Importance of Dasavataar

[Anirudh]

The ten incarnation (Dasavataar) of Sreeman Naaraayan has more significance and acceptance amongst the common public. Can any tell the me reason behind this.

[Viraja]

Just a few ideas from my point of view:

1. Dasavatara gives dignity even to animals with god being of a blend of human and animal forms.

2. Dasavatara gives importance to the fact that humans are possessed of animal nature in them. Thus god took avatara with a blend of human and animal so that when humans pray to him, their respective animal instincts can be gotten rid of.

I'm sure there are many more, just that I cannot hold within such a limited capacity for knowledge that I do possess.

All glory to the Dasavataras!

[philosoraptor]

The ten incarnation (Dasavataar) of Sreeman Naaraayan has more significance and acceptance amongst the common public. Can any tell the me reason behind this.

If you are asking why some poets selected these 10, when the Lord has many more avatAras, then I'm not sure I can say. gauDIya vaiShNava-s say that these 10 are special "lIlAvatAra-s," bu they follow jayadeva's list which includes buddha. The list followed by shrI vaiShNava-s is, I believe, from vedAnta deshika, and this one has balarAma instead of buddha. I can only assume that the the LILA of these forms of the Lord was particularly captivating to these bhaktas.

[Anirudh]

Dhanyawaada Viraja ji and Philosoraptor ji,

Acceptance of Buddha as one of the Dasavataar is widely seen amongst Bihar public. I guess its because Buddhism got patronage from the rulers of the ancient Bihar kingdom.

In southern states, Bala Raama replaces Buddha. I don't know the tradition followed by TTD (Thirumala Thirupathi Devastaanam) but they seem to consider Balarama instead of Buddha.

Another popular belief that I learnt from the Satsungh (especially from the south) is that these chosen Avtaars depict Human evolution.

[philosoraptor]

Another popular belief that I learnt from the Satsungh (especially from the south) is that these chosen Avtaars depict Human evolution.

I can tell you for a fact that this is incorrect. First of all, purANic paradigms of time are cyclical. The dashAvatAras are not strictly arranged in chronologic order. For example (according to my notes based on the bhAgavata purANa), varAha-avatAra actually appears twice, the first time being in svAyambhuva-manvantara which follows the previous appearance of matsya-avatAra at the end of the previous kalpa. Then, much later in chakshusha manvatara we get another appearance of varAha, then kUrma-avatAra, and then vAmana-avatAra appears in vaivasvata-manvantara. But above and beyond this, it makes no sense to suggest that it represents human evolution, because nArAyaNa isn't human, and even when He appears as an animal, He is fully transcendental to tamas and the other guNas.

[Anirudh]

Dhanyawaada Philosoraptor,

Your clarification shows how Sanaatana Dharma has been distorted.

Don't you think it will be a monumental task for any group to understand it in totality and to weed out the distortion even if they spend their entire life time.

Yes, I am moving away from my original question. Leave alone the entire umbrella of Sanaatana Dharma, I don't know even 1% of Vaishnava sect. That makes me wonder whether am I really a Hindu and following unadulterated Hinduism?

Another question. what should be the age of Vedic religion considering the different branches of Science it covers. I don't think these findings wouldn't have happened in few thousand years.

For eg: We had pushpaka vimaana, had found ways to build bridges across ocean. We had developed weapons like Bhramaasthra. The list seems to be endless.

And the last question:
Raamaayana and Mahaabhaaratha seem to have recorded incidents which explains our intellectual and scientific excellence. Isn't a conscious and calculated effort to undermine our excellence by naming them as mere epics?

I ll post more as and when I get more questions while reading Mahaabhaaratha and Raamaayana.

[Adhvagat]

And Dashavatar teaches Darwin's theory of evolution.

[Omkara]

And Dashavatar teaches Darwin's theory of evolution.

Here we go again.:)

[Omkara]

Perhaps we could collect references to avatars in the vedas here?
Eg.-




** VAsudev KRshNa (Taittariya AraNyak 19.1.6) and Devakinandana (ChhAndogya Up. 3.17.6)
** Matsya avatar - preaching Manu - Shatapati brAmhaN 2.2.1.1
** KUrma avatAr, varAha swAmi lifted the earth out of rasatAL - Taittireya BramhaN
** Narsimha avatAr - Tattireya AraNyak. Hints & signs in Rg Ved 8.14.13
** VAman avatAr : "Idam VishNurvichakrame tredhA nidhade padam" - Rg Ved 1.22.17
** ParshurAm - atharva ved



Also, Hayagriva- Satapatha Brahmana 14.1.1

[Sahasranama]

And Dashavatar teaches Darwin's theory of evolution.I discussed this before, the existence of a creature that is made up out of two other species so far removed from each other genetically, like a man and a lion, horse or boar would actually falsify the theory of evolution and definitely not support it. Narayana is not human and the avatars come back cyclically in different kalpas, like philosoraptor said as well. This idea of the Dashavatara representing the theory of evolution comes from the neo-Vaishnava thinker, Bhaktivinod Thakur. It is a far fetched theory, since most of the dashavataras are in human form.

