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View Full Version : does anybody here not believe in reincarnation? plus a question about Brahman!



mile83
05 November 2012, 08:42 AM
Hello all, namaste,

do we have Advaitins here who don't really believe reincarnation to be true, I'm asking because I know they exist ^^, I must say I'm having difficulties accepting reincarnation as true because as someone else already told me on another forum (not a neo-advaitin btw) there is only one soul, so what get reincarnated? And at what time if there really is no time.

I apologize if I say complete nonsense, but what would happen to me if reincarnation were not true, when I die? I guess I would merge back to Brahman.

Aren't we all Brahman's dream? And when we die we wake up?

Maybe I'm just looking for like-minded people, and Advaita is really an intriguing philosophy, I haven't been so passionate about something for years, but am really having trouble accepting reincarnation :(

thanks

mile83
09 November 2012, 01:17 PM
I'm sorry, I've just found out that a similiar question has been asked before by member rishabhverma (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/member.php?u=3819).

devotee
10 November 2012, 01:43 AM
Namaste mile83,



do we have Advaitins here who don't really believe reincarnation to be true, I'm asking because I know they exist ^^, I must say I'm having difficulties accepting reincarnation as true because as someone else already told me on another forum (not a neo-advaitin btw) there is only one soul, so what get reincarnated? And at what time if there really is no time.

I apologize if I say complete nonsense, but what would happen to me if reincarnation were not true, when I die? I guess I would merge back to Brahman.

Aren't we all Brahman's dream? And when we die we wake up?


Your questions show that you have very little idea on what Advaita is. In my opinion, it might not be the right path for you. For your questions, the answers are :

a) Advaitins acknowledge the validity of rebirths and re-incarnations otherwise there would be no need to follow this most difficult spiritual path.

b) Re-birth is true ... it has been many instances where people have narrated their past lives correctly. So, there is no point in going after a hypothetical question.

c) The actual phenomenon is not so easily comprehensible by human mind. However, dream is an approximate valid example. It is a difficult subject ... very difficult really and at this stage, I don't think it advisable to enter into this discussion.

Please read thread on this forum patiently so that you have some idea of what it has to offer. I would advise you to go through some of the threads like "Aham BrahmAsmi", "Aham BrahmAsmi-2, "Aham BrahmAsmi-3", "Aham BrahmAsmi-4" "Creation and Advaita", "How does Advaita counter this argument ...", "A few questions on Advaita and their answers" etc.

OM

Jetavan
10 November 2012, 05:58 AM
I'm sure there are a few who no more "believe" in reincarnation than "believe" that the sky is blue.:)

mile83
10 November 2012, 07:14 AM
Namaste mile83,



Your questions show that you have very little idea on what Advaita is. In my opinion, it might not be the right path for you. For your questions, the answers are :

a) Advaitins acknowledge the validity of rebirths and re-incarnations otherwise there would be no need to follow this most difficult spiritual path.

b) Re-birth is true ... it has been many instances where people have narrated their past lives correctly. So, there is no point in going after a hypothetical question.

c) The actual phenomenon is not so easily comprehensible by human mind. However, dream is an approximate valid example. It is a difficult subject ... very difficult really and at this stage, I don't think it advisable to enter into this discussion.

Please read thread on this forum patiently so that you have some idea of what it has to offer. I would advise you to go through some of the threads like "Aham BrahmAsmi", "Aham BrahmAsmi-2, "Aham BrahmAsmi-3", "Aham BrahmAsmi-4" "Creation and Advaita", "How does Advaita counter this argument ...", "A few questions on Advaita and their answers" etc.

OM


Thanks, I guess you're right, as a Westerner it's not easy to accept rebirth. What I didn't really understand before was if there is only Brahman, then what incarnates, but I've found the answer in another thread.

