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philosoraptor
07 November 2012, 04:24 PM
Namaste,

Inspired by a similar topic elsewhere, I have decided to post references from shruti identifying nArAyaNa as brahman aka paramAtmA aka the supreme Deity.

A common line of attack used by mleccha missionaries, is that Vedic religion is polytheistic and has no concept of a supreme Deity. This is in line with the work of European indologists who have tried to assert that viShNu in the Rg veda is merely a "minor solar deity." To be sure, there are references to a Vishnu who is not a supreme deity, but there are many shruti references, both direct and indirect, to a supreme deity, and abundant evidence to indicate that this supreme Deity is nArAyaNa (the Lord of Vaikuntha). I will try to post evidence from sources that I have studied which substantiate this. For now, I will avoid using sources that are exclusively used by later traditions or sources which have not been quoted by traditional commentators and whose status is disputed. Thus, this will not by any means be an exhaustive list.

My intention is NOT to to provide an easy reference that precludes reading the original sources. Please do not simply pick fights with others and then copy-cut-paste these quotes for use in flame battles. Rather, I would request that those interested in this subject use this as "where to look" guide and research the original source material themselves. It is always a good idea to know the original context, preferably under the tutelage of a qualified guru.

From my studies to date, it appears that the Vedic religion was quite clear in its endorsement of a supreme deity known by various names, who was responsible for the creation and yet transcended it. Many of the names by which that Supreme Person were known, were also names given to lesser deities who are different from, but connected to and dependent on that Supreme Person. On the other hand, names like "nArAyaNa" can only refer to one specific person, namely the Deity commonly understood by that name, for reasons spelled out by grammarians like pAnini. Thus, while "indra" or "viShnu" could mean different entities based on context, "nArAyaNa" can only refer to one deity and is not used to refer to any other deity besides shrIman nArAyaNa.

philosoraptor
07 November 2012, 04:35 PM
tadviShNoH paramaM padam || (Rgveda 1.22.20, kaThopaniShad 3.9)
(The highest is the abode of Vishnu)

agnirvai devAnAmavamo viShNuH paramaH | tadantarA sarvA devatAH || (aitareya brAhmaNa 1.1)
(Among gods, Agni, the fire-god is the lowest and Vishnu is the highest. In between come all other gods.)

viShNurdevAnAMshreShTaH || (shatapatha brAhmaNa 14.1.1.5)

viShNumukhA vai devAH || (taittirIyasaMhitA 5.2.1.1)
(Gods have Vishnu, indeed, as their leader.)

agnirmukhaM prathamo devatAnAM saNgatAnAmuttamo viShNurAsIt || (taitarrIya brAhmaNa 2.4.3.3)
(In the communion of gods, Agni was the first and Vishnu was the highest.)

(to be continued)

philosoraptor
07 November 2012, 04:59 PM
Note that, for the purposes of this thread, I may also quote from less ideal translations that just happen to be available on the internet. I always recommend looking at the original Sanskrit yourselves.

Bear in mind also that some evidence will be direct, i.e. saying that Vishnu is Supreme Person or Vishnu is Brahman. Others will be less direct, i.e. by describing Vishnu with attributes that can only belong to a Supreme Deity. Both types of evidence will be reviewed.

satay
07 November 2012, 05:06 PM
Namaskar,
Nice thread. You may also recommend Dr. Shanbhag's work 'Vishnu is Brhaman'.

philosoraptor
07 November 2012, 05:08 PM
Rig Veda 1.154.1-6:

viṣṇornu kaṃ vīryāṇi pra vocaṃ yaḥ pārthivāni vimamerajāṃsi |
yo askabhāyaduttaraṃ sadhasthaṃ vicakramāṇastredhorughāyaḥ ||
pra tad viṣṇu stavate vīryeṇa mṛgho na bhīmaḥ kucaro ghiriṣṭhāḥ |
yasyoruṣu triṣu vikramaṇeṣvadhikṣiyanti bhuvanāni viśvā ||
pra viṣṇave śūṣametu manma ghirikṣita urughāyāya vṛṣṇe |
ya idaṃ dīrghaṃ prayataṃ sadhasthameko vimame tribhirit padebhiḥ ||
yasya trī pūrṇā madhunā padānyakṣīyamāṇā svadhayāmadanti |
ya u tridhātu pṛtivīmuta dyāmeko dādhāra bhuvanāni viśvā ||
tadasya priyamabhi pātho aśyāṃ naro yatra devayavo madanti |
urukramasya sa hi bandhuritthā viṣṇoḥ pade parame madhva utsaḥ ||
tā vaṃ vāstūnyuśmasi ghamadhyai yatra ghāvo bhūriśṛṅghāayāsaḥ |
atrāha tadurughāyasya vṛṣṇaḥ paramaṃ padamava bhāti bhūri ||

1. I WILL declare the mighty deeds of Viṣṇu, of him who measured out the earthly regions,
Who propped the highest place of congregation, thrice setting down his footstep, widely striding.
2 For this his mighty deed is Viṣṇu lauded, like some wild beast, dread, prowling, mountain-roaming;
He within whose three wide-extended paces all living creatures have their habitation.
3 Let the hymn lift itself as strength to Viṣṇu, the Bull far-striding, dwelling on the mountains,
Him who alone with triple step hath measured this common dwelling-place, long, far extended.
4 Him whose three places that are filled with sweetness, imperishable, joy as it may list them,
Who verily alone upholds the threefold, the earth, the heaven, and all living creatures.
5 May I attain to that his well-loved mansion where men devoted to the Gods are happy.
For there springs, close akin to the Wide-Strider, the well of meath in Viṣṇu's highest footstep.
6 Fain would we go unto your dwelling-places where there are many-horned and nimble oxen,
For mightily, there, shineth down upon us the widely-striding Bull's sublimest mansion.

Some scholars (N. Shanbhag, S.M. Srinivasa Chari) point out that the references to three strides covering heaven, earth, etc are not a reference to the Vaamana-avataara, but rather to Vishnu's all-pervasiveness. That all beings dwell in His three footsteps, and that He upholds all these worlds - these are all attributes consistent with a supreme deity as opposed to a minor deity with limited influence.

philosoraptor
07 November 2012, 05:12 PM
Rg veda 1.156.1-5

bhavā mitro na śevyo ghṛtāsutirvibhūtadyumna evayā u saprathāḥ |
adhā te viṣṇo viduṣā cidardhya stomo yajńaścarādhyo haviṣmatā ||
yaḥ pūrvyāya vedhase navīyase sumajjānaye viṣṇave dadāśati |
yo jātamasya mahato mahi bravat sedu śravobhiryujyaṃ cidabhyasat ||
tamu stotāraḥ pūrvyaṃ yathā vida ṛtasya gharbhaṃ januṣāpipartana |
āsya jānanto nāma cid vivaktana mahaste viṣṇo sumatiṃ bhajāmahe ||
tamasya rājā varuṇastamaśvinā kratuṃ sacanta mārutasya vedhasaḥ |
dādhāra dakṣamuttamamaharvidaṃ vrajaṃ ca viṣṇuḥ sakhivānaporṇute ||
ā yo vivāya sacathāya daivya indrāya viṣṇuḥ sukṛte sukṛttaraḥ |
vedhā ajinvat triṣadhastha āryaṃ ṛtasya bhāghe yajamānamābhajat ||

1. FAR-SHINING, widely famed, going thy wonted way, fed with the oil, be helpful. Mitra-like, to us.
So, Viṣṇu, e’en the wise must swell thy song of praise, and he who hath oblations pay thee solemn rites.
2 He who brings gifts to him the Ancient and the Last, to Viṣṇu who ordains, together with his Spouse,
Who tells the lofty birth of him the Lofty One, shall verily surpass in glory e’en his peer.
3 Him have ye satisfied, singers, as well as ye know, primeval germ of Order even from his birth.
Ye, knowing e’en his name, have told it forth: may we, Viṣṇu, enjoy the grace of thee the Mighty One.
4 The Sovran Varuṇa and both the Aśvins wait on this the will of him who guides the Marut host.
Viṣṇu hath power supreme and might that finds the day, and with his Friend unbars the stable of the kine.
5 Even he the Heavenly One who came for fellowship, Viṣṇu to Indra, godly to the godlier,
Who Maker, throned in three worlds, helps the Āryan man, and gives the worshipper his share of Holy Law.

Here, it is the attributes of being the most Ancient and the Last, and also of having Supreme Power, are particularly significant.

Omkara
07 November 2012, 10:00 PM
My intention is NOT to to provide an easy reference that precludes reading the original sources. Please do not simply pick fights with others and then copy-cut-paste these quotes for use in flame battles. Rather, I would request that those interested in this subject use this as "where to look" guide and research the original source material themselves. It is always a good idea to know the original context, preferably under the tutelage of a qualified guru.


Sound advice,this.

Carry on the good work.

Om Namo Narayanaya!
Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya!

Omkara
07 November 2012, 10:08 PM
From my studies to date, it appears that the Vedic religion was quite clear in its endorsement of a supreme deity known by various names, who was responsible for the creation and yet transcended it. Many of the names by which that Supreme Person were known, were also names given to lesser deities who are different from, but connected to and dependent on that Supreme Person.


Shruti Pramana for this-
RV 10.82.3 Father who made us, he who, as Disposer, knoweth all races and all things existing Even he alone, the Deities' name-giver,him other beings seek for information.

SanathanaDharma
08 November 2012, 05:05 AM
Dear Friend,

As another member, Omkara, has created an excellent similar thread, it is really noble of you to also start this similar thread....
for those poor souls who are still under the deep influence of this illusion, who although are born as just humans ,try their level best to evaluate Gods, as if they are some kind of reality show judges judging who is the greatest God,
for those poor souls who although have a bare minimum knowledge but still shout on top of their voices regarding who is superior amongst Shiva and Vishnu and even go to the extent of abusing Gods...for such poor souls who have absolutely no idea about ParaBramha other than a few westernized internet resources, for such people these threads should be a real helpful guide to understand the reality in depth....

When one is talking about Sriman Narayana in vedas, one cannot miss talking about the popular Narayana Sukta which is also called as MahaNarayana Upanishad.
This beautiful comprehensive hymn about Sriman Narayana is found in the 10th chapter of the Taitariya Aaranyaka of Krishna Yajur Veda

This is such a beautiful hymn with so much of meaning that in almost every ancient Vishnu temple in India, during the Abhisheka[holy bath],
the Purusha Sukta is recited and continuing with it, the Narayana Sukta is recited....Here is a very humble attempt to understand the overview of this beautiful sukta
as going into details will need much more than a thread....

[very rough translation]
Sri Narayana Suktam

sahasraSIrsham devam viSvAksham viSvaSambhuvam
viSvam nArAyaNam devam aksharam paramam padam

He who is with thousands of heads
He who perceives everywhere in this universe
He who is the caretaker, parent, auspiciousness provider of the Universe
[One can notice the word Shambhu which is used to refer to Shiva is also used here to Narayana]
He is Narayanan who is the Universe itself
Here is the point where it is very clearly mentioned about the Parabramha
Aksharam indicates that which is non perishable or that which is not bound by time...which does not have a boundary defined by time...
Paramam Padam....That highest supreme abode which is beyond this materialistic universe
He who is Narayana is the One who is beyond time and who is that Supreme abode...one can also relate to the "tad vishno paramam padam"...
Within the first two lines itself, the term "Vishwa" or everything, which we roughly call as Universe is used to indicate the point that
Narayana is present everywhere

viSvatah paramam nityam viSvam nArAyaNagum harim
viSvamevedam purushastadviSvamupajIvati

He who is Superior to this universe....look at the beauty of this suktam...the first few lines clearly state that He is vishwa[Universe],
and now it states He is the One who is Superior to this Universe....Vishwatah Param the term Param indicates superior most...
...who else other than Parabramha are we talking about here...
He is eternal...He is that entity without a start or a middle or an end...He is eternal...
its He who is Hari who is pervading as Narayana in all the Universe and beyond...
He is that Purusha who is present in each and everything in this Universe
And because of His presence in this Universe, this Universe even exist...upajivati....
Yet another beautiful line where He, Narayana is that Param who is beyond the universe, is the Universe and is the cause for
the existence of this Universe only because He is in the Universe as Universe and beyond...

patim viSvasyAtmeSvaragum SASvatagum Sivamacyutam |
nArAyaNam mahAj~neyam viSvAtmAnam parAyaNam

He is the master, pati, of this Universe
Atmeshvara...this term indicates so much here....He is the Aatma Eshwara....which practically means "The One"
This is yet another beautiful place where Narayana is refered to as Eeshwara or the Highest Atama...the Paramaathma..The Supreme Atma...
He is Shaashvata or eternal or not bound by time as He is time....
Now comes yet another beautiful part of this suktam where its crystal clear...it cant get more clear....Shivam Achyutam....
This holy Narayana sukta very clearly call Narayana as the Master of this Universe, the Supreme most Aatma, the eternal One
and then it very clearly says He is Shiva the ever auspicious One and
He is Achyuta...Achyuta meaning Aashritanaam chyutih yasmaat naasti saha Achyuta...He who never lets His refugees perish is Achyuta
also He who never ever perishes is also Achyuta....this is such a beautiful hymn which shows He who is Param is Narayana is Shiva....
Narayana is the ultimate Supreme most knowledge
Vishwaatamanam..He is the aatma of this Universe
He is the final destination...

nArAyaNa param brahma tattvam nArAyaNah parah
nArAyaNa paro jyotirAtmA nArAyaNah parah