[philosoraptor]

Dhanyawaada Philosoraptor,

Your clarification shows how Sanaatana Dharma has been distorted.

Don't you think it will be a monumental task for any group to understand it in totality and to weed out the distortion even if they spend their entire life time.

Yes, I am moving away from my original question. Leave alone the entire umbrella of Sanaatana Dharma, I don't know even 1% of Vaishnava sect. That makes me wonder whether am I really a Hindu and following unadulterated Hinduism?

Another question. what should be the age of Vedic religion considering the different branches of Science it covers. I don't think these findings wouldn't have happened in few thousand years.

For eg: We had pushpaka vimaana, had found ways to build bridges across ocean. We had developed weapons like Bhramaasthra. The list seems to be endless.

And the last question:
Raamaayana and Mahaabhaaratha seem to have recorded incidents which explains our intellectual and scientific excellence. Isn't a conscious and calculated effort to undermine our excellence by naming them as mere epics?

I ll post more as and when I get more questions while reading Mahaabhaaratha and Raamaayana.


Pranams,

This is Kali-Yuga. Distortions are going to be the norm, and it is unlikely that any of us are going to be able to do anything about it. Nevertheless, we can keep a higher standard for ourselves and remain cognizant of the actual evidence, and that is all I try to do. That is all any of us can do, above and beyond trying to politely correct others who spread these kinds of distortions. Many of them are not malicious either. They have just inherited wrong ideas and never bothered to question them.

I don't have a problem with calling rAmAyaNa and mahAbhArata as "epics," unless "epic" somehow implies "mythology," the latter term I do have a problem with. The shruti describes the itihAsa as the "fifth veda" which underscores its importance.

Who you are is a jIvAtma in a body, suffering or enjoying the results of his previous karmas. So am I. I don't get worked up over the idea of whether I am a Hindu, not a Hindu, what kind of Hindu, etc. I look at it from the standpoint that materialistic life is futile, and there must be more to life than simply living and dying and being reborn all over again. If I discuss philosophy, and suggest based on a reasoning process that some systems of thinking are not worthy of my attention, it is always with this goal in mind.

[Anirudh]

Namaste Sahasranama, Omkara, Pietro and Philosoraptor,

Apologies for the delay in reply. Thank you very much sharing Your views.

[sapansaxena]

I too believe that Dashavatar in a way proved Darwin's theory of evaluation. Maybe this picture will explain it better than whatever I may be able to write or talk about it
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-mUPIlZOgHRk/UNXitQBqtBI/AAAAAAAAAw8/AdEl0NFNjqo/s1600/390298_304352723004672_420127606_n.jpg

[Omkara]

I too believe that Dashavatar in a way proved Darwin's theory of evaluation.

I don't know how many times I will have to say this- The Dashavatars are NOT in chronlogical order!!!

[kallol]

The common sense says that the order of the Dashavatara is depiction of the evolution of life on earth.

For a scientist, it perfectly fits the notion that whole of the sanatana dharma is nothing but science of life and creation.

The language chosen is to suit the people of that time. The essence is highly regarded as the knowledge we are yet to discover.

People of different levels of spiritual maturity, learning, background have defined the same in different ways. This has helped the general people to fit themselves into one or other saints.

From macro pov it remains the same - science of life and creation and our role in that.

[sapansaxena]

I don't know how many times I will have to say this- The Dashavatars are NOT in chronlogical order!!!

Namaste Omkara!
I agree, they are not in chronological order.
But then, order is the only thing which deviates from the similarities to Darwin's theory.

It would be a highly improbable co-incidence if the mapping between evolution and dashavatar just came up out of nowhere. I think its more than what meets the eye, and Dashavatar, which already has a lot of symbolism and scientific imagery, may have some relevance in relation to Darwin's theories as well.

[philosoraptor]

The common sense says that the order of the Dashavatara is depiction of the evolution of life on earth.


Then how do you explain the fact that varAha avatAra precedes matsya avatAra in the purANic listings? See bhAgavata purANa 1st skandha, 3rd adhyAya for details. In fact, the first several avatAras are listed as 1) four kumAras, 2) varAha, 3) nArada, 4) nara-nArAyaNa Rishi, 5) kapila, 6) dattatreya 7) Yajna (who became Indra in His manvantara), 8) Rishabha mahArAja, 9) pRithu mahArAja, and then 10) matsya.

This is not a picture of evolution from simpler to more complex organisms.

[McKitty]

Vanakkam,

Doesn't your picture lack of some lizards ? Theory of evolution is not that simpler, and I never heard of a reptilian Avatara of Sri Visnu...

I don't believe it's made to reflect any theory of evolution honestly. Putting "convenient" things together and not mentionning the rest does not make it real.


Aum Namah Shivaya

[kallol]

Then how do you explain the fact that varAha avatAra precedes matsya avatAra in the purANic listings? See bhAgavata purANa 1st skandha, 3rd adhyAya for details. In fact, the first several avatAras are listed as 1) four kumAras, 2) varAha, 3) nArada, 4) nara-nArAyaNa Rishi, 5) kapila, 6) dattatreya 7) Yajna (who became Indra in His manvantara), 8) Rishabha mahArAja, 9) pRithu mahArAja, and then 10) matsya.

This is not a picture of evolution from simpler to more complex organisms.


The sequence I have known from my childhood is fish, tortoise, boar, narasimha, bamana, parashurama, rama, krishna.

I checked again in wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dashavatara

It says the same.

There may be difference in different scriptures as the authors and their motives might be different.

However the generally believed sequence is the one which I mentioned.

That is all I can say on this subject.

[philosoraptor]

The sequence I have known from my childhood is fish, tortoise, boar, narasimha, bamana, parashurama, rama, krishna.

I checked again in wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dashavatara

It says the same.

There may be difference in different scriptures as the authors and their motives might be different.

However the generally believed sequence is the one which I mentioned.

That is all I can say on this subject.

Pranams.

That sequence is incorrect as per the shAstras.

Again, the chronological order as given in the bhAgavata purANa, which is one of the major texts discussing avatAra theology, is (1) kumAra-s, (2) varAha, (3) nArada, (4) nara-nArAyaNa Rishi, (5) kapila, (6) dattatreya, (7) yajna, (8) Rishabha, (9) pRithu, (10) matsya, (11) kUrma, (12) dhanvantari, (13) mohinI, (14) narasiMha, (15) vAmaNa, (16) parashurAma, (17) rAma, (18) balarAma, (19) kRiShNa, (20) buddha, (21) kalki

An identical list is found in the viShNu purANa, if memory serves, another major text describing avatAra theology.

As you can see, there is no orderly progression from more animal-like forms to more human-like forms. Even if you skip all the avatAras traditionally regarded as shaktyAveshas (empowered jIvas), you still get varAha --> nara-nArAyaNa Rishi --> kapila --> dattatreya --> yajna --> Rishabha --> matysa --> kUrma --> dhanvantari --> mohinI --> narasiMha --> vAmana --> rAma --> kRiShNa. Once again, no orderly progression from more animal-like to more human-like.

According to gauDIya vaiShNavas, varAha appeared twice, the second time being after kUrma-avatAra. However, even if you accept this and ignore the avatAras previous to matsya, then you get matsya --> kUrma --> dhanvantari --> mohinI --> varAha --- still not consistent with evolution!



regards,

[Sri Vaishnava]

The Dasavatara sequence is not orderly to warrant a reading of 'evolution'. Furthermore, the 'dasavatara' is just a list of the mukhya avataras by knowledgeable rishis for the purpose of upAsaNa. The avataras of sriman nArAyaNa are infinite. For that matter, the vyUhas are avataras, the 'para rUpam' is an avatarA, the antaryAmin is an avatAra and the forms in temples, archa are avatArAs. The 'Dasavatara' is part of the vibhava group of avatArA.

However, each of the dasavataras do have a signifiance wrt to their forms. For instance, Bhagavan appeared as a fish in matsya. The tAtparyam is this - the flood is samsArA and the fish represents bhagavAn, who alone has the fins, ie, the strength, to carry the jivA across samsArA. The fact that Manu and the rishis did nothing but allow themselves to be towed represents the secondary importance of self-effort in upAsaNa.

Similarly, the kUrma signifies the indriyAs, which when withdrawn just as the body of the turtle is withdrawn into the shell, can withstand the tApa-traya signified by the churning of the ocean with the mountain. The 4 legs and face of the turtle being withdrawn represent the 5 indriyAs, with the prAnA or manas (not sure which; gotta check srI parasara bhattar's commentaries) corresponding to the face of the turtle.

Krishna avatarA - The flute symbolises the acharya. The idea is that when Bhagavan says something, people cannot understand it, or the message does not appear sweet to them. But the acharya is like the flute that takes the words from the lips of bhagavan and converts it to something as sweet as the music coming out from the flute. The various holes in the flute are controlled by Krishna to produce specific sounds, which signifies that the acharyan only communicates whatever Bhagavan has truly instructed and does not convey anything of his own imagination.

And so on and so forth. There are such meanings for every avatAra. Both the literal and the symbolic are accepted as equally true, ie, Bhagavan took these forms for real, and at the same time did it purposely to impart a hidden meaning.

[shiv.somashekhar]

A strong factor against the Dashavatara => evolution theory is the absence of such a claim by Puranas. None of them recognize the concept of Darwin's evolution, much less associate it with the order of avatars.

I would not be surprised if there are internet articles claiming Darwin was inspired by the Bhagavatam or Vishnu Purana, which led to his work on evolution.

[Adhvagat]

A strong factor against the Dashavatara => evolution theory is the absence of such a claim by Puranas. None of them recognize the concept of Darwin's evolution, much less associate it with the order of avatars.

I would not be surprised if there are internet articles claiming Darwin was inspired by the Bhagavatam or Vishnu Purana, which led to his work on evolution.

You're missing the point, it's not about Darwin being inspired by it. It's about archetypal truths being manifested in the form of religious narrative.