subtleties in the gītā

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast�
　

I thought it may be of some interest to look at the more subtle� offers that are found within our bhāgavad gītā. Please add yours as you see fit.

Because March 20th contains the vernal equinox I thought I would start there ; we know this as the first day of spring. This equinox is known as viṣuvat - being in the middle; middle most. So, my first question...
Within the very 1st chapter, arjun asks kṛṣṇa-jī to place his charrot in between ( madhya� is used in the śloka ) the two armies. It is here that their conversation takes place. Why in-between (viṣuvat ) ? Surely they could have gone to another place to have this discussion. Is there some significance beyond the obvious i.e. of being able to view the armies in fully array ?

iti śivaṁ

words





subtle = saṃketa - a hint some may call nālikā , others may call sūcā or pointing out or piercing in.
madhya - middlemost , intermediate , central

[Jodhaa]

Perhaps their physical position between the two armies is representative of Arjuna's choice? To flee or to fight? Or the proverbial "Caught between a rock and hard place?"

By being central Arjuna is forced to consider the decisions that lay before him on all sides. He can not disengage himself from the reality he is in.

The center is also the pivot, upon which the action of a mechanism depends. Arjuna's dilemma is at the center of the story and while those who are meant to die, will die whether he chooses to fight or not, HIS karmic journey will be effected greatly based on his choice.

Also, just as the eye of a tornado is said to be completely calm, here at the center, Arjuna has a small window of calm before the storm before he must act.

Just my initial thoughts. Thank you for starting this thread!:)

[philosoraptor]

Considering that Arjuna was the one who would be deluded about the nature of his dharma and reality, it is hard to believe that there was some purposeful, spiritual motivation to moving his chariot in between the two armies.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�



Just my initial thoughts.
I think you bring good points to the discussion...

One needs to be mindful that the bhāgavad gītā does not have one wasted word. Each idea/condition is crafted to offer insights and brilliance on many levels ( 3 levels� to be specific). So, this notion of being in the middle, madhya - middlemost , intermediate , central , is also a chosen condition that sage vyāsa� offers us.

What then can be one possible offer/meaning of this madhya? It is this: between any two things there is the middle where, it contains neither one thing or the other. It is here where one finds the transcendent (pāramitā�). Some call this the 4th, or turīya. And who is with arjun in madhya ? It is kṛṣṇa-jī, none other then the transcendent here on earth. It is from this position that the bhāgavad gītā is offered to arjun. From the transcendent, from kṛṣṇa-jī, from perfect knowledge. This is the subtle hint that is given to us from vyāsa-ji.

iti śivaṁ

words

3 Levels:

abhidhā or the conventional meaning i.e. the literal meaning
lakṣaṇā or indirectly via sign, symbol, inference.
vya�janā or the figurative expression more intuitively offered some may call implied indication , yet is on a higher level of meaning.

vyāsa is sometimes called vādarāyaṇa or bādarāyaṇa; he is kṛṣṇa dvaipāyana.
pāramitā which = transcendent ; some say viśvottīrṇa or 'of a transcendental nature'

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�

Let me ask the next question. Who is the bhāgavad gītā intended for ? If one says for everyone, I say perhaps so. But let me then ask it another way: Who will benefit the most from this śāstra ?

iti śivaṁ

[shiv.somashekhar]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�

Let me ask the next question. Who is the bhāgavad gītā intended for ? If one says for everyone, I say perhaps so. But let me then ask it another way: Who will benefit the most from this śāstra ?

iti śivaṁ




Is it intended for Arjuna specifically or for everyone? If it is the latter, then the backdrop of the battefield, position of chariot, etc., cannot have any more significance beyond mere illustration.

On the latter, is it for everyone or those who desire Moksha? I do not think anyone disputes that the subject of the Gita is Moksha and therefore, is only relevant to people who seek Moksha. To put it differently, if one is not interested in Moksha, then the Gita is not for him.

Again, on the topic of everyone, the Gita somewhere towards the end cautions against disseminating this scripture to the undeserving (cannot recall the verse number). In other words, it is not for everyone, but is reserved for people with certain qualifications. In reality, I have not seen any evidence to this instruction being followed. On the contrary, with free books and online copies, it is clear that this instruction of Krishna has been flouted.

Thoughts?

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�


Thoughts?
Your reasoning makes sense...