These are the lines which establish the reality in a very clear manner
Naraayana Param Bramha...it cannot be more direct that this...it cannot be more clearer than this...it simply cannot be more
simpler than this....Narayana is Param Bramha...He is the Ultimate Supreme Bramha.....
Narayana is that greatest Supreme "param Tattva" or priciple or logic
Narayana is that Supreme most jyothi or that infinite inexhaustible supreme energy
Aatma Narayana Parah...Narayana is that Param Aatma..the Ultimate Supreme Aatma...
These two lines give us all the information one needs to understand that we are talking about Param Bramha alone here...

yacca kincit jagatyasmin drSyate SrUyate api vA
antarbahiSca tat sarvam vyApya nArAyaNah sthitah

Such beautiful words of nectar are these...
yacca kinchit...whatever minutest thing in this Universe which is seen or heard
whatever inside or outside that is present including everything and beyond is vyaapya...is completely occupied and is
situated in and as Narayana....These lines indicate famous statement "anor aneeya...mahato maheema" which
actually means He is the sub atomic particle of the minutest atomic particle and He is greater than the greatest
universe....

anantamavyayam kavigum samudrentam viSvaSambhuvam
padmakoSapratIkAsagum hrdayam cApyadhomukham

He is Anantha...which means na antyo yasya sah anantha...He who does not have an end is Anantha...
He is Avyaya...vyaya is to get exhausted or depleted..He is Avyaya..He who cannot get exhausted or depleted...of He is that Supreme source
of infinite energy which can never ever end...
He is the One who has knowledge about everything in this Universe
He whose abode is in the center of a Sumdra or an Ocean...Narayana also means He who dwells in the divine ocean of Naara...
Sri Maha Vishnu is also said to be in the middle of a ksheera sagara..a milky ocean...
He who is the protector of this entire Universe...
This is one beautiful place where the location of heart is mentioned along with His presence inside the heart which indicates
that He is the source of life is described...one can write books on this beautiful hymn...
the heart which is like a padmakosha....like a lotus bud facing downwards..adhomukham...the description of a heart is given here...

adho nishTyA vitastyAm tu nAbhyAmupari tishThati
hrdayam tat vijAnIyAt viSvasyAyatanam mahat

Inside that heart, which is like a downward pointing lotus bud, which is below the collarbone or the neck joint and
above the navel by a few inches,[a measurement taken using ones hand..its approximately the distance
between the end of thumb and the little finger when stretched ], that is the abode of that Vishwa Aatma..the
Universal Supreme Soul...Paramaathma....

These lines so beautifully describe the heart, its location and that He is in everyones heart....

santatagum sirAbhistu lambatyA koSa sannibham
tasyAnte sushiragum sUkshmam tasmin sarvam pratishThitam

Inside the heart, which is enclosed by bones from all the sides, inside a sukshma...a subtle opening at the end of the
downward point, sarvan Prathistitam..He who is everything resides there...one can see the minute details of the location
mentioned very clearly here.....one also has to notice that it very clearly states that He is everywhere and in everyones heart...

tasya madhye mahAnagnir viSvArcir viSvatomukhah
so’agrabhug vibhajan tishThan AhAramajarah kavih

Inside that subtle opening in the heart is that Supreme agni or fire or energy, that which looks in all directions...
that which is eternal in reality...that which is the energy source....it very beautifully also mentioned here that this Maha Agni is the
one which is existing in us as body heat..its this energy which in the form of maha agni also helps us digest food in our stomach..
its this Maha agni which actually sustains us...

Tirya goordhwa madhasa sayee rasmayas tasya santhatha
santApayati svam dehamApAdatalamastakam

The rays of this Maha agni is present through out the body
This is the energy which gives life to us...this maha agni produces heat from head to toe from hand to hand..
in all directions..its this agni which gives our body the temperature...

tasya madhye vahniSikhA aNIryordhvA vyavasthitah
nIlatoyadamadhyasthA vidyullekheva bhAsvarA
nIvAra SUkavat tanvI pItAbhA syAt tanUpamA

In the middle of this source of Maha Agni, inside the heart, is a very thin slender flame, that is pointing upwards, which resembles
a grass blade that is standing upward without flickering,
It is very bright in nature and looks like light or a bright spark in a dark rainy cloud
It is slender like the tip of a grain...it is as tiny as the smallest atomic particle....

tasyAh SikhAyA madhye paramAtmA vyavasthitah
sa brahmA sa Sivah sa Harih sendrah soksharah paramah svarAT

This line very beautifully indicates that He is everything alone....
at the center of that minute atomic flame which is present in the heart, resides Paramaathma....He who is the Supreme most
resides in each and everyones heart....
This part clearly shows that He is everything....the popular phrase "Sah ekah..He is The One...."
Sah Bramha He is Bramha
Sah Shivah He is Shiva
Sah Hari He is Hari
Sah Indra He is Indra
He is everyone the greatest Emperor of this Universe....
He who is Hari, Shiva, Bhramha Indra everyone is in everyone in everyones heart....

rtagum satyam param brahma purusham krshNa pingaLam
Urdhvaretam virUpAksham viSvarUpAya vai namah

He is the one who is all pervasiveness
He is the ultimate truth
He is Param Bramha
He is Purusha
The terms Krishna Pingalam can be interpreted in two ways...
He is the one who is dark[indirectly referring to the beautiful dark blue color of Sri Maha Vishnu]
He is the one who is reddish reddish brown [indirectly referring to the beautiful reddish brown color of Shiva[Taamraya as in Sri Rudra]]
He whose creation energy is always upwards
He whose beautiful eyes are also different...this is with reference to His eyes having all the different forms..of Gods, humans animals, etc...
Vishwaroopaya..He who is the Universal form
I bow to that Sri Narayana

om nArAyaNAya vidmahe vAsudevAya dhImahi
tanno vishNu pracodayAt

Om...I bow to that Sriman Naarayana
I focus my intellect on that Sri Vaasudeva who is present everywhere
Let that Sri Maha Vishnu enlighten me

This also very clearly indicates that Narayana and Vishnu are one and the same....

Anirudh
08 November 2012, 07:54 AM
Namaste philosoraptor,

Thanks for posting this informative thread.

Just by reading the conversation between members in this forum, got to know many unaware facts about Santana Dharma.

Blessed to be born as a Hindu and in Bhaarath.

Jai Maa Bhaarathi!!

:bowdown:

yajvan
08 November 2012, 09:40 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


My intention is NOT to to provide an easy reference that precludes reading the original sources. Please do not simply pick fights with others and then copy-cut-paste these quotes for use in flame battles. Rather, I would request that those interested in this subject use this as "where to look" guide and research the original source material themselves. It is always a good idea to know the original context, preferably under the tutelage of a qualified guru.
I am pleased to read this. As most know I am not a fan of cut 'n paste ( with no additional insight or commentary on the matter), nor is it considered agreeable to the HDF guidelines. As I have mentioned before it gives little insight into the real meaning/value of the śloka-s that are offered.

Cut'n paste is no different then clouds in the summer sky that do not give rain - no crops grow or get nourished.

http://www.robertcampbellphotography.com/Images/Clouds/Clouds4.jpg

praṇām

philosoraptor
08 November 2012, 10:56 AM
This is a repost of an earlier pramANa with some additional context (Rg veda 1.22.16-20):

ato devā avantu no yato viṣṇurvicakrame |
pṛthivyāḥ saptadhāmabhiḥ ||
idaṃ viṣṇurvi cakrame tredhā ni dadhe padam |
samūḷhamasya pāṃsure ||
trīṇi padā vi cakrame viṣṇurghopā adābhyaḥ |
ato dharmāṇi dhārayan ||
viṣṇoḥ karmāṇi paśyata yato vratāni paspaśe |
indrasya yujyaḥ sakhā ||
tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṃ padaṃ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ |
divīva cakṣurātatam ||
tad viprāso vipanyavo jāghṛvāṃsaḥ samindhate |
viṣṇoryat paramaṃ padam ||

16 The Gods be gracious unto us even from the place whence Viṣṇu strode
Through the seven regions of the earth!
17 Through all this world strode Viṣṇu; thrice his foot he planted, and the whole
Was gathered in his footstep's dust.
18 Viṣṇu, the Guardian, he whom none deceiveth, made three steps; thenceforth
Establishing his high decrees.
19 Look ye on Viṣṇu's works, whereby the Friend of Indra, close-allied,
Hath let his holy ways be seen.
20 The princes evermore behold that loftiest place where Viṣṇu is,
Laid as it were an eye in heaven.
21 This, Viṣṇu's station most sublime, the singers, ever vigilant,
Lovers of holy song, light up.

Some notes on the above mantras:
1) They acknowledge the existence of other gods distinct from Vishnu. In other words, "all gods are the same" is contradicted here.
2) Once again, as in many other places in the Rg veda, reference is made to Vishnu's three strides (covering heaven, earth, and everyone) which is a metaphor for His omnipresence.
3) Griffith somewhat akwardly translates "suri" as "prince." Vaishnavas, especially Sri Vaishnavas usually understand this to refer to the "nitya-suris" or in other words, those liberated souls in Vaikuntha who behold Him in person.
4) RV 1.22.20 clearly mentions the "paramam padam" or "supreme abode" of Vishnu - this is a very clear reference to His supremacy, contradicting the European view that Vishnu is merely a minor solar deity.
5) The last two mantras are often heard chanted at pujas to Vishnu during mangala-Arati. They are very beautiful when chanted properly and of very potent philosophical significance.

philosoraptor
08 November 2012, 12:08 PM
Rg veda 3.54.14:

viṣṇuṃ stomāsaḥ purudasmamarkā bhaghasyeva kāriṇo yāmani ghman |
urukramaḥ kakuho yasya pūrvirna mardhanti yuvatayojanitrīḥ ||

14 To Viṣṇu rich in marvels, songs And praises shall go as singers on the road of Bhaga,— The Chieftain of the Mighty Stride, whose Mothers, the many young Dames, never disregard him.

Rg veda 3.55.10:

viṣṇurghopāḥ paramaṃ pāti pāthaḥ priyā dhāmānyamṛtādadhānaḥ |
aghniṣ ṭā viśvā bhuvanāni veda ma... ||

10 Viṣṇu, the guardian, keeps the loftiest station, upholding dear, immortal dwelling-places. Agni knows well all these created beings. Great is the Gods’ supreme and sole dominion.

philosoraptor
08 November 2012, 12:11 PM
Rg veda 7.99.1-7:

paro mātrayā tanvṛ vṛdhāna na te mahitvam anv aśnuvanti |
ubhe te vidma rajasī pṛthivyā viṣṇo deva tvam paramasya vitse ||
na te viṣṇo jāyamāno na jāto deva mahimnaḥ param antam āpa |
ud astabhnā nākam ṛṣvam bṛhantaṃ dādhartha prācīṃ kakubham pṛthivyāḥ ||
irāvatī dhenumatī hi bhūtaṃ sūyavasinī manuṣe daśasyā |
vy astabhnā rodasī viṣṇav ete dādhartha pṛthivīm abhito mayūkhaiḥ ||
uruṃ yajńāya cakrathur ulokaṃ janayantā sūryam uṣāsam aghnim |
dāsasya cid vṛṣaśiprasya māyā jaghnathur narā pṛtanājyeṣu ||
indrāviṣṇū dṛṃhitāḥ śambarasya nava puro navatiṃ ca śnathiṣṭam |
śataṃ varcinaḥ sahasraṃ ca sākaṃ hatho apraty asurasya vīrān ||
iyam manīṣā bṛhatī bṛhantorukramā tavasā vardhayantī |
rare vāṃ stomaṃ vidatheṣu viṣṇo pinvatam iṣo vṛjaneṣv indra ||
vaṣaṭ te viṣṇav āsa ā kṛṇomi tan me juṣasva śipiviṣṭa havyam |
vardhantu tvā suṣṭutayo ghiro me yūyam pāta svastibhiḥ sadā naḥ ||

1. MEN come not nigh thy majesty who growest beyond all bound and measure with thy body.
Both thy two regions of the earth, O Viṣṇu, we know: thou God, knowest the highest also.
2 None who is born or being born, God Viṣṇu, hath reached the utmost limit of thy grandeur.
The vast high vault of heaven hast thou supported, and fixed earth's eastern pinnacle securely.
3 Rich in sweet food be ye, and rich in milch-kine, with fertile pastures, fain to do men service.
Both these worlds, Viṣṇu, hast thou stayed asunder, and firmly fixed the earth with pegs around it.
4 Ye have made spacious room for sacrificing by generating Sūrya, Dawn, and Agni.
O Heroes, ye have conquered in your battles even the bull-jawed Dāsa's wiles and magic.
5 Ye have destroyed, thou, Indra, and thou Viṣṇu, Śambara's nine-and-ninety fenced castles.
Ye Twain smote down a hundred times a thousand resistless heroes of the royal Varcin.
6 This is the lofty hymn of praise, exalting the Lords of Mighty Stride, the strong and lofty.
I laud you in the solemn synods, Viṣṇu: pour ye food on us in our camps, O Indra.
7 O Viṣṇu, unto thee my lips cry Vaṣaṭ! Let this mine offering, Sipivista, please thee.
May these my songs of eulogy exalt thee. Preserve us evermore, ye Gods, with blessings.

Notes:

Here is another clear reference to Vishnu's supremacy, though I admit the translator's archaic English makes it difficult to appreciate. God Vishnu's majesty cannot be approached by men, as His body is said to be boundless and immeasureable. The mantras further state that no one born can appreciate His glories - this would include even devas since devas also undergo birth. Vishnu is said to generate Surya, dawn, and Agni (note that Vishnu/Brahman is also referred to as Agni in other contexts, so this is an example in which context has to be used to determine which entity is being referred to - since the created being Agni is clearly meant here, it is a reference to the presiding deity of fire and not to Brahman). Of interest, many Rig vedic mantras mention Vishnu together with Indra. Sometimes the term "Indra" is also used to denote Brahman/Vishnu as opposed to the king of the devas, and this appears to be its usage in the 6th mantra.

philosoraptor
08 November 2012, 12:31 PM
Some may wonder why I am not quoting other mantras in which Rudra, or Indra, or Agni is described as supreme. Isn't this presentation one-sided? The answer, both according to common sense and according to vedAntic principles of interpretation, is that there can only be one Supreme Deity aka Brahman. Thus, for Vaishnava Vedaantins, there is no problem whatsoever with the idea of Brahman being called "Rudra," "Indra," "Vaayu," "Agni," etc.

Many of these names denote specific attributes, and thus they can be possessed by the Lord of all attributes (i.e. Brahman) or in a created being who is specifically known for having those attributes. For example, "Indra" means "Lord" or "King" - it is not a proper noun, and could be interpreted to mean other entities besides the king of the devas in svarga.

Then one might question - how do you know that the Vishnu who is described as a supreme deity is in fact the commonly-understood entity known as Vishnu, as opposed to another deity? This will be elaborated upon later, but in brief, there are additional descriptors in some the evidence which specifically points to the commonly understood Vishnu (for example, having Sri as His consort). Furthermore, some Vedic names for Brahman, like "nArAyaNa" are proper nouns which according to pAnini's rules of grammar can only be interpreted in one way. "nArAyaNa" is never used to describe any other deity, and as was pointed out earlier, "nArAyaNa" is equated to the viShNu of the vedas. This will be elaborated upon later.

For now, readers may wish to check my earlier posting http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=86253&postcount=4 which summarizes some of the evidence clearly showing that the Vedas acknowledge the existence of other gods (devas) who are different from, and subserviant to, Brahman. This is just to refute the commonly held misunderstanding that all gods mentioned everywhere are identical, which is a recent idea that is of non-Vedic origin. The "oneness" of other gods with Brahman is based on His being their indwelling controller, just as He lives with all of us. This is obviously, a distinct but related topic, so I will try not to digress on it too much here.

Omkara
08 November 2012, 10:15 PM
I don't want to take this thread off on a tangent here,but I have a doubt regarding the interpretation philosoraptor is setting out here.

In this book(http://books.google.co.in/books?id=evmiLInyxBMC&pg=PA149&lpg=PA150&ots=aYrRmyFg2U&dq=rudra+supreme+being&output=html_text) S.M.Srinivasachari says in page 149-150 that Ramanuja says that in the Atharvasiras upanishad (I have posted the upanishad at http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=10407 post no. 44 in case you want to refer it) when Rudra declares himself to be supreme,it is actually vishnu speaking through him and the passages which speak of rudra being supreme,even when they identify Rudra as Umapati actually refer to the indwelling controller of Rudra.This method is used to interpret the devas calling Rudra supreme in the Bhagavatam during the Samudra manthan.My query us that is this the way vaishnavas interpret all references in the vedas to the supreme being referred to with specific identificatory marks of another deity such as "him with matted hair","he who has three eyes","he who has a blue throat"he who dwells on the sacred mountain'"wearer of skins""he who is uma""umapati""ambikapati""destroyer of tripura" etc.?

Excellent work so far! Your presentation of pramanas is more systematic than mine was in the other thread.

shian
09 November 2012, 12:00 AM
its beautiful !

Omkara
19 November 2012, 10:22 PM
I don't want to take this thread off on a tangent here,but I have a doubt regarding the interpretation philosoraptor is setting out here.

In this book(http://books.google.co.in/books?id=evmiLInyxBMC&pg=PA149&lpg=PA150&ots=aYrRmyFg2U&dq=rudra+supreme+being&output=html_text) S.M.Srinivasachari says in page 149-150 that Ramanuja says that in the Atharvasiras upanishad (I have posted the upanishad at http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=10407 post no. 44 in case you want to refer it) when Rudra declares himself to be supreme,it is actually vishnu speaking through him and the passages which speak of rudra being supreme,even when they identify Rudra as Umapati actually refer to the indwelling controller of Rudra.This method is used to interpret the devas calling Rudra supreme in the Bhagavatam during the Samudra manthan.My query us that is this the way vaishnavas interpret all references in the vedas to the supreme being referred to with specific identificatory marks of another deity such as "him with matted hair","he who has three eyes","he who has a blue throat"he who dwells on the sacred mountain'"wearer of skins""he who is uma""umapati""ambikapati""destroyer of tripura" etc.?

Excellent work so far! Your presentation of pramanas is more systematic than mine was in the other thread.

It appears the answer to my question is yes.

This is from a SriVaishnava Website regarding Atharvashiras Upanishad-

Rudra has not declared his supremacy but has spoken so because of his thatva-jgnyAna obtained through the study of SAstra " SAstra- drushtyA thu upadESa vAmaDevavath " that he is the body of VishNu and VishNu is the soul - antaryAmi. He has declared the supremacy of VishNu who is the antaryAmi of all jIvAthmAs and achit. As Rudra had realized his Seshatva-pAratantriyams, he being a jIvAthman with tatva-jgnyAna declared the paramAthmA's supremacy. Therefore the para-thatvam is VishNu. Absolutely this point gets established in the Sruthi.

philosoraptor
20 November 2012, 09:43 AM
It appears the answer to my question is yes.

This is from a SriVaishnava Website regarding Atharvashiras Upanishad-

Rudra has not declared his supremacy but has spoken so because of his thatva-jgnyAna obtained through the study of SAstra " SAstra- drushtyA thu upadESa vAmaDevavath " that he is the body of VishNu and VishNu is the soul - antaryAmi. He has declared the supremacy of VishNu who is the antaryAmi of all jIvAthmAs and achit. As Rudra had realized his Seshatva-pAratantriyams, he being a jIvAthman with tatva-jgnyAna declared the paramAthmA's supremacy. Therefore the para-thatvam is VishNu. Absolutely this point gets established in the Sruthi.

I have not studied this Upanishad or the book you quoted, so I can't comment too much. However, that understanding is consistent with what I have read elsewhere. The Vishishtadvaitic paradigm strongly emphasizes the body-soul relationship of the jiva to Brahman, so much so that the realization of it is perceived as oneness even as difference is understood, e.g. I am His body to command, and so forth. The BrihadAranyaka Upanishad, which is strongly vishishtaadvaitic in character, contains a passage in which the jIva, realizing his identity as the body of Brahman, proclaims that he is Brahman. By that standard, Rudra realizing his oneness with Brahman and proclaiming that he is Brahman would certainly be consistent.

I agree that we should devote a separate thread to comparing and contrasting the Vaishnava and Shaivite interpretations of shruti, to do that subject justice.

philosoraptor
20 November 2012, 09:51 AM
Rg veda 7.100.1-7:

nū marto dayate saniṣyan yo viṣṇava urughāyāya dāśat |
pra yaḥ satrācā manasā yajāta etāvantaṃ naryam āvivāsāt ||
tvaṃ viṣṇo sumatiṃ viśvajanyām aprayutām evayāvo matiṃ dāḥ |
parco yathā naḥ suvitasya bhūrer aśvāvataḥ puruścandrasya rāyaḥ ||
trir devaḥ pṛthivīm eṣa etāṃ vi cakrame śatarcasam mahitvā |
pra viṣṇur astu tavasas tavīyān tveṣaṃ hy asya sthavirasya nāma ||
vi cakrame pṛthivīm eṣa etāṃ kṣetrāya viṣṇur manuṣe daśasyan |
dhruvāso asya kīrayo janāsa urukṣitiṃ sujanimā cakāra ||
pra tat te adya śipiviṣṭa nāmāryaḥ śaṃsāmi vayunāni vidvān |
taṃ tvā ghṛṇāmi tavasam atavyān kṣayantam asya rajasaḥ parāke ||
kim it te viṣṇo paricakṣyam bhūt pra yad vavakṣe śipiviṣṭo asmi |
mā varpo asmad apa ghūha etad yad anyarūpaḥ samithe babhūtha ||
vaṣaṭ te viṣṇav āsa ā kṛṇomi tan me juṣasva śipiviṣṭa havyam |
vardhantu tvā suṣṭutayo ghiro me yūyam pāta svastibhiḥ sadā naḥ ||

1 NE’ER doth the man repent, who, seeking profit, bringeth his gift to the far-striding Viṣṇu.
He who adoreth him with all his spirit winneth himself so great a benefactor.
2 Thou, Viṣṇu, constant in thy courses, gavest good-will to all men, and a hymn that lasteth,
That thou mightst move us to abundant comfort of very splendid wealth with store of horses.
3 Three times strode forth this God in all his grandeur over this earth bright with a hundred splendours.
Foremost be Viṣṇu, stronger than the strongest: for glorious is his name who lives for ever.
4 Over this earth with mighty step strode Viṣṇu, ready to give it for a home to Manu.
In him the humble people trust for safety: he, nobly born, hath made them spacious dwellings.
5 To-day I laud this name, O gipivista, I, skilled in rules, the name of thee the Noble.
Yea, I the poor and weak praise thee the Mighty who dwellest in the realm beyond this region.
6 What was there to be blamed in thee, O Viṣṇu, when thou declaredst, I am Sipivista?
Hide not this form from us, nor keep it secret, since thou didst wear another shape in battle.
7 O Viṣṇu, unto thee my lips cry Vaṣaṭ! Let this mine offering, Sipivista, please thee.
May these my songs of eulogy exalt thee. Preserve us evermore, ye Gods, with blessings.

philosoraptor
20 November 2012, 09:57 AM
Rig veda 10.90.1-16

sahasraśīrṣā puruṣaḥ sahasrākṣaḥ sahasrapāt |
sabhūmiṃ viśvato vṛtvātyatiṣṭhad daśāṅghulam ||
puruṣa evedaṃ sarvaṃ yad bhūtaṃ yacca bhavyam |
utāmṛtatvasyeśāno yadannenātirohati ||
etāvānasya mahimāto jyāyāṃśca pūruṣaḥ |
pādo.asyaviśvā bhūtāni tripādasyāmṛtaṃ divi ||
tripādūrdhva udait puruṣaḥ pādo.asyehābhavat punaḥ |
tato viṣvaṃ vyakrāmat sāśanānaśane abhi ||
tasmād virāḷ ajāyata virājo adhi pūruṣaḥ |
sa jātoatyaricyata paścād bhūmimatho puraḥ ||
yat puruṣeṇa haviṣā devā yajńamatanvata |
vasantoasyāsīdājyaṃ ghrīṣma idhmaḥ śarad dhaviḥ ||
taṃ yajńaṃ barhiṣi praukṣan puruṣaṃ jātamaghrataḥ |
tena devā ayajanta sādhyā ṛṣayaśca ye ||
tasmād yajńāt sarvahutaḥ sambhṛtaṃ pṛṣadājyam |
paśūntāṃścakre vāyavyānāraṇyān ghrāmyāśca ye ||
tasmād yajńāt sarvahuta ṛcaḥ sāmāni jajńire |
chandāṃsijajńire tasmād yajustasmādajāyata ||
tasmādaśvā ajāyanta ye ke cobhayādataḥ |
ghāvo hajajńire tasmāt tasmājjātā ajāvayaḥ ||
yat puruṣaṃ vyadadhuḥ katidhā vyakalpayan |
mukhaṃ kimasya kau bāhū kā ūrū pādā ucyete ||
brāhmaṇo.asya mukhamāsīd bāhū rājanyaḥ kṛtaḥ |
ūrūtadasya yad vaiśyaḥ padbhyāṃ śūdro ajāyata ||
candramā manaso jātaścakṣoḥ sūryo ajāyata |
mukhādindraścāghniśca prāṇād vāyurajāyata ||
nābhyā āsīdantarikṣaṃ śīrṣṇo dyauḥ samavartata |
padbhyāṃ bhūmirdiśaḥ śrotrāt tathā lokānakalpayan ||
saptāsyāsan paridhayastriḥ sapta samidhaḥ kṛtāḥ |
devāyad yajńaṃ tanvānā abadhnan puruṣaṃ paśum ||
yajńena yajńamayajanta devāstāni dharmāṇi prathamānyāsan |
te ha nākaṃ mahimānaḥ sacanta yatra pūrve sādhyāḥsanti devāḥ ||

1. A THOUSAND heads hath Puruṣa, a thousand eyes, a thousand feet.
On every side pervading earth he fills a space ten fingers wide.
2 This Puruṣa is all that yet hath been and all that is to be;
The Lord of Immortality which waxes greater still by food.
3 So mighty is his greatness; yea, greater than this is Puruṣa.
All creatures are one-fourth of him, three-fourths eternal life in heaven.
4 With three-fourths Puruṣa went up: one-fourth of him again was here.
Thence he strode out to every side over what cats not and what cats.
5 From him Virāj was born; again Puruṣa from Virāj was born.
As soon as he was born he spread eastward and westward o’er the earth.
6 When Gods prepared the sacrifice with Puruṣa as their offering,
Its oil was spring, the holy gift was autumn; summer was the wood.
7 They balmed as victim on the grass Puruṣa born in earliest time.
With him the Deities and all Sādhyas and Ṛṣis sacrificed.
8 From that great general sacrifice the dripping fat was gathered up.
He formed the creatures of-the air, and animals both wild and tame.
9 From that great general sacrifice Ṛcas and Sāma-hymns were born:
Therefrom were spells and charms produced; the Yajus had its birth from it.
10 From it were horses born, from it all cattle with two rows of teeth:
From it were generated kine, from it the goats and sheep were born.
11 When they divided Puruṣa how many portions did they make?
What do they call his mouth, his arms? What do they call his thighs and feet?
12 The Brahman was his mouth, of both his arms was the Rājanya made.
His thighs became the Vaiśya, from his feet the Śūdra was produced.
13 The Moon was gendered from his mind, and from his eye the Sun had birth;
Indra and Agni from his mouth were born, and Vāyu from his breath.
14 Forth from his navel came mid-air the sky was fashioned from his head
Earth from his feet, and from his car the regions. Thus they formed the worlds.
15 Seven fencing-sticks had he, thrice seven layers of fuel were prepared,
When the Gods, offering sacrifice, bound, as their victim, Puruṣa.
16 Gods, sacrificing, sacrificed the victim these were the earliest holy ordinances.
The Mighty Ones attained the height of heaven, there where the Sādhyas, Gods of old, are dwelling.

Notes:
-This is obviously the puruSha-sukta of the Rg veda.
-The puruSha identified here is described with attributes of a Supreme Deity.
-Neither viShNu's nor nArAyaNa's name is mentioned here, however this hymn is commonly interpreted in vedAntic circles as referring to nArAyaNa, and other sources such as the mahAnArAyaNa upaniShad do clearly identify this puruSha with nArAyaNa (will discuss later).
-The references to "thousands" of heads, arms, etc is, as per my understanding (can't recall where I read this) referring not literally to a "thousand" but more in the sense of having limitless arms, legs, etc.
-It's interesting there that this supreme deity is described as being the sacrificial victim. This obviously requires commentary which I don't have at present. I have read that it is a metaphor for the Deity creating the world out of Himself, which is another Upanishadic concept seen in multiple places.

philosoraptor
29 November 2012, 11:59 AM
yajur veda (taittirIya saMhitA) 4.2.9.10-11:

"May they sustain us with support.
That highest step of Visnu."

Here is a less direct reference in yajur veda (taittirIya saMhitA) 4.4.12:

"May the heavenly of the quarters, the easily milked, the rich in milk,
The goddess aid us, full of ghee;
Thou art the protector, who goest in front and behind;
O Brhaspati, yoke a voice in the south.
(May) the upright of the quarters, the bounteous region of the plants,
And Savitr with the year of the days (aid us);
The Revat Saman, and the Atichandas metre;
Without a foe, be kindly to us.
O thou of the three-and-thirtyfold Stoma, lady of the world,
Breathed on by Vivasvant, do thou be gracious to us [4];
Rich in ghee, O Savitr, through thy overlordship,
Be the bounteous region rich in milk, for us.
The firm among the quarters, lady of Visnu, the mild,
Ruling over this strength, the desirable,
Brhaspati, Matariçvan, Vayu,
The winds blowing together be gracious to us.
Prop of the sky, supporter of the earth,
Ruling this world, lady of Visnu,
All-extending, seeking food, with prosperity,
May Aditi be auspicious to us in her life.
Vaiçvanara to our help.
Present in the sky.
Us to-day Anumati.
O Anumati, thou.
With what to us radiant shall he be?
Who to-day yoketh?"

philosoraptor
29 November 2012, 12:09 PM
There are multiple references in the yajur veda saMhitA (taitirIya saMhitA) equating viShNu with yagna - this theme also comes out in the bhagavad-gItA and the bhAgavata purANa in conjunction with the monotheistic message of viShNu sarvottama:

vi. 1. 4.

Speech went away from the gods, not being willing to serve for the sacrifice. She entered the trees. It is the voice of the trees, the voice that is heard in the drum, the lute, and the flute. In that he offers the staff of the initiated, he wins speech. The (staff) is of Udumbara wood; the, Udumbara is strength; verily he wins strength. It is level with his mouth; verily from the mouth (downwards) he wins strength for him. Therefore from the mouth they enjoy strength [1]. After the buying of the Soma he hands the staff to the Maitravaruna (priest). For the Maitravaruna first assigns to the priests their utterance, and the priests plant it in the sacrificer. 'Hail! with my mind the sacrifice', he says; for man approaches the sacrifice with his mind. 'Hail! from heaven and earth', he says; for the sacrifice is in heaven and earth. 'Hail! from the broad atmosphere', he says; for the sacrifice is in the atmosphere. 'Hail! from the wind the sacrifice I grasp', he says [2]. The sacrifice is he who blows here; verily he clearly wins him. He clenches his fist; he restrains his speech, for the support of the sacrifice. 'This Brahman has consecrated himself', he says thrice in a whisper; verily he proclaims him to the gods. Thrice aloud (he says it); verily he proclaims him to both gods and men. He should not utter speech until the Naksatras appear. If he were to utter speech before the Naksatras appear, he would divide the sacrifice [3]. When the Naksatras have arisen, be utters speech, 'Prepare the fast food.' The consecrated is bound by a vow of sacrifice; verily with regard to the sacrifice does he utter speech. Should he utter speech, he should then repeat a Rc addressed to Visnu. Visnu is the sacrifice; verily he unites the sacrifice with the sacrifice. 'The thought divine we meditate', he says. Thus he makes smooth the sacrifice. 'May it guide us safely according as we will', he says. Verily he wins the dawn [4]. The theologians say, 'Should an offering be made in the house of one who is consecrated, or should an offering not be made?' The man who is consecrated is the oblation, and if he were to sacrifice he would offer a part of the sacrificer; if he were not to sacrifice, then he would omit a joint of the sacrifice. 'The gods, mind born, mind using', he says. The gods, mind born, mind using, are the breaths; verily in them he sacrifices secretly, and the sacrifice is both offered as it were and yet not offered. Now the Raksases are fain to hurt him who is consecrated while he sleeps. Agni [5] indeed is the slayer of the Raksases. 'O Agni, be thou wakeful. Let us be glad', he says; verily having made Agni his guardian, for the smiting away of the Raksases, he sleeps. Now, if a man who is consecrated sleeps, he does something that as it were is contrary to his vow. I Thou, O Agni, art the guardian of vows', he says. Agni indeed is among the gods the guardian of vows; verily he causes him to take up his vow again. 'Among the gods and men', he says for he, being a god [6], is (guardian of vows) among men. 'Thou art to be invoked at our sacrifices', he says; for him they invoke at the sacrifices. Now power and the gods depart from the man who is consecrated when he is asleep. 'All the gods have surrounded me', he says; verily he unites him with both power and the gods. If he were not to utter that formula (Yajus), so many cattle would be as he might consecrate himself for. 'O Soma, give so much [7] and bear more hither', he says; verily he obtains innumerable cattle. 'Thou art gold; be for my enjoyment', he says; verily he takes each according to its deity. He says, 'To Vayu thee, to Varuna thee!' If he did not so specify them, he would put the gifts out of correspondence with the deities, and would be brought low to the deities. Because he thus specifies them, he puts the gifts in correspondence with the deities, and is not brought low to the deities. 'O divine waters, son of the waters', he says. 'That divine part of yours, which is pure and fit for the sacrifice, may I not step upon', that he says in effect. 'The unbroken web of earth may I follow', he says; verily making a bridge he crosses over.

vi. 1. 7.

That became gold. Therefore they purify gold forth from the waters. The theologians say, 'How is it that offspring are produced through that which is boneless, and yet are born with bones?' Because he offers the gold, placing it in the ghee, therefore are offspring produced, through that which is boneless, and yet are born with bones. The ghee is Agni's loved abode, the gold, is radiance. 'This is thy body, O pure one. This is thy splendour', he says; verily he unites Agni with his radiance and his body [1]; verily also he makes him ready. If he were to deposit (the gold) without fastening it on, then the foetuses of offspring would be liable to miscarriage. He deposits it fastening it on, to secure the foetuses. He fastens it so that it cannot be untied, for the production of offspring. The cow with which the Soma is bought is speech. 'Thou art the strong', he says; for what he strengthens in his mind, that he expresses in speech. 'Grasped by mind', he says; for by mind is speech grasped. 'Acceptable to Visnu he says [2]. Visnu is the sacrifice; verily be makes her accept able to the sacrifice. 'Through the impulse of thee, of true impulse', he says; verily he wins speech which is impelled by Savitr. As each part is performed, the Raksases are fain to injure the sacrifice; the path of Agni and Surya is one which the Raksases cannot injure. 'I have mounted the eye of the sun, the pupil of the eye of Agni', he says. He mounts the path which is not injured by the Raksases [3]. The cow with which the Soma is bought is speech. 'Thou art thought, thou art mind', he says; verily he instructs her. Therefore children are born instructed. 'Thou art thought', he says, for what one thinks in the mind one expresses in speech. 'Thou art mind', he says; for what one grasps by the mind one performs. 'Thou art meditation', he says; for what one meditates with the mind one expresses in speech [4]. 'Thou art the gift (to the priests)', he says; for (the cow) is the gift. 'Thou art of the sacrifice', he says; verily he makes her fit for the sacrifice. 'Thou art of kingly power', he says, for she is of kingly power. 'Thou art Aditi, double-headed', he says. In that to Aditi belong the opening and the concluding oblations of the sacrifices, therefore does he say that. If (the cow) were not bound, she would be unrestrained; if she were bound by the foot, she would be the funeral cow, and the sacrificer would be likely to perish [5]. If she were held by the ears, she would belong to Vrtrahan, and the sacrificer would oppress another, or another would oppress him. 'May Mitra bind thee by the foot', he says. Mitra is the auspicious one of the gods; verily with his help he binds her by the foot. 'May Pusan guard the ways', he says. Pusan is this (earth); verily he makes her lady of this (earth), for the gaining thereof. 'For Indra the guardian!' he says; verily he makes Indra her guardian [6]. 'May thy mother approve, thy father', he says; verily he buys with her approved. 'Go, O goddess, to the god', he says; for she is a goddess, and Soma is a god. 'To Indra Soma', he says; for the Soma is borne to Indra. If he were not to say that text, the cow with which the Soma is bought would go away. 'May Rudra guide thee hither', he says. Rudra is the harsh [7] one of the gods; verily he places him below her, for guiding hither. He does as it were a harsh thing when he recites that (text) of Rudra's. 'In the path of Mitra', he says, for soothing. He buys indeed by speech when he buys by the cow with which the Soma is bought. Hail! Return with Soma as thy comrade, with wealth', he says, verily having purchased by means of speech, he restores speech to himself. The speech of him who knows thus is not likely to fail.

vi. 2. 1.

If he should offer hospitality after unyoking both (the oxen), he would break up the sacrifice. If (he should offer) before he has unyoked both, it would be as when hospitality is offered to one who has not yet arrived. One ox is unyoked, one ox is not unyoked; then he offers hospitality, for the continuance of the sacrifice. The wife (of the sacrificer) holds on (to the cart); for the wife is mistress of the household gear; verily he offers what is approved by the wife. The share of the wife in the sacrifice makes a pair; so the wife also [1] grasps the sacrifice that it may not be interrupted. With whatever retinue the king comes, to all of them hospitality is offered; the metres are the retinue of King Soma. 'Thou art the hospitality of Agni. For Visnu thee!' he says; thus he offers (hospitality) to the Gayatri. 'Thou art the hospitality of Soma. 'For Visnu thee!' he says; thus he offers (hospitality) to the Tristubh. 'Thou art the hospitality of the stranger. For Visnu thee!' he says; thus he offers (hospitality) to the Jagati [2]. 'For Agni thee, giver of wealth, for Visnu thee!' he says; thus he offers (hospitality) to the Anustubh. 'For the eagle, bringer of the Soma, thee, for Visnu thee!' he says; thus he offers (hospitality) to the Gayatri. He offers five times. The Pankti has five syllables, the sacrifice is fivefold; verily he wins the sacrifice. The theologians say, 'For what reason is the Gayatri offered to on either side of the offering of hospitality?' Because the Gayatri brought the Soma down [3]; therefore is it offered to on both sides of hospitality, before and after. Hospitality is the head of the sacrifice, the sacrificial cake is offered on nine potsherds, therefore the head has nine apertures. The sacrificial cake is offered on nine potsherds. The three sets of three potsherds are commensurate with the Trivrt Stoma, the Trivrt is brilliance; verily he places brilliance in the head of the sacrifice. The sacrificial cake is offered on nine potsherds. The three sets of three potsherds are commensurate with the threefold breath, the breath is threefold [4]; verily in order he places the threefold breath in the head of the sacrifice. Now the Saccharum spontaneum shoots are the eyelashes of Prajapati, and his lids are pieces of sugar-cane. In that the strew is of Saccharum spontaneum and the dividing-stakes of sugar-cane, verily he brings together the eye of Prajapati. Now the libations made by the gods the Asuras tore and ate. The gods saw the Gmelina arborea tree. (Thinking) 'It is fit for work; by it one can perform work', they made the enclosing sticks of Gmelina arborea wood [5], and by them they smote away the Raksases. In that the enclosing-sticks are made of Gmelina arborea wood, it is for the smiting away of the Raksases. He makes them touch, that the Raksases may not go through them. He does not place one in front, for the sun which rises in front smites away the Raksases. He places the kindling-sticks erect; verily from above he smites away the Raksases; (he places one) with a Yajus, the other in silence, to make a pair. He places two; the sacrifice has two feet; (verily they serve) for support. The theologians say [6], 'There are both Agni and Soma here; why is hospitality offered to Soma and not to Agni?' In that having kindled fire he places it on the fire, by that verily is hospitality offered to Agni. Or rather they say, 'Agni is all the gods.' In that he kindles fire after placing the oblation, he thus produces all the gods for the oblation when it has been placed.

yajvan
29 November 2012, 06:05 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~


namasté


...the first few lines clearly state that He is vishwa[Universe],

Let me offer this point of view for one's consideration...

