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jignyAsu
14 February 2013, 02:38 PM
An Advaiti Jeevan MukthA carries his firm realization of "Brahma satyam jagan mitya" till (apparent)death and before final release.

What if before death, he meets with an unfortunate accident and loses his memory? Does he start seeing difference and miss his maha samadhi?

Does he remain a witness to the accident and so the realization is retained somewhere else? Then he should be in realization of being a witness at all times including sleep/dream/swoon. Also he must have forgotten all the shruti pramAnA for sure and so with what certainty will he continue? At this point he has nothing to say that all this is an illusion.

Or is it that he gets divine powers to avoid such incidents?

How would an advaiti view this scenario?

Amrut
15 February 2013, 02:40 AM
An Advaiti Jeevan MukthA carries his firm realization of "Brahma satyam jagan mitya" till (apparent)death and before final release.

What if before death, he meets with an unfortunate accident and loses his memory? Does he start seeing difference and miss his maha samadhi?

Does he remain a witness to the accident and so the realization is retained somewhere else? Then he should be in realization of being a witness at all times including sleep/dream/swoon. Also he must have forgotten all the shruti pramAnA for sure and so with what certainty will he continue? At this point he has nothing to say that all this is an illusion.

Or is it that he gets divine powers to avoid such incidents?

How would an advaiti view this scenario?

Namaste,

Jeevan Mukta is the one who is free while he is alive i.e. in physical body. His association with his body is already dead the moment he is has identified and established himself in and as Supreme Self.

Ashtavakra Gita says that A jnani sees his own body like we see another bodies (i.e. we see other person).

A body is like a shadow. We do not care if the shadow is falling in gutter / drain or if a car runs over the shadow.

Just like a food vomited out of mouth is not taken again and we do not have any Asakti in this vomit, so does jnani has renounced his attachment with his body permanently. So consciousness of Jivan Mukta is not in body and so not in brain but in supreme self.

As the word says, he has already achieved what is to be achieved. After the body drops permanently, you can say he has reached videhi mukti

Aum
IS

Viraja
15 February 2013, 07:45 AM
This is a great question. I too became interested in knowing the right answer(s) after reading the question. Although not from an advaita point of view, I want to give here my humble attempt.

I am reminded of sage Mandavya's story (http://brahmam.com/tag/mandavya/). As one can see from the story, sage Mandavya was wrongly identified as a thief and was impaled on a stake. The story says "Since he was in yoga when he was impaled he remained alive by the power of yoga.". Hence I am given to the belief that if a man of god is in yoga when something befalls him, then due to the power of the yoga he does not lose his memory but becomes a witness to the mishap that happened to him. But I cannot think of what will happen to him when something happens to him when he is not in yoga, at normal circumstances. Then, I think the divine will have warned him before about this event and that this mishap won't happen to him at all. It is said in the story of Sri Adi Sankara when he was in the body of a bird that a Kaabalika tried to cut down his head but then Lord Narasimha appeared in the form of a mountain lion and killed the Kabalika. Owing to the profound spiritual development of the native, god will not let such a mishap as memory loss happen to him.

jignyAsu
15 February 2013, 10:42 AM
Pranams!



A body is like a shadow. We do not care if the shadow is falling in gutter / drain or if a car runs over the shadow.


Gutter/drain - agreed. But the loss of memory is what concerns me. That injury (sorry for continuing to be unpleasant) assuming has made him forget everything including Vedanta and the knowledge to refute superimpositions, what is he left with? That witness is there in everyone..nothing new. However, the realization..where is that retained?



So consciousness of Jivan Mukta is not in body and so not in brain but in supreme self.


This is what is difficult for me to understand. The supreme self is already shining and "he" has "recognized" it. The consciousness has always been emanating..nothing new here. But his realization was new. To me it sounds like this realization is vulnerable.

This would also mean that a jnAni should definetely retain this realization when in sleep, swoon, dream etc. He should necessarily know he is dreaming, while he is dreaming! Do you think so too?