Thank you both

Nirguna
10 November 2012, 12:58 PM
Namaste Mile83,

The ultimate goal of an Advaitin is to be free from the cycle of birth and death (samsara), by self-realization.
Due to our ignorance (avidya) we are stuck in our physical body, which is limited in space, time, entity, overall we see ourselves as limited individuals, and perceive duality in our vyAvahArika plane. We are subject to constant deaths and births, suffering, pain, etc... when we realize ourselves as the infinite Atman-Brahman, unlimited, free from duality, plurality, limitation, birth/death.


Aren't we all Brahman's dream? And when we die we wake up?
This is incorrect. Please don't take the analogies of the Upanishads literally the same. They just make the idea clearer by comparing things that we know to understand the unknown.
Brahman is pure consciousness. In Brahman/Turiya/pAramArthika plane, there are no thoughts, no knower, known, knowledge, because thoughts and mind are finite. And there is no duality, meaning All are One, but it is perceived as dual due to our ignorance because of the power of mAyA by its vikahepa sakti, which lets us mistake the world as real and ourselves as limited individuals.
As for your second question, the answer is obviously a big NO. If that was true, then all the Advaitins would kill themselves, and there is no need to study Advaita Vedanta nor the Upanishads nor Geeta nor Brahma Sutras. We "wake up" (please note that this is an analogy not to be taken literally) by self-realization.

Caltha
10 November 2012, 02:45 PM
Namaste mile83,

I am curious about why you are asking this question. I can think of various reasons about why you might ask this question and different responses from us would be helpful depending on your reasons!

jopmala
10 November 2012, 08:09 PM
Dear mile83

Rebirth is one of the important pillars of Hindu dharma. But before you accept rebirth , you have to accept this creation as real because without real jagat sansar there will be no real karma and rebirth. Rebirth occurs to jiva only due to their karma and if your creation is apparent then how will karma take place. In dream we may do karma but that does not yield any result which may lead to rebirth for enjoying karmaphal. In Gita sri krishna many times advises for niskam karma but my question is who will perform this niskam karma and where . Therefore you have to accept the veda between jiva and brahma and reality of this jagat. If you accept that jiva itself is brahma then there will be no karma. for brahma there is no karma. karma is for jiva only to reach out to the brahma. Bhagaban takes avatara only to teach jiva . Can bhagaban take avatara in an appearent jagat ? Again if jiva is brahma then whom bhagaban will teach ? Therefore rebirth means karmavada and real jagat sansar and jiva brahma veda etc . If getting rid of karma bandhan (for which rebirth is taking place ) is moksha then how that karma will be performed in an dream world ?

Big River
10 November 2012, 08:20 PM
It seems to me that the op is stating that Advaita is appealing to him or her but wants to know if not believing in reincarnation is a deal breaker as far as being accepted by the Advaitin community?

wundermonk
11 November 2012, 12:34 AM
Greetings,


does anybody here not believe in reincarnation?

Reincarnation is one of the basic doctrines of ALL Dharmic faiths.

One basic question to answer is - WHAT reincarnates? The answer can be found in Samkhya Karika - a 4th century AD Samkhya text that consolidated earlier Samkhyan thought.

What reincarnates is the "Sukshma Sarira" - this is an evolute of prakriti and is composed of the "seeds of personality". That is - our personality - is composed of Buddhi (intellect), Ahamkara (ego), Manas (mind) and our sense organs. The subtle form of these forms a covering over pure undifferentiated Purusha. The Purusha does NOT reincarnate, but it is the covering of Sukshma Sarira over Purusha that transmigrates/reincarnates acquiring a gross body.

I have found the following analogy useful. Think of the Purusha/self as a perfect circle. This is its original untainted form. The reason why we are entangled in Samsara is because there is entanglement of this perfect figure with Prakriti. The Sukshma Sarira is a covering around this perfect circle. The subtle Sukshma Sarira has rough edges. That is, it is a piece of a jigsaw puzzle, as it were. Our actions/thoughts/desires shape this jigsaw piece. Sometimes this piece grows, some other times, this piece diminishes. Reincarnation simply means that this jigsaw piece (that has the seeds of all future actions) finds a gross body (the rest of the jigsaw puzzle/scheme of things) where it fits perfectly.

