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yajvan
17 February 2007, 04:28 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~
Namaste Unmesaki ( one who has the eyes opened a.k.a open to the truth)

I thought this post may be of use to those mumukshi ( those desiring moksha) to discuss the notion of higher states of consciousness. This goes in this folder under yoga, as union with the Divine will be discussed.

For those that have just started the unfoldment of theses concepts and practices, a few of the notions may seem a bit 'esoteric'. Yet, one needs to get a vision of the goal if one wishes to reach a destination.

It is important to note that these states of consciousness are available to all who seek them. Our efforts towards them is only needed to start the process… and Sri Krsna also suggests, no effort is ever lost. To me, this clearly points to the notion that if we do not achieve this Bhuma in this life, the effort expended rolls over to the next life. This is pointed out in the Bhagavad Gita (Chapt 6.37 to 6.44)

This post builds off the knowledge presented in these previous posts and may be good to consider as a whole with this New post , 7 States of Consciousness - saptamtha chetana.
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=10586&postcount=1 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=10586&postcount=1) This number 7 (sapta)
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=8816&postcount=1 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=8816&postcount=1)Bhagavat Chetana
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=9920&postcount=1 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=9920&postcount=1) God Inviting

7 States of Consciousness - [as I have been taught] are the following:
Waking or jagrat chetana
Dreaming or swapn chetana
Dreamless Sleep or sushupti chetana
Transcendental Consciousness - turiya chetana
Cosmic Consciousness turiyatit chetana (sustained turiya consciousness)
God consciousness or bhagavat chetana
Brahman Consciousness or brahmi chetana
Each state of consciousness has a corresponding mind-body experience, and a world-surroundings experience ( perception). Lets start here:

Waking or jagrat chetana
All of us should be in waking state now - Yes? As we read this, the mind is active, the body is also active. We are aware of our surroundings. If a noise is heard our attention goes there. If we smell something the senses are active, e.g. from the kitchen cookies are being baked, we smell them and our attention goes there. Our senses are engaged with the environment. The mind goes to other places as the senses may direct it. If this post becomes boring, ones attention is then directed to another place that may give it more. ( This 'more' experience is wired in our circuitry, the village of the senses).
Duality exists - that is, there is me, and then the objects I perceive - cars, people, family, job, actions, all are outside of me.

Dreaming or swapn chetana
Dreaming , we have the mind active and the body resting. Some say they do not dream, this can be left for another time. In dream the mind can experience flying, smelling, taste, and a whole range of experiences, yet the body does not. It is thought that this activity is part of The stress release process for the individual. The surroundings in this state of consciousness is of the minds choice. Some in color, some black&white surroundings. This dream state is a bit less restrictive then waking.
Duality exists- I am active in mind, and other 'things' and experiences are in motion, distinct from me.

Dreamless Sleep or sushupti chetana
Many call this deep sleep. The mind is withdrawn, the body inactive, the senses are inactive, to feed the mind, so mind is not present.
No Duality - There is no experience, no Duality - which is a definition of enlightenment, yet one is not aware of this, so the condition of enlightenment as a possible state is disqualified.

Transcendental Consciousness - turiya chetana
This state is the foundation for all other states of consciousness. It is pure consciousness. The 'raw materials' for being. For being what you say, Please finish the sentence. It is 'being' or existence. It is awareness itself. Aware of what ? just awareness. Think of it this way. You go To the movies and what all the action on the screen. The movie ends, they turn on the house lights, and you see the white screen on where the movie was being played. Like that , this turiya chetana, provides the canvas for all other levels of consciousness to take place. This screen is White, so all things can be reflected. White contains all colors of the spectrum, as turiya contains all possibilities.
The metaphor breaks down here. Unlike the movie screen, turiya chetana has no boundaries or edges like the screen. The rishi's say it is Unbounded. In this state of awareness, there is restfulness in the body and the mind is awake in itself. This has been called restful alertness.

