Sruthi resolves the omniscience-free will paradox

[wundermonk]

Greetings all,

As Krishna reveals a minute part of his transcendental majesty and mystique to Arjuna (picturized below):

http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/ea6/1f7/ea61f74e-7849-4cb0-bd96-168ef3304b20

(Chapter 11 of the BG), Arjuna says:


All these sons of Dhrtarastra together with the hosts of monarchs, Bhishma, Drona and Karna along with the leading warriors of our side Hasten to enter Your fearful mouths with terrible fangs. Some, caught between the teeth are seen with their heads crushed to powder.

So, Arjuna already sees the future where there will be death of Kauravas.

Yet, Krishna absolutely grants Arjuna free will in the closing chapter of the BG:


Thus the knowledge, the mystery of mysteries, has been declared to you by Me. Reflecting on it fully, do what you will.

In my view, if one accepts sruthi (BG) as pramana (source of knowledge) then there is no omniscience vs free will paradox. Krishna HIMSELF states that Arjuna has free will even though Arjuna, being blessed with divine eyes, saw the future much earlier. If Krishna states so, it must be true.

So, there is no incompatibility between omniscience and free will.

Thoughts?

[devotee]

Namaste WM,

Yes but I still see a paradox. The death of the warriors is predestined ... Lord Krishna declares that they are already killed by Him and Arjuna just has to take the credit for it. If Arjuna's taking credit for the killing of the warriors was predestined, Arjuna can have no free will to decide whether to participate in the war or not. He will be forced to participate.

So, Bhagwad Gita does not make it clear how Arjuna still enjoys free will when the events are predestined. In a free will situation, there must be something which is not known ... and the fate of that unknown event would be decided by how the agent acts.

Can you explain this ?

OM

[McKitty]

Vanakkam,


If it's not the arrow of Arjun, then it's the jaws of Time (it's a part of Krishna also) that will break these warriors. In the end, isn't the same ?


Aum Namah Shivaya

[wundermonk]

If it's not the arrow of Arjun, then it's the jaws of Time (it's a part of Krishna also) that will break these warriors. In the end, isn't the same ?

Yes, Krishna DOES state that eventually all bodies will disintegrate even with no effort on Arjuna's part.


I am the world-destroying Time. Manifesting Myself fully, I have begun to destroy the worlds here. Even without You, none of the warriors arrayed in the hostile ranks shall survive.

Although, it is unclear to me why you state that both would be the same.

[wundermonk]

So, Bhagwad Gita does not make it clear how Arjuna still enjoys free will when the events are predestined. In a free will situation, there must be something which is not known ... and the fate of that unknown event would be decided by how the agent acts.

Can you explain this ?


Let me try. :p

The lack of proof for the existence of "something" does NOT mean that "something" does NOT exist. So, even if it is impossible to prove OR disprove that omniscience entails free will, sruthi as pramana trumps proof techniques.

So, the question boils down to whether


Thus the knowledge, the mystery of mysteries, has been declared to you by Me. Reflecting on it fully, do what you will.

implies that Arjuna has free will or not.

If it does imply that Arjuna has free will, then he does despite Krishna's omniscience - for sruthi trumps pratyaksha (perception) or anumana (inference) in such matters.

[philosoraptor]

Namaste WM,

Yes but I still see a paradox. The death of the warriors is predestined ... Lord Krishna declares that they are already killed by Him and Arjuna just has to take the credit for it. If Arjuna's taking credit for the killing of the warriors was predestined, Arjuna can have no free will to decide whether to participate in the war or not. He will be forced to participate.

So, Bhagwad Gita does not make it clear how Arjuna still enjoys free will when the events are predestined. In a free will situation, there must be something which is not known ... and the fate of that unknown event would be decided by how the agent acts.

Can you explain this ?

OM

Sure. Think about it this way. I have free will to decide whether to buy a plane ticket to Bombay or New York. However, once I board the plane, it will take me to the intended destination, and no amount of changing my mind will change the plane's course. Thus, I have free will, but my free will is still dependent on other factors. Arjuna was destined to fight the battle, but he had the choice not to. He just ended up making the right choice, and the fact that he would make the right choice was known to Sri Krishna in advance.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

One need not go all the way to the 18th chapter within the bhāgavad gītā to find freedom of action:

Kṛṣṇa says the following in the bhāgavad gītā (chapter 2, 47th śloka)
karmaṇi evādhikāras te
mā phalesu kadācana
mā karma-phala-hetur bhūr
mā te saṅgo'stv akarmaṇi

This says, you certainly (eva) have ādhikāra (claim , right , privilege, control) of your (te or ti) karmaṇi (of your actions) , but never or not (mā) of its fruits (phalesu) .


praṇām

[devotee]

Namaste,



The lack of proof for the existence of "something" does NOT mean that "something" does NOT exist. So, even if it is impossible to prove OR disprove that omniscience entails free will, sruthi as pramana trumps proof techniques.


I must agree that it is a smart answer ! :)


karmaṇi evādhikāras te
mā phalesu kadācana
mā karma-phala-hetur bhūr
mā te saṅgo'stv akarmaṇi

Does it mean that we have discretion to decide how to act but the results are already decided and known to God ? So, we do have free will in action but the results are pre-decided ?

If that is so, how does my act make any difference at all ? So, even if I don't act, the result must be same ! That gives rise to AkarmaNyata and makes the verse meaningless "Ma te sangostva akarmaNi" ! Why should I act at all, if the result is going to be what is already decided and my acting or not acting doesn't make a difference ?

I am feeling good on playing a role of Devil's advocate ! :)

OM

[rcscwc]

Namaste WM,

Yes but I still see a paradox. The death of the warriors is predestined ... Lord Krishna declares that they are already killed by Him and Arjuna just has to take the credit for it. If Arjuna's taking credit for the killing of the warriors was predestined, Arjuna can have no free will to decide whether to participate in the war or not. He will be forced to participate.

So, Bhagwad Gita does not make it clear how Arjuna still enjoys free will when the events are predestined. In a free will situation, there must be something which is not known ... and the fate of that unknown event would be decided by how the agent acts.

Can you explain this ?

OM
Arjuna does see the Kaurava's death, but by Krishna. He is not shown as author of that event. Mind you, Kauravas were ALL killed by Bhima not Arjuna.

Had Arjuna not agree to fight at all, what then? In that case Krishna's office a charioteer would end and He might take up the arms Himself.