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smaranam
24 January 2013, 06:08 AM
|| om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~ ||

Namaste and praNAm to all

The statements below are open to discussion. Please feel free to jump in and participate anytime.

1. Shri KRshNa ParamAtmA is the AtmA in all sentient beings as well as beginning middle and end of creation/universe. BG 10.20 (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-10-18.html)

2. Shri KRshNa PramAtmA is omnipresent inside and outside all pervading like the sky. BG 13.16 (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-13-10.html)

3. Jiva is an aMsha (part) of Shri KRshNa ParamAtmA. BG 15.7 (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-15-06.html)

In chapter 2 KRshNa says AtmA cannot be cut, torn, burnt...
So what does "a part of Me" mean ? For the moment we say "like a ray of the Sun." "Sky in the pot" is also fine.

However, there is more to this than just "ray of the Sun." It has more to do with the inseperableness of Purusha from His Pure ParA-PrakRti which is eternal like Him. As we shall see in the next key verses.

4. What exactly is this substance called Jiva? Is it AtmA? is it PrakRti?
Shri BhagavAn uvAcha: Jiva is my second, higher (parA), eternal PrakRti . BG 7.5 (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-07-05.html)

to be continued...

_/\_

smaranam
24 January 2013, 09:32 AM
|| om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~ ||


4. What exactly is this substance called Jiva? Is it AtmA? is it PrakRti?
Shri BhagavAn uvAcha: Jiva is my second, higher (parA), eternal PrakRti . BG 7.5 (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-07-05.html)



Several things about BG 7.5
(i) Is BhagvAn Shri KRshNa talking about jivas bound in saMsAr ONLY? In that case, what about liberated jivas, not in the material body?
There is no need to read something more into this verse than what the Lord is saying. He uses the word parA prakRti.

(ii) In the next verse, BG 7.6 (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-07-06.html) He shows that He is the source and cause of these TWO prakRtis.

So jiva is prakRti ?? Then what is all the meditation about "I am AtmA" "I am That" ?

!! What really happens is that the pure subtle marginal energy called jiva
(marginal because it has the tendency to get free from or be bound to saMsAr), as a seeker of liberation / pure transcendental service, becomes
either

A] aligned with [param]AtmA - the nirAkAr aspect (temporarily or permanently) - this is dhyAn yog and nirvikalpa samAdhi and the saMskRt word leen is perfect in this case.
In Hindi : ParamAtmA me leen honA.
Here the jiva is lost deep into paramAtmA's arms Who is cradling the jiva.
The jiva is a passive participant, but has awareness and intimate closeness to the Whole, and identifies with the Whole. This is what we call "being One with or merging with the [param]AtmA"

OR

B] engaged in pure devotional service TO [param]AtmA (temporarily or permanently). This is also alignment (paramAtmA me leen hona) in one sense, except the jiva is actively interacting with BhagvAn, the Supreme Person.

In both cases, the jiva prakRti exists - either dormant or active.

What tells us that the jiva prakRti is never extinguished? Several verses, but for now, BG 15.16,17,18 as seen shortly.

5. Before going over to BG 15.16,17,18, let us look at a few other points.

(i) AtmA does not act ,
(ii) PrakRti is the doer
(iii) but jiva should not think she is the doer - that would be ignorance

- BG 5.9 (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-05-08.html) BG 3.27 (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-03-27.html)

What? But isn't jiva prakRti? Yes, but a very very subtle, sUkshma, HIGHER prakRti of the Lord, albeit marginal. Not the entire sum total of unmanifest avyakta PrakRti (DurgA).

When we say prakRti acts, this means, the lower (aparA) prakRti which makes the instruments of action (eyes, nose...) - jnAnendrIya and karmendriya, are doing the work. Of course, they are monitored by the Devi called PrakRti who is infinite and a Shakti (energy) of the lord.

Here the material mind, when not in control of jiva, is but another indrIya (sense organ).

Therefore, a purified mind, completely dovetailed into yoga - be it bhakti yog , karma yog, jnAna yog or rAja/dhyAna yog, is the key to the secret door.


In the next posts :

6. What about upadRshtA, the witness ? Is it [param]AtmA or jiva?
7. Which words of Shri KRshNa give us a clue to either the jiva's identity, individuality or eternity or the lack of it?

praNAm _/\_

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

smaranam
25 January 2013, 04:55 AM
|| om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~ ||

NOTES:

* Shri KRshNa uses the word AtmA for Himself, and we understand that as ParamAtmA, the all-pervading omniscient omnipotent Lord.

* Translators, AchArya, have used the term jivAtmA or AtmA for the individual soul although this exact term is not in the Gita. That is because, while the jiva is parA prakRti (higher energy) of the Supreme Lord, it is the 'sva' or 'Atman' or the 'self' of the individual. The highest AtmA is called paramAtmA in that case, to distinguish.

*EDIT 06/05* The word kshetrajn~a refers to [param]AtmA because He is the knower, ruler and controller of the kshetra (field, the body) -- [See Bh. Gita Chapter 13].

* The abheda (oneness) messages in VedAnta shruti (the heard) have a very beautiful and noble intention of Atma-bhAv towards all. The jiva prakRti is the Lord's own prakRti, hence in its purest state it is said to be Brahman because it is perfectly aligned with Brahman. This is how jiva = Brahman.

* The intimate relationship between jiva and Brahman (which the Lord always knew but the jiva realized in her purest state owing to bhakti) makes Brahman insist "You and I are One, there is no distance between Us" "I am the voice of your heart" "When you speak it is Me speaking" -- This is the result of ananya bhakti only - marching in step with the Supreme Lord. The jiva may continue to serve Brahman-ParamAtmA-BhagavAn.

This will not happen if/as long as the jiva is engrossed in material pursuits. Bhagvan will never impose Himself on a jiva who wants to swim in the world independant of Him.

* When jiva lives in nirvikalpa samadhi thru nirAkAr sadhana (spiritual practice seeking the formless) it has no consciousness of its seperate existence, merely awareness of Brahman. This is how the akshar (imperishable) parA (higher) prakRti (nature & energy) of the Supreme Brahman attains Brahman. This cannot be acheived without ananya bhakti (one-pointed devotion) to the Supreme Bhagvan and His Grace.

* So, questions like "does the Self-realized become omniscient or have other siddhis" are not relevant here, because it is not the nature of 'ananya bhakti' to ask such questions. Bestowing a siddhi completely depends on the Will of the Supreme Lord, Who is the one bestowing. However, desires and expectations are an obstacle to liberation and we are told not to run after or get carried away by siddhis as ahaMkaar can manifest itself and be an obstacle.

When KRshNa ate a mouthful of the flat rice (poha) that Sudama brought with love, but was shy to offer, KRshNa was so overwhelmed with love that He showered wealth and prosperity on Sudama, but started giving him the trailokya (the three worlds) when RukmiNi who is Lakshmi Devi, stopped Him (just in time). Sudama had children, lived in extreme poverty, yet he did not utter a word to ask KRshNa for anything. Such is bhakti.


_/\_

|| om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~ ||

Amrut
26 January 2013, 10:07 AM
|| om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~ ||

Namaste and praNAm to all

The statements below are open to discussion. Please feel free to jump in and participate anytime.

1. Shri KRshNa ParamAtmA is the AtmA in all sentient beings as well as beginning middle and end of creation/universe. BG 10.20 (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-10-18.html)

2. Shri KRshNa PramAtmA is omnipresent inside and outside all pervading like the sky. BG 13.16 (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-13-10.html)

3. Jiva is an aMsha (part) of Shri KRshNa ParamAtmA. BG 15.7 (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-15-06.html)

In chapter 2 KRshNa says AtmA cannot be cut, torn, burnt...
So what does "a part of Me" mean ? For the moment we say "like a ray of the Sun." "Sky in the pot" is also fine.

However, there is more to this than just "ray of the Sun." It has more to do with the inseperableness of Purusha from His Pure ParA-PrakRti which is eternal like Him. As we shall see in the next key verses.

4. What exactly is this substance called Jiva? Is it AtmA? is it PrakRti?
Shri BhagavAn uvAcha: Jiva is my second, higher (parA), eternal PrakRti . BG 7.5 (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-07-05.html)

to be continued...

_/\_

Namaste,

I will try to answer your question.

----

This will be my personal opinion and since I ma practicing Advaita, they will have Advaita Tinge. I have not read shastras from other stand point.

----

Bhagavad Gita is the essence of Upanishads or vedanta. Ved-anta means end part of vedas, which contains essence of vedas. Gita is the essence of Upanishads.

So Bhagavan is the one who is speaking of Nirakara Brahman and representing Brahman in Jnana marg. Bhagavan is also representing all Gods with form, as the name of Gita is not Krushna Gita and except last verse it says, Shri Bhagavan-uvacha and not Shri Krushna-uvacha.

But it was Krushna who was saying, so you can take bhagavan as Krushna (personal deity) or Krushna Tatva (Brahman). Gita covers all paths and so it has a special place in our shastras and Krushna is called Jagad Guru.

