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Znanna
17 February 2007, 02:56 PM
http://www.christianaggression.org/item_display.php?type=ARTICLES&id=1130133787
(Fair use rules!)


Can Hinduism face the onslaught of Project Thessalonica?


(snip)

Project Thessalonica is a sub-project of Joshua Project II. Joshua Project II set the scope and strategy for converting the "heathen" of the world in 10-40 window (regions that lie between the latitudes of 10 and 40 degrees north) whereas project Thessalonica (called PT) prioritizes the tasks to be taken. Joshua Project II strategized the methodology called 'Adopt-a-peoples' wherein every mission agency or church adopted a 'people group'. Tribals were the first and easy missionary targets. Unfortunately the missionary activity didn't weaken Hinduism as the church strategists had anticipated - many of the converts still celebrated and attended Hindu festivals and continued to follow Hindu traditions. As a counter measure Project Thessalonica was started in 2004. Before getting into the details of Project Thessalonica it will be useful to look at the origins of the name of the project.
Thessalonica was a major port city strategically located at the junction of the main land route from Italy to the east and the main route from the Danube down to the Aegean Sea. It was the capital of the Roman province of Macedonia, a free city ruled by a popular assembly and magistrates. The people of this city were rich, technologically advanced and culturally distinct. Paul and Silas, during the Apostle's second missionary journey, visited Thessalonica to preach the Gospel and propagate Christianity. However, Paul's teachings received a lukewarm response from the people. Some locals irritated by Paul's teachings got a hold of Jason and his brothers, who were hosting Paul, and took them to city officials. They were charged with harboring traitors, but faced no physical harm. They were eventually made to post a bond and set free. In 390 AD, the Christian ruler Theodosius the Great, punished a revolt by the inhabitants of the city by massacring more than 7000 people. Much of the city was eventually converted to Christianity.
A few observations about the city of Thessalonica at the time of Paul will make its relevance to today's world clear. First the city was strategically located in terms of access to other cities by both land and sea. Before their forced conversion to Christianity, its inhabitants were economically and culturally prosperous. Perhaps more importantly they were tolerant, which explains why, inspire of provocation, the lives of Paul, Jason and his brothers were spared. The government was also indifferent to the missionaries and the adverse impact of their activities on the people.
Hindus in India today are in the same situation as the people of Thessalonica found themselves in at the time of Paul. They are prosperous economically and culturally and extremely tolerant of other people and faiths. The government is completely indifferent to the activities of the missionaries in India, in spite of the tremendous damage that missionary activity has wrought on the local population all over India. Seen in this context, the choice of "Thessalonica" as a name for a project focused on converting Hindus of India to Christianity seems particularly apt.
Project Thessalonica aims to stop or limit Hindu activity by converting people who form the pillars of Hindu culture, festivals, traditions and activity. Traditionally missionaries hate any public expression or display of heathen religions in the form of festivals and temples. Missions want to ensure that no new temple construction activity starts. With this objective they are converting masons, craftsmen and others involved in temple construction activity. The First Baptist Church of Nashville, Tennessee adopted towns where the annual Kumbh Mela takes place and has been actively converting the locals so that visitors face extreme hardship during their next visit trying to find services and supplies. Another mission group is adopting boatmen of Kasi where Hindus drop rice balls in river Ganges as an offering to their forefathers. The boatsmen are being trained in other fields so that they abandon this profession. They are making environmental groups raise the voice so that Ganesh processions, Kumbh Melas and Jagannath Rath Yatras are limited. One big worry seems to the extremely popular Hindu television programs. Christian agencies have decided on buying these prime slots at a premium and are actively working with programming sources. Over the past 20 years, missionaries also appear to have invested a lot in handling the political leadership, so much so that their activities appear to be almost immune to the ruling political party. It seems that a good section of media is also on their side to such an extent that any group opposing their activity finds itself identified as a militant or extremist group in the news media.

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=19364
http://www.scbaptist.org/news/article-1999941961.htm
http://www.scbaptist.org/news/article-1999969849.htm
http://resources.imb.org/index.cfm/fa/donation.giving/location/asia
http://www.fbcpowell.org/pages/missions/06MissionTrips_International.shtml
http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/bpnews.asp?ID=22238

ZN

atanu
18 February 2007, 01:14 AM
Namaskar,

I read the definition:

Project Thessalonica is “a vision to lead the church to engage every people group and city in South Asia with a church-planting movement strategy.”

Scary really for the planters not for us. Sanatana Dharma has had such assaults and spontaneously the planting goes in the opposite direction.

Good, honest, and rational people all over embrace sanatana dharma. The ill-motivated, due to lure of money or other motivations move away.

Sanatana Dharma, however is different from the caste ridden bigotry dominated so-called dharma.

Om Namah Shivayya

Agnideva
18 February 2007, 10:36 AM
Namaskar.

Sanatana Dharma, however is different from the caste ridden bigotry dominated so-called dharma.
Om Namah Shivayya

Well said Atanu!! Couldn't have said it any better myself. The so-called dharma of inequality, of highers and lowers, of stratification of human beings, of "holier than thou's" that is not Sanatana Dharma, that is adharma.

There are two key points Project Thessalonica is missing:
1. We don't live in 390 CE
2. Sanatana Dharma has tremendous capacity of revival, of contextualizing itself for the present time. It has done this again and again and again.

OM Namah Shivaya.

sm78
18 February 2007, 10:04 PM
....post deleted

atanu
19 February 2007, 05:01 AM
http://www.christianaggression.org/item_display.php?type=ARTICLES&id=1130133787
(Fair use rules!)


Can Hinduism face the onslaught of Project Thessalonica?

(snip)

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=19364
http://www.scbaptist.org/news/article-1999941961.htm
http://www.scbaptist.org/news/article-1999969849.htm
http://resources.imb.org/index.cfm/fa/donation.giving/location/asia
http://www.fbcpowell.org/pages/missions/06MissionTrips_International.shtml
http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/bpnews.asp?ID=22238

ZN


And isn't this parrallel to a much stronger mission of so-called globalisation --- which has more or less meant feeding potato chips and Coke. That happiness is in shiny materials is a more insidous delusion, which cripples from inside. Even today in newspaper I find a similar news of an economic offensive being planned by the World Bank to consolidate in Asia.

Before OPEC was formed one barrel of petroleum was bartered against a bottle of Coke.

Thus Josef Stigliz has suggested creating an Asian Monetary Fund, since in reality, the Asian countries are subsidising the US economy. Project Thessalonica and other such projects have business at their root.




Om Namah Shivayya

Ganeshprasad
20 February 2007, 09:24 AM
Pranam Atanu ji

The picture we see paints a wonderful story, but how natural is it though?

We all have heard of this story I think.

"scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The frog asks, "How do I know you won't sting me?" The scorpion says, "Because if I do, I will die too." The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream, the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown, but has just enough time to gasp "Why?" Replies the scorpion: "Its my nature..."

Conflicting human instincts that exist within each of us—the instinct to work toward civilization and order and the instinct to descend into savagery, violence, and chaos. We are constantly pulled between the two, torn apart, due to our insatiable desire and hate.
Civilization is built upon set of rules however unpalatable sometimes it may seem, but just like, although fire is pure, still there is smoke. Yet smoke does not make the fire impure.

Varnashram, as ordained by Lord Krishna, provided the framework for the gradual progress for the society in harmony.





Good, honest, and rational people all over embrace sanatana dharma. The ill-motivated, due to lure of money or other motivations move away.

There are all kind of people that embrace Dharma for instance Krishna says in BG

Four types of virtuous ones worship or seek Me, O Arjuna. They are: the distressed, the seeker of Self-knowledge, the seeker of wealth, and the wise one who knows the Supreme. (7.16)



Sanatana Dharma, however is different from the caste ridden bigotry dominated so-called dharma.


It is very easy to blame the Varna system, the chaos that we see, this inequality, exists in all society.
As the Kali yuga progress, Dharma has become more and more obscure; the standard has dropped in all the varna, not helped by the brutal occupation of foreigners. This is what Bharat has inherited what do you suggest we do? It is still the best system on offer if we strip out the discriminatory and egoistic superiority complex.

When there is disharmony in the society the first causality is the unity of the each varna, the greed and envy takes over.when Dharma further deteriorate the unity within the varna disintegrate. We can see the unity that was so solid, and we are so proud of, our joint family structure, is slowly but steadily being destroyed, as one becomes ever so selfish and greedy.

Lets not blame the Varna system, (this class ridden bigotry was exaggerated and exploited by the biggest class conscious, the Brits) it is our own further going away from Dharma that this system is being destroyed.



And isn't this parrallel to a much stronger mission of so-called globalisation --- which has more or less meant feeding potato chips and Coke. That happiness is in shiny materials is a more insidous delusion, which cripples from inside. Even today in newspaper I find a similar news of an economic offensive being planned by the World Bank to consolidate in Asia.

This is the mad chase that deludes us all, and further takes us away from Dharma. The whole education system is geared towards economic development where is the balance?


True in the presence of Lord Shiva everyone is at peace, to make that possible we have to make sacrifice and above all give up our envy and selfish desires.

When Dharma becomes center of our occupation, all differences are superfluous.

Jai Shree Krishna

sm78
20 February 2007, 09:58 AM
Namaste GP,

I agree with u 100%. Had posted on your lines, but deleted it on 2nd thought as it seemed incoherent jibberish.

atanu
20 February 2007, 11:08 AM
Pranam Atanu ji

The picture we see paints a wonderful story, but how natural is it though?

----
"scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The frog asks, "How do I know you won't sting me?" The scorpion says, "Because if I do, I will die too." The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream, the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown, but has just enough time to gasp "Why?" Replies the scorpion: "Its my nature..."

Conflicting human instincts that exist within each of us--------
Jai Shree Krishna


Jai Shree Krishna Ganesh Prasad Ji,


I agree with all that you say. Nicely put. I wish that we discuss more on the followings:

What motivation drives cowards such as bombers of Samjhauta Express?
What is the main reason of intolerance where one individual hates another and one group hates another, resorting to even killing?
How God may be viewing such acts and has He any responsibility? Who or what can be held responsible?Of course, I wish that the analysis remains dharmic and may not become culture specific. The hatred and intolerance is usually very general and all pervading.

Om Namah Shivayya

Ganeshprasad
20 February 2007, 06:04 PM
Pranam Sm and thank you
Pranam Atanu ji

I have a confession to make my first lines i.e. Scorpion story was meant to be posted on Strange Musing, if I had cause any confusion please accept my apologies although it equally applies to this thread, so no harm done I guess, the picture here certainly paints a grim story.



I wish that we discuss more on the followings:
What motivation drives cowards such as bombers of Samjhauta Express?


Those who carry out this crimes are zombies, but the real villains are the mastermind behind them.Who are they? too early to speculate. Who stands to gain, if there is gain at all.if this is work of misguided jihad’s then they shoot them self in the foot.

Pakistani think tank will not accept peaceful coexistence with India even if the top leader wishes their hate for us is too deep-rooted.

There is also this envy of our recent economic resurgent and here there would be many interested parties who would like to see India forever engaged in conflict, so as to keep us down, it is so easy to motivate the jihads against the Kafirs.

Would I discount our own? No because politics is a very dirty game.



What is the main reason of intolerance where one individual hates another and one group hates another, resorting to even killing?



Ignorance of Dharma. Me and mine mentality, not accepting what is allotted to me as enough. Never satisfied thus the search for pleasure goes on unabated in wrong direction, encroaches on someone else’s territory, who is equally frustrated by the pangs of material life.

Man never admits to its frailty and failures, always pretending, so this false show goes on, and the one without is thinking the other is better off then I am. The hate arises out of frustration

The Lord Says

dhyayato visayan pumsah
sangas tesupajayate
sangat sanjayate kamah
kamat krodho 'bhijayate

krodhad bhavati sammohah
sammohat smrti-vibhramah
smrti-bhramsad buddhi-naso
buddhi-nasat pranasyati

One develops attachment to sense objects by thinking about sense objects. Desire for sense objects comes from attachment to sense objects, and anger comes from unfulfilled desires. (2.62)

Delusion arises from anger. The mind is bewildered by delusion. Reasoning is destroyed when the mind is bewildered. One falls down (from the right path) when reasoning is destroyed. (2.63)



How God may be viewing such acts and has He any responsibility? Who or what can be held responsible?

God is impartial in such situation, though he does intervene in extreme situation and he listen to our prayers, even if he does not interfere he gives us the knowledge to overcome our difficulties.

nadatte kasyacit papam
na caiva sukrtam vibhuh
ajnanenavrtam jnanam
tena muhyanti jantavah

The Lord does not take the (responsibility for) good or evil deeds of anybody. The knowledge is covered by (the veil of) ignorance, thereby people are deluded. (5.15)




Of course, I wish that the analysis remains dharmic and may not become culture specific. The hatred and intolerance is usually very general and all pervading.

Yes without the Dharma’s constrains, that we still hold so dear, I doubt very much the aggressors would have survived in any other country except ours, instead they have more rights then us.

This is not to say we are above hate and desires, far from it yet it is Dharma that sustains us.

Om Namah Shivayya, Jai Shree Krishna

atanu
21 February 2007, 01:19 AM
-----Yes without the Dharma’s constrains, that we still hold so dear, I doubt very much the aggressors would have survived in any other country except ours, instead they have more rights then us.

This is not to say we are above hate and desires, far from it yet it is Dharma that sustains us.

Om Namah Shivayya, Jai Shree Krishna


Pranam Ganesh Prasad Ji,

Nice input. Can we have other views also?

I put in an additional query here.

Is the hatred that results in cowardice violence culture specific?
Or does such hatred sprout from 'Me amd Mine' on one hand and 'They and Other' on the other?

Which of the above two is more fundamental? (We know of violence/war etc., from the beginning of time. )


Om Namah Shivayya

Ganeshprasad
21 February 2007, 10:51 AM
Pranam Atanu ji



Can we have other views also?

Yes but of course, it is with constant Vichar one finds an answer or answers, so perhaps we can have your valued input on this.




I put in an additional query here.

You never let my mind to rest and i have answered this post with tired mind, so do forgive me if i dont make sense, but I thank you for engaging me.



Is the hatred that results in cowardice violence culture specific?


No, it is inherent in everyone; everyone is capable to reach the height of divinity or degenerate in to becoming lowest of the low.




Or does such hatred sprout from 'Me amd Mine' on one hand and 'They and Other' on the other?

Which of the above two is more fundamental?(We know of violence/war etc., from the beginning of time. )


Ignorance of both is the fundamental problem.

The world is full of duality, if you look at cosmic level, (sarg and vSarga) creation and destruction; the day is preceded by night.

The divine and the demonic are both born in this world.
dvau bhuta-sargau loke 'smin
daiva asura eva ca

The struggle between good and bad is, it seems, an eternal struggle.

Vidhya leads to Moksa or toward light aVidhya binds us in this world.

If we love one then we hate the other, unfortunately we sit on the fence sometimes pulled one way then the other and the struggle goes on.

aSatoma Sat Gamaya, tamasoMa joytir gamaya
MritumMa Amrutam gamaya



Om Namah Shivayya Jai Shree Krishna

Znanna
21 February 2007, 06:17 PM
If we love one then we hate the other, unfortunately we sit on the fence sometimes pulled one way then the other and the struggle goes on.


Love never dies.

I like to accept the notion that I love everyone, everything; there is no difference.

There is no hate, as there is no other.




ZN

Ganeshprasad
22 February 2007, 06:10 AM
Pranam Znanna



Love never dies.

I like to accept the notion that I love everyone, everything; there is no difference.

There is no hate, as there is no other.

Granted love is the highest expression, one can see that manifest in mother’s unconditional love for her children also, and yet resentment also sprouts as one notice the naughty one get the rewards.

Until the final goal is realized, such notion that there is no hate is futile in this dualistic world.
If I love peace and harmony (Shivam) then by default I hate violence and discord.


In the context of the discussion, the violence, the deceit against Dharma, I may learn to forgive the perpetrator, but I can not be indifferent to acts of violence and deceit.

Even the lord discriminates.

ahankaram balam darpam
kamam krodham ca samsritah
mam atma-para-dehesu
pradvisanto 'bhyasuyakah

Clinging to egoism, power, arrogance, lust, and anger; these malicious people hate Me (who dwells) in their own body and others' bodies. (16.18)
tan aham dvisatah kruran

samsaresu naradhaman
ksipamy ajasram asubhan
asurisv eva yonisu

I hurl these haters, cruel, sinful, and mean people of the world, into the wombs of demons again and again.
16.19)

Jai Shree Krishna

atanu
22 February 2007, 10:44 AM
----

The Lord does not take the (responsibility for) good or evil deeds of anybody. The knowledge is covered by (the veil of) ignorance, thereby people are deluded. (5.15)


I hurl these haters, cruel, sinful, and mean people of the world, into the wombs of demons again and again.
16.19)



Namaskar Ganesh Ji

1. I find the above a bit confusing. If Lord is not responsible for good or evil deeds of His subjects then how He gains the right to punish?

2. What is ignorance and what is knowledge?

3. If one gains the knowledge do the problems of the world go away for the Jnani and for others?


I am sorry for tiring you. But let us find out whether the hatred problem has ever been solved by any other method but by the gain of knowledge?

Anyone who sees any difference in Brahman is predicated to have great fall. So, where are the differences?


Om Namah Shivayya

Note: Would be delighted if Yajvan Ji, Nirotu Ji, Skill Ji and others (including Satay Ji) participated.

Ganeshprasad
22 February 2007, 01:01 PM
Pranam Atanu ji



1. I find the above a bit confusing. If Lord is not responsible for good or evil deeds of His subjects then how He gains the right to punish?

Precisely if it is my act how is it some how some one else’s responsibility? The judge passes a sentence based on laws. And what a judge this one is, he is so merciful that he is only providing what one is desiring. So if we desire lawlessness he gives an opportunity in the jungle where there are no laws.



2. What is ignorance and what is knowledge?

From relative to absolute these are both applicable.

If I violate a simple law i.e. cross the junction on red, the authority will come down heavily or worse I cause accident.

For those who seek mukti from this perpetual place of misery, seek the shelter of the absolute and there are paths, carved out by the rishy of yore or consult the shastras as recommended by the lord in chapter 16 of the Gita verse 24

tasmac chastram pramanam te
karyakarya-vyavasthitau
jnatva sastra-vidhanoktam
karma kartum iharhasi




3. If one gains the knowledge do the problems of the world go away for the Jnani and for others?


sreyo hi jnanam abhyasaj
jnanad dhyanam visisyate
dhyanat karma-phala-tyagas
tyagac chantir anantaram

advesta sarva-bhutanam
maitrah karuna eva ca
nirmamo nirahankarah
sama-duhkha-sukhah ksami

santustah satatam yogi
yatatma drdha-niscayah
mayy arpita-mano-buddhir
yo mad-bhaktah sa me priyah

Knowledge is better than mere ritualistic practice, meditation is better than mere knowledge, renunciation of the fruit of work is better than meditation, peace immediately follows the renunciation of (the attachment to) the fruit of work. (See more on renunciation in Chapter 18) (12.12)

One who does not hate any creature, who is friendly and compassionate, free from (the notion of) "I" and "my", even-minded in pain and pleasure, forgiving; and (12.13)

The yogi who is ever content, who has subdued the mind, whose resolve is firm, whose mind and intellect are engaged in dwelling upon Me; such a devotee is dear to Me. (12.14)

These are all great virtues and the vivek we see, are perhaps more understood in following the Dharma, then what I have come across off religions foreign to us.

