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orlando
30 December 2012, 12:14 PM
Namaste all.

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET9909/ET22-4780.html

We can see that in his book "Prabhupada Lilamrita",Satsvarupa didn't always tell the truth about Srila Prabhupada'Godbrothers.

Pranama,
Orlando.

ShivaFan
31 December 2012, 03:54 AM
Namaste Orlando

I checked into the background of this website and its organization. By the way, all activity on this site in the link you provided to www.vnn.org (http://www.vnn.org/) (Vaishnava News Network) looks like it has ceased being an active site since 2007 with basically no one adding input or administering it.

It appears one of its agendas, by representing itself as an independent Vaishnava site independent of ISKCON to bring news for all variations of Vaishnava sampradayas, in facts appears to be a few authors who are (perhaps former or scandalized) ISKCON members who have a keen interest in various sampradaya struggles between different Maths, ISKCON and the Gaudiya Math.

As with all such conflicts and passions, and personal vendettas and such, any comments from such individuals published on the internet are probably subject to question. To be quite frank about it, and without taking any sides on this, sometimes those involved start to see the world which narrows down into very odd fixations that can literally make some of their sensibilities be perhaps subject to lunacy.

I have never read this “Lilammriita” about Prabhupad authored by Satsvarupa Dasa Goswami (Prabhupada Lilamrita), which was published in the early 1980s. Of course, he was one of the top GBC initiating Gurus of ISKCON, his direct relationship with Prabhupad starting in 1966 and later was a personal servant and secretary to Prabhupad. Obviously, he knew Prabhupad very, very well.

This Satsvarupa is the person who is being attacked by the author of the article you are sharing with the HDF.

Let me make clear, I am not calling anyone a lunatic regarding these matters, but you have to be very careful. Opinions expressed in such articles from individuals need to be approached with care. They can be so convoluted, any logic and foresight, and truth becomes obscured by odd fixations as so noted. The “toaster” doesn’t toast bread anymore, it is turned into a incense burner, which may actually be functional in some cases but is also, well, dangerous.

For example, the same “Vaishnava News Network” website hosting this article also reports an alleged statement by Jayapataka Swami (another GBC ISKCON Guru) which alleges he had strong suspicions that the Gaudiya Math “poisoned Prabhupad” in the final days of the ISKCON founder by feeding him tainted food when, it is alleged, Prabhupad for some reason was very close the Gaudiya Math just prior to leaving the world. Of course, we also see the article from them that you provided in your link that seems to support a very different viewpoint regarding the Gauidya Matha by Hrsikesananda Das.

Now this Hrsikesananda Das appears to be located somewhere in Bangkok Thailand, his original name was Richard Brown of the 1960’s rock group “The Misunderstood”, sometime probably in the early 1970’s he became a disciple of Prabhupad, but after a jint in India he became involved with a well-known leader and associate of Prabhupad who was one of the leaders in the Gaudiya Math. So this Prabhupad devotee then identified with this Math. However, later he ended up in Thailand involved with ruby and gemstone business, mining, and “talismans” (lucky charms), and making money selling “aura” gems and such.

I am not sure what is your point or opinion in sharing this link “Prabhupad Innocent – ISKCON Guilty” which is authored by the same Hrsikesananda Das. I am not being rude or anything, but I don’t understand. Are you a member of this Gaudiya Math, or involved in Hrsikesananda’s “gem” business?

In this article by this (former?) ISKCON devotee, he seems upset with the well-known ISKCON Guru named Satsvarupa Maharaj. He seems to have been offended by some tape Satsvarupa sent him in which had some negative comments about this same Gaudiya Math Swami that the author Hrsikesananda Das became involved with while he was in India.

Basically this obviously all involves “infighting” between some ISKCON (former or present) members who like some of Prabhupad’s “God brothers” (e.g. in the Gaudiya Math) and some ISKCON Gurus (typically Westerners) who perhaps did not like them as much.

The “jist” or summary as I read it of this article you presented is that in the eyes of this Hrsikesananda Das, who became involved with the Gaudiya Math somehow through one of Prabhupad’s “God brothers” (actually, close friends of A.C. Bhaktivedanta (Praphupad) going way back even before the time he left to the USA), Hrsikesananda is saying in so many words that Prabhupad is “good” (e.g. probably he has to say that, I mean considering he is an initiated disciple of Prabhupad who thus is his Guru) but while Prabhupad is “good” the later-day Gurus within ISKCON and other such devotees are “bad” since they are critical of some aspects of the Gaudiya Math. Thus “Prabhupad is innocent” and “ISKCON is ‘guilty’” (or something like that).

