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Omkara
29 December 2012, 04:51 AM
It is often claimed that there are no references to reincarnation and karma in the veda samahitas and that the theory of karma and reincarnation is born of later speculation.

I seem to have found a reference in the Rig Veda Samahita that shows otherwise.I wonder why western indologists are so keen to try to show that modern hinduism has no basis in the vedas.

RV 10.16.3 The Sun receive thine eye, the Wind thy spirit; go, as thy merit is, to earth or heaven. Go, if it be thy lot, unto the waters; go, make thine home in plants with all thy members.

Omkara
29 December 2012, 09:38 AM
Has anybody else come across any such verses?

Jeffery D. Long
29 December 2012, 10:04 AM
This is a question that interests me a great deal. As you correctly state, the standard view in western academia is that the first explicit references to karma and rebirth are in the Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad, and that earlier Vedic literature contains, at most, poetic references possibly evocative of such ideas (such as the one you have quoted) but not the fully developed model of karma and rebirth found later. The assumption is generally that the more systematic model of the Upaniṣads evolved from simpler, earlier ideas.

In The Secret of the Veda, however, Sri Aurobindo makes a powerful argument for the claim that the fully developed system of Vedānta, including karma and rebirth, is already present in the Ṛg Veda, but that the terminology used is of a more symbolic and evocative character. He essentially turns the western indological model on its head. Whereas the western model has Vedānta developing gradually, from the Saṃhitās and then through the Brāhmaṇas, Āraṇyakas, and Upaniṣads, Aurobindo says that the entire system was already known by the original ṛṣis and that the later texts are of an explanatory nature, making explicit what was already known, but esoteric.

philosoraptor
29 December 2012, 10:53 AM
I wonder why western indologists are so keen to try to show that modern hinduism has no basis in the vedas.


There is a saying that one cannot be a philosopher unless one disagrees with the established philosophers. Many academics in Indology would not have a job if they acknowledged that the secrets of vedAnta were already known to the AchAryas. They have to propose alternate paradigms such as saMhitA-s are older than upaniShads, etc. Otherwise they will lose their grant money.

Arjunesh
29 December 2012, 11:32 AM
There is a saying that one cannot be a philosopher unless one disagrees with the established philosophers. Many academics in Indology would not have a job if they acknowledged that the secrets of vedAnta were already known to the AchAryas. They have to propose alternate paradigms such as saMhitA-s are older than upaniShads, etc. Otherwise they will lose their grant money.


I believe 100 percent in yr statement.
kind regards

Arjunesh

jignyAsu
05 February 2013, 11:33 AM
Just wanted to express my appreciation for the effort. The indologists no doubt had an agenda to break all the scriptures apart saying that they were all unrelated works of fiction.

Atleast, refuting such Purva pakshis make us firmer on our path :).

Omkara
08 March 2013, 08:28 PM
Satay's post in another thread makes a good addition to this thread-


namaste Maha,

Chapter VIII, Jivatma and the doctine of Re-Birth, the author explains quiet nicely that the concept of reincarnation is very much part of the Vedas. To think that Rg veda does not contain any reference about jivatma and its re-birth and that these are found in the Brahmana portions of a later origin is quite erroneous.

According to the author, the Vedas do no only contemplate that the earth is the only place of abode of the Jivas but place such as swarloka, pittloka, Yamaloka and Bhurloka are all mentioned in the Vedas where Jiva migrates to. In this regard, Atma or soul is called 'Suparna' or Bird in the Vedas. There is a mention of a famous Rigvedic mantra which I can't seem to type here in my post but it contains the word suparna in it.

It is mentioned that just as the Rigveda recognises the existence of the human beings, it also recognises the existence of the manes and the devas.