Let me offer the following for one's consideration. Within mankind we have the possibility of a full spectrum of people. Who can we eliminate from the spectrum of people ? Where the bhāgavad gītā would be of little value i.e. as the wise would say, as water trying to be held in a wicker basket.
We have the following range that goes between perfect knowlege and perfect ignorance ( or 100% dulless , full of moha�) :

0% perfect knowledge + 100% ignorance = perfect moha
some knowledge + some ignorance = those that some times know and sometimes not i.e. have doubts and live within the fluxuations of pleaures and pains; between the throws of the 3 guna-s.
100% perfect knowledge + 0% ignorance = realization of Being , realization of Self, some too call established in turyātitaIn this simplifed view� ( so the conversation does not get daunting) the teaching of bhāgavad gītā would have little value to the realized being because he/she has realized the fruit of the bhāgavad gītā ; and the person steeped in moha or perfect ignorance would have little use for the bhāgavad gītā. Why so ? due to the notion that he does not know that he does not know. Perfect ignorance is the notion of not even knowing that one is deluted and ignorant.
It is this middle group that benefits the most. Those that ponder and have doubts.

This is where we find arjun, not as a fallen person, but a person that is struggling with the duties of life, and the conflict of the heart ( love and admiration for his teachers, family, etc.) and mind i.e. the intellectual understanding of what is right action. It is these two things that collide.
It is the field of life, the battle field that is offered here, kurukṣetra�.
Now much more can be said on this... If we look to the last chapter ajun informs the Lord that his doubts (saṃdeha - doubts, uncertainty)
have been removed. Yet there is more to this story that falls outside the strings intent on subtleties.

iti śivaṁ

moha - loss of consciousness , bewilderment , perplexity , distraction , infatuation , delusion
In this simplifed view - what is not brought up is leśāvidya, that is:
leśa + avidya gives leśāvidya
leśa = a small part or portion , particle , atom , little bit or slight trace
avidya = ignorance
kurukṣetra = kuru + kṣetra :

kuru is of a people of India, yet too it is the four mahā-dvīpa-s or principal divisions of the known world +
kṣetra which is 'fertile soil' ,the body considered as the field of the indwelling soul

[brahman]

Dear Yajvan,



Within the very 1st chapter, arjun asks kṛṣṇa-jī to place his charrot in between ( madhya� is used in the śloka ) the two armies. It is here that their conversation takes place. Why in-between (viṣuvat ) ? Surely they could have gone to another place to have this discussion. Is there some significance beyond the obvious i.e. of being able to view the armies in fully array ?

Our Pov

Our inner strength of purpose, dedication, consistent adherence to basic principles, and identity with the Absolute One are put to the acid test when we are called upon to play our role in a life and death contest. By choosing such a diametrical situation, Vyasa, the mastermind seer, unequivocally establishes the practical intention of the subject matter of the Gita in the first chapter itself.

In the philosophical parlance the symbolism of war and battle represent the great struggle in the psyche between the human and animal factors, the lower and the higher selves, individual and the mass-man, and the revolutionary contention of the negative and positive forces to create the new.

In Arjuna we see the same, the enigmatic case of the dynamics of social mechanisms urging him to carry out the duty of a warrior, and, at the same time, a philosophic disposition that was essentially compassionate and altruistic, compelling him to give up war.

In terms of the Indian schools of psychology, Arjuna is said to be caught up in between the paradox of Sanklapa and Vikalpa.

In the present chapter Arjuna makes a number of observations, which all imply questions, to which Krishna, the Guru, employs a methodology by which he can systematically correct Arjuna step by step. Krishna does not ignore any of his questions but answers all in a well defined manner form the 11th verse of the second chapter.


-----------



Let me ask the next question. Who is the bhāgavad gītā intended for ? If one says for everyone, I say perhaps so. But let me then ask it another way: Who will benefit the most from this śāstra ?



IF we are already a knower of the Absolute, like Suka, Janaka etc, and we are always in a state of merger with the Supreme, there is no need for us to learn the Gita.

IF our mind is full of external pursuits and are always tormented by unquenchable passions and have no love for truth, again, we wouldn�t be bothered to study the Gita.

IF, however, we do not come under either of these categories, we must be thirsting for truth. If we love truth and want to seek it, there is nothing like the Gita to guide us.