I am not sure this article has much value other than that. I am not exactly even sure anyone on the HDF would even understand the point of it. Again, I am not trying to be critical of you, I know you are a good devotee and I really like you a lot, but I am confused as to what the point was in posting this. Even among ISKCON followers, I think this gemologist is a rather obscure individual unknown to probably most followers of ISKCON?

Please accept my apologizes if I misunderstood anything or sound too critical.

Om Namah Sivaya

orlando
31 December 2012, 05:40 AM
Namaste ShivaFan.


I am not sure what is your point or opinion in sharing this link “Prabhupad Innocent – ISKCON Guilty” which is authored by the same Hrsikesananda Das.

Nowdays ISKCON is a sectarian istitution who says that devotes must not contact not-ISKCON guru and not to read their literature.

When Srila Prabhupada was in this world,it is true that he said his disceples to not middle with his godbrother.
But is just because they would have been confused if another guru explained them Krishna Consciousness in a different way.

But near the end of this life he apologised for cricting his god-brother and explained the reason why he offendend them.
Than he told his disceples to take instruction from Sridara Marahaja and other gurus.

But they dind't since they still believed in his precedent statement to not middle with his godbrother and guru.

So today ISKCON is a sectarian instituion who offend not-ISKCON gurus and pure devotes.

And offence to vaishnavas cannot be accepted since Lord Krishna may forgive the ones who offend His lotus feet but not the one who offend His loving devotes.
Offences to vaishnava can mean the spiritual death of even very advanced devotes.

Ultimately my points are the following:

1)Since a true realized vaishnava is not sectarian and doesn't offend other vaishnavas,ultimately it is not wise to take shelter to an ISKCON guru.

In fact I am going to meet a not-ISKCON gaudiya-vaishnava guru.

2)The offensive and sectarian ISKCON politics doesn't mirror true gaudiya-vaishnavism.

3)It is not true that Srila Prabhupada offended like that his Godbrothers.

Please note that my criticism refers only to ISKCON leaders,not even to all sincere ISKCON devotees who sincerely are sheltered to ISKCON gurus.

Pranama,
Orlando.

ShivaFan
31 December 2012, 02:18 PM
Namaste Orlando

Thanks for clarifying this, I appreciate your points. Let me note a couple of thoughts, I do not mean to be disrespectful.

Such infighting is typical of what always happens after a notable Guru or religious leader, Saint and so on leaves the body. As far as sampradayas, it happens and has happened with Saivas, Vaishnavs, Shaktas, and so on, and will happen again in the future as is shown throughout history.

But you should not get too involved in all of this. Because what is also typical is that these controversies often become minor footnotes, and in cases when they do not it results in the major schisms we see has occurred in the past and only speaks towards the strengths or weaknesses of a religious institution.

Honestly, if the fixation is on such rather minor questions in the overall perspective of things is what drives the mind and wastes the time of devotees or Hindus or aspirants to the point the aspirant is literally living day in and day out constantly harping on it, their "world" will quickly become very small. In regards to the author of this article, within the next 20 years perhaps or less his body will be dead and his webpage will have disappeared as just electronic dust from pretty much the entire world and his "name" will not even be a one line footnote in the history of things that have been or will be in future.

You do not need to fret Orlando, just continue to do the good devotion that you can in Seva and in Bhakti. Let the fools fight with each other. I would recommend not to get involved in "guru bashing", the bigger picture is much more vast and frankly sometimes complicated than imagined. All sorts of souls and personalities are standing in the "temple" of things past, present and future, you will never be able to understand the clockwork of each of these souls or why they do what they do. As far as we know, perhaps this author had some high esteem for his own self worth, and perhaps he believed he was not given enough attention, that he should have been the personal servant of Prabhupad and not Satsvarupa, that perhaps he should have been the GBC, that perhaps he should have been the next Guru established as the authority after Prabhupad himself, I don't know. Perhaps he is simply as I suspect, a former and rather minor if unknown "rock star" who became initiated by Prabhupad but wanted more attention than perhaps deserved and went off to prove himself by attaching himself to one of Prabhupad's God Brothers (while also then becoming involved in the gem talisman business and other get rich quick schemes), but overall he is a very good soul.

But I do have one thought. Do you think Satsvarupa is one of those Gurus you speak of who are failed, who betrayed Prabhupad? I do not know anything, but I suspect he is a much greater soul than you imagine. He is still alive, I believe. Perhaps you can ask him about his dedication. You do not need to worry about writing and asking him. He suffered some painful medical condition early in this decade, he might not be around much longer, but he seems to be a very open type of soul who may respond to your inquiry. Do you think Satsvarup is your enemy? I would guess he is not, and you and him share a lot of things perhaps. You could also email the author of the article you shared if it still is a valid account, he may respond but also be wise that he may ask you to give him money to "participate" in what he considers his very important goal. All of us, if still alive, will see what comes from such infighting in time. If ISKCON is self controlled, in the end it will not schism into dozens of little and eventually forgotten petty groups of individuals living in a world that only attacks, or if it comes through all of this and continues to give light to the world. Personally, I predict the later.

I pretty much have said everything I have to say, and in frankly bored with it and will have nothing more to say. Besides, I am too ignorant of the story to comment further, so this will be the end of my comments, again I wish the best to all.

Om Namah Shivaya

orlando
31 December 2012, 02:37 PM
Namaste ShivaFan


You do not need to fret Orlando, just continue to do the good devotion that you can in Seva and in Bhakti.

The point is that I cannot even dream to obtain Krishna-prema(love for Krishna) if don't love a His pure devote,a self-realized guru.

In the Adi-purana,Lord Krishna says to Arjuna:
"My dear Partha, one who claims to be My devotee is not so. Only a person who claims to be the devotee of My devotee is actually My devotee."

Lord Krishna cannot be approached directly by a conditioned soul like me.
I can approach Him only through His pure devotee,the guru.

Since I have absolutely find and take shelter at the lotus feet of a Krishna's pure devotee,I have to be sure to find a true self-realized guru.

Pranama,
Orlando.

Anirudh
02 January 2013, 01:08 PM
The point is that I cannot even dream to obtain Krishna-prema(love for Krishna) if don't love a His pure devote,a self-realized guru.

Namaste Orlando,

I am not enlightened to criticize your views nor have read BG to an extent to quote, kindly pardon me if my words give you that kind of impression.

What ever I say here is from my personal experiences. Krishna Prema is not a thing to achieve through some means. It s like parents love, free from any kind of expectation. It is purely unconditional. A parent love can not be learnt and practiced. It ll just flow out if the parent is unconditional.

Through your mind treat Krishna as your child. Start loving your mAnasika child. If you want me to elaborate feel free to send me a PM. I will be elated to serve a devotee of Shreeman Naaraayan, at the same time it s not wise thing to force unwarranted ideas on others.

I happen to read (both) your quitting message and the comeback announcement message. My respect for the devotee in you is exponentially multiplying up on observing the quality of messages you have posted here since your comeback.

May Shree Raama Chandra Prabhu be guiding you every moment there by placing you on the pedestal of infinite intelligence.

Gaurapriya
02 January 2013, 01:48 PM
I am a follower of Srila Sridhar Maharaj, (Srila Prabhupada's Godbrother) although informally. I consider him to be my shiksha guru, and it is by his teachings that I try to live my life in this Krishna conception.

The infighting between devotees, as ShivaFan has mentioned, is quite normal. I feel that in the modern world, we should all try to keep Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga at the forefront of our minds, and forget everything else. Without Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga, there is no Krishna-prema, there is no prema-bhakti.

Sri Guru is a personal and eternal thing. While institutions and mathas may crumble away, Sri Guru is everlasting and the personification of Sriman Mahaprabhu's mercy upon us!

While I still dislike that this entire subforum is for ISKCONites, rather than in the 'Vaishnavism' section, still as Gaudiya Vaishnavas, sectarianism should be considered an offense to other devotees. I pray that devotees will be more united in their love for the Holy Name, and for Sri Chaitanyadeva's most merciful incarnation of God's Divine Love. :)

Haribol.