Viśva is defined as all-pervading or all-containing , omnipresent ; whole , entire , universal. The idea here is universal (an adjective ) = including or covering all or a whole collectively or distributively without limit or exception.
Universe ( a noun) = the whole body of things and phenomena observed or postulated. The difference is slight, yet it brings a better appreciation ( for me) on just how full (pūrṇa) nārāyaṇa is.

The point is, one could argue that I exist in the universe but I am not the universe. This is not the case with nārāyaṇa as He is within and without.

Why would one even care ? It is due to the name nārāyaṇa.
nār +āya + ṇa can be looked at in mutiple ways...let me offer one :


nāra + āya + ṇa

nāra = relating to or proceeding from men , human , mortal ( note nārą below)
āya =arrival , approach
ṇa = nirvṛti = emancipation , mokṣa, liberation or nirvāṇa ; it too is behind the etymology of kriṣṇaSo what does this nāra + āya + ṇa disection tell us ? Humans are going in the direction of (ayanaą) ṇa , which is mokṣa, which is none other then the abode of nārāyaṇa.


praṇām


words

nār is the vṛddhi form of nṛ which is defined as mankind.
vṛddhi is the second modification or increase of vowels which they are subjected to under certain conditions: ā is the vṛddhi form of the vowel 'a'; ai is the vṛddhi form of i ; ī is the vṛddhi form of e , etc.
ayana - way , progress , manner ; course, direction; place of refuge

sanathan
30 November 2012, 01:37 AM
Deity Vishnu/NArAyaNa is the Brahman of upanishads according to following scriptural statements, yukthi.

1. Brahman of upanishads is jagath karana tattvam -
shruthi delcares it as "yatho vaa imani bhootani jayante..".

2. Brahman of upanishads is ultimate goal to be achieved by jeevas-

Shruthi declares it as "Brahmavit apnothi param" .

3. Brahman of upanishads is ubhayalinga i.e apahata papma (one who is beyond karma binds), ananta kalyana gunaatmaka - Sruthi declares it as "aphatapapma, vijaro , vimruthyu.." "satyakama, satya sankalpa" , "satyam,jananam , anantam" , "anando brahma"

4. Brahman of upanishads is beyond the limitations

"aprapya manasa saha"

5. Brahman of upanishads is sarva vyaapi

"antarbhihscha tat sarvam vyaapya"

6. Brahman of upanishads has his own divya mangala vigraha

"tasya yadha kapyaasam pundareekamevamakshinee"
"nakshtraani roopam"


Now these all features(svarupa,rupa,guna,vibhuti) are present in the diety Vishnu according to shruthi,smruthi,itihaasa,puranas.

1. jagath karana tattvam - "Ekohavai NArAyaNAaseeth na brahma nesanaha" - categorically denies the existence of other deities in the beginning and existence of only NArAyaNa is established fact and evidence for NArAyaNa as jagath karana tattvam.

"Brahma pradhama sambhabhoova" etc., sruthi vakyaas declare Chaturmukha Brahma is first born being , these are well explained by puranaas.

2. Moksha or ultimate goal to be achieved

"So dhvanaha paaramapnothi tadvishnoh paramam padam" - says it is the Vishnu's parama padam will be achieved by them as liberation from samsara. Ofcourse it is not a material world .

And all other material worlds are perishable , so by meditating or doing upasana to other deities..people can go to the particular deity..but those places are perishable , not treated as moksha, same is clearly established in Gita
"Devaan deva yajo yanti, madbhakta yanti mamapi" , "Abrhma bhuvanah loka punaravarthino arjuna" .

3. Apahata Papmatva and Ananta KalyAna gunakaratva

NArAyana is the only deity who doesn't have any karma and full of auspicious attributes

"Yesha sarva bhutantaratma apahatapapma divyo deva Eko NArAyaNa"

4. Vishnu is unlimited, beyond comprehension

"anantamavyayam kavigum samudrentam viSvaSambhuvam"

His nature as Ananta is well explained in puranas.

5. Sarva vyaapakatvam:

Vishnu the name itself refers his nature of pervasion, and sruthi declares it in clear terms

"antarbahischa tatsarvam vyapya narayana stithaha"
Gita declares "mayi sarvamidam protham suthre mani gana iva"

6. Vishnu is divya mangala vigraha pushta

The same concept revealed by upanishads as "Pundareekam evamakshinee" is elaborated in puranas , Vishnu as pundareekaksha and his form as so beautiful and so blissful.


So all the features of Brahman can be seen in Vishnu and Vishnu alone..

Omkara
30 November 2012, 07:04 AM
A Vaishnava commentary on the Purusha Sukta

http://www.srimatham.com/storage/docs/purusa-sukta-and-commentary.pdf

sanathan
01 December 2012, 07:58 AM
Some are trying to religate the supremacy of Vishnu by quoting some unauthenticated quotes like below:

"Paraatparato Brahma, Tat Paraatparato Harihi, Tat Paraatparato Sambhuhu"

Seers know the position of Hari , they start the Veda pathana by "Harih Om".

Do we know more than Veda Vyasa who declared "alodhya sarva sastrani punaha punah, idamekam sunishpannam dhyeyo nArAyaNa sada".

It is sheer ignorance to say there is some other deity higher than Hari..

"Mattha paratharam nAnyath" ..

This is simple fact that..any quote can be valid only when it is not in contradiction with athenticated principal upanishads and few verses of other upanishads quoted by our purvacharyas(Shankara,Ramanuja,Madhva)..and BS, Gita (which are part of prasthana trayi).

Without looking at samanvaya , mere babbling of various quotes is useless since the same quotes then will be in contradiction with other valid scriptures.

"nathe vishnO jAyamAnO na jatho deva mahimnaha paramantamaap"(RV VII.99.2)

Veda declares it that Vishnu is inconceivable by any one even by devas..and still some people try to say that some thing higher than Hari is present..how pity!

May god bless all and may god show the path of "Vishnoh paramam padam" to all !

Omkara
01 December 2012, 09:58 PM
Some are trying to religate the supremacy of Vishnu by quoting some unauthenticated quotes like below:

"Paraatparato Brahma, Tat Paraatparato Harihi, Tat Paraatparato Sambhuhu"

It is sheer ignorance to say there is some other deity higher than Hari..

"Mattha paratharam nAnyath" ..

This is simple fact that..any quote can be valid only when it is not in contradiction with athenticated principal upanishads and few verses of other upanishads quoted by our purvacharyas(Shankara,Ramanuja,Madhva)..and BS, Gita (which are part of prasthana trayi).

Without looking at samanvaya , mere babbling of various quotes is useless since the same quotes then will be in contradiction with other valid scriptures.

"nathe vishnO jAyamAnO na jatho deva mahimnaha paramantamaap"(RV VII.99.2)

Veda declares it that Vishnu is inconceivable by any one even by devas..and still some people try to say that some thing higher than Hari is present..how pity!

May god bless all and may god show the path of "Vishnoh paramam padam" to all !

May I ask what makes my quote "unauthenticated"? It is part of the Rig Veda Khila,which is accepted as Shruti by everyone.The Sri Sukta is also from the Rig Veda Khila too.Will you reject that? All the three veda commentators, Sayana,Mahidara and Uvata have commented on this sukta and accepted it as part of the vedas.If you reject the Rig Veda Khila,you are a nastika.As simple as that.

Please note that the Maha Upanishad is not accepted by non-Vaishnavas.Also,any Vaishnava quoting the Maha Upanishad to prove supremacy of Sriman Narayana must first answer why the upanishad later taljs about the creation of Vishnu and why it says Vishnu is destroyed at pralaya.Also,why do Vaishnavas reject jeevanmukti while the Maha upanishad supports it?Why do Vaishnavas reject vivarta vada when the Maha Upanishad supports it?

Also,my quote was posted on another thread.Why are you derailing this thread by bringing in external discussion here?

Also,you refer to unauthenricated verses quoted by me in plural.Please point out which other verses you think are unauthentixated and why you think so.

sanathan
02 December 2012, 02:57 AM
May I ask what makes my quote "unauthenticated"? It is part of the Rig Veda Khila,which is accepted as Shruti by everyone.The Sri Sukta is also from the Rig Veda Khila too.Will you reject that? All the three veda commentators, Sayana,Mahidara and Uvata have commented on this sukta and accepted it as part of the vedas.If you reject the Rig Veda Khila,you are a nastika.As simple as that.

Please note that the Maha Upanishad is not accepted by non-Vaishnavas.Also,any Vaishnava quoting the Maha Upanishad to prove supremacy of Sriman Narayana must first answer why the upanishad later taljs about the creation of Vishnu and why it says Vishnu is destroyed at pralaya.Also,why do Vaishnavas reject jeevanmukti while the Maha upanishad supports it?Why do Vaishnavas reject vivarta vada when the Maha Upanishad supports it?

Also,my quote was posted on another thread.Why are you derailing this thread by bringing in external discussion here?

Also,you refer to unauthenricated verses quoted by me in plural.Please point out which other verses you think are unauthentixated and why you think so.

You can open a new thread to discuss all these matters, since this thread is to show valid vedic statements related to Vishnu, I have refuted some of your unauthentic quotes.

Logic is simple, whatever you quote as Vedic statement, can not become so ..it should have authenticity i.e should have been used by any one of the authentic lineage and should not be in contradiction with prasthana trayi.

There are huge number of fabricated texts , you know those more than me.

So anyone who seriously seeking to know TRUTH will first take the principal upanishads and other 2 sources of prasthana trayi.


Regarding your sources from Sayana,Mahidhara etc., are not authentic..just because they are in contradiction with above said well authentic sources.

If you don't know it already..check with any lineage which follow the tradition since centuries.

"Dayananda rejected the older commentaries of the Vedas by Sayana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayana), Mahidhara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahidhara) and Uvata (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uvata) as medieval corruptions "

Quotes you have shown from Maha Upanishad are not authentic as well, reason is very simple .. it can not contradict with itself .. the authentic lines are those which were quoted by purvacharyas.

You are always missing one simple point that..every thing and any thing you quote as vedic can not become so unless it is not in contradiction with well established,authentic principal upanishads,BS, BG.

"Tadvishnoh paramam padam sada pasyanti surayaha"

And now you are trying to say that Vishnu is destroyed by putting some unauthenticated quote(its contradiction with an authentic quote proves its fabricated nature).

Or if you can show someother meaning to Vishnu other than the deity who is all pervading and called as para tattvam. (NArAyaNa param brahma tattvam, NArAyaNa paraha).

Don't try to religate Vishnu as created and destroyed being with your ignorance.

Krishna rightly said it in BG "avajAnanti maam mudhaha".

First read Shankara's BS bhashya , his Brihadaranyaka bhashya, BG bhashya etc., and come with valid pramanas what he said about NArAyaNa..

sanathan
02 December 2012, 03:12 AM
The so called Maha Upanishad's quotes which talsk about Vishnu's origination and destruction, Jeevanmukthi etc., never refuted by Vaishnava acharyas as purva paksha..that means these were not known to them, and later additions by some fanatics is well proved.

Vaishnava traditional acharyas quoted and refuted many purva paksha's arguments which can be considered authentic..and been there since then. Others which are coming newly and not refuted in older texts surely are of the nature of fabricated..don't know why this simple logic can not be grased by our friends.

sanathan
02 December 2012, 03:50 AM
Nothing can be proved newly, all was done and established long back..

But no one condemns the upasana of any deity, it is the thing that is established is "parattva of nArAyaNa".

If some body wants to prove some thing now, they have to rely on same scriptures used by our ancients..not the new quotes and texts which were never used by any authentic traditional acharyas.

The great advaitin Scholar Sri Appayya Dikshita tried to prove that all synonyms of Vishnu are infact Shiva's names. But the word NArAyaNa, due to the strict grammatical rules in
sanskrit made it impossible for him to prove what he set about. And he exclaimed "Nathvam baadhathe". Ah, this Nakaara troubles!!

Please go through his works..and his exclamation about word "NArAyaNa" !

And now people coming newly to prove that "nArAyaNa" as created and destroyed deity..how pity!

O NArAyaNa! ..save these people.

yajvan
02 December 2012, 03:22 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


..it should have authenticity i.e should have been used by any one of the authentic lineage
From the āptamanujaproktaą i.e. written or said by those that are trustworthy. Such as muni vaikhānasa-ji who passed his insights to bhṛgu, marīci and the like.

praṇām
words

āptamanujaprokta
āpta = received , got , gained , obtained ; full , complete.
manu = man, the thinking man, wise, intelligent
jap = to call, invoke
ra = acquiring
ukta = uttered, word

philosoraptor
03 December 2012, 10:54 AM
Gentlemen (and ladies), please be nice. I want that this thread should have an auspicious feel to it considering the subject matter.

Nondual
04 December 2012, 02:34 AM
One has to do a lot of reinterpretation to equate Brahman with the specific deity of Vishnu. Brahman is usually accepted as the unconditioned state of consciousness, so I am not sure that one can give it personality or form.

Also, deities refer to different conditioned states, which is why in Veda we see different devas beings praised at different times. So it would be reasonable to conclude that the supreme would be beyond all these names and forms.

Omkara
04 December 2012, 02:58 AM
You can open a new thread to discuss all these matters, since this thread is to show valid vedic statements related to Vishnu, I have refuted some of your unauthentic quotes.


You were the one who brought in an irrelevant topic of dicussion to this thread.You are simply beating around the bush without explaining why you consider quotes from a universally accepted pramana like the rig veda as unauthentic.




Logic is simple, whatever you quote as Vedic statement, can not become so ..it should have authenticity i.e should have been used by any one of the authentic lineage and should not be in contradiction with prasthana trayi.


Shaivas are not vedantins and do not claim to be vedantins.So we do not accept the prasthanatrayi, or rather specifically the Bhagavad Gita.The quote I used has bewn cited way back in the eleventh century by the Shaiva Acharya Srikantha.But I presume by autgentic lineages you mean specifically Vaishnava lineages.What a wonderful exampke of circular reasoning.Also, a shruti quote is a shruti quote,whether it has been quoted before or not.You apparently seem to feel that shruti quotes which contradict other quotes,or rather your interpretation of other quotes must be thrown away.



First read Shankara's BS bhashya , his Brihadaranyaka bhashya, BG bhashya etc., and come with valid pramanas what he said about NArAyaNa..

As I am not a follower of Shankara,may I aak what this statement is supposed to mean?That I should accept vishnu sarvottamatva based on his autority?Then why don't you accept Advaita first?

Omkara
04 December 2012, 02:59 AM
The so called Maha Upanishad's quotes which talsk about Vishnu's origination and destruction, Jeevanmukthi etc., never refuted by Vaishnava acharyas as purva paksha..that means these were not known to them, and later additions by some fanatics is well proved.

Vaishnava traditional acharyas quoted and refuted many purva paksha's arguments which can be considered authentic..and been there since then. Others which are coming newly and not refuted in older texts surely are of the nature of fabricated..don't know why this simple logic can not be grased by our friends.
Thus is so ridiculous that I am not going to dignify it with a reply.

Omkara
04 December 2012, 03:02 AM
Nothing can be proved newly, all was done and established long back..

But no one condemns the upasana of any deity, it is the thing that is established is "parattva of nArAyaNa".

If some body wants to prove some thing now, they have to rely on same scriptures used by our ancients..not the new quotes and texts which were never used by any authentic traditional acharyas.

The great advaitin Scholar Sri Appayya Dikshita tried to prove that all synonyms of Vishnu are infact Shiva's names. But the word NArAyaNa, due to the strict grammatical rules in
sanskrit made it impossible for him to prove what he set about. And he exclaimed "Nathvam baadhathe". Ah, this Nakaara troubles!!

Please go through his works..and his exclamation about word "NArAyaNa" !

And now people coming newly to prove that "nArAyaNa" as created and destroyed deity..how pity!

O NArAyaNa! ..save these people.




How is this relevant to the authenticity of my quote?

Omkara
04 December 2012, 03:08 AM
There are huge number of fabricated texts , you know those more than me.


How is a text from the Rig Veda 'fabricated'?



Regarding your sources from Sayana,Mahidhara etc., are not authentic..just because they are in contradiction with above said well authentic sources.

If you don't know it already..check with any lineage which follow the tradition since centuries.

"Dayananda rejected the older commentaries of the Vedas by Sayana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayana), Mahidhara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahidhara) and Uvata (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uvata) as medieval corruptions "


The above sentence makes no sense whatsoever.What exacly are you trying to say? That the above mentioned three commentators did not comment on the vedas,or that they commented on fraudulent verses?And why bring a neo hindu guru in here? FYI,dayananda has commented on the verses in question too.

Omkara
04 December 2012, 03:32 AM
Gentlemen (and ladies), please be nice. I want that this thread should have an auspicious feel to it considering the subject matter.


I apologize for the mudslinging that is going on in this thread.In my opinion the blame for this should go to those who reject shruti as 'unauthentic' when it does not agree with their views and decide to rant about it in untelared threads.Perhaps the moderator should move the entire argument to another thread.

Anirudh
04 December 2012, 04:28 AM
Namaste Omkara & sanathan,

Perhaps the moderator should move the entire argument to another thread.
Minus the (heated) exchanges, this thread is very informative to illiterates like me.

philosoraptor
05 December 2012, 07:01 PM
One has to do a lot of reinterpretation to equate Brahman with the specific deity of Vishnu. Brahman is usually accepted as the unconditioned state of consciousness, so I am not sure that one can give it personality or form.

I used to think like that, until I started studying the Upanishads and other Vedantic texts. The equating of Narayana with Brahman is very explicit. In fact, the equating of Brahman to a "supreme person" is also very explicit. Aside from references describing Brahman as the "parama purusha," there are references to His many arms/legs/eyes/ etc, references to cognitive acts (i.e. "He thought, let me be many.") and so on. It is the Advaitin who has to reinterpret all of these references to Brahman from the perspective of an illusory level of perception, which itself undercuts the authority of shruti.



Also, deities refer to different conditioned states, which is why in Veda we see different devas beings praised at different times. So it would be reasonable to conclude that the supreme would be beyond all these names and forms.

The above logic is not sound. First, there is no evidence that devas correspond to "different conditioned states." Prayers for liberation are useless when directed to conditioned beings. The argument that "devas=conditioned states therefore the supreme is beyond all names and forms" is a non-sequitur. It is also contradicted by multiple shruti pramanas which describe His names and forms. Finally, there is only one entity who is prayed to as supreme, often using names that happen to also be possessed by other deities, but other deities are also invoked as ancillary to meditation on Brahman. All of these points have been discussed previously with reference to appropriate pramanas.

philosoraptor
06 December 2012, 03:59 PM
yajur veda saMhitA (taitirrIya saMhita 5.2.2):

Headed by Visnu the gods won finally these worlds by the metres; in that he strides the strides of Visnu, the sacrificer becoming Visnu wins finally these worlds. 'Thou art the step of Visnu, overcoming hostility', he says; the earth is connected with the Gayatri, the atmosphere with the Tristubh, the sky with the Jagati, the quarters with the Anustubh; verily he wins in order these worlds with the metres. Prajapati created Agni; he being created went away from him [1]; he followed him with this (verse), 'He hath cried'; with it he won the home dear to Agni; in that he repeats this (verse), he wins thereby the home dear to Agni. Now he who steps the strides of Visnu is apt as he goes away to be burnt up; he turns with four (verses); the. metres are four, Agni's dear body is the metres; verily he turns round on his dear body [2]; he turns round from left to right; verily he turns round on his own strength; therefore the right side of the body is the stronger; verily also does he turn with the turning of the sun. Varuna seized Çunahçepa Ajigarti, he saw this verse addressed to Varuna, by it he freed himself from the noose of Varuna; Varuna seizes him who takes the fire-pan; 'From us the highest knot, O Varuna', he says; verily thereby he frees himself from Varuna's noose [3]. 'I have drawn thee', he says, for he draws him. 'Be thou firm and motionless', he says, for support. 'Let all the folk desire thee', he says; verily with the folk he unites him. 'In him establish the kingdom', he says; verily in him he makes the kingdom to abide. If he desire of a man, 'May he be a ruler', he should think of him with his mind; verily he becomes a ruler [4]. 'In greatness he hath risen erect in the van of the dawns', he says; verily he makes him the first of his peers. 'Emerging from the darkness', he says; verily he smites away darkness from him. 'He hath come with the light', he says; verily he bestows light upon him. He places him with four (verses); the metres are four; verily with the metres (he places him); with an Atichandas as the last; the Atichandas is the highest of metres; verily he makes him the highest of his peers; it contains [5] the word 'sit' (sad); verily he makes him attain reality (sat-tvám). With (the hymn) of Vatsapri he reverences (him); by that did Vatsapri Bhalandana win the home dear to Agni; verily by it he wins the home dear to Agni. It has eleven (verses); verily in eleven places he bestows strength on the sacrificer. By the Stoma the gods prospered in this world, by the metres in yonder world; the hymn of Vatsapri is the type of the Stoma; in that he pays reverence with (the hymn) of Vatsapri [6], he wins with it this world; in that he strides the steps of Visnu, he wins by them yonder world. On the first day he strides forth, on the next day he pays reverence; therefore the minds of some creatures are set on energy, those of others on rest; therefore the active lords it over him who takes his ease therefore the active fixes upon a man who takes his ease. He clenches his fist, he restrains his speech, for support.

philosoraptor
06 December 2012, 04:07 PM
aitareya brAhmaNa 1.1.1:
agnirvai devAnAmavamo viShNuH paramaH | tadantarA sarvA devatAH ||
"Among gods, Agni, the fire-god is the lowest and Vishnu is the highest. In between come all other gods."

shatapatha brAhmaNa 14.1.1.5:
viShNurdevAnAM shreShTaH |
"Vishnu is the best among gods."

taittirIya brAhmaNa 2.4.3.3:
agnirmukhaM prathamo devatAnAM saMgatAnAmuttamo viShNurAsIt ||
"In the communion of gods, Agni was the first and Vishnu was the highest."

Omkara
10 December 2012, 10:10 AM
Rig Veda 10.125.7

Devi,who is clearly identified as the Shakti of the Supreme Being in earlier verses of the hymn,says

On the world's summit I bring forth the Father: my home is in the waters, in the ocean. Thence I extend o’er all existing creatures, and touch even yonder heaven with my forehead.

Note-While I do not beleive in Vishnu Sarvottamatva,I will post references which could be interpreted as declaring Lord Vishnu as the Supreme Being.

Arjunesh
10 December 2012, 12:04 PM
:Cool:

Anirudh
16 December 2012, 01:19 AM
Note-While I do not beleive in Vishnu Sarvottamatva,I will post references which could be interpreted as declaring Lord Vishnu as the Supreme Being.


Pranaam Omkara,
Sahasranama (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=94865#post94865) (3rd post in the thread) had shared few interesting information.

What is your take on the information that about 94% of the Vedic text is lost?

Omkara
16 December 2012, 08:53 PM
Pranaam Omkara,
Sahasranama (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=94865#post94865) (3rd post in the thread) had shared few interesting information.

What is your take on the information that about 94% of the Vedic text is lost?

The 94% figure is a fantasy of iskconites who want us to throw away the vedas and accept the bhagavata purana as the major pramana.
Firstly,it is foolish to take it that there are 100 and thousand shakhas of the yajur and sama veda but only 21 and nine shakhas of the rig and atharva veda.Most scholars take 100 and thousand as symbolic of a large number as is often used in vedic literature.
Also,most shakhas contain a lot of material from other shakhas,so that further reduces the amount of verses actually lost.Further,the sama and yajur veda contain a lot of material from the Rig Veda.I would estimate about 30% of the vedas is lost.

Anirudh
16 December 2012, 11:25 PM
I would estimate about 30% of the vedas is lost.

Pranaam Omkara,

Thank you very much!

I consider Shree Raama Chandra Prabhu as my friend and an ardent Vishnu Bhakth. Until very recently, never cared to bow my head in front of Shiv ling. Even today, I don't get connected to Shiv Ling. How ever, his Rudra avatar mesmerizes me. And when I see Shivji in his Rudra Avatar I see only Shreeman Naarayan's Vishwaroop.

If my friend helps me out must be meeting HIS son Harihara by mid January. And this ascetic life these days has taught me many lessons. Because of that my unreasonable bias towards Shivji is waning. May be some day I will see Vishu in Shiva and Shiva in Vishnu. But this अज्ञानी has got a long way to go to reach that mental state.

Few section of your post had triggered some uneasy feelings in my mind although won't blame you for my reactions. If I were the same arrogant guy of my youth, would have picked up unwanted heated debates.

You in your young age have shown us your great command and dedication towards the mother of Bhaarathiya Bhaasha. I request you (and pray Maa Saraswathi to help you) to utilize your hard earned and gifted skill to illuminate and unite scores of illiterate Bhaarathiya's like me... Maa Bhaarathi is in need of able children like you who would bridge the gap between us, the Aam Aadmis.

Kindly pardon me, if If I have uttered something which weren't practiced in my very own post(s)...

Viraja
20 December 2012, 11:39 AM
Hi,

Sriman Narayana is described to exist in 5 states: param, vyuham, vibhavam, archa and antharyami.

Isn't the antharyami state correspondent to the state of 'paraBrahmam'? (the all pervading Brahman).

philosoraptor
20 December 2012, 02:26 PM
The 94% figure is a fantasy of iskconites who want us to throw away the vedas and accept the bhagavata purana as the major pramana.
Firstly,it is foolish to take it that there are 100 and thousand shakhas of the yajur and sama veda but only 21 and nine shakhas of the rig and atharva veda.Most scholars take 100 and thousand as symbolic of a large number as is often used in vedic literature.
Also,most shakhas contain a lot of material from other shakhas,so that further reduces the amount of verses actually lost.Further,the sama and yajur veda contain a lot of material from the Rig Veda.I would estimate about 30% of the vedas is lost.

Actually, I think the figure comes from a statement in one of the puranas listing the different divisions of the Vedas, against which one can compare with the known shrutis still extant. This was quoted by Satyanarayana dasa in his translation of the Tattva Sandarbha. If memory serves, it was a genuine quote.

Satyananrayana is actually not an ISKCONite as per my understanding.

philosoraptor
20 December 2012, 03:11 PM
kaTha upaniShad

viGYaanasaarathiryastu manaH pragrahavaannaraH .
so.adhvanaH paaramaapnoti tadvishhNoH paramaM padam.h .. 9..

