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wundermonk
07 March 2013, 01:52 PM
Greetings folks,

How many of you use HDF as an avenue to grind some ax or the other you have against other Hindu POVs?

How many of you who grind such axes identify yourselves as Hindus?

What is the key purpose, you think, of HDF?

Thanks for your time!

Viraja
07 March 2013, 02:03 PM
I think HDF is a great place to appreciate Hinduism. I find these days that some type of 'groupism' (sorry I coined this phrase to indicate separatist mentality) is formed, people start taking to a personal dislike or like of some others... this is too juevinile. We should all come to praise all Hindu gods, sometimes sing bhajans, sometimes listen to katha, reflections on god (from a neutral perspective) as offered by vedas/ithihasas, reflect on Hinduism's current state, glorify worthy Indians all around the globe, etc..

Eastern Mind
07 March 2013, 03:53 PM
Vannakkam: If I come here to sharpen something, it's Murugan's piercing vel within me, the veil of ignorance.

But yeah, some days it seems there are axes to grind. Its all a dance. If what you suggest is truly the case, the axe-grinders are unlikely to be able to see it within themselves though, so asking them directly is probably a futile exercise.

Aum Namasivaya

philosoraptor
07 March 2013, 04:17 PM
Axes are so barbarian. I prefer to decapitate my opponents with light sabers. A more civilized weapon, for a more civilized time.

Ganeshprasad
07 March 2013, 04:44 PM
Pranam

Tongue is sharper then any axe we may wish to wield.



Jai Parshuram
Jai Shree Krishna

Sahasranama
07 March 2013, 05:06 PM
Axes are so barbarian. I prefer to decapitate my opponents with light sabers. A more civilized weapon, for a more civilized time.You are such a neo-warrior.

philosoraptor
07 March 2013, 06:11 PM
You are such a neo-warrior.

Ahem. That's "Master Jedi Neo-Warrior" to you.

Necromancer
11 March 2013, 02:00 AM
Namaste.

I realise my opinion doesn't matter (and other opinions shouldn't either), but I have seen many locked threads lately, all quabbling over 'what it means to be Hindu' and such.

I am not Hindu, even though I love and worship Lord Shiva. I don't pigeonhole myself anywhere and I don't consider myself as 'belonging' to any religion.

If one is faithful and steadfast in their own devotional practice, they are tolerant of the beliefs and opinions of others.

All those who visit these forums with 'axes to grind' or who are interested in Jalpa and are generally disagreeable, are all spiritual fakes...yes, fakes!

Those happy to remain in their own ignorance should be ignored themselves as it's impossible to debate with them or change their views (even IF one is insecure enough to wish to even attempt that).

Everything else should be reported to a moderator.

Aum Namah Shivaya

Believer
12 March 2013, 10:50 AM
Namaste,

To me the purpose of HDF is to discuss various aspects of Hinduism and to promote awareness of our great religion/culture/traditions among fellow Hindus. When self confessed non-Hindus in the forum start giving out advice based on their personal preferences, personal dietary habits etc., it becomes mildly annoying. This is not a secular public forum; but a Hindu private forum, where moderators control the intent and content of the posts. I sure hope bringing this forth is not construed as 'grinding' any personal axes. I eat eggs, or I eat meat, or I am lecto, or I shake my Kundalini sideways everyday, or I walk backwards 5 miles a day; and therefore you should do it too is all nonsense. If it has nothing to with Hinduism or Hindu way of life, it falls in the category of 'what I do/like'. To call Hindus 'intolerant of other beliefs' and 'fakes' in a Hindu forum should be cause for banishment. There is only so much garbage one should be allowed to dump in this forum without consequences. People with health/emotional/financial/jumping Kundalini issues should consult an appropriate expert, instead of bringing their baggage here.

Pranam.