Srimad Bhagavad is another issue and may contain Tatva Jnana along with Bhakti rasa.
----

There are two analogies (nyaya) in shastras that I know

1. Truna-Jantu Nyaya (Caterpillar law)

Caterpillar is some 16 legs. So when it wants to move from one branch to another, it will branch fetch hold of another branch and grab it with it's front legs and only after fetching it, it leave older branch so shift to new branch.

This can be interpreted like, at the time of death, predominant desires decide our future birth and only when the decision is made new body is given to soul.


2. Keet-Bramar Nyaya.

keet is an insect which Bhamari catches and cages inside mud with holes to breath and feed and to bite. After being trapped, that insect (sorry I do not know english name) constantly thinks of bhamri that it will come and bite it. Finally it becomes bhamri.

So by thinking of brahman, one becomes brahman.

There is another analogy (vAda),

Snake-rope analogy (rajju-sarp vAda)

Entire advaita can be explained by rajju-sarp vada, specially some statements by Bhagavan Krushna.

Imagine that you are entering dark room and see a snake. so either you try to run away or you try to catch it. In the process you hit a light switch. The moment you switch on the light, you realize that it i just a rope. Snake was an illusion. Reality is rope.

Now, Snake is maya, and rope is Brahman upon which Snake (Maya) is super imposed.

Keeping this in mind, lets consider some statements (please do not ask the exact verse. I do not remember ;) ):

1. I am inside everything and everything is inside me
2. I am inside everything, but nothing i inside me.
3. Nothing is inside me and I am not inside anything.

Lets take statement no 1

1. I am inside everything (Maya) and everything is inside me

Wherever there is snake there is rope and wherever there is rope, there is snake. You do not see half rope-half snake either in darkness or in light. It's all or none theory. Either you see Snake (and all in illusion) or you see Rope (and rise above illusion).

2. I am inside everything, but nothing i inside me.

Wherever there was Snake, there was rope. Actually it was only rope. You cannot say, that snake is rope, but you can say that rope is disguised as snake. Rope is AdhAra. Snake needs rope for it's existence, but rope does not need snake for it's existence. So rope can independently exist without snake (Maya).

Skanda Bhagavan (Murugan, Kartikeyan, Kartik Swami) is shown both with and without wife (Maya), but he is not shown without veil, which represents Jnana. So you can live without maya as pure consciousness or Brahman, but you cannot live without Jnana. The Jnana that I am Brahman is needed to rise beyond Maya.

So Bhagavan is inside everything but nothing is inside bhagavan.

3. Nothing is inside me and I am not inside anything.

In statements 1 and 2, you either do not see Brahman from beginning as so you experience Maya. Later on you realize that only God (Rope) exists.

After you are established in the state of Jnana (Atma-Jnana), you will at no time experience snake. Imagine that when you enter the room, there is light already. Now will you see the snake? No.

So in Jnana Sthiti, i.e. Nirvikalp Samadhi, one is not aware of body or thi world, but just Brahman. You are Brahman.

In the 3rd statement,

Nothing is inside me and I am not inside anything,

There is no cause of illusion (darkness) and so there is no effect (Maya - Illusion). So there is no question of rope being inside snake. There is just one thing - Rope.

This is tatva Jnana. A Jnani has to be a bhakta too. Another name of Jnani is Brahmanishtha - Brahma-NishthA, the one who has firm Nishtha (shraddha or vishwas) that one is Brahman. This type of bhakti is ananya bhakti, where the seeker does not think of itself as seperate from Brahman. From the beginning, you do to think of your self as a body and God as a person, but it's just consciousness.

Now, This consciousness cannot be cut, broken or destroyed. Nothing can touch it.

Sri Ramakrishna gave an e.g.

A salt doll wanted to measure the depth of Ocean. The moment she stepped into ocean, she melted. Now who will tell you the depth of Ocean.

The statement that 'I am Brahman' represents 'Atma Sthiti'.
You should not repeat it like a parrot.

Whether you accept it or not, you are under the influence of maya.

So you will have to do a Atma-Khoj - Who Am I?

In the statement - I am That

That is Already Brahman

The Statement - I AM That, will only become true if I = THAT

I represents individuality. Ego keeps which I alive and wants to sustain individuality.

I can be = ego, mind, body, sukshma sharita, jiva.

In, I AM that, AM is the one that holds the key. It shows the process and also makes the statement as Non-Dual.

If you replace AM by 'AM NOT' then the whole meaning changes.

So I = THAT only when you know the Real 'I' or your true nature. But you are in duality. Just assuming does not help. So you have to ask 'Who AM I'. It is a khoj and after asking the questionin Nidhidhyasana, Thoughts and doubts ceases, they dissolve into source. You have to find the source of thoughts, breath, or mantra. That happens by awareness. By being Aware you are separated from Thoughts, not be being involving in thoughts. You will have to be de-focused by being aware. Anyways, that's all technical. But just a repetion 'Who Am I' will not help.

Now about Keet-Bramar Nyaya, you will have to do chintan and manan (thinking and comtemplation) and not repetition. It is basically Antar-Khoj.

Now coming to question, 'being a part of whole'

Imagine a vast endless milky ocean (divine ocean of energy). Entire Ocean is Maya.

Brahman is upon which this Maya rests and is inseperable.

The difference between Jiva and Ishwara is that while Ishwara can take any form anywhere at will and can also again merge into Brahman at will, Jiva is bound and influenced by Maya.

Both Ishwara and Jiva have 'Upadhis'. Ishwara takes adhara of 'Vidha Maya', the entire cosmos and is always aware of it's true nature i.e. Brahman. Remember that one rises above Maya by being aware or by knowing 'who am I' i.e. Being Brahman. Ishwara also knows the he is 'Brahman'. That is why he is called Maya-Pati, swami or controller of Maya. Be also knows that Maya is the shakti of Brahman and canot be seperated from it like fire and it's warmth.

Bhagavan in Gita gives Jnana to Arjun. Since Gita is essence of Upanishads, which skeps of Brahma-Jnana, so Bhagavan Krushna also gives Brahma-Jnana to Arjun. Only a realized soul can give Brahma-Jnani. Only Jnani can give Jnana-Updesha. So Bhagavan is also SELF Realized. If you have noticed, in Gita it's Just Bhagavan, making it universal. Instead of Being Bhagavan, the substratum of entire universe, he does not take credit. He humbly says I am taking everything from Upanishads, which are created by Rishis, or simply I am quoting from Shastras, eventhough everything origins or emerges and dies (udbhava and laya) in God. So even bhagavan Krushna considers Shastras as authentic and there is not even a trace of Ego, no 'I' in Bhagavan.

Coming back, Ishwara takes Adhara of Vidha Maya and Jiva takes Adhara of Panch-Mahabhuta. Ishwara is sarve-buddhiman and Jiva is alpa-buddhiman, bound by Maya, and having a feeling of seperateness of and so 'I'. Since Jiva and everything is inside Maya and is created from Maya, it also contains all tree Gunas – Satva, Rajas and Tamas. It is not seperate from Maya and so not seperate from Ishwara. But it is the feleing of seperateness due to avidya (ignorance) and Ahamkara (Ego) that we say that 'I am Part of the whole'

So to you question:


4. What exactly is this substance called Jiva? Is it AtmA? is it PrakRti? 
Shri BhagavAn uvAcha: Jiva is my second, higher (parA), eternal PrakRti 

Again, Consider an Ocean (inverted on top and form which two branches come out – just for visualization - Jiva and God)


So the thing that separates Ishwara and Jiva is knowledge that 'I Am Brahman' If you remove Vidha Maya from Ishwara and you remove Panch-Mahabhuta from Jiva, what is left is pure Brahman. That is why when in Jnana, one says, 'I am Brahman'. This does not mean that he can do same miracles that Krushna or other gods do, as you have correctly said, having siddhis entirely depends upon Grace of God and even devas.

Aum
IS

Sources:

Gita,
Ramakrishna Jivan Charitra,
Who AM I – Ramana Maharshi,
40 verses on Reality – Ramana Maharshi,
Updesha-saram by Sri Ramana Maharshi,
discources on Gita and Updesha-sar by Swami Tadrupanand.

Amrut
26 January 2013, 10:41 AM
|| om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~ ||


Several things about BG 7.5
(i) Is BhagvAn Shri KRshNa talking about jivas bound in saMsAr ONLY? In that case, what about liberated jivas, not in the material body?
There is no need to read something more into this verse than what the Lord is saying. He uses the word parA prakRti.

(ii) In the next verse, BG 7.6 (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-07-06.html) He shows that He is the source and cause of these TWO prakRtis.

So jiva is prakRti ?? Then what is all the meditation about "I am AtmA" "I am That" ?

!! What really happens is that the pure subtle marginal energy called jiva
(marginal because it has the tendency to get free from or be bound to saMsAr), as a seeker of liberation / pure transcendental service, becomes
either

A] aligned with [param]AtmA - the nirAkAr aspect (temporarily or permanently) - this is dhyAn yog and nirvikalpa samAdhi and the saMskRt word leen is perfect in this case.
In Hindi : ParamAtmA me leen honA.
Here the jiva is lost deep into paramAtmA's arms Who is cradling the jiva.
The jiva is a passive participant, but has awareness and intimate closeness to the Whole, and identifies with the Whole. This is what we call "being One with or merging with or realizing the [param]AtmA"

OR

B] engaged in pure devotional service TO [param]AtmA (temporarily or permanently). This is also alignment (paramAtmA me leen hona) in one sense, except the jiva is actively interacting with BhagvAn, the Supreme Person.