Do you think he will develop special powers for sure then?

jignyAsu
15 February 2013, 10:46 AM
Although not from an advaita point of view, I want to give here my humble attempt.
My question is from Advaita POV only. This is because others consider a distinct Brahman having all auspicious qualities. So, they would say..will God let his happen?..like you have put it. Not that any Advaiti will deny an ishvara saving them...but its not necessary from their POV.



It is said in the story of Sri Adi Sankara ........


But then that was Sri Adi Shankara equipped with a lot of special powers. Would this be applicable to all the advaitis? Meaning is it upto the Ishvara to save all jnAnis? Will all the jnAnis develop such special powers (an answer acceptable to me at this point)

Amrut
15 February 2013, 11:34 AM
Pranams!

Gutter/drain - agreed. But the loss of memory is what concerns me. That injury (sorry for continuing to be unpleasant) assuming has made him forget everything including Vedanta and the knowledge to refute superimpositions, what is he left with? That witness is there in everyone..nothing new. However, the realization..where is that retained?


Namaste,

If you think of Knowledge as just information gained from books, then yes anything can happen, loss of memory and so loss of scriptural knowledge.

Once you realize brahman, it is permanent. it is not temporary after the mind is destroyed. it remains 24 x 7, 365 days.

After knowing you you are, do you need to continue chanting it. e.g. Do you ever do a japa - I am human, etc No.

Only when one needs to sleep - one say auto-suggest - I want ot sleep, I want to Sleep, I am sleeping. After sleeping, does the thought continue? No. You just sleep.



This is what is difficult for me to understand. The supreme self is already shining and "he" has "recognized" it. The consciousness has always been emanating..nothing new here. But his realization was new. To me it sounds like this realization is vulnerable.

This would also mean that a jnAni should definetely retain this realization when in sleep, swoon, dream etc. He should necessarily know he is dreaming, while he is dreaming! Do you think so too?

Do you think he will develop special powers for sure then?

No, Jnani's realization is not vulnerable after the mind is destroyed says Sri Ramana Maharshi. It is said that there are no thoughts in Jnani. He lives upon intuitions - you may find is difficult to digest.

I have personally experienced that as one's surrender to God and the desires decreases, duration of sleep, dream sleep decreases. Dreams are nothing but extinguishing of thoughts. Desires which cannot be fulfilled in waking state are tried to be fulfilled

Jnani does not dream. He lives in thoughtless state when not doing any physical work and works in intuitions when doing any karma. Jnani's body is entirely handled by God's power - Prakurti or simply God. Everything just happens. You will understand if you meditate and experience detachment with thoughts, mind and body, that consciousness does not think or dream.

It's different and from practical standpoint, cannot be digested. But it is true.

Each Jnani is filled with Shakti. It all depends upon divine plan and God whether they use is or not. Some use, some not. IT doe not make any difference. It is said by Sri Ramana Maharshi.

Aum

jignyAsu
15 February 2013, 12:02 PM
Thanks for the detailed posts.



Once you realize brahman, it is permanent. it is not temporary after the mind is destroyed. it remains 24 x 7, 365 days.

Does this realization remain after death then? There seems to be no place in Advaita to accept any thing permanent other than Brahman, let alone an intuition.



It is said that there are no thoughts in Jnani. He lives upon intuitions - you may find is difficult to digest.

I wonder if every Advaiti will agree to this..that one has no thoughts after realization. I think the notion of many is that the jnAni will continue performing his acts like eating etc, thinking but will remain a witness.



Jnani does not dream. He lives in thoughtless state when not doing any physical work and works in intuitions when doing any karma. Jnani's body is entirely handled by God's power - Prakurti or simply God. Everything just happens.

You seem to set a very high standard for all jnAnis. I wonder if all Advaitis [notable ones] agree to this. Irrespective, if special powers handle him, then it means JnAni will be taken care of by the Iswara, till his mahasamadhi...just wanted to know how universal is this idea.

shiv.somashekhar
15 February 2013, 01:29 PM
An Advaiti Jeevan MukthA carries his firm realization of "Brahma satyam jagan mitya" till (apparent)death and before final release.

In other words, you are admitting two different liberations - one during the individual's lifetime and then once again, at death.


What if before death, he meets with an unfortunate accident and loses his memory? Does he start seeing difference and miss his maha samadhi?

Let us take this one step further. If the concept of Moksha is contingent upon one's memory (I am not arguing this), which in turn requires the physical brain to function normally, then how can Moksha work after one's death? By this logic, it has to end at death - don't you think?

jignyAsu
15 February 2013, 02:21 PM
Pramans Shiv.


In other words, you are admitting two different liberations - one during the individual's lifetime and then once again, at death.

Actually this is Advaita POV, which recognizes jeevan Mukthi. The teachers do recognize a maha samadhi also, though they may say that from their perspective there is no life or death anymore.



If the concept of Moksha is contingent upon one's memory (I am not arguing this), which in turn requires the physical brain to function normally, then how can Moksha work after one's death? By this logic, it has to end at death - don't you think?

Definetely. And so the teachers say that whatever is gained will be lost. However it is the difference b/w the two states: Jivan mukthi and mahasamadhi, I was talking about. A Jivan muktha seems to be recognizing the apparent difference/illusion and continues to teach the bonded ones, with the firm realization that nothing but the Brahman exists.

Some others say that he continues watching himself and others as a man would his dreams, "recognizing" well that its a dream. Which means that running away when a tiger chases is also not necessarily being afraid.

What I was wondering is that this realization must be carried somewhere, till maha samadhi and if any teachers have talked about it.

Ra K Sankar
15 February 2013, 11:27 PM
Namaste

A Jnani is the Self. But, at times, when someone moves by or near His body, He may become body-aware with the ego rising to the head, but soon will follow the Self-inquiry merging it back into the Self. At other times, there may just be the ego facing the Self, completely turned inward, which is a mental modification of the Form of Self. So says, Bhagawan Sri Ramana Mahrashi.

Srimad Bhagawatham recounts the body of Jada Bharata, a Self-Realized Sage, being saved by Goddess KaaLi, from being offered in sacrifice. Thus, the body of a Sage is at all times watched over and protected by Ishwara/KaaLi before the ending of His bodily fate.

Ra K Sankar

devotee
16 February 2013, 12:55 AM
Namaste,

A Self-realised person is Self/Brahman Itself. The body/mind is Prakriti and its destruction doesn't affect Self as the Heart-knot is destroyed.

If the realisation is at mental level it is worthless. So, let the mind be destroyed, let the brain be destroyed, let the entire body be destroyed ... so what ? The things given by Prakriti has to go back to Prakriti. The Purusha/Self/Brahman is unaffected with all these happenings.

OM

Amrut
16 February 2013, 02:32 AM
Thanks for the detailed posts.

Does this realization remain after death then? There seems to be no place in Advaita to accept any thing permanent other than Brahman, let alone an intuition.

Namaste,

What you call as death, is dropping of body. what is the difference between a dead body and a livING body?

Soul - Jiva

Eyes are instruments, even dead body is equipped with instrument, but not vision. this vision is given by Jiva. the power of Jiva is like that of moon. It is not it's own, but actually a reflection of Sun (Atma / Brahman)

Like snake casts off it's skin and never looks back to see whether skin is lying in dust, wet by rain or getting decomposed, Jnani after the body is dropped, does not come back again in physical body and does not care about it.

When Still in Physical body, Jnani is still in Brahman, but, say a thread is still attached with the body. This is Ego, but not real one. It is pseudo ego, necessary for retaining the body.

Sri Ramakrishna says:

Imagine a person living in small room, which has windows to the (infinite) outer world. Jnani has such a window or door through which he/she can go to samadhi with no feeling of body and this world (maya) and can come back again to Physical consciousness.

you are talking from practical standpoint.

It is the consciousness that matters. where is the consciousness? in body or in brahman. Then it does not make a difference where it is

Shankaracharya transmigrated from his body to a body of a dying king and stayed for six months. How is this possible? did he loose his memory? it's not stored in brain, but in Jiva - sukshma sharira.

Yes, In advaita, even intuition is absent. There is no second.


I wonder if every Advaiti will agree to this..that one has no thoughts after realization. I think the notion of many is that the jnAni will continue performing his acts like eating etc, thinking but will remain a witness.

Sri Ramana Maharshi in Who am I, upedesha SAram, 40 verses on Reality says that the mind of Jnani is Brahman itself. In Brahman there re no thoughts.

How can you be an observer at the same time act. you can observe that God is working through you. If you take this control in your hands, then you are not surrendered to God / Brahman.

shankaracharya says, that Jnana destroys all karmas

I do not remember exact verse, but it says something like:

GYAnAgnI satva karmANI bhasmasAta kRute tathA

so when all karma - agami, prarabdha, sanchit are destroyed, what is there to do and to suffer (bhoga) ?

In Vivekchudamani, Shankaracharya says, Destruction of desire is nothing but liberation. (pleae do no task verse no, I have weak memory ;) )

Desires are in mind. Tatva Body says Mind is nothing but continuous flow of thoughts. When one goes beyond mind and thoughts and desires are completely destroyed, then what is left.

What you call as karma - performing acts, etc are spontaneous and completely handled by God.

If you cannot accept this and that Prarabdha is not destroyed, then in the beginning verses of Vivek chudamani, shankaracharya says,

An arrow already shot, and has left it's bow, it cannot be stopped. So does prarbhdha which has been decided before birth and before Jnani has realized his/her true nature cannot be un-done. Even Jnani has to pass through it. But unlike ignorant person, Karma and Karma-phala does not touch Jnani, as Jnani is not associating itself with body, mind, ego or Jiva. His has associated himself with Brahman.

If self realization is not permanent, then why does one reject this worldly pleasures, wife, kids, family, society? Just for temporary bliss and peace? It is permanent, no matter you are in body.

If Self Realization can only be obtained at the time of death, and then person will die after realization, then who will meditate to die? So there is Jivan Mukta.

I cannot find a verse in shastras, as I have limited study, but will will believe, if I say that God has given freedom of jnani that they can cast of for drop their body at will.

Sri Ramakrishna said this o Swami Vivekananda that after you realize true nature and be in advaita sthiti, you will be able to drop body by yog Bala.



You seem to set a very high standard for all jnAnis. I wonder if all Advaitis [notable ones] agree to this. Irrespective, if special powers handle him, then it means JnAni will be taken care of by the Iswara, till his mahasamadhi...just wanted to know how universal is this idea.

it is not my standard. It is said in Shastras like I have explained above.

now, regarding mahasamadhi, there can be some thoughts

In Advaita, there is mano laya and mano nasha.

Lets first take the later, Mano nasha

After mind is destroyed, and consciousness has merged with Brahman, no attachment with body can remain. Maha-samadhi is just dropping off the body like snake casting it's skin.

Sri Ramakrishna says that,

Jnani comes back to this world upon order of God for the kalyANa of mankind. For that he retains his body. To be connected with his body, Sri Ramakrishna says that Jnani keeps Pseudo Ego. Shankaracharya and Sukhdev kept 'ego of knowledge', some keep 'ego of bhakta'. In addition, some keep interest in some things like keeping interest in making food (like Sri Ramakrishna and Sr Ramana Maharshi), just to retain a connection with body.

Swami Ramkushdasji also said that to talk or interact with someone, he has to come down.

--------

The thing is that we have a habit of seeing physical body and not the atma tatva inside it. We see Idol, but not the energy (shakti) inside it. If Idol is the body then whom do we call into it (aavaahana) - PraaNa pratishthaa

the thing is that every where karma, karma and karma is given importance. Renunciation is not talked about often. staying still is not propogated like social service. All the modern Gurus, may be genuine), are all focusing on service and raise a foundation for spreading teachings.

Does anyone coming on TV channels like astha, sanskar talk about Bhagavad Gita - directly teaching verse-by-verse. Quite rare isn't it? They talk about srimad bhagavad and then when bhagavad talks about tatva Jnana, they skip. Public is more interested in listening to stories. So ramanaya and other stories like puranas can attract large crowds, but how many are interested if we talk about Bhagavad Gita, which gives moksha? Are there any discourses on Yog Vasistha or do they talk about Ashtavakra Gita. It does not talk about karma, but is said from the grave of karma. It is not for common masses.

They have a big stage, an orchestra, singers, and promoters, proper mic and speaker system. this attracts lots of crowd. I do not say they are doing wrong. What i say is that, if they talk about renunciation and not doing any work, their entire foundation will fall.

Saints who talk about renunciation do not attract huge crowds, and generally do not go in public.

----

We have habit of doing and seeing, and not being still an observing what we do. So we cannot understand detachment, unless God makes you to experience.

for guru it's just casting of body like snake skin. But for devotees, Guru is of prime importance. Kabira says that if both God and Guru appears in front of you at a tie, then whom shall you bow first?

He says, I will bow first to my Guru how has shown me a path to God.

Entire Guru Gita talks about praise of Guru. It says, one can stay in advaita sthiti in front of everyone, but one has to be in dvaita, like a dAs (servant) in front of Guru.

so for disciples and devotees, Maha samadhi is very important. though a Guru can work in subtle bodies, they miss him as they cannot physically meet him anymore.

Second alternative:

Mind is not destroyed, but sleeps temporarily.

One experiences samadhi, but again mind rises and pulls consciousness down, bringing it to duality. Again mind goes to sleep and consciousness goes beyond mind. This goes on till mind is destroyed.

Now suppose if such a person or any devotee of God dies, what matters, according to Gita, is that what is the last desires, predominant desire at the time of death. If a person is in samadhi or chanting Gods name and able to ignore pain of death (separation of body) and that it is the only desires to chant Gods name and be one with him, then that person attains Moksha . Vaikuhtha, Shiva dham, etc. He does not return back to this world. He is free from cycle of birth and death.

Best understanding can come only from experience, by the grace of God, which can come in meditation. Only after direct experience doubt is destroyed

I hope you get my POV.

Aum
Indiaspirituality.

Amrut
16 February 2013, 02:38 AM
Other members - Viraja ji, Ra K Sankar ji have a point.

What Devotee ji and shiv.somashekar ji have said in two lines is the essense of my entire story :)

Aum
IS

jignyAsu
18 February 2013, 07:08 AM
Other members - Viraja ji, Ra K Sankar ji have a point.

What Devotee ji and shiv.somashekar ji have said in two lines is the essense of my entire story :)

Aum
IS

Yes. Thank you all for your thoughts. What I could summarize from all the points is that a jnAni's realization is unthinkable, but can only be experienced by austerities, sadhana and repeated enquiry. He is totally 100% detached from the world and doesn't care even a bit about his body/mind/"life". This again proves that those who just take up enquiry of Aham Brahmasmi alone, without doing any other sadhana for purification, detachment, do not understand Advaita.

On such a jnAni, even Ishwara smiles.

Lot of common points b/w all paths :)

shiv.somashekhar
18 February 2013, 12:26 PM
He is totally 100% detached from the world and doesn't care even a bit about his body/mind/"life".

Technically, per Advaita, at this point there is no He (Jiva) nor the world (Jagat). So the words detached/body/mind/life do not apply.


This again proves that those who just take up enquiry of Aham Brahmasmi alone...

Aham Brahmasmi is not an enquiry.

jignyAsu
18 February 2013, 01:01 PM
Technically, per Advaita, at this point there is no He (Jiva) nor the world (Jagat). So the words detached/body/mind/life do not apply.

I am talking from our POV and not a jnAni's POV...on how to identify a jnAni..or atleast how to filter out pseudo jnAnis.

So, if I see a "jnAni" indulging in all sorts of sensual pleasures (as I see it :cool1: ) but says everything that you said above...can I assume that he's not one?

shiv.somashekhar
18 February 2013, 01:06 PM
I am talking from our POV and not a jnAni's POV...on how to identify a jnAni..or atleast how to filter out pseudo jnAnis.

So, if I see a "jnAni" indulging in all sorts of sensual pleasures (as I see it :cool1: ) but says everything that you said above...can I assume that he's not one?

From your POV, there is simply no way to know if one is a Jnani or not and that includes Ramana, Ramakrishna and everyone else. We just cannot know for certain. People believe, because they want to believe in someone or something and not because they found concrete evidence.

I would also add that while stories of Ramana et al., sound fascinating, they were mostly written by ardent devotees and that goes to bias. Their stories always mirror their own images of how a Jnani would act and talk and may not necessarily be true. The same enthusiasm is also the basis of the various miracle stories in India.

jignyAsu
18 February 2013, 01:43 PM
From your POV, there is simply no way to know if one is a Jnani or not.

So, let me be direct with you, Shiv Ji. Can it be possible that one is indulging in sex and alcohol and also be a realized jnAni?

I do accept your argument in this context that accepting Ramana Maharishi or anyone as a jnAni is purely personal belief..but I am merely talking of the possibility of the above scenario. Is that possible?

What Praman (proof) do you hold for the jnAnA? Vedas, "Sanatana Dharma", some saint/thinker, self-experience(or lack of it)?

shiv.somashekhar
18 February 2013, 01:58 PM
So, let me be direct with you, Shiv Ji. Can it be possible that one is indulging in sex and alcohol and also be a realized jnAni?

In other words, you are expecting a Jnani to behave a certain way - with a list of dos and don'ts. If so, the problem becomes simple. The individual in question is a Jnani if he conforms to the list, else he is not.

The point I was making earlier is, there is no basis for such a list. No Sruti pramana or common sense will do, as any trait you can think of can also be seen in regular people and skilled magicians.

jignyAsu
18 February 2013, 02:20 PM
In other words, you are expecting a Jnani to behave a certain way - with a list of dos and don'ts. If so, the problem becomes simple. The individual in question is a Jnani if he conforms to the list, else he is not.

The point I was making earlier is, there is no basis for such a list. No Sruti pramana or common sense will do, as any trait you can think of can also be seen in regular people and skilled magicians.


Hmm. Actually this question was pertaining to Advaita, which finds its roots in the Vedanta. So, I can safely say that Sri Adi Shankara, the original propounder of the Advaita philosophy, was uncompromosing towards keeping sense-control, purity and extreme detachment as both a means and an identifiying measure for a jnAni [maybe with some negligible explainable deviation but never an addiction]

But then without Sruthi pramana what else do I have other than words like: "No thought no world"; "I am that" etc? In other words without common sense or Shruti or anyone, how do I or you know for sure that it is true? Maybe it is just a delusion or denial...how do we know it is final?

devotee
19 February 2013, 12:02 AM
Namaste Jignyasu,



But then without Sruthi pramana what else do I have other than words like: "No thought no world"; "I am that" etc? In other words without common sense or Shruti or anyone, how do I or you know for sure that it is true? Maybe it is just a delusion or denial...how do we know it is final?

Those who are JnAni won't go on claiming that. The Upanishads say, "He who says that he knows Brahman" actually doesn't know.

After Self-realisation, indulging in sensual pleasures is unthinkable. Can you give any example where this has happened ? Please don't believe people like "Nityananda" even if he has been made a MahAmandaleshwar in Kumbh.

If you want to know yourself if you are a JnAni or not ... if there is even an iota of doubt ... then you are not. This JnAn is not an ordinary one. Once it shines, there is no doubt left.
OM

Amrut
19 February 2013, 01:02 AM
Namaste Jignyasu ji,

Narasimh Mehta says that a saint is the one in whose presence one feels peace.

It is documented that even the most disturbed minds would calm down in Sri Ramana Maharshi's presence.

Same thing happens when you read any book written by them.

When I read Sri Ramakrishna's Jivan charitra and Sri Ramana's Maharshi's upadesha, no matter how disturbed I was (emotionally hurt, etc), my mind would calm down.

Faith may not build on day one. It takes time. doubts rational thinking might be there in the beginning, as it is our human nature, but once you have developed faith, then it's time to drop the negative approach and take Guru's / saint's words seriously and follow them.

another thing that I have marked is that, many times, I did not ask doubts, but still they were answered and that whatever a Saint says happens, i.e. in meditation you experience that thing sooner or later. It might not be the next day, but it happens sooner or later.

Remember, ajnani cannot know jnani, as Jnani is a sthiti and not a way of life. For the sake of explanation you can say that Jnan is 'mAnsIc dasha' and not 'dishA'

A saint is like a plain white cloth. Even a small stain looks prominent. We can behave in the same way that a saint behaves, but no body questions us. But it is different for a saint.

Saint is a role model, an inspration to masses. So a saint, even if he has full control over senses has to keep distance from opposite sex.

Regarding the scams, sex scandals, etc, a Guru cannot be realized. Actually all the padvis (titles) including shankaracharya are given to a intellect and not the state of mind. Does a Saint receive a new name when he/she is self realized. So Swami is also a sadhaka and not necessarily a Siddha. Swamis generally have clarity (of mind nad in shastras) and know their goal. Hopefullt they even meditate regularly.

A Guru may find a disciple has clarity and good orating powers. So he orders him to give a discourse. But then a fan following starts and disciple without asking his Guru starts giving his own discourses. Now he acts a sa Guru. disciple's guru will not interfere, as he has already taught what needs to be taught. A swami may have 100 desires and out of 100, he may have uprooted 90, but 10 are still left to be uprooted. Three if them may be sex, money and fame. So it is life offering or luring a a sick person by offering sweets. Sooner or later he will slip, and there is no one to guide him. It is duty of disciple to go to Guru and not the opposite.

It is this a-paripakva sadhaka who make mess. They may go sadhana, have knowledge of scriptures, clarity, management powers, etc, but still they have not attained 100 % clarity and have not reached end of road. Soon they side-track. Rest follows, disaster waiting to happen.

You cannot stay with all saints personally to trust and believe, faith has to be there, but in kali yuga, we are often cheated. But thats what the time we live in. Can't help it. In ancient times, kings used to leave palace and meditate in forest huts. Now, saints quit forest huts, come to cities and built palace-lie ashrams. The entire cycle is revered. Unfortunately, we cannot help it.

Practically, we try to see a perfection, which is not possible. there will be loop-holes, there will be some weakness. We will have to neglect that weakness (if they are minor ones) and have faith.

As earlier said, if you feel peace in his presence and your doubts are solved, you have hit the right note.

It's trial-n-error. You pic a book, if you like it, move ahead. If not, take another book. If you find philosophy and the way of teachings, you move ahead. Except God nothing is perfect. So practically, I would find the best possible alternative.

Aum
IS

jignyAsu
19 February 2013, 08:18 AM
After Self-realisation, indulging in sensual pleasures is unthinkable. Can you give any example where this has happened ?

Namaste devotee! I agree and appreciate your holding purity, sadhana etc as a prereq and an identification mark for a jnAni.



You cannot stay with all saints personally to trust and believe, faith has to be there, but in kali yuga, we are often cheated. But thats what the time we live in. Can't help it.

Namaste IS. Hope you are doing better.

You see, a part of my conclusion before was that Advaiti sanyasis hold purity, detachment etc as both a prereq and also an identification mark of a jnAni.

My this remark was a restpectful disagreement with Shivji who thought that these are not valid marks or a sadhana. I maintained that original Advaita distinguishes itself from certain modern philosophies by upholding these marks. And since the topic was about Advaita, this justifies the summary.

After all, Sri Adi Shankara in his Bhashya for "athAto brahma jignYAsA" maintains that "atha" means a precondition that includes discrimination b/w eternal and non-eternal, renunciation of all desires, self-restraint and the desire of release.

Therefore realization and addiction to senses are like day and night a/c to the original system.

Amrut
19 February 2013, 10:17 AM
Namaste IS. Hope you are doing better.

You see, a part of my conclusion before was that Advaiti sanyasis hold purity, detachment etc as both a prereq and also an identification mark of a jnAni.

My this remark was a restpectful disagreement with Shivji who thought that these are not valid marks or a sadhana. I maintained that original Advaita distinguishes itself from certain modern philosophies by upholding these marks. And since the topic was about Advaita, this justifies the summary.

After all, Sri Adi Shankara in his Bhashya for "athAto brahma jignYAsA" maintains that "atha" means a precondition that includes discrimination b/w eternal and non-eternal, renunciation of all desires, self-restraint and the desire of release.

Therefore realization and addiction to senses are like day and night a/c to the original system.

Namaste,

Thank you, I am felling better than yesterday.

As I know, the only thing that is different is that sanyasins have desire for liberation (vairagya), that too not because they want to run away from responsibility (vivek-yukta vairagya). Later everything else follows. As time passes, if one meditates on Brahman, then one will develop ShaTa-sampatti, 2 sAdhan, mental purity as time passes. In that way, generally, sanyasins are always one step ahead of us, though there are some householders who are mentally more and advanced than sanyasins.

But as time passes, if one looses focus on goal or one takes things for granted, there are every chances of slipping.

If we keep testing on scientific basics or only vow to believe if you personally see it, then it will be very difficult to progress in spirituality, specially in today's time.

We adapt everything from the west and today we cannot live without adapting their technology and their way of living e.g. telephone, electricity, internet. But that is on physical plane / vyavahAric plane / practical approach.

But when it comes to spirituality, we need not take their approach. Mind was considered great great great hypothesis and it is only before 50 years or so that it is widely accepted and there is a medicated medical line in main stream medical profession. Science evolves, but in turn it contradicts it's previous claims which it had established 10 years ago. So (practical) truth is not eternal.

We accept anything that is tried and trusted and give a definite, guaranteed predictable output every time we apply or use it. Same is the case here in spirituality. Why not accept a concept, an approach, a way, a taught by great saints accumulated in shastras. Shastras are a collection of experiences of innumerable saints since time immemorial. Mind operates in the same way that it used to operate 5000 years ago.

e.g. you feel insulted when someone insults you. That was the same case in ancient times (Ramayana, Mahabharata)

If you want to eat sweets, you will eat what is available today. Same thing is applicable to ancient common men. Only difference is the type of delicacies. Way of life may be different, but shastras, which directly deal with mind, which is often ignored in today's life, is practically applicable today also.

I have given my thoughts on how to practically find a Guru form our POV.

The only problem is that purity, etc are internal states and a person who is not pure may pretend to be pure, but in that case, you wont feel the feel or spiritual vibrations that you have a chance that you feel peace in the presence of truly pure saint. Until you experience some kind of spiritual feeling in his presence, doubts cannot be nullified.

The path of advaita is such that one becomes peaceful from within and becomes neutral. Such is the nature of sadhana. The nature of advaita sadhana is to be neutral to any impulses. So that is definitely applied to our life and the inner peace cannot be robbed by others. A Sadhaka can feel deep peace and bliss during meditation and when one advances, this flow remains unbroken during day time too. You can only give what you have. So a saint can only give peace as everything other is absent in him. Spiritual vibrations will life you. In his presence one can easily meditate.

Outwardly a saint can be short tempered, but that anger will be short lived and you still can ignore it.

I like this statement - Drop the container and Catch the Content.

Prayer before meeting any saint helps. Also daily prayer to God to show you a path and direction will be helpful. This is my practical approach.

Aum
IS