More precisely, if we are convinced that there is something beyond the world of senses, and if we have a thirst for such a joy that is not limited to the perishable, the Gita can surely help us to find it in our own self.

Love:)

[charitra]

So, my first question... Within the very 1st chapter, arjun asks kṛṣṇa-jī to place his charrot in between ( madhya� is used in the śloka ) the two armies. It is here that their conversation takes place. Why in-between (viṣuvat ) ? Surely they could have gone to another place to have this discussion. Is there some significance beyond the obvious i.e. of being able to view the armies in fully rray ?

Why the time and place (in between the two senas (armies)), within the earshot of Kouravas AND Pandavas? Well, simply because KRISHNA WANTED IT THAT WAY. The sacred wisdom to be imparted to the warring senas of both the kouravas and Pandavas alike. Divine knowledge is meant for treading the path of the moksha for ALL sentient beings to adopt.
‘Private audience only’ was never the intended meaning of the texts. We have to be cognizant of the larger picture and should not be clouded by our own personal (effort and) accomplishments when we try to define the PURPOSE OF THE TEXTS like Gita, Vedopanishads and when we DEFINE the INTENDED TARGET AUDIENCES of the preachers of those texts. The great sages and rishis presumably wanted every sentient being to be enlightened by the wisdom packed in these invaluable treasures. It is however possible the wise men and women of the yore didn’t want dubious characters to misread, misinterpret and mispreach those sacred verses , the likes of Ravana Parabrahma for instance. I saw a famous British comedian and a talkshow host sporting a large Krishna tattoo on his left shoulder stating on TV ’ how he remained sober and clean for almost 10 yrs thanks to his meditation and yoga practice’ , he is not aspiring to become a preacher, he was able to exercise enormous self control, thanks to Krishna. ISKCON works hard to spread the message of Gita tirelessly and some people who received Gita in the streets have had their lives changed forever by just reading it. Namaste.

[jignyAsu]

So, my first question...
Within the very 1st chapter, arjun asks kṛṣṇa-jī to place his charrot in between ( madhya� is used in the śloka ) the two armies. It is here that their conversation takes place. Why in-between (viṣuvat ) ? Surely they could have gone to another place to have this discussion. Is there some significance beyond the obvious i.e. of being able to view the armies in fully array ?

Pranam Yajvan.

I think Sri Veda VyAs is just reporting a historical event here, similar to Duryodhan's discussion with Drona. Arjuna, also, mentions the reason for the request. He wanted to have a closer look of who is fighting -his friends, brothers, teachers and enemies. Looks like he was already caught up by his emotions.



Let me ask the next question. Who is the bhāgavad gītā intended for ? If one says for everyone, I say perhaps so.

It seems to have no prereq (like caste, sex etc) other than a high regard for the teacher. So, it seems to be for everyone who believes in Sri Krishna's authority (in some way or the other).



But let me then ask it another way: Who will benefit the most from this śāstra ?


That, we will never know! We can never know in whom will the supreme wisdom dawn. Sri Krishna Himself talks about men and women from all walks of life attaining the Highest! But irrespective, meditating on Gita regularly will certainly yield a progressive joy and wisdom for anyone with faith.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�

When do you think the ~official~ teaching of kṛṣṇa-jī begins ? If one is paying attention you will notice a before and after approach that occurs between the Lord and arjun. Can some one point this out ?

Can some one also point out the one śloka that is the Supreme truth offered ( in chapter 2) and the remainder of the bhāgavad gītā goes on to explain from multiple angles ?


iti śivaṁ

[brahman]

Dear Yajvan,


hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�

When do you think the ~official~ teaching of kṛṣṇa-jī begins ? If one is paying attention you will notice a before and after approach that occurs between the Lord and arjun. Can some one point this out ?
iti śivaṁ

Our POV

Lord Krishna enters the field of battle as a mere driver of Arjuna�s equipage, though he represents God or the Absolute, where Arjuna represents the status of Man.

Still Lord obeys the command of Man as a dutiful servant.

1:21 Arjuna commands: acyuata sthapayame ratham madhye ubhayor senayor

Stop my chariot right in the middle between the two armies.

1:24 Krishana obeys: Krishna sthapayitva rathottamam madhye ubhayor senayor

Krishna stationed the magnificent chariot midway between the two armies.


This Master- Servant situation continues until we reach verse 7 of the second chapter, which is the Zero Hour for Arjuna.


