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Spirit Seeker
28 January 2013, 05:17 PM
Hi Namaste All.

As someone who comes from a Spiritualist Background its difficult for me to understand the Advaitian viewpoint as it relates to the spiritual worlds. From my impression on the mainstream Advaita, it treats "Everything" as "God".. As "all is Brahma."

I can agree that all Brahman is All, but not all is Brahman.

For instance, in my spiritualist traditions which is mainly derived from indegiouness practices stemming from the Carribean to Brazil, our gods are not seen as "imaginary" constructs of a subjective mind. To their followers, the gods are as real and interactive towards us, as your neighbor next door, or that grocer from down the block. These Gods communicate directly via Divination, or Possession.(Altered State of consciousness) And they can share many amazing and profound things, assisting us with our lives directly.

Many people who practice these traditions happens to be spiritualist mediums. So they are gifted with spiritual sight(clairvoyance, 3rd eye, divine eye etc.). Many of these spiritualist who are gifted with the Spiritual Sight, Change Many Peoples lives, even skeptical people, when they communicate with a persons loved who who's passed, or who can spot out and verify someones spiritual or assisting spirit guides hanging around that individual.They interact and commune directly with the deceased, ancestors, Nature Spirits, Elementals etc.

I've never been to India, but India being a 'mystical' spiritual land as well I would presume that they have similiar practices to these in certain areas. Having experienced and directly validated my metaphycisal experiences conerning the objectivity of Metaphysical Entitys, and Gods etc. It has changed my life profoundly, and has lead me to Seek God, as where My Life was before God, I was highly skeptical materialist Agnostic.

Here is my Belief. Since Brahman pervades all, At this level, and at THEIR personal, individual consciousness level, spirits exist as we do, as uniquely separate individiuals, having, as I said, personal consciousnesses.

However, eventually, as you follow the layers of the bodies upwards, you get to a place where everything is one being... something so huge, so vast, it's incomprehensable. At that level, everything that exists, here, there, everywhere, every choice ever made that created a new reality, every entity on every part of astral, every world here or there, every spirit, every soul, is the same entity.

Take a leaf off of any tree... The leaf is a leaf. It looks and IS different from every other leaf. At the same time... when you really look at the structure of the leaf, it is an EXACT MIRROR IMAGE of the way the treee grows. The branches in the leaf are like the branches in the tree. A perfect copy.

THAT is what we are ALL like, humans and spirits alike... at one level, we're all leaves, separate and completely ourselves... but even down here, at our core, we're copies of the All, which is everything that is, everything that could be, and everything that isn't... and if you follow our stems far enough upwards, you find the tree itself.

Now the reason I ask for the Advaitan Viewpoint, is for clarifaction rather than Misunderstanding. For Example, If I communicate or Venerate an Ancestor Spirit, as per my tradition, I really trust it is the Spirit/Jeeva of that particular individual. Not some Formless Imaginary Construct. Even the energy signature of the particular spirit/entity/jeeva is peculiar and unique.

According to the Advaitan viewpoint, The perceived jeeva is Brahman taking the form of an ancestor, as "Brahman is formless, and Brahman is All."

I hope this doesnt turn into a heated debate, as I dont want to compare spirituality's realizing that this is a Hindu forum, and the content will mainly be hindu, but im just inquiring as I dont want to misunderstand anything. I've gotten into a lot of debates with New Agers and Neo-Mystics, about whether these beings exist Subjectively or Objectively. But I have my answer already.

So I just ask ,Is this really how it's seen through the Advaitan viewpoint or am I missing anything?

Blessings, and Thank you.

devotee
01 February 2013, 01:14 AM
Namaste Spirit Seeker,

Advaita is a difficult subject to understand and this has to be kept in mind before trying to give one's own explanation on "What Advaita should be". I will give you some examples :

a) You take a piece of diamond and a piece of iron. Are they two or same ? Diamond is diamond and iron is iron. So, at this level, these are certainly two things. Now let's go at a level where you can't find a difference between a particle and a wave ... i.e. let's go at lowest of sub-atomic level ... even below quarks and anti-quarks, if possible. It has been proved that matter can be converted into energy. As all types of energies are basically the same, we can safely conclude that at the lowest level, all matter whether Iron or diamond must have the same essence from which it should be made up of. Otherwise too, if go reverse i.e. converting energy into matter, theoretically it is possible to create any matter from the same energy. Even if stop at energy and say that it is the substratum of everything around us ... we end up seeing everything in this world as essentially the same energy.

So, though the reality is that everything is Consciousness ... in absence of any valid instrument to prove it, we agree to the assertion that "Everything is nothing but energy" and proceed with this. So, what do we get ?

"All Matter and energy are essentially same thing."

However, it doesn't mean that the distinction has disappeared at the gross level. Diamond, Iron and Energy have their own characteristics at the gross level.

b) For understanding Advaita, the above example is barely sufficient due to its severe limitations as we are unable to deal with Consciousness directly. Advaita says that Everything is Consciousness. Consciousness is Brahman. Now, that said, it is not that Consciousness has partly converted into humans, partly into stones, partly into trees etc. No, the conversion has been Only apparently. What does it mean ?

For understanding this let's first have a look on this invocation verse of IsAvAsya Upanishad :

"Om purnam-adah purnam-idam purnaat purnam-udacyate. purnasya purnam-aadaaya, purnam-eva-avashishyate "

===> That is infinite, this is infinite; From That infinite this infinite comes. From That infinite, (when) this infinite is taken out; balance remains as infinite.

"That" in the above verse is used for Brahman and "This" is used for this universe. So, the verse says that Brahman is limitless and from it is born this universe which again is limitless. After this Infinite Universe comes out from the Infinite Brahman, the Infinite Brahman remains.

So, everything is Brahman and "Nothing" has really converted into anything else i.e. there was Brahman to begin with and Brahman alone remains at the end. How is it possible ? Are we able to understand what it says ? It is difficult. Why ? We are going to deal with how Consciousness behaves and we have hardly any idea of how consciousness acts. The verse says something which seems impossibility but this is only due of our lack of knowledge on how Consciousness behaves.

c) The Dream analogy :

By analysing our dreams, we can understand the above verse though it won't by what actually happens. However, our purpose will be served by analysing the Dream-phenomenon.

In the phenomenon of dreaming :

a) There is only One Consciousness i.e. of the Dreamer. There is no other consciousness taking part in the dreaming process.

b) While dreaming many characters are created and a story line too is created which runs the dream. The various characters acting in the dream i.e. all the persons whether friends or foes, girls or boys, men or women, stones or pearls, tress or birds ... everything is creation of Dreamer's consciousness. There is no other material which changes into the characters of the dream and there is no other cause, so we can safely say that Dreamer is the material and efficient cause of the whole dream world.

Please note here that every character in the dream acts on his/her/its own. The dreamer has its separate entity in the dream which may not be exactly as he really is and he or even the dreamer don't know how a dream character is going to behave the next moment (that shows that the actions of the dream characters are not pre-decided by the dreamer). There may be some characters created in the dream which could not be friends of the dreamer (so, creation can act against its own creator apparently) and yet those characters are created and act on their own. Anything cannot act on its own independently unless it has a consciousness of its own. Therefore, every character in the dream must have its own Consciousness otherwise their actions should have been known to the dreamer in advance who is the Consciousness behind the whole set of characters in the dream. But we all know that the dreamer doesn't how one dream character is going to do the next moment in the dream.

Now, let's analyse the dream phenomenon :
**********
i) There can be no doubt that there is Actually only one Consciousness i.e. that of the Dreamer. There is no consciousness which is added to or subtracted from teh Dreamer's Consciousness i.e. before dream, during the dream, the Consciousness of the dreamer remains the same.

However, though it was One Consciousness alone to begin with and one alone remained during the dreaming session and also after the dream ended, there were many separate consciousnesses perceived during the dream. This gives us an idea of unique characteristic of Consciousness i.e. Without being actually divided into many, one Consciousness can give rise to perception of many consciousness apparently. . This is called ChidAbhAsa (phenomenon of reflected consciousness) characteristic of Consciousness or Brahman.

Now, armed with this knowledge, we can answer all your questions on Spiritual world :

a)
Now the reason I ask for the Advaitan Viewpoint, is for clarifaction rather than Misunderstanding. For Example, If I communicate or Venerate an Ancestor Spirit, as per my tradition, I really trust it is the Spirit/Jeeva of that particular individual. Not some Formless Imaginary Construct. Even the energy signature of the particular spirit/entity/jeeva is peculiar and unique.

===> You are right. However, from Absolute point of view, everything including you is just like a dream-character which has the Consciousness of the Dreamer as the substratum. The Spirt is as real as you are. At the Absolute level, both you and the spirit are unreal. Only Brahman exists.

b)
According to the Advaitan viewpoint, The perceived jeeva is Brahman taking the form of an ancestor, as "Brahman is formless, and Brahman is All."

===> True. Not because Brahman is formless … Brahman is neither formless nor with form … it is beyond all mental constructs. The Perceived Jeeva is Brahman in absolute sense and the perceiver i.e. you too are Brahman. This is possible due to special power of Consciousness to see multitude within itself (as in dreaming state) and still remaining the same. This unique power of Brahman is called MAyA. Brahman can be with this power and also without power i.e. this power can be manifest and also unmanifest. When this power is unmanifest i.e. lies within Brahman, it is Brahman's Absolute state which alone is the sole reality and is called the "Fourth State" of Brahman. When this power is manifest … three entities apparently comes into being : God (the third state of Brahman), The Waking state (i.e. this manifest world), the Dreaming state or the Subtle world which is the world of all of us before birth and after death.

You question is whether the spirit to whom you are talking is real or unreal and just a mental construct. In this question, you have assumed that "You are real". Now, that means (by taking that assumption) that you are speaking from the Waking state (Gross world state) and from that state you are real and also the spirit is real. If you say that "I am Brahman" and the "Spirit is Brahman" … these statements are from the Absolute state. Both the statements are correct as long as you keep seeing from one state. However, you will be in serious difficulty to understand things when you mix up the phenomena of two different states. From the Absolute state, the spirit to whom you are interacting is a mental construct (of Brahman and not yours as an individual) but so you are. You cannot say : "I am real" and "the spirit to whom I am talking is unreal".

OM

Amrut
01 February 2013, 01:30 AM
Namaste,

In simple words, from practical standpoint (vyaharic satya), everything has own existence. From standpoint of supreme reality, there is only one thing - Brahman.

So if there is some ritual or a kind of process, there is duality - karma kand
But if you are meditating advaita way, then you follow it's principles during meditation and even in day-2-day life.

But one is not free from duality, so you tend to be neutral and do not practice such process like communication with other worlds, spirits, though they may be true and real and not just a concept, as in Advaita, it is not given importance. Only thing that is important is Brahman.

I am Brahman are All is Brahman is a statement and not a process or way of life. It is mental state (mansic dasha and not disha). You will have to reach it or know it.

Aum

Spirit Seeker
12 February 2013, 08:19 PM
Namaste Devotee and India. Apology's for the late response as I'm just seeing this.( I also wish my posts can go through moderation faster so they don't sink in the background of peoples attention hahaha!)

Thanks For the time you put in for a lengthy well-put response I appreciate both your input.

Devotee I understand the gist of what you are saying, but perhaps I used the wrong words to convey my message. I Post on a lot on religious and metaphysical websites for varying viewpoints, most of them have different terminology that is essentially describing almost the same thing. What I would like to call an Archetypal Symbology.

It's just the context of those explanations, the "How" is what is different. So being that this is a Religious forum and not a "New Age" forum, me calling them "Constructs" probably wouldn't be true to the 'spirit' of what the advaita philosophy actually is, rather than Idealist new age concepts(What I seen called "Neo-Advaita) twist to their own pseudo-mystical bias.

From an Advaitic standpoint to see "Everything is God" Brahman, seems like watering reality down. Isnt it not a simple explanation to a complex vast incomprehensible universe, let-alone the perceptual limitations we have as humans, the wiring of our physical brains relative to how the mind works? Like I said, I can agree with advaita that at the deepest most fundamental underlying level of reality, Brahman Is All, but what I'm bringing up is kind of missing the point as to why I asked.

The problem I have with this mindset is basically, everyone's relationship with God is personal, whether God is internal, external, a Separate entity, Or the Self etc Can depend whether it's even relevant or not. But One wouldn't approach a Living Breathing Human Being as "God". Why would one approach a Spirit this way? From a Lot of the "New Age" Ideals, which is why I used the word "Construct", people tend to forget that these beings carry their own mind, conscious, feelings, religious beliefs, opinions, emotions etc. Everything we go through and experience, in this life, and in this world, they experience too in their world, Both the good AND the bad, but yet they are mistreated as subjective projects of the subconsious mind.

If someone is a Materialist or Atheist, then that is one thing, But I would ask for the believer, if People really believed that God exists and there is a metaphysical world, why do they do this? Do they not realize that in doing so that it is disrespectful to THEM?

I would say people only adapt and embrace this mindset, because they not only lacked experience, but also verification(Indisputable Certainty) over their own experiences, of an existence far beyond their physical sight. So most resort to an "Everything is subjectivly one thing mindset) taking the good out of Materialism And Idealism, mixing it into their own spiritual pot. From this exact standpoint, there are many many atheists that do claim to be spiritual and even go as far to accept an afterlife. But it is mostly of a Subjective Idealists Philosophy.(I am my own God, Creator of my Reality) etc.

Now what I brought may or may not click with True Followers of Advaita Philosophy, everyone is an individual after all, but Im just bringing up viewpoints that are similar to Advaita, but is not actually advaita... Which is why I have Inquired on what Advaita ACTUALLY is.

I hope i'm not stepping on anyone's toes here! =/

These unseen subtle energies can as well influence the daily lives of people, whether we see, believe, lack of belief, or even realize it or not, being that their world co-exists with our world.

One cant just treat A spirit like it is "God" just because it's taken for granted, the experience is being mediated by our consciousness(Where else would it take place?). People Who put energy and awareness into the wrong spiritual entity's, get dragged back into the material world more often then not. They are not all looking to aid in one's spiritual progress, but rather, some are eager to feed your ego if a person puts energy into them. So one can be mistakened, in treating a "X" Spirit who is just passing through or lives and resides in "X" area/environment as THE God(Brahman). This is a HUGE mistake.


-So where I was getting at, as I brought up the Ancestral Example. Is the Jeeva of an Ancestor, really an ancestor carrying all it's past life memories, experiences, mood and personality along with it, from where it has once walked this earth outside the experiencer, or is it Brahman Manifesting as an ancestor, the same as Brahman can Manifest as anything in one's own mind. (Since the gods are treated as all the same too)


-From an Advaitic standpoint I ask, where does one draw the line between Subjective And Objective?

-From the Original Post and my Religious/Spiritual Background, which school or branch of Hinduism would relate closest to how I see or approach things?


Thank you for your time both! :)

Blessings.

Omkara
12 February 2013, 11:46 PM
You seem rather confused about the basics of advaita and other philosophies of hinduism. Your viewpoint is closer to vishishtadvaita than advaita.

I suggest you read http://www.bergen.edu/phr/121/ShankaraGC.pdf which contains Shankara's own exposition of advaita in his commentary on the vedanta sutras and http://www.bergen.edu/phr/121/ramanujagc.pdf ramanuja's arguments for vishishtadvaita philosophy.

devotee
13 February 2013, 12:09 AM
Namaste SS,



From an Advaitic standpoint to see "Everything is God" Brahman, seems like watering reality down. Isnt it not a simple explanation to a complex vast incomprehensible universe, let-alone the perceptual limitations we have as humans, the wiring of our physical brains relative to how the mind works? Like I said, I can agree with advaita that at the deepest most fundamental underlying level of reality, Brahman Is All, but what I'm bringing up is kind of missing the point as to why I asked.

I am amazed if you find it so simple ! My dear friend, if it was that simple to understand, Bheda-abheda Achintya swaroop and Vishishta Advaita would have no place in VedAnta schools ! I am a practising Advaitin and I find it a difficult model to explain and you say that it is easy ! That is something highly surprising.



But One wouldn't approach a Living Breathing Human Being as "God". Why would one approach a Spirit this way? From a Lot of the "New Age" Ideals, which is why I used the word "Construct", people tend to forget that these beings carry their own mind, conscious, feelings, religious beliefs, opinions, emotions etc. Everything we go through and experience, in this life, and in this world, they experience too in their world, Both the good AND the bad, but yet they are mistreated as subjective projects of the subconsious mind.

You have not read my post carefully. From any person's position, the disembodied beings are as real as the person is.


These unseen subtle energies can as well influence the daily lives of people, whether we see, believe, lack of belief, or even realize it or not, being that their world co-exists with our world.

The more you believe in them, the more they affect you. Also, these disembodied souls are not very high spiritual beings otherwise they won't disturb people. So, if you are at a lower spiritual status, they may affect you more.


One cant just treat A spirit like it is "God" just because it's taken for granted, the experience is being mediated by our consciousness(Where else would it take place?). People Who put energy and awareness into the wrong spiritual entity's, get dragged back into the material world more often then not. They are not all looking to aid in one's spiritual progress, but rather, some are eager to feed your ego if a person puts energy into them. So one can be mistakened, in treating a "X" Spirit who is just passing through or lives and resides in "X" area/environment as THE God(Brahman). This is a HUGE mistake.

Did you understand when I used the terms, "From Absolute point of view" and "speaking from the waking state" ? You will get your answer once you understand these terms.



-So where I was getting at, as I brought up the Ancestral Example. Is the Jeeva of an Ancestor, really an ancestor carrying all it's past life memories, experiences, mood and personality along with it, from where it has once walked this earth outside the experiencer, or is it Brahman Manifesting as an ancestor, the same as Brahman can Manifest as anything in one's own mind. (Since the gods are treated as all the same too)

The disembodied soul is just like you and me except that it has no physical body but has subtle body. It may be your ancestor who is still not liberated from the cycles of life and death and also that it has not taken birth.


From an Advaitic standpoint I ask, where does one draw the line between Subjective And Objective?

-From the Original Post and my Religious/Spiritual Background, which school or branch of Hinduism would relate closest to how I see or approach things?

The terms "Real" or "Unreal", and sayings like "I am Brahman", "Everything is Brahman" ... have different meanings in different states of existence. Whatever is "Real" in waking state may be "unreal" from the "Absolute" point of view. Everything is Brahman ... if you take it literally and approach a "Tiger Brahman" or "Cobra Brahman" who is hungry/angry then you are in serious trouble.

Both Coal and diamond are carbon i.e. they are essentially same. So, will you sell your diamonds at the price of coal ?

OM

Necromancer
13 February 2013, 02:02 AM
Hi Namaste All.

As someone who comes from a Spiritualist Background its difficult for me to understand the Advaitian viewpoint as it relates to the spiritual worlds. From my impression on the mainstream Advaita, it treats "Everything" as "God".. As "all is Brahma."

I can agree that all Brahman is All, but not all is Brahman.

For instance, in my spiritualist traditions which is mainly derived from indegiouness practices stemming from the Carribean to Brazil, our gods are not seen as "imaginary" constructs of a subjective mind. To their followers, the gods are as real and interactive towards us, as your neighbor next door, or that grocer from down the block. These Gods communicate directly via Divination, or Possession.(Altered State of consciousness) And they can share many amazing and profound things, assisting us with our lives directly.

Many people who practice these traditions happens to be spiritualist mediums. So they are gifted with spiritual sight(clairvoyance, 3rd eye, divine eye etc.). Many of these spiritualist who are gifted with the Spiritual Sight, Change Many Peoples lives, even skeptical people, when they communicate with a persons loved who who's passed, or who can spot out and verify someones spiritual or assisting spirit guides hanging around that individual.They interact and commune directly with the deceased, ancestors, Nature Spirits, Elementals etc.

I've never been to India, but India being a 'mystical' spiritual land as well I would presume that they have similiar practices to these in certain areas. Having experienced and directly validated my metaphycisal experiences conerning the objectivity of Metaphysical Entitys, and Gods etc. It has changed my life profoundly, and has lead me to Seek God, as where My Life was before God, I was highly skeptical materialist Agnostic.

Here is my Belief. Since Brahman pervades all, At this level, and at THEIR personal, individual consciousness level, spirits exist as we do, as uniquely separate individiuals, having, as I said, personal consciousnesses.

However, eventually, as you follow the layers of the bodies upwards, you get to a place where everything is one being... something so huge, so vast, it's incomprehensable. At that level, everything that exists, here, there, everywhere, every choice ever made that created a new reality, every entity on every part of astral, every world here or there, every spirit, every soul, is the same entity.

Take a leaf off of any tree... The leaf is a leaf. It looks and IS different from every other leaf. At the same time... when you really look at the structure of the leaf, it is an EXACT MIRROR IMAGE of the way the treee grows. The branches in the leaf are like the branches in the tree. A perfect copy.

THAT is what we are ALL like, humans and spirits alike... at one level, we're all leaves, separate and completely ourselves... but even down here, at our core, we're copies of the All, which is everything that is, everything that could be, and everything that isn't... and if you follow our stems far enough upwards, you find the tree itself.

Now the reason I ask for the Advaitan Viewpoint, is for clarifaction rather than Misunderstanding. For Example, If I communicate or Venerate an Ancestor Spirit, as per my tradition, I really trust it is the Spirit/Jeeva of that particular individual. Not some Formless Imaginary Construct. Even the energy signature of the particular spirit/entity/jeeva is peculiar and unique.

According to the Advaitan viewpoint, The perceived jeeva is Brahman taking the form of an ancestor, as "Brahman is formless, and Brahman is All."

I hope this doesnt turn into a heated debate, as I dont want to compare spirituality's realizing that this is a Hindu forum, and the content will mainly be hindu, but im just inquiring as I dont want to misunderstand anything. I've gotten into a lot of debates with New Agers and Neo-Mystics, about whether these beings exist Subjectively or Objectively. But I have my answer already.

So I just ask ,Is this really how it's seen through the Advaitan viewpoint or am I missing anything?

Blessings, and Thank you.
Namaste.

Growing up on the island of Bali, Indonesia, I had the chance to witness and be part of this Hindu tradition incorporating Animist beliefs.

Yes, of course Agama and Ancestor worship are a total dichotomy to even try and make any sense of...yet, here I was praying to 'nothing' for all those restless souls in purgatory.

I am a 'Spiritualist' in the sense of being a Theosophist and I'm a student of Advaita Vedanta.

If I wanted to get all hard core about it, I can say that in the Light of Ultimate Reality, everything is Maya/Illusion. This World, the Spirit World, Heaven, Hell...even illusion itself (that's a really big hurdle to jump). We can say 'neti neti' and becone nihilists of the known universe...OR

We can go 'Sarvam Iti' and yeah, everything is Brahman now, all the Worlds, Maya, God...

Do these Worlds/Souls exist? who knows?

Maybe souls exist on another 'World' or maybe they have been reborn onto this one in another form. We cannot begin to understand what Karma has in store for us...you may be praying for your dead uncle who is now a little girl in Poland.

Aum Namah Shivaya

brahman
13 February 2013, 02:17 AM
Dear S.Seeker,




Thank you for your time both! :)

Blessings.


-From an Advaitic standpoint I ask, where does one draw the line between Subjective And Objective?

It finds its own distinction at the level of the normative notion of the Absolute.

Please Read>>
(http://hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=97558&postcount=1)


-From the Original Post and my Religious/Spiritual Background, which school or branch of Hinduism would relate closest to how I see or approach things?

It is not really clear from your posts. kindly include your philosophical view points on


Reality

The cosmic System

Creation

Souls

Reason for Bondage of the souls

Karma/ Action

Spiritual practices if any

Liberation etc..


Love:)

Amrut
13 February 2013, 10:19 AM
Namaste Devotee and India. Apology's for the late response as I'm just seeing this.( I also wish my posts can go through moderation faster so they don't sink in the background of peoples attention hahaha!)

Thanks For the time you put in for a lengthy well-put response I appreciate both your input.

Devotee I understand the gist of what you are saying, but perhaps I used the wrong words to convey my message. I Post on a lot on religious and metaphysical websites for varying viewpoints, most of them have different terminology that is essentially describing almost the same thing. What I would like to call an Archetypal Symbology.

It's just the context of those explanations, the "How" is what is different. So being that this is a Religious forum and not a "New Age" forum, me calling them "Constructs" probably wouldn't be true to the 'spirit' of what the advaita philosophy actually is, rather than Idealist new age concepts(What I seen called "Neo-Advaita) twist to their own pseudo-mystical bias.

From an Advaitic standpoint to see "Everything is God" Brahman, seems like watering reality down. Isnt it not a simple explanation to a complex vast incomprehensible universe, let-alone the perceptual limitations we have as humans, the wiring of our physical brains relative to how the mind works? Like I said, I can agree with advaita that at the deepest most fundamental underlying level of reality, Brahman Is All, but what I'm bringing up is kind of missing the point as to why I asked.

The problem I have with this mindset is basically, everyone's relationship with God is personal, whether God is internal, external, a Separate entity, Or the Self etc Can depend whether it's even relevant or not. But One wouldn't approach a Living Breathing Human Being as "God". Why would one approach a Spirit this way? From a Lot of the "New Age" Ideals, which is why I used the word "Construct", people tend to forget that these beings carry their own mind, conscious, feelings, religious beliefs, opinions, emotions etc. Everything we go through and experience, in this life, and in this world, they experience too in their world, Both the good AND the bad, but yet they are mistreated as subjective projects of the subconsious mind.

If someone is a Materialist or Atheist, then that is one thing, But I would ask for the believer, if People really believed that God exists and there is a metaphysical world, why do they do this? Do they not realize that in doing so that it is disrespectful to THEM?

I would say people only adapt and embrace this mindset, because they not only lacked experience, but also verification(Indisputable Certainty) over their own experiences, of an existence far beyond their physical sight. So most resort to an "Everything is subjectivly one thing mindset) taking the good out of Materialism And Idealism, mixing it into their own spiritual pot. From this exact standpoint, there are many many atheists that do claim to be spiritual and even go as far to accept an afterlife. But it is mostly of a Subjective Idealists Philosophy.(I am my own God, Creator of my Reality) etc.

Now what I brought may or may not click with True Followers of Advaita Philosophy, everyone is an individual after all, but Im just bringing up viewpoints that are similar to Advaita, but is not actually advaita... Which is why I have Inquired on what Advaita ACTUALLY is.

I hope i'm not stepping on anyone's toes here! =/

These unseen subtle energies can as well influence the daily lives of people, whether we see, believe, lack of belief, or even realize it or not, being that their world co-exists with our world.

One cant just treat A spirit like it is "God" just because it's taken for granted, the experience is being mediated by our consciousness(Where else would it take place?). People Who put energy and awareness into the wrong spiritual entity's, get dragged back into the material world more often then not. They are not all looking to aid in one's spiritual progress, but rather, some are eager to feed your ego if a person puts energy into them. So one can be mistakened, in treating a "X" Spirit who is just passing through or lives and resides in "X" area/environment as THE God(Brahman). This is a HUGE mistake.


-So where I was getting at, as I brought up the Ancestral Example. Is the Jeeva of an Ancestor, really an ancestor carrying all it's past life memories, experiences, mood and personality along with it, from where it has once walked this earth outside the experiencer, or is it Brahman Manifesting as an ancestor, the same as Brahman can Manifest as anything in one's own mind. (Since the gods are treated as all the same too)


-From an Advaitic standpoint I ask, where does one draw the line between Subjective And Objective?

-From the Original Post and my Religious/Spiritual Background, which school or branch of Hinduism would relate closest to how I see or approach things?


Thank you for your time both! :)

Blessings.

Brother, What Omkara says is true.

You are mixing many paths, including Yog, new-age like reiki and other energy based techniques, automatic writing, exploring higher worlds, Vishista Advaita and Advaita

Just to caution that Brahma sutras are not for beginners. When one is well versed in Upanishads and still find some doubts, Brahma sutras will solve them. I have not read them and none of Upanishads. They are not given to me.

Earlier I have been practicing Pranic Healing and was a clairvoyant, had intuitions, could smell divine aroma of spiritual energy or some spiritual being, higher being, etc. I have been a medium in healing people, in fact, not just people, just animals and plants woo. Plants are living and they do give a response.

So I understand you very well.

No path rejects any other path or it's philosophy. It neglects and does not give importance.

e.g. Advaita does not give importance to subtle bodies and I am not aware of any advaita text that describe chakras and their functions in details.

Vivekchudamani, Tatva Bodh, etc does say there are 5 bodies, but does not give importance them them and instructs one to go beyond them as you are none of them.

First let me share 4 paths I know in brief (Please correct if I am wrong.)

1. Yog: rising of kundalini from muladhara (root / basic) chakra to sahastra (crown) chakra. When kundalini reaches crown, meditator can experience vast inner sky, which looks similar to night. It has small stars, etc. When one goes beyond it, you see prakash (light), beyond it you are one with God (paramatman).

Yog gives importance to service also.

2. Bhakti: Chanting Gods name so that one day you can have divine vision of God and stay with him, enjoy his company, watch his lila, serve him.

2.a Dvaita: I and God are separate
2.b. Vishistadvaita: I and god are one, but still individuality of Jiva is retained.

3 Jnana / Advaita: I am Brahman.

4. karma: Thsi should have been first one, but karma, as I understand is for chitta-shuddhi.

After one achieves mental purity, one can shift in either bhakti or Jnana according to Prakruti.

New-age phenomenon is not traditional. In traditional teachings, first a disciple is realized and then send by Guru / God to preach / Teach. All avatars (except RAma and Krushna) first meditated, established themselves in Atma Sthiti and then began to spread the word. Even the great compassionate Buddha first meditated and then spread.

New-age theory / occult / theosophy, just trains one for some time and then they are told to spread. Their main aim is to spread (be it teacings or peace). It is like patient treating patient.

They twist the teachings:

I read a book intro and it said that following upanishad says there are 5 bodies. So he concluded that there are subtle bodies, they have chakras and they should be explored.

That upanishad ( I do not remember the name) did say that there are 5 bodies.

But when the disciple came to guru with experience that - ' I saw energy body - pranamaya kosha'. Guru simply said keep meditating. disiple got same answer till he realized Brahman. So Guru was not encouraging him to explore this energy body. He did not gave any importance to it and simply said, go and meditate.

After I was handed over to Advaita Guru, who follows traditional path, I was told not to give any kind of importance to any experiences, mostly like rising of Kundalini, visions that yogis have, seeing chakras, etc. My Guru even went on to say that it is not necessary that to realize Kundalini should be activated.. forget it. Later when I was having very few experiences of this kind, he told me that there everything exists, even kundalini, but our path does not give importance. So just neglect it.

Exploring subtle worlds, etc are not traditional Yog. Yog means just union of jiva with paramatman. In due course, a yogi may experience them, but to specifically meditate or do a secret process to achieve control and mastery over subtle powers of God is not taught. Powers may come, but you don to meditate to gain powers.

What new-age people do is to bring spiritual energy down and spread it. Advaita does not give importance to any of this process.

Regarding Neo-Vedanta. It was coined by Swami Vivekananda

It was a need for the hour. During his time, many young people were getting nastika (athiest). Indians have been ruled for more than 400 years and the rulers did their bast to break our backbone - religion and spirituality.

Britisher brought Christian religion. They lured and bribed people with basic necessities like food, clothing and shelter. When it comes to poor people, survival is prime important. So many people accepted christian faith. In the same way western philosophy was blindly accepted.

Swami Realized this and so developed a similar approach. He said that instead of just parroting our great shastras and not practicing better is to serve. Let Hindus first remain Hindus. So he started preaching service to humanity and opened many schools, hospitals, encouraged donations and service to poor. He said that the one who sees shiva is poor and serves him, is serving shiva himself.

It was the need of the hour. He laid the foundation of unity and brotherhood among people, first to be physically free (freedom struggle) so that we can practice our faith freely. Swamiji laid foundations of freedom struggle and introduced Hinduism to the west. We got recognized by the world and appreciated because of him. Swamiji had the steeping stone.

But people are wrongly quoting him and try to fit him in their own ideology, trying to get themselves attested of what they are doing.

Aum

Indiaspirituality

Amrut
13 February 2013, 10:37 AM
continued ...

Now when it comes to subjective and objective - relative and absolute,

It is a long long discussion. You may have to study advaita.

Every seeker, no matter what paths he follows, in the beginning, he is practically in dvaita.

So one has to rise from this duality to advaita sthiti, by practicing and following what shastras say.

Now to practically apply it in life, the question comes 'HOW"

Describe of shat-sampatti, shama, dama, uparati, titiksha, shraddha, samadham

Now when it says shama and dama, mind control and control over 5 senses, it may or may not say - HOW

To apply, an e.g. is the best way to understand and get inspired.

So, when someone tries to insult you, you will have to tolerate it, do not fire back. Keep calm, have some deep breaths, surrender to God, make a firm decision, not to curse him or fire back. Do not think what others are thinking, just surrender to God, etc, etc.

This approach may or may not be given. So one needs a Guru, a guide who knows your nature, has passed through this phase, to guide you through this incident. not all things are found in shastras.

Only a Guru can guide you as to how you should stay in this subjective world, as he knows your mental status, you nature, ability and weakness. Simply following shastras may even backfire.

Many statements are references, to be taken as benchmark. But a way has to be found to reach that state.

So All is brahman and Brahman is all are both correct.

A snake-rope analogy can help one understand it. Entire advaita can be explained. some contradicting statements can also be explained.

you enter a dark room and see the snake

So either you try to run away or you try to catch it. There is activity, born our of fear, insecurity or any desire like earning or hunger, etc

But when you switch on light and in a flash, snake is gone, it's just rope.

Now the activity stops.

So, All is Brahman and Brahman is all

Wherever there is snake, there is rope and vice versa.

I guess you figured out that snake is prakruti / maya and rope is brahman

Aum
IS

Amrut
13 February 2013, 10:42 AM
last part :)

When you are in contact with higher souls, arch-angels, angels, spirit guides, or any energy, you mind remains active. The purpose of spirituality is is to mind. This purpose is defeated.

As far as advaita is concerned, you will never be out of duality.

Similarly, to serve, someone has to be there to be served - again always withing duality

To explore, you will be lost in maya, in inner universe - again, mind remains active - engaged in exploration

In all above cases, the purpose is defeated, atleast from Advaita POV

Caution: Once you enter deep into this energy phenomenon, after some years, you may not be able to come out of it.

Again, Just to remind you, advaita does not endorse these activities, it neglects it (i.e. the purpose of denying is to neglect and decrease importance in the mind of disciple, so that he will not be distracted).

Else if you say, that upon self realization, world disappears, then even if one person is realized, this world will vanish.

Infact nothing changes but your vision (you have jnana dristi)

So it would be correct to say

In Jnana sthiti or dristi - samsara is negated (bAdha or baadha)

In state of Self Realization, world is absent, negated.

I hope this is helpful.

Aum
IS

Spirit Seeker
16 February 2013, 02:15 PM
@Omkara and anyone else. It's not so much that I'm that "confused", rather I have difficultys expressing or conveying what it is exactly is on my mind, how I process it, and then how I convey or express it, even writing it down right now. As I do have a mental syndrome where there is disconnect from what is on my mind, and how I "Put it out". So I hope not to come off the wrong way.


I just had to put that out there, if anyone has trouble understanding me... So I thank you all for your patience. Thank you omkara I have saved those articles.


Namaste SS,

I am amazed if you find it so simple ! My dear friend, if it was that simple to understand, Bheda-abheda Achintya swaroop and Vishishta Advaita would have no place in VedAnta schools ! I am a practising Advaitin and I find it a difficult model to explain and you say that it is easy ! That is something highly surprising.

Namaste Devotee and thank you for having the patience for this discussion. I am no stranger to the experience of "Oneness" I guess like Omkara brought up, my view would be closest to that of vishdaivata, which I have been looking more into. Although I know nothing of True Advaita as Hinduism presents it, I know your learning in the traditional way, and I respect that, I didnt mean to come off as "Holier then thou", but you and I both know, when one goes through such experiences, it is beyond any word that can describe it. So I guess I can only say I know from some experience, and I dont really see it as "Complex" because it simply "Is".. Aside from how advaita presents it anyways. But that doesn't stop for that as long as I continue to live, I will continue learning.

I hope I'm making sense.




You have not read my post carefully. From any person's position, the disembodied beings are as real as the person is.

I apologize for completely missing, I have read your post several times, as I do try to analyze context, in such discussions, context is what's important to see from what standpoint, the individual approaches the reality, of a particular situation, experience, or the larger reality as a Whole.

Can I ask, to what degree do you accept that these beings are real? Can a spiritual being in your view be just as "real" as Spongebob Squarepants or Mickey Mouse? From my understanding and my background. There are varying degrees of spiritual beings. There are beings. Spirits, that Exist Within, of and are a part of conciousness, which gives them a direct link to an individual that has a spiritual vibration and frequency on their level.. Meaning Like can attract like. Spiritually Enlightened people can attract Positive beings of Conciousness, While The Opposites, can attract the negatives, or dual etc.

The other being of that Nature spirits, Elementals, Jinns etc, whatever a person chooses to call them are made of a different matter composition, Darker Matter, Dark Plasma, See Dark Plasma Theory here: http://www.dapla.org/pdf/dplife.pdf

Regardless of a persons belief or lack of belief, these beings are always around us, They are not "Of" conciousness directly similiar to we are, they simply exist on a different vibrational frequency in a semi-corporal form, unseen all around us. They are not eternal, they live and die just as we do.




The more you believe in them, the more they affect you.

This is part of what I was directing at, as to why I brought this topic up, from the standpoint of monism( Most I have come across). That "They can only exist and affect you if you believe in them"

I know there is a popular saying, "Seeing is believing", which demonstrates that one needs to believe and have faith, in order to see and experience these sort of things. But for some people such as Myself it is the reverse.

Being a materialistic agnostic(Which gives one the benefit of "Blocking" these things out), I couldnt become a believer, until I Seen, Experienced, and Verified. From that point on, it was impossible to go back to my old self. My Ego and everything I knew about what I thought was reality was shattered, I havent been the 'same' since.

So my theory is, that a persons belief system in their own mind, can filter, and influence how they interpret an energy/spirit, but it does not change the energy objectivly for what it is. People who trap themselves in their left brain, can still feel the influence or sensation of external spiritual energies even in every day life, but being the non-believers that they are, they would just attempt to rationalize it, or just conclude that it was "themself" projecting.


Also, these disembodied souls are not very high spiritual beings otherwise they won't disturb people. So, if you are at a lower spiritual status, they may affect you more.

I disagree, but I would just agree to disagree so our discussion doesnt go far off course. Although, I do agree, that the "average joe" has a higher chance of dealing with oppresion and having their life intruded.

As for the spiritual status, I dont really see it as Linear Hierarchical. To me they simply "are". As to why they disturb people, if they are non-human, I try not to project my human understanding on their very being. Their nature is simply indifferent. Like we are to insects, plants, trees, critters, all "lesser life" in order for mankinds selfish ways to continue to exist and evolve. Like they are to us. You cant force a lion to become a vegeterian, they need to sustain their existence. It's part of the cycle of life.

I beg to ask considering any entity of a different nature, how can it truly understand "good" from the stand point of being a human being that it is not?



The disembodied soul is just like you and me except that it has no physical body but has subtle body. It may be your ancestor who is still not liberated from the cycles of life and death and also that it has not taken birth.

I understand now.



The terms "Real" or "Unreal", and sayings like "I am Brahman", "Everything is Brahman" ... have different meanings in different states of existence. Whatever is "Real" in waking state may be "unreal" from the "Absolute" point of view. Everything is Brahman ... if you take it literally and approach a "Tiger Brahman" or "Cobra Brahman" who is hungry/angry then you are in serious trouble.

Both Coal and diamond are carbon i.e. they are essentially same. So, will you sell your diamonds at the price of coal ?

I see, and Thank you.

Spirit Seeker
16 February 2013, 02:33 PM
Namaste.

Growing up on the island of Bali, Indonesia, I had the chance to witness and be part of this Hindu tradition incorporating Animist beliefs.

Yes, of course Agama and Ancestor worship are a total dichotomy to even try and make any sense of...yet, here I was praying to 'nothing' for all those restless souls in purgatory.

I am a 'Spiritualist' in the sense of being a Theosophist and I'm a student of Advaita Vedanta.

If I wanted to get all hard core about it, I can say that in the Light of Ultimate Reality, everything is Maya/Illusion. This World, the Spirit World, Heaven, Hell...even illusion itself (that's a really big hurdle to jump). We can say 'neti neti' and becone nihilists of the known universe...OR

We can go 'Sarvam Iti' and yeah, everything is Brahman now, all the Worlds, Maya, God...

Do these Worlds/Souls exist? who knows?

Maybe souls exist on another 'World' or maybe they have been reborn onto this one in another form. We cannot begin to understand what Karma has in store for us...you may be praying for your dead uncle who is now a little girl in Poland.

Aum Namah Shivaya

Hi thanks for the response. Yes my spiritual background carries heavy animist elements. The Veneration of Nature, The universal Elements, and those that walk among it seen and unseen. I equally have High Respect for The Living, Dead, and those "creatures" that exist in those "In-between" States of Physical Matter and Conciousness energy.

I cant help but bring this topic up as I feel that these discussions are under-rated because for what I take for granted, these things are not an "Every day Reality" to most. Most think that it is "weird" even if they do claim to be spiritual or religious. It is something that is not discussed often.(Aside From New Age.)

For Reincarnation, I believe that the soul and spirit are linked but distinct.(Insert your own hindu terms to replace). In african reincarnation, a Person who's passed can merge with the collective ancestral energy, Still remain a spirit, while simultaniously incarnating into earthly flesh. They often believe they come back as Family Members.

The brain is simply a bio electrical antenna which takes these signals from the Higher self/Astral Self/Soul/Whatever and process them into thoughts, emotion, feeling and actions, etc...It generates the spirit, your mind, your thoughts, your personality, your being. It is the one that is Human, and remains with it's perceived gender .(In form) It is like a sponge that absorbs and leaves traces of itself everywhere and it covers the soul. One's own perceived individuality.

So for those who speak to the dead, if a person were to die as a child for example, their spirit will always remain that of a child(in perceived form), but instead their personal identities will nevertheless be drastically altered, no longer having the same constructs and algorithms guiding their thought processing. So while maintaining child-like mannerisms, they have plenty of room to spiritually evolve if they so choose.

Spiritual evolving meaning "going to heaven", Re-merging with the Soul(group), or simply cutting loose all ties to the collective physical reality forever.

When one dies their soul is poured one soul into another, 5 people, 10 people, 20 people, a 100 people, but of course the more that is poured out, the less they share your exact ethereal energy, but they still share you nevertheless.

Spirit Seeker
16 February 2013, 02:48 PM
Dear S.Seeker,




It finds its own distinction at the level of the normative notion of the Absolute.

Please Read>>
(http://hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=97558&postcount=1)



It is not really clear from your posts. kindly include your philosophical view points on


Reality

The cosmic System

Creation

Souls

Reason for Bondage of the souls

Karma/ Action

Spiritual practices if any

Liberation etc..


Love:)

Namaste Brahman.

Reality: Honestly Not sure, Or unsure how to describe this. If generally speaking, I'm still learning, and willing to compromise my views(Although I can never turn my back on my experiences)

I honestly have no dang clue "what" reality" is, I'm just enjoying the ride. :D

Creation:
I believe like most hindus here that the universe is infinite.(Beyond the observable physical universe) It has always existed, will continue to exist, because it must exist. It exists because it "Just does".

The cosmic System: There are no Heirarchal forces, aside from human perceptual limitation, or 'convenience' for the lack of a better world.

Only God is the greatest, Supreme, and most high. Everything "Below", All between heaven and earth and creation are 'equal'.

Souls : Similiar to Atma, And self. But I now have a better understanding of it with it's relationship towards the Jeeva, as described in Hinduism.

Karma/ Action:
I believe Karma is "Cause And Effect" rather then "What goes around, comes around". I strongly Believe, how we live this life, and how we practice our beliefs, will have a huge impact on "where we will go" when the next life comes around.

Spiritual practices if any:
Ritual, Veneration Of ancestors, The Dead, Anthropomorphic Deity's(Lesser Gods), Celestial Forces/Spirits that represent different aspects of nature some see as personifications or extensions, Animal Sacrafice.

Liberation etc..:

I'm not sure what this means. Does it have to be similar to obtaining "Moksha"?

Blessings!

Spirit Seeker
16 February 2013, 02:53 PM
Namaste Indiaspirituality, My Jaw dropped. I aplogize If I cant come up with a good long enough response to go along with everything you just posted as you made sure to have hit it in every angle.

I thank you and devotee for your patience, and I thank you for giving me a better grasp of advaita, even though for me this is just the tip of the iceberg of what Advaita has to offer.

I highly appreciate and am grateful for you taking the time to write all this out. You have a friend in me.

Brightest THanks! Thank you all for your help.

Blessings.

devotee
16 February 2013, 09:08 PM
Namaste SS,



Can I ask, to what degree do you accept that these beings are real? Can a spiritual being in your view be just as "real" as Spongebob Squarepants or Mickey Mouse?

Are you as real as Spongebob squarepants or Mickey Mouse ?


The other being of that Nature spirits, Elementals, Jinns etc, whatever a person chooses to call them are made of a different matter composition, Darker Matter, Dark Plasma, See Dark Plasma Theory here: http://www.dapla.org/pdf/dplife.pdf

These things do exist as we exist, if that satisfies you.


Regardless of a persons belief or lack of belief, these beings are always around us, They are not "Of" conciousness directly similiar to we are, they simply exist on a different vibrational frequency in a semi-corporal form, unseen all around us. They are not eternal, they live and die just as we do.

It is better if you are not involved with these entities unless they are spiritually developed spirits. You gather the spiritual vibrations of "beings" around you.


This is part of what I was directing at, as to why I brought this topic up, from the standpoint of monism( Most I have come across). That "They can only exist and affect you if you believe in them"

Nature keeps beings of subtle worlds hidden from us for a purpose. For being able to communicate and interact with them ... your mind must be tuned to that and your spiritual level should allow this. What happens that the more you believe in them ... you attract them ... as your thoughts are not in vain but vibrations of consciousness which are highly powerful. So, your thoughts do make a big difference. If you are spiritually powerful, no being can do anything against your wishes.


I know there is a popular saying, "Seeing is believing", which demonstrates that one needs to believe and have faith, in order to see and experience these sort of things. But for some people such as Myself it is the reverse.

I have seen it all myself and all that was not at all fake. But you should believe what I say for your own benefit.


Being a materialistic agnostic(Which gives one the benefit of "Blocking" these things out), I couldnt become a believer, until I Seen, Experienced, and Verified. From that point on, it was impossible to go back to my old self. My Ego and everything I knew about what I thought was reality was shattered, I havent been the 'same' since.

That is why I suggest that you concentrate upon your spiritual advancement and not on these beings.


So my theory is, that a persons belief system in their own mind, can filter, and influence how they interpret an energy/spirit, but it does not change the energy objectivly for what it is. People who trap themselves in their left brain, can still feel the influence or sensation of external spiritual energies even in every day life, but being the non-believers that they are, they would just attempt to rationalize it, or just conclude that it was "themself" projecting.

It is ok but why go in adirection which is full of danger ?


I disagree, but I would just agree to disagree so our discussion doesnt go far off course. Although, I do agree, that the "average joe" has a higher chance of dealing with oppresion and having their life intruded.

If you are talking of some saint's soul coming into contact with you ... then you are lucky. However, in most of the cases, these beings are not-so-good beings and who are attached to this world's bondages.


As for the spiritual status, I dont really see it as Linear Hierarchical. To me they simply "are". As to why they disturb people, if they are non-human, I try not to project my human understanding on their very being. Their nature is simply indifferent. Like we are to insects, plants, trees, critters, all "lesser life" in order for mankinds selfish ways to continue to exist and evolve. Like they are to us. You cant force a lion to become a vegeterian, they need to sustain their existence. It's part of the cycle of life.

There is a good book written by a very highly placed Government official, "Maine Pari ke paaon dekhe" (I saw the feet of a nymph). Here in this book whatever you say is described vividly and he actually saw the feet of the nymph which was called by a tAntrik in a closed chamber to offer them a feast. This fellow got hooked to this knowledge and wanted to learn the trick of calling beings of other world when he wanted. When the tAntrik learnt this, he laughed wryly and said, "Don't fall in the ditch that I have fallen into. You are asking for poison.". I have some real life stories of some people too whom I closely know who could at some time were able to interact with these beings ... they finally learnt that this road leads to hell and they came out of it.

So, my sincere advice is that you should better stay away from all these. But it is your decision which matters.

OM

NayaSurya
16 February 2013, 10:11 PM
Hari Om and namaste to all who may see this. It has been a long while since i come here and tonight for some reason i did...and this is the thread i stumble upon. i can only think Beloved brought me for this reason. Fresh from our Temple, i do think it is true.

Hari Om Namah Shivaya...Beloved Everything<3

My father killed himself a year ago on New Years Eve. Now, previously i had very little contact with him, though i did call and tell him i love him. He had been sincerely trying to change...even stopped drinking...only to have a stroke while driving, then a heart attack while he was in the car trapped...and became paralyzed from the waist down. He refused to live this way despite them saying he could fully recover with some time to heal and refused food and water.

Now, you can read back to many posts, that i was sad, for i would not get to spend time with the man who was finally trying to become a father...but was SO overjoyed he was going to have a new day, a new life...and the chance to perhaps have a loving family (as he was severely abused as a child).

Now, what does this have to do with your conversation?

Well....flash foward to this past Autumn...you see i have always had others around me....they never show themself...so i lived very peacefully.

I'll be honest, they are helpers...amazing helpers.

But in the Autumn i decided to record a song on video for my friends and when i put it on my computer...Beloved Shiva...the thing was full of screams...anger....threats to my entire family...the worst horrific, filthy vile things were said...and high above...the singing and beautiful high voices were so kind. There were layers of voices upon the different frequencies...and the loudest...the most angry...forlorned...aggressive. Was my own biological father.

He thought i was Muslim...because he was still just as ignorant as he was in life.

The once peaceful home...the once peaceful prayers became tainted by this angry man. I grew silent...sought shelter in my Beloved Temple ...though it is almost 1 hour thirty minutes from our home....we did...we go...and it is the only place i had peace for many months.

For all the good those Beloved Devas brought to me upon that recording...the encouraging beautiful things.

They were utterly obliterated by these dark demons which were using my father to get to me. He said "I'll get to her." Deep voice says "YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO." "I KNOW BUT SHE'S MY DAUGHTER!!!"

My own sister almost died from this....she is now going to be fighting COPD and Emphasema for the rest of her life and she just turned 40...my entire family was stricken, two of my children were severely ill and had trips to the E.R. and our hospital.

I believe it was Beloved Krishna who warns about worshiping ghosts...and i tell you...even giving them one moment, is just this.

There is much more...i may unlock my diary to the full story as a warning.

Now, you know i did not ask for this....his death was the begining to them finding me..and they don't care about you...or your life....they want you to suffer...the coldness of their hearts can not be understood from our warm position so near to Beloved's Warm Heart.

Hari Om, Beloved Mahadeva, my Heart....my ocean of happiness <3

NayaSurya
16 February 2013, 10:19 PM
P.S.
From what i can understand about the other thing (are we real are they real) above.

People...souls have layers upon us.

This lifetime, this me is a layer.

Those spirits on my recording? Still utterly ignorant, they knew nothing more than they did at their death! This was quite a suprise to me, but it makes sense with Advaita.

You see they are still in that "angry man" mode...still within that skin/layer and still playing out that drama in that personality.

Each layer, becomes removed with sadhana...karma burnt...lots of lessons...lots of Mercy.

Under these layers...Pure Beloved.

The layers not only separate us from our True Selves, but from each other too.

So that's my evolving understanding upon our existence...from what i have seen here.

Which really and truly explains the vast ignorance and vile behaviour of those poor folks below us.

May Beloved Have Mercy upon them.

Hari om <3

Amrut
17 February 2013, 03:18 AM
Namaste,

Spirits are all real. Shastras say there are 7 lokas and 14 bhuvans. Some above and some below earth. Mostly you can find it in Garuda Purana. May be other knowledgeable members can say something more and give importance.

Spirits are true entities, but if you ask advaita standpoint, you will have to neglect them and do not give importance.

Planes higher than bhu loka (pruthvi loka) are yonis higher than human race like that of devas.

one can definitely communicate with them, but if you are asking from a standpoint of advaita or even dvaita, nothing except God should be given importance.

I too have felt pressure on head, felt them and even saw them. I am talking of higher beings when I was Practising Pranic Healing. Some communicate during meditation, some during healing, etc. But traditional advaita do not give them importance

In bhagavad Gita, Bhagavan Krushna in chapter 9 verse 25 says

The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; but My devotees come to Me.

source: English translation by Swami Sivananda
http://202.3.77.102/acquia/?q=node/27

so it is upto you whom you want to stay with. Sure these things spirits, good and bad, divine, devil, etc exists and so does heaven and hell

The more you take interest in them, the more you will come close in them and be influenced in them.

But then what is your purpose of life? the answer will show you the path.

Aum
IS

Spirit Seeker
18 February 2013, 07:00 PM
Namaste all, ^ I already as well responded to everyone previously above, but only had one of my posts approved faster then the others. =/ *sigh*


Nature keeps beings of subtle worlds hidden from us for a purpose. For being able to communicate and interact with them ... your mind must be tuned to that and your spiritual level should allow this. What happens that the more you believe in them ... you attract them ... as your thoughts are not in vain but vibrations of consciousness which are highly powerful. So, your thoughts do make a big difference. If you are spiritually powerful, no being can do anything against your wishes.

Namaste, Devotee

According to Advaita(Or perhaps Hinduism Overall) what is the purpose that these worlds are hidden from us?



That is why I suggest that you concentrate upon your spiritual advancement and not on these beings.

Oh dont get me wrong, I know full well how uncanny and dangerous a lot of them can be.(Depending on what it is), I do Focus on God, and I'm young so I'm still learning a lot along the way. It's not that I put a special focus towards them, but due to personal life experiences, I cant help but have an unconsious hyper-awareness of them. It's left it's "Imprint" on me.


It is ok but why go in adirection which is full of danger ?
What is your view on "Evil". Does True Evil Energies exist in advaita or in hinduism, or is it merely a flawed human concept due to our perceptual limitations?

We humans are complex creatures capable of darkness and light, at any given moment. I know there's creatures that exist on either extreme end of the spectrum.(What we perceive) But is there no In-between or grey area? Does one spirit have to be Purely Benevolent or one Purely Malicious?

Honest Question.

As to why I chosen this path, all I want to do is try to understand them. I know there's a lot of controversy over it depending on the religion or region. I know it's a path not to be taken lightly, I have colleagues, who live well balanced lives with constant interaction with spirits, and their services towards people. So I can only say, it's something definitely not for the average person, it is a path that can take a lifetime of training and knowledge to learn how to properly handle them and not let them consume you in the process.

So in a nutshell, I want to understand them, while in the process help people in the manner, that those specialized in these areas have helped me in my spiritual troubles.


There is a good book written by a very highly placed Government official, "Maine Pari ke paaon dekhe" (I saw the feet of a nymph). Here in this book whatever you say is described vividly and he actually saw the feet of the nymph which was called by a tAntrik in a closed chamber to offer them a feast. This fellow got hooked to this knowledge and wanted to learn the trick of calling beings of other world when he wanted. When the tAntrik learnt this, he laughed wryly and said, "Don't fall in the ditch that I have fallen into. You are asking for poison.". I have some real life stories of some people too whom I closely know who could at some time were able to interact with these beings ... they finally learnt that this road leads to hell and they came out of it.

So, my sincere advice is that you should better stay away from all these. But it is your decision which matters.

OM

If you dont mind sharing some anecdotes I am willing to hear, to compare to my own experiences. I'm open minded enough to compromise how I see things, Like I said I am still learning.

I'm not going to go into specifics details for now, but a few years ago I had a Djinn/Yakshini infatuated by me. She attached herself to me, and it was quite profound, to feel a deep sense of consciousness that was different from my own. I could even write a book on it.

My interactions with her and how she revealed herself to me, was clear as day, almost no different as to how I would interact with a Physical Person. Her having an intimate connection with my Conciousness, she "Opened" my minds up internally, as well as externally. Before that point, I never received such profound visions and intuitions, it amazed me the things I suddenly "knew" about people just by looking at them or "reading" their energy, the things i "saw" around them, and I knew it was all her doing. I couldnt believe it myself until had to ask them, was surprising how accurate I can "dig" stuff up out of them.

I had to do a ton of research to figure out what the hell I was seeing, and the constant stream of sensations I was experiencing. I was going through all sorts of fluctuations emotionally, and mentally. The constant feeling of not being alone, receiving "thoughts" that werent even my own. It wasnt long before I came across the concepts of what a "3rd Eye" was, and the experience of having it opened.

I've had her around me for a full year, and due to some complications that happened with my life, and those around me, many spiritually enlightened as well clairvoyant people have all confirmed for me that she wasnt good to keep around. She's made a big impact on my life, and since she's been "banished",(Complicated Ritual) I cant help but do everything I can to try to understand her kind. She wasn't "evil". She impacted me, and It is because of her That I now believe in God, as she was a Believer as well.

Since that time, since she's been gone, the visions, as well as my keen awareness of these unseen subtle energies have all ceased.

But it'z amazed me, the process in which this happened, from my observations, people who meditate for months, years, or perhaps a lifetime to attempt to gain these "powers", was granted and "given" to me within the span of a month, with no work whatsoever on my part.

I guess if I want that experience again I have to work hard and earn it.

Thank you for your insight.

Blessings.

Spirit Seeker
18 February 2013, 07:21 PM
Namaste NayaSurya, it's a shame you dont post anymore, I was a longtime lurker before I decided to start posting, and read your posts, you seem like a wonderful person with a lot of knowledge to share.

Glad to have you back though even for a little bit.

I'm sorry to hear about the situation that happened with your father, and what he is going through in spirit. Light a White candle for him, and pray for him(or towards him) as much as you can.

Yes those that are recently departed, depending on how spiritually aware they were in life, it's a process to evolve, and get out of the habit of shedding their previous identity. It is ignorance that keeps them. They need to become less attached to this realm.

As for what you brought up "worshipping ghosts" that's also a reason I brought this thread up. I was under the mistakened impression due to how Advaita approaches reality, knowing that from that standpoint the demigods are all different manifestations of Brahman, rather as "individuals", that some can be under the dangerous assumptions that encountering negative spirits they too can be treated as a manifestation of "brahman". As I have seen for myself people fall into that trap.

But right now I understand clearer the Advaitan stance.


P.S.
From what i can understand about the other thing (are we real are they real) above.

People...souls have layers upon us.

This lifetime, this me is a layer.

Those spirits on my recording? Still utterly ignorant, they knew nothing more than they did at their death! This was quite a suprise to me, but it makes sense with Advaita.

You see they are still in that "angry man" mode...still within that skin/layer and still playing out that drama in that personality.

Each layer, becomes removed with sadhana...karma burnt...lots of lessons...lots of Mercy.

Under these layers...Pure Beloved.

The layers not only separate us from our True Selves, but from each other too.

So that's my evolving understanding upon our existence...from what i have seen here.

Which really and truly explains the vast ignorance and vile behaviour of those poor folks below us.

May Beloved Have Mercy upon them.

Hari om <3

This makes sense, and thank you for sharing. May peace always follow you.

Blessings.

Spirit Seeker
19 February 2013, 01:45 AM
Namaste,

Spirits are all real. Shastras say there are 7 lokas and 14 bhuvans. Some above and some below earth. Mostly you can find it in Garuda Purana. May be other knowledgeable members can say something more and give importance.

Spirits are true entities, but if you ask advaita standpoint, you will have to neglect them and do not give importance.

Planes higher than bhu loka (pruthvi loka) are yonis higher than human race like that of devas.

one can definitely communicate with them, but if you are asking from a standpoint of advaita or even dvaita, nothing except God should be given importance.

I too have felt pressure on head, felt them and even saw them. I am talking of higher beings when I was Practising Pranic Healing. Some communicate during meditation, some during healing, etc. But traditional advaita do not give them importance

In bhagavad Gita, Bhagavan Krushna in chapter 9 verse 25 says

The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; but My devotees come to Me.

source: English translation by Swami Sivananda
http://202.3.77.102/acquia/?q=node/27

so it is upto you whom you want to stay with. Sure these things spirits, good and bad, divine, devil, etc exists and so does heaven and hell

The more you take interest in them, the more you will come close in them and be influenced in them.

But then what is your purpose of life? the answer will show you the path.

Aum
IS

Funny you bring that verse up, I just came across it recently as a matter of fact. I dont follow it as "coincidence" ;p

Bhagavad-gītā s 9.25: Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship the ancestors go to the ancestors; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; and those who worship Me will live with Me.

This verse in particular has really went through to me.

I do worship Demigods which are similar to that of the devas in Hinduism, in the carribean we have our own versions of those deitys(I personally believe them to be the same beings) as they too are extensions/manifestations of the ONE God. So Some are anthropomorphic, some are personifications of a Natural Force or Element etc.


Can I ask WHY it is so wrong to have a relationship with God, Advancing towards one's spiritual development, as well as being aware of these beings? Why cant I be with God, AND be with my Jinn Friend(see posts above) too in the next life?

Anyone can answer this, please.

Thank you India for your insight.

Blessings.

NayaSurya
19 February 2013, 02:31 PM
I am sorry to hear about your adventure, but also i feel it must have been meant to be for you to experience it. It was a blessing of sorts to have her near?

I have always been surrounded by folks on the other side. Caring for dying folks for ages gives me probably more than most. But not until 2001 when my Mother died did the things get very different.

A higher sort of Being was coming through...and i believe it was a lesson of this life time and my own karma to remember my previous life and miss this One special, very Beloved Being...most of all.

He's higher, and never breaks the rules. So i may never see Him here, i wish i would.

I don't see anything wrong with you going to your friend if you wish it when your time ends here, because God...is inside your friend too.

But, i will say, I feel that going to these other places to be with your friend will not be a forever place. The only forever place is being dissolved, at least that is what everyone always says.:p

I think this makes sense as the rest of our options would be involving a desire for more time to experience?

I say, as always....Follow your Beloved Heart.

Hari Om<3

Amrut
20 February 2013, 03:00 AM
Funny you bring that verse up, I just came across it recently as a matter of fact. I dont follow it as "coincidence" ;p

Bhagavad-gītā s 9.25: Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship the ancestors go to the ancestors; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; and those who worship Me will live with Me.

This verse in particular has really went through to me.

I do worship Demigods which are similar to that of the devas in Hinduism, in the carribean we have our own versions of those deitys(I personally believe them to be the same beings) as they too are extensions/manifestations of the ONE God. So Some are anthropomorphic, some are personifications of a Natural Force or Element etc.


Can I ask WHY it is so wrong to have a relationship with God, Advancing towards one's spiritual development, as well as being aware of these beings? Why cant I be with God, AND be with my Jinn Friend(see posts above) too in the next life?

Anyone can answer this, please.

Thank you India for your insight.

Blessings.

Namaste,

There is nothing wrong in being connected with demi-gods. you can be even connected with God. What Gita says cannot be questioned, so it is true, as when you meditate on something or stay with someone, you acquire their Gunas.

Rishis did some yagnas for devas (demi-gods), worshipped them or meditated upon them for a boon. What I was saying is from Advaita POV. Advaita does not give importance to them, IF Your one and only GOAL is SELF REALIZATION.

I do not say did not believe or deny their existence. I say, do not give importance. For spiritual progress you may find someone denying anything that you see, as it all comes within Maya, including higher worlds. Your mind remains active and you need to take care of your own body (physical or subtle) to stay in touch. Advaita says us to go beyond maya and it's 3 gunas.

Aum
IS

Spirit Seeker
21 February 2013, 12:53 AM
I am sorry to hear about your adventure, but also i feel it must have been meant to be for you to experience it. It was a blessing of sorts to have her near?

Namaste NayaSurya,

I would say she was a Blessing and a Curse. People often wonder why I would still consider her a friend and miss her after some of the problems she's caused me, but I wouldnt expect anyone to really understand, if they didnt have the original experience or werent observers to the correlation of events that happened. I dont really carry a Narrow Minded Dualism as to the nature of these beings, they are hard to understand, their worlds are mysterious, but we being a part of each other through the attachment, I felt I acheived Higher levels of understanding, which started my spiritual journey for me, I saw things through her eyes as I experienced her, and she as well Experienced me seeing things through my eyes, The experience for her was beneficial for her to connect with a Human in such a Deep Manner, since most aren't sensitive to these beings.

I believe it was probably meant to be also. For a Good portion of my life I was "On the fence" skeptical about God, The Spiritual Realitys etc. I Carried a Cognitive dissonasance and Just surrendered to the thought that "No matter what amazing anecdotes there would be, it is all futile, because there is always a counter argument for every metaphysical claim there is."

I convinced myself I was incapable in accepting a god, or anything metaphysical in general. The only way I could have allowed myself to believe and accept was experiencing something metaphysical so the extraordinary to the point that it would be irrefutable for me to believe otherwise. The universe must have granted my wish, if such a random spirit took interest in me, and was "Up-Front" pushy, and all in my face about her existence. lol:)




Namaste,

There is nothing wrong in being connected with demi-gods. you can be even connected with God. What Gita says cannot be questioned, so it is true, as when you meditate on something or stay with someone, you acquire their Gunas.

Rishis did some yagnas for devas (demi-gods), worshipped them or meditated upon them for a boon. What I was saying is from Advaita POV. Advaita does not give importance to them, IF Your one and only GOAL is SELF REALIZATION.

I do not say did not believe or deny their existence. I say, do not give importance. For spiritual progress you may find someone denying anything that you see, as it all comes within Maya, including higher worlds. Your mind remains active and you need to take care of your own body (physical or subtle) to stay in touch. Advaita says us to go beyond maya and it's 3 gunas.

Aum
IS

Namaste India,

Oh no, dont take it the wrong way, You and Devotee helped me understand Advaita, so I now have a better grasp then I did before. I wasnt implicating that you dont acknowledge these beings.

What is Gunas?

I forgot to paste the commentary of that verse, I found off a website.

http://vedabase.net/bg/9/25/

PURPORT

"If one has any desire to go to the moon, the sun or any other planet, one can attain the desired destination by following specific Vedic principles recommended for that purpose, such as the process technically known as darśa-paurṇamāsī. These are vividly described in the fruitive activities portion of the Vedas, which recommends a specific worship of demigods situated on different heavenly planets. Similarly, one can attain the Pitā planets by performing a specific yajña. Similarly, one can go to many ghostly planets and become a Yakṣa, Rakṣa or Piśāca. Piśāca worship is called "black arts" or "black magic." There are many men who practice this black art, and they think that it is spiritualism, but such activities are completely materialistic. Similarly, a pure devotee, who worships the Supreme Personality of Godhead only, achieves the planets of Vaikuṇṭha and Kṛṣṇaloka without a doubt. It is very easy to understand through this important verse that if by simply worshiping the demigods one can achieve the heavenly planets, or by worshiping the Pitās achieve the Pitā planets, or by practicing the black arts achieve the ghostly planets, why can the pure devotee not achieve the planet of Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu? Unfortunately many people have no information of these sublime planets where Kṛṣṇa and Viṣṇu live, and because they do not know of them they fall down. Even the impersonalists fall down from the brahmajyoti. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is therefore distributing sublime information to the entire human society to the effect that by simply chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra one can become perfect in this life and go back home, back to Godhead."

Referring to my question, It seems people who practice the things I do, they refer to it as "Black Magick" or "Spiritual Materialism." I'm so used to having my cultural practices called "Black Magick" by uninformed outsiders. I highly respect the Hindu Religion and It's teachings, but I'm not sure what to think of that commentary on that verse, if In fact many practicing hindu's do share that same opinion or perception.

I can understand some of where the author is coming from. He obviously believes that working with spirits is a materially-focused path. Basically, I believe that it CAN be, but it doesn't have to be. If you are working with spirits in order to reach higher states of consciousness/energy, then I don't really see how that is materialism. Especially if you have sacrificed a lot of your material life, and stopped doing a lot of physical-based things in order to reach greater heights in spirituality. If someone abuses their powers or uses spirits for selfish reasons and gains, or to harm others, then yes I would consider that "Black Arts" or "Material Spirituality". Either way I think such practices are completely separate from however way one is seeking God. Which is why I asked, what is wrong with it, and how does it interfere with spiritual development or Seeking God? Unless I am missing something.

Thank you again.

shiv.somashekhar
21 February 2013, 12:14 PM
... Either way I think such practices are completely separate from however way one is seeking God. Which is why I asked, what is wrong with it, and how does it interfere with spiritual development or Seeking God? Unless I am missing something.

Thank you again.

What you are missing is the fact that there exist countless different views all under one label of Hinduism - which is obviously highly misleading to many people. I suppose, it is inevitable that each Hindu believes his own viewpoint is the definitive, authoritative Hindu position.

The Gita (or for that matter, any other text) is not the final authority for all Hindus - again a point missed by many people, who are accustomed to seeing religion as having a central holy scripture. Hinduism does not conform to this model and I believe, understanding this will answer your questions.

Amrut
21 February 2013, 12:32 PM
Namaste India,

Oh no, dont take it the wrong way, You and Devotee helped me understand Advaita, so I now have a better grasp then I did before. I wasnt implicating that you dont acknowledge these beings.

What is Gunas?

I forgot to paste the commentary of that verse, I found off a website.

http://vedabase.net/bg/9/25/

PURPORT

"If one has any desire to go to the moon, the sun or any other planet, one can attain the desired destination by following specific Vedic principles recommended for that purpose, such as the process technically known as darśa-paurṇamāsī. These are vividly described in the fruitive activities portion of the Vedas, which recommends a specific worship of demigods situated on different heavenly planets. Similarly, one can attain the Pitā planets by performing a specific yajña. Similarly, one can go to many ghostly planets and become a Yakṣa, Rakṣa or Piśāca. Piśāca worship is called "black arts" or "black magic." There are many men who practice this black art, and they think that it is spiritualism, but such activities are completely materialistic. Similarly, a pure devotee, who worships the Supreme Personality of Godhead only, achieves the planets of Vaikuṇṭha and Kṛṣṇaloka without a doubt. It is very easy to understand through this important verse that if by simply worshiping the demigods one can achieve the heavenly planets, or by worshiping the Pitās achieve the Pitā planets, or by practicing the black arts achieve the ghostly planets, why can the pure devotee not achieve the planet of Kṛṣṇa or Viṣṇu? Unfortunately many people have no information of these sublime planets where Kṛṣṇa and Viṣṇu live, and because they do not know of them they fall down. Even the impersonalists fall down from the brahmajyoti. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is therefore distributing sublime information to the entire human society to the effect that by simply chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra one can become perfect in this life and go back home, back to Godhead."

Referring to my question, It seems people who practice the things I do, they refer to it as "Black Magick" or "Spiritual Materialism." I'm so used to having my cultural practices called "Black Magick" by uninformed outsiders. I highly respect the Hindu Religion and It's teachings, but I'm not sure what to think of that commentary on that verse, if In fact many practicing hindu's do share that same opinion or perception.

I can understand some of where the author is coming from. He obviously believes that working with spirits is a materially-focused path. Basically, I believe that it CAN be, but it doesn't have to be. If you are working with spirits in order to reach higher states of consciousness/energy, then I don't really see how that is materialism. Especially if you have sacrificed a lot of your material life, and stopped doing a lot of physical-based things in order to reach greater heights in spirituality. If someone abuses their powers or uses spirits for selfish reasons and gains, or to harm others, then yes I would consider that "Black Arts" or "Material Spirituality". Either way I think such practices are completely separate from however way one is seeking God. Which is why I asked, what is wrong with it, and how does it interfere with spiritual development or Seeking God? Unless I am missing something.

Thank you again.

Namaste,

I am not taking is wrongly. What I am saying is that from Advaita POV, the practices like you mention like spirit contact are not advisable. Why? The reason is that Advaita means non-duality.

So if you are in contact with someone from other world, no matter how good the intention may be, you still are doing karma, precisely sakam karma. You wish to do good of world. Advaita says that all 3 gunas - sattva, rajas and tamas are doshas.

So that would mean that even a noble intention has also to be quit, as everything is inside maya. Unlike other paths or belief systems, Advaita considers every action to be dropped. This is because you are none of these. All you have to do is realize your true nature - Brahman. For that you will have to rise above maya. One cannot live without work, so only do work that is necessary. But later on when one is mature, you need physically or mentally or energetically serve your country or world. Even helping others is a desire. Vivek Chudamani says, destruction of desires is nothing but liberation.

All you do depends upon your goal

If your only goal is self realization, then avoid the contacts with higher world
IF your intention is to serve humanity, there are many new-age systems connected with energy which do the same.


But the question is - do you get self realization by passing through it? My answer is - very very difficult. As you progress, mind becomes pure. So if you have only one desire - to serve, then mind grasps it so strongly that when time comes to quit that desire, yo wont be able to do it, as you have given too much importance and have spend years. Trust me, I have passed through these phase. It took so much time to become neutral and neglect that I now wish I should have never practiced it. But while practicing it, I was not feeling that I am doing wrong and that everything is right. But this is the case only if you wish to walk the spiritual path the advaita way. I do not know about other paths.

Hope this helps.

Aum

Asi
03 June 2013, 10:44 AM
Namaste Spirit Seeker,

Advaita is a difficult subject to understand and this has to be kept in mind before trying to give one's own explanation on "What Advaita should be". I will give you some examples :

a) You take a piece of diamond and a piece of iron. Are they two or same ? Diamond is diamond and iron is iron. So, at this level, these are certainly two things. Now let's go at a level where you can't find a difference between a particle and a wave ... i.e. let's go at lowest of sub-atomic level ... even below quarks and anti-quarks, if possible. It has been proved that matter can be converted into energy. As all types of energies are basically the same, we can safely conclude that at the lowest level, all matter whether Iron or diamond must have the same essence from which it should be made up of. Otherwise too, if go reverse i.e. converting energy into matter, theoretically it is possible to create any matter from the same energy. Even if stop at energy and say that it is the substratum of everything around us ... we end up seeing everything in this world as essentially the same energy.

So, though the reality is that everything is Consciousness ... in absence of any valid instrument to prove it, we agree to the assertion that "Everything is nothing but energy" and proceed with this. So, what do we get ?

"All Matter and energy are essentially same thing."

However, it doesn't mean that the distinction has disappeared at the gross level. Diamond, Iron and Energy have their own characteristics at the gross level.

b) For understanding Advaita, the above example is barely sufficient due to its severe limitations as we are unable to deal with Consciousness directly. Advaita says that Everything is Consciousness. Consciousness is Brahman. Now, that said, it is not that Consciousness has partly converted into humans, partly into stones, partly into trees etc. No, the conversion has been Only apparently. What does it mean ?

For understanding this let's first have a look on this invocation verse of IsAvAsya Upanishad :

"Om purnam-adah purnam-idam purnaat purnam-udacyate. purnasya purnam-aadaaya, purnam-eva-avashishyate "

===> That is infinite, this is infinite; From That infinite this infinite comes. From That infinite, (when) this infinite is taken out; balance remains as infinite.

"That" in the above verse is used for Brahman and "This" is used for this universe. So, the verse says that Brahman is limitless and from it is born this universe which again is limitless. After this Infinite Universe comes out from the Infinite Brahman, the Infinite Brahman remains.

So, everything is Brahman and "Nothing" has really converted into anything else i.e. there was Brahman to begin with and Brahman alone remains at the end. How is it possible ? Are we able to understand what it says ? It is difficult. Why ? We are going to deal with how Consciousness behaves and we have hardly any idea of how consciousness acts. The verse says something which seems impossibility but this is only due of our lack of knowledge on how Consciousness behaves.

c) The Dream analogy :

By analysing our dreams, we can understand the above verse though it won't by what actually happens. However, our purpose will be served by analysing the Dream-phenomenon.

In the phenomenon of dreaming :

a) There is only One Consciousness i.e. of the Dreamer. There is no other consciousness taking part in the dreaming process.

b) While dreaming many characters are created and a story line too is created which runs the dream. The various characters acting in the dream i.e. all the persons whether friends or foes, girls or boys, men or women, stones or pearls, tress or birds ... everything is creation of Dreamer's consciousness. There is no other material which changes into the characters of the dream and there is no other cause, so we can safely say that Dreamer is the material and efficient cause of the whole dream world.

Please note here that every character in the dream acts on his/her/its own. The dreamer has its separate entity in the dream which may not be exactly as he really is and he or even the dreamer don't know how a dream character is going to behave the next moment (that shows that the actions of the dream characters are not pre-decided by the dreamer). There may be some characters created in the dream which could not be friends of the dreamer (so, creation can act against its own creator apparently) and yet those characters are created and act on their own. Anything cannot act on its own independently unless it has a consciousness of its own. Therefore, every character in the dream must have its own Consciousness otherwise their actions should have been known to the dreamer in advance who is the Consciousness behind the whole set of characters in the dream. But we all know that the dreamer doesn't how one dream character is going to do the next moment in the dream.

Now, let's analyse the dream phenomenon :
**********
i) There can be no doubt that there is Actually only one Consciousness i.e. that of the Dreamer. There is no consciousness which is added to or subtracted from teh Dreamer's Consciousness i.e. before dream, during the dream, the Consciousness of the dreamer remains the same.

However, though it was One Consciousness alone to begin with and one alone remained during the dreaming session and also after the dream ended, there were many separate consciousnesses perceived during the dream. This gives us an idea of unique characteristic of Consciousness i.e. Without being actually divided into many, one Consciousness can give rise to perception of many consciousness apparently. . This is called ChidAbhAsa (phenomenon of reflected consciousness) characteristic of Consciousness or Brahman.

Now, armed with this knowledge, we can answer all your questions on Spiritual world :

a)

===> You are right. However, from Absolute point of view, everything including you is just like a dream-character which has the Consciousness of the Dreamer as the substratum. The Spirt is as real as you are. At the Absolute level, both you and the spirit are unreal. Only Brahman exists.

b)

===> True. Not because Brahman is formless … Brahman is neither formless nor with form … it is beyond all mental constructs. The Perceived Jeeva is Brahman in absolute sense and the perceiver i.e. you too are Brahman. This is possible due to special power of Consciousness to see multitude within itself (as in dreaming state) and still remaining the same. This unique power of Brahman is called MAyA. Brahman can be with this power and also without power i.e. this power can be manifest and also unmanifest. When this power is unmanifest i.e. lies within Brahman, it is Brahman's Absolute state which alone is the sole reality and is called the "Fourth State" of Brahman. When this power is manifest … three entities apparently comes into being : God (the third state of Brahman), The Waking state (i.e. this manifest world), the Dreaming state or the Subtle world which is the world of all of us before birth and after death.

You question is whether the spirit to whom you are talking is real or unreal and just a mental construct. In this question, you have assumed that "You are real". Now, that means (by taking that assumption) that you are speaking from the Waking state (Gross world state) and from that state you are real and also the spirit is real. If you say that "I am Brahman" and the "Spirit is Brahman" … these statements are from the Absolute state. Both the statements are correct as long as you keep seeing from one state. However, you will be in serious difficulty to understand things when you mix up the phenomena of two different states. From the Absolute state, the spirit to whom you are interacting is a mental construct (of Brahman and not yours as an individual) but so you are. You cannot say : "I am real" and "the spirit to whom I am talking is unreal".

OM


This whole post was a refreshing read.

Could you please tell me from where did you get this information?