Arjun having understood the Gita declared now my Moha is gone and I will do as you ask.

Visvamitra sought the help of Lord Ram to destroy the Raksasa.

Knowledge alone does not solve every thing, especially if it is one sided.




But let us find out whether the hatred problem has ever been solved by any other method but by the gain of knowledge?

Problem of hate will never go in this dualistic world.

There were knowledgeable people on both sides in the Kuru Pandav war, from Krisna and Youdhister to Bhismapita Drona yet the war was inevitable.

Would Hitler have listen to reason?



Anyone who sees any difference in Brahman is predicated to have great fall. So, where are the differences?

The very fact you talk about the differences, or else who is predicted for the fall, why the statement at all?

Jai Shree Krishna

atanu
23 February 2007, 01:01 AM
Pranam Atanu ji

Precisely if it is my act how is it some how some one else’s responsibility? The judge passes a sentence based on laws. And what a judge this one is, he is so merciful that he is only providing what one is desiring. So if we desire lawlessness he gives an opportunity in the jungle where there are no laws.
-----


Namaskar Ganesh Prasad Ji,

Exactly. The acts are mine. So, I should suffer. Alternately, the responsiblity of a calm consciousness is also mine.
But I had left out another reference, which I bring in now.

Lord Krishna says: Lord has tied Jivas on an automaton and left them to rotate (not exact translation of course). How this goes with the verse that Lord is not responsible for mistakes etc.? Are we dealing with two Lords?


I have not yet studied the rest of your post. I will do it at leisure and put more queries.

Om Namah Shivayya

atanu
23 February 2007, 01:11 AM
Pranam Atanu ji

---------
Anyone who sees any difference in Brahman is predicated to have great fall. So, where are the differences?

The very fact you talk about the differences, or else who is predicted for the fall, why the statement at all?

Jai Shree Krishna


So, we have a contradiction here? One has to see the difference less Brahman -- so one has to be another?

How can another see difference less Brahman?
How can one know/see advaita atma by being a second to it?


Om Namah Shivayya

atanu
23 February 2007, 01:26 AM
Pranam Atanu ji
-----
From relative to absolute these are both applicable.

------

-----

One who does not hate any creature, who is friendly and compassionate, free from (the notion of) "I" and "my", even-minded in pain and pleasure, forgiving; and (12.13)

-----

Knowledge alone does not solve every thing, especially if it is one sided.

---


Pranam,

When I said knowledge I of course meant meditative knowledge incuding renunciation of ego. Even from 12.13 (above), it is clear that the wise are the ones who have given up/lost the notion of 'I and Mine'. So, when we stick to an individual I, can we ever be close to wisdom?


And when one has clearly seen that the I is Lord Himself (and that the ego has no capacity to feel and say I), then who is against whom? What is mine and what is them? Repeat: To one who has given up the notion of I, what is mine and what is His?


Regards

Om Namah Shivayya

atanu
23 February 2007, 01:31 AM
Pranam Atanu ji

----------

The very fact you talk about the differences, or else who is predicted for the fall, why the statement at all?

Jai Shree Krishna


Isn't the notion of I as a discrete individual, separate from Brahman, the fall?

Let us see whether contradictions can be resolved by words or not?


Om Namah Shivayya

sm78
23 February 2007, 03:20 AM
There is no hate, as there is no other.

ZN

While this may be true to the one who has realized thus, I have to say it is absolutely impractical and futile as a dogma.

Better is to try not to have hate and stand firm for the right. When one fights for the right and just, it cannot be hate as it is dharma.

sm78
23 February 2007, 03:30 AM
If I love peace and harmony (Shivam) then by default I hate violence and discord.

You have hit the hammer right on the nail GP.

Znanna
23 February 2007, 04:38 AM
While this may be true to the one who has realized thus, I have to say it is absolutely impractical and futile as a dogma.

Better is to try not to have hate and stand firm for the right. When one fights for the right and just, it cannot be hate as it is dharma.


Namaste,

It seems to me that fighting itself is impractical as dogma, as it implies one is fighting *against* something which is "other", thus is intrinsically dualistic.

"I'm other you" = "I love you" in old Scots Gaelic


ZN

Ganeshprasad
23 February 2007, 10:43 AM
Pranam Atanu ji



Exactly. The acts are mine. So, I should suffer. Alternately, the responsiblity of a calm consciousness is also mine.
But I had left out another reference, which I bring in now.

Lord Krishna says: Lord has tied Jivas on an automaton and left them to rotate (not exact translation of course). How this goes with the verse that Lord is not responsible for mistakes etc.? Are we dealing with two Lords?


Certainly not, and there can be no contradictions in what Krishna says, the fault is ours in understanding, we are all guilty of putting on certain color glass and view from that perspective.


A jihadi armed with the knowledge (misguided) that janat awaits me if I kill a kafir and a kaffir if he thinks there is no other (fear not love all) gets killed. This to me is a cope out, not wanting to deal with a situation.

Coming back to query of lord’s responsibility and verse you mention,

isvarah sarva-bhutanam
hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati
bhramayan sarva-bhutani
yantrarudhani mayaya

The Lord abides in the heart of all beings, O Arjuna, causing all beings to act (or work out their Karma) by His power of Maya as if they are (puppets of Karma) mounted on a machine. (18.61)

This seems as if we have no choice or responsibility for our action but if you read previous two verses then you might understand what is meant ( yantrarudhani mayaya) this automation is our previous desires and karma, since he is the witness as the supersoul we get what we deserve, and is carried by the material body which is created in the material energy under the direction of the Supersoul.


If due to ego you think: I shall not fight; this resolve of yours is vain. Your own nature will compel you (to fight). (18.59)
What you do not wish to do out of delusion; you shall do even that against your will, bound by your own nature-born Karma, O Arjuna. (18.60)

Jai Shree Krishna

Ganeshprasad
23 February 2007, 11:12 AM
Namaskar


So, we have a contradiction here? One has to see the difference less Brahman -- so one has to be another?

How can another see difference less Brahman?
How can one know/see advaita atma by being a second to it?

Concepts, the apparent contradictions, these are well beyond me, until I am realized it will remain So.If I am Brahman or parts and verities within, which is a great mystery, all this has no value, if our endeavor to follow Dharma, to unravel that mystery, is constantly disturbed and challenged.

This is what Krishna says about differences.

na tv evaham jatu nasam
na tvam neme janadhipah
na caiva na bhavisyamah
sarve vayam atah param



There was never a time when I, you, or these kings did not exist; nor shall we ever cease to exist in the future. (2.12)



mattah parataram nanyat
kincid asti dhananjaya
mayi sarvam idam protam
sutre mani-gana iva

O conqueror of wealth [Arjuna], there is no Truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread. (7.07)

maya tatam idam sarvam
jagad avyakta-murtina
mat-sthani sarva-bhutani
na caham tesv avasthitah

By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them. (9.04)

na ca mat-sthani bhutani
pasya me yogam aisvaram
bhuta-bhrn na ca bhuta-stho
mamatma bhuta-bhavanah

And yet beings, in reality, do not remain in Me. Look at the power of My divine mystery. Though the sustainer and creator of all beings, I do not remain in them. (9.05)



yathakasa-sthito nityam
vayuh sarvatra-go mahan
tatha sarvani bhutani
mat-sthanity upadharaya

As the mighty wind, blowing everywhere, always rests in ethereal space, know that in the same manner all beings rest in Me.(9.06)

mamaivamso jiva-loke
jiva-bhutah sanatanah
manah-sasthanindriyani
prakrti-sthani karsati

Atma in the body is My eternal indivisible fragment indeed. Atma gets bound (or attached, and is called Jeevaatma) due to superimposition or association with the six sensory faculties, including the mind, of perception. (15.07)


Jai Shree Krishna

Ganeshprasad
23 February 2007, 11:14 AM
Pranam



When I said knowledge I of course meant meditative knowledge incuding renunciation of ego. Even from 12.13 (above), it is clear that the wise are the ones who have given up/lost the notion of 'I and Mine'. So, when we stick to an individual I, can we ever be close to wisdom?


And when one has clearly seen that the I is Lord Himself (and that the ego has no capacity to feel and say I), then who is against whom? What is mine and what is them? Repeat: To one who has given up the notion of I, what is mine and what is His?


Knowledge is a great asset but the realization of it, is a far cry.
If you have given up the notion of I then I guess there is nothing further to say.

I also pointed out such virtues are great within equals and of the same school, harmony and peace is maintained

Arjun had the same dilemma, he saw fit to withdraw in to the jungle and become a mendicant, overcome by grief, he also questioned if knowledge was so great why push him in to ghastly action?

Arjuna said: If You consider that transcendental knowledge is better than work then why do You want me to engage in this horrible war, O Krishna? (3.01)


Here is what the lord says

na karmanam anarambhan
naiskarmyam puruso 'snute
na ca sannyasanad eva
siddhim samadhigacchati

na hi kascit ksanam api
jatu tisthaty akarma-krt
karyate hy avasah karma
sarvah prakrti-jair gunaih

One does not attain freedom from the bondage of Karma by merely abstaining from work. No one attains perfection by merely giving up work. (3.04)

Because no one can remain actionless even for a moment. Everyone is driven to action, helplessly indeed, by the Gunas of nature. (3.05)

Jai Shree Krishna

Ganeshprasad
23 February 2007, 11:26 AM
Pranam Atanu ji



Isn't the notion of I as a discrete individual, separate from Brahman, the fall?

Let us see whether contradictions can be resolved by words or not?

The fall indeed is a great mystery, the sat chit and anand quality, how it gets deluded, is a bigger mystery, if you can, please let me know.

Words do not resolve contradiction there is always a scope for misunderstandings, action and realization does so uthistha and do your duty that is the message from Gita.

Jai Shree Krishna

Ganeshprasad
23 February 2007, 12:19 PM
Pranam SM


Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad
If I love peace and harmony (Shivam) then by default I hate violence and discord.

You have hit the hammer right on the nail GP.


I am glad you think so, it seems some of our friends here are in denial and want to reconcile all the differences in adwitam, meanwhile those who don’t care or respect our Dharma have a field day.

This is precisely how Mohammed gajvi (spelling), who came as an enemy and who was forgiven few times, had an opportunity to come back and the rest is history

Jai Shree Krishna

Znanna
23 February 2007, 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad
If I love peace and harmony (Shivam) then by default I hate violence and discord.

Um, I know no polite way to say this, but this is so divisive that it reminds me of debates I've had with fundamentalist Christians who say sin isn't sin if it's justified.

YMMV



ZN

Ganeshprasad
24 February 2007, 10:08 AM
Pranam


[/size]

Um, I know no polite way to say this, but this is so divisive that it reminds me of debates I've had with fundamentalist Christians who say sin isn't sin if it's justified.





ZN


Well it is so easy to make statements without giving any reason.

Unlike your Christians fundamentalist, I have not denied anything, not even your notion on love so why the implication?


In the context of my statement as a whole how do you justify your stance and I quote again





Love never dies.

I like to accept the notion that I love everyone, everything; there is no difference.

There is no hate, as there is no other.



My answer
Granted love is the highest expression, one can see that manifest in mother’s unconditional love for her children also, and yet resentment also sprouts as one notice the naughty one get the rewards.

Until the final goal is realized, such notion that there is no hate is futile in this dualistic world.
If I love peace and harmony (Shivam) then by default I hate violence and discord.
In the context of the discussion, the violence, the deceit against Dharma, I may learn to forgive the perpetrator, but I can not be indifferent to acts of violence and deceit.





If the statement "sin isn’t if it’s justified" not acceptable to you, then why violence and discord, (which directly contradicts peace and harmony) be acceptable.


Why this thread in the first place, did you expect any reaction?




YMMV

What is this?


Jai Shree Krishna

atanu
24 February 2007, 10:17 AM
If I love peace and harmony (Shivam) then by default I hate violence and discord.

You have hit the hammer right on the nail GP.


Namaskar Ganesh Prasad Ji and Namaskar SM,

Right on the nail?

Loving God means there is nothing else to hate as God is ALL. So, there is some confusion as to which is nail and which is hammer.


Om Namah Shivayya

atanu
24 February 2007, 10:28 AM
Namaskar
------
mamaivamso jiva-loke
jiva-bhutah sanatanah
manah-sasthanindriyani
prakrti-sthani karsati

Atma in the body is My eternal indivisible fragment indeed. Atma gets bound (or attached, and is called Jeevaatma) due to superimposition or association with the six sensory faculties, including the mind, of perception. (15.07)

Jai Shree Krishna


Namaskar Ganesh Prasad Ji,

Whose translation is this? Can you show Atma in the above verse? Atma is achedyo (Atma is uncuttable). God himself is not devoid of Atma and that Atma is Atma everywhere.

Avibhaktam cha bhooteshu vibhaktamiva cha sthitam;
Bhootabhartru cha tajjneyam grasishnu prabhavishnu cha.
13. 17. And undivided, yet He exists as if divided in beings; He is to be known as the supporter of beings; He devours and He generates also.

Jyotishaamapi tajjyotistamasah paramuchyate;
Jnaanam jneyam jnaanagamyam hridi sarvasya vishthitam.
3. 18. That, the Light of all lights, is beyond darkness; it is said to be knowledge, the Knowable and the goal of knowledge, seated in the hearts of all.

13.23 Upadrashtaanumantaa cha bhartaa bhoktaa maheshwarah;
Paramaatmeti chaapyukto dehe’smin purushah parah.
13. 23. The Supreme Soul in this body is also called the spectator, the permitter, the supporter, the enjoyer, the great Lord and the Supreme Self.


Also

13.29 Samam pashyan hi sarvatra samavasthitameeshwaram;
Na hinastyaatmanaa’tmaanam tato yaati paraam gatim.
13. 29. Because he who sees the same Lord dwelling equally everywhere does not destroy the Self by the self, he goes to the highest goal.


That indivisible light which appears divided is seated in the heart of everyone (consciousness). It is the knowledge as well as the object of knowledge. It is Param Atma, Param Purusha, Mahesvara. It has to be known. It is the highest goal.


Many verses have been cited by you to show eternal divisibilty. But each one of them has a counter. For example, consider the verse 13.17 cited above, which says that Paramatma is seated in the heart and appears to be divided although it is ever indivisible. The division is apparent. The apparent boundary itself is consciousness and not something other than consciousness(remember Pragnya Brahman?).

Then consider the verse where Shri Krishna says: Yogi sees Me in every being and Every being in me. This does not leave any scope for anything that is not Him. And so, if you love Him, you cannot hate anything.





Quote:
So, we have a contradiction here? One has to see the difference less Brahman -- so one has to be another?

How can another see difference less Brahman?
How can one know/see advaita atma by being a second to it?
Concepts, the apparent contradictions, these are well beyond me, until I am realized it will remain So.If I am Brahman or parts and verities within, which is a great mystery, all this has no value, if our endeavor to follow Dharma, to unravel that mystery, is constantly disturbed and challenged.




The point is that Brahma Jigyasa is Auspicious. At the risk of repeatation, I will ask you another question. Mandukya Upanishad says --- Turiya is Advaita Atma and that the Turiya has to be known. This is very similar to Gita instruction as below:

13.13 Jneyam yattat pravakshyaami yajjnaatwaa’mritamashnute;
Anaadimatparam brahma na sattannaasaduchyate.

13. 13. I will declare that which has to be known, knowing which one attains to immortality, the beginningless supreme Brahman, called neither being nor non-being.

and

Avibhaktam cha bhooteshu vibhaktamiva cha sthitam;
Bhootabhartru cha tajjneyam grasishnu prabhavishnu cha.

13. 17. And undivided, yet He exists as if divided in beings; He is to be known as the supporter of beings; He devours and He generates also.


So, I ask you (as I have asked many others), whether it is possible to know Advaita, by remaining a second to it?

Brahma Jigyasa is Auspicious and not dogma as someone else wrote. The understanding that all that I see, whether pleasant or unbearable, is modification of ONE consciousness alone is the correct beginning towards samadrishti, without which feet of Lord will be eternally distant, and never in one's own heart.




Om Namah Shivayya

Znanna
24 February 2007, 12:40 PM
Namaste!

I posted this thread as to note the insidiousness of the cancer of the so-called Christianity as expressed in evangelism. I call it so-called Christianity, because those preaching "church planting" innately are contrary to the notion of "ONE AND THE SAME". We are ALREADY brothers and sisters - the idea that these evangelists have that somehow *they* are creating spirituality, well, I find it very perverse if not downright antithetical.

When I said:


Um, I know no polite way to say this, but this is so divisive that it reminds me of debates I've had with fundamentalist Christians who say sin isn't sin if it's justified.

I was referring to GP's comments of:



Granted love is the highest expression, one can see that manifest in mother’s unconditional love for her children also, and yet resentment also sprouts as one notice the naughty one get the rewards.

Until the final goal is realized, such notion that there is no hate is futile in this dualistic world.
If I love peace and harmony (Shivam) then by default I hate violence and discord.
In the context of the discussion, the violence, the deceit against Dharma, I may learn to forgive the perpetrator, but I can not be indifferent to acts of violence and deceit.

This reminds me a favorite saying of many "Christians" with whom I also converse. They like to quote from the Bible about trading the cloak for the sword, and how this justifies killing, which isn't "murder" if it relates to the "enemy" (usually Muslims, in the context of those conversations).

My point is: THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US. WE ARE ALL BROTHERS AND SISTERS. WE ARE ALL ONE.

Would you not love yourself, rather than severing a limb because it offends?


Love never dies.

I like to accept the notion that I love everyone, everything; there is no difference.

There is no hate, as there is no other.

Does this make more sense now?


GP:

If the statement "sin isn’t if it’s justified" not acceptable to you, then why violence and discord, (which directly contradicts peace and harmony) be acceptable.

"Peace and harmony" cannot exist without "violence and discord". Yet these are relativistic concepts and have nothing to do with Godz, which are beyond description or classification.


Your Mileage May Vary (depending on driving conditions)




Love,
ZN

Ganeshprasad
24 February 2007, 12:48 PM
Namaskar Ganesh Prasad Ji and Namaskar SM,

Right on the nail?

Loving God means there is nothing else to hate as God is ALL. So, there is some confusion as to which is nail and which is hammer.


Om Namah Shivayya



Pranam Atanu ji

I find this strange that you should find, my rejection of violence that is tangible, and protecting Dharma, as against love of god, where as my mere rejection of it you see fit to oppose. If you have conviction in what you write then you could afford me the same standard.

Where is the power of discrimination?

In order to love god, we have to give up our sense desires which deludes us, god is all but we still have to choose cause one leads us to mukti and the other binds us.