In both cases, the jiva prakRti exists - either dormant or active.

What tells us that the jiva prakRti is never extinguished? Several verses, but for now, BG 15.16,17,18 as seen shortly.

5. Before going over to BG 15.16,17,18, let us look at a few other points.

(i) AtmA does not act ,
(ii) PrakRti is the doer
(iii) but jiva should not think she is the doer - that would be ignorance

- BG 5.9 (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-05-08.html) BG 3.27 (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-03-27.html)

What? But isn't jiva prakRti? Yes, but a very very subtle, sUkshma, HIGHER prakRti of the Lord, albeit marginal. Not the entire sum total of unmanifest avyakta PrakRti (DurgA).

When we say prakRti acts, this means, the lower (aparA) prakRti which makes the instruments of action (eyes, nose...) - jnAnendrIya and karmendriya, are doing the work. Of course, they are monitored by the Devi called PrakRti who is infinite and a Shakti (energy) of the lord.

Here the material mind, when not in control of jiva, is but another indrIya (sense organ).

Therefore, a purified mind, completely dovetailed into yoga - be it bhakti yog , karma yog, jnAna yog or rAja/dhyAna yog, is the key to the secret door.


In the next posts :

6. What about upadRshtA, the witness ? Is it [param]AtmA or jiva?
7. Which words of Shri KRshNa give us a clue to either the jiva's identity, individuality or eternity or the lack of it?

praNAm _/\_

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

Namaste,

Like you continuing from above ;)

I think you must have got many answers from my first reply.


Several things about BG 7.5
(i) Is BhagvAn Shri KRshNa talking about jivas bound in saMsAr ONLY? In that case, what about liberated jivas, not in the material body?
There is no need to read something more into this verse than what the Lord is saying. He uses the word parA prakRti.

When the Jiva is liberated, it is is detached from physical body. A Jnani can also live without physical body in subtle bodies. Sri Ramana Maharshi says that that Mind of Jnani is Brahman itself. So after Videhi-Mukti, Jiva does not exist.

Two type of Prakriti

To make anything who will require 2 things – Material needed for creation and knowledge (to make or create that particular thing).

Ishwara knows what to make (knowledge) and also has tools and materials to make things (Maya). Ishwara does not need anything outside him.

I recall an example of spider.

Spider knows how to make 'Jala' (Web) and also has tools (saliva) to make it. Spider does not need anything extra from outside to create web i.e. Nor knowledge or material. Similarly, Ishwara is both material cause and efficient cause.



Sri Ramana Maharshi says there are 3 margas

Sri Ramana Maharshi, in Sri Ramana Gita says, SELF can be realized by 3 paths
1. MaargaNa: Vichar Marg, Self Enquiry, Jnana Marg
2. Majjan: To dive within (dictionary meaning). i.e. To merge, dissolve yourself in the source of Mantra. Bhakti Marg
3. PraaNa Rodh: To stop breath (dictionary meaning). To observe, control and slow down the breath. i.e. Breath Control. Yog (Raja Yog)

Source: Ramana Gita. Article: Three paths

So leen means, on looses into or merges into God, loosing it's own existence. One can even realize brahman by all 3 paths

Laya and Nasha are different. Laya means to be one with god or merging with God. But after spending some time in samadhi, mind again rises, as it is not dead, just sleeping, and with it rises the samsara. Again one enters into samadhi and mind sleeps, again it rises and so is duality. By repeatedly entering into samadhi, mind is emptied and destroyed. Now the mind does not rise again. There is no need to mediate. A person stays in nirvikalp samadhi for 21 days. After that the contact with body is permenetaly dropped. Sri Ramakrishna says only avatar can comes back again into body after 21 days. Most people do not return, but a select few, chosen by God returns from samadhi to do work of God. After that it's all God, not that person. He is Jivan Mukta. Such persons are very rare. My prostrations to Jivan Muktas who are Jnani Bhaktas, Atman of Krushna itself.

In Jnana marg, from beginning, you do not think of anything else than Brahman. That is why Shankaracharya has called Maya as 'Mithya'

It is illusion. Mithya means that one that does not exist but still you feel it.

Remember Snake and Rope analogy. Upon seeing snake, you either tried to run away or towards it. So till you are in Maya give-n-take continues. Only after you realize Brahman, you can say (in Atma Sthiti)) that 'I am Brahman' and that Maya is illusion. It is a statement of Realization said from the state of SELF Realization.

But in all cases, one does feel seperatenessness. The approach is different in all paths. In Dvaita after you have divine vision of God, all your wishes are up-rooted as you have reached your destination. You are entirely surrendered to God, though you have seperate existence. It will depends upon God to give you what is best for you. As Bhagavan in Gita says , at the time of death, if you take his name (Krushna or meditate on Brahman), then there is no second birth.



What? But isn't jiva prakRti? Yes, but a very very subtle, sUkshma, HIGHER prakRti of the Lord, albeit marginal. Not the entire sum total of unmanifest avyakta PrakRti (DurgA). 

When we say prakRti acts, this means, the lower (aparA) prakRti which makes the instruments of action (eyes, nose...) - jnAnendrIya and karmendriya, are doing the work. Of course, they are monitored by the Devi called PrakRti who is infinite and a Shakti (energy) of the lord.

Here the material mind, when not in control of jiva, is but another indrIya (sense organ). 

Jiva is within Prakruti. By being aware of what's going on as a witness, one lets the divine enrgy and prarabhdha flow without obstruction. There is no resistance or any attempt to do any work. Everything just happens. This actually happens i.e. Seeker experience this divine state at avery later stages, upon reaching certain maturity.

It is the identification with body and karma that one has to absorb the fruits.

Lets take an e.g.

If you have an account in swiss bank. You have too much bank balance. But you die before giving bank code to any one. In this case, what will happen to your bank balance? Can you enjoy it after diying or can someone take it. No?

In the same way, all karma and attachments are bound to Jiva. When Jiva becomes Shiva, it looses it's existence. Who will enjoy fruits of karma? No one. There is no identification.

Just like a dry leaf renounced by tree, the forutre entirely depends upon the wind. There is no resistence or interference from leaf. It does not care and simply accept it;s fate. It depends upon wind that it will land in temple premises or in Gutter or garbage can.


Therefore, a purified mind, completely dovetailed into yoga - be it bhakti yog , karma yog, jnAna yog or rAja/dhyAna yog, is the key to the secret door.

I agree.

More continued :)

Aum
IS

Amrut
26 January 2013, 11:10 AM
|| om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~ ||

NOTES:

* Shri KRshNa uses the word AtmA for Himself, and we understand that as ParamAtmA, the all-pervading omniscient omnipotent Lord.

* Translators, AchArya, have used the term jivAtmA or AtmA for the individual soul although this exact term is not in the Gita. That is because, while the jiva is parA prakRti (higher energy) of the Supreme Lord, it is the 'sva' or 'Atman' or the 'self' of the individual. The highest AtmA is called paramAtmA in that case, to distinguish.

* The word kshetrajn~a refers to both the jiva and paramAtmA because, the individual soul, jiva is ruling the kshetra (field, the body) -- [See Bh. Gita Chapter 13]. At the same time, the Ultimate driver is ParamAtmA, the driver of jiva, hence He is the [Master-]kshetraj~na.

* The abheda (oneness) messages in VedAnta shruti (the heard) have a very beautiful and noble intention of Atma-bhAv towards all. The jiva prakRti is the Lord's own prakRti, hence in its purest state it is said to be Brahman because it is perfectly aligned with Brahman. This is how jiva = Brahman.

* The intimate relationship between jiva and Brahman (which the Lord always knew but the jiva realized in her purest state owing to bhakti) makes Brahman insist "You and I are One, there is no distance between Us" "I am the voice of your heart" "When you speak it is Me speaking" -- This is the result of ananya bhakti only - marching in step with the Supreme Lord. The jiva may continue to serve Brahman-ParamAtmA-BhagavAn.

This will not happen if/as long as the jiva is engrossed in material pursuits. Bhagvan will never impose Himself on a jiva who wants to swim in the world independant of Him.

* When jiva lives in nirvikalpa samadhi thru nirAkAr sadhana (spiritual practice seeking the formless) it has no consciousness of its seperate existence, merely awareness of Brahman. This is how the akshar (imperishable) parA (higher) prakRti (nature & energy) of the Supreme Brahman attains Brahman. This cannot be acheived without ananya bhakti (one-pointed devotion) to the Supreme Bhagvan and His Grace.

* So, questions like "does the Self-realized become omniscient or have other siddhis" are not relevant here, because it is not the nature of 'ananya bhakti' to ask such questions. Bestowing a siddhi completely depends on the Will of the Supreme Lord, Who is the one bestowing. However, desires and expectations are an obstacle to liberation and we are told not to run after or get carried away by siddhis as ahaMkaar can manifest itself and be an obstacle.