Eastern Mind
12 March 2013, 11:23 AM
Vannakkam Believer: I understand what you are saying, yet at the same time feel it is our duty to gently answer the legitimate questions of those who come here to learn. Of course recent converts are often the most enthusiastic in sharing their experiences, just as you and I share our travel experiences. So for me, its a 'wait and see' approach. I welcome all and every newcomer until they prove ulterior motives, such as shaking up traditions, or attempts to convert.

Coming from the west, knowing that subconscious as I once had it, some of the questions will seem incredibly naive. Like my cousin I mentioned from before: "You're not going swimming in THAT river, are you?" :) You have to start somewhere with these folk, and HDF can serve that purpose too, don't you think? We are, after all, members of humanity too. If we can give a fundamentalist Abrahamic just a thought that Hinduism is a legitimate religion, then we should. Small steps lead to big steps. But I guess that's why we have the 'new to Hinduism' section.

Certainly there are some members I can't dialogue with because they are right and I am wrong. But fortunately I have the willpower to hold back. (usually)

Aum Namasivaya

satay
12 March 2013, 11:53 AM
namaste,
As the mod I have to observe a lot of what goes on here. Sometimes I give people enough rope so that they can hang themselves in front of everyone. Hang their head in shame that is, not literally. However, some people just don't get the point and then I am left with no choice but to ban them.

I agree with EM but the kundalini questions or comments like, "I read the Gita and I read the upanishads and now I want to read the Vedas" just simply turn me off and I say to myself, "reallly? get real." :rolleyes:

Eastern Mind
12 March 2013, 12:10 PM
I agree with EM but the kundalini questions or comments like, "I read the Gita and I read the upanishads and now I want to read the Vedas" just simply turn me off and I say to myself, "reallly? get real." :rolleyes:

Vannakkam: Yeah, I have my limits too. Annoying describes it well.

Aum Namasivaya

Eastern Mind
12 March 2013, 12:14 PM
I am not Hindu, even though I love and worship Lord Shiva.
Aum Namah Shivaya

Vannakkam: Sounds pretty Hindu to me. :) I don't know of any other religions or faiths that worship Lord Siva. But you are not alone in this stance. In the end, it doesn't matter what we call ourselves, but rather how we behave that counts.

Aum Namasivaya

Believer
12 March 2013, 01:17 PM
Namaste,

I don't know of any other religions or faiths that worship Lord Siva. But you are not alone in this stance. In the end, it doesn't matter what we call ourselves, but rather how we behave that counts.
I agree with most of what Satay and you have said. I don't mind that people don't want or care to label themselves as Hindus, even when they adopt certain aspects of it like worshiping a Hindu deity or liking the culture/food etc. But coming out repeatedly with statements like, 'I am not Hindu' is like 'in your face'. If you are not Hindu and want to partake in the conversations, it should be on 'don't ask don't tell basis'. What purpose does it serve to dish out non-Hindu advice to others, which ultimately leads to acrimonious debates and insults being hurled around. I am all for accommodating each and every visitor to the forum for as long as possible. But, it is the belligerent behavior which ticks me off. Phew, I feel so much lighter with this load off my chest. :)

Pranam.

Jodhaa
12 March 2013, 02:55 PM
Namaste all,

I think people reveal their true selves on the forum, given enough time. I think that new comers who are maybe naive, but enthusiastic/ passionate should be offered a little more patience. No one can expect a newcomer to a vast faith like Hinduism to posses even one drop of the knowledge they need to understand it fully. If they are offering advice here and there, or spouting information that is incorrect or misguided, I think it's only fair to gently talk them down, correct them and see how they handle that.

A lot of people don't like being corrected but if they are sincere in their search for truth they will take it gracefully and even thank those that have offered advice. If not, it will be easy to tell because they will get defensive and argumentative.

I do think there are times when new-comers to the forum are "jumped on" by other members and I think that's an instant turn off. What is the point of searching for answers when the mere act of asking causes a firestorm of disdain?