2:7 Pracchami tvam, yat syaat nischitam sreyah tat broohi me aham tvam sishya, saadhi maam prapannam

I ask you, that which is definitely more meritorious do indicate to me. I am your disciple; do discipline me, coming thus for your refuge.

Thus Sri. Vyasa designates another status to Arjuna as a Disciple from his previous position as a King or Master and Krishna begins the role of a Guru instead of being merely a Charioteer who brings Arjuna's chariot into the midst of the ranged armies.

Arjuna himself thus attains a new position as a representative disciple who belongs the Guru- Shishya context proper and the entire teaching begins here from now on .

------
Note: It is striking to note first of all that Arjuna's conflict is carried over from the previous chapter, where we should normally have expected it to terminate.



hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�



Can some one also point out the one śloka that is the Supreme truth offered ( in chapter 2) and the remainder of the bhāgavad gītā goes on to explain from multiple angles ?


iti śivaṁ


Verse 2:16 could be treated as the most important teaching and the essence of the whole of Bhagavad Gita.

Asatah na vidyate bhaavah, tu abhaava na vidyate satah
What is unreal (asat) cannot have being (bhava), and non-being (abhava) cannot be real (sat).

Sri. Vyasa puts it explicitly the inseparable oneness of being and becoming.

The world has no existence apart from the one Reality, and this Reality cannot exist other than in the form of the world.

However, on the contrary, the conclusion in regard to both of these, the being and becoming, has been known to seers of Ultimate Reality.

2:16 continues...

Antah api ubhayor anayor, drishtah tattvadarshibhih

The inherent truth of these two has thus been perceived by the Seers of Reality.

Rest of the chapters of the Gita are the systematic exposition of this specific secret in different angles.

Love:)

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�



I think you (brahman) make excellent points...

It is my view and opinion that the pinnicle śloka for the foundation knowledge in the bhāgavad gītā is predicated on the following (chapter 2 , 12th śloka):
there never was a time when I was not, nor you, nor these rulers of men; nor will there ever be a time when all ( of us) will cease to be.
This one verse is the wisdom of the ages. It sets the tone for the the remainder of this most noble śāstra; it allows kṛṣṇa-jī to bring out the full teaching of truth based upon this one unbounded principle of one's real status.

iti śivaṁ

[brahman]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�



I think you (brahman) make excellent points...

It is my view and opinion that the pinnicle śloka for the foundation knowledge in the bhāgavad gītā is predicated on the following (chapter 2 , 12th śloka):
there never was a time when I was not, nor you, nor these rulers of men; nor will there ever be a time when all ( of us) will cease to be.
This one verse is the wisdom of the ages. It sets the tone for the the remainder of this most noble śāstra; it allows kṛṣṇa-jī to bring out the full teaching of truth based upon this one unbounded principle of one's real status.

iti śivaṁ

Dear Yajvan,


THERE is no disagreement in choosing verse 2:12 as the meridian of wisdom with the aim of readying ourselves attuned for the purpose of self realization.

Our POV in more purified non-dualistic parlance

Every single chapter of the Bhagavad Gita is named after the word �Yoga�, which is not the yoga that is suffixed to �Hatha�, �Raja �, �Nada� etc. as it is more usually expressed in modern parlance.

Yoga is conceived in a wider sense in the Gita. Yoga literally means �union�. It is etymologically related to the English term�to yoke�. The Bhagavad Gita employs a type of reasoning which is more dialectical than linear or inferential. Dialectical reasoning in Sanskrit is called �Yoga Mimaamsa�.


The Sat and Bhava are so interlaced in yoga that they cannot be dualistically separated is already seen the verse 16 of the Second chapter.

Sat and Bhava

In general, Sat of Vedanta, is meant to represent the Absolute, which is Sat, Cit and Ananda at once.

When the Absolute is considered as Sat(general), its manifested forms in the impersonal sense are called Bhava.

Sat, Cit and Ananda, in the personal experiential sense are termed as Asti, Bhati and Priya respectively.


Significance of Asti, Bhati, Priya in chapter2 (from 2:12- 2:14)

The Asti(sat) aspect of the absolute in verse 12.
Sat(existence) is experienced by each person as our own experience of existence called Asti.

2:12 Further, never was I non-existent, nor you nor these chiefs
of men; neither shall we, all of us, ever cease becoming
hereafter.


