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yajvan
05 March 2007, 02:03 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~~
On this earth we are prone to action ( kriya) . Even in inaction there is action (BG 3.5) Each of our acts influences the total environment . There is no independent action.
Swami Krishnananda says it this way, ' everything is all things and anything is everywhere'. Hence every thing is connected , yet we ( in ignorance , that would be me) see's Diversity and multiplicity. This is what we wish to remove, that leaves in Moksha.

Even if you think you are in your home and perform actions, without touching another being, this action reaches all corners of Creation. Why do most spiritual conversations sooner or latter disucss action? Because it is that which binds the individual. And being without action (performed by the 3 guna's) suggests one has arrived at Moksha.. That is, established in the SELF, outside this field of cause and effect. So , action is a common subject of discussion.

If I may, lets discuss action and two concepts. Lets start with the wisdom of the Bhagavad Gita - Krsna informs Arjna , ' You have control over action alone, never over its fruits' (BG 2.47) Krsna also suggests skill in action as the resolution to this, but we will save this for later.

Krsna also says, …unfathomable is the course of action (BG 4.17). What does this mean , and have you experienced this? Simply stated , actions go far and wide and the results of those actions fructify at different times. Its as if you are walking down the street and you find something on the ground, say a gold coin, something of good fortune. Or a person walks across the street and (unfortunately) gets hit by a car. At that instant no action was induced to find the coin, it was there. Like that actions are unfathomable, as they come to fruition in time, space and cause. [ this has happened to me more then I wish to count - that is the wack in the head!].
This is apurva, or unseen potency which bring about events from past actions, either individually or collective actions of a family group or society.

Lets take the first idea, 'You have control over action alone, never over its fruits' (BG 2.47). What does this mean? Lets again take an example. A baseball player steps up to bat , he is in good shape, exercises, stays fit, practices, has excellent body-mind coordination and comes to bat with the right intention of getting a hit. Now, he has control ( some say freedom) over the action he chooses e.g. plays baseball, gets in shape, and all the things to increase his potential of getting a hit, but when its all said a done and he swings the bat, it is no longer under his control. If he gets a single, double, home run, or even of a Hawk sweeps down and takes the ball out of the air thinking it's prey, is now left to the universe and all the unfathomable actions , laws of nature that plays the role here i.e. Apurva is now in play.
Like that, our actions can fructify in multiple ways and when something curious happens we think its mystical, or fate, or luck or etc. etc. yet it's the result of the universe responding to us, to past actions.

So how does one gain favor to increase one's potential of success so the universe sees us a friend and supports our desires? How does one remove oneself from the binding force of action-reaction?

If there is interest, we can pursue this with another post and go a bit deeper. I first wanted to set the stage and see if HDF members had this experience and will find the knowledge of interest.


pranams,

Ganeshprasad
05 March 2007, 05:03 PM
Pranam Yajvan ji



Hari Om
~~~~~~
Lets take the first idea, 'You have control over action alone, never over its fruits' (BG 2.47). What does this mean? Lets again take an example. A baseball player steps up to bat , he is in good shape, exercises, stays fit, practices, has excellent body-mind coordination and comes to bat with the right intention of getting a hit. Now, he has control ( some say freedom) over the action he chooses e.g. plays baseball, gets in shape, and all the things to increase his potential of getting a hit, but when its all said a done and he swings the bat, it is no longer under his control. If he gets a single, double, home run, or even of a Hawk sweeps down and takes the ball out of the air thinking it's prey, is now left to the universe and all the unfathomable actions , laws of nature that plays the role here i.e. Apurva is now in play.
Like that, our actions can fructify in multiple ways and when something curious happens we think its mystical, or fate, or luck or etc. etc. yet it's the result of the universe responding to us, to past actions.




pranams,



This is a good subject to discuss, not wanting to sound pedantic, could you please explain where it is said we have control over actions?

We certainly have right to perform action but if we had the control over action then surely the result would be as desired. When one is bating be it baseball cricket or any other sport, the strike would have been instinctive and not precise and thus any number of result would ensue from it.

bhagvat gita further explains

pancaitani maha-baho
karanani nibodha me
sankhye krtante proktani
siddhaye sarva-karmanam

adhisthanam tatha karta
karanam ca prthag-vidham
vividhas ca prthak cesta
daivam caivatra pancamam



Learn from Me, O Arjuna, the five causes, as described in the Saamkhya doctrine, for the accomplishment of all actions.
The place of action, the performer, the senses, the endeavor, and ultimately daivam. (18.13/14)

sarira-van-manobhir yat
karma prarabhate narah
nyayyam va viparitam va
pancaite tasya hetavah

Whatever action, whether right or wrong, one performs by thought, word, and deed; these are its five causes. (18.15)


Jai Shree Krishna

yajvan
05 March 2007, 09:52 PM
Pranam Yajvan ji
This is a good subject to discuss, not wanting to sound pedantic, could you please explain where it is said we have control over actions?

Jai Shree Krishna

Namaste,
pls consider looking at Chapt 2 verse 47 of the Gita. ( this is Swami Prabhupada's interpretation... my teacher says it differently, yet the intent rings true)


karmany evadhikaras te
ma phalesu kadacana
ma karma-phala-hetur bhur
ma te sango 'stv akarmani
karmani--prescribed duties; eva--certainly; adhikarah--right; te--of you; ma--never; phalesu--in the fruits; kadacana--at any time; ma--never; karma-phala--in the result of the work; hetuh--cause; bhuh--become; ma--never; te--of you; sangah--attachment; astu--be there; akarmani--in not doing.