Even God discriminates.
yada yada hi dharmasya
glanir bhavati bharata
abhyutthanam adharmasya
tadatmanam srjamy aham

Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at that time I descend Myself. (4.7)

paritranaya sadhunam
vinasaya ca duskrtam
dharma-samsthapanarthaya
sambhavami yuge yuge

In order to deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I advent Myself millennium after millennium. (4.8)

samo 'ham sarva-bhutesu
na me dvesyo 'sti na priyah
ye bhajanti tu mam bhaktya
mayi te tesu capy aham

I am equal to all beings. There is no one hateful or dear to Me. But, those who worship Me with devotion, they are with Me and I am also with them. (9.29)



Are we capable of love, if at all, more then god?

I love my food am I capable of loving the by-product, even though in essence in final analysis it is the same molecules. I don’t think so.

There is no confusion in nail and hammer since it was just a metaphor


Jai Shree Krishna

Ganeshprasad
24 February 2007, 05:47 PM
Namaskar Atanu ji



Whose translation is this? Can you show Atma in the above verse? Atma is achedyo (Atma is uncuttable). God himself is not devoid of Atma and that Atma is Atma everywhere.

I accept the above translation is faulty, I many times use a source independent of any school to be impartial in my presentation, as I do not belong to any particular path. Translation below is more faithful to the original.

mama--My; eva--certainly; amsah--fragmental particles; jiva-loke--world of conditional life; jiva-bhutah--the conditioned living entity; sanatanah--eternal; manah--mind; sasthani--six; indriyani--senses; prakrti--material nature; sthani--situated; karsati--struggling hard.

The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal, fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind.


There are two important words here Jiva butah and sanatanah. The conscious being and eternal. Amsah is indicating as atma.

Krishna has already declared him self as paramatma no need if there were no other atma.

For example (and imho no example could fully satisfy the truth) the sun and its rays are same yet different so does the conscious being(atama) same and different from the super conscious pursotam (paramatma).

Yes atma is achedo, which is what Krishna, says in chapter two and I bring the verse again


na tv evaham jatu nasam
na tvam neme janadhipah
na caiva na bhavisyamah
sarve vayam atah param



There was never a time when I, you, or these kings did not exist; nor shall we ever cease to exist in the future. (2.12)

For me this is a most fundamental statement, this verities are easy for any one to see, to deny that would be most difficult for any one who is conscious, yet I do not doubt adwaita because in my tiny understanding there can be nothing that exist out side the realm of Brahman. Therefore when Krishna say this it makes perfect sense.

mattah parataram nanyat
kincid asti dhananjaya
mayi sarvam idam protam
sutre mani-gana iva

O conqueror of wealth [Arjuna], there is no Truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread. (7.07)

maya tatam idam sarvam
jagad avyakta-murtina
mat-sthani sarva-bhutani
na caham tesv avasthitah

By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them. (9.04)

na ca mat-sthani bhutani
pasya me yogam aisvaram
bhuta-bhrn na ca bhuta-stho
mamatma bhuta-bhavanah

And yet beings, in reality, do not remain in Me. Look at the power of My divine mystery. Though the sustainer and creator of all beings, I do not remain in them. (9.05)

yathakasa-sthito nityam
vayuh sarvatra-go mahan
tatha sarvani bhutani
mat-sthanity upadharaya

As the mighty wind, blowing everywhere, always rests in ethereal space, know that in the same manner all beings rest in Me.(9.06)

This is for me the adwaita I need to realize, from whom I apparently feel separate from. And yes you are right no one can remain second to know him because we are never out as confirmed by (9.06)



Avibhaktam cha bhooteshu vibhaktamiva cha sthitam;
Bhootabhartru cha tajjneyam grasishnu prabhavishnu cha.
13. 17. And undivided, yet He exists as if divided in beings; He is to be known as the supporter of beings; He devours and He generates also.

Jyotishaamapi tajjyotistamasah paramuchyate;
Jnaanam jneyam jnaanagamyam hridi sarvasya vishthitam.
3. 18. That, the Light of all lights, is beyond darkness; it is said to be knowledge, the Knowable and the goal of knowledge, seated in the hearts of all.

13.23 Upadrashtaanumantaa cha bhartaa bhoktaa maheshwarah;
Paramaatmeti chaapyukto dehe’smin purushah parah.
13. 23. The Supreme Soul in this body is also called the spectator, the permitter, the supporter, the enjoyer, the great Lord and the Supreme Self.

This is the description of the paramatma as can be clearly seen, you know,the Upanishad takes of two birds, one is enjoying and the other as witness.






13.29 Samam pashyan hi sarvatra samavasthitameeshwaram;
Na hinastyaatmanaa’tmaanam tato yaati paraam gatim.
13. 29. Because he who sees the same Lord dwelling equally everywhere does not destroy the Self by the self, he goes to the highest goal.

This again we have to recognize, that the lord resides in all living creature and therefore be very very careful not to hurt anyone (ahimsa) for the question of destroying the atma or parmatma does not arise.




That indivisible light which appears divided is seated in the heart of everyone (consciousness). It is the knowledge as well as the object of knowledge. It is Param Atma, Param Purusha, Mahesvara. It has to be known. It is the highest goal.
I agree.



Many verses have been cited by you to show eternal divisibilty. But each one of them has a counter.

Each one of the verses are transcendental, I do not see them as counter, I accept them as they are, if my understanding is faulty then it is my misfortune, so I pray for his grace.



For example, consider the verse 13.17 cited above, which says that Paramatma is seated in the heart and appears to be divided although it is ever indivisible. The division is apparent. The apparent boundary itself is consciousness and not something other than consciousness(remember Pragnya Brahman?).

Yes that is his inconceivable potency.



Then consider the verse where Shri Krishna says: Yogi sees Me in every being and Every being in me. This does not leave any scope for anything that is not Him. And so, if you love Him, you cannot hate anything.

Yes it is well understood he is omnipresence but do we really perceive that? Love is not blind, if I am on the path of perfection and all the while I am not, do I not see the injustice, the violence, are you denying them?

Did Visvamitra a brahm rishi not seek the help of Lord Ram, did not Arjun having gain the knowledge and the Lord by his side fight for Adharma? What chance us mere mortal?






I will ask you another question. Mandukya Upanishad says --- Turiya is Advaita Atma and that the Turiya has to be known. This is very similar to Gita instruction as below:

13.13 Jneyam yattat pravakshyaami yajjnaatwaa’mritamashnute;
Anaadimatparam brahma na sattannaasaduchyate.

13. 13. I will declare that which has to be known, knowing which one attains to immortality, the beginningless supreme Brahman, called neither being nor non-being.

and

Avibhaktam cha bhooteshu vibhaktamiva cha sthitam;
Bhootabhartru cha tajjneyam grasishnu prabhavishnu cha.

13. 17. And undivided, yet He exists as if divided in beings; He is to be known as the supporter of beings; He devours and He generates also.


So, I ask you (as I have asked many others), whether it is possible to know Advaita, by remaining a second to it?


No because we are never outside, there is no second to it, or else he can not be omnipresence. We feel outside covered by maya or prakuti but as he say

As the mighty wind, blowing everywhere, always rests in ethereal space, know that in the same manner all beings rest in Me.(9.06)
Our search has to be within, he is antaryami.



Brahma Jigyasa is Auspicious and not dogma as someone else wrote. The understanding that all that I see, whether pleasant or unbearable, is modification of ONE consciousness alone is the correct beginning towards samadrishti, without which feet of Lord will be eternally distant, and never in one's own heart.

On the path of Jigyasa to follow Dharma is our paramount duty how would you do that if you do not know what adharma is? Why there is no need to discriminate if the lord himself does it?

Jai Shree Krishna

atanu
24 February 2007, 11:51 PM
Pranam Atanu ji

I find this strange that you should find, my rejection of violence that is tangible, ------


Namaskar,

Just the opposite, my dear friend.

When one has love of God, all is love since God is all and God is Love.

Remember our old conversations? God burns down kama but installs the essence in heart, which being heart of all, love is truly all.

The senses which have not known the divisions to be mere appearance and not modification of consciousness (Brahman), does not see that Anbe Sivam.

Isha Upanishad


6. He who perceives all beings in the Self alone, and the Self in all beings, does not entertain any hatred on account of that perception.
7. When a man realises that all beings are but the Self, what delusion is there, what grief, to that perceiver of oneness?
8. That (Self) is all-pervading, radiant, bodiless, soreless, without sinews, pure, untainted by sin, the all-seer, the lord of the mind, transcendent and self-existent. That (Self) did allot in proper order to the eternal Prajapatis known as samvalsara (year) their duties.

Regards,

Om Namah Shivayya

atanu
25 February 2007, 12:05 AM
Namaskar Atanu ji

-------
There was never a time when I, you, or these kings did not exist; nor shall we ever cease to exist in the future. (2.12)

For me this is a most fundamental statement, this verities are easy for any one to see, to deny that would be most difficult for any one who is conscious, yet I do not doubt adwaita because in my tiny understanding there can be nothing that exist out side the realm of Brahman. Therefore when Krishna say this it makes perfect sense.

------



Namaskar ganesh Prasad Ji,

It is for nothing that you have remained my favourite for many years now. I acknowledge your wisdom.

In this case, the I and you are eternal in waking state. But I and you are not there in Pragnya as well as in Turiya. Moreover, this I is not Hindu Ganesh Prasad. Who knows that Ganesh Prasad was a muslim in last incarnation and to appreciate the other point of view Lord gave you a Hindu incarnation now?


The Self is Turiya and Advaita. Scriptures say that the Turiya must be known. In Advaita there cannot be I and You, else Advaita is broken.