No birth is an accident. It is like clockwork.

Sahasranama
11 November 2012, 02:17 AM
Reincarnation is indeed the cornerstone of all Indian religion and it has its origin in the Vedas where it is called punarmrityu. Buddhism and Jainism have adopted this concept from Hinduism. Some mleccha indologists are trying to establish that this concept is non Vedic, because the Brahmanas call it punarmrity and the Upanishads call it punarjanma. This shows what kind of contrived and illogical theories western academics will cook up to undermine the foundation of Hinduism.

mile83
11 November 2012, 08:34 AM
I appreciate all the answers, why I am asking is because I've read some books mainly by Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj and on another forum someone told me that he didn't really believe in reincarnation, that's why I was confused, I've found some pages that state that Sri Nisargadatta didn't believe in reincarnation in his later years.

Can I ask you guys a last question, I really don't want to start a new thread for it! Do Advaitins believe in supernatural stuff, I mean literally, that there are things that science does not have an answer for, or is Advaita solely based on logic??

I would be very grateful for an answer, thanks again. :)

mile83
11 November 2012, 08:52 AM
I mean I guess they do, how I see it they believe Ishvara is real on the relative plane, but what about ghosts for example? I couldn't really find anything on the Net

kallol
12 November 2012, 02:52 AM
I think you (miles83) need to travel miles to understand the intricrate theories of rebirth.

Soul - what is soul ?

What link does it have with mind ?

What link does mind have with the actions / inactions you go through ?

An atom acquires charges by hitting, rubbing, reacting, etc. Can it stay charged or it pairs with another to form a neutral molecule ? How it moves from one type of body to another type of body ? How long it stays in free and charged state ?

These is one analog but there are many. To know hinduism, you need to study a lot, ask a lot of questions. It is not believing but understanding.

TatTvamAsi
12 November 2012, 03:43 AM
Reincarnation is indeed the cornerstone of all Indian religion and it has its origin in the Vedas where it is called punarmrityu. Buddhism and Jainism have adopted this concept from Hinduism. Some mleccha indologists are trying to establish that this concept is non Vedic, because the Brahmanas call it punarmrity and the Upanishads call it punarjanma. This shows what kind of contrived and illogical theories western academics will cook up to undermine the foundation of Hinduism.

Unbelievable! And now there are some "scholars" who are trying to push the date of the Buddha closer to that of jeebus! :rolleyes: I wonder why! hmm..

Hindus need to organize and combat them point by point.

yajvan
12 November 2012, 10:03 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


I've read some books mainly by Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj and on another forum someone told me that he didn't really believe in reincarnation, .

I am a reader of śrī nisargadatta maharāj and his guru śrī siddharameśvara maharāj; can you point me to the book and chapter where śrī nisargadatta maharāj or his master talk of this ( the non-belief of reincarnation); Note that I am not challanging your post, but would like to read his words on this matter.

praṇām

Adhvagat
12 November 2012, 12:09 PM
I'm currently reading this book, written by one of the few scientists who thoroughly researched reincarnation evidences, Ian Stevenson.

The book is called 'Children Who Remember Previous Lives'. I bought it through kindle: http://www.amazon.com/Children-Remember-Previous-Lives-ebook/dp/B004EYSWWG.

Usually this odd behavior of remembering past lives is displayed by children, but in the west most parents disregard this as nonsense.

It's a very interesting read and a nice introductory piece on the work of this researcher.

Eastern Mind
12 November 2012, 12:20 PM
I'm currently reading this book, written by one of the few scientists who thoroughly researched reincarnation evidences, Ian Stevenson.

The book is called 'Children Who Remember Previous Lives'. I bought it through kindle: http://www.amazon.com/Children-Remember-Previous-Lives-ebook/dp/B004EYSWWG.

Usually this odd behavior of remembering past lives is displayed by children, but in the west most parents disregard this as nonsense.

It's a very interesting read and a nice introductory piece on the work of this researcher.