The key word is 'right'... karmani is actions, not so much perscribed duties, yet I respect Swami-ji's words. Yet note, 'never the fruits'

pranams,

Ganeshprasad
06 March 2007, 10:37 AM
Namaste,
pls consider looking at Chapt 2 verse 47 of the Gita. ( this is Swami Prabhupada's interpretation... my teacher says it differently, yet the intent rings true)


karmany evadhikaras te
ma phalesu kadacana
ma karma-phala-hetur bhur
ma te sango 'stv akarmani
karmani--prescribed duties; eva--certainly; adhikarah--right; te--of you; ma--never; phalesu--in the fruits; kadacana--at any time; ma--never; karma-phala--in the result of the work; hetuh--cause; bhuh--become; ma--never; te--of you; sangah--attachment; astu--be there; akarmani--in not doing.

The key word is 'right'... karmani is actions, not so much perscribed duties, yet I respect Swami-ji's words. Yet note, 'never the fruits'

pranams,

Pranam Yajvan ji

thank you unfortunately i still fail to see where he is sugesting that we have control over the action, right yes, but contriol? here i bring the tranlation of swami prabhupada including the purport


TRANSLATION
http://www.asitis.com/gif/bump.gifYou have a right to perform your prescribed duty, but you are not entitled to the fruits of action. Never consider yourself to be the cause of the results of your activities, and never be attached to not doing your duty.


PURPORT
http://www.asitis.com/gif/bump.gifThere are three considerations here: prescribed duties, capricious work, and inaction. Prescribed duties refer to activities performed while one is in the modes of material nature. Capricious work means actions without the sanction of authority, and inaction means not performing one's prescribed duties. The Lord advised that Arjuna not be inactive, but that he perform his prescribed duty without being attached to the result. One who is attached to the result of his work is also the cause of the action. Thus he is the enjoyer or sufferer of the result of such actions.
http://www.asitis.com/gif/bump.gifAs far as prescribed duties are concerned, they can be fitted into three subdivisions, namely routine work, emergency work and desired activities. Routine work, in terms of the scriptural injunctions, is done without desire for results. As one has to do it, obligatory work is action in the mode of goodness. Work with results becomes the cause of bondage; therefore such work is not auspicious. Everyone has his proprietary right in regard to prescribed duties, but should act without attachment to the result; such disinterested obligatory duties doubtlessly lead one to the path of liberation.
http://www.asitis.com/gif/bump.gifArjuna was therefore advised by the Lord to fight as a matter of duty without attachment to the result. His nonparticipation in the battle is another side of attachment. Such attachment never leads one to the path of salvation. Any attachment, positive or negative, is cause for bondage. Inaction is sinful. Therefore, fighting as a matter of duty was the only auspicious path of salvation for Arjuna.

if we have the control over our actions then i think the result would be as desired.

Jai Shree Krishna

sm78
06 March 2007, 11:19 AM
Hi GP,

I think control over action simple means applying skillful judgement in action. When slapped I have the choice of slapping back or producing the other cheek.

We certainly have control over what we choose do, but not on the results...what's the confusion? I'm not quite getting it ....

atanu
06 March 2007, 11:27 AM
Pranam Yajvan ji

---TRANSLATION
http://www.asitis.com/gif/bump.gifYou have a right to perform your prescribed duty, but you are not entitled to the fruits of action. Never consider yourself to be the cause of the results of your activities, and never be attached to not doing your duty.


------
if we have the control over our actions then i think the result would be as desired.

Jai Shree Krishna


Namaskar to all,

Freedom over action is available only to those who do action without doing anything, while established in the Self.

One who is established in the knowledge that the powers of Prakriti alone act, sees inaction in action and action in inaction.

A difficult proposition, indeed. Since we consider wrongly all action to be done by the 'ego I', which desires positive results. Is it possible to renounce the fruits of action in such a case?

Om Namah Shivayya

Ganeshprasad
06 March 2007, 02:29 PM
Hi GP,

I think control over action simple means applying skillful judgement in action. When slapped I have the choice of slapping back or producing the other cheek.

We certainly have control over what we choose do, but not on the results...what's the confusion? I'm not quite getting it ....


Pranam sm


May be I am making fuss over nothing for that I am sorry.

I can see by your example how we may have control over what we may choose.

Question is any given event of our making? Would we have chose someone to hit us?

Our choice is a reaction to an event, in your example, where is the question of control over the event itself.


karya-karana-kartrtve
hetuh prakrtir ucyate
purusah sukha-duhkhanam
bhoktrtve hetur ucyate

Nature is said to be the cause of all material activities and effects, whereas the living entity is the cause of the various sufferings and enjoyments in this world.(13.21)

I guess I am trying to make a point that while we have the right (adhikar) to perform an action to a given circumstance, our action would have been a reaction only.

Jai Shree Krishna

Ganeshprasad
06 March 2007, 02:44 PM
Namaskar to all,

Freedom over action is available only to those who do action without doing anything, while established in the Self.

One who is established in the knowledge that the powers of Prakriti alone act, sees inaction in action and action in inaction.

A difficult proposition, indeed. Since we consider wrongly all action to be done by the 'ego I', which desires positive results. Is it possible to renounce the fruits of action in such a case?