When KRshNa ate a mouthful of the flat rice (poha) that Sudama brought with love, but was shy to offer, KRshNa was so overwhelmed with love that He showered wealth and prosperity on Sudama, but started giving him the trailokya (the three worlds) when RukmiNi who is Lakshmi Devi, stopped Him (just in time). Sudama had children, lived in extreme poverty, yet he did not utter a word to ask KRshNa for anything. Such is bhakti.


_/\_

|| om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~ ||

From my understanding, Atman / Paramatman are one and the same tatva. It is just name difference (nama bheda).

In Sri Ramakrishna's words, some people call pani as pani, some as jala, some as water. They are addressing the same thing.

So for explanation Atman can be

1. Body
2. Mind
3. Ego
4. Jiva

It depends upon the verse to be comtemplated.

No system contradict each other. They just emphasis on one part – Bhakti or Jnana or Yog and so they explain from that standpoint.

Kshetrajna refer to the knower of Kshetra. In this sense, you may be correct.

But kshetrajna may also mean the controller. In this case, Jiva does not control it but is bound by kshetra (objects of world by attachment – I and mine), while in Atma Sthiti one is not atatched to Objects and so is not influenced by them. This is why Krushna in Gita says that even if you kill thousands and lakhs of people, not even a trace of sin (papa) will spill on you. Even the blood will not spill on you, you will not bath in blood as you are Atman, detached from your body.

It is attachment that holds the key. We are all attached to our body, people, this wolrd and it's objects. We are mohAndha. Moha-andha like DhrutrAShTa. (what 'My' sons and Pandu Putras did)

So Gita starts with Moha-andha and ends with the realiation of Arjun, 'NaShTo moha smrutir labdhA ... kariShye vacanam tava'

Meaning, my moha – attachment (i and mine) is destroyed (nasha and not laya – subdued temperorily). After that the statement continues ...

kariShye Vacanam tava

Meaning, i will do whatever you say. Now there is no presumption or biasing. There is no choice. I am neutral.

In this verse, first words are naShTo moha and later words are smrutir labdhA

Order is also importance.

So, it can be said that, my moha is destroyed an I now know my true nature ... and wil do whatever you say in unbiased way with spirit of detachment.

Since we are attached with Body, i.e. Mind is attached with body and not God, and we cannot live without work, so first thing to do is to reduce or eleminate the attachment.

One cannot be simply be aware of Atman or be a witness to whatever he/she is doing. We are all involved.

So Gita says, do work, but surrender the fruits to God.

One can progress in spiritaulity by

1. Doing work in shakshi bhava
2. Doing work for God (ishwara prityarthe)
3. Doing work as an instrument of God.

In all paths, like in Gita, final destination is one-ness with God. Gita ends with the last verse, which says, that where there is a disciple like Arjun and a guru like Krushna, there is Sri (fruit or atma jnana rupi phala or Atma-dhana), and there is victory. One is definintely established in wintness.

By meaning all paths, means Karm, Bhakti, Jnana (and even Yog). Gita

I do not in anyway say that other interpretations are wrong.

Bhakta will not want moksha and will consider it as going to hell. They will always want to be at lotus feet of God and are ready to take infinite birth to serve him. Nothing is wrong or contradictory. But later on, it all depends upon God. Can you neglect any instruction of God which God gives? No. So we will just leave it to God to give that is best for us.

Since one is only thinking of God at all times, even at the time of Death, God will take you with him. Bhagavan Krushna in Gita says that one who remembers me (and only me, with no otrher desires or want) also reaches me or gets moksha (sorry I don ot remember exact verse). But all I know is that there is no second birth.

There is always a defininte purpose behind the teachings of Great acharyas like Shankaracharya, Nimbarkacharya, madhavacharya and other great acharyas. It's only that they focus on one thing more than other. Due to human natuer of comparing, they will say this path is superior, not to defame other paths, but to vage the monkey mind, ananlytical mind, skeptical mind, full of doubts, for our kalyan, they want us to be one-pointed. doesn't Bhagavan teach that one-pointed devotion is necessary. There is no need to go to another path. This path is sufficient. Respect all, but follow only one, as only one will suit you. So there are people in all paths. Each path has it's own followers.

Nice talking to you. Great Braining storming session.

my interpretations may be different, I never intend to de-fame an path and any faith.

Jai Shri Krushna


__/ \__

Aum

smaranam
28 January 2013, 12:46 AM
|| om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ||

A request: I hope this will not trigger essay-like pages and pages of counter-posts as that does not do good to a thread like this.


Kshetrajna refer to the knower of Kshetra. In this sense, you may be correct.

But kshetrajna may also mean the controller. In this case, Jiva does not control it but is bound by kshetra (objects of world by attachment – I and mine), while in Atma Sthiti one is not atatched to Objects and so is not influenced by them.

Have you ever considered the numerous individuals who are NOT bound to any body and are actively interacting with and serving BhagvAn, NOT in the body anymore, AND having transcended birth-death? And yet, these individuals are Brahman, but not BhagvAn. They have Atma-bhAv towards all, yet they are individuals.

A false assumption i see in your posts is individual existence (be it for selfish living or to serve Bhagvan) = ignorance ; individuality = birth-death cycle. This is not necessarily so.

Acknowledging transcendental individual existence in order to serve Bhagvan AFTER cessation of birth-death cycles is not ignorance (this is indeed seeing rope as a rope). Being trapped in the 3 modes of nature and allowing material nature to control you is ignorance (this is seeing the rope as a snake).

Even within bhAv samAdhi, a bhakta may play 'Bhagvan' or "wear a Bhagvan bhAv" This is just like a child wearing dad's shoes and walking around the house, but the jiva prakRti is there.

KRshNa does say "madbhAvam" , such and such a devotee reaches "My bhAv", "My dhAm/abode", "My prema" "My sAnidhya (association)" "Bliss similar to me" This is a bhAv. A beautiful bhAv.

"Everyone and everything is but me" is a beautiful bhAv OR a tattva by transitivity because it is all Brahman. Well, a lot happens within Brahman.


So Gita starts with Moha-andha and ends with the realization of Arjun, 'NaShTo moha smrutir labdhA ... kariShye vacanam tava'
Meaning, my moha – attachment (i and mine) is destroyed (nasha and not laya – subdued temperorily).

And yet Arjun remains an individual :) His form may change, but not the token.
Whether you believe it or not, Arjun, Uddhav and other parshads attend a BhAgvat KathA saptAh gathering on day one. Particularly during kirtan of the Bhagvat mahatmya.
In the winter months, BadrinAth dhAm and Temple are closed, the main priests also have to leave the place and go south until next spring. It snows there. Only the Indian army stays has some presence there for security.
At that time, Uddhav performs the nitya (regular) pUja of Shriman BadrinArAyaN. Kuber and GhanTA KarNa assist Him as kshetrapALs.

Nar-NArAyaN Rshis of BadrikAraNya (Lord NArAyaN's rshi avatAr and His brother pArshad) born to mUrti, came back in dwApar as Arjun and KRshNa respectively. It was NArAyaN's kind grace that He declared : "the name of Nar will always be uttered first, and then My name." Same with Radha.
Nar-Narayan. Radha-KRshNa. in that order.

Are Arjun and Uddhav, who are Brahman, ignorant for being individuals other than BhagavAn ? If Arjun is not another person, how can he give BhagvAn the leela pleasure of being His favorite GuDAkesha ?

Those who "lose individuality" actually simply are not conscious of the associated prakRti. And there is nothing wrong with that. It is great. The individual may not know, but the Supreme Lord knows.

BG 2.12 Never was there a time when You, Me and all these kings did not exist, and never will ... cease to exist.

He does not say "Brahman does not cease to exist" but "Me, you and the kings"
If Bhagvan expects Arjun to get liberated at His hands, then by your theory Arjun as an individual must cease to exist. However, devotees know that he comes here along with Bhagvan's associates, pArshads, in the next avatAr.

The great souls, pArshads may have a simultaneous existence in the VaikuNTha state-realm and Golok state-realm and have expansions in other states-realms.

FYI, your Raman Maharshi also acknowledges the VaikuNThas, he just says to his disciples "We are not interested in all that"

----

To the argument that "This is all happenning on the vyAvahAric plane"
Well then, the sweet Supreme Lord wanted to be many, so His devotees want to participate in the manyness. This does not mean birth-death cycles and ignorance! This material world is merely a fraction of the Lord's existence. The Lord sports in the spiritual with the devotees... and guess what - they are aaaaaalllllllll Brahman :)

This is why KRshNa says BG 18.67 DO NOT tell this secret to those who are not devoted, not austere, or those who do not have favorable feelings towards Me.


_/\_

Jai Shri KRshNa

Amrut
28 January 2013, 01:47 AM
|| om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ||



Have you ever considered the numerous individuals who are NOT bound to any body and are actively interacting with and serving BhagvAn, NOT in the body anymore, AND having transcended birth-death? And yet, these individuals are Brahman, but not BhagvAn. They have Atma-bhAv towards all, yet they are individuals.

