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satay
07 February 2013, 02:06 AM
Namaste,
I have been reading the 'Sri Ramanuja Gita Bhasya' published by Sri Ramkrishna Math and I have a few questions that I am hoping someone can clarify.

In chapter 18, specifically in verses 14 and onwards there is a concept of 'an agent' or 'karta'. It is stated in verses 16 and 17 that

16: he who sees only the self as the agent on account of uncultivated understanding he of wicked mind, does not see at all and,

17: he who is free from the notion 'I am the doer' and whose understanding is not tainted slays not though he slays all these men nor is he bound.

Further there is a discussion of 'knowledge, object of knowledge and the knower.

In verse 19, it is stated that knowledge, act and the agent are declared in the science of Gunas to be of three kinds according to the difference in the Gunas and lord Krishna then proceeds to talk about these separately from verse 20 to 28.

Previously in verses 13 and 14 the bhasya gives a purport explaining that 'supreme self' alone is the agent working through body.

Thus when Sri Krishna talks about 'niyatam...' The obligatory act in verse 23 and the classification of all acts into sattvika, rajasika etc, is he talking about the 'acts' performed by the 'supreme self' working through the body?

What's throwing me off is that in 26 to 28 there is discussion of classification of ' the agent' itself into sattvika, rajasika etc.

My confusion is this: who is this classification of talked about in verse 26 to 28? Of the individual self or the supreme self since supreme self is the only agent/karta and the individual self seems to be only the observer or knower?

My underlying confusion is about who is actually performing the acts, the individual self or the supreme self? Or both? If individual self is not the doer and not actually doing anything then what is his role?

smaranam
07 February 2013, 02:46 AM
|| om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ||

Namaste

1. [param]AtmA - the Supreme Self does not act.
2. jiva, a fraction of His higher energy (parA prakRti), in her purest form, does not act.
3. PrakRti - the lower energy(shakti) of paramAtmA, does the work, based on the three guNas.
4. [param]AtmA being the antaryAmi, along with the aparA shakti, gives the preraNA or buddhi (inspiration) to the individual IF the individual is in any way trying to reach the higher One to figure out decisions.
5. Actually all actions are a product of the combinations of the material modes of nature - triguNa - sattva, raja, tama
6. Each individual living entity has a certain combination/ratio of this which may keep fluctuating.

*7. The jiva is the Supreme Lord's marginal potency (tatastha shakti) - which has a tendency to
i) either be the pure free observer standing apart, OR
ii) to get entangled in the three guNas and mistakenly think "I am the doer"

The whole idea is to get rid of ahaMkAr (false ego) , so as to stay on the spiritual side of the fence.

WHAT IS THE JIVA TO DO? Observe the lower prakRti and the guNa-meter:
Has tamas increased lately?

Step 1: Know that "the person did such and such" owing to the rise in tamoguNa. Do not get excited, annoyed, depressed. Stay calm. You are not the guNa (modes). NistraiguNa bhavArjunah. "Get beyond and be without the three modes, Arjun."

Step 2: How can sattva guNa be elevated in this body?
* Refer to the scriptures - shAstra. KRshNa says when one is not sure what is to be done, go by the shAstra.
* Choose the right actions, right food, right lifestyle, right attitude for this body.
* Go inwards & pray to the antaryAmi (indweller) paramAtmA for insight into steps to take, improve. Watch. Monitor. He gives instinct, intuition, buddhi. Pray for good instincts and sadbuddhi.

Has sattva increased ? Is this what the guNa-meter is showing? Don't be proud or get puffed-up "wow i am so good!" You are not the guNa.

What is the jiva to do? Keep reminding herself. I am not the doer. The guNas are acting, interacting. By good fortune, by the grace of the Supreme Lord and saints, i have good thoughts (sadbuddhi) which makes this body act appropriately, learn shastra, whatever.


Wrong thinking: self-loathing, self-cursing, self-praising, vanity, self-pity, going in circles of emotional turmoil or being out of touch with reality owing to false vanity (i am so good, i did this and that), being unproductive, self-destructive, etc.
Because again, you are NOT the modes of nature (guNas). They can be monitor with the grace, guidance and sanctioning from paramAtmA.

The Supreme Lord is HRshikesha, the controller of the senses (reigns). By His grace and bhakti, we can also be in control with His help and guidance.

_/\_

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~

smaranam
07 February 2013, 03:04 AM
Also, regarding the reference to asking Arjun to do his kshatriya duty:

If Arjun is nistraiguNa (without the 3 modes) and guNAteeta (beyond the 3 modes) then he will not think he is killing people in war, on the battlefield. (becs a. he is not the doer b. svadharma == akarma)

The key here is to be in KRshNa-consciousness i.e. in consciousness of and aligned perfectly with the Will of the Supreme Lord. In that bhAvanA (consciousness).

Arjun participates and does his prescribed duty because KRshNa instructs him to.
BG 18.66 sarva dharma parityajya mAmekam sharaNam vraja
aham tvam sarva pApebhyo mokshAshmi mA suchah
Abandon all principles [of your own, or heard, learned] and simply surrender to Me [ stay one-pointedly aligned to Me. buddhi-yoga. Put all your trust and faith (shraddhA & nishThA) in Me. ]
I shall deliver you from all sins, do not fear.


Arjun is not even thinking of svadharma Vs. pardharma. He is simply following the Supreme Lord.
At the end of Gita, Arjun is nirguN, guNAteet, one-pointedly devoted to KRshNa, and without letting his intellect (buddhi) run in N directions (one-pointedness, buddi-yogam) , he simply did as KRshNa adviced.
Who is KRshNa? The [param]AtmA - Supreme Self
Who is Arjun? The jiv[AtmA] - individual soul

Wherever the KrshNa-arjun pair is found, peace, knowledge, oppulence will prevail...

_/\_

[I]Shri KRshNa govinda hare murAre he nAth nArAyaNa vAsudeva

wundermonk
07 February 2013, 08:02 AM
Excellent! I have both Shankara's as well as Ramanuja's commentary on the BG from the same publication. So, conversing will be easy.


My underlying confusion is about who is actually performing the acts, the individual self or the supreme self? Or both? If individual self is not the doer and not actually doing anything then what is his role?

The answer to your question is the last paragraph of page 559.

The purvapakshin argues that if the agent is the Supreme Self, then the individual jiva is absolved of having to do any action prescribed by the Vedas. The response on that page is that the individual self Itself, of Its own free will, is responsible for activity, since the Supreme Self abiding within causes It to act only by granting His permission.

A group of 100 people may move a stone. They are both together responsible as well as individually responsible for the action.

Yet another response to this is from Brahmasutras 2:1:34-36 when it deals with the Problem of Suffering. God's role is that of a common cause like rainfall. Rainfall is absolutely essential for grown of crops. But a seed of one type gives rise to a plant of its own type purely because of its own internal tendencies. It does NOT give rise to a plant of a random/different type.

Amrut
07 February 2013, 10:24 AM
Excellent! I have both Shankara's as well as Ramanuja's commentary on the BG from the same publication. So, conversing will be easy.

The answer to your question is the last paragraph of page 559.

The purvapakshin argues that if the agent is the Supreme Self, then the individual jiva is absolved of having to do any action prescribed by the Vedas. The response on that page is that the individual self Itself, of Its own free will, is responsible for activity, since the Supreme Self abiding within causes It to act only by granting His permission.

A group of 100 people may move a stone. They are both together responsible as well as individually responsible for the action.

Yet another response to this is from Brahmasutras 2:1:34-36 when it deals with the Problem of Suffering. God's role is that of a common cause like rainfall. Rainfall is absolutely essential for grown of crops. But a seed of one type gives rise to a plant of its own type purely because of its own internal tendencies. It does NOT give rise to a plant of a random/different type.

NOTE: Though this is a 5 page reply, please read it slowly with patience ( I hope you manage to reach end ;) . The more I try to edit it to trip it, I end up adding more info to it)

What you say is right.

I will further say something on this (from Shankar bhashya)


16: he who sees only the self as the agent on account of uncultivated understanding he of wicked mind, does not see at all and,

17: he who is free from the notion 'I am the doer' and whose understanding is not tainted slays not though he slays all these men nor is he bound.

First of all there is (in hindi) - Shabdo kI mArAmArI - Fight of the words. One word may convey different meaning than we generally think.

To understand verse no 16, we will have to understand verse 14 and 15.

14: There are 5 causes for doing karma.
15: By body mind and soul, if one does karma according to shastra-updesha or opposite to shastra-updesha (adharam), for that these 5 causes are responsible.

In this statements, if you contemplate, the statement is said in shakshi bhava - meaning form standpoint of observer.

e.g. in vivekchudamani, it says that, if you you soot an arrow at tiger, but later, an opinion arises in your intellect that - this is not tiger but cow, then now you cannot stop the arrow.

This sloka was referring to prarabhdha, but we will not go deep into it.

What I want you to understand from which standpoint this line in blue is said - an opinion arises in your intellect.

It does not say that - if one realizes that it's cow and not tiger.

Spotted the difference.

It's said as an observer. Shankaracharya says as an observer of Intellect. He sees that - an opinion arises in intellect.

Similarly, in Jnana kand (chapters 13-18), it's said from standpoint of observer.

All gunas are causes and you observe that they are causes, you do not mix with them, but rather separate from them.

Now, lets come back to verse 14

14: It says that there are 5 causes for doing karma.

These 5 causes (kAraNa) are:

1. AadhAra (sharIra) - body
2. kartA - (ahankAra) - Ego
3. Mind, intellect, 5 Gyanendriyas and 5 karmendriyas
4. 5 pranas: Reasons due to which various movements and other kriyas are possible.
5. devas (demi-gods) controlling 5 prANa.

e.g

gross body = Pruthvi
Ego = Rudra
skin = vAyu (air)
eyes = surya

Also the sanskaras of past are called as daivam.

All these are the causes and Atman is observer.

So if you combine verses 14, 15, 16 and 17,

It will be

14: There are 5 causes for doing karma.

15: By body mind and soul, if one does karma according to shastra or opposite to shastra (adharam), for that these 5 causes are responsible.

16: Regarding Karma, even though these 5 causes are reason, due to impure intellect, the one who sees that (knows that) it is asanga-Atman [1] is the one who is doing work, such a person with impure (stained) intellect does not know anything.
(In short: this person is still in kartA bhAva.)

17: In whose antakarNa [2], 'there is no such bhAva like - 'I Am kartA (Doer), and the one who's intellect is not {identified / merged / associated} [3] in karma, that purUSha (person) , instead of killing all people (lakhs of people) does not himself gets killed and he is not bound by pApa (sin) i.e. not bound by sinful karma.


[1] asanga-Atman

a-sanga. sanga means association. a-sanga means non-association. So atman or brahman is not associated, involved, merged, with all the causes of doing karma. So Atman cannot do any karma. The person one with Atman or in atmic consciousness will also not be associated with causes of karma and hence karma. Since the person is not associated with karma, he/she iis an observer. He/she is in a-karma bhAva. He/She doe not have kartA bhAva and so is not responsible of any karma that happens through the body or maya or prikriti and hence he/she is not bound by it. Hence not a trace of blood touches him/her. Fruits of karma (papa or punya) cannot touch him/her.

[2] antakarNa
antakarNa can be split in to - mana, buddhi, chitta, ahankAra.

[3] {identified / merged / associated} These words are not said but implied. So in word to word you may not find them. But they help understand the meaning.

In simple short words of ashtAvakra gItA, a person who sees karma even in a-karma is a-jnani and a person who sees a-karma in karma is jivan mukta.

--- seeing karma in a-karma and seeing a-karma in karma.

I hope this clears out. I humbly request you to please read chapter 18 again. I think, all verses are tightly connected with each other like a chain.

---

(Note: All verses are translated from Gujarati to English)

---

More details:

sloka 19:

GYAtA: Knower,
GYAna: Knowledge,
GYeya vastu: Object of knowledge

encourage (prerNA) karma {and with the 'sanga' of these 3 (triputi)}, activity in karma takes place. kartA (doer), kAraNa (cause) {and} kriyA (action), all three, are aashraya (aadhaara - base, support) of karma.

19: knower, knowledge and object of knowledge encourage karma, and with the help of these three action takes place. karma is done by the aadhara (support) of the three - doer, cause, and action (of doing).

Verses 26-28 do tell about types of karma.

Action (karma) is the grossest form of desire and desire is subtlest form of action. desires cannot be seen, but it's manifestation i.e. karma - action, can be seen. So by judging action, one can judge desire or guna.

there are 3 types of Gunas - sattva, rajas and tamas. These are explained in slokas 26-28 :)

---

In short, atman (sat-chit-anand atman), brahman, para-brahman, para-atman, mula-brahman mean one and the same thing,

Sri Ramakrishna says, that

different people call water with different names - Hindus call it as jala, musalmans call it pani, christian call it water, but they are talking of same thing.

---

Advaita is very difficult to grasp, so some great saints and acharyas mention jiva or jiva-atman as atman. They call nirakara sat-chit-ananda atman as para-atman, just to separate it from atman.

This is because, i think, that in daily life, when we call atman, laymen thinks of ghost, jiva, etc and not God. But if we say brahman, then we will not think of ghost. same with para-atman.

these are just different words conveying same meaning.

---

It's not agent of action, but causes of action. Please read in mother tongue. Enlgish sometimes makes mess. There can be anuvAda, but bhAvAnuvAda (bhavanuvada) may be missed.

---

Lets take an e.g. given by Sri Ramana Maharshi

Atman is a screen and the projection is maya. no matter if there is a bloody scene in the movie, not even a trace of blood can stain screen cloth.

---

Maya has 3 gunas, and so everything that is under it also has them in various permutation and combination. Maya rests on atman. Atman is aadhara upon which creation rests and plays. Atman itself does not play or move.

---

Sri Ramana Maharshi says,

Canvas (cloth used for drawing) is atman and the painting is the body. Painting is the dis-ease

---

In brief: Atman is a shakshi, like sun, in it's presence entire eco-system works. Sun does not do anything. Maya is prikriti. It has 3 gunas. Ego retains individuality and so one is trapped in it. Due to ego and mind (attachment), one thinks that he/she is doing karma, but actually it is jiva that does karma and not atman. We are not jiva, but Shiva (atman)

Jiva = sukshma sharira = ego = antakaran = mind --> all convey same meaning.

If there is no ego, there is no mind and vice versa.

Gita starts with the hands of blind (moha-andha) and ends with Arjuna's statement - that my moha is destroyed (nasTo moHa) and I know who I am.

---

Darshan = 'to know' and not 'to see'. That is why in Gita Bhagavan says, one who 'knows' my (purpose of) birth and karma, which are divine, is not separate than me.

Bhagavan also says, out of 4 bhaktas, Jnani bhakta is my atman, meaning Jnani bhakta (Self Realized soul) is the most dear to me.

Jnani is not different from Brahman.

What matters is where our consciousness is - waking, dream, deep sleep or in turiya (atman sthiti / atma-tatva).

EDIT:

a-jnani sees, Jnani knows (is conscious of) - Jnani is not person or ego or sharira. Jnani is consciousness = brahman = sat-chit=atman. Mind of Jnani is Brahman itself

---

Karma done with karta bhava ripes frutis, but karma done with a-karta bhava does not ripe fruit (for the shakshi-observer)

---

I hope you are getting my point.

A request: Please re-read chapter 18, preferably in your mother tongue, or in hindi for better translation

chapter 18 is the last chapter, it summarizes all 17 chapters, and gives conclusion.

philosoraptor
07 February 2013, 11:35 AM
Namaste,
I have been reading the 'Sri Ramanuja Gita Bhasya' published by Sri Ramkrishna Math and I have a few questions that I am hoping someone can clarify.

In chapter 18, specifically in verses 14 and onwards there is a concept of 'an agent' or 'karta'. It is stated in verses 16 and 17 that

16: he who sees only the self as the agent on account of uncultivated understanding he of wicked mind, does not see at all and,

17: he who is free from the notion 'I am the doer' and whose understanding is not tainted slays not though he slays all these men nor is he bound.

Further there is a discussion of 'knowledge, object of knowledge and the knower.

In verse 19, it is stated that knowledge, act and the agent are declared in the science of Gunas to be of three kinds according to the difference in the Gunas and lord Krishna then proceeds to talk about these separately from verse 20 to 28.

Previously in verses 13 and 14 the bhasya gives a purport explaining that 'supreme self' alone is the agent working through body.

Thus when Sri Krishna talks about 'niyatam...' The obligatory act in verse 23 and the classification of all acts into sattvika, rajasika etc, is he talking about the 'acts' performed by the 'supreme self' working through the body?

What's throwing me off is that in 26 to 28 there is discussion of classification of ' the agent' itself into sattvika, rajasika etc.

My confusion is this: who is this classification of talked about in verse 26 to 28? Of the individual self or the supreme self since supreme self is the only agent/karta and the individual self seems to be only the observer or knower?

My underlying confusion is about who is actually performing the acts, the individual self or the supreme self? Or both? If individual self is not the doer and not actually doing anything then what is his role?

Namaste. Excellent questions!

In regards to the last question, Sri U. Ve. Velukkudi Krishnan Swami, a well-known traveling Sri Vaishnava scholar and preacher often noted that when the gItA is saying "you are not the doer," what it is really saying is "you are not an *independent* doer." In other words, the jIva is a dependent-doer, because for it to "do" anything, four other factors are required - the body, the mind and motor-organs, the life-airs (prANa-s), and paramAtmA (see gItA 18.14-15). So the answer to your question is that the individual self performs actions, but always in conjunction with these other four factors, and thus is in one sense a doer, and in another sense a non-doer. Now, when verse 16 says that he is a fool who sees only the Self (jIvAtman) as the doer, the sense of it is that the wise one understands that the paramAtmA, who supports the body, sense, all of prakRiti, etc must give His consent for any actions which the jIvAtman wishes to perform out of its own free will. The foolish person does not appreciate his dependence on paramAtmA - he thinks he is in control of his own body without any outside agency actuating his desires and translating them into physical actions.

Note the application of this principle here: if the warrior understands that his very body and senses are all supported by the paramAtmA, and thus it is paramAtmA who must give His consent for any actions the jIva-as-warrior wishes to perform, then it follows that if he fights the battle according to the direction of paramAtmA, then he is not an independent agent who will accrue sinful reaction but rather is merely acting according to His direction.

The "agent" being talked about in verses 26-28 is the jIvAtma, since paramAtmA can never be sAttvik, rAjAsik, tamAsik. This seems contradictory if one does not understand the interdependence between the different players in performing action. However, since the jIva is a doer, but only in a dependent sense, he can be thought of as an agent in a conventional sense, and that is the sense in which verses 26-28 are discussing.

As an aside, I found a free bhagavad gita e-book with translation and commentary according to Ramanuja's system done by Sri U.Ve. Ranga Ramanuja Swami, an Australian devotee. It's available as a free download, and the commentary is very crisp, more like an abridged version of Raamaanuja's commentary, but you might find it helpful in understanding the unabridged commentary translated by Swami Adidevananda.

http://yajurvedaustralasia-resources.info/downloads/yoga-sastra/srimad-bhagavad-gita-with-gita-bhashya-of-bhagavad-ramanuja-acarya/

satay
07 February 2013, 04:08 PM
namaste and thank you for the replies.

I have to re read verses 14 to 16 as some of you have suggested.

My own thoughts about this particular Bhasya are leaning towards what Philosolaptor and indiaspirituality has said and what wundermonk has implied i.e. the jiva is the doer but a dependent one. I think to keep consistent with the bhasya this is how one has to understand it.

That said, as we can see even on this thread there is a difference of understanding who is actually doing something and who is inactive observer e.g. smaranam is saying that it is only prakrti that is the doer. In that case both param atma and jiva are simply observers then? I should dare to say that this understanding is not consistent with what sri ramanuja is saying. Also, if prakri is the doer, why does jiva have to suffer or benefit through this body for the actions of the prakri?

satay
07 February 2013, 04:10 PM
namaste,
Thanks for the link but link to download the pdf is not working once you get to the download page. Do you have the pdf? Could you please email that to me at karmic_hindu@yahoo.com?



As an aside, I found a free bhagavad gita e-book with translation and commentary according to Ramanuja's system done by Sri U.Ve. Ranga Ramanuja Swami, an Australian devotee. It's available as a free download, and the commentary is very crisp, more like an abridged version of Raamaanuja's commentary, but you might find it helpful in understanding the unabridged commentary translated by Swami Adidevananda.

http://yajurvedaustralasia-resources.info/downloads/yoga-sastra/srimad-bhagavad-gita-with-gita-bhashya-of-bhagavad-ramanuja-acarya/

wundermonk
07 February 2013, 09:23 PM
Also, if prakri is the doer, why does jiva have to suffer or benefit through this body for the actions of the prakri?

Firstly, nothing that emanates from God or is spiritually equivalent to God can suffer/benefit. Even in Ramanuja's reading, (and in all schools of Hindu philosophy), trouble comes to the self because it identifies itself with the non-self (prakriti).

Next, what transmigrates is the sukshma sharira which is in any case a sheath over jiva (as it were). So, the jiva transmigrates only in so far as it is still covered by nescience or it still identifies itself with Prakriti.

Next, agency implies change but the self is immutable.

So, the self, in its essential nature, is NOT the agent. Agency accrues to it only insofar as it is still covered by prakriti. Agency is of the essential nature of prakriti. Prakriti is constantly changing/evolving/acting.

Note that even free will, in Vedanta, is of prakriti and its closeness to the purusha. The trifecta of Buddhi, Ahamkara and manas give rise to thought, will, resolve, etc.

devotee
07 February 2013, 10:18 PM
Namaste,

Who is the doer ? The answer is Prakriti. The Purusha or Atman is not the doer. However, Prakriti cannot act on its own. "Desire" (one of vikaars) arising in Purusha brings Purusha to Prakriti and it makes Prakriti to act in such a way so as to fulfill the desire of Purusha.

Purusha being tinged with 'desire' forgets its True Nature and identifies itself with the Prakriti and gives rise to Jeeva and owns the doership wrongly. This wrong identification causes Jeeva being bound to the fruits of Karma and keeps him bound to the Prakriti.

*******

Lord Krishna has said a number of times in Bhagwad Gita that "one" (who actually is Purusha/Atman) is not the doer but the Prakriti. The KartA (doer), Karana (the instrument to carry out work) are both in Prakriti. Let' see this truth being reflected by these verses too in BG :

a) Ahamkaar vimudhatma kartAham iti manyate ==> The deluded soul due to Ahamkaar assumes " I am the doer". (BG 3.27)
b) Shareerasthopi Kaunteya na karoti na lipyate ( BG 13.31) ===> though dwelling in the body, in fact it (AtmAn) does nothing, nor gets tainted..
c) He who sees that all actions are performed in everyway by nature (Prakriti) and the Self as the non-doer, he alone verily sees. (BG 13.29)
d) However, that who knows the reality of things, must believe that he does nothing, even though seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, eating or drinking, walking, sleeping, breathing, speaking, answering the calls of nature, grasping, and opening or closing the eyes, holding that it is the senses alone that are moving among their objects. (BG 5.8)

That is why it is necessary to cultivate dispassion and detachment from worldly actions and their fruits. Once the Jeeva is successful in removing the vikaars like samkalpa, desire, fear, delusion ... the glue of these vikaars which apparently binds Purusha to Prakriti is broken and the Purusha realises its True Nature and knows that He was never the doer and therefore, no sins or merits accrue to him.

OM

smaranam
08 February 2013, 03:32 AM
|| om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ||


smaranam is saying that it is only prakrti that is the doer. In that case both param atma and jiva are simply observers then?


What's throwing me off is that in 26 to 28 there is discussion of classification of ' the agent' itself into sattvika, rajasika etc.

Namaste,

Please note the different statements in post #2.
Jiva is simply an observer when she is on the spiritual side of the fence.
Jiva, in her purest state, is not mistakenly taking the doership upon herself.

So, first we have to define "doership." Please also notice the [relatively passive or subtle-action] verbs in green in my earlier post (#2).
Choose
turn inwards and pray
refer to
improve
watch
monitor

These have clearly been attributed to the jiva. Notice that these verbs are subtler than "dance, jump, read, sing, plant, build, speak, shout, hit, fight, hug..."

The brown and green is the distinction between lower prakRti and higher prakRti. The verbs in green do not directly result in an action or do not make a direct & immediate impact on the world.

One may also argue, "The paramAtmA is the witness, so He is witnessing, which is also a verb or an action"
We know that this is not the implication of the teachings.

What RAmAnujAchArya means by "dependant doer" is the verbs in green, but not brown, but those also have to be sanctioned by paramAtmA. Not a blade of grass can move without His sanctioning. Please see BG 7.6

No servant of Shriman NArAyaN Hari will say "I am such a good singer/dancer/speaker/writer" not even in VaikuNTha. Why? Isn't the jiva singing, writing, dancing, speaking, decorating ? Or is she really?
Not even "I am a [adjective] devotee" , because the pure-devotee-jiva is [whatever] devotee[or-not] only by NArAyaN's grace.
Is she serving? Perhaps, but the bhAv is "I am striving to serve, not sure if truly being of service."

--

I hope the green and brown makes the terms "sAttvic, rAjasic and tAmasic kartA" clearer.

The jiva is enabling prakRti to be a sAttvic kartA insomuch as she is monitoring the guNas with paramAtmA's help, but not indulging in them. This also tells us that while the jiva is dependant on paramAtmA and His grace, she has to "strive" to "be her best for paramAtmA"

**The difference between thinking oneself to be the horses-and-chariot instead of the charioteer holding the reigns.

Notice the difference:
"KRshNa is so beautifully dressed today. Actually, the ornaments are beautified the moment this VRndAvanChandra GiridhAri wears them."
"The temple looks spotlessly clean. Of Course, the house of the Supreme Lord cannot be otherwise."

"The guNas are working in harmony and the mind and intellect of the pujari went in the right direction -- sadbuddhi was granted."

"I am an expert at dressing up KRshNa! I am so good about keeping the temple clean."

We want to be on the magenta-purple band of the rainbow. We want to truly be able to say "VAsudeva sarvam iti" , not even sense ourselves to be "a facilitator of sAttvic karma" - as "my intellect ran in the correct direction"

The vraja-vAsIs (residents of Vraja dhAm) are not aware of themselves. They do not realize that they were the instrument that made such nice mAkhan, or garland, or joke or story for KRshNa. They are simply overwhelmed with love. They are involuntarily motivated to move in the directions that make KRshNa happy, that make His beauty and love radiate towards all and make all happy. They want to give KRshNa to others.


_/\_

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~

Amrut
08 February 2013, 06:03 AM
namaste and thank you for the replies.

I have to re read verses 14 to 16 as some of you have suggested.

My own thoughts about this particular Bhasya are leaning towards what Philosolaptor and indiaspirituality has said and what wundermonk has implied i.e. the jiva is the doer but a dependent one. I think to keep consistent with the bhasya this is how one has to understand it.

That said, as we can see even on this thread there is a difference of understanding who is actually doing something and who is inactive observer e.g. smaranam is saying that it is only prakrti that is the doer. In that case both param atma and jiva are simply observers then? I should dare to say that this understanding is not consistent with what sri ramanuja is saying. Also, if prakri is the doer, why does jiva have to suffer or benefit through this body for the actions of the prakri?

Namaste,

Few things to note

1. From Maya everything, including physical bodies and Jiva, was created. Maya influences all of us.

So prakruti does everything. Doer 'associates' these actions with himself and so retains individuality. Jnani does not associate himself with actions. - remember that this statement is of Jnani. Jnani sees that prakruti is doing everything. Jnani is the observer.

2. Can we say that Prakruti influences Jiva to do karma - this needs to be thought.

3. Just believing that everything is done by God is not enough. We think that everything is done by god or by the wish of god and then, as usual, get engrossed in work, forgetting God. So even if we think that we are doing nishkama-karma, we are actually doing sakAm karma.

Due to this, even though prakruti does karma, Jiva identifies itself with this karma.

So it is not the karma, but the identification / association with karma - kartA bhAva, that binds you with karma and makes you to suffer / enjoy (bhoga) it's fruits.

The bhAva that - i am doing karma - is the culprit.

Now, one should detach himself / herself from karma and body, by being observer (shAkshI bhAva) - shakshi is also a bhava.

By doing this you do not even identify yourself as the doer and enjoyer of fruit (Jiva / Mind / subtle body), but you are aware that someone else is doing this work. By being an observer, one detaches itself fro mthing that he/she is not. By being aware of brahman one becomes or knows or realizes that 'I am Brahman'

4. jiva and Ishwara are both upAdhi - Brahman is observer.

If you remove panch mahAbhuta fro mJiva and 6 qualities of Ishwara, what remains is Pure Brahman which is attributeless.

difference between Ishwara / avatar is that

They are always aware of their true nature.
They can materialize at any place and any time.
They can , at will, go back to tier nirAkAra swarUpa and can take form.

Ishwar is mAyA-pati (swami) and so controls mAyA (prakrutI) and is not influenced by it like Jiva.

Jiva is ignorant and does not know that he is brahman.

---

A thought about Maya and Jiva adn individuality

Now imagine a pot inside pool of water.

This pool is Brahman [1] and pot is, say, panch mahAbhuta or simply our body which separates individuality. Water is inside pot and outside pot. It is the pot which is separating this water. Now if pot is destroyed, then water inside pot will mix water in the pool.

---

A different standpoint.

Jiva is the doer, as it is under the influence of Maya (prakruti) and is bound by it. Jiva does not know it's true nature.

By being aware that someone is doing work, that is not me, then for sure you are not Jiva as you can observe that someone is doing karma. So you are actually Shiva - Brahman.

But, in general, our consciousness is tied with the mind nad mind is tied with body.

Sri Ramana Maharshi says that, Atman gives Prakash (power) to buddhi (and Mind) and lights by staying inside buddhi (and mind).

Actually, mind / buddhi can function because there is atman. But ego, due to ignorance thinks that it is he who is doing karma and in turn generates desires. fruits of karma makes ego (mind) happy or sad this reaction makes him do more work and in turn increases desires. So more action and more fruits . .. the cycle continues.

It is ahankar that thinks he is doing and so wants to enjoy the fruits. But to do so, ego cannot satisfy by itself. So it takes adhara of body and tries to satisfy desires via 5 senses. Actually mind is subtle than gross objects of world and senses, but it becomes slave of 5 senses, due to 'ego of doership'

That is why it is said that only by Jnana one attains mukti. One has to remove this wrong-identification.

---

I hope this will make things clear.

Aum
IS

btw, Satay ji, we are having great discussion. After many years, I opened my favourite Gita

... and when I was trying to be too technical explaining verse word-by-word, at once I thought I am Yajvan ji ;) :D

EDIT: Edited word in blue after @smaranam's correction. Earlier it read: This pool is prakrutI / MAyA / cosmos [1] and pot is ...
my apologies. At once I though that even maya can be used.

smaranam
08 February 2013, 06:53 AM
Namaste

These are nice explanations but we are discussing Ramanuj's commentary on Bhagvad Gita which is VishishTAdvaitic in nature, not kevala advaita.

So a few differences :


including physical bodies and Jiva, was created.
Jiva is ignorant and does not know that he is brahman. ...

---
By being aware that someone is doing work, that is not me, then for sure you are not Jiva as you can observe that someone is doing karma. So you are actually Shiva - Brahman.

Yes, except for the part about jiva being "created by Maya" and then vanishing from the scene altogether.
The liberated jiva is Brahman, and shiva (auspicious). However, in Ramanuj language that would be a siddha jIva (free,liberated) as opposed to the baddha jIva (bound to material nature, entangled in doership).



A thought about Maya and Jiva adn individuality
Now imagine a pot inside pool of water.
This pool is prakruti or cosmos and pot is say panch mahAbhuta or simply our body which separates individuality. Water is inside pot and outside pot. It is the pot which is separating this water. Now if pot is destroyed, then water inside pot will mix water in the pool.

Well, the pool is actually consciousness or Brahman, not cosmos. Only a fraction of Brahman is the cosmos.

The water that just got mixed may be distinguished by its relationship with the pool.
Ganga water - aishwarya-ras, Jamuna water-madhurya-ras, salty water - veer ras/gambhir bhav, sweet water - seva ras , muddy water - vairya bhav, ocean water - vatsalya bhav, waterfall-water - sakhya bhav ...

So there is pure individuality (like the residents of Vraja - not aware of themselves, but do not cease to exist as individuals)
and impure individuality (centered around aham bhav and ego, doership, entanglement with material nature, false identification with the body)

The vraja-vAsIs (residents of Vraja dhAm) are not aware of themselves. They do not realize that they were the instrument that made such nice mAkhan, or garland, or joke or story for KRshNa. They are simply overwhelmed with love. They are involuntarily motivated to move in the directions that make KRshNa happy, that make His beauty and love radiate towards all and make all happy. They want to give KRshNa to others.
Some are mothers of Brahman, some are fathers, some are sakha some are sakhi, some are servants, some are enemies, some are rival sakhis, some are ministers, uncles, aunts ... all in combinations of primary, secondary and tertiary rasa.
But mostly, the liberated jivas can be servants of Bhagavan in some form.

jivera svarup haya krishNera nitya dAs - Chaitanya Mahaprabhu

_/\_

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~

Amrut
08 February 2013, 07:15 AM
@smaranam

Thank you for your clarification and insightful explanation.

Yes indeed it is Ramanuja's commentary, so your explanation is correct w.r.t. this thread and so to OP. Sorry for dragging it into Advaita (I do not know Keval Advaita. I just know Advaita :) ). Jumped in to explain when I saw the question from Janan Kand.

Just to let you know that cosmos = maya. I meant it this way. If this is a problem with my English translation, please accept my apology.

Thanks again.

Namaste

Jai Shri Krushna
IS

Amrut
08 February 2013, 07:31 AM
Namaste,

In case of any issues and for troubleshooting, we can refer to Upanishads.

Gita is the essence of Upanishads. So everything that is said in Gita has to be found in Upanishads.

Upanishad is not my cup of tea. Hence it depends upon our more knowledgeable members, and you satay ji, if you wish to find the truth and better interpretation and gain clarity.

I have one more thought to gain more clarity, but I will type it after reaching home.

Aum

smaranam
08 February 2013, 07:32 AM
Just to let you know that cosmos = maya. I meant it this way. If this is a problem with my English translation, please accept my apology.

Namaste,

Usually i have heard this pot-breaking anology being used for Brahman and embodied individuals. So, air/water inside/outside is Brahman, not Maya - subtle difference.

No problem with your English translation, and no need to apologize.

I am sure your posts were helpful, just this part about the jiva is different with different schools.

_/\_

Jai Shri KRshNa

satay
08 February 2013, 08:52 AM
namaste,
Thanks for the explanations. Since I am currently only reading ramanuja's commentary would appreciate your explanations from that pov only so to keep it simple for my simple engineering mind.

If praktri is the actual doer what's the point or role of jiva? Just observation?

Amrut
08 February 2013, 09:12 AM
Namaste,

Usually i have heard this pot-breaking anology being used for Brahman and embodied individuals. So, air/water inside/outside is Brahman, not Maya - subtle difference.

No problem with your English translation, and no need to apologize.

I am sure your posts were helpful, just this part about the jiva is different with different schools.

_/\_

Jai Shri KRshNa

I agree. Sorry my mistake.

My apologies.

@satay

Sorry for side tracking. I will keep this in mind.

Aum

devotee
08 February 2013, 09:14 AM
Namaste Satay,



If praktri is the actual doer what's the point or role of jiva? Just observation?

My understanding is this based on Bhagwad Gita and non-classic theistic Samkhya (the ancient version of Samkhya seen in Vedas, VedAnta and Bhagwad Gita). I am not sure, if RAmAnuja too says the same thing or not :

Jiva is not the observer. The observer is Purusha (AtmA). Jiva is an instrument which is created by Prakriti drawing its reflected Consciousness (as Prakriti by itself is JaDa and cannot act) from its proximity with Purusha for enjoying the fruits of Karma. Jiva's existence is dependent on two things : Prakriti and Purusha (as long as Purusha identifies itself wrongly with Prakriti). Jiva assumes the doership and gets entangled in the network of Karmas.

OM

Amrut
08 February 2013, 09:53 AM
@satay

General suggestions:

1. Whichever commentary you read, it is always better to read the commentary which shows word-2-word translation.

I strongly believe that even the order of words in a sloka has importance. When translating to english, may be lost.

Avoid reading commentaries which simply give the meaning in a statement without splitting. Even though sometimes the translation maybe true, to avoid any confusion and for gaining clarity, better stick to word-2-word translation, followed by full translation of a sloka.

2. Double Translation error: When a saint writes a commentary in one language, say, tamil, then another one will translate it in english. Already the thughts of saints are present. The translator will introduce his/her own words or his explanation / meaning, as he/she has understood or have interpreted.

Better read a copy which is directly translated from sanskrit into your mother tongue.

3. Only search for other another commentary, if your doubt is not resolved. There is no need to keep reading commentaries by various saint if your goal is just to progress in spirituality and not to achieve mastery over scriptures, et al.

4. keep repeating over and over again and keep praying to give solution. Do not ignore strength prayer. Each prayer counts. IT also brings you close to God, no matter what path you follow.

5. If an audio commentary is available by same saint whose book you are reading, then please prefer to listen audio (and if possible video). It has it's advantage. Words, the accent, the way a swami stresses on words and expression (in case of video), are helpful.

6. Repeat ... Repeat ... Repeat.

Our mindset changes with passage of time. A sincere seeker is looking for practical solution, which he/she can apply in daily life. Our mind may skip info which it does not find important at that time. Later on, when time passes, you may rise another doubt. So this time, you will find answer in another sloka.

Again you will not understand completely in one time. So better read it again to have a neck.

I have experienced this.

7. Most important point:

If an idea remains an idea, it is useless (to you), no matter how much impressive it sounds.

Read with an approach to solve your doubts, gain clarity and apply it in your daily life.

Even though this post is not related to your question, it will help you. It gives direction. With a new direction and approach, start again or repeat again.

Begin with a prayer and pray to God, "OH God I surrender to you. I am at your refuge. Please help me to understand Gita. Let me grasp what is necessary for me. Let me grasp the essence. Oh God Clear my mind, silence this inner chatter. Prepare me to read this holy book. Without your grace how can I know you! How can I come near you! Oh God I surrender to you'

If you sincerely repeat it 2-3 times and then open the book and re-read it, I am sure you will find insight.

God listens to devotees who ask for solving financial problems. Don't you think God will listen you to your sincere prayer which is better than asking for material comforts?

God helps. He definitely does help. Trust God. Not me :)

Aum
Indiaspirituality

EDIT: @philosoraptor. The blog which you have provided link is very informative :), but as @satay says, the download of BG is not working

Amrut
08 February 2013, 10:27 AM
@satay and to all those who are interested.

When I was searching for sanskrit verses on net so that I do not have to re-type them again and then added your query to find wor-to-word translation of BG by Shri Ramanuja, I found this link

http://www.bhagavadgitausa.com/Ramanuja_bhagavadgita_bhasya.htm

It gives word-to-word translation. Since Ramanuja bhasa is very different, I am not able to judge it whether the interpretation is correct or not, as it is so different from shankar bhasya :)

It does not have detailed commentary.

Another link would be that which @smaranam gave in one of his thread (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=10911) on his / her thoughts on BG

http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/

Link to chapter 18: http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/chapter-18.html

@philosoraptor. Thanks for the link for the blog, though the down is not working, blog is very informative.

Aum

wundermonk
08 February 2013, 12:32 PM
Since I am currently only reading ramanuja's commentary would appreciate your explanations from that pov only so to keep it simple for my simple engineering mind.

If praktri is the actual doer what's the point or role of jiva? Just observation?

Ok. Let us not confuse things and keep it simple.

I offer you Ramanuja's commentary from Brahmasutras 2:3:33-41.

Per Ramanuja, these sutras affirm the agency of the jiva. The following are his arguments in favour of it:

(1)Scriptural injunctions otherwise would be meaningless. Vedic injunctions have no significance in respect of insentient prakriti.

(2)Sruthi support:


It taking the organs, moves about as it pleases in its own body


Intelligence performs sacrifices, and it also performs all acts

Intelligence, here, refers to the jiva, per Ramanuja.

(3)Admission of knowledge, agency and ability to reap results does NOT affect the jiva's immutable nature. Any modification that takes place, only takes place to the attributive knowledge (dharma bhuta jnana) of the jiva. Jnana is the jiva's essential attribute, for sure, but the jiva's svarupa essence itself is unaffected. Agency, feelings of pleasure/pain, etc. are in Visishtadvaita modifications of jnana and hence do not affect the jiva's essence. The jiva is the asraya or substrate for jnana. And knowledge, agency and ability to feel pain/pleasure are attributed to the jiva because of its status as asraya.

(4)On the question of whether the jiva's agency is dependent or independent of Paramatman, the answer is that it is dependent. But, the jiva's agency is ALSO dependent on other special causes such as past karma, indriyas, time, nature, etc. Yet, none of these are considered to affect the agency of jiva. Then, why should the opponent only single out Paramatman's role as a general cause?

jignyAsu
08 February 2013, 01:56 PM
Please watch this for further clarifications to Sri Ramanuja's views from Sri Vellukudi Krishnan Swamy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fscvOuOPjGc
(Skip 10-15mins to get to the lecture.)

As wundermonk says, Sri Ramanuja points out that all shAstric injunctions go to the Atma giving him the choice, as otherwise they are a waste. "I am the doer" should be "We are the doers" to include the Gunas, karma, body and also finally the supreme Paramatma who controls everything else. If he doesn't have this attitude then he is an ahankari, meaning, he identifies with his body.

Here's a thought. Did you know I could swim upto 25 miles/hour 40 years back? This was because I was a dolphin in my last birth! Now, why can't "I" swim that fast now...or do "I" want to swim at all?

philosoraptor
08 February 2013, 06:03 PM
Here's a thought. Did you know I could swim upto 25 miles/hour 40 years back? This was because I was a dolphin in my last birth! Now, why can't "I" swim that fast now...or do "I" want to swim at all?

You're only saying that because you think we're impressed. Well, I'm a 71-million-year-old, philosophically-inclined, talking dinosaur, and you don't see me bragging about it. Do ya? Just sayin' is all....

atanu
09 February 2013, 12:20 AM
Namaste,
I have been reading the 'Sri Ramanuja Gita Bhasya' published by Sri Ramkrishna Math and I have a few questions that I am hoping someone can clarify.

In chapter 18, specifically in verses 14 and onwards there is a concept of 'an agent' or 'karta'. It is stated in verses 16 and 17 that

16: he who sees only the self as the agent on account of uncultivated understanding he of wicked mind, does not see at all and,

17: he who is free from the notion 'I am the doer' and whose understanding is not tainted slays not though he slays all these men nor is he bound.

Further there is a discussion of 'knowledge, object of knowledge and the knower.

In verse 19, it is stated that knowledge, act and the agent are declared in the science of Gunas to be of three kinds according to the difference in the Gunas and lord Krishna then proceeds to talk about these separately from verse 20 to 28.

Previously in verses 13 and 14 the bhasya gives a purport explaining that 'supreme self' alone is the agent working through body.

Thus when Sri Krishna talks about 'niyatam...' The obligatory act in verse 23 and the classification of all acts into sattvika, rajasika etc, is he talking about the 'acts' performed by the 'supreme self' working through the body?

What's throwing me off is that in 26 to 28 there is discussion of classification of ' the agent' itself into sattvika, rajasika etc.

My confusion is this: who is this classification of talked about in verse 26 to 28? Of the individual self or the supreme self since supreme self is the only agent/karta and the individual self seems to be only the observer or knower?

My underlying confusion is about who is actually performing the acts, the individual self or the supreme self? Or both? If individual self is not the doer and not actually doing anything then what is his role?

The topic pulled me in. :)

Shri Ramanuja's teaching is:




http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-05-08.html
One who has realised the nature of the atma or soul knows the true nature of reality. Such a person reflects that through the senses of perception such as eyes and ears, the senses of action such as the voice, the pranas or life breaths, the physical body functions with all its corresponding objects; but factually I am separate as an individual consciousness from all these activities and virtually do not do any of these actions. The conception of doership is derived from contact with the senses which a living entity is coerced to accept from time immemorial due to past actions in past lives. But this doership is not an essential attribute of the atma and thus it is not necessary to accept. So I shall not accept it as being my essential nature. Thus does one situated in atma tattva or soul realisation reflect.


The nature of Atman, whether individual or the universal, is of pure intelligence/awareness. In this light, all organs, including the mind (karta having three guna nature) function, just as we function only because there is sun. The true nature of Atman is to impart awareness. This view is same in VA and Advaita.

Neither the Supreme Self nor the Individual Self are the doers. Supreme Self is, however, the doer in the sense that actions initiate in the Supreme Mind, which also has three guna characteristics.

Hope this is Ok.

Some discussion on this:

http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/all94/0062.html

atanu
09 February 2013, 12:52 AM
Namaste,

Thus when Sri Krishna talks about 'niyatam...' The obligatory act in verse 23 and the classification of all acts into sattvika, rajasika etc, is he talking about the 'acts' performed by the 'supreme self' working through the body?



That the atman is non-doer is the liberating knowledge. However, in ajnana, the individual ego-mind is the doer. The obligatory work is for the individual ego mind alone.

smaranam
09 February 2013, 01:12 AM
If praktri is the actual doer what's the point or role of jiva? Just observation?

To love, serve and glorify Parameshwar. To be in His loving service.
To be His friend companion.
Parameshwar is bhAv-bhukelA

jivera svarUp haya krishNera nitya dAs
The eternal intrinsic nature, svabhAv of the jIvAtmA is to be an eternal servant of KRshNa
- Chaitanya Mahaprabhu

_/\_

BaDo natakhata hai re mero kAro Kanhaiyaa ...

Amrut
09 February 2013, 04:40 AM
To love, serve and glorify Parameshwar. To be in His loving service.
To be His friend companion.
Parameshwar is bhAv-bhukelA

jivera svarUp haya krishNera nitya dAs
The eternal intrinsic nature, svabhAv of the jIvAtmA is to be an eternal servant of KRshNa
- Chaitanya Mahaprabhu

_/\_

BaDo natakhata hai re mero kAro Kanhaiyaa ...

Namaste ji,

Genuine doubts:

1. Does this mean Jiva is the doer of higher / divine / sattvik actions?? -

2. Does this mean that any activity not connected with this or subtle world and that any activity doing for Krushna will be nishkAma marka - free from doership??

3. Agent = MAdhyama (medium / instrument) - Is this correct
So everything happens through you. someone else is controlling you

Hari Aum
Jai shri Krushna

jignyAsu
09 February 2013, 07:00 AM
Pranams,


You're only saying that because you think we're impressed. Well, I'm a 71-million-year-old, philosophically-inclined, talking dinosaur, and you don't see me bragging about it. Do ya? Just sayin' is all....

This was just an example my friend to illustrate how the GuNas/body are the primary cause of action. Not that I think I was a dolphin or know my past lives....



1. Does this mean Jiva is the doer of higher / divine / sattvik actions?? -


My understanding...Jiva is the initiator and not the performer of sAttvik actions. Therefore the ShAstras take pain in guiding him.



2. Does this mean that any activity not connected with this or subtle world and that any activity doing for Krushna will be nishkAma marka - free from doership??


Doing for Krishna with the understanding that I am not the doer is what is required. Is offering a flower such a simple thing? God protected the Vedas, made so many Rishis like Sri VyAsa to be born, made so many Bhaktas, then Acharyas, protected them, motivated them and preserved their teachings, helped so many noble souls to preserve our temples etc, Himself appeared so many time and clarified. Then finally I got this body/mind due to Karma..even after this so many prayers, devotees, wonderful people made me offer my first flower to Him. So am I the doer? :) Recognizing these things only, did our Acharyas say to Bhagavan: "How can I dare to claim that I did all this...It is only You who has made me do this."

smaranam
10 February 2013, 03:31 AM
om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

Namaste

1. Does this mean Jiva is the doer of higher / divine / sattvik actions?? -
Not sAttvic actions. The divine actions "are simply happening."
That was the whole idea of the magenta, green and brown (pl. see post#11).
Also, AtanuJi's posts clear this - #25,26.
Jiva situated in her true svarUp is beyond material guNas (magenta, divine). So the sense "I am doing this sAttvic karma" (green-to-brown) is not there . Jiva is fascilitating, you can say being the instrument. Like a pen, or flute, sitar.


2. Does this mean that any activity not connected with this or subtle world and that any activity doing for Krushna will be nishkAma marka - free from doership??
I think Jignyasuji explained that quite well. NishkAm karma can truly happen in KRshNa consciousness. When it is done for God, you are not in the picture, just a tiny cell or part of the Whole machine.


3. Agent = MAdhyama (medium / instrument) - Is this correct
So everything happens through you. someone else is controlling you
Hari Aum
Jai shri Krushna

Yes.

_/\_

Jai Shri KRshNa

smaranam
10 February 2013, 03:50 AM
"Om GovindAya namah:"
My dear Lord, nothing is mine , everything is Yours.

You are my Knowledge and my Wealth [Tvam eva vidya , dravinam Tvam eva].
You are my Everything [Tvam eva sarvam mama Deva Deva]
om keshavAya namah: (svAhA)
You created me , didn't You ? I am just Your instrument. So please order me and i shall do as You say.
om nArAyaNAya namah:
Here , take this. My mind, intelligence , whatever that is, is all really Yours. You gave it all to me.
om mAdhavAya namah:
All my supposed abilities and strengths are Your opulences. Here, take them.
om govindAya namah:
All worldly things You have given me belong to You. So please accept them.
om vishNave namah:
What am i doing ? "Giving" everything back to You ? It was never mine in the first place !!
om madhusUdanAya namah:
Not a blade of grass can move without Your Will.
om trivikramAya namah:
This that i am scribbling is also really fuelled by Your Mercy.
om vAmanAya namah:
BUT THIS IS NOTHING COMPARED TO THE BIGGEST TREASURE YOU HAVE GIVEN ME: om shridharAya namah:
Its Your infinite GRACE and kindness that YOU MAKE MY HOME AND HEART YOUR ABODE, and YOUR ABODE AND HEART MY HOME.
om hRshikeshAya namah:
He Hrishikesha Govinda Madhava Madhusudana Vasudeva ,
my Lord my Swami,
i do not know how to be
om padmanAbhAya namah:
Therefore i surrender myself unto Thee.
om dAmodarAya namah:
And although i may not live upto Your expectations
i am trying , trying hard, my Lord
om janArdanAya adhokshajAya dwArkAdheeshAya namah:
its but Your Mercy that i need
swift as wind at speed
om vAsudevAya namah:

~ ~

-- KrushNAli
9:30 am, June 20, 2008

Amrut
10 February 2013, 04:26 AM
Thank you jignAsu

@satay.

I have gone through the verses from Sri Ramanuja's POV.

Lets consider the following diagram from Top to Bottom and then later on from Bottom to Top

1. Top to Bottom


http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/1080/atmanjivashariratbshort.png

From Atman the consciousness enters in the body through Mind / Jiva. Jiva thinks that this is it's own prakash and so the 'I' factor arises.

Actually it is prakRutI (God's power) that is doing the work, but because of the 'I' factor, Jiva thinks that 'I am Doing'. So Jiva associates himself with the karma.

Jiva needs some desires / wishes to be fulfilled. But it cannot itself fulfill it. So it takes AdhAra of body. Jiva experiences and enjoys worldly objects through body and it's 5 senses and does work through five karmendriyAs. This becomes the reson of being trapped in endless cycle of birth and death.

Body does the action, but the fruits karma and so pleasure and pain are enjoyed / suffered by Jiva due to it's association. A dead body will not experience anything. It is the mind that experiences everything. For simplicity, we will take Mind = Jiva = Ego.

So technically, from top to bottom,

Director = Atman (Brahman)
Actor = Body
Jiva = Credit Taker. Assumes himself as doer.

Does this give an explanation of why Jiva does not do the work (act)?

So does this mean Jiva is also an observer, like Brahman?

Well, now lets try to give a practical solution, so that we can apply it in our life.

Lets take the chart from Bottom to Top


http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/6638/atmanjivasharirabtshort.png

Some statements are talking about destination ( लक्ष्यार्थ )

Since chapter 18 is the essence of whole Gita, it covers everything from chapter 1 - 17.

In karma kand, it is said that one has to surrender karma-phala to God. In 18:14-15, it is said that the karmas are done due 5 causes.

One cannot live without karma. So one has do karma in the name of god and surrender karma-phala (fruits of karma) to God and take fruits as God's prasad.

Now this approach will reduce the attachment of mind with body and look towards God.

Imagine yourself (as Jiva), in between body and Brahman (or God, Krushna). Can you look up and down at the same time. When you are looking at shadow, you cann see the Sun.

So, it is the transformation from doer to non-doer of Jiva.

Why am I saying that Jiva is doer, because practically we say that – 'I have done this work', 'I have studied engineering', 'I am sick', 'I am intellegent', ' I am bored', etc. This is our day-2-day language.

So it is a transformation from doer to observer or being a meduim (an agent / instrument).

First step is to change the approach of doing karma. One has to do karma in the name of God, for God, surrender it's fruits and acept fruits as prasad of God. This will reduce attachment (of mind) from this material world.

Next is to know the truth. By knowledge I mean information.

Information --> understanding -->direct experience / knowledge.

But for time being lets take this information as knowledge for the sake of simplicity.

So, first step is to change the approach of doing karma.

Next is to know that it is God which is doing all the work. Our job is to surrender ot God. So let me surrender to God. If God is doiong work, through me, thenelt him do this work. Let my will by united with the will of God.

Again, since I have sirrendered to God, as God says that I will take care of you. So now my body is not mine anymore. It is Gods. Let God take care of it. Let there be no resistence from me. Let me not inturrupt the divine plan. Let God flow through me.

I allow myself to be a meduim / an instrument of God. - I Allow – Let God Flow through me.

This approach will again reduce the attachment with karma nad with Body. This approach will take us closer to God.

Thrid step is to know that, It is the God that is working through me. So let me just be observer.

In this way, you Jiva will dis-associate himself from this world, body and 5 senses.

Initially since one cannot stay idle, so we say, that let 5 senses be in service of God. Later on it's just being an observer.

So, the statements which imply that Jiva is an observer and that God's power Prakruti or God is doing all the work is to take us in that state. Practically we may not be in that state – as an observer.

From Bottom to Top

I am body --> I am an instrument (agent) --> I am observer

Since you are studying Sri Ramanuja's commentary, I will not go further than observer, else I may un-intentionally end up in advaita.

Again, From Top to Bottom

Now we will replace Atman as Krushna for simplicity and consistency. You can read it as Atman / Paraatman / Brahman / ParaBrahman / Krushna

Krushna --> Jiva --> Body

Jivas originate from Krushna. Jivas are trapped by Panch Mahabhuta and become ignorant. They are trapped in Body and so in body consciousness. Jiva associates itself with bodies and experiences this world through 5 senses (windows or doors)

Spiritual path is to go back or rather come back from where we have come.

Body (consciousness) --> Jiva (consciousness), as an observer --> into Krushna and be with him.

Lets summarize the whole thing.

Gita starts from Karma to Bhakti to Jnana.

1. Surrender fruits of karma to God
2. Chant Gods name and be with him – Surrender everything, including our selves (body and mind)
3. Know your true nature and be an agent, an instrument.
4. Do karma and bhakti with Jnana

Conclusion:

We are a part of whole, made of same essence as that of God. We are his agents for doing his work. Jiva should not take credit of the karma or any activity, but be surrendered to God and dis-associate itself from body (and so from karma) by being observer. Once we dis-associate / detach ourselves from our body, we automatically detach ourselves from this world (samsAra)

I hope that I have given answers to your questions with practical application.

--

Advaita from the beginning assumes that 'I am not Body' While we all live in body consciousness. So it is easier to accept ourselves as an instrument of Krushna and do karma then to just think that 'everything we do is just an illusion. It is all maya' Practically we see, feel, experience, analyze and live in this world. So advaita concept and the concept of obeserver is difficult to understand and grasp. In the same way accepting God as nirakara is difficult to accept. But accept him as a divine personality, who does lilas, it is much easier to accept and apply. Accepting ourselves as part of the whole is easier than accepting ourselves as whole (completeness), because we live in body consciousness. Mind is attached to body.

--

Aum

Ref:
[1] A discource on Bagavad Gita by Swami Tadrupanand Saraswati
[2] http://202.3.77.102/acquia/?q=node/27
[3] Images prepared using Inkscape in Linux Mint

Amrut
10 February 2013, 04:44 AM
om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

Namaste

Not sAttvic actions. The divine actions "are simply happening."
That was the whole idea of the magenta, green and brown (pl. see post#11).
Also, AtanuJi's posts clear this - #25,26.
Jiva situated in her true svarUp is beyond material guNas (magenta, divine). So the sense "I am doing this sAttvic karma" (green-to-brown) is not there . Jiva is fascilitating, you can say being the instrument. Like a pen, or flute, sitar.


I think Jignyasuji explained that quite well. NishkAm karma can truly happen in KRshNa consciousness. When it is done for God, you are not in the picture, just a tiny cell or part of the Whole machine.


Yes.

_/\_

Jai Shri KRshNa

Thank you

__/\__

jignyAsu
10 February 2013, 04:57 PM
Thank you both for the detailed posts...discussions make us strong in our convictions. But lest that my flower example be taken to mean that the Jiva/Atma does nothing at all...please note that the Jiva has the free will to offer it or not.

A/c to us we are the eternal Atma, atomic in size. We are not consciousness itself, but possess it as an inseparable attribute. Instead of knowing itself as this, it identifies itself as a mosquito, a man etc thinking that it does everything. How can the atma suck blood...but a mosquito does so...therefore Atma is not the doer. So Sri Krishna advices.

In the flower example, the Jivatma can decide to the use the entire infrastructure to offer a flower, or watch TV or maybe go to a club and dance. Therefore the Shastras advices to worship Mukunda and not to indulge in sensual pleasures. But even if he does choose to offer the flower and he says he did it, then it means he has the notion of false "I".

Please tell me, who else does these advices belong to if only witnessing happens? Prakriti is insentient and therefore needs no advice. If this points to God then it is purposeless...therefore there's a distint Jivatma who chooses the doing..this is Sri Ramanuja's philosophy.

One humble request: This "being a witness" has been used to justify crimes unthinkable by modern babas, avatars and sages..like molesting children etc. Innocent victims continue to be deluded. This is very dangerous and has to be used cautiously. Great teachers like Sri Adi Shankara, Narayana Bhattadri or Swami Vivekananda etc never used such reasons. I am just saying that the original advaita needs a strong way to distinguish itself from the neo advaita.

smaranam
10 February 2013, 06:34 PM
Good points, jignyAsuji.

Please note that all of my sentences also had a conditional clause which i am afraid many readers, evidently, quickly overlooked.

When it is done for God, (offering the flower or Arjun listening to KRshNa)
JIva, in her purest state,
When the jIva is on the spiritual side of the fence,
In KRshNa consciousness
in her natural constitutional position (of the soul)
When we are truly able to say "vAsudeva sarvam iti"


Nobody can ever accept molestation being done for God. Those who do so are in fact criminals only. They KNOW they are cheating. They are NOT innocent, and never were even in the mind. It is no different from terrorists commiting crimes in the name of religion or criminals in saffron robes looting money from naive followers and disappearing from the scene. They were planning this all along.

And by the way the jIva, in her natural constitutional position, is not witnessing. She is in service of paramAtmA - like His Flute, the grass in Vraj, the trees bearing fruit...
However, she lacks the bhAv that "I make fruits for KRshNa" "I make music for KRshNa" "I make a soft carpet for KRshNa to run about barefoot, and keep air fresh and clean"

The trees bear fruit because prakRti made them that way. Similarly, a pure devotee in vAtsalya bhAv bathes dresses and feeds KRshNa because it is natural to her. The focus is on His beauty and His leelA, not on her own actions. She is too overwhelmed to have any aham bhAv.

If the jiva chooses to go to a club and dance instead of offering the flower, most likely she is not in her constitutional position, purest state, but looking for selfish sense gratification - unless she goes there to preach the Mahamantra. Even then one cannot say sense gratification is nil.

In the state of full KRshNa consciousness, the free will moves about only in the spiritual or shuddha-sAttvik spectrum. If everything is/belongs to your Beloved, how can you possible harm? You cannot get yourself to harm an ant. Can you harm your Beloved?
Perhaps the advaita view may be dangerous at times, but not the shuddha bhakti view.

So, the conditional clauses are very very very important, and cannot be overlooked. Thanks for bringing that up.

_/\_

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~

Amrut
10 February 2013, 11:35 PM
Thank you both for the detailed posts...discussions make us strong in our convictions. But lest that my flower example be taken to mean that the Jiva/Atma does nothing at all...please note that the Jiva has the free will to offer it or not.

A/c to us we are the eternal Atma, atomic in size. We are not consciousness itself, but possess it as an inseparable attribute. Instead of knowing itself as this, it identifies itself as a mosquito, a man etc thinking that it does everything. How can the atma suck blood...but a mosquito does so...therefore Atma is not the doer. So Sri Krishna advices.

In the flower example, the Jivatma can decide to the use the entire infrastructure to offer a flower, or watch TV or maybe go to a club and dance. Therefore the Shastras advices to worship Mukunda and not to indulge in sensual pleasures. But even if he does choose to offer the flower and he says he did it, then it means he has the notion of false "I".

Please tell me, who else does these advices belong to if only witnessing happens? Prakriti is insentient and therefore needs no advice. If this points to God then it is purposeless...therefore there's a distint Jivatma who chooses the doing..this is Sri Ramanuja's philosophy.

One humble request: This "being a witness" has been used to justify crimes unthinkable by modern babas, avatars and sages..like molesting children etc. Innocent victims continue to be deluded. This is very dangerous and has to be used cautiously. Great teachers like Sri Adi Shankara, Narayana Bhattadri or Swami Vivekananda etc never used such reasons. I am just saying that the original advaita needs a strong way to distinguish itself from the neo advaita.

when you are as an observer or doing sattvik qualities, you cannot do anything that is not sattvik in nature. The key is meditation or chanting God's name. In meditation, you can see the reflection of mind.

What you are talking about is the wrong way of interpreting shastras, like jehad, a beautiful word to be used on mental plane is used on physical plane.

you have 100 vasanas, out of which 90 are up-rooted, but still 10 remain. Out of this 10 one is sensuality. That is fine. It's work in progress. But that sadhaka should be in isolation awaiting for that desire to extinguish. But immature sadhakas try to be Gurus, as they slip, dirty work follows.

A request: Please stay on topic is

Question: Is Jiva a 'doer' or an 'observer'. If it's observer than what's it's purpose?

Answers:

1. Doing divine work is not considered as doing.
2. Being shakshi (observer) by dis-associating itself with body and letting God do the work is also not considered.

We can talk about advaita some other time, as it may trigger yet another long discussion :)

Aum

jignyAsu
11 February 2013, 08:29 AM
And by the way the jIva, in her natural constitutional position, is not witnessing. She is in service of paramAtmA - like His Flute, the grass in Vraj, the trees bearing fruit...


Excellent! Indeed the soul's natural constitution is to provide unconditional, eternal service to Sri Krishna.


But immature sadhakas try to be Gurus, as they slip, dirty work follows.


Point taken - Bonafide Advaita Acharyas do not ask the Sadhakas to think: "Aham Brahmasmi" and do away with purity/sadhana in the beginning itself. Sorry for the deviation.

Now to summarize my understanding of Bhagavad Ramanuja's philosophy as regards to the topic of the thread.

A mosquito, Ravana and Hanuman- in all three are present: the eternally distinct atomic Atma, Prakriti and Sri Rama.

In a mosquito, the atma is helplessly bound by the prakriti as its jnAnA is shrunk to almost nothing by karma. The shAstras do not bother advising it.

In Ravana, his jnAnA is obviously much more expanded and there's more choices of action here. The shAstras pronounce him as durAtma. The advices to not steal other people's wives, to control senses, follow dharma..all point to the atma only. Cause if it points to prakriti/ahankara or God, then mosquito is also a candidate for advice.

In Hanuman, the jnAnA is most expanded for obvious reasons. If God has taken complete control, then it means Ravana is the most independant of all 3 -> not acceptable. Also, if there's no distinct Hanuman performing the feats, the shAstrAs only need to praise Sri Rama. Hanuman is in complete realization of His dependance on Sri Rama's infinite will.

So realizing: "I am not the doer" means the realization of a bound Atma working in conjunction with prakriti and Karma - all under the efficient management of the Brahman.

satay
11 February 2013, 11:22 AM
namaste and thank you all for the explanations,

I have to study more. My own understanding so far is that although paramAtma is the ultimate doer, the jiva still does make choices and thus 'acts'.

This is due to the concept of freewill. Even in Gita after all is said and done, Krishna still gives Arjuna a choice and leaves it up to him to make the correct decision.

So in that sense when 'I' decide to go for a coffee or a walk or to do sadhana, it is 'me' the jiva making that decision not the parmaAtma. paramAtma has equipped me to make that decision so in effect given me some 'doership'. It is due to this exercising of freewill that karma is attached so the jiva becomes bhogi of those karmas.

'me' the jiva and not paramAtma wrote this post (with the help of other five things mentioned in chapter 18)

More study is in order.

satay
11 February 2013, 11:24 AM
namaste smarnam,


To love, serve and glorify Parameshwar. To be in His loving service.
To be His friend companion.
Parameshwar is bhAv-bhukelA


Although it sounds very nice and emotional, it is not practical to be in loving service, to love, serve and glorify Parameshwar. Is it?

satay
11 February 2013, 11:27 AM
namaste atanu,

The topic pulled me in. :)

Thanks for the rare post. It is good to know that certain topics on HDF can still pull expatriates in. Good to see...

Amrut
11 February 2013, 11:52 AM
namaste and thank you all for the explanations,

I have to study more. My own understanding so far is that although paramAtma is the ultimate doer, the jiva still does make choices and thus 'acts'.

This is due to the concept of freewill. Even in Gita after all is said and done, Krishna still gives Arjuna a choice and leaves it up to him to make the correct decision.

So in that sense when 'I' decide to go for a coffee or a walk or to do sadhana, it is 'me' the jiva making that decision not the parmaAtma. paramAtma has equipped me to make that decision so in effect given me some 'doership'. It is due to this exercising of freewill that karma is attached so the jiva becomes bhogi of those karmas.

'me' the jiva and not paramAtma wrote this post (with the help of other five things mentioned in chapter 18)

More study is in order.

Namaste,

I agree :)

We have been given free will and this free will is the culprit

In short, we have to align / unite our will with the will of God.

Teachings have to be practically applied. Some statements are for motivation and represent ideal condition. They are our reference.

Aum
Indiaspirituality

philosoraptor
11 February 2013, 01:11 PM
namaste smarnam,



Although it sounds very nice and emotional, it is not practical to be in loving service, to love, serve and glorify Parameshwar. Is it?

Pranams,

Why not?

Just by studying this sacred conversation, you are worshiping Him with your intelligence. Or so He says in the 18th chapter.

regards,

MahaHrada
11 February 2013, 01:15 PM
When studying this subject it is important to remember that the concept that moksha can be obtained while being activly involved in worldly duties and activities even these involving himsa, like warfare, is peculiar to the message of the Gita while such a concept is rejected by the renunciate traditions of indian religion.
To be able to understand the import of the message of the Gita it helps to know that it is a message in contrast to other major indian spiritual traditions, which insist that there is only the path of renunciation and yoga that leads to moksha and contrast that with the path of worldly duties that will inevitable lead to samsara and rebirth.
The viewpoint in the Gita is that a person who is not a renunciate, sadhu or yogi and involved in the pravritti marga, the worldly path, can nonetheless reach liberation, to that end the Gita has to resort to concepts that are rational hard to digest, renunciate traditions do not have problems like this, since here all worldly activity (karma) leads to samsara and rebirth and only renunciation of worldly activity as a first step, and ultimately cessation of all karma (activity) leads to moksha.

satay
11 February 2013, 01:45 PM
namaste Maha,
Nice to see you posting. I value your comments but this particular post of yours seem to be beyond the scope of this thread.

Here in this thread I am not quesntioning the Gita itself or not even worried about Moksha etc. At the moment Moksha is not at the forefront of my thought.

I only want to understand 'who is the doer' discussed in sri bhasya by sri ramanuja.


When studying this subject it is important to remember that the concept that moksha can be obtained while being activly involved in worldly duties and activities even these involving himsa, like warfare, is peculiar to the message of the Gita while such a concept is rejected by the renunciate traditions of indian religion.
To be able to understand the import of the message of the Gita it helps to know that it is a message in contrast to other major indian spiritual traditions, which insist that there is only the path of renunciation and yoga that leads to moksha and contrast that with the path of worldly duties that will inevitable lead to samsara and rebirth.
The viewpoint in the Gita is that a person who is not a renunciate, sadhu or yogi and involved in the pravritti marga, the worldly path, can nonetheless reach liberation, to that end the Gita has to resort to concepts that are rational hard to digest, renunciate traditions do not have problems like this, since here all worldly activity (karma) leads to samsara and rebirth and only renunciation of worldly activity as a first step, and ultimately cessation of all karma (activity) leads to moksha.

satay
11 February 2013, 01:48 PM
namaste philosoraptor,


Pranams,

Why not?

Just by studying this sacred conversation, you are worshiping Him with your intelligence. Or so He says in the 18th chapter.

regards,

Not to take the thread on a tangent but practially speaking how can one be worshipping, in loving service of God all the time. It is impossible.

Somebody has to go out and work so that family can have nice things of life, especially for a grahista, Isn't?

MahaHrada
11 February 2013, 01:48 PM
namaste Maha,
Nice to see you posting. I value your comments but this particular post of yours seem to be beyond the scope of this thread.

Here in this thread I am not quesntioning the Gita itself or not even worried about Moksha etc. At the moment Moksha is not at the forefront of my thought.

I only want to understand 'who is the doer' discussed in sri bhasya by sri ramanuja.

Yes, i only wanted to add why the Gita needs, or talks about, the concept of a second kind of actor at all/ in the first place, this "inactive actor" only becomes necessary because of the peculiar message. This chapter is about Renunciation (and Moksha), and therefore other views about Renunciation are debunked in these particular verses. I thought it helps to know the overall context of these arguments.

philosoraptor
11 February 2013, 03:57 PM
namaste philosoraptor,

Not to take the thread on a tangent but practially speaking how can one be worshipping, in loving service of God all the time. It is impossible.

Somebody has to go out and work so that family can have nice things of life, especially for a grahista, Isn't?

Pranams. Great question. From Sri Krishna's description of karma-yoga, it seems that performing prescribed actions without attachment to the fruits is the means by which to provide for the family, even as a grihastha. Recall chapter 3 in which Krishna describes the relationships between yagna and rain, food, etc. Recall also His instruction to Arjuna, while discouraging him from the path of jnAna-yoga, that no one can cease from activity. Now, we live in a society where yagnas are not every day things and where wealth is usually earned by doing work that is clearly not prescribed. How one can remain fixed in His service while in such an environment, while yet keeping to the spirit of varNAshrama-dharma, is precisely the debate we should be having. As in, I don't have a succinct answer to this, but I do think it would make a great thread of its own....


When studying this subject it is important to remember that the concept that moksha can be obtained while being activly involved in worldly duties and activities even these involving himsa, like warfare, is peculiar to the message of the Gita while such a concept is rejected by the renunciate traditions of indian religion.

Not only is this not correct, it also makes no sense, since the four-fold order of varNa and Ashrama is vedic in origin, and there would be no point in assigning some people to orders involving worldly activity if there was no hope of spiritual upliftment for them.

The concluding mantras of the mahAnArAyaNa upaniShad, which clearly are geared towards those seeking liberation, still show that their audience included those persons who were engaged in worldly activity:


LXIII-3: May God grant me royal prosperity, the bliss of freedom, health, noble repute, capacity to pay off the debts to gods, departed souls and sages, the qualities of an ideal Brahmana, many sons, faith, intelligence and grandsons. May this oblation be offered for that. Hail!

LXIV-3: May God grant me royal prosperity, the bliss of freedom, health, noble repute, capacity to pay off the debts to gods, departed souls and sages, the qualities of an ideal Brahmana, many sons, faith, intelligence and grandsons. May this oblation be offered for that. Hail O Jatavedas [the all-knowing Supreme invoked in fire]!

LXVII-2: Just as a perennial well is supplied with water by hundreds and thousands of springs, so may I have an inexhaustible supply of grain from a thousand sources. For that end, I offer oblations to the wealth-holding deity. Hail!

LXVII-3: With the intention of acquiring prosperity, I present offering of food to those spirits who are the servants of Rudra (dwelling in the cremation ground) causing pain to creatures by death and bereavement, and who wander about day and night in search of tribute. May the lord of prosperity grant me all prosperity. Hail!


Obviously, if one could not perform worldly activities in a way conducive to liberation, then these mantras being a prayer for worldly benefits (progeny, grain, wealth, health, and so on) would make no sense in the concluding part of the upaniShad which focuses on liberation.

If this wasn't clear enough, the next section should be:

LXXVIII-1: Truthfulness is excellent. What is excellent is truthfulness only. By truthfulness those who have attained to the state of blissfulness never fall from there. What belongs to sat, namely good people, that is indeed satyam (truthfulness). For this reason seekers of the highest good find delight in truthfulness.

LXXVIII-2: Some hold the opinion that austerity is the means of liberation and that there is no austerity higher than religious fast. This excellent austerity is hard to be practiced. A person who practises it becomes invincible (or such austerity is unthinkable for the commonalty). Therefore seekers of the highest good delight in austerity.

LXXVIII-3: Perfect ascetics declare that withdrawal of the senses from the attraction of forbidden objects is the means of liberation. Therefore they delight in it.

LXXVIII-4: Hermits who dwell in the forest consider that tranquility of mind is the means of liberation and therefore they delight in calmness.

LXXVIII-5: All creatures praise selfless gift as supreme; for there is nothing more difficult to perform than giving selfless gift. Therefore seekers of the highest good delight in giving selfless gift.

LXXVIII-6: Some consider that scriptural duty is the means of liberation. By the performance of scriptural duties all the world is held together. There is nothing more difficult to practise than the duties ordained by the scriptures. Therefore seekers of the highest good find delight in the scriptural duty.

LXXVIII-7: The largest number of people consider that procreation is the means of liberation. For that reason the largest number of off springs are born. Because procreation is deemed such a means, therefore the largest number of people delight in procreation.

LXXVIII-8: Some one devoted to the Vedic religion says that the Vedic Fires are the means of liberation. Therefore the Vedic Fires must be consecrated.

LXXVIII-9: Another person devoted to the Vedic religion says that Agnihotra is the means of liberation. Therefore some seekers of the highest delight in the Agnihotra sacrifice.

LXXVIII-10: Others devoted to the Vedic religion say that sacrifice is the means of liberation. Verily gods have attained heaven by their own prior deeds of sacrifice. Therefore seekers of the highest good delight in the performance of sacrifice.

LXXVIII-11: Some wise people consider that inward worship is the means of liberation. Therefore wise people delight only in inward worship.

LXXVIII-12: Brahma Hiranyagarbha considers that Sannyasa is the means of liberation. Hiranyagarbha is indeed the Supreme. The Supreme alone is Hiranyagarbha (although he is a personality). Certainly these austerities set forth above are inferior. Sannyasa alone surpassed all. To him who thus knows the all-transcending excellence of Sannyasa precious knowledge (has been imparted).

Note how mantras 5-7 are clearly referring to prescribed duties that are "worldly," listed along with other traditionally-religious paths such as austerities, meditation, yagna, etc. The final teaching is that sannyAsa is the means to liberation, which Sri Krishna defines in gItA chapter 18 not as karma-sannyAsa, but as sAttvika-thyAga. In other words, it is not the action performed but the attitude of detachment with which it is performed.

Thus, the idea of performing worldly activity as means towards liberation is clearly there in the shruti also.



To be able to understand the import of the message of the Gita it helps to know that it is a message in contrast to other major indian spiritual traditions, which insist that there is only the path of renunciation and yoga that leads to moksha and contrast that with the path of worldly duties that will inevitable lead to samsara and rebirth.


To understand the important message of the gItA, one has to understand that the belief that renunciation and jnAna-yoga are the only means to mokSha is incorrect, and that karma-yoga and sAttvika-thyAga are equally valid, perfectly Vedic, and more relevant. That this is not a new teaching is alluded to in chapter 4 where Sri Krishna indicates that He delivered this exact same teaching to Vivasvaan millions of years prior.

MahaHrada
11 February 2013, 05:22 PM
To understand the important message of the gItA, one has to understand that the belief that renunciation and jnAna-yoga are the only means to mokSha is incorrect, and that karma-yoga and sAttvika-thyAga are equally valid, perfectly Vedic, and more relevant. That this is not a new teaching is alluded to in chapter 4 where Sri Krishna indicates that He delivered this exact same teaching to Vivasvaan millions of years prior.

I am not concernend, in my posting with the Question whether the message of the Gita is correct or incorrect, my only intent is to suggest that a philosphy and religion is best understood, not in Isolation, but in its interaction with other traditions.

I don´t think that this is an incorrect suggestion.

In this special case, about the nature of the actor, since the chapter is concerned with renunciation, i suggest that a comparison of the Gitas viewpoint with other ascetic, renunciate traditions, is helpful, because the Gita indirectly refers to these opinions, if only in an effort to debunk them.

philosoraptor
11 February 2013, 06:01 PM
I am not concernend, in my posting with the Question whether the message of the Gita is correct or incorrect, my only intent is to suggest that a philosphy and religion is best understood, not in Isolation, but in its interaction with other traditions.

I don´t think that this is an incorrect suggestion.

In this special case, about the nature of the actor, since the chapter is concerned with renunciation, i suggest that a comparison of the Gitas viewpoint with other ascetic, renunciate traditions, is helpful, because the Gita indirectly refers to these opinions, if only in an effort to debunk them.

Pranams. I agree whole-heartedly that the gItA should be understood in the context of the upaniShads and other shrutis. This is why I quoted the shruti-mantras showing, contrary to your point of view, that karma-yoga ("worldly" activities performed for obtaining moksha) was indeed part of the vedic tradition. Krishna's speaking of the gItA was to refute the wrong understanding of the vedas that held karma-sannyAsa/jnAna-yoga as the only means to liberation, not to introduce a new concept of karma-yoga. Karma-yoga was already as old as the age of vivasvAn and manu, as indicated by Sri Krishna in gItA 4.1-2. Nothing in chapter 18 debunks renunciation as it is *properly* understood from shruti. Krishna only debunks the idea that renunciation means renunciation of action. Now, the reasons why people might have that misunderstanding are numerous. It may be because renunciation as a means of escape from the world and actions within the world seem like fundamentally contradictory concepts. Or, it may be because karma-sannyAsa was the standard for great Rishis for whom respect and reverence were the norm. Or, it might be because non-action is easier to understand than dedicated action. But whatever the case may be, there is simply no denying the fact that the vedic tradition endorsed the concept of karma-yoga.

MahaHrada
11 February 2013, 07:24 PM
Pranams. I agree whole-heartedly that the gItA should be understood in the context of the upaniShads and other shrutis. This is why I quoted the shruti-mantras showing, contrary to your point of view, that karma-yoga ("worldly" activities performed for obtaining moksha) was indeed part of the vedic tradition. Krishna's speaking of the gItA was to refute the wrong understanding of the vedas that held karma-sannyAsa/jnAna-yoga as the only means to liberation, not to introduce a new concept of karma-yoga. Karma-yoga was already as old as the age of vivasvAn and manu, as indicated by Sri Krishna in gItA 4.1-2. Nothing in chapter 18 debunks renunciation as it is *properly* understood from shruti. Krishna only debunks the idea that renunciation means renunciation of action. Now, the reasons why people might have that misunderstanding are numerous. It may be because renunciation as a means of escape from the world and actions within the world seem like fundamentally contradictory concepts. Or, it may be because karma-sannyAsa was the standard for great Rishis for whom respect and reverence were the norm. Or, it might be because non-action is easier to understand than dedicated action. But whatever the case may be, there is simply no denying the fact that the vedic tradition endorsed the concept of karma-yoga.

I did not write that the Gita debunks Renunciation as such, only that it is helpful to know that these peculiar verses are concerned with debunking viewpoints of other traditions.

This is a very innocent and rather humble suggestion and it is unnecessary blowing it up or debating it or finding faults with it.

You find support in shruti for the concept that sacrifices can lead to moksha, others find support for the concept that Sacrifces lead to svarga ( "O Fire! Open the door of the heaven—world. Let us see thee, that we may rule supreme in heaven." This is addressed to the Adityas. Next the Saman addressed to the Visvedevas: "O Fire! Open the door of the heaven—world. Let us see thee, that we may rule supreme in heaven...."I, the sacrificer, will go thither when this life is over. Svaha! Afterwards the sacrificer chants: "Cast away the bolt of the heaven—world." Having said this, he rises. Chandogya upanishad " ) and subsequently rebirth, and only renunciation will give final liberation and therefore also developed a different concept of self,agency and karma.

But i do not attempt to take sides or debate this topic only suggest that a study of the context is helpful.

Amrut
11 February 2013, 11:27 PM
namaste philosoraptor,

Not to take the thread on a tangent but practially speaking how can one be worshipping, in loving service of God all the time. It is impossible.

Somebody has to go out and work so that family can have nice things of life, especially for a grahista, Isn't?

Namaste,

We can daily dedicate some time for religious / spiritual practices.

If you meditate i.e. chant a mantra. then the mantra enters sub-conscious mind. Then the mantra would continue in sub-conscious mind, even when you are engrossed in doing work.

So when I am working, it's going on in sub-conscious mind.

But how can you say that mantra does continue?

Because after I drop the work or finish a task and relax for a moment, mantra pops up immediately and spontaneously (sahaj). I have personally observed and experienced this.

Again, when you sleep, you chant the name of god and sleep. When you wake up, if the first thought is the mantra itself, then the mantra has carried on whole night.

If this is not the case, then ti would be impossible for one to progress.

Sri Ramakrishna says, when the delivery month of pregnant women approaches. karma is reduced. After 7th month, it is still reduced. After the time of delivery, mother is relieved of doing any work.

This new born baby is Jnana :)

So God will reduce work, as we become more and more spiritual. But one thing is for sure, our worldly duties has to be dropped or left to God as we progress.

the catch is that initially it should be dropped in mind Later on when one can meditate long enough, even they drop physically, as they see no point in it.

for grishata, I think 5 things should be practiced in moderation

1. Rest
2. Sex
3. Work
4. Meditation (spiritual activities)
5. Enjoyment - take a break from our hectic schedule.

But, one has to dedicate some time for spirituality. This does not mean you stop attending your wife and kids.

Aum

smaranam
12 February 2013, 12:55 AM
Namaste satay

My own understanding so far is that although paramAtma is the ultimate doer, the jiva still does make choices and thus 'acts'.

This is due to the concept of freewill. Even in Gita after all is said and done, Krishna still gives Arjuna a choice and leaves it up to him to make the correct decision.

So in that sense when 'I' decide to go for a coffee or a walk or to do sadhana, it is 'me' the jiva making that decision not the parmaAtma. paramAtma has equipped me to make that decision so in effect given me some 'doership'. It is due to this exercising of freewill that karma is attached so the jiva becomes bhogi of those karmas.

'me' the jiva and not paramAtma wrote this post (with the help of other five things mentioned in chapter 18).

Yes. We take responsibility, but not the credit.

When the outcome is good, radiating goodness and pure goodness, it was due to Parameshwar. When the outcome is bad, it was due to my misuse of the prakRti guNa. Rectification is in order.

Eventually my choice & will should be BhagvAn's choice and will.


Although it sounds very nice and emotional, it is not practical to be in loving service, to love, serve and glorify Parameshwar. Is it?

Oh, on the contrary, it is what the Vedas ask us to do. This is a whole subject. Might start a new thread - but for now:

One can be KRshNa-conscious, Parameshwar-conscious, God-conscious
24 X 7 without changing the most necessary schedules, routines or activities - as long as virakti, vairAgya has not fully manifested - in which case, it is hard, i admit.
As long as you and Parameshwar both agree on the minimal set of "your duties", He wants you to attend to the duties, done for Him, with Him in the center. BG 9.27 (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/9/27/en): Whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer or give away, and whatever austerities you perform — do that, O son of Kuntī (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/k/kunti), as an offering to Me.

Shrila PrabhupAd taught: Make KRshNa the center of your life, activities and relationships. Do everything with KRshNa in the center.

Simplest, we can just be with Parameshwar wherever we go (aware of His presence). Some people find NAma Prabhu (His Holy Names) easier than acknowledging His direct Presence. Fine.

First is to re-prioritize activities and weed out the unnecessary elements in life that are just a matter of habit - such as TV serials, casual meetings with friends (doesn't mean stop being their friend), extra social activities (where your absence does not affect family members at the antakaran level rather than ego level).
Weed out things you like doing only because others praise you, honor you etc. Devotees, sAdhaks also come to the point where they switch careers/jobs to be more suitable to their spiritual needs.

Then with the angas of bhakti, raag and rati will manifest on its own. Attachment to KRshNa leads to dettachment from the world.

As we exchange messages, is KRshNa not with me right now? (It is a different story that He has become an intrinsic part of me, not just accompanying.)
If a person takes little KAnhu or baby KAnhu to work, He will sit on their lap as they work or on the desk, and will come with them into the meeting room too. You can feed Him daal rice when He is hungry without disrupting your schedule and He will be happy. (Don't have to carry a materially manifested daal rice :) )

Any job,occupation,duty - of any type - He accompanies us in one of His forms that we like. Lovers do not need any excuses to not meet, but find all excuses to meet. Sad part is we ignore Him owing to our own independant priorities, likes and dislikes, and make that an excuse to ignore Him.

I don't think KRshNa will like it too much if people spend a lot of work time in posting on HDF. He likes it when we attend to our duties - dedicated to Him, with Him in the centre.

At all other times and during gaps between duties:
BG 9.26 (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/9/26/en): If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it.

Suppose a parent takes a child to the park. They are watching the child. Perhaps they are chatting with a friend or the spouse, but do they notice Him sitting on the bench next to them? Lovers do not need excuses to not meet. It becomes automatic.

---
Nowadays i cannot eat food that is even a little spiced or has oil. Food that was "just normal" a while ago. If by mistake i eat something so as to not hurt other people's feelings, it hurts KRshNa that lives in me. Then keep drinking butter-milk or curds with sugar and honey. Ever since i told Him whatever i eat is an offering to You, i can only eat what He likes.

_/\_

Jai Shri KRshNa ~

Amrut
12 February 2013, 02:42 AM
Yes. We take responsibility, but not the credit.

responsibility = doership
Duty = Doership
service = ?



BG 9.27: Whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer or give away, and whatever austerities you perform — do that, O son of Kuntī, as an offering to Me.

Krushna in the verse you mentioned does not say that this duty will not give fruits adn free you from doership. He says, surrender all karma and it's fruits to me.

It's fruits are that we come closer to Krushna, as we keep Krushna in center :)


As long as you and Parameshwar both agree on the minimal set of "your duties"

How will we (I and God) agree as to what is to be done daily. Sorry but I fail to understand. If I reach the pinnacle of bhakti, then things will be entirely different.

To believe and to know / be aware of Krushna is different.

Even before bhakti comes karma --> selfless action. Gita begins with Karma Kand.


As we exchange messages, is KRshNa not with me right now? (It is a different story that He has become an intrinsic part of me, not just accompanying.)
If a person takes little KAnhu or baby KAnhu to work, He will sit on their lap as they work or on the desk, and will come with them into the meeting room too. You can feed Him daal rice when He is hungry without disrupting your schedule and He will be happy. (Don't have to carry a materially manifested daal rice :) )

true - but will such great person do the work like he used to do when lAlA (infant Krushna) did not manifest (in subtle body)?

when the bhakti is at it's peak, can you simply think of anything else? Others just look like a pale shadow, as your entire focus is on Krushna, uncaring what others will think (as they do not see Krushna), when you are playing with him. Do you care about them - the world?

Will you be able to do any work other than attending bhakti?

Still karma does not leave from our head?

--

Karma is stressed, because we cannot live without work.

the thing is that all these karma, as per you, does not involve doership.

Aum
Indiaspirituality

P.S. I am not going to the extend of advaita.

smaranam
12 February 2013, 04:42 AM
responsibility = doership
Duty = Doership
service = ?
Namaste

sva-dharma == akarma.
responsibility = fascilitating the manifestation of His work through available prakRti (which is a gift from God)
The trace or saMskAr that "I did this" will not remain IF the jiva is in KRshNa-consciousness.
When done because "it is my dharma" ordinarily, then saMskAr will remain.
Plus, if the outcome is not good - of course i have to take responsibility and stay in control of the sattva guNa so that corrections are made or mistakes are not repeated. Yet, once that is done, the traces or saMskAr that "I rectified the situation" or "I am so terrible" "I went wrong" will not remain. The jiva will just do what needs to be done dispassionately - own up, take responsibility, do the needful and leave the situation.

Ultimate point is to leave behind aham-bhAv.


Krushna in the verse you mentioned does not say that this duty will not give fruits adn free you from doership. He says, surrender all karma and it's fruits to me.

It's fruits are that we come closer to Krushna, as we keep Krushna in center :)
When direct would-be material fruits are sacrificed i.e. offered to KRshNa, it is nishkAm karma hence akarma.
When the karma itself is offered to KRshNa it is KRshNa consciousness hence akarma.
The gift of coming closer to KRshNa is a result of KRshNa-conscious attitude, and the overall intrinsic desire of the bhakta, not the fruit of the karma itself.

Besides, the last post was aimed at "how to become Parameshwar-conscious gradually, so that we gradually arrive at the constitutional position of the jiva i.e. in loving service of ParamAtmA"
One might not jump to the jiva's constitutional position, pure state overnight or immediately.
So, yes, while we are work-in-progress, there will be some doership which becomes more and more transparent as we advance.

PrabhupAd said if someone wanted they could become KRshNa conscious this next second. But we know that the process is usually gradual.



How will we (I and God) agree as to what is to be done daily. Sorry but I fail to understand. If I reach the pinnacle of bhakti, then things will be entirely different.
To believe and to know / be aware of Krushna is different.
Right. So, we are talking about not being the doer when in pinnacle of bhakti. In the meanwhile (when not sure), resort to shAstra, adapting to current situation, weed out personal desires and goals from the necessary duty of earning money or other duties.


true - but will such great person do the work like he used to do when lAlA (infant Krushna) did not manifest (in subtle body)?

when the bhakti is at it's peak, can you simply think of anything else? Others just look like a pale shadow, as your entire focus is on Krushna, uncaring what others will think (as they do not see Krushna), when you are playing with him. Do you care about them - the world?

Will you be able to do any work other than attending bhakti?
CASE 1]
Assuming vairAgya has not yet fully manifested,
you don't care about your position in the world, what people will say about you.
However, you do care about what impact you make on the world, your work in this case, because it all belongs to KRshNa. You are fascilitating the manifestation of His work through available prakRti (which is a gift from God), for Him, and cannot cause any harm, nuksAn.

CASE 2] If vairAgya has set in fully, you will not be at work. Bhakta says to the Lord "I don't care. It is impossible for me to do anything anymore except be with You"
KRshNa : "Are you sure?"
bhakta: "Yes"
KRshNa: pack up, leave everything behind and come with Me...
bhakta: All that i was doing was for You. That which i was in charge of was given to me by You. If Your instruction is this, who am i to worry about who and what i leave behind? You gave them/it to me, You will take care of it/them.



Karma is stressed, because we cannot live without work.

the thing is that all these karma, as per you, does not involve doership.
Are we not forget the conditional clause ? - "when in full KRshNa consciousness, in jiva's purest state..."
As long as one feels ownership of anything in this world, they are not in that state. Doership means the saMskAr of having done something, saMskAr of acheivement, ownership.

Bhakti does not always precede jnana, so as to involve ego-doership. Real bhakti starts AFTER jnAna dawns. After the 18th chapter of Gita.
Some devotees say that Gita is the ABC or kindergarten of Bhakti Yog.

_/\_

Jai Shri KRshNa ~

Amrut
12 February 2013, 06:16 AM
Namaste,

Thank you for explaining it from VA POV

Jai Shri Krushna

__/ \__

jignyAsu
12 February 2013, 11:08 AM
Although it sounds very nice and emotional, it is not practical to be in loving service, to love, serve and glorify Parameshwar. Is it?

I am a struggler in this too, way short of the ideal and I guess lot of us are in the same boat.

Lest that we should come up with the objection of having a busy life, Sri Krishna out of His boundless compassion gave His immortal teachings in the busiest battlefield ever!

Sometimes chanting, remembering Him etc may be hard. But to continue doing our karma with the firm understanding that we are the eternal servants of Sriman Narayana is not impractical at all.

We all worked for 14 hours a day this week. One of us also did so..but he did not indulge in politics and back biting. When we showered our praise on him for his efforts, he pushed it back to us saying it was a team work. When we yelled at him for his mistake; he politely apologized...forgot that then and there.

We all had some great conversation at work. One of us did not participate in purposeless/sensual topics. She talked only in measure, had a pleasant humor, was never rude and was deep in some thoughts. When not required, even in the middle of an interesting work, she left home saying she had evening prayers.

We all spend two hours travelling for work. Phone is a great friend for us during this time. But he spends his time listening to an mp3 on Rama/Krishna...probably even wiping his tears from time to time.

His 3 year old keeps nagging him. He doesn't have any TV programs to watch or idle conversation to miss. So he attends to his kids, probably wondering if Krishna would have nagged Yashoda like this!

When we hogged on the delicious feast, with wine and with delicious deep fried stuffs...he silently declined everything with a smile saying he had his food. Some of us know that he thinks that food not offered to Sri Krishna is but dirt, but he won't tell us.

In material loss or profit, he gets up early in the morning at the same time, does nitya karma, reads Valmiki Ramayan, sings kirtan on Krishna...there has not been a day we have seen him miss.

When we asked him why he lived this way..he said since we all belonged to Sriman Narayana, it was but natural.

When somebody told us horrible things about the superstitious Vedas and the Hindus, she came to our thoughts and we said: "really??? I am not able to believe this". When someone said such a life style is impractical, we corrected him saying we know this person.....

Is he not living his life in service of the Brahman? I know all this is easier said than done but I believe everyone has his starting point to progress from.

BS Murthy
12 February 2013, 12:32 PM
Dear Sastry garu;
You may see if my translations in English of the said verses of Chapter 18 of Bhagvad-Gita are of any use to you.
14
Prone are acts to these aspects -
Body to sustain, ego that goads
Senses thy lure, life to guard
Faith in deities that tends thee.
15
Be well or so be ill
In word, thought ’n deed as well
Sourced are acts in these aspects.
16
Ignoramus in vain ascribe
Acts of theirs to Spirit in them.
17
It’s for thee to realize now
That by killing these Kauravs
Slay thee none of them thyself.
18
Aspects knowable, known ’n knower
Lead to duty, deed ’n doer, in that order.
19
Knowable as well deeds ’n doers
Bracket those freed in three groups.
20
Lay indivisible in frames divisible
Realize virtuous Spirit not perishable.
21
Spirit in them ’n others that lies
Apart ’n unique feel passionate.
22
Failing to see beyond the self
Deluded think like frog in well.
23
Illusions of life virtuous
See in light of limitations
Thus thou carry businesslike
Duties that their life ordains
24
In want passionate come to live
Bogged down by, what they eye.
25
Deluded work in reckless ways
Harm their cause ’n others’ as well.
26
Taking well and ever at ease
Senses honed ’n ego evened
Detached virtuous ever engage.
27
Mind as covetous ’n thought impure
Crave passionate all things mundane
Which them excite as well pull down.
28
Verily deluded, vulgar ’n vacillate
Arrogant, dishonest, ignorant ’n malicious
Indolent being remain they gloomy.
29
By natures of these beings
Features intellect theirs vary.
30
Deal virtuous in measures equal
Weigh they fine all deeds their fair.
31
Perspective lack passionate right
In weird ways they tend their lives.
32
Given their state of perversion
Go all deluded in wrong path.
33
Virtuous ever in self-control
Steady they wavering mind of theirs.
34
Things that seem to bring joys
Passionate all with zeal pursue.
35
Proud ’n arrogant, doubting ’n grieving
Bog down deluded in despair.
36
Make a note of these three ways
Pains which banish ’n fetch bliss.
37
What fail sprint ’n serve long run
Virtuous know keep woes at bay.
38
It’s the way with thy passion
To jump at all that what might tempt
Which would turn sour in due course.

39
Ever in day-dreams
End up deluded in dreamlands.
40
Beyond the pale of these natures
None ever exists in three worlds.
49
With no want
Allegiant to none,
Freed from action
Thou forsake.
50
Leads how forsake to Brahman
Know that Wisdom Supreme now.
51
With pure mind ’n will that’s strong
Wants thou void and firm thy self -
52
Frugal of food, thoughts reined in
Dwell in self thou sans passion –
53
Lack thou pride, wish ’n wrath
Give up ego, crave not power
Be content and live in peace
It’s then thou come near Brahman.
54
Treat all beings ever equal
And in devotion live tranquil.
It’s thou attain State Brahman.
55
It’s then one would know Me true
That tends him to be one with Me.
57
Let thy faith in Me be strong
Take Me thou for thy shelter
And ever thee act as My agent.
58 .
It’s all smooth sail if heeded
At thy peril thou this ignore.
59
It’s thine ego sues for peace
But prevails what is thy nature..
60
Sidetrack might thine illusions
But nature thine would shape thy deeds.
62
Fix thy mind on Me Supreme
Find thou peace in My refuge.
63
That thee heard of this wisdom
For task on hand now apply mind.
For full text link to http://self.gutenberg.org/eBooks/WPLBN0002097652-Bhagvad_Gita_Treatise_of_Self_Help-by_BS_Murthy.aspx?Words=Bhagvad-Gita%20Treatise%20Self-Help
regards,
BS Murthy

Necromancer
12 February 2013, 11:41 PM
Namaste.

I have only partially read this thread, because my brain started to hurt (figuratively) after about the first 4 replies.

I realised then, I am not as 'philosophical' as the rest of you. Maybe this is a good thing, maybe it isn't.

I noticed that Shankaracharya was mentioned, and IIRC, he became enlightened by watching 2 birds. One bird was eating fruit and the other was watching. Shankaracharya was 'observing' it all.

Thus, there's the 'do-er' (body/mind), the 'observer' (overmind/consciousness) and that which is the 'supreme witness' to all...that which gives rise to creation being God/Lord Vishnu/Brahman or whatever one calls It....or...Jivatman witnessed by Atman witnessed by Paramatman (something like that).


Not to take the thread on a tangent but practially speaking how can one be worshipping, in loving service of God all the time. It is impossible.


One can't consciously recall God all the time.

The best we can do, is to pray for half an hour or so in the morning, and for about 10-15 minutes before meals, then about another half an hour to an hour or so in the evenings.

We can live the rest of the time according to Dharma and teachings, trying to serve others and set a good example. If we have work/family duties, they should be attended to.

Then, one day, we may find God working through us if our Faith and Love is strong enough and He sees us as a worthy vessel. Then and only then shall we be in full 'God Awareness' 24/7. I wait and pray for that day.

Aum Namah Shivaya

Amrut
13 February 2013, 03:03 AM
Namaste.

I have only partially read this thread, because my brain started to hurt (figuratively) after about the first 4 replies.

I realised then, I am not as 'philosophical' as the rest of you. Maybe this is a good thing, maybe it isn't.

I noticed that Shankaracharya was mentioned, and IIRC, he became enlightened by watching 2 birds. One bird was eating fruit and the other was watching. Shankaracharya was 'observing' it all.

Thus, there's the 'do-er' (body/mind), the 'observer' (overmind/consciousness) and that which is the 'supreme witness' to all...that which gives rise to creation being God/Lord Vishnu/Brahman or whatever one calls It....or...Jivatman witnessed by Atman witnessed by Paramatman (something like that).



One can't consciously recall God all the time.

The best we can do, is to pray for half an hour or so in the morning, and for about 10-15 minutes before meals, then about another half an hour to an hour or so in the evenings.

We can live the rest of the time according to Dharma and teachings, trying to serve others and set a good example. If we have work/family duties, they should be attended to.

Then, one day, we may find God working through us if our Faith and Love is strong enough and He sees us as a worthy vessel. Then and only then shall we be in full 'God Awareness' 24/7. I wait and pray for that day.

Aum Namah Shivaya

Brother / sister,

Since this thread is from Vishista advaita, Please make it a point to be with that tradition.

I have been consciously not allowing the advaitin inside me to unleash :)

Aum

Necromancer
13 February 2013, 03:15 AM
Brother / sister,

Since this thread is from Vishista advaita, Please make it a point to be with that tradition.

I have been consciously not allowing the advaitin inside me to unleash :)

Aum
My apologies. I shall make sure to quote the Bhagavad Gita next time or refrain from posting here.

Amrut
13 February 2013, 04:50 AM
My apologies. I shall make sure to quote the Bhagavad Gita next time or refrain from posting here.

Nothing to apologize. I told you from my experience. I derailed from the track too unless smaranam ji pointed out.

It's not that you are posting anything wrong info, but to just be on track in accordance to VA and Advaita, as OP is reading BG from VA POV.

Even I would have contradicted many statements, but that will not solve the purpose and may hurt the sentiment of VA devotees, which I do not want.

I practice Advaita Vedanta .

If you find any of my posts that are getting off-track, please do let me know

Aum

satay
14 February 2013, 10:22 AM
Dr. S. M. Chari in 'The Philosophy of the Bhagavadgita', on page 179 clarifies Sri Ramanuja position on this.

In explanation of 18.4, he says,



Adhisthana or the seat refers to the physical body. Karta or the agent acc. to S [sankara], the empirical ego, the Self conditioned by the atahkarana, the limiting adjunct which is caused by avidya. For Ramanuja, karta is the jivatman. For Madhva karta is God...

Further he says, that there are several factors responsible for the accomplishment of an action, the Supreme being is the main cause of action. The individual self functions with the capacity endowed by Paramatman, out of its free will. The jiva is karta but its kartrtva is endowed by Isvara, as it is stated in the Vedantasutra (parattu tat 'sruteh).

Then he says, "if an individual thinks he is the doer it is due to his ignorance."

Again, I think here like Philosoraptor said earlier, it should be 'If an individual thinks he is the only doer it is due to his ignorance.

This answers the question for me. Thank you everyone for your explanations.

(emphasis in his quote above is mine)

Amrut
14 February 2013, 11:03 AM
Dr. S. M. Chari in 'The Philosophy of the Bhagavadgita', on page 179 clarifies Sri Ramanuja position on this.

In explanation of 18.4, he says,



Further he says, that there are several factors responsible for the accomplishment of an action, the Supreme being is the main cause of action. The individual self functions with the capacity endowed by Paramatman, out of its free will. The jiva is karta but its kartrtva is endowed by Isvara, as it is stated in the Vedantasutra (parattu tat 'sruteh).

Then he says, "if an individual thinks he is the doer it is due to his ignorance."

Again, I think here like Philosoraptor said earlier, it should be 'If an individual thinks he is the only doer it is due to his ignorance.

This answers the question for me. Thank you everyone for your explanations.

(emphasis in his quote above is mine)

Nice to know that you have found the solution :)

Spirituality is one path in which we get happy when others get clarity and progress towards his/her goal.

Aum
IS

smaranam
15 August 2013, 03:48 AM
Who is the doer ? The answer is Prakriti. The Purusha or Atman is not the doer. However, Prakriti cannot act on its own. "Desire" (one of vikaars) arising in Purusha brings Purusha to Prakriti and it makes Prakriti to act in such a way so as to fulfill the desire of Purusha.

Purusha being tinged with 'desire' forgets its True Nature and identifies itself with the Prakriti and gives rise to Jeeva and owns the doership wrongly. This wrong identification causes Jeeva being bound to the fruits of Karma and keeps him bound to the Prakriti.

Namaste

NOTE: The above quote is not in line with VishishThAdvaita of Ramanuja being discussed on this thread, and neither is what follows in this post. The premise is that of ONE AtmA pervading the entire existence and beyond.

Given the words in red, is the purusha supposed to cross His fingers and pray that a vikAr (blemish) does not arise in Him? Pray to whom?
Is the ONE and ONLY Purusha/AtmA not the Self-same before and after jnAna? Then what is the guarantee that these vikAr will not arise again?

Is the implication that this Purusha "turns into" Uttam Purusha? But that cannot be, since this Uttam Purusha, or Purushottam NEVER EVER gets deluded, NEVER throttles Himself, NEVER gets 'tinged' with vAsanA (desire).

"VikAr arises in Purusha/AtmA"
"Purusha/AtmA gets tinged with vAsanA"
"Shiva throttles Himself to become the Universe and living beings"

So much for "JnAna is permanent" I would say.
It is crystal clear from the above that jnAna alone cannot be permanent.
Without Ishwar/Bhagvan's help anyway. But Bhagvan is diliberately unseen and unacknowledged in this case.

One possibility is, these statements are too casually carelessly made and inaccurate.
What I mean is, who owns those sanchit karma?
VikAr and vAsanA arising in Purusha show that NEW karma is manufactured before sRshTi. Because the repository of sanchit karma that BramhA utilizes for sRshTi (manifesting of material world), already has a candidate chosen to be dispatched - A broken piece of Purusha known as the transmigrating jiva. So sanchit karma are mapped one-on-one to transmigrating jivas each.

Then what are these NEW stand-alone vAsanAs? Dangerous. Very dangerous.

IF that is the case, would it not be better to let the Uttam Purusha be, untouched, untainted like the kamala patra (Lotus Leaf) and let jiva continue its role of pure devotion?

sigh

He KRshNA karuNAsindho dIna-bandho jagatpate
gopesha gopikA-kAnta rAdhA-kAnta namostute _/\_ _/\_ _/\_