Ishvara in Advaita Vedanta?

[Nirguna]

Namaste to All,

I apologize if this has been done before, although I took the effort to search all the nine pages and didn't find anything similar to my question.

Anyway, So Brahman is indescribable-neti neti- not this, not this. When a human finite mind thinks of Brahman, Brahman is projected to Maya (illusion) as the Supreme Lord Ishvara.
It is said that Lord Ishvara is purely spiritual, and transcendent. But how can Ishvara be spiritual when he is unreal when compared to the Ultimate Reality Brahman?
And Ishvara is supposed to be the projection of Ishvara into the material world, how can he be spiritual then?

Thanks for your time.

[devotee]

Namaste Nirguna,


When a human finite mind thinks of Brahman, Brahman is projected to Maya (illusion) as the Supreme Lord Ishvara.

It is OK but the better explanation is that Brahman (the fourth state/Turiya) associated with MAyA is Ishvara and from that two other states i.e. Waking and Dreaming states appear to come into being. Ishvara is one of the most difficult states of Brahman to understand with human brain. It is also stated that when the Brahman, i.e. the Pure Consciousness has thought-waves of Creation, sustenance and annihilation, the three states are apparently projected on the canvas of the fourth.


It is said that Lord Ishvara is purely spiritual, and transcendent. But how can Ishvara be spiritual when he is unreal when compared to the Ultimate Reality Brahman? And Ishvara is supposed to be the projection of Ishvara into the material world, how can he be spiritual then?


Ishvara is unreal Only from the fourth state as the other states are. Though this state is created due to Brahman's association with MAyA, the beauty of this state is that it doesn't perceive the unreality like the other two states and it is Unified Mass of Consciousness with other states. Mind is nothing but Brahman in the two states (Waking and Dreaming states). When all vibrations (absence of desires, anger, fear and cessation of all such thought-waves etc.) of mind stop, Mind turns into Brahman.

What do you mean by purely spiritual ? Where is written that Ishvara is purely spiritual ? Transcendent ... yes. As though it pervades the entire universe and is one of the MAyic (creation of MAyA) states and it is not deluded itself i.e. though universe is within it through and through but It is not a part of the universe.

Your question is not clear. I don't understand what you want to say.

OM

[Nirguna]

Namaste Devotee,

By "spiritual" I mean "non-material". What I mean, is: does Ishvara transcend the limitations of our world? Like time-space for example? If yes, then how can that be, if Ishvara is supposed to be associated with Maya and therefore should not transcend our limitations?
How can Ishvara be "unreal" when compared to the fourth state (turiya), if he transcends the limitations of our world?
Isn't Ishvara supposed to be unlike NirguNa Brahman, manifested?
I've seen some explanations saying that Ishvara is subject to Maya, and at the same time his divine power is Maya.

Also by your last sentence: Do you mean Ishvara pervades the entire universe, and at the same time, unaffected by it? So Ishvara is independent of the universe?

[devotee]

Namaste Nirguna,



By "spiritual" I mean "non-material". What I mean, is: does Ishvara transcend the limitations of our world? Like time-space for example? If yes, then how can that be, if Ishvara is supposed to be associated with Maya and therefore should not transcend our limitations?

Again, we are stuck with words, "material" and "non-material" unless you define what "material" or "non-material" means to you.

Ishvara is purely a unified/undifferentiated Mass of Consciousness and is called as PrjnAnghana in VedAnta (Ref : MAndukya Upanishad). From Ishvara this world is born and the world merges back into Ishvara. However, Ishvara is not a separate entity from World in essence, Ishvara state is non-dual i.e. Ishvara pervades this universe through and through, in and out. There is no point in this universe where He is not.

Does Ishvara transcend the limitations of this world ? Yes. How :

a) He doesn't go into cycles of births and death.
b) Though Ishvara comes into being on association of Brahman with MAyA, He is the master of MAyA. MAyA doesn't bind Ishvara. In a way, when seen from Waking and Dreaming states, the Nirguna Brahman Itself appears as Ishvara.
c) Ishvara is the lord of our Gross (this world while we are alive) and the subtle worlds (when we are dead or before our birth)
d) Ishvara is Omniscient and Omnipotent. He knows all beings of the past, present and the future.
e) Though I have used the word, "Comes into being", there is serious handicap with the limited power of the words while using that term as Ishvara is beginningless, because MAyA and Brahman are beginningless


How can Ishvara be "unreal" when compared to the fourth state (turiya), if he transcends the limitations of our world?
Isn't Ishvara supposed to be unlike NirguNa Brahman, manifested?
I've seen some explanations saying that Ishvara is subject to Maya, and at the same time his divine power is Maya.

The word "unreal" fails to convey the exact description what is required to be stated here. The use of the word "Unreal" has been done only because, Ishvara is apparent reflection of the Nirguna Brahman that is the fourth. The untainted Reality, Nirguna Brahman is avyavhArya and achintya and cannot be perceived by the power of mind ... so mind sees the same Nirguna Brahman as the Ishvara. The essence is Nirguna Brahman and therefore, Ishvara to that effect, strictly speaking from the point of the Absolute (i.e. the fourth state of Brahman/Turiya), is "unreal". It doesn't mean that Ishvara doesn't exist ... it only means that Ishvara is not exactly as He is perceived to be by mind.


Also by your last sentence: Do you mean Ishvara pervades the entire universe, and at the same time, unaffected by it? So Ishvara is independent of the universe?

Yes, He pervades the entire universe inside and outside. I don't know if we should call Him independent of the Universe as He and the Universe cannot be separated.

OM

[kallol]

Let me try to provide an explanation :

The pure Brahman is beyond maya. Maya is something which is recognised by our five senses and also the master sense - Mind.

Just like children get attached to castles out of sand, whereas the adults know that it is all sand; Castle is only temporary. Similarly the normal people get stuck in the temporary shape, sizes, taste, smell, etc.

At lowest level the KG students study through pictures - the subjects which are much more abstarct. Similarly at lowest level, we pray to Iswar - as a symbol of much more abstract Brahman.

The Time, we know, is a phenomenon attached to Maya and that too at lowest level - physical universe. Beyond physical universe, time does not exist.

This lowest form depends on the subtratums like the subtle world / universe and Consciousness for existence.

At next level is the subtle universe - the universe of the minds, dream, etc which cannot be proven by physical world methods. But these exist and this is where we will be even after death also. This world can stay independent of physical bodies and that is why the feeling of "I" never dies; it is permanent. Again this depends on the substratum called Consciousness for the existence.

Below the subtle world / universe is the pure consciousness which is the provider of life and is independent of all.

Now as all matters is out of energy, what is this energy out of ? It is out of the subtle world. It is our minds and the subtle universe, which is the birth place energy. Matter is moved by energy, what moves energy to the point of big bang ? - the subtle universe - our minds ?

What is the birthplace of subtle world / universe ? - it is the consciousness. The layers constantly merges and unmerges, manifests and unmanifests into each other.

Till the subtle world is there there is the mind and thereby the Maya also. Beyond subtle world there is no mind and no maya.

The unmanifested and final form is the turiya state - which is beyond Maya.

It is only for the state of Maya, the Iswara is required to satisfy the five senses and the master sense. Beyond that it is not required or needed.

The truth is beyond senses and beyond comprehension.

[Nirguna]

Namaste Devotee,
Thank you for all your answers.
Thank you Kallol for your explanation also.
I think that you have answered my main question. But from questions seem to arise from your answer.



Again, we are stuck with words, "material" and "non-material" unless you define what "material" or "non-material" means to you.


Material=physical world=the world that we can perceive. Space, time, matter, etc... The universe/world.


Ishvara is purely a unified/undifferentiated Mass of Consciousness and is called as PrjnAnghana in VedAnta (Ref : MAndukya Upanishad). From Ishvara this world is born and the world merges back into Ishvara. However, Ishvara is not a separate entity from World in essence, Ishvara state is non-dual i.e. Ishvara pervades this universe through and through, in and out. There is no point in this universe where He is not.

How is Ishvara's state non-dual?

Ishvara is apparent reflection of the Nirguna Brahman that is the fourth.
Doesn't this contradict your state above? If is Ishvara is reflection of "something", he cannot be the infinite-consciousness-non dual.


Yes, He pervades the entire universe inside and outside. I don't know if we should call Him independent of the Universe as He and the Universe cannot be separated.

What I mean by independent is unaffected. For example, when the world merges back to Ishvara, he himself is untouched.

Okay, here are the facts about Ishvara as I know them.

1. He is the reflection of Brahman upon mAyA, since he cannot be manifestation of Brahman since Brahman is changeless and divisionless.
2. He is transcendent, formless, all knowing, etc...
3. Is in separate of the universe.
4. SaguNa, having infinite attributes.
5. Changeless-timeless
6. His divine "power" is MAyA.
And from what I can understand, since Brahman is indescribable, we talk about Ishvara. So, when we say Brahman, we talk about Ishvara?

[devotee]

Namaste Nirguna,



How is Ishvara's state non-dual?

I don't think a "how" necessarily arises here. Ishvara state is non-dual as it is undifferentiated unified mass of consciousness ... so there can't be duality. Moreover, Ishvara can't be sarvagatah (pervading all everywhere) if it is not non-dual. And let's remember what I told you earlier that both Ishvara and Nirguna Brahman are difficult states to comprehend exactly.


Doesn't this contradict your state above? If is Ishvara is reflection of "something", he cannot be the infinite-consciousness-non dual.

Yes, it seems to contradict but actually it doesn't. The problem in understanding Ishvara's non-dual nature arises due to limitations of human mind to understand how MAyA works and the nature of Brahman when associated with MAyA. See, "something" that is Brahman is Infinite and from that "something" i.e. Ishvara is "born" (apparently and not really ... let's remember that Ishvara too is Mithya like two other states (Waking and Dreaming) of Brahman) which again is infinite and yet the first Infinite remains intact as it was - Ref "PurNam adah, PurNam idam".


So, when we say Brahman, we talk about Ishvara?

If you mean Nirguna Brahman by the term "Brahman", then my answer is "No". Nirguna Brahman cannot be described or comprehended but Ishvara to a great extent can be described and comprehended (not exactly but to a great extent). Nirguna Brahman can be described only by what-it-is-not (Neti-Neti) but that limitation is not there in Ishvara. We already have listed some positively cognizable attributes of Ishvara.

OM

[Nirguna]

Namaste Devotee,


I don't think a "how" necessarily arises here. Ishvara state is non-dual as it is undifferentiated unified mass of consciousness... so there can't be duality
Ishvara is Brahman associated with mAyA, how can his state be non-dual? Ishvara has a "superior" state which is Brahman/Turiya/non-duality. Moreover, isn't Ishvara a personal God, rather than impersonal/attributeless "entity", which contradicts the definition of non-duality.
Non-duality=one without a second. Which again raises the question of how Ishvara can be non-dual, when he is the reflection of a non-dual entity i.e nirguNa Brahman.

Yes, it seems to contradict but actually it doesn't. The problem in understanding Ishvara's non-dual nature arises due to limitations of human mind to understand how MAyA works and the nature of Brahman when associated with MAyA. See, "something" that is Brahman is Infinite and from that "something" i.e. Ishvara is "born" (apparently and not really ... let's remember that Ishvara too is Mithya like two other states (Waking and Dreaming) of Brahman) which again is infinite and yet the first Infinite remains intact as it was - Ref "PurNam adah, PurNam idam".
So it's like saying as aspect of infinity is still infinity?

If you mean Nirguna Brahman by the term "Brahman", then my answer is "No". Nirguna Brahman cannot be described or comprehended but Ishvara to a great extent can be described and comprehended (not exactly but to a great extent). Nirguna Brahman can be described only by what-it-is-not (Neti-Neti) but that limitation is not there in Ishvara. We already have listed some positively cognizable attributes of Ishvara.
What should be meant for the answer to be "Yes"?
Also, Neti neti is not a description, it is negation.
Again, Ishvara can be described to a certain extent, which brings up the question as how can he be non-dual?

[devotee]

Namaste Nirguna,

I would recommend you to read Gaudapad KArikA on MAndukya Upanishad. May be it clarifies your doubts.

OM

[kallol]

I think we are confusing in the term Maya. Question we should ask is whether Maya is real ?

If real, then we have duality and if not there is no duality.

I hope the answer is "Maya is not real". Then the answer is clear. Iswar is only the reflection of Brahman in the mind and not actual Brahman. And being the reflection on the mind, IT can be partially comprehended by the senses we have. Just like the Biswaroopam of Krishna. It is the upper limit of comprehending the Bramham with out limited senses.

The actual reality is beyond comprehension.

[devotee]

I hope the answer is "Maya is not real".

Yes, VedAnta and the Advaitic Gurus have held that MAyA is unreal because it disappears in fourth state of Brahman. MAyA acts with its two powers : Power to cover the Truth (veiling power) and Power to project (things). By its veiling power Brahman is not perceived. With its power to project this world comes into picture. The projection of the world is unreal as it functions solely on the strength of the substratum i.e. Brahman (in fourth state). The world has no independent status of its own. Here the actor is MAyA (prime cause (agent) of this world) and the material cause is Brahman.

However, though MAyA is unreal its locus is Brahman, the sole reality.

OM

[kallol]

Thanks Devotee for adding to what I stated. My answer was towards Nirguna's earlier post.


Ishvara is Brahman associated with mAyA, how can his state be non-dual?