A false assumption i see in your posts is individual existence (be it for selfish living or to serve Bhagvan) = ignorance ; individuality = birth-death cycle. This is not necessarily so.

Acknowledging transcendental individual existence in order to serve Bhagvan AFTER cessation of birth-death cycles is not ignorance (this is indeed seeing rope as a rope). Being trapped in the 3 modes of nature and allowing material nature to control you is ignorance (this is seeing the rope as a snake).

Even within bhAv samAdhi, a bhakta may play 'Bhagvan' or "wear a Bhagvan bhAv" This is just like a child wearing dad's shoes and walking around the house, but the jiva prakRti is there.

KRshNa does say "madbhAvam" , such and such a devotee reaches "My bhAv", "My dhAm/abode", "My prema" "My sAnidhya (association)" "Bliss similar to me" This is a bhAv. A beautiful bhAv.

"Everyone and everything is but me" is a beautiful bhAv OR a tattva by transitivity because it is all Brahman. Well, a lot happens within Brahman.



And yet Arjun remains an individual :) His form may change, but not the token.
Whether you believe it or not, Arjun, Uddhav and other parshads attend a BhAgvat KathA saptAh gathering on day one. Particularly during kirtan of the Bhagvat mahatmya.
In the winter months, BadrinAth dhAm and Temple are closed, the main priests also have to leave the place and go south until next spring. It snows there. Only the Indian army stays has some presence there for security.
At that time, Uddhav performs the nitya (regular) pUja of Shriman BadrinArAyaN. Kuber and GhanTA KarNa assist Him as kshetrapALs.

Nar-NArAyaN Rshis of BadrikAraNya (Lord NArAyaN's rshi avatAr and His brother pArshad) born to mUrti, came back in dwApar as Arjun and KRshNa respectively. It was NArAyaN's kind grace that He declared : "the name of Nar will always be uttered first, and then My name." Same with Radha.
Nar-Narayan. Radha-KRshNa. in that order.

Are Arjun and Uddhav, who are Brahman, ignorant for being individuals other than BhagavAn ? If Arjun is not another person, how can he give BhagvAn the leela pleasure of being His favorite GuDAkesha ?

Those who "lose individuality" actually simply are not conscious of the associated prakRti. And there is nothing wrong with that. It is great. The individual may not know, but the Supreme Lord knows.

BG 2.12 Never was there a time when You, Me and all these kings did not exist, and never will ... cease to exist.

He does not say "Brahman does not cease to exist" but "Me, you and the kings"
If Bhagvan expects Arjun to get liberated at His hands, then by your theory Arjun as an individual must cease to exist. However, devotees know that he comes here along with Bhagvan's associates, pArshads, in the next avatAr.

The great souls, pArshads may have a simultaneous existence in the VaikuNTha state-realm and Golok state-realm and have expansions in other states-realms.

FYI, your Raman Maharshi also acknowledges the VaikuNThas, he just says to his disciples "We are not interested in all that"

----

To the argument that "This is all happenning on the vyAvahAric plane"
Well then, the sweet Supreme Lord wanted to be many, so His devotees want to participate in the manyness. This does not mean birth-death cycles and ignorance! This material world is merely a fraction of the Lord's existence. The Lord sports in the spiritual with the devotees... and guess what - they are aaaaaalllllllll Brahman :)

This is why KRshNa says BG 18.67 DO NOT tell this secret to those who are not devoted, not austere, or those who do not have favorable feelings towards Me.

A request: I hope this will not trigger essay-like pages and pages of counter-posts as that does not do good to a thread like this.

_/\_

Jai Shri KRshNa

Namaste,

I very well understand you and your point of reference.

I will also try not to write a multi page essay and write it in right spirit :)

Ofcourse, Ramana Maharshi dos acknowledge vaikuntha. In Advaita, we never reject Maya or Vaikuntha (I do not say Vaikuntha is maya). It is that we neglect or in better words 'does not give emphasis' to it. - it is not negative. You may think of it as one-pointedness

again, in Sri Ramakrishna's words

Some people after attaining Brahman or Atman Jnana, retains false ego for the good of all.

An e.g.

You can use a thick rope to tie something. After the rope is burnt, it still retains it's shape (look-n-feel), but it is not the same rope, though it may look it a rope and you cannot use it to tie something.

Sukhdev, Shankaracharya kept 'Ego of Knowledge' to retain their physical body to do the divine work.

Similarly other great acharyas, disciples avatars and jnanis keep 'Ego of Bhakti, Knowledge or devotee for lok-kalyan. They are not bound by it, but prefer to live like laymen, so that people can benefit from them. It all happens by divine wish.

another e.g. is that of Paras-mani (philosopher's stone).

If you touch Paras-mani to a sharp and strong metal sword, then it will convert into Gold. Still it looks like a sword, but you cannot use it in battle field.

As I have earlier said, retaining physical body is not necessary after realization / having vision of God and that one can live in sukshma sharita and can do the work of God. God also gives them free will to do whatever they want. They can even take avatar or quit body. The effect of their work is that it does good to mankind and this samsara in general.

I completely agree with everything you have said :)

If you worship Krishna or Brahman, what happens is that 'bhakti' - a quality increases. Finally a bhakta, yogi, vedantin will renounce everything for God. Isn't it.

Because I have read Sri Ramakrishna a lot, who practiced many faith and paths, I have to accept that all faiths are true and authentic with no 'ifs and buts'. There is no doubt. Only the way of interpretation changes.

I also hope I have not offended you or any faith.

Isn't it a shortest answer and that it's not contradicting your approach and faith.

Give me my 'toffy' ;)

Aum

IS

btw, this must be one of the rare post in which I have not been logged out before i finish typing and hit 'submit reply' button

smaranam
28 January 2013, 02:29 AM
Namaste

Thanks, IndiaSpirituality. I shall also keep it short.


As I have earlier said, retaining physical body is not necessary after realization / having vision of God and that one can live in sukshma sharira and can do the work of God. God also gives them free will to do whatever they want. They can even take avatar or quit body. The effect of their work is that it does good to mankind and this samsara in general.

We are not talking about staying in sUkshma sharIra and doing some work for this material world. Yes, Raman Maharshi, Sai Baba of Shirdi, perhaps Aurobindo and also recent gurus like PrabhupAd are doing this.

I have a problem with "they can take avatAr" This is how the abheda shruti gets distorted. Other than the fact that the Guru is a representative of Bhagvan, a God-realized person does not [necessarily] imply avatAr. Not necessarily. All of BhagvAn's pArshads are not avatArs. They are jivas. Siddha jivas. The purpose of their existence may not be only to do kalyAN for the material world. There are more reasons. There are baddha jivas and siddha jivas, also nitya siddha jivas. We do not call them VishNu-tattva. That is the whole point. Jivas do not necessarily vanish or stop being jivas.


Finally a bhakta, yogi, vedantin will renounce everything for God. Isn't it.
I am not sure what you are implying. Renounce the world for God, yes. But not necessarily renounce transcendental individual existence, otherwise how will the bhakta serve God? To repeat, if Arjun, Shridama, Sudama, Gopis, GaruDa stopped existing, who will be NArAyaN's vahAn? Who will be KRshNa's sakha, sakhi? The devotees (who are Bhagvan's shakti but not Him or His avatar or expansion necessarily) are sensitive to what Bhagvan likes. At the same time they are Brahman, jnanis and yogis.


Because I have read Sri Ramakrishna a lot, who practiced many faith and paths, I have to accept that all faiths are true and authentic with no 'ifs and buts'. There is no doubt. Only the way of interpretation changes.

This is good, and I know this about you already. You make efforts to strike that balance in the posts. I do not see contradiction in the scriptures either. However, the problem is with distortion of the teachings that happen these days, and 'being God'
If the goal is total oneness, i understand that not acknowledging individual existence is wise. However, it is not necessarily a sign of ignorance otherwise.

This is not addressed to you, it is just how things are sometimes.

_/\_

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~

Amrut
28 January 2013, 03:12 AM
Namaste

We are not talking about staying in sUkshma sharIra and doing some work for this material world. Yes, Raman Maharshi, Sai Baba of Shirdi, perhaps Aurobindo and also recent gurus like PrabhupAd are doing this.

I have a problem with "they can take avatAr" This is how the abheda shruti gets distorted. Other than the fact that the Guru is a representative of Bhagvan, a God-realized person does not [necessarily] imply avatAr. Not necessarily. All of BhagvAn's pArshads are not avatArs. They are jivas. Siddha jivas. The purpose of their existence may not be only to do kalyAN for the material world. There are more reasons.

By meaning avatar means that a realized saint can again come to earth. I do not say for protection of dharma etc, as it is the job of God. What I mean is that they too can take avatar like Arjuna, and other devotees / disciples and accompany God in his lila or to simply enjoy his lila and bhakti rasa or may be for other reasons.

I do not mean they are Gods like KrushNa or RAma. We cannot compare God and it's avatar, but the word avatar means avataraNa - to come back or to descend.

Like it is said that some siddhas who are dhyana siddhas, but not one with brahman can choose their mother. They do have to take birth, but they may have a choice where to take birth.

If we do not agree with this point, then for good of both, lets leave it here.

Best is to start walking then to spend time discussing it. :)

Guru is a representation of God or Brahman and not Brahman - I agree.

A realized guru cannot be called Krushna. God is God.

Like I have said they realized saints or bhaktas are like burned rope. though their actions look like ajnani, they are not of same and they do not produce fruits like in case of baddha jiva.

Kartaa Bhava (doorship) is absent.


There are baddha jivas and siddha jivas, also nitya siddha jivas. We do not call them VishNu-tattva. That is the whole point. Jivas do not necessarily vanish or stop being jivas.

I agree



I am not sure what you are implying. Renounce the world for God, yes. But not necessarily renounce transcendental individual existence, otherwise how will the bhakta serve God? To repeat, if Arjun, Shridama, Sudama, Gopis, GaruDa stopped existing, who will be NArAyaN's vahAn? Who will be KRshNa's sakha, sakhi? The devotees (who are Bhagvan's shakti but not Him or His avatar or expansion necessarily) are sensitive to what Bhagvan likes. At the same time they are Brahman, jnanis and yogis.

Sorry for improper info. Please accept my apologies. it should be worldly desires.



This is good, and I know this about you already. You make efforts to strike that balance in the posts. I do not see contradiction in the scriptures either. However, the problem is with distortion of the teachings that happen these days, and 'being God'
If the goal is total oneness, i understand that not acknowledging individual existence is wise. However, it is not necessarily a sign of ignorance otherwise.

I agree :)

Sri Ramakrishna says that even if a bhakta has ego (of devotee - for separate existence), it is a ripe one and does not harm at all. - This statement is for advaitins like me ;)

Difference in opinion arises because of different approach.

Aum

Jai shri KrUshNa

Amrut
28 January 2013, 03:21 AM
Please continue your beautiful posts and other chapters. I will not hijack your thread :)

Chapters 16 and 17 are called parishistha. Chapter 18 is upsamhAra (upasavhAra)

Chapters 16 and 17 are barometers of our spiritual progress with daivi & Asuri shakti and different types of shraddha being explained by Bhagavan Krushna

chapter 18 summarizes all 17 chapters, comes to conclusion and sings glory of Arjuna and Arjuna and Bhagavan Krushna (in last verse).

smaranam
28 January 2013, 03:25 AM
Namaste

OK, I see what you mean by avatar etc.

Thanks for all your inputs on this thread.

_/\_

Jai Shri KRshNa ~

smaranam
28 January 2013, 03:29 AM
I will not hijack your thread :)

You are certainly not hijacking the thread, and as i said earlier, thanks for your insightful inputs.


Chapters 16 and 17 are called parishistha. Chapter 18 is upsamhAra (upasavhAra)
That is nice to know. They are barometers indeed.

Jai Shri KRshNa

smaranam
29 January 2013, 08:56 AM
|| om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~ ||


!! What really happens is that the liberated jiva becomes either

A] aligned with [param]AtmA - The jiva is a passive participant, but has awareness and intimate closeness to the Whole, and identifies with the Whole.
OR
B] engaged in pure devotional service TO [param]AtmA - the jiva is free from matter and actively interacting with and serving BhagvAn, the Supreme Person.

In both cases, the jiva prakRti exists - either dormant or active.
What tells us that the jiva prakRti is never extinguished?

BG 15.16 (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-15-15.html)– Bhagavan says there are 2 kinds of purusha (entities / beings / consciousnesses)
i) kshar – perishable
ii) akshar – imperishable

All VaishNav AchArya unanimously tell us these are
i) the moving and stationary living entities – 84 crore species - embodied jivas (whose bodies will perish), or those who are undergoing birth and death.
ii) the liberated free jivas who need not take birth in a material body. This group is called akshar – imperishable, i.e. eternal.
This shows jiva does not mean just embodied beings in the material world.

Other translations interpret the 2 types of purusha as
i) aparA prakRti, lower energy, matter which is perishable (kshar)
ii) parA prakRti, higher energy, spirit soul i.e. jiva prakRti – imperishable (akshar)

First point: With this second interpretation, can we call matter as a purush?
Purush = the one who lives in, resides in the ‘pur’ or city, which means the body here.
Who resides in the body? The jiva.
Also, Purush = a being. Can we call a stone a being? Are insentient things called beings?
This means the unanimous first translation makes all sense for 2 purushas – baddha jiva (bound) and siddha jiva (free)

Second Point: Did KRshNa not tell us about the 2 prakRtis a)matter b)spirit in BG 7.4 (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-07-04.html), BG7.5 (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-07-04.html)? He would not repeat this information again with no added value. So He must be talking about something else here. He will not call the same things apara and para prakrti once and kshar and akshar purush a second time.

Third point: In either case, the eternal imperishable (akshar) points to the jiva! Thus demonstrating the eternal nature of jiva prakRti.


BG 15.17 (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-15-16.html)– KRshNa says there is a third purusha. He is the Uttam Purusha. The Supreme Purusha – the paramAtmA who is different, transcends, governs and is the source of the first 2 kinds – i.e. bound and free jivas.

He holds all the power – infinite shakti, whereas jiva, whether bound or free, is small shakti.

BG 15.18 (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-15-17.html)says this Uttam Purusha is rightly called Purushottam by the world and by the Vedas. So the Supreme Lord gives a backing of the original scripture – Veda.

If jiva were an illusion, then it would not be akshar in the first place, being akshar, KRshNa would not use 2 (and more) verses to distinguish it from the Purushottam.

The jiva not bound to matter, without impure ahaMkAr (ego), is this Purushottam's tiny spiritual energy, and hence "I am Brahman" holds true. Because Purushottam is Brahman, His spiritual energy is Brahman. Sometimes this energy gets lost in Brahman and cannot tell itself apart. sarvam khalvidam brahman.

_/\_

Om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~

smaranam
01 February 2013, 05:48 AM
|| om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~ ||



6. What about upadRshtA, the witness ? Is it [param]AtmA or jiva?

After pointing to the individual consciousness, the jiva, as akin to being under the influence of material guNas in BG13.22 (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-13-16.html),
In BG 13.23 (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-13-17.html)BhagavAn Shri KRshNa says there is a Witness too, in addition to the jiva - demostrated by the words iti cha api and purusha parah: (transcendental to the purush in the previous verse)
Not that the jiva turns into/turns out to be, the Supreme in all respects, on liberation/knowledge.
What are His attributes?
1. UpadRshTA - witness
2. anumantA - permitter, giving the allowance, sentience (for even a blade of grass to move)
3. bhartA - maintainer, companion, owner...
4. bhoktA - enjoyer, experiencer
5. maheshwara - the Supreme Controller

For all properties 1 to 5 to co-exist in this entity, it has to be the Supreme Being, paramAtmA who is omniscient, omnipotent, all-pervading.
What we call universal consciousness.

This is very interesting, because let us say an embodied jiva has turned her back to material nature. She can very well play the role of witness, and to some extent, of enjoyer or experiencer (bhoktA), but not all the roles on the list above.

The jiva turned inwards, owing to bhakti, association with paramAtmA-BhagavAn, can get a clear experience of the silent inner witness. Witnesser of thoughts that come and go and all that happens - surprises and all.
Also gets the experience of the one acknowledging taste, sight, thought, sound etc. as "I".

What is this phenomenon all about? Is it the individual consciousness observing the mind? Since KRshNa says in many places (Chap 3,5,13,...) that even the individual consciousness is really not the kartA (actor), simply the lower prakRti acts thru' the instruments (jnAnendrIya and karmendrIya), this makes sense.

The individual soul, jiva, is a tiny fraction of the Supreme Lord's higher energy (prakRti). This is how the jiva is a 'aMsha' of Him (BG 15.7 - mamaiva aMsha jiva loke jiva-bhUta sanAtana). Jiva is not only eternal like paramAtmA, it shares the nature of paramAtmA in quality, but of course not all the power.

So, given this, jiva is given a minute independence as well as it inherits some traits such as being the indwelling witness and experiencer of the kshetra (body).
The [param]AtmA in that case is the Master Witness and the Master Experiencer and Ultimate, real enjoyer (bhoktA).

The jiva cannot be truly called anumantA (permitter, granter, sanctioner of activity). Because nothing can happen without the [param]AtmA. Not a blade of grass can move - as explained in BG 7.6 (http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-07-06.html),7 - pearls on a thread)
Same argument holds for bhartA.

The jivAtmA cannot be the maheshwara - omniscient omnipotent and all-pervading because she clearly is not. If she were, she would know what each entity is doing and what is happening throughout the galaxy and universe without any external means i.e. the omniscience would descend into the intellect. Perhaps a fraction of this may happen - but only if the accompanying paramAtmA wills it, not otherwise.

Even if maheshwara is simply taken to be the Ultimate Controller, that is clearly the [param]AtmA, and not the jiv[AtmA].

It is clear that jiva inherits the witnessing and experiencing qualities of paramAtmA.

Regarding this, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami says in purport to Chaitanya CharitrAmRt Madhya Lila 22.9, that sometimes jiva-prakRti imitates paramAtmA to a degree:


The personal expansions are known as viṣṇu (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/v/visnu)-tattva (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/t/tattva), and the separated expansions are known as jīva (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/j/jiva)-tattva (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/t/tattva). Although the jīvas (living entities) are part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, they are still counted among His multipotencies. This is fully described by Lord Kṛṣṇa (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/k/krsna) in the Bhagavad-gītā (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/g/gita) (7.5 (http://vedabase.net/bg/7/5/en)):

apareyam itas tv anyāḿ (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/a/anyam) prakṛtiḿ (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/p/prakrtim) viddhi (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/v/viddhi) me parām (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/p/param)
jīva (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/j/jiva)-bhūtāḿ (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/b/bhutam) mahā (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/m/maha)-bāho (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/b/baho) yayedaḿ dhāryate (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/d/dharyate) jagat (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/j/jagat)
"Besides this inferior nature, O mighty-armed Arjuna (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/a/arjuna), there is another, superior energy of Mine, which comprises the living entities who are exploiting the resources of this material, inferior nature."

Although the living entities are Kṛṣṇa (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/k/krsna)'s parts and parcels, they are prakṛti (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/p/prakrti), not puruṣa (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/p/purusa). Sometimes prakṛti (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/p/prakrti) (a living entity) attempts to imitate the activities of the puruṣa (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/p/purusa).


Apart from this, jiva inherits the qualities of being eternal, pure, full of love, and blissful - qualitatively.
So, one caught in experiences of happiness and distress of this world is forgetting that they are in fact a very beautiful, eternal part of the Supreme Brahman-ParamAtmA-BhagavAn and very loving and blissful in nature.:)

_/\_
om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~

jopmala
27 March 2013, 11:19 AM
Namaste smaranamji

I would like to suggest some points in support of the jiva being part of sri Krishna which is very much clear from verse 7 of 15th chapter. Those who oppose this, has the opinion that Brahman can not be divided into parts etc etc. Here in chapter 15 sri bhagavan says that there are two kinds of purushas – kshara ( perishable i.e. all beings, the jiva enmeshed by prakriti) and akshara (imperishable i.e. immutable attribute less, reality of brahman). All beings are perishable ( ksharah sarbani bhutani) and changeless one is said to be imperishable (kutastho’kshara uchyate).-verse 16 of 15th chap. There is the supreme person distinct from these called the supreme self ( uttam purusha). It is the he who as the imperishable Lord, pervading the three worlds sustains all – 17 of 15th . sri bhagavan says “ since I am beyond the perishable and superior to the imperishable , I am known in the Vedas and in this world as the supreme person ( Purushottama)” -18 of 15th. Knowing him as such, there is nothing else left to be known. Now link these verses with verses 4,5,6,7 of chap 7th, 4 and 20 of 8th

The thing is very clear. Part of bhagavan does not mean that he has been cut into pieces. He is one and only but this jagat comes from him as his apara prakriti and atma also comes from him as his para prakriti. It is he who enters the earth and sustain all beings with his vital energy ( 13 of 15th ). He is distinct from these two prakrities or purushas so he is purushottam. Just think, the rays which come out of the sun can not claim themselves to be the sun itself though they are part of their source, the sun. one has to understand that the rays are coming out of the sun not by cutting sun into pieces. These rays are bearing some sort of similarities with the sun. verse 30 of chap XIII says “ when sadhakas sees the separate existence of all beings centered in one and emanating from that one alone, he becomes one with the Brahman”. Those who claim jiva is Brahman, they ignore this purushottam tattva. There is no tattva which excels him ( 7 of 7th ) but here he says “ I excel the imperishable” ( 18 of 15th ) . Generally, kutastha akshar implies nirgun nirvishes Brahman tattva as we find in Gita verses 3 and 20 of chap 8th, 37 of chap 11th and 3 of chap 12th but here in verse 18 of 15th he excels akshara Brahman and become purushottam. As a purushottam , he is both with and without attributes ; creator, preserver and destroyer, partaker of rites and sacrifices, goal, sustainer , master, wirness , abode refuse and friend of all beings .

The Gita has brought about a synthesis of jnan, bhakti and karma by means of this doctrine of purushottam which is highly secret. This can not be achieved by the doctrine of Brahman. For the Brahman of the protagonists of the maya is nirgun nirakar nirvhishes. The purusha of the samkhya school is also like that. So according to the both the schools it is only by renouncing action that deliverance can be attained. Further there is no room for bhakti in this deliverance. The purushottam of Gita however, is calm undisturbed attribute less infinite, abiding as a soul in all beings ; at the same time , he promotes and sustains attributes, is inspirer of prakriti or karma, partaker of rites and sacrifices , Lord of lords. Hence the consciousness of beings, at one with all beings amounts to the consciousness of the supreme person. Now we have to understand the verse 27 of chap XIV where sri bhagavan says “ For I am the abode of Brahman, the immortal and immutable , of eternal dharma and absolute bliss”.

Therefore Brahman is one aspect that is undefinable absolute attribute less whereas the supreme person or purushottam is with or without attributes creator preserver destroyer partaker of sacrifices and worship, lord of the universe. Ignoring purushottam tattva , some people tries to explain nirgun nirvishesh nirakar Brahman to be higher than sagun savishesh sakar bhagavan. These people forget the question asked to sri bhagavan by Arjuna in verse 1 of chap 12 as to who are superior devotees of the two those ever steadfast devotees who worship you( sagun sakar savishesh) and those who worship the imperishable and unmanifested Brahman . The answer given in verse 5 of chap 12 where it says “ who set their thoughts on the unmanifested have to face a harder task for the goal of the unmanifested is difficult to attain by the embodied soul” .The question is not which is higher(fourth state) or which is lower( third state). The question is which aspect is easier to attain for the jives. The reply is in verse 5 . Therefore accepting the Gita as one of the pillars of their philosophy and disrespecting Gita by rejecting its teachings is nothing but hypocrisy. In one hand they say nirgun nirakar and nirvishesh and sagun sakar savishesh are two aspect of same coin, the Brahman but on the other hand their philosophy says nirgun nirakar is at highest that is the fourth state and sagun sakar is the third state of realization which establishes higher and lower states. Is this acceptable to Gita ?According to Gita there is no higher or lower states. He is purushottam distinct from Brahman and maya. In verse 16 of chap 8th sri bhagavan says “ from the domain of Brahman to this world all worlds are subject to cycles of birth but having attained me there is no rebirth”. Verse 26 of 14th says “ He who worships me with unfaltering love transcends these gunas and becomes fit to attain oneness with the Brahman” and verse 54 of 18th says “ Being one with Brahman, with tranquility in mind neither grieving nor craving ,regarding all beings alike he attains supreme devotion unto me” and then verse 55 of 18th says “ Through such devotion he comes to know me, who and how much I am and in all my reality and principles of my being and having known me in truth he forthwith enters into me” There are atma-tattva, Brahman-tattva and purushottam-tattva.

smaranam
31 May 2013, 11:25 AM
praNAm jopmala

Thanks. Your post is quite informative, although i have something different to say now, about kshetrajna and jiva. There is only one kshetrajna. Actually I have touched kshar, akshar purush BG 15.6, uttam purush, jiva prakrti, kshetradnya etc. - please see my last two posts if not the whole thread.

However, what I like is that you put it in one consice post and corelate, while I spread things in several posts. So the message may not be clear unless one reads the whole thread.

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya
---------------------

praNAm readers,

Perhaps what I am about to say now might shock some of you:

I want to ammend/correct my message on this thread.

Before creating this thread, I had made a very clear conclusion about the Gita, our shastra, hand in hand with experience as a bhakta and jignyasu. That conclusion (back in Dec 2012) is NOT reflected in my posts on this thread. So it is my duty to make that ammendment.

REASON: The conclusion (as of Dec 2012) changed to align with the VaishNav thought once again because... although the jig-saw puzzle was put together by KRshNa's grace, one piece would not fit:

Shastra points to one AtmA and one kshetradnya.
If AtmA is the upadRshTA, witness, I have been there. As sAkshi. With KRshNa's patient help I have concluded that sAkshi is me is AtmA. As a bhakta I did not like just being the sAkshi (or dRshTA) because there is no devotion in being a sAkshi AtmA. However, besides this, there was a BIG shAstric doubt:

If I can indeed be that sAkshi AtmA, then that must make me omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, and (without exploding the brain/intellect), the omniscience at least should decend into the intellect.

Clearly, I remain an ordinary insignificant being with no such powers (which I do not care about - only about KRshNa's Lotus Feet) - unless the Lord supplies information like He does to siddhas.
This must mean that the jiva immitates the all-pervading paramAtmA in case of the witnessing, at least for a short time - and so, just being a sAkshi, dRshTA or witness is not enough to be labeled AtmA. Clearly the buddhi is doing the witnessing here.

So, the shAstric conclusion of one AtmA and one kshetradnya was contradicted, although this is what I read and get from Bh Gita and Bhagvatam too, that only the PurNa Purushottam BhagavAn and His potency/potencies exist. Other beings are their expansion like spider spinning a web.

