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ShivaFan
05 September 2012, 01:23 AM
Namaste

I drink milk, for example I love goat milk. There is also cow milk.

Some vegans think they a good vegans, and they drink milk. But I am now considering a question... Are milk drinkers true vegans?

I know many in India for example give the cow a good life. And they also milk these cows for the milk to drink. The same with goats.

But that is not necessarily the case in the US.

Some "true vegans" are now saying, if you drink commercial milk then you are supporting slavery (of the cow or goat) and thus you are not a true vegan.

Take this article below:
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Factory-farmed dairy cows endure annual cycles of artificial insemination, mechanized milking for 10 out of 12 months (including 7 months of their 9-month pregnancies), and giving birth. On industrialized dairy facilities, these animals are denied nearly all of their natural behaviors and instincts.

Even if dairy cows are "free range" and "organic" (as if that changes what happens to the male calves) ... slavery and early death is *still* wrong.

http://www.vegetarianveganvillage.org/2011/07/dairy-is-slavery.html

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Are such so-called "vegans" who drink commercial milk actually not much better than Bengali Hindus who eat goat, in that these milk drinking vegans are actually supporting slavery of the cow or goat?

Are these cows shown in the link above, slaves?

Om Namah Sivaya

http://lh3.ggpht.com/-zTRLyiS7SL4/TiVBOs-LfaI/AAAAAAAAA1A/_8aQ1R7XNMQ/s1600-h/image%25255B3%25255D.png

izi
05 September 2012, 05:07 AM
According to the scripture any kind of milk from cows purifies the mind. Ma will do everything for her children even if they are a pain...

Dietarily though, goat milk is much better for you.

One thing about the bull calves is they can use artificial insemination now to reduce male offspring.

Eastern Mind
05 September 2012, 08:13 AM
Vannakkam ShivaFan: By definition, vegans don't use animal products of any kind. So milk is non-vegan. I think a more apt question might be if ahimsa allows for milk drinking, given the current state of affairs in the western dairy industry.

On a side note, I once had a naturopathic doctor tell me , "That's a very poor excuse for milk," in regard to the stuff.

Aum Namasivaya

Jainarayan
05 September 2012, 08:16 AM
Namaste.


Namaste

I drink milk, for example I love goat milk. There is also cow milk.

Some vegans think they a good vegans, and they drink milk. But I am now considering a question... Are milk drinkers true vegans?

True vegans will not use anything that exploits or comes from an animal, whether it harms the animal or not. No wool or any fur or hair from an animal, technically a vegan would not use a real yak tail whisk or fan for puja; no feathers; no honey (it disturbs and potentially harms the bees); no milk, cheese or yogurt. These are forms of exploitation according to vegan belief. However, I see a hypocrisy in consuming farmed plants. When the harvesting is done, small animals and insects become collateral damage.

ShivaFan
05 September 2012, 09:40 AM
Namaste All

These are very much enlightening replies, there is a lot of insight in them. Really, it appears that society now has a better use of words and their meaning in regards to the influence and impact of SD.

For example, from such insights and from the many new websites appearing on the internet, there is a distinction in the overall perspective of what use to only be called "vegetarianism".

The term "vegan" means much more than "vegetarianism". It means a broader commitment, such as EM noted "ahimsa", or as everyone else noted the larger impact to animals in regards to culture and its direct and daily relationships with other animals.

It is really a bigger and broader question than many "vegetarians" may imagine! And as izi says, both cow and goat milk have benefits, so we should consider these gifts the cow and goat are giving us and obtain the gift in a more humane manner! Respecting the life and lifestyle of these wonderful friends! Jainarayan uses the term "avoid collateral damage".

Om Namah Sivaya

Brishti
06 September 2012, 09:16 AM
Namaskar,

How about rice milk or soya milk?

Nowadays, they have soya milk with similar nutritional benefits as cow milk. I think it is a great alternative to cow milk, and some people actually enjoy its taste.

R Gitananda
07 September 2012, 01:49 PM
namaste

I am hearing many good points on this subject.

From a naturalistic perspective mammals give milk for their young until they are weaned.
Only man will continue to drink milk after weaning and not from his own species! So we
don't need milk for our health and there are some health detriments (http://www.pcrm.org/health/diets/vsk/vegetarian-starter-kit-milk) associated with it.

From an ahinsa perspective, Gandhi did not want to take milk because of the ways cows
were treated in India and I am sure that they are treated far worse in the United States.

One animal rights activist said

... when it comes to cruelty, I think there is more cruelty in a glass of milk than a steak.
... after she gives birth, babies are stolen - let me tell you something (it's) the worst scream
I have ever heard and I've heard them all firsthand.Here is the relevant portion of a talk he gave at a school:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4#t=3572s

When animals are commodities they will be treated as slaves. From the way
they are forcefully impregnated in order to maintain milk flow to the way their
calves are heartlessly wrenched from them and sold to beef producers or
raised in veal crates to the way the dairy cattle are slaughtered for beef
after their productivity wanes. All our hallmarks of slavery or something
even worse. I can not in good conscience financially support the misery
and violence that is an integral part of commercial dairy in the United States.

Hari Aum

R Gitananda
07 September 2012, 01:57 PM
namaste

Indeed. I enjoy Silk unsweetened organic soy milk.
Besides rice and soy milk there is also almond milk,
hemp milk, coconut milk, oat milk and hazelnut milk!

There is also delicious ice cream, cheeses and other
non-dairy 'dairy' products derived from some of the above.

Hari Aum



Namaskar,

How about rice milk or soya milk?

Nowadays, they have soya milk with similar nutritional benefits as cow milk. I think it is a great alternative to cow milk, and some people actually enjoy its taste.

Jainarayan
07 September 2012, 02:18 PM
Namaste.

It's actually not the dairy cows in the US that are mistreated. Though "mistreated" is subjective. Dairy cows are a different breed than beef cattle (steers, castrated juvenile males). It's true dairy cows are confined to pens when they are from factory farms, but the pens are kept immaculately clean. It's not in the best interest of the dairy farm to have sick and weak "cash cows", pardon the pun, who cannot produce milk. And then of course there are many family-owned dairy farms where the cows are pasture fed, returning to the pens only for milking and protection, much as they would return to the old wooden barn. It is the beef cattle (which are not used to produce dairy) that are kept in less than optimal conditions, but I think we'll not discuss that, as beef is not an option to begin with.

R Gitananda
07 September 2012, 02:52 PM
Namaste.

... Dairy cows are a different breed than beef cattle (steers, castrated juvenile males). ...

namaste

Yes, only around 19% of the U.S. beef supply comes from dairy cows which have been slaughtered because of lagging milk production.[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dairy_cattle#cite_note-12)

Hari Aum


Female calves (heifers (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/heifer)) with dairy breeding may be kept as replacement cows for the dairy herd. If a replacement cow turns out to be a substandard producer of milk, she then goes to market and can be slaughtered for beef. Male calves can either be used later as a breeding bull or sold and used for veal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veal) or beef (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beef). Dairy farmers usually begin breeding or artificially inseminating heifers around 13 months of age.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dairy_cattle#cite_note-7) A cow's gestation period is approximately nine months.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dairy_cattle#cite_note-8) Newborn calves are removed from their mothers quickly, usually within three days, as the mother/calf bond intensifies over time and delayed separation can cause extreme stress on the calf.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dairy_cattle#cite_note-9) Domestic cows can live to 20 years, however those raised for dairy rarely live that long, as the average cow is removed from the dairy herd around age four and marketed for beef.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dairy_cattle#cite_note-10)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dairy_cattle#cite_note-wallace-11) In 2009, approximately 19% of the US beef supply came from cull (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cull) dairy cows: cows that can no longer be seen as an economic asset to the dairy farm.[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dairy_cattle#cite_note-12) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dairy_cattle

Jainarayan
07 September 2012, 03:05 PM
Yes, they are kept pregnant so as to lactate. I'm not suggesting that it's a paradise for the cows (or the calves), only that dairy cows are treated better than beef cattle, contrary to popular belief. Though as I said, it's all subjective and relative.