Om Namah Shivayya

Pranam Atanu ji

True indeed and the result is further bondage in prakriti.

therefore Krishna says

yat karosi yad asnasi
yaj juhosi dadasi yat
yat tapasyasi kaunteya
tat kurusva mad-arpanam


O Arjuna, whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer as oblation to the sacred fire, whatever charity you give, whatever austerity you perform, do all that as an offering unto Me. (See also 12.10, 18.46) (9.27)


By this attitude of complete renunciation (or Samnyasa-yoga) you shall be freed from the bondage, good and bad, of Karma. You shall be liberated, and come to Me. (9.28)

Jai Shree Krishna

yajvan
06 March 2007, 09:52 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Pranam sm

I can see by your example how we may have control over what we may choose. Jai Shree Krishna


Namaste Ganeshprasad,
this is exactly the point, we have the liberty of choice. This is characterized as our 'right'.
[ not sure I like this word as its a bit bold, but we will go with it ]

After that its the fullness of the Universe on how it responds, as actions are far , deep and wide on how it bares fruit for the native. And our past actions play a key role.

The next point once we get comfortable with this, is What happens when there is no 'two' for action and reaction to happen? When one becomes Brahman , Tad Ekam, That One. Then where can there be a re-action if there is only one? This is how the Laws of nature change as knowledge is gained..

Just like physics - we have Newtonian physics, then we learn more,
and we have Einsteinian physics, then Quantam physics, then String theory and Super-sting theory. Has the Universe changed at all? It’s the same.
What changes is our level of consciousness and understanding about the Universe. Like that, as we unfold our full potential , different laws become Applicable to us… this is the Greatness of this Being. Unfathomable.

pranams,

sm78
07 March 2007, 12:33 AM
I guess I am trying to make a point that while we have the right (adhikar) to perform an action to a given circumstance, our action would have been a reaction only.

Jai Shree Krishna

That is true, at least as long as duality persists.

atanu
08 March 2007, 01:01 AM
Namaskar to all,

Freedom over action is available only to those who do action without doing anything, while established in the Self.

One who is established in the knowledge that the powers of Prakriti alone act, sees inaction in action and action in inaction.

A difficult proposition, indeed. Since we consider wrongly all action to be done by the 'ego I', which desires positive results. Is it possible to renounce the fruits of action in such a case?

Om Namah Shivayya


On the hand, the following is ultimately true.

True freedom from forces of Guna and of fate is available.

6.7. He who is devoted to the path of action, whose mind is quite pure, who has conquered the self, who has subdued his senses and who has realised his Self as the Self in all beings, though acting, he is not tainted.


Om Namah Shivayya

Ganeshprasad
08 March 2007, 10:52 AM
On the hand, the following is ultimately true.

True freedom from forces of Guna and of fate is available.

6.7. He who is devoted to the path of action, whose mind is quite pure, who has conquered the self, who has subdued his senses and who has realised his Self as the Self in all beings, though acting, he is not tainted.


Om Namah Shivayya

yoga-yukto visuddhatma
vijitatma jitendriyah
sarva-bhutatma-bhutatma
kurvann api na lipyate

yoga-yuktah--engaged in devotional service; visuddha-atma--a purified soul; vijita-atma--self-controlled; jita-indriyah--having conquered the senses; sarva-bhuta--to all living entities; atma-bhuta-atma--compassionate; kurvan api--although engaged in work; na--never; lipyate--is entangled.




One who works in devotion, who is a pure soul, and who controls his mind and senses, is dear to everyone, and everyone is dear to him. Though always working, such a man is never entangled.


A Karma-yogi whose mind is pure, whose mind and senses are under control, and who sees one and the same Self in all beings, is not bound (by Karma) though engaged in work. (5.07)

Pranam Atanu ji

Please allow me to correct, the verse quoted is 5.07 and not 6.7

I have also brought two translation of the verse slightly different from one another.

That said it is important to note the freedom from action is not posible, the conscious self is gatisil, and trapped in this sansar, forced to act as if mounted on a machine!

There is no escaping the fact that we have to train our mind to be pure and bring the senses in control desires are insurmountable, there is an old Hindi song I like which sums it up (hajro Khawish esi hoti hai ke har khawish pe hi dum nikle) thousands of desires are as so that each one kills to fulfill.

So when krishna says
ma phalesu kadacana

That is for our own benefit of training the mind to give up the build up of further karma and when we offer all our deeds be it mind body speech we set us free from karma
but this is not easy simply lip service is not enough, i may fool the world but the lord who dwells in the heart knows all unless I have given up the desires and hate in me there is no freedom from action, I simply have to be sincere to myself.


Kayena vacha manasendriyairva
Buddhyatmana va prakrite swabhavath
Karomi yadyad sakalam parasmai
Narayanayeti samarpayami

Whatever I do with my body, speech, mind or with other senses of my body, or with my intellect and soul or with my innate natural tendencies I offer (dedicate) everything to Lord Narayana


Jai Shree Krishna

atanu
08 March 2007, 11:25 AM
yoga-yukto visuddhatma

vijitatma jitendriyah
sarva-bhutatma-bhutatma
kurvann api na lipyate

yoga-yuktah--engaged in devotional service; visuddha-atma--a purified soul; vijita-atma--self-controlled; jita-indriyah--having conquered the senses; sarva-bhuta--to all living entities; atma-bhuta-atma--compassionate; kurvan api--although engaged in work; na--never; lipyate--is entangled.