1-III-9. But the man who has a discriminating intellect as his driver, and a controlled-mind as the reins, reaches the end of the path - that supreme state of Vishnu.

mahAnArAyaNa upaniShad

shriirme bhajatu alakshmiirme nashyatu .
vishhNumukhaa vai
devaashchhandobhirimaa.c.nllokaananapajayyamabhyajayan.h .
mahaa{\m+} indro vajrabaahuH shhoDashii sharma yachchhatu .. 48..

I-48: May Sri favour me. May Alakshmi connected with me and mine be destroyed. The gods having Vishnu for their chief (who is the perpetual abode of Sri) by the help of (the means prescribed in) the Vedas won these worlds for themselves free from the fear of enemies. May Indra armed with thunderbolt and worshipful moon grant us happiness.

naaraayaNaH paraM brahma tattva.n naaraayaNaH paraH .
naaraayaNaH paro jyotiraatmaa naarayaNaH paraH .. 4..
naaraayaNaH paro dhyaataa dhyaana.n naaraayaNaH paraH .
yachcha kiJNchijjagatyasmin dR^ishyate shruuyate.api vaa .
antarbahishcha tatsarva.n vyaapya naaraayaNaH sthitaH .. 5..

XIII-4: Narayana is the Supreme Reality designated as Brahman. Narayana is the highest (Self). Narayana is the supreme Light (described in the Upanishads). Narayana is the infinite Self. [Narayana is the most excellent meditator and meditation.]

XIII-5: Whatsoever there is in this world known through perception (because of their proximity) or known through report (because of their distance), all that is pervaded by Narayana within and without.

hari{\m+} harantamanuyanti devaa vishvasyeshaana.n vR^ishhabhaM
matiinaam.h .
brahmasaruupamanu medamaagaadayanaM maa vivadhiirvikramasva .. 1..

XLIX-1: Like servants gods follow Hari who is the Lord of the universe, who leads all thoughts as the foremost leader and who absorbs into Himself the universe at the time of dissolution (or who destroys the sins of devotees). May this path to liberation taught in the Vedas having the same form as Brahman open itself to me. Deprive not me of that. Strive to secure it for me.

Omkara
20 December 2012, 04:34 PM
Actually, I think the figure comes from a statement in one of the puranas listing the different divisions of the Vedas, against which one can compare with the known shrutis still extant. This was quoted by Satyanarayana dasa in his translation of the Tattva Sandarbha. If memory serves, it was a genuine quote.

Satyananrayana is actually not an ISKCONite as per my understanding.

If you see the rest of my post,I was contesting the claim that 94% of the vedas are missing and not the quote itself.Shankara,Ramanuja,Srikantha,Madhva,Bhaskara and many other early acharyas have quoted from many shakhas that are no ponger extant,but there is no sign of the 100 and1000 shakhas that the yajur and sama veda are supposed to have.It is generally considered that the numbers simply mean a large number.Also the methodology is faulty.They have simply calculated no.of shakhas of any veda divided by total no. of extant and non extant shakhas of all vedas.This does not take into account the differences in size between the vedas.One shakha of the rig veda is bigger than one shakha each of the other vedas put together.Also most shakhas have the majority of their hymns the same.Only a small no. of hymns is unique to a shakha.For these reasons and several others I think that the 94% figure is a highly inflated one.

Besides the article in which this claim appears asks us to throw away all shruti and smriti on this account which I did not like- http://gosai.com/writings/the-supremacy-of-srimad-bhagavatam-over-the-vedas

philosoraptor
20 December 2012, 05:49 PM
If you see the rest of my post,I was contesting the claim that 94% of the vedas are missing and not the quote itself.Shankara,Ramanuja,Srikantha,Madhva,Bhaskara and many other early acharyas have quoted from many shakhas that are no ponger extant,but there is no sign of the 100 and1000 shakhas that the yajur and sama veda are supposed to have.It is generally considered that the numbers simply mean a large number.Also the methodology is faulty.They have simply calculated no.of shakhas of any veda divided by total no. of extant and non extant shakhas of all vedas.This does not take into account the differences in size between the vedas.One shakha of the rig veda is bigger than one shakha each of the other vedas put together.Also most shakhas have the majority of their hymns the same.Only a small no. of hymns is unique to a shakha.For these reasons and several others I think that the 94% figure is a highly inflated one.

Besides the article in which this claim appears asks us to throw away all shruti and smriti on this account which I did not like- http://gosai.com/writings/the-supremacy-of-srimad-bhagavatam-over-the-vedas

It is not a percentage based on the number of mantras, but on the number of shakhas described in scripture vs number known to be extant. This was obvious from the Satyanarayana's analysis of the quote in TS, and I don't think he ever claimed otherwise. I haven't followed the gosai people so I don't know what they say.

Omkara
20 December 2012, 08:23 PM
It is not a percentage based on the number of mantras, but on the number of shakhas described in scripture vs number known to be extant. This was obvious from the Satyanarayana's analysis of the quote in TS, and I don't think he ever claimed otherwise. I haven't followed the gosai people so I don't know what they say.

That's the point.If you take a petcentage based on the number of mantras and then say that percentage of the vedas is missing,it is misleading.If you want to calculate the amount of vedic literature missing,you must calculate the number of verses missing.They are just trying to inflate the number as large as possible so that they can say that there is no point in consulting the vedas because only fragments are left.

philosoraptor
20 December 2012, 08:34 PM
That's the point.If you take a petcentage based on the number of mantras and then say that percentage of the vedas is missing,it is misleading.If you want to calculate the amount of vedic literature missing,you must calculate the number of verses missing.They are just trying to inflate the number as large as possible so that they can say that there is no point in consulting the vedas because only fragments are left.

I think the point of counting the shakhas is that each one represents a unified teaching of some sort. That was the way I took it when I heard the percentage, not as percentage of mantras lost.

Omkara
20 December 2012, 08:54 PM
I think the point of counting the shakhas is that each one represents a unified teaching of some sort. That was the way I took it when I heard the percentage, not as percentage of mantras lost.

The entire argument comes from one pf Jiva Goswamin's sandarbhas(can't remember which one) where he says that there is no point consulting the shruti as almost all of it is lost and one must instead go to the puranas.From there he argues that the bhagavatam is the best of all puranas and muat be consulted when other puranas contradict each other.The 94% figure is used in this context to argue that almost all of the shruti is lost, ao there ia no point in consulting yhe fragmenta.Frankly it is a pathetic excuse by which gaudiya vaishnavas refrain from commenting on the upanishads.That would be very interesting.I wonder how they would fit in their theology that Brahman is an entity different from the supreme being and an efflugence of the Supreme being into which some jivas merge.This actually entails the destruction of the jiva,contradicting numerous pramanas.

philosoraptor
20 December 2012, 09:02 PM
The entire argument comes from one pf Jiva Goswamin's sandarbhas(can't remember which one) where he says that there is no point consulting the shruti as almost all of it is lost and one must instead go to the puranas.

He actually does not say that. What he does say is that there are limitations in studying the Vedas, of which one is that they are limited to the twice-born varnas only while another is that they are not present in toto. And this is in Tattva-Sandarbha, the first of the six sandarbhas. Both he and the other Chaitanya followers do quote from shruti, though they are not a traditional shruti-parampara.

Tapasya
21 December 2012, 05:26 AM
Namaste

In my humble opinion, I’m not sure that it is accurate to statethat shruti can be lost. If one accepts the Veda as apaurusheya shruti how can Itcease to exist? In fact, more generally just because something is not commonly availabledoes not necessarily mean that it is nonextant.


Pranam

Sahasranama
05 January 2013, 11:40 AM
In my humble opinion, I’m not sure that it is accurate to statethat shruti can be lost. If one accepts the Veda as apaurusheya shruti how can Itcease to exist? In fact, more generally just because something is not commonly availabledoes not necessarily mean that it is nonextant.

Shruti is never lost, but the parts that are revealed to human beings over time become forgotten and is revealed again later. This goes on in cycles.

Sahasranama
05 January 2013, 12:01 PM
The 94% figure is a fantasy of iskconites who want us to throw away the vedas and accept the bhagavata purana as the major pramana.
Firstly,it is foolish to take it that there are 100 and thousand shakhas of the yajur and sama veda but only 21 and nine shakhas of the rig and atharva veda.Most scholars take 100 and thousand as symbolic of a large number as is often used in vedic literature.
Also,most shakhas contain a lot of material from other shakhas,so that further reduces the amount of verses actually lost.Further,the sama and yajur veda contain a lot of material from the Rig Veda.I would estimate about 30% of the vedas is lost.I cited part of that article to show the relation between the vedas and itihasa and puranas. I have similar quotes in another book, but it was more convenient to copy them from that website. I agree that we cannot say exactly how many percent of the Vedas is still available among human kind. I don't think it's useful to speculate on any exact figure.

The 100 shakhas for the yajurveda is not hard to imagine. It makes sense that there are more shakhas of the yajurveda than the Rigveda. The Rigveda is first of all much bigger than the yajurveda. Secondly, the yajurveda deals with rituals and we already know that many shrauta rituals have become lost. I only agree that the number 1000 for Sama Veda is not entirely accurate if we consider that it could have meant a number close to thousand, like 1008 or 994. I do not think that the 1000 number merely means "a lot." It also makes sense that the Sama Veda has that many branches. The Sama Veda consists of Rig mantras converted into Sama chantings. One shakha of the Sama Veda only has a fraction of the mantras of the Rig. Second, one mantra of the Rig can be converted into more than one Sama chanting. If you consider this, the 1000 number should not seem that hard to imagine.

These figures come from the Vishnu Purana. Vyasa is said to have collected whatever of the Vedas was known in his time and passed this knowledge on to his students. Since vyasa lived in Dvapara, it is possible that the Vedas in Satya yuga were even more voluminous. Indologists will consider this story from the Vishnu Purana to be fantasy, because they can't possible imagine one person collecting, remembering and passing on this much literature. Indologists are very quick to doubt that one Patanjali could have been a master of Ayurveda, Yoga and Grammar as he is considered traditionally in India, but they don't doubt that Leonardo Da Vinci was a master of so many arts and sciences. In these matters it's better not to listen to so called "scholars" who consider this information to be symbolic.

Although, I do not agree with the Gaudiya conclusion to discard all other scriptures and rely solely on the Srimad Bhagavata Purana, this information and pramana from shruti itself underscores the importance of understanding shruti in combination with the itihasas and puranas.

philosoraptor
31 January 2013, 12:19 PM
These mantras are from the authentic draviDa-patha of the mahAnArAyaNa upaniShad, of the kRiShNa yajur-veda:

sahasrashIrSham devaM vishvAkShaM vishvashambhuvam |
vishvaM nArAyaNaM devamakSharaM paramaM prabhum || MNU 90 ||

The Lord who has a thousand heads, who has His eyes everywhere, who works out the good of all the worlds, who is the immutable and the Supreme Lord, who is the bestower of the fruits of all the deeds, is nArAyaNa who is all this universe.

vishvataH paramAM nityaM vishvaM nArAyaNaNg harim |
vishvamevedaM puruShastadvishvamupajIvati || MNU 91 ||

He is the most supreme and the eternal on account of His being in everything. This universe is nArAyaNa, hari. All this universe is puruSha alone. This universe lives on account of that puruSha.

nArAyaNa paraM brahma tattvaM nArAyaNaH paraH |
nArAyaNa paro jotirAtmA nArAyaNaH paraH || MNU 93 ||

nArAyaNa is the supreme brahman. nArAyaNa is the Supreme Reality. nArAyaNa is the Supreme Light. nArAyaNa is the Supreme Self.

yachcha ki~nchajjagatyasmin dRishyate shrUyate'pi vA |
antarbahishcha tat sarvaM vyApya nArAyaNaH sthitaH || MNU 94 ||

Whatsoever object is seen or heard in this world, nArAyaNa resides pervading all those objects with and without.

anantamavyayam kavigaM samudre 'ntaM vishvashambhuvam | MNU 95 |

The infinite, the immutable, the omniscient, the one whose abode is in the ocean, the one who is the inner controller of Shambhu.

I don't have the Sanskrit for mantra 1.92 with me, but this one indicates that the nArAyaNa is "shivam" or auspicious and that He is "Atmeshvara" or "His own lord." This is a clear instance of the word "shivam" being used in a secondary sense, rather than as a proper noun, which nArAyaNa always is according to pAnini's rules.

philosoraptor
01 February 2013, 08:07 AM
patiM vishvasyAtmeshvaraNg shAshvataNg shivamachyutam |
nArAyaNam mahAj~neyaM vishvAtmAnaM parAyaNam || MNU 92 ||

nArAyaNa is the master of the universe. This paramatman is the ruler of Himself. He is the eternally auspicious and He is achyuta or unchanging. This nArAyaNa is the highest object to be known. He is the innerself of all. He is the supreme object of attainment or the highest goal. (mahAnArAyaNa upaniShad 92)

Omkara
01 February 2013, 09:18 AM
anantamavyayam kavigaM samudre 'ntaM vishvashambhuvam | MNU 1.95 |

The infinite, the immutable, the omniscient, the one whose abode is in the ocean, the one who is the inner controller of Shambhu.



How does 'vishvashambhuvam' mean 'inner controller of sambhu? As far as I can make out, it means 'beneficient to the world'.

philosoraptor
01 February 2013, 09:49 AM
How does 'vishvashambhuvam' mean 'inner controller of sambhu? As far as I can make out, it means 'beneficient to the world'.

I'm not sure, as I had the same doubt. This section follows a section describing dahara-vidya and precedes another one also describing dahara-vidya, but to be honest, I rather like shambhu in the adjectival sense as it reinforces my view that nArAyaNa can be correctly addressed by anya-devata names. Then again, I don't recognize the construction of "vishvashambhuvam." This might be another example of Vedic usage with which I am not familiar. Any input on this welcome.

The translator is a highly respected Sri Vaishnava scholar from one of the Banglore maths, and although he translated all of the mantras according to Sri Ranga Ramanuja Muni's commentary, he only published parts of the commentary. I am hoping that his unabridged translation of the commentary, which is supposedly coming out soon, will explain this translation more fully.

Omkara
01 February 2013, 09:54 AM
I'm not sure if you have this aldredy, but there is a SriVaishnava commentary on these verses on the internet here- http://www.srihayagrivan.org/ebooks/094_na.pdf

philosoraptor
01 February 2013, 10:08 AM
I'm not sure if you have this aldredy, but there is a SriVaishnava commentary on these verses on the internet here- http://www.srihayagrivan.org/ebooks/094_na.pdf

Looks like they also translate it as "inner controller of shambhu."

Interesting.

philosoraptor
01 February 2013, 10:13 AM
From the above e-book:


In the very first mantram, the word “viSvam” appears thrice: “viSvAksham,
viSva Sambhuvam and viSvam nArAyaNam devam”. The word “viSvam” is the first word of SrI VishNu SahasranAmam to offer salutations to SrI VishNu
nArAyaNan:

“viSvam vishNur-vashaTkAro bhUtabhavya-bhavatprabhu:”.

The first namaskAram here is: “om viSvAya nama:”. “viSvam” means “full in all respects” according to Swamy ParASara BhaTTar. The word “viSvam” meaning ‘entirety’ has been derived from the root “viS” with the addition of the suffix “kvan”. This derivation according to grammar points out the meaning of “viSvam” as someone “who enters all parts”. The word “viSvam” points out then to the cardinal doctrine of “antaryAmi Brahmam” of brhadAraNyaka Upanishad.

“viSvam” also means Universe. The One who enters all vastus of Universe is also the possessor of limitless glory. The nArAyaNAnuvAkam celebrates at many places the indwellership of the Lord, in all cetanams and acetanams (sentient and insentient) of the Universe, He creates and goes on to extol His ananta kalyANa guNams. The importance of the word “viSvam” from the Vedic point of view is attested by the oldest of Vedams, Rg Vedam having 90 rks in its ten kANDams to celebrate the viSva sAmrAT (viSvasya rAjA) aspects of the Lord.

He is saluted as the foundation of this world (viSvAdhAran), creator/architect of the world (viSva karmA), protector of the world (viSva rakshakan) and viSva mUrti.

philosoraptor
01 February 2013, 10:44 AM
Another mantra of interest, especially to Krishna devotees. This one is actually a prayer to Earth goddess from the mahAnArAyaNa upaniShad:

uddhR^itAsi varAheNa kR^iShNena shatabAhunA |
bhUmirdhenurdharaNi lokadhAriNI || MNU 31 ||

You were lifted up by Krishna with His hundred arms, in the form of Varaaha. You are well-known as Bhoomi, Dhenu, Dharani, and the supporter of worlds (mahAnArAyaNa upaniShad 31).

This is of course interesting because it refers to an event that is described in the purANa-s, and also specifically refers to the Lord as "Krishna." That being said, the context does not support the idea that "Krishna" means "devakinandana" here, but more likely is being used as a name for the Lord in a general way, or possibly as an adjective describing varAha (who is also sometimes depicted with blackish fur).

smaranam
01 February 2013, 05:42 PM
Another mantra of interest, especially to Krishna devotees. This one is actually a prayer to Earth goddess from the mahAnArAyaNa upaniShad:

uddhR^itAsi varAheNa kR^iShNena shatabAhunA |
bhUmirdhenurdharaNi lokadhAriNI || MNU 31 ||

You were lifted up by Krishna with His hundred arms, in the form of Varaaha. You are well-known as Bhoomi, Dhenu, Dharani, and the supporter of worlds (mahAnArAyaNa upaniShad 31).

This is of course interesting because it refers to an event that is described in the purANa-s, and also specifically refers to the Lord as "Krishna." That being said, the context does not support the idea that "Krishna" means "devakinandana" here, but more likely is being used as a name for the Lord in a general way, or possibly as an adjective describing varAha (who is also sometimes depicted with blackish fur).

praNAm

Thanks for this reference. KRshNa also means All-Attractive (kRsh --- AkarshaN) . Not just black although black attracts all wavelengths/frequencies of light and absorbs all colours. In which case, it does point to KRshNa the all-attractive. Who can be more all-attractive than the Supreme Person, Who is central (center of attraction) to all ? All-attractive shows most completeness. Shrila PrabhupAd elaborates on this.

However, ChhAndogya Upanishad Part One, Chapter 17, verse 6 says:


6. Ghora, of the line of Angirasa, communicated this teaching to Krishna, the son of Devaki—and it quenched Krishna’s thirst for any other knowledge—and said: "When a man approaches death he should take refuge in these three thoughts: ‘Thou art indestructible (akshata),’ ‘Thou art unchanging (aprachyuta),’ and ‘Thou art the subtle prana.’ "On this subject there are two Rik—verses:

(KRshNa set a good example for humans to follow by taking diksha, going to Rshis for instruction, respecting and honourng His elders, Gurus, Rshis, following ettiquette (like washing Sudama brAhman's feet), supporting yajn~a-BrAhmaNs, and loving all.)

Similarly, KRshNa is VAsudev not just because He is son of Vasudev, but because He resides everywhere (vasu). Vasudev Maharaj was so named because VAsudev was to appear as His son.

This applies to SankarshaN (BalarAm) who attracts, takes away vices etc. not only becs He was transfered from Devaki's womb to RohiNi's (Vasudev Maharaj's other wife)
and to Aniruddha who is inconquerable, and the intelligence in microcosm (individual).

VAsudev-SankarshaN-Pradyumna-Aniruddha (chaturvyuha of NArAyaN)

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~

smaranam
29 September 2013, 12:20 PM
~~~~~

Sudas Paijavana
29 September 2013, 12:42 PM
Pranam-s,

The following is a verse both Smaranam and I cherish and praise:

tā́ vāṃ vā́stūni uśmasi gámadhyai
yátra gā́vo bhū́riśr̥ṅgā ayā́saḥ
átrā́ha tád urugāyásya vŕ̥ṣṇaḥ
paramám padám áva bhāti bhū́ri (R.V.1.154.6)

We pray (to Shri Vishnu) that you may both [both = sacrificer and the sacrificer's wife] go to those regions where the
many-pointed and wide-spreading rays (of light expand); for here the supreme
station of the many-hymned [= who is much invoked], the showerer (of benefits), shines (with) great (splendour).

smaranam
29 September 2013, 01:06 PM
I am very sorry. I took that not from Rg Veda original, but from a purport to Chaitanya CharitrAmrut that someone gave a link to here today itself.

I wonder how they got that as KRshNa?

I shall delete the post :o

Moral of the story (for the second time): Never take quotes from secondary sources.

_/\_

smaranam
29 September 2013, 01:16 PM
It is from here:

http://vedabase.com/en/cc/madhya/23/116


Śrī Nīlakaṇṭha confirms the existence of Goloka Vṛndāvana-dhāma by quoting the Ṛg-saṁhitā (Ṛg Veda 1.154.6):

tā vāṁ vāstūny uśmasi gamadhyai
 yatra gāvo bhūri-śṛṅgā ayāsaḥ
atrāha tad urugāyasya kṛṣṇaḥ
 paramaṁ padam avabhāti bhūri

“We wish to go to Your [Rādhā’s and Kṛṣṇa’s] beautiful houses, about which cows with large, excellent horns are wandering. Yet distinctly shining on this earth is that supreme abode of Yours that showers joy on all, O Urugāya [Kṛṣṇa, who is much praised].”

smaranam
29 September 2013, 01:28 PM
The only thing I can say about that translation is that KRshNa is a VrushNi
(belonging to the VrushNi clan).

Sudas Paijavana
29 September 2013, 01:30 PM
It is from here:

http://vedabase.com/en/cc/madhya/23/116

Pranam-s,

It seems that the verse was altered on purpose by Nīlakaṇṭha, and in the process, it was unfortunately destroyed and it's truth eradicated.

I am deeply saddened by the carelessness that was conducted by altering a RigVedic verse by diluting one of its phonemes.

When the sound of even just one phoneme is altered, the verse becomes defunct, and in the process it contaminates the hymn the verse in question in which it is found.

For example, let us take a look at the Gayatri Verse from 3.62.10:

tat savitur vareNiyam bhargo devasya dhImahi dhiyo yo naH pracodayAt

Let us change "bhargo" to "mArgo". What happens when we change the phoneme in the verse above? It becomes defunct and is in the process voided.

Please take a look at the following to acknowledge that the word is vRshNaH, instead of kRshNah:

http://www.sanskritweb.net/rigveda/rv01-137.pdf {<--- scroll down to hymn 154, second part of line 6)

Sudas Paijavana
29 September 2013, 01:35 PM
The only thing I can say about that translation is that KRshNa is a VrushNi
(belonging to the VrushNi clan).

Pranam-s,

And, I understand that. But, the word in question is vRshNah. In the sentence of 1.154.6, vRshNah is an adjective, not a noun, therefore, the word cannot apply to the VrishNis (the Yadu tribe of Shri Krishna). Furthermore, vRshNah's root is vRshan, not vRshaN nor vRshNa. It's a reddish color. It applies to the solar rays of the sun; and in this verse, Shri Vishnu is being lauded with qualities of an Aditya as well as that of Shri Agni.

smaranam
29 September 2013, 01:38 PM
Pranam-s,

It seems that the verse was altered on purpose by Nīlakaṇṭha, and in the process, it was unfortunately destroyed and it's truth eradicated.
praNAm

I understand completely, and that is very sad.

However, two things
1. Wherever you see gAvo, go (cows), bhuri - shRunga (horns) in the vedas, the GauDiya VaishNavs are going to say this is about Goloka Gokul VRndAvana - see how differently the same sanskrit can be translated.

2. Even if this NilakanTha (I don't even know who he is) had left it as vRshNah, can that point to vrushNi? Because KRshNa was a VrushNi on earth.

_/\_

smaranam
29 September 2013, 01:42 PM
Pranam-s,

And, I understand that. But, the word in question is vRshNah. In the sentence of 1.154.6, vRshNah is an adjective, not a noun, therefore, the word cannot apply to the VrishNis (the Yadu tribe of Shri Krishna). Furthermore, vRshNah's root is vRshan, not vRshaN nor vRshNa. It's a reddish color. It applies to the solar rays of the sun; and in this verse, Shri Vishnu is being lauded with qualities of an Aditya as well as that of Shri Agni.
praNAm Sudasji

Thanks for all this education.
I see you had already answered my question:

2. Even if this NilakanTha (I don't even know who he is) had left it as vRshNah, can that point to vrushNi? Because KRshNa was a VrushNi on earth.

You are one of the few pursuers of and very knowledgable in the Vedas - especially Rg saMhItA, that we have on HDF.

om namo nArAyaNAya ~

Sri Vaishnava
29 September 2013, 02:26 PM
However, ChhAndogya Upanishad Part One, Chapter 17, verse 6 says:


(KRshNa set a good example for humans to follow by taking diksha, going to Rshis for instruction, respecting and honourng His elders, Gurus, Rshis, following ettiquette (like washing Sudama brAhman's feet), supporting yajn~a-BrAhmaNs, and loving all.)



srI ranga rAmAnuja muni, using grammar, derives that sentence another way as follows:

"The rishi Ghora Angirasa practiced this Purusha Yajna with the dedication as "This is sub-servient to Krishna, the Son of Devaki". That Ghora Angirasa had not thirst, as he came upon BrahmavidyA through this. At the last moment of his life, he said to Brahman, "you are eternal, you are full of auspicious qualities, you are the subtle truth enlivening this universe".

The acharyan explains "KrishnAya" as "KrishnaseshabhUta" - for the sake of Krishna (the rishi is a sesha).

One must note that even in mantrAs, the "Aya" shabda denotes "for the sake of-", or service performed for the deity.

ityuktvA means anusandhAna.

In my opinion, this is the best interpretation. No other sampradAya has interpreted it this way. But to each his own.

philosoraptor
29 September 2013, 08:19 PM
srI ranga rAmAnuja muni, using grammar, derives that sentence another way as follows:

"The rishi Ghora Angirasa practiced this Purusha Yajna with the dedication as "This is sub-servient to Krishna, the Son of Devaki". That Ghora Angirasa had not thirst, as he came upon BrahmavidyA through this. At the last moment of his life, he said to Brahman, "you are eternal, you are full of auspicious qualities, you are the subtle truth enlivening this universe".

The acharyan explains "KrishnAya" as "KrishnaseshabhUta" - for the sake of Krishna (the rishi is a sesha).

One must note that even in mantrAs, the "Aya" shabda denotes "for the sake of-", or service performed for the deity.

ityuktvA means anusandhAna.

In my opinion, this is the best interpretation. No other sampradAya has interpreted it this way. But to each his own.

I could be mistaken, but I believe madhvAchArya interprets this reference as being to that of a sage who happens to be named kRiShNa, and who also happens to have a mother named devakI.

I liked shrI ranga rAmAnuja's interpretation better, personally. :-)