The mind is still, but alert, the body is rested, balanced. This is unlike the other 3 states of waking dreaming and sleeping. This state of awareness/consciousness is experienced by transcending. Going to finer levels of Consciousness, until the activity of the mind is still, and pure consciousness is experienced/enjoyed. It's like a pot of water on the stove. We have flames (activity) , and the water ( consciousness) boils and bubbles. When we remove the heat the water (consciousness) settles down, and becomes calm, without ripples, bubbles. This is where this metaphor breaks down. When one transcends and experiences this pure awareness, it is boundless (there is no constraints of the pot). This is groomed and cultured over time. It is the experience of meditating daily that cultures the village of the senses to allow this state or condition to exist even in activity.
This is the condition of balance, that was discussed in this post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=10364&postcount=1 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=10364&postcount=1) .
As one practices transcending daily, stresses ( knots in the rope http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=8368&postcount=1 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=8368&postcount=1) ) are removed. One brings more and more if this restful alertness back into the waking state of life. One has clearer thinking, better health, More happiness is possible, the senses are refreshed and are able to do their job more effectively.

Once this state, turiya chetana, can be sustained in activity without it being overshadowed by actions,expreriences, stress, strain, then it is considered stable, and Cosmic (without bounds) consciousness is established.

Cosmic Consciousness - turiyatit chetana (sustained turiya consciousness)
In this state, one is associated with the SELF. Some call this Self referral. One is grounded in this silence, completely separate from activity. This Self referral Is there 7x24x365 days. It is Turiya that is established and experienced in ones consciousness , whether in waking, dream or sleep states. When Sri Krsna tells Arjuna be without the 3 gunas (BG 2.45, 2.50, 17, 3.19) established in the SELF (atman), He speaks of the Cosmic Consciousness, turiyatit chetana.
Now, when we talk of being non-attached to action, not concerned about the fruits of action, this is the stake of consciousness the rishi's and sages and masters are discussing. Not mood making or 'trying' to act like this BEFORE the state of consciousness exists. Its as if one is asking you to be a king, and you have no kingdom! Once this state of consciousness is established, then the SELF is established, one is of resolute intellect we associate ourselves with the SELF ( SELF referral).
Much can be said about this state. How one performs action, what becomes of the 3 gunas, etc . We will take this up if there is interest from the readers. Yet In this state, restful alertness ( a new functioning of the nervous system) is established and remains so. This is the baseline for further unfoldment to bhagavat chetana.

God consciousness or bhagavat chetana
In this state of consciousness, and developing this state of consciousness, one's perception improves. One is able to perceive the finest levels of creation. The senses are refined, not blocked from stresses and strains. One is able to view and appreciate HIS creation, the finest details, and the expression of Consciousness that manifests. This perception brings the highest level of apperception to ones heart as it swells with love of the Supreme, of the Divine. Its my opinion that Love defined, is the highest level of appreciation one can have. It is from this love that devotion to the Supreme gets established. This is bhakti. It is based upon the ability for one's consciousness to be pure, established in the SELF, one pointed, without knots. AS my teacher has said, this level of consciousness is based upon the silence that is realized and stabilized in turiyatit chetana.
Lets review before making the next point:
In Transcendental consciousness the silence that is experienced, is total silence, without activity, absorbed in the SELF, nothing else exists, as one transcends the nervous system can only entertain this level awareness while still, quiet. Then in Cosmic Consciousness one is established in the silence of the SELF, yet external to him/her there is activity ( work, actions, live buzzing around). There is me/Self and not-Self that can now be experienced. One can be In activity (walking/acting) yet the Silence of SELF never leaves.
Now, in God Consciousness, there is this silence of SELF AND activity into the one-ness of HIM. It’s a highly evolved state of silence with activity, simultaneously. You ask how can this be. Yes! This is Divine. This is the individual +SELF+God+activity , combined or attuned together. There is no thing that is not seen as an expression of His grace. It is this Omni-presence of silence that encompasses everything. Like akasha (space) it surrounds and is in everything - there is no-thing that it is not. Think on how highly evolved our nervous system is that allows this to happen.