One who works in devotion, who is a pure soul, and who controls his mind and senses, is dear to everyone, and everyone is dear to him. Though always working, such a man is never entangled.
------

Jai Shree Krishna


Namaskar Ganesh Prasad Ji,

Yes I made a mistake.

But you can easily see that 'sarva-bhutatma-bhutatma', does not exactly mean dear to all. It means one whose self is self of all. Three other translations are given below.

A Karma-yogi, whose mind is pure, whose mind and senses are under control, and who sees one and the same Spirit in all beings, is not bound by Karma though engaged in work. (5.07)

(7) He who is trained in the way of works, and is pure in soul, who is master of his self and who has conquered the senses, whose soul becomes the self of all beings, he is not tainted by works, though he works.

Endowed with yoga, pure in mind, controlled in body, a conqueror of the organs, the Self of the selves of all beings, - he does not become tainted even while performing actions. (5.07)


Three variants all differ from the translation of Prabhupada, which is always unique, as if tailored to his own wishes. In this case, the difference is not small, the whole philosophy may get altered, if the importance of adorable to all is not understood.Many may understand this to be a case of a very popular man, whereas only the Self of all is adorable to all.

However, the verse that I wanted to cite was:

Uddharedaatmanaatmaanam naatmaanamavasaadayet;
Atmaiva hyaatmano bandhuraatmaiva ripuraatmanah.

6.5. Let a man lift himself by his own Self alone; let him not lower himself, for this self alone is the friend of oneself and this self alone is the enemy of oneself.


The point is that Lord himself puts the responsibility on a man.

And on this account what Yajvan Ji is indicating, is ultimately correct. The ultimate freedom rests with us. Whether we chose to be controlled by Gunas or to lift the self by the Self, is upon us.

Gita 5.26. Absolute freedom exists on all sides for those self-controlled ascetics who are free from desire and anger, who have controlled their thoughts and who have realised the Self.



Jai Shree Krishna
Om Namah Shivayya

yajvan
08 March 2007, 01:31 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

On the hand, the following is ultimately true.
6.7. He who is devoted to the path of action, whose mind is quite pure, who has conquered the self, who has subdued his senses and who has realised his Self as the Self in all beings, though acting, he is not tainted.
Om Namah Shivayya

Namste Atanu Banerjee,
this is quite important and thank you for bringing it up i.e. conquered the self. This is when real devotion begins, without all the 'noise of the self' pulling one here and there.
Subdued the senses , comes when the self is lost to the SELF... trying to subdue the senses on their own is a noble cause, yet difficult - as the senses operate within the field of the senses, doing thier job.
Here' s my point - for eon's - people have been trying to subdue the senses on thier level ( taste, smell, feel, etc). This has stalled our society from producing many more enlightenend beings and frustrated many a sadhu who perhaps thought ' I just am not trying hard enough and need even more tapas' . To , this a new birth , and trying agin will happen. It is the 'skill in action' which is key.What is that skill, yogastah kuru karmani, says Krsna, and this occurs by being without the 3 gunas. This is the skill that gets one on the path.

pranams,

Ganeshprasad
08 March 2007, 05:31 PM
However, the verse that I wanted to cite was:

Uddharedaatmanaatmaanam naatmaanamavasaadayet;
Atmaiva hyaatmano bandhuraatmaiva ripuraatmanah.

6.5. Let a man lift himself by his own Self alone; let him not lower himself, for this self alone is the friend of oneself and this self alone is the enemy of oneself.


The point is that Lord himself puts the responsibility on a man.

And on this account what Yajvan Ji is indicating, is ultimately correct. The ultimate freedom rests with us. Whether we chose to be controlled by Gunas or to lift the self by the Self, is upon us.

Gita 5.26. Absolute freedom exists on all sides for those self-controlled ascetics who are free from desire and anger, who have controlled their thoughts and who have realised the Self.



Jai Shree Krishna
Om Namah Shivayya


Could not agree more.


but just as Yajvan ji points out Arjun also had his doubts

cancalam hi manah krsna
pramathi balavad drdham
tasyaham nigraham manye
vayor iva su-duskaram

For the mind is restless, turbulent, obstinate and very strong, O Krsna, and to subdue it is, it seems to me, more difficult than controlling the wind.(6.34)

Jai Shree Krishna

atanu
09 March 2007, 07:37 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Namste Atanu Banerjee,
this is quite important and thank you for bringing it up i.e. conquered the self. This is when real devotion begins, without all the 'noise of the self' pulling one here and there.
----

pranams,

Namskar,

And I do not think that conquering the self happens without devotion. I think it is impossible --- it would seem a futile and useless thing to do then.

Om Namah Shivayya

atanu
09 March 2007, 07:44 AM
Could not agree more.


but just as Yajvan ji points out Arjun also had his doubts

cancalam hi manah krsna
pramathi balavad drdham
tasyaham nigraham manye
vayor iva su-duskaram

For the mind is restless, turbulent, obstinate and very strong, O Krsna, and to subdue it is, it seems to me, more difficult than controlling the wind.(6.34)

Jai Shree Krishna


Namskar,

Yes Ganesh Prasad Ji,

I know it. Often it becomes dark, as if there is no way out.

But my Guru says: Surrender. Put all responsiblity on the Self, who is Guru and who is God. The strength is there from where your weaknesses have sprung due to ignorance. Take the road back and find out the source of ego I and you will be welcomed by the real I.

Uddharedaatmanaatmaanam naatmaanamavasaadayet;
Atmaiva hyaatmano bandhuraatmaiva ripuraatmanah.

6.5. Let a man lift himself by his own Self alone; let him not lower himself, for this self alone is the friend of oneself and this self alone is the enemy of oneself.


Om Namah Shivayya

yajvan
09 March 2007, 12:27 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namskar,

And I do not think that conquering the self happens without devotion. I think it is impossible --- it would seem a futile and useless thing to do then. Om Namah Shivayya

Namaste Atanu,
Thank you for the post... Now this is a curious condition. This 'self' of wants, desires, and afflictions can be overcome via techniques and the SELF can be realized. Now, what is not possible as I am taught, is the progression to God Consciousness and then to Brahman Consciousness,
tht is the full blossoming of Enlightenment. This was my conversation on the 7 states of consciousness.
Yet the inital relization of SELF can come without bhakti. Please ask your guru on this for confirmation. Most of the people on this HDF are of the spirit and have this intent on their Ishatadevata so this is not an area of concern. Yet this is not mandatory for Part 1 of ones journey to turiya establishment. It can be done through pure discrimination ( vivika). Yet does one become His instrument (nimitta-matam)?

I call your attention to Chapt 9 of the Bhagavad Gita by Srila Prahbupada, he calls this out in his book, Bhagavad-gita As It Is (page 448, after his commentary on verse 9.2) I am not a follower of Srila, yet I read his works and others to always gain a POV. As I also take instrution from my treacher, My teacher doe not suggest do not be devoted. He informs me that bhakti requires full focus and clarity of the mind. This does not come until the SELF is established. Can I not be devoted before then? Sure one can practice, yet the SELF-established-one now has the credentials for the blossoming of this to occur. Only good can come of this.

vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam yaj jnanam advayam - Those who are actually knowers of the Absolute Truth know that the SELF is realized in 3 different phases as Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan - Srimad Bhagavatam

pranams,

Ganeshprasad
09 March 2007, 03:24 PM
Pranam Atanu ji



Namskar,
Yes Ganesh Prasad Ji,

I know it. Often it becomes dark, as if there is no way out.



When darkness envelops, paths disappear, way out not in sight, what should one do?
May be we can take cue from nature, when night falls it is time to take rest, and as sure as night the day would follow, a new beginning fresh and ready to go.
Unfortunately we forget what binds us so it is business as usual, so the kal chakra goes on.




But my Guru says: Surrender. Put all responsiblity on the Self, who is Guru and who is God. The strength is there from where your weaknesses have sprung due to ignorance. Take the road back and find out the source of ego I and you will be welcomed by the real I.


You are blessed for you have a guru to guide what chance those who have none, what road what path what fate awaits?



Krishna says thus

adhas cordhvam prasrtas tasya sakha
guna-pravrddha visaya-pravalah
adhas ca mulany anusantatani
karmanubandhini manusya-loke

The branches (of this world tree of Maya) spread below and above (or all over the cosmos). The tree is nourished by the Gunas; sense pleasures are its sprouts; and its roots (of ego and desires) stretch below in the human world causing Karmic bondage. (15.02)

He also gives the way out

na rupam asyeha tathopalabhyate
nanto na cadir na ca sampratistha
asvattham enam su-virudha-mulam
asanga-sastrena drdhena chittva

The real form of this tree cannot be perceived in this world. No one can understand where it ends, where it begins, or where its foundation is. But with determination one must cut down this tree with the weapon of detachment.

Tough, very tough

Take the road back, so says Krishna the jagat guru

tatah padam tat parimargitavyam
yasmin gata na nivartanti bhuyah
tam eva cadyam purusam prapadye
yatah pravrttih prasrta purani


So doing, one must seek that place from which, having once gone, one never returns, and there surrender to that Supreme Personality from whom everything has began and in whom everything is abiding since time immemorial.










Uddharedaatmanaatmaanam naatmaanamavasaadayet;
Atmaiva hyaatmano bandhuraatmaiva ripuraatmanah.

6.5. Let a man lift himself by his own Self alone; let him not lower himself, for this self alone is the friend of oneself and this self alone is the enemy of oneself.

So why does man constantly lowers him self, why?

Why would he act like an enemy?

What choice does he have when mounted on this machine forced to act, acting always in the pursuit of happiness, which eludes him forever.

Keeping this in mind how does he lift himself by what method one search from where there is no return?

Jai Shree Krishna

Om Namah Shivayya

atanu
10 March 2007, 08:45 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Namaste Atanu,
Thank you for the post... Now this is a curious condition. This 'self' of wants, desires, and afflictions can be overcome via techniques and the SELF can be realized. Now, what is not possible as I am taught, is the progression to God Consciousness and then to Brahman Consciousness,
tht is the full blossoming of Enlightenment. This was my conversation on the 7 states of consciousness.
Yet the inital relization of SELF can come without bhakti. Please ask your guru on this for confirmation. Most of the people on this HDF are of the spirit and have this intent on their Ishatadevata so this is not an area of concern. Yet this is not mandatory for Part 1 of ones journey to turiya establishment. It can be done through pure discrimination ( vivika). Yet does one become His instrument (nimitta-matam)?