Vannakkam Pietro ... Nice to read your insightful words again, its been some time. So how do you think (intuit) you came to be in Brazil? It seems odd (to me) that a Hindu soul would want to be born there.

Aum Namasivaya

Jetavan
15 November 2012, 12:01 PM
I appreciate all the answers, why I am asking is because I've read some books mainly by Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj and on another forum someone told me that he didn't really believe in reincarnation, that's why I was confused, I've found some pages that state that Sri Nisargadatta didn't believe in reincarnation in his later years.


From I Am That (http://www.maharajnisargadatta.com/I_am_that_reorganized_12.php):

"Reincarnation implies a reincarnating self. There is no such thing. The bundle of memories and hopes, called the "I", imagines itself existing everlastingly and creates time to accomodate its false eternity. To be, I need no past or future. All experience is born of imagination; I do not imagine, so no birth or death happens to me. Only those who think themselves born can think themselves re-born . All exists in awareness, and awareness neither dies nor is re-born. It is the changeless reality itself." (262)

Nisargadatta is not denying that reincarnation happens -- if you identify yourself with your mind (memories, hopes, dreams, desires) and call that "me" or "I". Since most of us do identify ourselves to be that, then we experience/suffer reincarnation.

However, once you realize that you are Param-Atman, Brahman, Awareness/Being/Bliss Itself, then you realize that you have never been born, and you will never die, and you have never "reincarnated".

Twilightdance
15 November 2012, 12:36 PM
Nisargadatta is not denying that reincarnation happens -- if you identify yourself with your mind (memories, hopes, dreams, desires) and call that "me" or "I". Since most of us do identify ourselves to be that, then we experience/suffer reincarnation.

However, once you realize that you are Param-Atman, Brahman, Awareness/Being/Bliss Itself, then you realize that you have never been born, and you will never die, and you have never "reincarnated".

Nisargadatta seems to be paraphrasing Buddhism in his advaitic language.

Jetavan
15 November 2012, 02:50 PM
Nisargadatta seems to be paraphrasing Buddhism in his advaitic language.

Well, Buddhism and Advaita both agree on the impermanence/ultimate-'unreality' of conditional existence; and the ultimate/utter reality of that which is unborn, unmade, and unconditioned.

mile83
17 November 2012, 01:48 PM
From I Am That (http://www.maharajnisargadatta.com/I_am_that_reorganized_12.php):

"Reincarnation implies a reincarnating self. There is no such thing. The bundle of memories and hopes, called the "I", imagines itself existing everlastingly and creates time to accomodate its false eternity. To be, I need no past or future. All experience is born of imagination; I do not imagine, so no birth or death happens to me. Only those who think themselves born can think themselves re-born . All exists in awareness, and awareness neither dies nor is re-born. It is the changeless reality itself." (262)

Nisargadatta is not denying that reincarnation happens -- if you identify yourself with your mind (memories, hopes, dreams, desires) and call that "me" or "I". Since most of us do identify ourselves to be that, then we experience/suffer reincarnation.

However, once you realize that you are Param-Atman, Brahman, Awareness/Being/Bliss Itself, then you realize that you have never been born, and you will never die, and you have never "reincarnated".


Thank you, yes that's what I meant!

here's an interview with Jean Dunn, where she is asked

Maharaj doesn’t believe in karma and reincarnation?
Correct.

http://itisnotreal.com/jean-dunn-interview.html

Or here, I know this is from Balsekar, but he talks about Nisargadatta, wasn't Balsekar a disciple of Maharaj?

http://prahlad.org/gallery/nisargadatta/books/Nisargadatta%20Maharaj%20-%20ebook%20-%20Pointers%20from%20Nisargadatta%20-%20searchable.pdf
(just search for passages about Rebirth)

or here (search for reincarnation), he talks about the 'chemical'

http://www.theendofseeking.net/PDFs/Nisargadatta%20-%20David%20Godman%20on%20Nisargadatta_interview.pdf