The Bhati(cit) aspect of the Absolute in verse 13.
Cit (consciousness) is experienced as the bright functional facets of one�s own mind called Bhati.

2:13 As there is here in the body for the embodied, childhood,
youth, old age, so also the passing on to another body
in the same manner; those firm in mind are not thereby
bewildered.


The Priya(Ananda) aspect of the absolute in verse 14.
Ananda(Value sense) becomes actual in life as one�s likes and dislikes as Priya.

2:14 Momentary sense contacts on the other hand, 0 Kaunteya
(Arjuna), yielding cold-warmth, joy-pain, alternately
coming and going, are transitory. Do you endure them, 0
Bharata (Arjuna).


Verse 15 makes one qualifying for immortality.
2:15 That man indeed of firm mind who is unaffected by these, 0
Best of Men (Arjuna), equal-minded in joy as well as pain,
he is destined for immortality.


The Secret is being declared as fact in the verse 16
What is unreal (asat) cannot have being (bhava), and non-being (abhava) cannot be real (sat); the conclusion in regard to both these has been known to Seers of Reality. (see previous post) (http://hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=101320&postcount=12)


Conclusion

In our observation, we understand that, Sri. Vyasa is making a firm ground for teaching �wisdom�, right from the 12th verse itself to revealing the secret of Yoga (as stated above) in the 16th verse. Love:)

[philosoraptor]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�

When do you think the ~official~ teaching of kṛṣṇa-jī begins ? If one is paying attention you will notice a before and after approach that occurs between the Lord and arjun. Can some one point this out ?

Can some one also point out the one śloka that is the Supreme truth offered ( in chapter 2) and the remainder of the bhāgavad gītā goes on to explain from multiple angles ?


iti śivaṁ


hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�



I think you (brahman) make excellent points...

It is my view and opinion that the pinnicle śloka for the foundation knowledge in the bhāgavad gītā is predicated on the following (chapter 2 , 12th śloka):
there never was a time when I was not, nor you, nor these rulers of men; nor will there ever be a time when all ( of us) will cease to be.
This one verse is the wisdom of the ages. It sets the tone for the the remainder of this most noble śāstra; it allows kṛṣṇa-jī to bring out the full teaching of truth based upon this one unbounded principle of one's real status.

iti śivaṁ

Pranams,

I don't understand the need to point out a single verse to summarize the gItA, when the entire gItA is one integrated teaching, with each chapter building on or expanding upon the subjects introduced in previous chapters.

That being said, the verses of chapter 2 cannot by any means be said to represent the essence of this scripture. Chapter 2 is simply the foundation for the rest of what follows, discussing as it does the basics of jnaana, differentiating between the temporary body and the eternal self. Jnaana is the foundation of karma-yoga, which is discussed later, and Sri Krishna's teaching is designed to make Arjuna understand karma-yoga and its importance as a devotional act. The rest of the gItA is not an exposition of verse 2.12. Verse 2.12 is preliminary knowledge needed to understand the rest of the gItA.

Some traditions hold that the "seed verses" of the gItA are in chapter 10.



Bg 10.8 � I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who perfectly know this engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts.
Bg 10.9 � The thoughts of My pure devotees dwell in Me, their lives are fully devoted to My service, and they derive great satisfaction and bliss from always enlightening one another and conversing about Me.
Bg 10.10 � To those who are constantly devoted to serving Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me.
Bg 10.11 � To show them special mercy, I, dwelling in their hearts, destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance.

These verses are obviously not an exposition of verse 2.12, which merely states the eternal nature of the conscious living entity. Indeed, the knowledge contained here is unmistakably theistic and devotional. Lord Krishna is the source of everything. Everything. The devotees derive great bliss from conversing about, and serving Him. Sri Krishna is the one who gives the buddhi by which such devotees reach Him. In other words, one ultimately has to have His grace to get to the supreme goal.The verses following this begin with Arjuna's acceptance of these points, and his request for Sri Krishna to describe His representations in this world. This is in keeping with the principle of His all-pervasivenss as the inner controller of all other entities. Whatever is great about these other entities is thus entirely due to Sri Krishna only.

The principle of His all-pervasiveness is expanded upon in chapter 11 when Arjuna requests Krishna to display His universal form. Upon behold that magnificent form pervading the entire universe and beyond, Arjuna says:



Bg 11.32 � The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Time I am, the great destroyer of the worlds, and I have come here to destroy all people. With the exception of you [the Pāṇḍavas], all the soldiers here on both sides will be slain.
Bg 11.33 � Therefore get up. Prepare to fight and win glory. Conquer your enemies and enjoy a flourishing kingdom. They are already put to death by My arrangement, and you, O Savyasācī, can be but an instrument in the fight.
Bg 11.34 � Droṇa, Bhīṣma, Jayadratha, Karṇa and the other great warriors have already been destroyed by Me. Therefore, kill them and do not be disturbed. Simply fight, and you will vanquish your enemies in battle.

And this is why Arjuna must fight. Because in the end, Sri Krishna has ordained that this battle will take place and that these warriors will be destroyed. Arjuna can fail to do his duty, and thus remain enslaved in the cycle of birth and rebirth, or carry out his scripturally-ordained duties in a spirit of dedicating their fruits to the Lord, and thus attain perfection.

There is no one word in the bhagavad-gItA that is wasted. Every verse that is there has to be there, and the knowledge of the gItA builds up to a climax in the 18th chapter when the Lord directs Arjuna to give up the pursuit of fruitive activities and just surrender unto Him.

sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja |
ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ || gItA 18.66 ||

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast�


Let me ask the next question. Who is the bhāgavad gītā intended for ? If one says for everyone, I say perhaps so. But let me then ask it another way: Who will benefit the most from this śāstra ?


We too can answer this question another way... by being directed to chapter 6, 16th śloka), we are informed :
yoga indeed is not for him who eats too much nor for him who does not eat at all, o' arjun; it is not for him who is too much given to sleep nor yet for him who keeps awake.

If one reads this and only thinks kṛṣṇa-jī is talking of food and of sleep for the person wishing to attain to yoga will miss the subtlety of the wisdom that is offered.

iti śivaṁ

[brahman]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast�

We too can answer this question another way... by being directed to chapter 6, 16th śloka), we are informed :
yoga indeed is not for him who eats too much nor for him who does not eat at all, o' arjun; it is not for him who is too much given to sleep nor yet for him who keeps awake.

If one reads this and only thinks kṛṣṇa-jī is talking of food and of sleep for the person wishing to attain to yoga will miss the subtlety of the wisdom that is offered.

iti śivaṁ

Dear Yajvan,

A person forced by the dark forces of Tamas, may become gluttonous or abstemious, he can even remain too awake or too sleepy.

Therefore he has to go the hard way until such tendencies are polished and rounded off in order to attain the state of yoga, for Yogi is not a man of extremes.

In a windless place, however, where the extraneous factors causing the flickering are absent, the flame just burns on. 2:19

It requires only the removal of what is extraneous to the situation. Love:)

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast�


yoga indeed is not for him who eats too much nor for him who does not eat at all, o' arjun; it is not for him who is too much given to sleep nor yet for him who keeps awake.



When the Lord speaks of eating, it is the notion of feeding the senses; this includes the tongue, but is not exclusive to what one puts into their digestive track. It is what's taken in by the eyes, ears, nose, etc. He is speaking to us about not being excessive in habits.
He calls for moderation and uses the term yukta in the next śloka (6, 17th śloka).

Now this too, also has a subtler meaning. Yukta means 'fit , suitable , appropriate , proper , right', yet it also means 'yoked or joined or fastened or attached or harnessed'. What then can be the deeper meaning here?

iti śivaṁ

[brahman]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast�

When the Lord speaks of eating, it is the notion of feeding the senses; this includes the tongue, but is not exclusive to what one puts into their digestive track. It is what's taken in by the eyes, ears, nose, etc. He is speaking to us about not being excessive in habits.

[/SIZE][/FONT]

iti śivaṁ

Dear Yajvan,


Our previous post :


Therefore he has to go the hard way until such tendencies are polished and rounded off in order to attain the state of yoga, for Yogi is not a man of extremes.

When we say �tendencies�, it is not the senses alone, for sleep is not associated with any senses.

Definitely the �food� part of the sloka represents the 5 senses as distinguished from the mind; however, the �sleep� part of the sloka comes within the ambit of consciousness.

The chapter is called Dhayana Yoga.