------pranams,

Pranam,

I doubt your assertion seriously that 'Yet this is not mandatory for Part 1 of ones journey to turiya establishment. It can be done through pure discrimination ( vivika)'. How many are established in Advaita Turiya and how many are Jnanis?

The problem is that the Self is still being considered in association with I-Me-Mine. The Self has no I-Me-Mine.



Turiya is ONE AND ALONE. On its attainment, who will worship whom? Whereas the Third, the Pragnya -- is Sarvesvara --- the worshippable.

Mandukya Upanishad

1. OM is this imperishable Word. OM is the Universe, and this is the exposition of OM. The past, the present and the future, all that was, all that is, all that will be, is OM.
Likewise all else that may exist beyond the bounds of Time, that too is OM.

2. All this Universe is the Eternal Brahman, this Self is the Eternal, and the Self is fourfold.

-------
5. When one sleepeth and yearneth not with any desire, nor seeth any dream, that is the perfect slumber, who is become Oneness, who is wisdom gathered into itself, who is amde of mere delight, who enjoyeth delight unrelated, to whom conscious mind is the door, Prajna, the Lord of Wisdom, He is the third.

6. This is the Almighty, this is the Omniscient, this is the Inner Soul, this is the Womb of the Universe, this is the Birth and Destruction of creatures.
7. He who is neither inward-wise, nor outward-wise, nor both inward- and outward-wise, nor wisdom self-gathered, nor possessed of wisdom, nor unpossessed of wisdom, He Who is unseen and incommunicable, unseizable, featureless, unthinkable, and unnameable, Whose essentiality is awareness of the Self in its single existence, in Whom all phenomena dissolve, Who is Calm, Who is Good, Who is the One than Whom there is no other, Him they deem the fourth ;

He is the Self, He is the object of Knowledge.

End of Citation


What is the object of knowledge and what is the object of worship is clearly delineated in Mandukya Upanishad. If One still sees anoher, then where is the Self, which is uncuttable and unpartitionable?

Let us please wait till realizing the Self, since this is not a matter which can be resolved by debate.



I call your attention to Chapt 9 of the Bhagavad Gita by Srila Prahbupada, he calls this out in his book, Bhagavad-gita As It Is (page 448, after his commentary on verse 9.2) I am not a follower of Srila, yet I read his works and others to always gain a POV. As I also take instrution from my treacher, My teacher doe not suggest do not be devoted. He informs me that bhakti requires full focus and clarity of the mind. This does not come until the SELF is established.


No doubt that bhakti cannot be attained till established in the Self, since God is the Self. However thhis is not equal to attaining the object of knowledge after which one becomes immortal, which is advaita -- one without a second. If a second self remains there it is no more a Turiya.

In fact, it is first essential to know the ADVAITA PRAGNYA, before one can reach ADVAITA TURIYA. And before these the Vaisvanaro Self and then Taijjassa Self must be known. The world soul is Agni Vaisvanaro.

Om Namah Shivayya

atanu
10 March 2007, 11:03 AM
From my experience, the moment I attempt to control an emotion or suppress it, it gives it more power.

In meditation, if I am too frustrated I will work through levels until I can get to meditation. If I am very aggitated, start with movement and slowing the breath, some exercises. Instead of forcing myself to sit and ultimately being frustrated at some illusion.

Sometimes I visualize the emotions or thoughts tumbling out the Eye into the Universe. Like leaves blowing out a window into the sky. Eventually, they go away and Peace settles in. In the past, I had been very legalistic (ie ego) about how I was supposed to rigidly meditate and ended in failure more often than not. I try to start with where I am, and accept all my shadows.

For me, it is all about the moment. If I can accept the exact moment as it is, I can move inward. Holding onto or forcing anything gets me nowhere.

And always keeping the goal not to accomplish anything in the personal realm, but just to dance with the Divine.

Namaste MG,

If one has to pass an exam, can one give up learning math, since it appears to be tough? Frustration is part of the game. It is about these difficulties I talked about in the very beginning (if you remember?). All hidden desires come up so that you can examine them and discard them in the light of one desire --- Peace ie. God.

You are correct, however. Arjuna mentioned about the problems that you are mentioning.

Meditation is not forcing anything. Till there is effort it is sadhana. But sanatana dharma scriptures do still egg us on towards the object of knowledge which remains as full, just beneath the thoughts of the turbulent mind.

How can one be in the moment, if one has no mastery over mind? Thoughts will surely take you to past and to future like a dry leaf is moved by the wind. Knowing that the Self is infininitely stronger than the mind, only takes you forward.

There are two ways:
Surrender praying to God that this is beyond me and praying for His intervention.
Or, Effort with patience.

I will suggest: Shradhaa and Saburi, Faith and Patience together.

Om Namah Shivayya

atanu
10 March 2007, 11:07 AM
From my experience, the moment I attempt to control an emotion or suppress it, it gives it more power.

In meditation, if I am too frustrated I will work through levels until I can get to meditation. If I am very aggitated, start with movement and slowing the breath, some exercises. Instead of forcing myself to sit and ultimately being frustrated at some illusion.

Sometimes I visualize the emotions or thoughts tumbling out the Eye into the Universe. Like leaves blowing out a window into the sky. Eventually, they go away and Peace settles in. In the past, I had been very legalistic (ie ego) about how I was supposed to rigidly meditate and ended in failure more often than not. I try to start with where I am, and accept all my shadows.

For me, it is all about the moment. If I can accept the exact moment as it is, I can move inward. Holding onto or forcing anything gets me nowhere.

And always keeping the goal not to accomplish anything in the personal realm, but just to dance with the Divine.


Namaskar,

And your post and Arjuna's lament (in Gita) proves that how it is impossible to attain Turiya (object of knowledge which gives immortality) without faith and God's intervention. Lord himself says in Gita: surrender to me with all your mind and I will give you knowledge.

To attain Turiya, based on mental discrimination only, is like trying to fold the sky (borrowed expression from Svet. Upanishad).

Om

atanu
10 March 2007, 11:20 AM
-----
-----And always keeping the goal not to accomplish anything in the personal realm, but just to dance with the Divine.

Yes dear MG,

This itself, if adhered to at all times, is freedom.

Om Namah Shivayya

yajvan
10 March 2007, 02:30 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Pranam,

I doubt your assertion seriously that 'Yet this is not mandatory for Part 1 of ones journey to turiya establishment. It can be done through pure discrimination ( vivika)'. How many are established in Advaita Turiya and how many are Jnanis?

The problem is that the Self is still being considered in association with I-Me-Mine. The Self has no I-Me-Mine.

Namaste Atanu,
thank you for the post and various parts of the Upanishads. You are correct the SELF has no i or me ( I use small i) ... of this , there is no doubt. This is not the case for the discussion. The SELF needs to be experienced by itSELF, without activity. This can happen by transcending and stablizing this experience over time.

Yet I have not suggested that the SELF is being considered with me-mine-ours-yours or any duality. This is not my point, and as I have agreed to the SELF needs to realize itSELF by itSELF...this is pointed out in the UPanishads and Adi SHankara's commentaries. My point is , for this to happen, one's devotion is not a key ingredient in baking this cake. I will leave it there and we can develop this over time. I respect your postion on this... my goal is not to convert any thoughts, just bring the knowledge I have been granted to our discussions.

pranams,

atanu
10 March 2007, 11:26 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Namaste Atanu,
thank you for the post and various parts of the Upanishads. You are correct the SELF has no i or me ( I use small i) ... of this , there is no doubt. This is not the case for the discussion. The SELF needs to be experienced by itSELF, without activity. This can happen by transcending and stablizing this experience over time.

Yet I have not suggested that the SELF is being considered with me-mine-ours-yours or any duality. This is not my point, and as I have agreed to the SELF needs to realize itSELF by itSELF...this is pointed out in the UPanishads and Adi SHankara's commentaries. My point is , for this to happen, one's devotion is not a key ingredient in baking this cake. I will leave it there and we can develop this over time. I respect your postion on this... my goal is not to convert any thoughts, just bring the knowledge I have been granted to our discussions.

pranams,

Namaskar Yajvan Ji,

I reciprocate that I respect your understanding and position. Differences are always the result of not talking of the same thing.

The Self I am talking about is ONE. The object of knowledge, knowing which one is granted immortality. This Self is not my self or Yajvan's self. The Self I am talking cannot be the object of consciousness since it is beyond the consciousness (in which the world is dissolved). When the world itself is dissolved in Pragnya, what remains in the Self? Definitely it is inconcievable and even indescribable.

The point is that this Self (as described in Mandukya Upanishad) is Advaita and Brahman. This Self is thus Param Atma.

And thus I do believe that this Self, which grants immortality can be known by mere mental discrimination. Also, is it possible to transcend to this Self, without worshipping Sarvesvara Pragnya --- ?

Respects. And Regards.

Om Namah Shivayya

yajvan
11 March 2007, 12:48 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaskar Yajvan Ji,

I reciprocate that I respect your understanding and position. Differences are always the result of not talking of the same thing.

The Self I am talking about is ONE. The object of knowledge, knowing which one is granted immortality. This Self is not my self or Yajvan's self. The point is that this Self (as described in Mandukya Upanishad) is Advaita and Brahman. This Self is thus Param Atma.

And thus I do believe that this Self, which grants immortality can be known by mere mental discrimination. Also, is it possible to transcend to this Self, without worshipping Sarvesvara Pragnya --- ?
Om Namah Shivayya

Namaste Atanu,
Yes, I see your point and concur... there is only one SELF. This is the Fullness of Bhuma. This SELF is consciousness itSELF, pure consciousness - this is confirned in the Yoga Vasistha, again and again. So, the experience of IT is not my consciousness experiencing THE consciousness, because it is one and the same. We now can have a conversation because we have established common ground, and I comprehend your point of view.

Yes, it is possible to transcend to this SELF and experience IT as pure silence. Over time it gets established in our nervious system , and then we do not have to close our eyes anymore to do this, it is lived every day and this silence is with us all the time. This is available to all that seek it.
So many techniques , so many ways to contact this Silence. Blessed are those that have a guru that can lead the way.
Now my point, this Silence to be experienced within ones being does not need bhakti. I have done this and can say it is possible for all to experience, I am nothing special ( cosmic lint as my friends have told me!), and can understand how this clarity is key for higher levels of spiritual development, it is the foundation.

Yet it is my humble opinion that reaching this Silence, His Grace is given to do this. When one becomes 'awake' to this phenomenon, bhakti starts in it's infancy and grows over time, but was not an entry fee to start.