This is the message that Bhagavad Gita (KathA by KRshNa) and Shrimad BhAgvatam (KathA OF and By KRshNa) is sending to me. This conclusion does not change a thing about bhakti (devotion) and any bhakta's relationship with the Supreme Lord, Govind. It was always the way it was. In fact my personal experience would not fit the VaishNav msg hand-in-glove, and I know exactly why. KRshNa will willingly tell, but I would not listen - owing to this one point (omniscience).

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

smaranam
31 May 2013, 12:18 PM
|| om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ||

Shri BhagvAn uvAcha ... revisited.

The following, particularly about the two kshetrajnas needs modification.

NOTES:

* The word kshetrajn~a refers to both the jiva and paramAtmA because, the individual soul, jiva is ruling the kshetra (field, the body) -- [See Bh. Gita Chapter 13]. At the same time, the Ultimate driver is ParamAtmA, the driver of jiva, hence He is the [Master-]kshetraj~na.

This is not the message I am getting from Gita and BhAgvat.

BG 13.2 The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: This body, O son of Kuntī (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/k/kunti), is called the field, and one who knows this body is called the knower of the field.

BG 13.3 (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/13/3/en): O scion of Bharata (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/b/bharata), you should understand that I am also the knower in all bodies, and to understand this body and its knower is called knowledge. That is My opinion.

Nowhere does the Lord say there is another kshetradnya. He just says kshetra is the body, and I am its knower. The "also" (api cha) is in context means: "Amongst other things that I am, I am also the knower in the body."
KRshNa goes on further to explain the kshetra (field) in detail, and lists what one should do or how to be to gain knowledge to get out of bondage.

This is backed up by JaDa BhArat, who is teaching King RAhugaNa about self realization in BhAgvat Canto 5:

SB 5.11.12
kṣetrajña (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/k/ksetrajna) etā (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/e/eta) manaso vibhūtīr
jīvasya (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/j/jivasya) māyā (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/m/maya)-racitasya (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/r/racitasya) nityāḥ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/n/nityah)
āvirhitāḥ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/a/avirhitah) kvāpi (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/k/kvapi) tirohitāś ca (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/c/ca)
śuddho vicaṣṭe (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/v/vicaste) hy aviśuddha (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/a/avisuddha)-kartuḥ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/k/kartuh)

The kshetrajna witnesses many ideas and activities created in the mind by the external energy. They have been existing from time immemorial. Sometimes they are manifest in the wakening state and in the dream state, but during deep sleep [unconsciousness] or trance, they disappear. A person who is liberated in this life [jīvan (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/j/jivan)-mukta (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/m/mukta)] can see all these things vividly.

SB 5.11.13-14
kṣetrajña (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/k/ksetrajna) ātmā (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/a/atma) puruṣaḥ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/p/purusah) purāṇaḥ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/p/puranah)
sākṣāt (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/s/saksat) svayaḿ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/s/svayam) jyotir (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/j/jyotir) ajaḥ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/a/ajah) pareśaḥ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/p/paresah)
nārāyaṇo bhagavān (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/b/bhagavan) vāsudevaḥ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/v/vasudevah)
sva (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/s/sva)-māyayātmany avadhīyamānaḥ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/a/avadhiyamanah)
yathānilaḥ sthāvara (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/s/sthavara)-jańgamānām (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/j/jangamanam)
ātma (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/a/atma)-svarūpeṇa (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/s/svarupena) niviṣṭa (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/n/nivista) īśet (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/i/iset)
evaḿ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/e/evam) paro bhagavān (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/b/bhagavan) vāsudevaḥ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/v/vasudevah)
kṣetrajña (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/k/ksetrajna) ātmedam anupraviṣṭaḥ (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/a/anupravistah)

The kshetrajna is the all-pervading cause of creation. He is full in Himself and is not dependent on others. He is perceived by hearing and direct perception. He is self-effulgent and does not experience birth, death, old age or disease. He is the controller of all the demigods, beginning with Lord Brahmā (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/b/brahma). He is called Nārāyaṇa (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/n/narayana), and He is the shelter of living entities after the annihilation of this material world. He is full of all opulences, and He is the resting place of everything material. He is therefore known as Vāsudeva (http://srimadbhagavatam.com/v/vasudeva), the Supreme Personality of Godhead. By His own potency, He is present within the hearts of all living entities, just as the air or vital force is within the bodies of all beings, moving and nonmoving. In this way He controls the body. In His partial feature, the Supreme Personality of Godhead enters all bodies and controls them.

PrabhupAd translates SB 5.11.12 as the individual soul kshetrajna, but the saMskRt does not say any such thing. Just that "the kshetrajna" witnesses the activities of the mind.
The next two verses describe Who exactly this kshetrajna is - VAsudev.

There are many verses in the BhAgvatam which say that "The Supreme Lord NArAyaNa entered all creation and experienced the guNas" "The Supreme "became" all beings and all lokas"

and the chatushloki BhAgvat spoken by the Lord Himself - "In the beginning there was only Me. So all that you see is but Me by either anvaya or vyatirek (directly or indirectly)" - which does not contradict any of the siddhantas.


In case of both BG 7.5,6 (jiva is My para prakRti) and BG 15.7 (jivas in this world are my aMsha - tiny fractions), KRshNa is talking about embodied beings (or those undergoing birth-death, with vasanas, karma, sankalpa all present).

Practically speaking, the jivaness does not go away. Individuality does not just go away. It is hard. That bhaktas want to maintain pure individual state for the sake of devotion is a different story. It takes two to love. The ones that merge or work towards losing individuality also may have some thin layer of individual characteristics left over.

Above and beyond all this is the beautiful fact that both Bhagvad Gita and BhAgavt are devotional texts, full of bhakti - to the brim.

The message of Bh. Gita and BhAgvat purAN: chatuhshloki bhAgvat. Everything is Me alone. HOWEVER, ananya ahaituki nirapeksha nishkAm bhakti (one-pointed, causeless, selfless, expectationless pure devotion) towards the Supreme Lord NArAyaNa, is THE WAY TO GO


So what difference does it make ?
as long as it is only Govind and Shri
and as long as
Govindam Adi Purusham Tam aham bhajAmi
:)

_/\_

smaranam
01 June 2013, 01:01 AM
om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

Summary from yesterday: Gita and BhAgvat tell me there is only ONE kshetrajna AtmA - Who happens to be THE one and only purAN purush, uttam purush, Adi kavi, anadi adi saccidananda NArAyaNa VAsudeva.

So, back to the jiva shakti. TaTastha** shakti (marginal potency) of the Supreme Lord, Supreme Absolute Truth.

KRshNa says that which makes the creatures (bhUta) sentient is His parA prakRti (BG 7.4,5,6) - or higher energy. Higher compared to gross prakRti which includes mind, intellect and false-ego (ahaMkAr).

AhaMkAr (ego) is not included in parA prakRti that makes jiva. So, we cannot say that "jiva is an illusory state owing to ahaMkAr" or can we?

What exactly is this potency? It is a "tendency." or a kind of "bhAv" although not the Supreme Lord's original svabhAv (intrinsic nature). It is His actor's nature?? (Natkhat natvar that He is.) It is weaker than DurgA (external potency, sat) and weaker than Radha (internal potency, hlAdini) but has qualities of both. An in-between potency which tends to get deluded by the material modes, as well as has the ability to stay KRshNa-conscious and beyond the modes if surrendered and devoted.

WHO is it that "tends to be marginal" here? Is it not the AtmA who has adopted this tiny marginal potency?

When the AtmA stays fully Himself, He has the entire set of His potencies in full, untouched by anything material. But it is apparently His "nature" to "become" the world. Hence, the very same AtmA, the very same saccidAnanda Govinda, adopts this tiny tendency ?

So what if He does? Unless He did so, how could He love Himself, play with, serve, cry in seperation of, dote over, feed, pamper, dress, glorify Himself, and gradually reach the prema-parAkAshThA (height of divine love) in varying degrees - bhAv rati ulhAs prema rAga mAna ati ruDha bhAv mahabhav , in aishwarya (reverential mood with knowledge of Lord's oppulence and magnanimosity) , madhurya (devoid of sense of Lord's oppulent nature), in various relations (rasa) (parental, friendship, servitude, conjugal, neutral) and sub-emotions (veer ras - adventurous rivalry, kAruNya - compassion, krodh - animosity and enmity or anger - like KaMsa ... and numerous permutations combinations of these)

How could He taste the primary secondary tertiary rasa (moods) and variety of bhAvas (not just devotional), through His creation?

OK you may attack this all you want :)

_/\_
Govindam Adi Purusham Tam aham bhajAmi

smaranam
05 June 2013, 09:06 AM
So, back to the jiva shakti. TaTastha** shakti (marginal potency) of the Supreme Lord, Supreme Absolute Truth.

-------
**taTastha = on the taTa . taTa = shore, border, edge, fence. taTashtha = as if sitting on the shore between the material land and spiritual ocean, so as to tend to go in either direction.

[note added in the end]

_/\_

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya