illusion & honour

[dharma321]

In Bhagavad Gita it says - "If you don't fight you will lose your honour and people will talk about it for _ages_".

-Why should one care about honour, when all is illusion perceived via sense organs?
- Caring for 'honour' implies having an 'ego' - so why is he being told to fight instead to 'meditate' and get rid of the 'ego' - which is the basis for all the illusion?

[wundermonk]

Greetings,

The term "illusion" needs to be clarified further. Am I to presume you intend to question the Advaitic interpretation of the verse in question?

In any case, the BG itself answers this question in few ways (need to dig up the verse and purport, maybe later). They are:

(1)The show must go on. The world will go on with us or without us and we should do our part to leave the world in a better position than how we found it. Human birth is rare indeed for the self. One should make use of it to the fullest extent.

(2)Krishna himself is the best exemplar of one having to do one's duty. Krishna himself is greatness to the fullest extent. He has no unfulfilled desire. Yet, he chooses from time to time to incarnate affirming his will as it pleases him and his devotees. Why should Krishna incarnate? If he did NOT incarnate, he is no different from a deist deity. His incarnation neither diminishes nor enhances him, yet he does his duty.

(3)Krishna further states that wherever a righteous person is found, other people are motivated by experiencing such righteousness. So, there is this positive cascading effect whenever one person discharges his dharmic duty.

BTW, do you happen to be Buddhist?

[dharma321]

Yes, I am talking about Advaita.
Your reply relates to one following the 'Karma' path.
What about 'Jnana' path?
Is it that Arjun was a kshatriya and so he had to follow the karmic path?

No, I don't happen to be a Buddhist.

__additonally__
-Why must the show go on?
What's the use of dreaming/imagining a universe with an earth which has people living on it - suffering and going through same mundane monotonous things everyday, just to realize one day or in one life that all is an illusion.

What pleasure does the imaginer/dreamer derive by imagining/dreaming a universe (universes maybe?) with (one universe if there are many) having a planet earth and making it real with its powers, where poor people live and go through same things mentioned above e.g. most of them when young do same things sleep-eat-study-play...sleep-... and when matured do same things sleep-eat-make money...sleep-... . Some people (maybe lucky?) find out that all these stuff is useless, renounce them and sit to meditate and attain 'moksha'. What's the point in all this?

-Who derives what from all this and why is there a need to derive anything at all?
Human body also can't be said a rare miracle with all its filth and maintenance.

-It seems according to all these philosophies (not talking about only BG) is that life is like a 'Game' - you come play on earth earn/lose so called 'karmic points', and move on to the appropriate level until you realize all this is useless and make efforts to attain moksha. What's the use of all these things? Is it that so called 'God' likes to play games for fun?

[dharma321]

what's up? why is anyone not replying to my previous reply!?

[savithru]

Both dharma and Brahma are important. Yes, the bitter truth is that this world is an illusion and its not real and one must renounce everything but we should not forget that we are here to do God's work. You escaped this world and achieved freedom but what about others? They also need to be prepared to receive Brahma Jnyana, that's why its important to work and establish the truth to every look and corner of the world.

Arjuna was a Kshatriya and its duty is to do war and if he deviates from this path then its adharma and no one said that if you're a Kshatriya you'll not receive Brahma Jnyana and hence both dharma and Brahma are important.

We are living in a virtual reality i.e. if you kick the wall it still hurts and this world was created to return us back to fullness so its true everything what you do here is a waste but its not a waste if ultimately its helping us to have progress in our spiritual life.

[sanathan]

In Bhagavad Gita it says - "If you don't fight you will lose your honour and people will talk about it for _ages_".

-Why should one care about honour, when all is illusion perceived via sense organs?
- Caring for 'honour' implies having an 'ego' - so why is he being told to fight instead to 'meditate' and get rid of the 'ego' - which is the basis for all the illusion?

Why do you want to mix Gita verses with your "illusion" theory which doesn't have any base in same Gita?

Can you show me some verse from Gita which supports your "illusion" theory?

[sanathan]

Yes, the bitter truth is that this world is an illusion and its not real and one must renounce everything but we should not forget that we are here to do God's work.

Don't you see any self contradictions? if world is illusion ,then the God's work is also illusion , then why should you care it.

You can not just preach something without giving a validity to that very preaching..but you are doing that now, your preaching of "world is illusion" itself becomes illusion and can not prove anything. :)

Imagination at its peaks I say.

[brahman]

In Bhagavad Gita it says - "If you don't fight you will lose your honour and people will talk about it for _ages_".

-Why should one care about honour, when all is illusion perceived via sense organs?
- Caring for 'honour' implies having an 'ego' - so why is he being told to fight instead to 'meditate' and get rid of the 'ego' - which is the basis for all the illusion?

Dear dharma,

Welcome to HDF.

The world we experience as actual is only phenomenal, but it has a status of its own as an empirical fact of everyday life. Sankara matches the certitude ascertained by the promiscuous mixing of these two different references (named Sat and Chit in Vedanta) as “(Cow’s) Milk in Dog Skin Bag.”

As, such one has to respect the role that is assigned by the nature or social circumstances, and has to carry out one’s duties in conformity with one’s intrinsic nature or Vaasanas. This is called svadharma in Bhagavad Gita, one of the major doctrinal contributions of this philosophical composition.

Also refer to: BG: III-21, that is;



Whichever may be the way of life that a superior man adopts- that very one is by the other people (followed). What he makes his guiding principle, the world too behaves even according to the same.

==============

Likewise it is important to understand the delicate interplay between the interdependent notions such as phenomenon and noumenon, which are apparently two but in reality are the two distinct facets of the Self same Truth.Love:)

[realdemigod]

In Bhagavad Gita it says - "If you don't fight you will lose your honour and people will talk about it for _ages_".

-Why should one care about honour, when all is illusion perceived via sense organs?
- Caring for 'honour' implies having an 'ego' - so why is he being told to fight instead to 'meditate' and get rid of the 'ego' - which is the basis for all the illusion?

This has only answer in Karma yoga. Krsna also calls him coward and tells him not to yield to unmanliness because his duty is to fight in a war. Krsna wasn't asking Arjuna to fight from his ego but rather as a Kshatriya to do his rightful duty.A man who doesn't do his duty yields to unmanlinees as per BG.

Just without digressing much it's the same as Samurai code of Bushido. Honour is their life but they have no ego. I hope you got what I'm trying to say.

[sumitbagvar]

In Bhagavad Gita it says - "If you don't fight you will lose your honour and people will talk about it for _ages_".
Here honour means believe in self. If Arjun didn't fight he will loose believe in self (Atma).

[savithru]

Don't you see any self contradictions? if world is illusion ,then the God's work is also illusion , then why should you care it.

You can not just preach something without giving a validity to that very preaching..but you are doing that now, your preaching of "world is illusion" itself becomes illusion and can not prove anything. :)

Imagination at its peaks I say.

Yes, this world only exists inside our minds, its not out there independent of us and also who said I am doing any work, we don't have free will and we do not act on our own and as Krishna says in Bhagvad Gita, work is given as free to all of us, if you think you're doing your works on your own will then you're in ignorance.

Both Brahman and Dharma is important, its not right to care about one and forget the other. We should care about this world and also about Brahman.

Isha Upanishad,verse1


1. All this is for habitation by the Lord, whatsoever is individual universe of movement in the universal motion. By that renounced thou shouldst enjoy; lust not after any man’s possession.

Isha Upanishad, verse2


2. Doing verily works in this world one should wish to live a hundred years. Thus it is in thee and not otherwise than this; action cleaves not to a man.


This world belongs to God, it is his world, this is his body and he has every authority on us and the world is alive because of him and you like it or not you're already doing his works. The empirical world is an illusion but there is a real world of gods out there who are responsible for the retrospective orchestration of this empirical reality and these gods are in and around us and they care about humans and this empirical reality which is an illusion was created to make us prepare for the realization of Brahman and achieve self-righteousness, God is preparing everyone and sowing his seeds to make us realize Brahman and that's why we have to care about this world, that's how the contradiction is resolved.

If he wanted us to renounce everything and not care about this world then why would he give directions to us in the second verse of the Isha Upanishad where he says,

2. Doing verily works in this world one should wish to live a hundred years. Thus it is in thee and not otherwise than this; action cleaves not to a man.

I have thought about these things before you have.

[jthomasnaz]

In Bhagavad Gita it says - "If you don't fight you will lose your honour and people will talk about it for _ages_".

-Why should one care about honour, when all is illusion perceived via sense organs?
- Caring for 'honour' implies having an 'ego' - so why is he being told to fight instead to 'meditate' and get rid of the 'ego' - which is the basis for all the illusion?





Because fighting is meant to symbolize meditating on God to become aware of atma which destroys all focus of selfish human ego. Honour symbolizes peace and bliss which is experienced by becoming aware of atma.

[harih]

Very interesting query by the OP.

The answer͵ in my view͵ lies here.

Sri Krishna is not your average idealist. He talks about the infinite Brahman͵ about Samatvam etc but in a well grounded way. He is very practical.
At one point he says “Sareerayatraapi cha tey na prasiddhyed akarmanah“.

So all these things͵ Sareerayatra͵ keerthi etc have their value in the world. It helps the yogi to be perceived as a honourable man. It also helps humanity who follows the pack. Hence the Yogi has to choose to do honorable karma only.

But at an inner level such things like honour are worthless. Hence the Yogi is advised “Samam pashyan hi sarvatra...“
“ Tulyanindaa stutir maunee...“
so that his actions within the framework of his karma͵ are divested of hankering of any kind.

[the sadhu]

In Bhagavad Gita it says - "If you don't fight you will lose your honour and people will talk about it for _ages_".

-Why should one care about honour, when all is illusion perceived via sense organs?
- Caring for 'honour' implies having an 'ego' - so why is he being told to fight instead to 'meditate' and get rid of the 'ego' - which is the basis for all the illusion?

Namaste

Arjuna does not know that, and so he should in absence of arms jnana, fullfill his given duty which is to be a king... even if he knew his nature, it is the body that has a dharma, not the self, so the body should always follow its nature, which is a beings dharma. Arjuna's dharma is to be a king, and kings fight to protect there country.

Your thinking is the very reason for such verses, because even though in truth nothing really matters, we must fulfill our nature, our dharma.
All is Brahman, all is God, all Beings are kin. So naturally when Arjuna sees the armies he spent want to kill them, it is like killing a part of you.
But none the less Krishna reminds Arjuna he is a cog in the machine, and he must fulfill his bodily duties because those are the bodies purpose in creation.
To fulfill our God given nature, whether it be as a labourer, a skilled worker, a warrior, or a mystic.

People who yearn for enlightenment are mystics, there job is to fully realize Brahman and teach others spirituality. Arjuna however had a warrior dharma, it is his job to protect the weak, and rule over others rightiously, this is a very different dharma than that of mystics, who are normally the people who study yoga, and Advaita.

[NayaSurya]

This has only answer in Karma yoga. Krsna also calls him coward and tells him not to yield to unmanliness because his duty is to fight in a war. Krsna wasn't asking Arjuna to fight from his ego but rather as a Kshatriya to do his rightful duty.A man who doesn't do his duty yields to unmanlinees as per BG.

A good thought RD.

Beloved Krishna knows this moment is going to ripple down to us. He knows how important His own incarnation is for the world and our own understanding.

So He needs righteous behavior in this moment to be set in stone as the example...

As precious and seldom as a human's incarnation is, Beloved Krishna's incarnations are infinitely, supremely and ultimately more rare.

~

Now, why? What's the reason if we are all One, and indeed we are...then why all this seemingly endless concern over all of us "getting it"?

This is where the words of Beloved Krishna end and our own ability to understand them, come in to play.

How many of us not only know the answer but come to realize it fully in a life time?

These instructions and lessons would not be important at all if it they weren't so extremely important. :P

But they are... because our stories can not play out in total chaos, and Beloved Krishna's words speak of not only doing your duty as a soldier, but also as a Father or Mother, a lawyer, a doctor...the dog walker...and the billy goat.

The partial answer could be that, though this is a Divine Drama, and we just actors upon a very grand stage...

Honor, justice and duty here are very real things, as real as the grass and trees...they uphold this realm where in we exist.

It must be upheld.

If we all just simply stopped our jobs, duties and relationships knowing in our heart this is just all a very elaborate illusion the entire realm would decay and cease to function correctly.

So that's why He went through all that trouble...so that some kagillion years later in some far flung corner of the planet... a Mother would come to read those words and know she can not just fly off the planet, but must maintain and uphold her duty to the children she is bound to serve.

Duty bound to Beloved.

Whenever it gets too much, the world is a very difficult place sometimes...i am not immune to being upset to deal with something mundane here...that i feel is over the top. I catch myself saying...Really?

So i'm going to be covered in poison sumac during my vacation?? Really?

There's more to it, i feel...somethings we have to do, endure...which implies there is more going on than just a game.

Sorry for the partial answer, some things i feel aren't completely answerable, nor understandable in my current state of being. <3

[jopmala]

Why do you want to mix Gita verses with your "illusion" theory which doesn't have any base in same Gita?

Can you show me some verse from Gita which supports your "illusion" theory?

namaste

valid question from you but there is no answer from any one.

I want to add some more lines with your questions

1. every one talk of incarnation of krishna in this world which is nothing but illusion but then why krishna incarnates in an world of illusion and who is krishna to incarnate.what about Ganesh, Vishnu or other deities. Is krishna superior to them ?

[the sadhu]

What are you guys talking about.
Krishna discusses jnana yoga in chapter 7 &8

he says all this is his lower nature, but ha eternal nature is imperishable and eternal.
His lower nature that appears as many but isn't, that is the illusion.
his eternal nature is consciousness, as consciousness is the only thing that can be, and not be subject to decay.