[ It is said, that the SELF picks you first, then you proceed to it as if YOU made the choice ! ]

Just as the sun shines on this earth for all to have, like that, this Silence is for all to have. My teacher instucts me, to experience a personal relationship with Him, with ones Ishtadevata, this Silence must be established, then one's mind , really one's being is now set for this realationship to be developed, this is the part that does not come by itself i.e. the entry fee is required. The entry fee, is to establish purity of mind, clarity, silience, pure consciousness, then this can focus on devotion, service, bhakti to one's Ishta.

Now why would this be? It is because He is most subtle, most refined, most unbiquitious, that it takes the grooming of the senses, the perception, the intitution to be most refined and cultured to percive this... The Upanishds say this over and over. ( happy to bring these example to the forum). He is most subtle, just as one talks of His location in the heart, being a fraction of that of a human hair.

We of gross intellect will miss this subtleness, this refinement unless we culture the intution, the sense,etc. to 'see' Him in creation with every flower, cloud, planet, person we see. This is the grooming, trancending does this, cultures the villiage of the senses to hold this silence, longer and longer, till one lives it all the time. This is my resolve to establish this silence while my eyes remain open!

pranams,

atanu
12 March 2007, 01:08 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~


------[ It is said, that the SELF picks you first, then you proceed to it as if YOU made the choice ! ]



Namaste,

My Guru says Bhakti is mother of Jnana. Here again a clarity of perspective is required. Jnana is none but the Lord. When everything else is not, only the Jnana exists -- and this is the Lord. So, 'Bhakti is mother of Jnana' means that without Bhakti Lord cannot be attained.

For those who take Lord as something apart from pure knowledge (as with a body etc.), the above concept will not hold.

For the rest, I agree to all what you say. Just wish to add two points.

First, WRT to the verse: 'Self picks you', one must remember the second part of the verse also, which says: '--- since one has selected the Self'.

Second: Shri Krishna, out of four kinds of devotees, favours the wise, who not because of any pressure but based on their discrimination have chosen the Self.

I would finally say that Bhakti, Jnana, Karma etc., are mental ideas created to make certain concepts clear. All aspects need harmonization for anything good to happen.

Om

yajvan
12 March 2007, 05:39 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

For the rest, I agree to all what you say. Just wish to add two points.

First, WRT to the verse: 'Self picks you', one must remember the second part of the verse also, which says: '--- since one has selected the Self'.

Second: Shri Krishna, out of four kinds of devotees, favours the wise, who not because of any pressure but based on their discrimination have chosen the Self. Om

Namaste Atanu,
you bring wise words to HDF. Here's my audit trail on the SELF for your consideration...
Kathopanishad - Chapt 2.23 and Mundakopanishad Chapt 3.2.3

This atman cannot be attained by much study of the Vedas, nor by intelligence, nor by much hearing. He whom the Self chooses, by him the Self can be gained. To him this Atman reveals its true nature.

Sri Aurobindo says it this way: He chooses the Self who is chosen by the Self.
Adi Shankara says it like this: To whom who makes an exclusive choice of the Self, the Self reveals its own body (its own truth).

As I understand and comprehend , the act of revealing belongs solely to the choice/volition of the Self.

Please advise where my understanding is blemished so I may better appreciate the dictims presented by the wise.

...by the grace of thy Self, I see (that most auspicious form)
Adi Shankara commenting on verse 16 of the Isha Upanishad.


pranams,

atanu
16 March 2007, 01:40 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~


Namaste Atanu,
you bring wise words to HDF. Here's my audit trail on the SELF for your consideration...
Kathopanishad - Chapt 2.23 and Mundakopanishad Chapt 3.2.3

This atman cannot be attained by much study of the Vedas, nor by intelligence, nor by much hearing. He whom the Self chooses, by him the Self can be gained. To him this Atman reveals its true nature.

Sri Aurobindo says it this way: He chooses the Self who is chosen by the Self.
Adi Shankara says it like this: To whom who makes an exclusive choice of the Self, the Self reveals its own body (its own truth).

As I understand and comprehend , the act of revealing belongs solely to the choice/volition of the Self.

Please advise where my understanding is blemished so I may better appreciate the dictims presented by the wise.

...by the grace of thy Self, I see (that most auspicious form)
Adi Shankara commenting on verse 16 of the Isha Upanishad.


pranams,

Pranam,

You bring much value to HDF. I learn from you.

Since Self is ONE and ALL, both Aurobindo and Shankara speak correctly, as far as I can comprehend.

The mind has to make an exclusive choice to abide by Self (Shankara) at the same time the ego should not arise that this small self has the power to chose SELF.

Ultimately it is grace but ultimately it is also the mind's resolve, since grace is ever resplendent and ever present.

I personally go by Shankara, since my logic tells me that by aiming to know the self as part one can never know the ONE WHOLE SELF, as is dictated by the shruti. And I find that Shri Aurobindo proceeds from the perspective of many (which can at best be the product), whereas Shankara's premise is top-down from the ONE INDIVISIBLE ATMA.

And Gita says:

Avibhaktam cha bhooteshu vibhaktamiva cha sthitam;
Bhootabhartru cha tajjneyam grasishnu prabhavishnu cha.

13.17. And undivided, yet He exists as if divided in beings; He is to be known as the supporter of beings; He devours and He generates also.

Om Namah Shivayya