In order to transcend the phenomenality of the world and get established in the eternal dream, an aspirant is advised NOT to oscillate his consciousness in between the extremes of sleep and waking (during mediation) is also meant here. Love:)

[brahman]

Continued
---------------


hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast�


Now this too, also has a subtler meaning. Yukta means 'fit , suitable , appropriate , proper , right', yet it also means 'yoked or joined or fastened or attached or harnessed'. What then can be the deeper meaning here?

iti śivaṁ



Uchyate yukta (verse 8), aseeta yukta (verse 14), yukta aahara(verse 17) etc.

Though the word Yukta is used differently in several verses of the same chapter, a definition proper to the frame of reference of the chapter (the unitive contemplation) is given in the verse 18 of the same chapter.

When the subdued relational mind stays in the Self itself, desireless of all desires, then (it) is said to be united.

Also the chapter ends with the verse:

Of all yogis, he who with the inner Self is merged in Me (the Absolute) full of faith, devoted to Me, is considered by Me the most Unitive- Yuktatamah. Love:)

[philosoraptor]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast�

When the Lord speaks of eating, it is the notion of feeding the senses; this includes the tongue, but is not exclusive to what one puts into their digestive track. It is what's taken in by the eyes, ears, nose, etc. He is speaking to us about not being excessive in habits.
He calls for moderation and uses the term yukta in the next śloka (6, 17th śloka).

Now this too, also has a subtler meaning. Yukta means 'fit , suitable , appropriate , proper , right', yet it also means 'yoked or joined or fastened or attached or harnessed'. What then can be the deeper meaning here?

iti śivaṁ

If by "eating," The Lord meant sense gratification in general, then (according to you), the verse really means, "there is no possibility of yoga for he who has too much sense gratification or for he who has too little sense gratification."

The first half of the statement would be easy to accept, while the second half would not. The Vedic and Puraanic tradition is full of Rishis who deny themselves the pleasures of the senses and yet attain the highest goal. Although there is no question that outward renunciation while inward meditation on the pleasures of the senses brings only disaster, the successful yogi who renounces enjoyment of the objects of the senses and remains mentally disinterested in them does not fail in the path of yoga.

I would probably go with Lord Krishna's literal words on this one. Everyone has to eat - even the most renounced Rishis will live on leaves, air, and water, but it is something.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast�

Let's look at another... chapter 2, 69th verse:
That which is night for all beings, therein the self-controlled (saṃyamī�) is awake; that wherein beings are awake is night for
the sage (muni) that sees.

What is kṛṣṇa-jī telling us? That the realized person sleeps during the day and is up at night ? There must be more to this then meets the eye.

iti śivaṁ

1.saṃyamī = saṃyam = ( the person) in control, held together ; to hold together , hold in , hold fast , restrain , curb , control , govern the senses

[philosoraptor]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast�

Let's look at another... chapter 2, 69th verse:
That which is night for all beings, therein the self-controlled (saṃyamī�) is awake; that wherein beings are awake is night for
the sage (muni) that sees.

What is kṛṣṇa-jī telling us? That the realized person sleeps during the day and is up at night ? There must be more to this then meets the eye.

iti śivaṁ

1.saṃyamī = saṃyam = ( the person) in control, held together ; to hold together , hold in , hold fast , restrain , curb , control , govern the senses

No, He is merely referring to the different tastes of the materialist compared to the yogi. What enlivens the yogi bores the materialist and vice-versa.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast�





Let's look at another... chapter 2, 69th verse:
That which is night for all beings, therein the self-controlled (saṃyamī�) is awake; that wherein beings are awake is night for
the sage (muni) that sees.



Let's look at a few ideas�...

the sage (muni) that sees = ~sees~ or is aligned with Reality, with truth, with Being itself.
night = ignorance; some would say it too is aligned to māyā and therefore keeps people in the dark, but not the sage that ~sees~.
wherein beings are awake is night for the sage = this is a bit more interesting; beings that are 'awake' suggests the ones that
are awake in the senses; where the senses drive a person from action to action. For the saṃyamī� this is 'night' , that is dormant, of little interest, as he/she is possessed of the Self. They the 'awakened ones' or sthiapraj�a move within the realm of the senses but are not attached to the objects of the senses.So, here is my next question... We have those that are ignorant, and we have those that are realized , the 'awakened ones' or sthiapraj�a .
In the middle we have those that wish to become awake, and we call them tapasvin-s. What of them ? What of the tapasvin experience
in life (kurukