Sriman Narayana - is he limited to only 22 avatars?

[Viraja]

Acc. to Bhagavad Purana, Sri Vishnu has taken 22 avataras.

But it appears that from the story behind the 108 divya desams for Sriman Narayana, that in many of these temples, Sri Vishnu has unique existence that is separate from the Narayana of the milky ocean.

Let us take for example, Kanchi Varadaraja. It is said he emerged from the sacrificial fire of Brahma and has a unique existence. For example, when the profound Vaishnava devotee 'Thirukkachi Nambi' wants to do fanning service to Sri Ranganatha, it is said Sri Ranganatha told him not to as he was cool being surrounded by river Cauvery. Then Sri Thirukkachi Nambi is supposed to have asked Tirupathi Venkatachalapathi. For this, Sri Venkateswara answered in similar vein that he too is not in need of fanning service as being atop 7 hills, he gets cool mountain air and is thus not hot. Then finally Sri Thirukkachi Nambi is supposed to have been told by Venkateswara to do the fanning service to Kanchi Varadaraja as he only emerged from Yagna homa and is thus always very hot. This suggests, Tirupathi Venkateswara has a separate existence, so does Ranganatha and so does Kanchi Varadaraja, although they are all Sri Vishnu.

And apart from the 22 avataras listed at Bhagavad Purana, there are still other forms of Vishnu such as Satyanarayana.

And similarly for Sri Krishna, I am aware of atleast 3 forms of Krishna - Krishna as always worshipped, Panduranga and Puri Jagannatha.

Thus I am wondering, if there are indeed 108 additional forms of Vishnu belonging to 108 divya desa. Do they all have separate existence in Vaikuntha? Afterall, in my imagination so far, Sri Vishnu meant only Sriman Narayana lying on the bed of AdiSesha in the milky ocean - now it appears there are many, many forms of Vishnu with separate existence and consort for each.

Insights welcome.

Edit:

As an added example, once Sri Tirupathi Balaji is said to have appeared in the dream of a profound devotee and instructed him that Sri Varagunamanga is supposed to be the wife of his brother, Sri Vanamaamalai Thottadrinatha, and to proceed with the divine marriage taking to this instruction! Thus we know Vanamaamalai Thottadrinatha is different from Tirupathi Balaji.

[jignyAsu]

Jai Sriman Narayana!

Sriman Narayana's Avataras are of different categories -> Para, Vyūha, Vibhava, Antaryamin, and Archa!

Sri Rama, Krishna etc are vibhava avatars or His appearing amongst us and interacting with us. Please note that all vibhava avatars are not the same. There are purna avatars, amsa avatars, avesha avatars etc. Sri Rama, Krishna are complete avatars.

Sriman Narayana with Adi Shesa in the milk ocean is also an avatar only..cause we see Brahma and other mortal devas entering and leaving. (They were on TV:D)

The Archa Avataras are a totally different category, much more merciful that all other avatars. Why so? I haven't seen Vaikuntha, I wasn't even a grass in Vrindavan or Ayodhya when He came. But even I can go to Thirupati or SriRangam and worship Him. He is here amongst us, waiting for us and at the mercy for us! He doesn't easily break His vow of silence.

Please note that these are "Divya" desams and so distinguish themselves from the other temples. They have their references in the Puranas; Sri Ranganatha has been personally worshipped by Sri Rama Himself. The 7 hills of Thirupathi, I believe, are mentioned even in Rig Vedas. But other temples have been constructed recently.

[philosoraptor]

Acc. to Bhagavad Purana, Sri Vishnu has taken 22 avataras.

Pranams. Yes, that is true. However, in that same chapter listing the avatAras, it is also mentioned that Lord has forms as innumerable as the waves of the ocean.



But it appears that from the story behind the 108 divya desams for Sriman Narayana, that in many of these temples, Sri Vishnu has unique existence that is separate from the Narayana of the milky ocean.

Let us take for example, Kanchi Varadaraja. It is said he emerged from the sacrificial fire of Brahma and has a unique existence. For example, when the profound Vaishnava devotee 'Thirukkachi Nambi' wants to do fanning service to Sri Ranganatha, it is said Sri Ranganatha told him not to as he was cool being surrounded by river Cauvery. Then Sri Thirukkachi Nambi is supposed to have asked Tirupathi Venkatachalapathi. For this, Sri Venkateswara answered in similar vein that he too is not in need of fanning service as being atop 7 hills, he gets cool mountain air and is thus not hot. Then finally Sri Thirukkachi Nambi is supposed to have been told by Venkateswara to do the fanning service to Kanchi Varadaraja as he only emerged from Yagna homa and is thus always very hot. This suggests, Tirupathi Venkateswara has a separate existence, so does Ranganatha and so does Kanchi Varadaraja, although they are all Sri Vishnu.

And apart from the 22 avataras listed at Bhagavad Purana, there are still other forms of Vishnu such as Satyanarayana.

And similarly for Sri Krishna, I am aware of atleast 3 forms of Krishna - Krishna as always worshipped, Panduranga and Puri Jagannatha.

Thus I am wondering, if there are indeed 108 additional forms of Vishnu belonging to 108 divya desa. Do they all have separate existence in Vaikuntha? Afterall, in my imagination so far, Sri Vishnu meant only Sriman Narayana lying on the bed of AdiSesha in the milky ocean - now it appears there are many, many forms of Vishnu with separate existence and consort for each.

Lord is never "separate" from Himself, but He can appear in multiple different places simultaneously, as He did during the rAsa-lIlA and also during His dvAraka-lIla with 16,108 separate queens. And what to speak of being in 16,108 palaces, the shrutis declare that He is the indwelling paramAtmA within each jIva. This makes His many manifestations limitless.

In the shruti, nArAyaNa does not specifically denote the form of the Lord lying on milk ocean. Rather, the concept "nArAyaNa" is synonymous with "brahman," which in turn is synonymous with the parama puruSha having countless limbs and divine attributes. This all-pervading, boundless form of the Lord presents such an overwhelming experience to behold that He conceals these glories and takes other forms that are more accessible to the devotee.

Now, your question, as I understand it, is this: when the devotee gets liberation, does he or she have the choice of worshiping the Lord in any of these forms which are beheld in this world (lIla-vibhUtI)? I'm not entirely sure of the answer. In the first place, I do not think a devotee would distinguish between any form of the Lord, knowing that He is the repository of all attributes and all personalities. That being said, the gauDIya vaiShNavas say that there is a separate manifestation of vaikuntha for every form of the Lord and the devotee will eternally engage in service to Him in one specific relationship with the Lord in a specific form, i.e. rAma, kRiShNa, and so on. But, it should be noted that this is not explicitly mentioned in the bhAgavata or viShNu purANas, and aside from one oblique reference in the bRhadAraNyaka upaniShad, the nitya-vibhUti aka vaikuntha aka param padam is usually referred to in shAstra in the singular.

regards,

[Viraja]

JignyAsu, Philosoraptor:

Philosoraptor is correct, my question is whether the 'Archaavataras' carry separate manifestation in Vaikuntha?

See below, the incident I described under 'Edit' in the original post - Sri Varamanga appears in the dream of Sri Jeeyar Swamigal and says she is not to be married to Tirupathi Venkateswara but she is the bride of Vanamaamalai Thottadrinatha:

From http://ancientindiantemple.blogspot.com/2010_02_01_archive.html -


The urchava idol of Thayar was in the temple of Vada Venkatam. Once they were arranging for marriage celebration of Venkatesa Perumal with the urchava idol.

Sri Varamangai came in the dream of Sri jeeyar swamigal, and told him she is consort of Vanama malai Perumal. Sri Ramanuja jeeyar brought the urchava idol to this place and celebrated the marriage utsavam of Sri Vanamalai Perumal and Sri Varamangai.

From this, it appears each archaavatara has unique manifestation?

Philosoraptor, thanks for stating about GV's take on it, I'm holding similar view now - that separate manifestation of the Lord - Ram, Krishna, Venkateswara have unique presence in Vaikuntha...

Maybe I can ask the current Jeeyar Swami? ;)

[jignyAsu]

oops..sorry to have missed the main question :D

[Anirudh]

Namaste Aspirant,
My reply might be moving on a different tangent :)

My friend Sreeman Naaraayan takes many Avtaar everyday to protect his devotees. There hasn't been a day, I have failed to feel his presence in one form or other.

Once when I had lost almost all source of help and looked above. To my surprise clouds were taking the form of Nrsimha. The next day I cleared very important phase of life just by one count.
He is with me now patiently watching me typing this.

Jai Sree Raam!!

[smaranam]

My reply might be moving on a different tangent :)

Jai Sree Raam!!
No, not at all. This is how it is. This is exactly how He works. His Hand.


my question is whether the 'Archaavataras' carry separate manifestation in Vaikuntha?
The short answer should be yes, not just for 'archAvatAr' but lIlA avatAr, and svayam rUpa.
* Since the Lord is Absolute, He is non-different from His abode(s).
Since vaikuntha is beyond time and space it is very flexible there is no rule that a devotee always resides in one place
generally there is one ishta form and devotee is perpetually with that form
occasionally lord likes to come in another form that is when we say the devotee relocated to the other abode or is visiting the other abode

when you are ___ i am ___
when you are ___ i am ___
when you are ___ i am ___

and so on

is what i think


do i have shastra backing
yes and no

namaste
om namo bhagavate vasudevaya

shift keys not working

[smaranam]

occasionally lord likes to come in another form that is when we say the devotee relocated to the other abode or is visiting the other abode
Actually, because the Lord is absolute and eternal, ALL of His vigraha are Absolute, and eternal.

So not that the devotee relocated to His other abode, but the form of the same devotee in the other abode is also eternal. SvarUp.

It is not that RAm and KRshNa and Vyankateshwar came and went. How can the unborn be ever born? No question of dying.
They are eternal. Plus, Shri comes with Him, and each time we get to see Her in a corresponding svarUp alongside the Lord's different svarUp.

The fact that we in this world just discovered them does not mean they did not exist.

_/\_

Radhe Shyam
Sita Ram

[Viraja]

Namaste Aspirant,
My reply might be moving on a different tangent :)

My friend Sreeman Naaraayan takes many Avtaar everyday to protect his devotees. There hasn't been a day, I have failed to feel his presence in one form or other.

Once when I had lost almost all source of help and looked above. To my surprise clouds were taking the form of Nrsimha. The next day I cleared very important phase of life just by one count.
He is with me now patiently watching me typing this.

Jai Sree Raam!!

Interesting. :)

[Viraja]

The short answer should be yes, not just for 'archAvatAr' but lIlA avatAr, and svayam rUpa.
* Since the Lord is Absolute, He is non-different from His abode(s).
Since vaikuntha is beyond time and space it is very flexible there is no rule that a devotee always resides in one place
generally there is one ishta form and devotee is perpetually with that form
occasionally lord likes to come in another form that is when we say the devotee relocated to the other abode or is visiting the other abode


Smaranam ji, I am unable to understand it when you say, "the Lord is Absolute". Can you elaborate on that one? Thank you.

[jignyAsu]

Does anyone have a proper reference for this? I heard that Hanuman refused to follow Rama in Sarayu river, to Vaikuntha! I also heard that its because He prefers to worship Sri Rama to the Sriman Narayana worship available in Vaikuntha.

I may have messed up some facts around here.

[smaranam]

Smaranam ji, I am unable to understand it when you say, "the Lord is Absolute". Can you elaborate on that one? Thank you.

praNAm VirajaJi

Absolute means independant and complete in itself, not dependant on anything, not relative, with respect to certain conditions.
So, the Supreme Lord is the Absolute Truth.

I am going to quote some things from the Bhagvatam and Shrila PrabhupAd's purports on the shloka.
Before that, simplest answer as taught by PrabhupAd based on Veda shAstra:

For us mortals, our body is different from the jIvAtmA
because as bhuta, living things, our existence is dependant on the Supreme - ParamAtmA.
So we can say my body is not me
my mind is not me
my buddhi is not me (it is given to me)
my house is not me
my words are not me etc.

However, Parameshwar, the Supreme Lord, is Absolute, Independant, with no higher.
Hence, His potencies are manifest in everything "about Him"
such as:
>>> His dhAm (abode) is Him
VaikuNTha is a name for VishNu, and VaikuNTha is also His abode. Where we can find Him "at home" that is His dhAm

>>> His Holy Names are Lord Himself. The Lord's mercy, grace and guNa - transcendental qualities are fully manifested
in His Holy Names

>>> His words, glories, or KathA is Him. The Shrimad BhAgavat is the literary incarnation of BhagavAn. That is the book- literary bhAgvat. An uttam bhakta is also a mahA bhAgvat. Both glorify Bhagvan.

>>> His body, mind, thoughts, sankalpa, dhAm is all transcendental and non-different from Him.
Why? Because He is absolute, not dependant on any other truth, substance, energy etc. but He owns all
of these and is their source.


REF: (PL. search for the word absolute - till i pull out some quotes in the next post)
SB 1.1.1 (http://vedabase.net/sb/1/1/1/en) - Absolute - from which everything emanates.
SB 11.2.22 (http://vedabase.net/sb/11/2/22/) - Nav yogendra purport to explain “Lord is absolute”

_/\_

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya
shri kRshNAya janArdanAya adhokshajAya gopijana-vallabhAya vanamAlaye paramAtmane
devakinandanAya kamalanAbhAya achyutAya keshavAya jagannAthAya dwArakAdheeshAya rAdhA-ramaNAya shri rAmAya govindAya namo namah:

[smaranam]

REF: (PL. search for the word absolute - till i pull out some quotes in the next post)
SB 1.1.1 (http://vedabase.net/sb/1/1/1/en) - Absolute - from which everything emanates.
SB 11.2.22 (http://vedabase.net/sb/11/2/22/) - Nav yogendra purport to explain “Lord is absolute”



SB 1.1.1, the very first verse of Shrimad Bhagavatam, ends with the famous 'satyam param dhImahi'

"I meditate (dhImahi) on the absolute (param) truth (satyam)."

SB 1.1.1 (http://vedabase.net/sb/1/1/1/en)
oḿ (http://vedabase.net/sb/1/1/1/en) namo (http://vedabase.net/n/namo) bhagavate (http://vedabase.net/b/bhagavate) vāsudevāya (http://vedabase.net/v/vasudevaya)
janmādy asya (http://vedabase.net/a/asya) yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ (http://vedabase.net/a/abhijnah) svarāṭ (http://vedabase.net/s/svarat)
tene (http://vedabase.net/t/tene) brahma (http://vedabase.net/b/brahma) hṛdā (http://vedabase.net/h/hrda) ya (http://vedabase.net/y/ya) ādi (http://vedabase.net/a/adi)-kavaye (http://vedabase.net/k/kavaye) muhyanti (http://vedabase.net/m/muhyanti) yat (http://vedabase.net/y/yat) sūrayaḥ (http://vedabase.net/s/surayah)
tejo (http://vedabase.net/t/tejo)-vāri (http://vedabase.net/v/vari)-mṛdāḿ (http://vedabase.net/m/mrdam) yathā (http://vedabase.net/y/yatha) vinimayo yatra (http://vedabase.net/y/yatra) tri (http://vedabase.net/t/tri)-sargo 'mṛṣā (http://vedabase.net/m/mrsa)
dhāmnā (http://vedabase.net/d/dhamna) svena (http://vedabase.net/s/svena) sadā (http://vedabase.net/s/sada) nirasta (http://vedabase.net/n/nirasta)-kuhakaḿ (http://vedabase.net/k/kuhakam) satyaḿ (http://vedabase.net/s/satyam) paraḿ (http://vedabase.net/p/param) dhīmahi (http://vedabase.net/d/dhimahi)

O my Lord, Śrī (http://vedabase.net/s/sri)Kṛṣṇa (http://vedabase.net/k/krsna), son of Vasudeva (http://vedabase.net/v/vasudeva), O all-pervading Personality of Godhead, I offer my respectful obeisances unto You. I meditate upon Lord Śrī (http://vedabase.net/s/sri)Kṛṣṇa (http://vedabase.net/k/krsna) because He is the Absolute Truth and the primeval cause of all causes of the creation, sustenance and destruction of the manifested universes. He is directly and indirectly conscious of all manifestations, and He is independent because there is no other cause beyond Him. It is He only who first imparted the Vedic knowledge unto the heart of Brahmājī, the original living being. By Him even the great sages and demigods are placed into illusion, as one is bewildered by the illusory representations of water seen in fire, or land seen on water. Only because of Him do the material universes, temporarily manifested by the reactions of the three modes of nature, appear factual, although they are unreal. I therefore meditate upon Him, Lord Śrī (http://vedabase.net/s/sri) Kṛṣṇa (http://vedabase.net/k/krsna), who is eternally existent in the transcendental abode, which is forever free from the illusory representations of the material world. I meditate upon Him, for He is the Absolute Truth.

From purport by A C Bhaktivedanta Swami PrabhupAd:

But reality, of which this is but a shadow, is in the spiritual world. Absolute Truth is in the spiritual sky, not the material sky. In the material sky everything is relative truth. That is to say, one truth depends on something else.

by Śrīla (http://vedabase.net/s/srila) Vyāsadeva: "Since the complete whole or the Absolute Truth is the source of everything, nothing can be independent of the body of the Absolute Truth." Whatever happens to the body quickly becomes known to the embodied. Similarly, the creation is the body of the absolute whole. Therefore, the Absolute knows everything directly and indirectly that happens in the creation.

Therefore, the Absolute Truth is simultaneously one and different. Nothing is absolutely equal with the Absolute Truth, but at the same time, nothing is independent of the Absolute Truth.

----

Now from SB11.2.22 (http://vedabase.net/sb/11/2/22/en) - about the 9 Yogendra - sons of RshabhDeva:


Janmādy asya (http://vedabase.net/a/asya) yataḥ (http://vedabase.net/y/yatah): [SB 1.1.1 (http://vedabase.net/sb/1/1/1/en)] "The Absolute Truth is that from which everything emanates." Similarly, the Īśopaniṣad states:
oḿ (http://vedabase.net/o/om) pūrṇam (http://vedabase.net/p/purnam) adaḥ (http://vedabase.net/a/adah) pūrṇam (http://vedabase.net/p/purnam) idaḿ (http://vedabase.net/i/idam)
pūrṇāt (http://vedabase.net/p/purnat) pūrṇam (http://vedabase.net/p/purnam) udacyate (http://vedabase.net/u/udacyate)
pūrṇasya (http://vedabase.net/p/purnasya) pūrṇam (http://vedabase.net/p/purnam) ādāya (http://vedabase.net/a/adaya)
pūrṇam (http://vedabase.net/p/purnam) evāvaśiṣyate
[Īśopaniṣad, Invocation]
The Supreme Lord, the Absolute Truth, is pūrṇa (http://vedabase.net/p/purna), or complete in Himself.


Therefore the Lord is called vibhu (http://vedabase.net/v/vibhu), or infinitely potent, and we are aṇu (http://vedabase.net/a/anu), or infinitesimal and dependent. This is further confirmed in the Vedic literature by the statement nityo nityānāḿ cetanaś cetanānām/ eko (http://vedabase.net/e/eko)bahūnāḿ (http://vedabase.net/b/bahunam) yo vidadhāti (http://vedabase.net/v/vidadhati)kāmān (http://vedabase.net/k/kaman) (Kaṭha (http://vedabase.net/k/katha)Upaniṣad (http://vedabase.net/u/upanisad)2.2.13 (http://vedabase.net/todo/upanisad/2/2/13/en)). There are innumerable eternal living entities who are eternally and totally dependent upon the supreme singular living entity, the Supreme Lord. That dependence is not an illusion created by material existence, ..., but is an eternal relationship in which the Lord is eternally superior and we are eternally inferior. The Lord is eternally independent, and we are eternally dependent. The Lord is eternally absolute in Himself, and we are eternally relative to His supreme personality.


Śrīla (http://vedabase.net/s/srila) Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī (http://vedabase.net/s/sarasvati) Ṭhākura (http://vedabase.net/t/thakura) has emphasized in this regard that the absolute substance is one and is called Paramātmā (http://vedabase.net/p/paramatma), or the Supersoul. When one has achieved but a partial vision of the Paramātmā (http://vedabase.net/p/paramatma), one's understanding of life is called ātma (http://vedabase.net/a/atma)-darśana (http://vedabase.net/d/darsana), or self-realization...(implying, but not God Realization)

_/\_

Jai Shri KRshNa

[Anirudh]

Namaste SmaranamJi

Now I know i am not the only one to believe so. I can go on and on, with many of similar events in my life. I realized the real meaning of 'Why Fear When I am Here' on last vaikunta Ekadasi.
I have come to conclusion that our devotion should be like that of Paanchaali or Prahallada. The moment the devotee surrenders unconditionally he appears in one form or another and protects the devotee.

[Viraja]

Thank you, Smaranam ji.

OM Sri Krishnaaya Namah!

[Anirudh]

Deleted because of repost!