Brahman Consciousness or brahmi chetana
This most evolved state is Supreme. All the mahavakya's ( great, full, robust sayings) point to this state of being. We hear many on this HDF praise these sayings and repeat and remind us of this level of Being. As I understand it, when one has this experience, it requires the master to assist and help - Tat tvam asi, That thou art. You no longer are in relationship to this creation, you ARE this creation, this Brahman. There is no duality, there is no other. Quite a profound state to experience. All things are an extension of you. There are no-things , as all is you . You are at home no matter where you are at, because it is you. 'This' is one homogeneous/ubiquitous expression of consciousness and you are that. There is nothing to be done, because all has been accomplished already. There is no past, present or future, as Brahman (aham brahmasmi) , one is amala ( a or 'not' + mala blemish or 'impurity'). Ones actions are universal and the actions of the Universe here on earth. One is full of and possessed of Dharma-megha , or cloud pouring virtue. What ever is willed (satya-samkalpah) bears fruit as the total universe is the support structure for this to occur. Yet what is there to be done? Only His Divine work.

What can be an example of this? Consider yourself a container, with a lid on it. You have a specific boundary of height and width, a volume. You are this akasha within this Boundary. This container then is broken and removed. You realize there is no difference from the space that was outside the container ( that held the container) to the Space within the container… you. There is no boundary of you, there is no difference of space (akasha). IT is one contiguous fullness (Bhuma) of existence.

" O Svetaketu, do you understand what I am telling you? This great but most essence of all the worlds is the Truth, the Atman, the Supreme Reality within you, and you are THAT" - sage Uddalaka, Chhandogya Upanishad

atanu
18 February 2007, 02:31 AM
Hari Om
--------

7 States of Consciousness - [as I have been taught] are the following:
Waking or jagrat chetana
Dreaming or swapn chetana
Dreamless Sleep or sushupti chetana
Transcendental Consciousness - turiya chetana
Cosmic Consciousness turiyatit chetana (sustained turiya consciousness)
God consciousness or bhagavat chetana
Brahman Consciousness or brahmi chetana
Each state of consciousness has a corresponding mind-body experience, and a world-surroundings experience ( perception). Lets start here:

----------

" O Svetaketu, do you understand what I am telling you? This great but most essence of all the worlds is the Truth, the Atman, the Supreme Reality within you, and you are THAT" - sage Uddalaka, Chhandogya Upanishad


Pranam Yajvan Ji,

I thought I would add in what my Guru teaches. YMMV.

Turiya is the Self and Brahman. The past, present, furure. All that Is and is yet to be. There is nothing less or more. This is the full. The Self has Pragnya, which is Sarvesvara.

Bhagwan being transcendental to Sarvesvara is not known.

Bauddhas use such seven laddered schemes. The so-called states beyond the Turiya are non-scriptural and have no shruti support. My Guru teaches that the various grades of Brahma vid are the perceptions of the onlookers. The differences are not there in Turiya itself.

Turiya -- the fourth is non-dual (Advaita) that has no second to it, so the other states are ornamental. Nor are they pratyaksha. Turiya being Brahman, what can grade it again -- if not the mind?


Regards,


Om Namah Shivayya

yajvan
18 February 2007, 10:53 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Pranam Yajvan Ji,
Turiya -- the fourth is non-dual (Advaita) that has no second to it, so the other states are ornamental. Nor are they pratyaksha. Turiya being Brahman, what can grade it again -- if not the mind?
Om Namah Shivayya

Namaste Atanu,
Thank you for your post... your knowledge is well grounded... Let me see if I can explain the POV I have been taught. My goal is the development of this idea, and the robust discussion, further advancing satya on this matter ( not one of my teachings are more accurate then others). So give me a little run way on some of these ideas to develop them a bit, and I look to your wisdom and your guru's for further discusion on this matter.

There is no doubt that the 4th is non-dual. Yet if this 4th is not stable and lived daily, it is only experienced during meditation , or in some cases a glimpse is experienced during the day when there is a 'balanced' period, and the senses are one-pointed.
I hear this happens often to musicians, when they are absorbed in their music. It has happened to me and is very natural. Some talk of the fleeting spiritual experience. It is very natural for one have this experience. As people, we have all the facilities to exprience this, and is not just for the sanyasi. I do agree that turiya is the foundation for all additional evolutionary stages of consciousness, yet the higher levels are distinct and how one cognizes the world is absolutely different in these higher stages of development.

re: Ornimental - It is my teaching that this turiya established on the level of the senses is an unfoldment process. Establishing this 4th level as cosmic consciousness ( some even call this establishing parame vyoman)
is establishing naishkarmyam, one has done what the Lord as instructed, be without the 3 guna's i.e. establihed turiya consciousness.