It's wonderful to have so many wise and well educated senior forum members to advise, inform and correct, but I think it's important not to forget that we are at all stages/levels of spiritual growth. One has to start somewhere.:)

Now, anyone who asks an intentionally antagonistic question, or promotes ideas that are completely unrelated to the forum's purpose I think are best dealt with by ignoring them. If no one responds, we avoid an unnecessarily string of arguments that only serves to bring the morale of the whole forum down.

I also have to agree that for the most part, traumatic personal/life events should be left to the professionals and not brought to a forum. It's not that no one cares or has no compassion, but we're not professionals, and even if we were, do you really want advice from faceless strangers on the internet for such important events?

Now if you have a personal trouble directly related to your faith, I have no problem with that. But to be honest, when posts are made about deeply personal problems (financial, relationships, medical problems) it ends up looking like a cry for attention. There are many other much more productive ways of getting help/advice.

I'm glad this has become a topic of discussion. I think it's important to air grievances in an organized way.

Shanti

Necromancer
12 March 2013, 03:19 PM
Namaste,

To me the purpose of HDF is to discuss various aspects of Hinduism and to promote awareness of our great religion/culture/traditions among fellow Hindus. When self confessed non-Hindus in the forum start giving out advice based on their personal preferences, personal dietary habits etc., it becomes mildly annoying. This is not a secular public forum; but a Hindu private forum, where moderators control the intent and content of the posts. I sure hope bringing this forth is not construed as 'grinding' any personal axes. I eat eggs, or I eat meat, or I am lecto, or I shake my Kundalini sideways everyday, or I walk backwards 5 miles a day; and therefore you should do it too is all nonsense. If it has nothing to with Hinduism or Hindu way of life, it falls in the category of 'what I do/like'. To call Hindus 'intolerant of other beliefs' and 'fakes' in a Hindu forum should be cause for banishment. There is only so much garbage one should be allowed to dump in this forum without consequences. People with health/emotional/financial/jumping Kundalini issues should consult an appropriate expert, instead of bringing their baggage here.

Pranam.

Namaste.

You like to take me to task over everything I post, don't you?

I suggest you place me on your ignore list if what I say bothers you so much, as I am not going to change.

I have done as much for your posts as of now. If you feel that I should be banned, maybe that's a matter to be taken up with the Administrators on here and not continually whine openly about it, no?

Aum Namah Shivaya

satay
12 March 2013, 03:39 PM
namaste Necro,
I don't see believer mention your name in his post. Why are you lashing out at him? Care to shed some light on that?


Namaste.

You like to take me to task over everything I post, don't you?

yajvan
12 March 2013, 07:44 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

in the end it really doesn't matter... only be concerned what occurs between your two ears.



iti śivaṁ

Necromancer
13 March 2013, 12:45 AM
namaste Necro,
I don't see believer mention your name in his post. Why are you lashing out at him? Care to shed some light on that?
Namaste.

Of course I can, however the obvious inference should be illuminating enough.

If you can find any other member who has posted recently who said they are:
self confessed non-Hindus or who have said:
I eat eggs, or I eat meat or who even stated:
To call Hindus 'intolerant of other beliefs' and 'fakes' in a Hindu forum should be cause for banishment (which I never said that Hindus were, only argumentative and disagreeable people were) and other references to other posts I have made without even having the need to mention my name...

Then, I shall apologise to whomever concerned and never raise the issue again.

However, seeing as how I am replying to this myself, when I should be doing other things...like my Sadhana....I shall go and do that and leave the arguers and 'hair splitters' to do that.

I am not that naive, Satay. Really!


in the end it really doesn't matter... only be concerned what occurs between your two ears. Agreed.

Aum Namah Shivaya

charitra
13 March 2013, 08:47 AM
EM’a approach was very much mature towards Necro’s ” I love Shiva but Iam not Hindu '’ statement, with his rebuttal,’ who else can worship Shiva other than a hindu’. All because, as we all can see, the poster wasn’t
anti- hindu after all.

New posters should be given some leeway, at least in the beginning. Paranoia arising from bad past experience (with some new comers) is though justified, everyone should be treated ‘not guilty’ until proven otherwise. So let the newbies settle down here first, or else the onlookers would judge the forum and by extension Hinduism as intolerant towards constructive criticism. Namaste.

Believer
13 March 2013, 11:32 AM
Namaste,

Our discussions on this thread bring to mind an ancient folk tale,

Once two women, quarreling over a baby, showed up in the king's court to seek justice. The king, very patiently heard the pleas of each lady as to why she was the real mother of the child and should be given custody of the baby. Unable to resolve the issue, the king indicated that one solution might be to cut the baby into two and give each half to the two litigants. The second woman was pretty casual about it whereas the first woman was aghast at this suggestion and agreed to let the second woman have the baby. The king immediately pronounced his verdict by awarding the baby to the first woman.

The real mother was willing to give up her baby rather than see it harmed in any way. Why do I bring up this old tale? The degree of ownership brings out reactions/emotions of varying degrees.

When I lose a close family member/friend, I am devastated, whereas my neighbor is merely sad.

When my house burns down, I am in depression, whereas the neighbor merely sympathizes with my loss.

When something derogatory is said about any aspect of Hinduism, one member might be livid and another may not even notice it.

Our degree of ownership defines the intensity/depth of our reaction to a loss.

Some of us in the forum are non-Hindus, who have a minimal attachment to it, and don't feel a thing by any negativity towards it.
Some of us are casual Hindus, who are very tolerant and not very perturbed when there is negativity about Hinduism brought to the forum.
Some are fully committed and genuinely have a sense as being its owners and go ballistic when something derogatory is said about its deities. They would go to any lengths, including being banned with their responses to defend their faith. Understanding this simple concept helps us to understand the spectrum of reactions to some of the posts by different members.

With this as the background, I understand the need to stand down and be more tolerant of the excesses of the new members. But, on the flip side, members must also understand the reaction of those who think of themselves as the owners. It is a two way street. And both sides have to give a little to coexist and keep things civil. Preaching by either side to convert the other side to their line of thinking would be fruitless. But one must remember that as long as you don't think of it as your baby, you don't really care if it lives or dies. So, a reaction to your negative comments from the ones who do think of it as their baby should not be something totally unexpected.

Pranam.

Anirudh
13 March 2013, 03:44 PM
Namaste HDF,

What needs to be defended should be defended at any cost. For eg, if a girl's honor is in danger, or someone's life is at stake genuinely associated people will do every thing possible.

In my short stint at HDF have observed members writing whatever that comes in their mind and yet expect/preach others to be tolerant.

I have great respect for Veda (although I have just started learning Sanskrit), Raamaayan, Mahaabhaarath and last but not the least my sacred nation Bhaarath.

I participate in this forum because this is mostly well moderated and balanced. But in the name of analysis or information gathering if some member tag Shree Raam as monster or put forward views that support balkanization of my nation or write things like talking monkeys or questioning the integrity and antiquity of Vedic religion with western theories to support their claim etc etc, I really don't know what is expected out me to stay here as a member of HDF.

According to my tiny brain, Our Dharma revolves around a central theme "Satyameva Jayate". If that's the case isn't our duty to weed out when someone come here with a preconceived notions or premeditated thoughts.

Apologize if i have not been able articulate my views w.o hurting others or hurling abuses!

philosoraptor
13 March 2013, 09:44 PM
Pranams,

To Believer's very good points above, I would just like to add the following.

My earnest wish on this forum is not to convert anyone or even anyone to my views, but rather to raise the general standard of discussion and/or debate to some reasonably intelligent level. Too often we get questions from members innocently wondering about some point of morality or philosophy, only to get answers of the form:

"Well, I believe that..."

"In my opinion...."

"I think that...."

... and so on.

We should understand that when someone asks a question, it is implicit that he or she is looking for an answer based on some authoritative standard of evidence. Personal opinions are not useful to anyone, and in fact they are quite distracting to those looking for informed discourse. As a public forum, when people chime in with personal opinions, it makes Hinduism look like a free-for-all in which personal opinions hold more sway than objective standards of evidence. Now, the truth is that there is no one, homogeneous Hinduism, and so standards of evidence may vary from one tradition to another. But even still, there is no reason why one cannot cite the standards by which he or she answers. If "personal opinion" is the sole basis for providing an answer, it is probably best not to offer it.

regards,

Believer
13 March 2013, 10:56 PM
Namaste,

If "personal opinion" is the sole basis for providing an answer, it is probably best not to offer it.
But, that also is a personal opinion, no? ;)

Just kidding P/Raptor. Thanks for the addition to my post.

Pranam.

ShivaFan
14 March 2013, 12:54 AM
Wundermonk: How many of you use HDF as an avenue to grind some ax or the other you have against other Hindu POVs?

How many of you who grind such axes identify yourselves as Hindus?

What is the key purpose, you think, of HDF?

Namaste

I think such "grinding of axes" has different reasons, but now exploring the world of Hindu forums, I might have an answer to one reason.

The internet forum has introduced many wonderful opportunities for learning, growing and sharing, and in particular associating with those who have something they consider truth. Hinduism on the internet is, in one way, a revolution. Unfortunately, forums on the internet can also be the faceless wastelands of those who believe they have nothing to learn, and who are simply what is today called internet bullies. In fact being nameless and faceless attracts those with such issues.

There is no easy answer. But I have a question - Does the internet exist only in the Kali Yuga? As we cycle from one to the next, doesn’t that mean it will return again, and again, but why only in this age? :)

Ignorance is one thing, but this is quite another issue, and this type of maya speaks of those who carry axes but not for the purpose of chopping wood. They are not a moderator, but they believe they are the authority of the truth, and though they are a nameless, faceless internet bot of which no person should take as an authority or do so at their own risk, the same “control cracker” goes into an endless barrage against anyone they think questions their nameless and faceless citations as if they are the police of last opinion, even if the target of such barrages are more often delusionary, coming from what they often call “enemies” (a term they will use on occasion which exposes certain character flaws). Oddly, they are the very ones who carry axes to such a peculiar and extreme state they read into things which are not there and imagine (1) either some imagined “enemy” is fixated on them, or (2) no one is paying attention to them, either of which sets them off into yet another barrage of vendetta.

Basically, it is something that all of society is now learning – which is, that one should not take the internet too seriously. The very nature of communications on the internet will be subject to all sorts of punch and counter punch, because it is not, for example, an audience of devotees sitting in a temple and listening to a guru or master. There may be rules, but pretty much there are no walls around it like a temple or a door you go through, the environment is more like an open vegetable market.

The internet forum isn't a temple, and it isn't personal. It is not personal, it is hard to control, and never something to get much upset about. Perhaps a Blog is a better format than a Forum in this regard, more comfortable for some, and certainly for the owner of the blog. On a Forum, there will be those who come wandering in, who are ignorant, or want sympathy, or are saints (well – probably not), or are bullies, or are simply there for the ride – who knows? It can be controlled only to a certain level. But as for those who go on with axes to grind, typically it is the one who wants to be the authority of last resort who do not understand that the audience is just as nameless and faceless a bot as they are, that others are not their disciples and likely will not ever be so because there is no name, no face, nothing much there. It’s like when you see the local news reporting about the arrest of a child molester in some neighborhood, and then the reporter puts a microphone in the face of those in the neighborhood who start to say to the reporter, “well, I really never knew him personally, not even his name, but he was here and there and he always seemed to be such a nice guy, polite with the elderly” …

There is room for humor. Go ask Mulla HawaaBaaz.

“Can’t we all just get along?” – Rodney King, 1992, LA riots

Om Namah Sivaya

philosoraptor
14 March 2013, 05:05 PM
Namaste,

But, that also is a personal opinion, no? ;)

Just kidding P/Raptor. Thanks for the addition to my post.

Pranam.

Yes, I should have said, "In my opinion, we should stop offering advice based on personal opinions."

:D