We have the same issue with sheep and goats raised for milk and wool. Though they are usually given free pasture. When a sheep is so old that the quality of its wool deteriorates I think we know what happens. What's the answer to all this? True veganism? Maybe.

Viraja
07 September 2012, 03:24 PM
What about Milk abhishekas at temples? Some people do abhisheka at home too.

Eastern Mind
07 September 2012, 04:45 PM
Vannakkam: Temples who are doing it properly use milk from happy cows. Many temples here in North America have no clue where the milk comes from, as they just accept it from the devotees, who often get it from the cheapest large store around. A few individuals will bring organic milk or support an individual cow at some smaller dairy, but its pretty hit and miss.

Still, pure milk is a fairly essential substance, and there is a sacred mixture of the 5 liquids that come from a cow, used in certain rites. It's just like a lot of other things. Over time some of the purity concepts got lost.

Aum Namasivaya

R Gitananda
07 September 2012, 05:29 PM
What about Milk abhishekas at temples? Some people do abhisheka at home too.

namaste

Yes, the sacrifices must be performed and fortunately some Hindus are running special
cow farms which do not mistreat the cows and do not turn the calves into veal.
It may be a bit of an inconvenience to acquire from those sources however.
If all people wanted to do was use milk for sacrifice then there probably
wouldn't be these problems which come with mass production.

Hari Aum

Jainarayan
07 September 2012, 06:44 PM
Namaste.

Our temple is building a goshala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goshala). :)

ShivaFan
08 September 2012, 02:03 AM
Namaste Jainarayan

This is the answer for America. We need to promote the establishment of Goshalas. Protecting and respecting cows as Mother is a form of Patriotism. If goshalas are presented as respecting and giving the cow a good life, as in a goshala, we can satisfy both the cow milk drinkers and the animal rights citizen. And if we extend the love of the patriot for Bhumi soil and earth to love and protection of cow as protecting one's Bhumi then we are also extending patriotism.

But the goat needs help, too. Today I visited a park, and in the park were 100s of goats. WHY? Because Americans are now learning that a GREAT business is to have goats as grasers to eat and thus clean parks and fields of dangerous fire hazards of dry fields that threaten homes. In the US there are now many homes in such areas at risk.

The owner of the goats loved his goats very much, I could see that. And he started a business that is rewarding him well. Economics can also give a path to both wealth and humanity. We only need to learn not to be brainwashed.

Om Namah Sivaya

squidgirl
27 September 2012, 09:34 AM
Namaste,

Oh boy...sometimes it hurts to have your eyes opened...I have a neighbor who has her own few dairy cows and I will have to see if I can get milk for my kids from her. Those cows are royally treated. I have a few hens myself for eggs, and am thankful for them!

orlando
08 December 2012, 02:17 PM
Namaste all.


Namaskar,

How about rice milk or soya milk?

Nowadays, they have soya milk with similar nutritional benefits as cow milk. I think it is a great alternative to cow milk, and some people actually enjoy its taste.

Although I am not vegan(but lacto-vegetarian) I enjoy soya milk with cocoa-cereals almost every morning as breakfast:)


But the goat needs help, too.

We gaudiya-vaishnava should avoid-as much we can-animal milk(so this has not nothing to do with soya milk) that it is not cow milk.
So from my point of view,the best thing to do in order to help goats is stop to drink goat milk at all.

Furthermore the Veda teach us that the cow is our mother...only the cow,not other animals that produce milk:)

Pranama,
Orlando.