd call to others. Only once can I recall physically stepping into a situation. One student with anger management issues was about to swing a hockey stick at another student head, and I got in the way.

Aum Namasivaya

[McKitty]

Vanakkam,

Thank you for sharing your points of view everyone, this is interesting to see the idea of compassion coming up. In my POV, compassion is a very pure and good feeling, because it lead to understanding, selfless service and is a great help in devotion and getting rid of anger inside us.
But...Seeing these kind of things make me wonder, is this really possible to feel compassion toward everyone...? I would have said yes before, but now I am confused.

I am sorry Eastern Mindji if I have annoyed you :( I understand too, in it's nearly the same in europe...When we witness something, we call the cops, or interfere ourselves...However I have seen in Paris that people can be aggressed and women raped in the middle of the crowd, and no one passing by and witnessing that do or say anything.

In China I saw a little girl being ran over by the same car twice, staying for 15minutes motionless in the middle of the street, people passing by ignoring her, cars and scooters running over her before a homeless woman take the wounded child to the hospital.

I have seen a children beaten, his arm broken, in front of all his friends and teacher. Nobody did anything. The guy wasn't even punished "you know", said the teacher, "violence is a part of their world now!"

When I got attacked by a big stray dog, fighting for my life and the life of my own beloved dog, you know what the policemen said to me ? "If the dog is wounded we will sue you, I hope you didn't do anything to this dog !"
I was covered in blood and mud, crying, and this is what they say ?

People prefer to stay away, to step aside...But...If I had to wait for someone to help, for the policemen to fight, I would've been dead now.
And I realize, if at that moment I had a knife, I would have stabbed the dog without hesitation, even knowing how I love and cherish animal life !

This woman was cornered, tortured, humiliated, the man maybe planned to kill her in the end...If she stayed in her fate, waiting for someone to help her, she would have been dead by now too...

I am not promoting self-justice, with our limited human mind, this lead to bad things. I am just...Puzzled and sad that people just "sit and watch".

Some people like you are kind, really. If you are among the ones that can't stand watching bad things happen, then you really have a kind heart.


The hundreds of people killed by bombs in Pakistan don't have any choice in their sad fate...But the moment this woman had the weapon in her hands, she had a choice. She had the possibility to act, to do something.
If this possibility is given to us, if we have this choice, then this is not necessarily a bad thing, isn't ?

I don't think, for some people, to just sit saying "yup, kali yuga y'see." is a good thing. Kali yuga here, Kali yuga there...Yeah, so what ? Is this a reason for not doing anything to help or improve something ? I don't understand those people ...


Aum Namah Shivaya

[ShivaFan]

Namaste McKitty

This is an interesting but difficult discussion for me. I see both sides of this argument presented by Purana, by Holy Ones and Saints, and I am torn between both sides of the opinion.

I have a relative on my wife's side of the family who for business reasons travelled to different parts of the world including Germany, Russia, Abu Dhabi, Saudi Kingdom, I lost track but at least one other ME Muslim nation. She is female.

So she had to be very careful as a woman. Especially since she is movie star quality in looks and attraction to men, though she wears traditional attire or conservative business suits. Russia was a particular problem, bad men started to stalk her. I would have killed them.

Hmmmm...

[sankar]

i wont blame her for what she did, but beheading the rapist after killing him is certainly not dharmic, as it was done with uncontrolled emotions.

[Seeker]

Desperate woman in desperate situation took a desperate measure. I feel uneasy in commenting on her action. From SD point of view - he was not slain and she is not the slayer! I dont know whether this will serve as a deterrent to other aggressors. We need to wait and see whether the Turkish justice system tries to find fault at her due to their chauvinistic religious traditions.

I sympathize with her - but mind you there are similar abused children / women / men in several parts of the world. I call that Kaliyuga.