The question is what is one's vocation by varna? Same question will apply to everyone. The main task however is to know the Self, by whatever path God gives.


But Lord also says: Know that you are not the doer.


Om Namah Shivayya

atanu
25 February 2007, 12:18 AM
Namaskar Atanu ji

So, I ask you (as I have asked many others), whether it is possible to know Advaita, by remaining a second to it?

No because we are never outside, there is no second to it, or else he can not be omnipresence. We feel outside covered by maya or prakuti but as he say




Namaskar,

So, no one is outside it. The great fall is the notion of separateness.

My Guru has been often asked (especially by missionaries) "What about the ills of the World? How to rectify them?"

My Guru was of course very staunch. He replied "What about your ills? Have you rectified them?"

He teaches that the main task (and the only freedom) a jiva has is to know the Self. And till this happens, one is to remain following His dictates alone. Ganesh Prasad Ji, I try to follow this.

YMMV (a borrowed term, which I like). But finally the paths have to merge in that Advaita Self (i.e. if one wants to abide by the shruti that the Advaita Atma has to be known).

Regards

Om Namah Shivayya

atanu
26 February 2007, 05:47 AM
Gita


18.61. The Lord dwells in the hearts of all beings, O Arjuna, causing all beings, by His illusive power, to revolve as if mounted on a machine!

18.62. Fly unto Him for refuge with all thy being, O Arjuna! By His Grace thou shalt obtain supreme peace and the eternal abode.

18.63. Thus has wisdom more secret than secrecy itself been declared unto thee by Me; having reflected over it fully, then act thou as thou wishest.

18.64. Hear thou again My supreme word, most secret of all; because thou art dearly beloved of Me, I will tell thee what is good.

18.65. Fix thy mind on Me, be devoted to Me, sacrifice to Me, bow down to Me. Thou shalt come to Me truly do I promise unto thee, (for) thou art dear to Me.

18.66. Abandoning all dharma (duties), take refuge in Me alone; I will liberate thee from all sins; grieve not.

Om Namah Shivayya

sm78
26 February 2007, 07:04 AM
Ignore my ****

Ganeshprasad
26 February 2007, 07:31 AM
Pranam Znanna



I posted this thread as to note the insidiousness of the cancer of the so-called Christianity as expressed in evangelism. I call it so-called Christianity, because those preaching "church planting" innately are contrary to the notion of "ONE AND THE SAME". We are ALREADY brothers and sisters - the idea that these evangelists have that somehow *they* are creating spirituality, well, I find it very perverse if not downright antithetical.

So what is the difference when you use this words to register your distaste for evangelical Christians and apparently for their misguided spirituality and my hate for the violence that cause unbearable suffering to the families that are affected, their loved ones can not come back at least I can counter the deceit of the Christians.

Please note I have not advocated violence anywhere but i reserve the right to self-defense.






My point is: THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US. WE ARE ALL BROTHERS AND SISTERS. WE ARE ALL ONE.

Would you not love yourself, rather than severing a limb because it offends?


Even though I do not completely share the above sentiment but I do agree we are all children of one god, leaving that aside, would you not agree if the body was diseased you would do all you can to alleviate the suffering?






GP:

If the statement "sin isn’t if it’s justified" not acceptable to you, then why violence and discord, (which directly contradicts peace and harmony) be acceptable.


"Peace and harmony" cannot exist without "violence and discord". Yet these are relativistic concepts and have nothing to do with Godz, which are beyond description or classification.

Please be coherent instead of answering a simple enough question you make a statement, which make no sense to me.

How is peace and harmony existing in violence and discord?
Why do you think peace is invoked three times in Vedic mantras?


This mantra is specific for peace
Om dyauh shaantih Antariksham shaantih
Prithivee shaantih Aapah shaantih
Oshadhayah shaantih Vanaspatayah shaantih
Vishvedevaah shaantih Brahma shaantih
Sarvam shaantih Shaantireva shaantih
Saamaa shaantiredhih Om shaantih, shaantih, shaantih!

Meaning.By Swami Abhedananda, Ramakrishna Vedanta Math, India)

May peace radiate there in the whole sky as well as in the vast ethereal space everywhere. May peace reign all over this earth, in water and in all herbs, trees and creepers. May peace flow over the whole universe. May peace be in the Supreme Being Brahman. And may there always exist in all peace and peace alone.
Om peace, peace and peace to us and all beings!
===================================



Your Mileage May Vary (depending on driving conditions)

very nice thank you

But if I may add service the vehicle regularly and repair the roads or at least do not willfully damage, then the ride becomes smooth for all to enjoy.


Love,
Jai Shree Krishna

sm78
26 February 2007, 07:36 AM
Namaskar Ganesh Prasad Ji and Namaskar SM,

Right on the nail?

Loving God means there is nothing else to hate as God is ALL. So, there is some confusion as to which is nail and which is hammer.


Om Namah Shivayya

Confusion is I am not yet Shiva ... maybe/maynot be good to think I am Shiva, but certainly confusing to draw my course of action from my thought that I am Shiva.

atanu
26 February 2007, 10:48 AM
Confusion is I am not yet Shiva ... maybe/maynot be good to think I am Shiva, but certainly confusing to draw my course of action from my thought that I am Shiva.

Namaskar,

Thank You for a reply, my friend. Very well said and I agree fully that it is fatal to draw course of action from a mere thought that 'I am Shiva'.

But, I had written the following.



Loving God means there is nothing else to hate as God is ALL. So, there is some confusion as to which is nail and which is hammer.


Om Namah Shivayya


First, "I am Shiva" is not the premise here.

Second, the premise and my opinion is: If one loves Shiva, the word hate will not arise.

Raso vai Sah -- that is what God is.

I stand by what I said, but I am in agreement with your signature line. Do duty without passion. (Highest duty being meditation of Lord -- Yoga Vashista).

The world is full of irritants, no doubt. But all those irritants are based on the notion that "I am Atanu" or "I am Singhi". If you think that these notions are perfect then your point of view is OK. But the knowledge that the above notions are largely erroneous has arisen (I hope). And also, in all scriptures Lord teaches us to worship Him with a mind soaked full of samadrishti and equanimity.

Do we not feel irritated at a restrictive boss or a superior colleague? Irritations will come in through any route -- it need not be only a particular group. Irritations/Anger/Jealousy etc., are inherent functions of "I am this" thought.

And talking of dual world, I personally find christian evangelism more insidious, since their religious leaders are very often involved, armed with ill-earned money. This is my dualistic and personal view (which I know is faulty, since the One who has created the world can take care of His creation, without my ego intervention).

Saying all this, I would say that I understand that the adversary feelings are perfectly normal, under the given circumstances. And, ----- and, I do not know whether you will agree or not that we suffer some weaknesses due to exploitative use of caste system that are easy to exploit. Please take the point of view of those who convert also.

Regards,

Om Namah Shivayya

Ganeshprasad
26 February 2007, 10:57 AM
Pranam Atanu ji


Gita


18.61. The Lord dwells in the hearts of all beings, O Arjuna, causing all beings, by His illusive power, to revolve as if mounted on a machine!

18.62. Fly unto Him for refuge with all thy being, O Arjuna! By His Grace thou shalt obtain supreme peace and the eternal abode.

18.63. Thus has wisdom more secret than secrecy itself been declared unto thee by Me; having reflected over it fully, then act thou as thou wishest.

18.64. Hear thou again My supreme word, most secret of all; because thou art dearly beloved of Me, I will tell thee what is good.

18.65. Fix thy mind on Me, be devoted to Me, sacrifice to Me, bow down to Me. Thou shalt come to Me truly do I promise unto thee, (for) thou art dear to Me.

18.66. Abandoning all dharma (duties), take refuge in Me alone; I will liberate thee from all sins; grieve not.


Thank you for the verses, they are all very profound.

Usely 18.66 is quated to establishe the exclusive worship of Krish by many but I know your intent are different and I respect that, my own take on this verse is.

Arjun overcome by grief, his fear of sins of killing his guru and kin’s unsure of his Dharma thus asked

karpanya-dosopahata-svabhavah
prcchami tvam dharma-sammudha-cetah
yac chreyah syan niscitam bruhi tan me
sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam tvam prapannam


My heart is overcome by the weakness of pity, and my mind is confused about Dharma. I request You to tell me, decisively, what is better for me. I am Your disciple. Teach me who has taken refuge in You. (2.07)

Arjuns misconception on Dharma is what being addressed(18.66) why else he says,

tasmac chastram pramanam te
karyakarya-vyavasthitau
jnatva sastra-vidhanoktam
karma kartum iharhasi

Therefore, let the scripture be your authority in determining what should be done and what should not be done. You should perform your duty following the scriptural injunction. (16.24)

The verse prior to 18.61 are important if we are to understand our conduct and actions, we are bound by this prakriti and would be forced to act out our Karma. Therefore varna is also very important to understand,

Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness--these are the qualities by which the brahmanas work. (18.42)

Those having the qualities of heroism, vigor, firmness, dexterity, not fleeing from battle, charity, and Ishvar bhav(to exicute duty justly), are called Kshatriyas, the protectors. (18.43)

Those who are good in cultivation, cattle rearing, business, trade, and industry are known as Vaishyas. Those who do service and labor type work are classed as Shudras. (18.44)


As the kali has set in the standard has dropped in the vrnas, it is easy to see the last two dominates emphasis everywhere is on economic growth, and work like an ass metality, in the pursuit of material pleasure, no wonder the first two are scorned, as their own standard drops. In the name of equality the real goals are lost, the wealth accumulates and Dharma decays.

I do understand your higher ideals and admire you for it that goes without saying but I am also a realist and I admit my vision is also faulty but self- defense in upholding Dharma is no crime, that is my understanding. As I am powerless I shell strive for the followling.

18.65. Fix thy mind on Me, be devoted to Me, sacrifice to Me, bow down to Me. Thou shalt come to Me truly do I promise unto thee, (for) thou art dear to Me.

Bg 12
advesta sarva-bhutanam
maitrah karuna eva ca
nirmamo nirahankarah
sama-duhkha-sukhah ksami

santustah satatam yogi
yatatma drdha-niscayah
mayy arpita-mano-buddhir
yo mad-bhaktah sa me priyah

bg 15
nirmana-moha jita-sanga-dosa
adhyatma-nitya vinivrtta-kamah
dvandvair vimuktah sukha-duhkha-samjnair
gacchanty amudhah padam avyayam tat


Those who are free from pride and delusion, who have conquered the evil of attachment, who are constantly dwelling in the Supreme Self with all Kaama completely stilled, who are free from the dualities known as pleasure and pain; such undeluded persons reach the eternal goal. (15.05)

I shell end with,Bg.2.47, 3.19 and 4.17

karmany evadhikaras te
ma phalesu kadacana
ma karma-phala-hetur bhur
ma te sango 'stv akarmani

tasmad asaktah satatam
karyam karma samacara
asakto hy acaran karma
param apnoti purusah

karmano hy api boddhavyam
boddhavyam ca vikarmanah
akarmanas ca boddhavyam
gahana karmano gatih




Om Namah Shivayya
Jai Shree Krishna

atanu
26 February 2007, 11:29 AM
Pranam Atanu ji



Thank you for the verses, they are all very profound.

Usely 18.66 is quated to establishe the exclusive worship of Krish by many but I know your intent are different and I respect that, -----
------


Namaskar Ganesh Prasad Ji,

Thank you for refreshing me with Gita verses.

Mental blocks of preference for name and form is not a big problem for an Advaitin. One can assimilate different parts of scriptures, without getting bogged down by mind blocks created by one's own preferences of names and forms (which are of one Brahman). An advaitin will appreciate when Lord Krishna says: a) I am the Self Arjuna; b) One knows who knows me as unborn mahesvara; c) Indivisbile Paramatma appears as if divided in bodies; and the following:

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

(Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull; --------.”

YV iv. 4. 9.

(Thou art) Prajapati in mind, when come to the Soma; ----- Çipivista when put in place; ------Visnu when being taken down; -----Rudra when offered; -----.

And, exactly that is what I was aiming at. Irritants of the world appear insurmountable to some and such do not hesitate to murder. On the other hand, there are Yogis, for whom even poison becomes health drink.

We are in the middle and neither we can kill nor we can digest the poison. That is perhaps the greatest difficulty.

Regards,

Om

atanu
26 February 2007, 12:20 PM
Pranam Atanu ji

----
The verse prior to 18.61 are important if we are to understand our conduct and actions, we are bound by this prakriti and would be forced to act out our Karma. Therefore varna is also very important to understand,

------


I agree.

The verse 18.66 is a tall order, wherein the whole karma falls away. This situation is called renouncing all support. It is tough.

But there is a small hitch in that the feeling that the requirement of the verse 18.66 is a tall order itself is mental. Stronger the notion stronger the obstruction.

I will try through a story.

Guru Ramana was asked by a gentleman "How do we who are busy in the world follow your dictum of continous abidance in Lord/Heart/Self?" Ramana did not answer but in a few minutes a group of ladies came in and started singing "Hands draw milk and churn out butter while we drown in the love of Gopala".

Guru Ramana then asked the gentleman whether he had received the answer or not. He sometimes explained: when actually the Self gets everything done with its power, the thought 'I am doing this' is the chief ignorance and chief obstacle.

There is also a bengali song "You do everything, O Mother, I say I do it."

Regards,


Om Namah Shivayya

sm78
27 February 2007, 12:12 AM
If one loves Shiva, the word hate will not arise.

One should try to act as per what is most rational and most just given the situation without any hate in mind. Practically not always possible...but neither impossible.

Scenario:- In office a few of my collegues regularly mock at me because I am shy.

Action 1: Ignore and take all the insult.
Action 2: Protest and take corrective action.

Human mind when subjected to "I love all" thought automatically assumes Action 1 is better and higher.

One who actually dwells in the self will however act as per Action 2. For one who dwells in self there is no existence of hate, neither there is any insult...his action will just what is most natural and rational and beneficial. The guys who mock and rag a shy just for fun needs to be corrected from their asuric pastime.

For common man who has not inclination to know the self anyways "Action 2" is always natural and Ok.

It is true that one who loves Shiva will not have any hate, but one who dwells in Shiva "will also not act as if to show others that he doesn't have hate..."

atanu
27 February 2007, 12:41 AM
[/b]

One should try to act as per what is most rational and most just given the situation without any hate in mind. Practically not always possible...but neither impossible.

Scenario:- In office a few of my collegues regularly mock at me because I am shy.

Action 1: Ignore and take all the insult.
Action 2: Protest and take corrective action.

Human mind when subjected to "I love all" thought automatically assumes Action 1 is better and higher.

One who actually dwells in the self will however act as per Action 2. For one who dwells in self there is no existence of hate, neither there is any insult...his action will just what is most natural and rational and beneficial. The guys who mock and rag a shy just for fun needs to be corrected from their asuric pastime.

For common man who has not inclination to know the self anyways "Action 2" is always natural and Ok.

It is true that one who loves Shiva will not have any hate, but one who dwells in Shiva "will also not act as if to show others that he doesn't have hate..."


Well said. Most natural action is action devoid of ego.

Action 2 excecuted through a Self realised one and the action 2 executed by an egotist, however, will have different flavours.


The highlighted portion "will also not act as if to show others that he doesn't have hate..." is true -- 100%. Only Jnanis of Turiyatita level can pass this test. We may strive.

Om Namah Shivayya

sm78
27 February 2007, 12:49 AM
Well said. Most natural action is action devoid of ego.

Action 2 excecuted through a Self realised one and the action 2 executed by an egotist, however, will have different flavours.


The highlighted portion "will also not act as if to show others that he doesn't have hate..." is true -- 100%. Only Jnanis of Turiyatita level can pass this test. We may strive.

Om Namah Shivayya

Namaste Banerjee Moshai ... it is true only the puruhottama can act such.

However my principle is to keep the field of action, thought and emotions seperate.

In Action try to emulate the Purushottama, and keep rational and logic * as the only guide ~ automatically takes ego off the scene to a extent.

For mind, thought and emotion only Sadhana can heal the confusion.....reminds me that i am yet to take off in the true sense.

* Ganesha is the favoured Son of Shakti.

atanu
27 February 2007, 01:03 AM
Namaste Banerjee Moshai ... it is true only the puruhottama can act such.

However my principle is to keep the field of action, thought and emotions seperate.

In Action try to emulate the Purushottama, and keep rational and logic * as the only guide ~ automatically takes ego off the scene to a extent.

For mind, thought and emotion only Sadhana can heal the confusion.....reminds me that i am yet to take off in the true sense.

* Ganesha is the favoured Son of Shakti.

Namaskar Singhi Moshai,

Ganesha is content with His parents. Yes Ganesha is the favoured one that (I think) causes some hurt to Skanda?
Emulating Purushottama is fine:

YV: i. 7. 5.

------ Headed by Visnu the gods won these worlds by the metres so as to be irrecoverable; in that he takes the steps of Visnu the sacrificer becoming like Visnu wins these worlds by the metres so as to be irrecoverable.

YV ii. 1. 3.

The gods and the Asuras strove for these worlds; Visnu saw this dwarf, he offered it to its own deity; then he conquered these worlds. One who is engaged in a struggle should offer the dwarf (beast) to Visnu; then he becomes like Visnu and conquers these worlds.


Taking the steps, as explained in Mandukya and offereing the dwarf to Vishnu and Pashupati are the Vedic instructions. Offering the beast to Him, is giving the reins of your rational mind to Him.


Best Wishes.


Om Namah Shivayya

Znanna
28 February 2007, 05:17 PM
Namaste,

It's curious to me that "Evanjihadism in Asia" became a thread debating the nuances of duality :P

Let me interject some politics (not that I'm a political person, I'm WAY too not politically correct to comment on politics as a habit) into this discussion, as I think that in the "real world" this essentially becomes a political issue as orthodox religion and politics share the love of bureaucracy and self-propagation as virus systems, no insult intended. (Note I said *orthodox religion* by which I mean the trappings rather than the spirituality which is beyond definition.)

Anyway, for what it's worth (FWIW), I have a radical idea for India. Wouldn't it be interesting to say, hey, Israel is a "Jewish State" so y'all (India) are a "Hindu State"? I think that would have many cool repercussions.

Did y'all know that US investment banks and fund companies have a strategy that they call BRIC? That stands for Brazil, Russia, India and China. Y'all are considered (and rightfully so) one of the primary "emerging markets" in the world.

In my opinion (IMO), creating the mirror of the theocratic state of Israel in a political sense, could not only balance the duality of the conflicts perpetuated by the Abrahamic religions but also could implicitly create, effortlessly, political ballast which could be used to harmonize Indian society.


Love,
ZN
/not PC



----- Original Message -----
From: Dev Maharaj
Subject: [MatruSena]

Re: [hc] Hindus Must Confront Reality and Act


Namaskaar
Please read and forward to all Hindus

EagleSM23 <eaglesm23@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hindus Must Confront Reality and Act
http://indowave.tripod.com/suseelan-2.html
-- by Dr. Babu Suseelan

Hindus never lack any noble, idealistic, abstract
theroies, functional concepts, propositions or models.
Hinduism extols all noble, spiritual and positive
virtues. Yet, we were attacked, invaded, our country
was plundered, wealth looted, temples destroyed and
our cultural institutions annihilated. More than 100
million Hindus were murdered by Islamic brutes. Our
country was divided, and we are still colonized by
bogus secularists, phony politicians and corrupt
bureaucrats. Hindu wealth is still looted and spend
for nefarious purposes. we are constantly under attack
like slaves in our own country. We are under siege.
Our children are indoctrinated with anti Hindu values.
Our profoundly religious, intellectually exciting and
spiritually enriching Dharma that guided generations
is presented by our media and pseudo secular
politicians as disturbing. why is that our eternal
Dharma seem to have little meaning to our politicians
and westernized media? is it because Hindus have no
power?

What went wrong? Where is the problem? What is the
solution? Hindus of today are more anxiously concerned
with saving our fictitious, so called illusion of
peace, meaningless communal harmony and bizarre
quackery of "all religions are the same". Our
generation is literally obsessed with the illusion of
peace with the dangerous dogmas of Islam,
Christianity, Communism and phony secularism. We are
in deep denial and suffer from a virulent form of
cognitive disorder, unable to see the deadly forces,
unable to get of the denial hole. Decades of Muslim
oppression,Christian colonialism and secularism have
left their dangerous mark on Hindus. They have blinded
our spiritual sensitivity and obscured our vision of
the basic facts of Hindu life.

We have to move to a strong position where we have to
begin painfully to regain the capacity to see things
as they really are. This is not easy, for the things
we are bound to see once we open our eyes are not
things we want to see. They are not things calculated
to grant us peace of mind on easy terms. Yet there is
no other way. No short cut will do. We, Hindus must
try to get to the bottom of the preset situation where
Hindus are marginalized, temple wealth is looted, our
life is threatened. Hindus must find a way out of the
maze of confusion, frustration, illusion and
passivism.

What shall Hindus do to escape from the present
malice, existing predicament and maze of problems
created by the nexus of Christians,Muslims,
Communists, corrupt politicians, phony intellectuals
and the mindless media? What is it that we want to be
saved from? The freedom we crave from is freedom from
oppression, naked discrimination, wanton aggression,
open destruction of our temples, values and sacred
traditions. The salvation we crave is a security able
to withstand political oppression of Hindus,
mistreatment of the media, destruction of our temples,
coercive religious conversion and Islamic terrorism.
The comfortable illusions of tolerance, passivism,
denial and false hope will not save us. We can no
longer pretend that mere abstract Vedic concepts,
chanting of Mantras and having festivals is going to
solve all our problems. Islamic evil, deceptive
Christian conversion techniques, Marxist violence,
secular propaganda and media misdirection are not
going to yield to our noble preaching. Hindus cannot
live any longer on restless frustration, painful
oppression, forever trembling at the brink of chaos
and aggression.

To survive and regain our status, Hindus need to
develop action strategies from our sacred abstract and
functional concepts. Hindus need to understand that
abstract concepts alone are bound to prove futile.
Sooner or later, somehow, at some point, we should
free ourselves from the dreadful frustration of
isolated, passive existence and use positive violence
and massive show of strength to over throw the evil
oppressors. Until we are ready to abandon all our
evasions and denial and confront our enemies with
strength, there is no salvation for us. The new strong
Hindutva will emerge once we abandon our illusion and
self-enclosed egocentricity. It will brings a new
power for life and a new Hindu society.

--Dr. Babu Suseelan

Ganeshprasad
02 March 2007, 10:49 AM
Pranam Atanu ji

Om saha naavavatu sahanau bhunaktu
Saha veeryam karavaavahai
Tejasvi naavadheetamastu maa vidvishaavahai
Om shantih shantih shantih

May He protect us both May He cause us both to enjoy the bliss of Mukti (liberation)! May we both exert to discover the true meaning of the sacred scriptures! May our studies be fruitful! May we never quarrel with each other! Let there be threefold peace

Time to give this thread back, as Znanna observed, but then our way of life is never separate from Dharma so I guess it is impossible to avoid the discussion without the Dharma reference.
Adawita or Bhakti sets a tone for final emancipation of the soul, however it is not devoid of learning process, just as in trying to solve a mathematical problem there is only one correct answer and one may approach that from different angle and in the process if there are mental blocks these are problem one has to surmount.


Your example of gopi bhava, such expression of love even Udahv was astounded can not be imitated but you are right we have to strive towards this perfection, how can I not accept it since one of my favorite gujrati bhajan point to the same direction you are expounding, it goes some thing like this,He Maa, should I become a victim of someone’s arrow let my heart be pierced, give me the strength to tolerate but let me not retaliate Hey Jagajanani hey jagdambe maa to Bhavani saranmaa layge (give me your shelter, maa).

The other morning I listen to pravachan on sanskar TV and I will try do justice as best as I could from my memory.
Mata arundhati one morning felt full of joy ready to explode in singing and dancing inquired of her swami what could be the reason. Sage Vashistha explained, it was all due to Vishvamitras presence and great Tapa, he explained how great he was, Vishwamitra, hiding behind a bush ready to behead, who had already killed 100 sons of Vashistha, dropped the sword.

Until such realization dawns on us our refuge is in shastra in regards to our duty,

Latter-day Viswamitra sought help of Lord Ram the student of Vashitha to protect His yagya.

Yato Dhrmah Tato Jayah" - Where Dharma exists victory is guaranteed.

Jai Shree Krishna

atanu
03 March 2007, 08:03 PM
Pranam Atanu ji

Om saha naavavatu sahanau bhunaktu
Saha veeryam karavaavahai
Tejasvi naavadheetamastu maa vidvishaavahai
Om shantih shantih shantih

May He protect us both May He cause us both to enjoy the bliss of Mukti (liberation)! May we both exert to discover the true meaning of the sacred scriptures! May our studies be fruitful! May we never quarrel with each other! Let there be threefold peace

Time to give this thread back, as Znanna observed, but then our way of life is never separate from Dharma so I guess it is impossible to avoid the discussion without the Dharma reference.
Adawita or Bhakti sets a tone for final emancipation of the soul, however it is not devoid of learning process, just as in trying to solve a mathematical problem there is only one correct answer and one may approach that from different angle and in the process if there are mental blocks these are problem one has to surmount.


Your example of gopi bhava, such expression of love even Udahv was astounded can not be imitated but you are right we have to strive towards this perfection, how can I not accept it since one of my favorite gujrati bhajan point to the same direction you are expounding, it goes some thing like this,He Maa, should I become a victim of someone’s arrow let my heart be pierced, give me the strength to tolerate but let me not retaliate Hey Jagajanani hey jagdambe maa to Bhavani saranmaa layge (give me your shelter, maa).

The other morning I listen to pravachan on sanskar TV and I will try do justice as best as I could from my memory.
Mata arundhati one morning felt full of joy ready to explode in singing and dancing inquired of her swami what could be the reason. Sage Vashistha explained, it was all due to Vishvamitras presence and great Tapa, he explained how great he was, Vishwamitra, hiding behind a bush ready to behead, who had already killed 100 sons of Vashistha, dropped the sword.

Until such realization dawns on us our refuge is in shastra in regards to our duty,

Latter-day Viswamitra sought help of Lord Ram the student of Vashitha to protect His yagya.

Yato Dhrmah Tato Jayah" - Where Dharma exists victory is guaranteed.

Jai Shree Krishna


Namaste to all and especially to Ganesh Prasad Ji,

Happy Holi to all.

A very inspired writing, Ganesh Ji. Waking life has its dillemmas. The truth is that the world that one gets is one's karma.

Even while hating all kinds of violence and hatred I would say that the faith needs protection. Visvamitra demanded 100 cows (definitely not physical cows) from Vashista who refused to part with the cows and in the ensuing battle Vasista vanquished Visvamitra's army with darbha grass. All the while Vashista called Visvamitra a brahmarishi.

That was and is still is a hallowed world.

In this world, I now have started understanding the mind and the pain of people like Dara Singh who killed Staines. Though it may be shocking for most people that some one may empathise with a murderer, but the haughty contempt for our scripture, our gurus, our way of worship that these christian missionaries exhibit can invoke reaction easily.


They use all kinds of enticement to lure the poor, to spread hatred and inequality. There is very little spirituality in those missionary activities. Like Muslims invaded for lucre. Christians came in as pirates. Instict is always justified using rationality. Dharma has followed pirates and not the other way around.

But since it is easy for a rogue outsider to lure away an illtreated wife, the internal inconsistencies must be lovingly treated with good medicine.

Rogue outsiders, I suppose, will never go away. But I feel that we must pay heed when our scripture and our faith and our revered dieties are undermined (by so-called aliens and by Hindus as well). I can show you several instances in vague puranas where the Lord is killed off by others -- by Devi, by Vishnu, and even by unknown dieties. Why will Lord be loving to us? (I have not found the incidence of humbling of Indra by Krishna in Vedas (may be I am not equipped to find the verse?). On the other hand, I have read the reverse. Division in the mind of a nation is easily exploitable.)

Where Dharma exists victory is guaranteed. This must be the ultimate. That is what I believe strongly, since Arjuna chose Lord wheras Duryodhana chose the army.

Only a naked fakir, Gandhiji, equipped solely with bare non-tangible Atma Shakti was able to throw away the invaders.



Om Namah Shivayya

Ganeshprasad
04 March 2007, 05:30 AM
Pranam Atanu ji

Happy Holi to all.

on this day it is important to remember as well as enjoy the colourful event, the wonderful character and faith of Prhlad maharaj.

Jai Shree Krishna