By Karma men attain to the state of the devas. From Rk 1.38.4 and 1.77.2 it can be known that the Maruts were originally men but became devas through karma. The Rbhus who were sons of Sudhanva of the Angira clan, became devas by karma (Vide Rk 1.161.2, 1.110.2)

The Angrias, atharva and Bhrgu attained the state of the Pitr (Manes) Rk 1.172, 10.14.4, 10.14.6. and so on and so forth such things are mentioned in the Rg.

From all this it can be asserted that it is an error to say that doctrine of transmigration and re-birth is of later origins.

MahaHrada
09 March 2013, 06:50 AM
It is often claimed that there are no references to reincarnation and karma in the veda samahitas and that the theory of karma and reincarnation is born of later speculation.

I seem to have found a reference in the Rig Veda Samahita that shows otherwise.I wonder why western indologists are so keen to try to show that modern hinduism has no basis in the vedas.

RV 10.16.3 The Sun receive thine eye, the Wind thy spirit; go, as thy merit is, to earth or heaven. Go, if it be thy lot, unto the waters; go, make thine home in plants with all thy members.

This verse is about the body, life force and indriyas all the constituents of the body and mind, dissolving and returning to the associated elements after death, like earth, wind, water and so forth. So it is about impermanence and interdependence of individualised human life and mind with the rest of the universe. A vedic concept that later became prominent in Buddhism. The ability of sight goes for instance to the sun, since seeing is associated with the sun, other indriyas go of course elsewhere, this is implied here, the breath to the air etc. the decomposed body to the earth and therefore it turns into nourishment for plants. It is really sometimes heartbreaking to read this forum, what a sad state of things. Actually there is a sequence during death in which the indriyas and pranas each dissolve and cease to function and what symptoms are associated with this dissolution, which becomes important in later tantric teachings.

Omkara
09 March 2013, 07:10 AM
This verse is about the body, life force and indriyas all the constituents of the body and mind, dissolving and returning to the associated elements after death, like earth, wind, water and so forth. So it is about impermanence and interdependence of individualised human life and mind with the rest of the universe. A vedic concept that later became prominent in Buddhism. The ability of sight goes for instance to the sun, since seeing is associated with the sun, other indriyas go of course elsewhere, this is implied here, the breath to the air etc. the decomposed body to the earth and therefore it turns into nourishment for plants. It is really sometimes heartbreaking to read this forum, what a sad state of things.

You are hopelessly out of depth arguing with hindus about the meaning of their scripture.:)

Let us examine this sukta in detail-
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10016.htm

This sukta is in praise of Agni in the form if the cremation fire, as seen from the lines-
1. Burn him not up, nor quite consume him, Agni: let not his body or his skin be scattered O Jātavedas, when thou hast matured him, then send him on his way unto the Fathers.
4 Thy portion is the goat: with heat consume him: let thy fierce flame, thy glowing splendour, burn him With thine auspicious forms, o Jātavedas, bear this man to the region of the pious.
9 1 send afar flesh eating Agni, bearing off stains may he depart to Yama's subjects But let this other Jātavedas carry oblation to the Gods, for he is skilful.

Now, the sukta says-
3 The Sun receive thine eye, the Wind thy spirit; go, as thy merit is, to earth or heaven. Go, if it be thy lot, unto the waters; go, make thine home in plants with all thy members.

This makes it clear that the state attained in the afterlife is based on a person's karma, and also that after death a person may come back to the earth, or go to heaven, or live in the waters.

5 Again, O Agni, to the Fathers send him who, offered in thee, goes with our oblations. Wearing new life let him increase his offspring: let him rejoin a body, Jātavedas.

A clear reference to the soul of a dead person being given a new body.

MahaHrada
09 March 2013, 07:15 AM
You are hopelessly out of depth arguing eith hindus about the meaning of their scripture.:)

Let us examoline this sukta in detail-
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10016.htm

This sukta is in praise of Agni in the form if the cremation fire, as seen from the lines-
1. Burn him not up, nor quite consume him, Agni: let not his body or his skin be scattered O Jātavedas, when thou hast matured him, then send him on his way unto the Fathers.
4 Thy portion is the goat: with heat consume him: let thy fierce flame, thy glowing splendour, burn him With thine auspicious forms, o Jātavedas, bear this man to the region of the pious.
9 1 send afar flesh eating Agni, bearing off stains may he depart to Yama's subjects But let this other Jātavedas carry oblation to the Gods, for he is skilful.

Now, the sukta says-
3 The Sun receive thine eye, the Wind thy spirit; go, as thy merit is, to earth or heaven. Go, if it be thy lot, unto the waters; go, make thine home in plants with all thy members.

This makes it clear that the state attained in the afterlife is based on a person's karma, and also that after death a person may come back to the earth, or go to heaven, or live in the waters.

5 Again, O Agni, to the Fathers send him who, offered in thee, goes with our oblations. Wearing new life let him increase his offspring: let him rejoin a body, Jātavedas.

A clear reference to the soul of a dead person being given a new body.

Of course after dissolving the elements of his impermanent body and leaving it behind, he gains another subtle body to go to pitris.... O Agni, to the Fathers send him....

The sukta begins with the following verses:

1. Burn him not up, nor quite consume him, Agni: let not his body or his skin be scattered. (that means it is a prayer to the cremation fire to not burn his body during life, and transfer (mature) his permanent self to the ancestors and to not entirely reduce him to naught)
O Jātavedas, when thou hast matured him, then send him on his way unto the Fathers.
2 When thou hast made him ready, Jātavedas, then do thou give him over to the Fathers.
When he attains unto the life that waits him, (after his impermanent body is consumend by agni= cremation fire after death, and returnend , each part to the proper cosmic element) he shall become the Deities' controller. (That means when he lives in the afterlife among his ancestors he is made a controller even of the deities)

Omkara
09 March 2013, 07:26 AM
Of course after dissolving the elements of his impermanent body and leaving it behind, he gains another subtle body to go to pitris.... O Agni, to the Fathers send him....

The sukta begins with the following verses:



3 The Sun receive thine eye, the Wind thy spirit; go, as thy merit is, to earth or heaven. . Go, if it be thy lot, unto the waters; go, make thine home in plants with all thy members

MahaHrada
09 March 2013, 07:39 AM
3 The Sun receive thine eye, the Wind thy spirit; go, as thy merit is, to earth or heaven. . Go, if it be thy lot, unto the waters; go, make thine home in plants with all thy members

This as you can see is a description of the death and cremation process, and "merit" here means that each element must go to the correct cosmic element and not somewhere else, that is individual breath to cosmic air, individual limbs to the plants, because plants for instance trees are the limbs of the earth because they grow out of it, like the limbs grow out of the torso etc. So each element goes to its own place according to his "merit."

This is important since, the "rahasyam" of this vedic verse is that if you want to gain a cosmic body after death, you have to leave the egocentric attitude behind, to achieve that you have to map the parts of the individual body in a sort of "nyasa" to the corresponding part of the cosmic body to identify both. To prevent doing that in a wrong way, due to your delusion and map for instance the breath to a wrong cosmic element, this is mentioned explictly.

In case you doubt that it is the cremation fire that is adressed in the first part of the sukta, you look at the part that follows where this "flesh eating agni" is send away.

9 I send afar flesh eating Agni, bearing off stains may he depart to Yama's subjects.
But let this other Jātavedas carry oblation to the Gods, for he is skilful.

Omkara
09 March 2013, 08:21 AM
This as you can see is a description of the death and cremation process, and "merit" here means that each element must go to the correct cosmic element and not somewhere else, that is individual breath to cosmic air, individual limbs to the plants, because plants for instance trees are the limbs of the earth because they grow out of it, like the limbs grow out of the torso etc. So each element goes to its own place according to his "merit."



Anyone getting a sense of deja vu here? This is even worse than your claim that 'Yatha Purvam' does not mean 'as before'.

The person being addressed is clearly stated to be the posessor of various organs(The Sun receive thine eye, the Wind thy spirit). Thus the person being addressed is the person who is burning on the pyre. Then, it is said- Go, as thy merit is, to earth or heaven. How is it that the person being addressed changed suddenly to the organs?(According to your interpretation)

Omkara
09 March 2013, 09:14 AM
RV 1.164.38 The immortal cognate with the mortal, affected by (desire of)
enjoyment, goes to the lower or the upper sphere.

MahaHrada
09 March 2013, 10:18 AM
Anyone getting a sense of deja vu here? This is even worse than your claim that 'Yatha Purvam' does not mean 'as before'.

The person being addressed is clearly stated to be the posessor of various organs(The Sun receive thine eye, the Wind thy spirit). Thus the person being addressed is the person who is burning on the pyre. Then, it is said- Go, as thy merit is, to earth or heaven. How is it that the person being addressed changed suddenly to the organs?(According to your interpretation)

It is clearly said in this sukta, where the person is destined to be going, and that several times:

O Jātavedas, when thou hast matured him, then send him on his way unto the Fathers.
2 When thou hast made him ready, Jātavedas, then do thou give him over to the Fathers.
o Jātavedas, bear this man to the region of the pious.
Again, O Agni, to the Fathers send him

So how more often has this to repeated, in such a short sukta until you realise that it is birth among the pitris, where the destination of the non corporal part of the deceased is and that it is solely the corporal, the impermanent, that is returned to the cosmic elements that once originated them?

Prior to that transformation his individual constituting elements dissolve and return to the universee, see the Mundaka upanishad which presents cognate ideas.

The fire is his head, the sun and moon his eyes; the dimensions of space his ears; his speech emitted the veda-s, the air is his breath; all existence his heart. From his feet emerged the earth; he is verily the inner consciousness of all beings.

Mundaka upanishad

philosoraptor
09 March 2013, 10:23 AM
I agree with Omkar on this one. This is clearly describing birth and rebirth based on one's puNyam or pApam. This description is reminiscent of the one given in chAndogya upaniShad of the living entity who goes to heaven and then comes down as rain, is ingested via grains, and planted within the womb via seminal discharge.

MahaHrada
09 March 2013, 10:24 AM
I agree with Omkar on this one. This is clearly describing birth and rebirth based on one's puNyam or pApam.

Thats a surprise i thought you agree with me as usual :)

In Sanskrit there is no mention of papam or punyam but it properly says "according to its destination".

sUryam cakshur gachatu vAtam AtmA dyAM ca gacha prithivim ca dharmaNA
apo vA gacha yadi tatra te hitam osHadhIshu prati tistha sharIraiH

philosoraptor
09 March 2013, 10:28 AM
Thats a surprise i thought you agree with me as usual :)

Maybe some day when I'm old and senile...

satay
09 March 2013, 11:46 AM
Namaste Maha,


This as you can see is a description of the death and cremation process, and "merit" here means that each element must go to the correct cosmic element

Where are you getting this stuff from?

Doctrine of karma is in the Vedas is clearly shown by swami devananda Giri in the 'Vedic culture' book I mentioned.

MahaHrada
09 March 2013, 12:10 PM
Namaste Maha,



Where are you getting this stuff from?

Doctrine of karma is in the Vedas is clearly shown by swami devananda Giri in the 'Vedic culture' book I mentioned.

I studied these subjects since i was about six years old in this life, it is therefore from 50 years of almost constant study and practice that is where i get "this stuff" from.

philosoraptor
09 March 2013, 04:54 PM
I studied these subjects since i was about six years old in this life, it is therefore from 50 years of almost constant study and practice that is where i get "this stuff" from.

Then how come you don't know what yathA pUrvaM means? Can we assume that you have little regard for the scholarly credentials of your teachers?