At this point of development there is SELF and non-SELF. this is the level of non-attachment the muni's described for eons. What is the native non-attached from ? the senses that pull one hear and there.
Do they now not function in this state of naishkarmyam? No, they just do not bind or attach - the SELF is independent and one lives this daliy.

Yet there is more, as this SELF and non-SELF needs to be brought together otherwise the words of All this is ONE is just flowery words. This is not a concept but a direct experience. Do I know sadhu's that have this consciousness and talk of it, yes. Very rewarding conversations. It is BEYOND just experiencing non-action and SELF, silence and action.

Established in this level of Being, now one can fully develop the heart and feelings , the Divine relationship with the Creator, if one chooses to do so, as now the sadhu has the credentials ( e.g. the nervous system and consciousness) for one pointed devotion and the facilities ( established in the SELF).

It is my firm belief, observation and experience , that to pretend to have this relationship with the Divine, one only fools himself on what sat-chi-ananda really is and has waisted their time on this good earth.

re: Scriptural - if we look to the chapters of the Gita, one can see this process of getting established in turiya, then developing it to God Consciousness. Perhaps you have a different view and I respect your view. I see this knowledge defined in the Gita, and the upanishads, and the fullness of Bhuma in the Brahmasutras. Yet more importantly ( to me ) is listening and being instructed by individual muni's that teach this knowledge from the level of their own being.

We obviously see waking, dream, sleep, and turiya consciousness called out in the Upanishads. ( Let me know if you wish to have the valli's on this)... Yet when we talk of God Consciousness, and Brahman consciousness the shastra's take on a different tack.

How so? Chapt 2.48 Krsna instructs Aruna , yogastha kuru karmani. The brilliance of skill in action, become established in union, then act. ( then no actions are binding, this is the wisdom of Krsna). Look to Chapt 5 that sets the stage for God Consciousness, yet 5.29 is key: Having known Me as the enjoyer of yagya's and austerities...the sadhu has raised himself to the level of His consciousness, by yagya and one's tapas, establishing God Consciousness. This is a new functioning , yet still based on the SELF being established a.k.a. the credentials for God consciousness. in the BG, chapt 6.29 to 6.32 calls out the relatiosnhip of union with God. To me this is very clear to this level of existence, and is a new level of consciousness.

If we look to the Svetsvatara Upanishad, another level of the relationship with the Lord. As Sveta ( pure) + asva ( senses) play a key role here in this Upanishad. True union with HIM is of key import (SU 1.10). This is outside samadhi, where meditation of , and meditated upon are one and the same, yet the merging with HIM , is the point at hand. Veditavyam, to be known, is just not turiya, but full knowledge in all the senses, intellect, etc.

We can move on to Brahman and discuss 'Kasmin bhagavo vihnate sarvam ideam vijnatam bhavati' - Saunaka's question to Angiras muni. What is that by knowing everything else can be known? This is the Level of Brahman consciousness I am referring to .

I look to your insights , comments and ideas so we both can be better equipped at this most robust knowledge.

pranams

sm78
19 February 2007, 12:05 AM
namaste shri yajvan,

may i request you to post a thread on the sapta-yog-bhumi and sapta-jnana-bhumi, which seems related to what u say here.

I don't want to post myself as my knowledge of scriptures is not good and would end up posting only my understanding.

Regards

atanu
19 February 2007, 05:39 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~
------
, 7 States of Consciousness - saptamtha chetana.
------- (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=10586&postcount=1)

7 States of Consciousness - [as I have been taught] are the following:
Waking or jagrat chetana
Dreaming or swapn chetana
Dreamless Sleep or sushupti chetana
Transcendental Consciousness - turiya chetana
Cosmic Consciousness turiyatit chetana (sustained turiya consciousness)
God consciousness or bhagavat chetana
Brahman Consciousness or brahmi chetana
Each state of consciousness has a corresponding mind-body experience, and a world-surroundings experience ( perception). Lets start here:

-------
sage Uddalaka, Chhandogya Upanishad

Namaskar Yajvan Ji,

I agree and have no doubt that a jiva experiencing Turiya does not become Turiya. Establishing in Turiya is further task.

But that is from the point of view of one seeking to attain.

On the other hand, the Turiya, which is Self and Brahman is Advaita and beyond consciousness itself. Other states of consciousness and other beings are not plausible for Turiya -- the advaita Self, in which consciousness sprouts.

Classifying Turiya as an intermediate state in a seven ladder of consciousness will definitely contradict Mandukya Upanishad, which defines Turiya as the Self and Brahman and Pragnya as Sarvesvara or Iswara. That 'one has experienced Turiya' itself is a misnomer -- what of states beyond?

However there are classes of various grades of Brahma Vid (Brahma Vid Vara etc.) that are valid from the point of view of onlookers.

Regards,


Om Namah Shivayya

atanu
19 February 2007, 06:59 AM
To summarise:

The Turiya of Mandukya Upanishad is the Advaita Self, indescribable, ungraspable, not consciousness, nor unconsciousness.

Thus, this Fourth being a state of consciousness is contradiction to Mandukya Upanishad.

Om Namah Shivayya

Znanna
19 February 2007, 09:04 AM
Namaste,

I would argue that these states are not separate, but all reflections of the same State. The perception that they are different, ordered (1 through 7) and the implied prioritizing of them can increase participation in difference, not sameness.

That said, I find the discussion very interesting! :D


Love,
ZN
/thanks for listening to my meleccha babble, all

saidevo
19 February 2007, 09:29 AM
Namaste Znanna and others,



I would argue that these states are not separate, but all reflections of the same State. The perception that they are different, ordered (1 through 7) and the implied prioritizing of them can increase participation in difference, not sameness.

That said, I find the discussion very interesting! :D

Love,
ZN
/thanks for listening to my meleccha babble, all

Meleccha babble? Far from it! I like the way your give your feedback, terse and deep like a borewell.

In other words, from a top-down viewpoint, Brahman who is always in the Turiya state thinks my thoughts, speaks my words, does my acts and dreams my dreams, gathering all the rubbish around him and wallowing in it, as it does in myriad droplets of other souls. Those droplets that make him, however, because of their artificial ahamkara, feel and maintain their separate identity, though they inexorably progress towards him.

Thus our real life is in the Turiya state of the deep, dreamless sleep and the other states are only our dreams, like the great king Janaka who wondered after a dream of seeing himself as a beggar, which was his real state, the king dreaming as beggar or the other way!

Gradations are necessary for us mortals to get a better mental picture. In this case, they might all be under the hieararchy of Turiya rather than some being above it.

atanu
19 February 2007, 11:45 AM
Namaste,

I would argue that these states are not separate, but all reflections of the same State. The perception that they are different, ordered (1 through 7) and the implied prioritizing of them can increase participation in difference, not sameness.

That said, I find the discussion very interesting! :D


Love,
ZN
/thanks for listening to my meleccha babble, all

Namaste,

Well said Zn. But still Turiya is transcendental (in itself) as well as participatory (through Taijjassa), since Turiya is defined as changeless.

Om Namah Shivayya

yajvan
19 February 2007, 02:02 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste Aranu, Saidevo, Znanna (et.al)

your points are well made and thought out...thank you.
Yes, this 4th ( turiya) is a thing that is difficult to describe, for as soon as you try, the words get in the way. To consider this a 4th 'state' of consciousness, is the effort to give some 'feel' of the possibilites. This 4th is unbounded, absolute, and in my post I tried to declare it is the home and origin of all consciousness. Yet with any discussion of what it is and what it is not, always, there is a hole in the final definition.
Znanna suggests " but all reflections of the same State". Yes, pending all this is consciousness, this is a valid and respected view, and concur.
Yet, One is challanged when discussing the unmanifest (auyakata). This is the Supreme Station param dhama ( some say akshara parabrahman).

So what was my intent (sankalpham) I started with for this post? Perhaps the answer is here.... It was to describe the path of unfoldment. Just as one goes on a trip and looks for markers along the way, these 7 states of consciousness is a 'mapping'. Is the map the actual territory one progresses on? Nope. It just helps. Like that.

Clear explainations ( upavyakhyanam ) is also complemented with practical experinences 'O yes! along the way the map said there would be an ice cream shop here, and we stopped and purchased a strawberry ice cream bar'. Like that also, the Upanishads can also point the way and describe the destination, yet it is my humble opinion that we ( sadhu's) need to take up the conversation of the spirit of the journey and milestones, this is satsang and the keeping of good company.

What would be a perfect example of this teaching? My favorite is Sanatkumara's instruction on Buma-vidya found in the Chhandogya Upanishad. This outstanding discussion between Narada ( a most wise being to begin with) and Sanatkumara (the divine one born of the mind-stuff of Brahma) takes him though 26 conditions of considering and understanding of Brahman this turiya, akshara parabrahman. Even though Brahman is turiya, undefinable, the master makes the knowlege useful to the sishya. Like that, we are in waking state of consciousness and we need height, width, depth, big, small, definable things to help us understand the un-definable. This is the blessings I have recevied from my teacher , to help me understand the undefinable.

Does the Mandukyopanishad assist , absolutely. One of my favorites and a pinnicle of knowledge, a prime Upanishad that all should read. It points out waking , dream and deep sleep, and describes turiya too:
"The wise think that the 4th, turiya, is not that which is conscious of the internal world ( our subjective experiences) nor that whcih is conscious of the external ( our objective world), nor that which is concious of both, nor that which is a compact mass of knowledge, nor that which is simple consciousness nor that which is insentient. It is unseen, unrelated, incomprehensible, undefinable, unthinkable, indescribable, the sole essence of the consciousness of the SLEF with no trace of the conditioned world, the peaceful , all bliss, non-dual. This is the atman, the Self and it is to be realized." Mandukyopanishad 1.7

It instructs on what turiya is NOT...this is good because if you try and describe IT, you have made it relative, gave it a size, and therefore no longer unbounded, yes? This is the pickle one gets in when trying to define the undefinable. It is best to experience it to remove doubts and this is possible to do no matter what station of life one lives.

Last point on this matter and I will let it rest and post some other ideas.
The point of Turiya as transcendental is absolutely true, of this there is no doubt. Yet, this Atman, this turiya is found in everything. It is the essential 'subject' in everything ( person, place, or thing, every noun, and verb that exists in this universe). The expansion into God and Brahman consciousness allows one to enjoy, rejoice, experience this Fullness (Bhuma) of Being , this Turyia within creation. All this is THAT. This bhagavat chetana & brahmi chetana brings this Truth to life. This is the wisdom of the great brahmarishi's and muni's that rejoiced in this satyam ritam bharat.



pranams, and all glory to HIM who breathes out the Ved - thank you for letting me discuss this wonderful knowledge... it is a joy to write these words.

atanu
20 February 2007, 12:26 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

--------

Last point on this matter and I will let it rest and post some other ideas.
The point of Turiya as transcendental is absolutely true, of this there is no doubt. Yet, this Atman, this turiya is found in everything. It is the essential 'subject' in everything ( person, place, or thing, every noun, and verb that exists in this universe). The expansion into God and Brahman consciousness allows one to enjoy, rejoice, experience this Fullness (Bhuma) of Being , this Turyia within creation. All this is THAT. This bhagavat chetana & brahmi chetana brings this Truth to life. This is the wisdom of the great brahmarishi's and muni's that rejoiced in this satyam ritam bharat.



pranams, and all glory to HIM who breathes out the Ved - thank you for letting me discuss this wonderful knowledge... it is a joy to write these words.

Namaskar Yajvan Ji,

Thank you for a detailed and useful exposition. The point I tried to make was (since I felt that it was important) that the fourth is beyond consciousness (Pragnya) and hence is not a state of consciousness.

Reagrds

Om Namah Shivayya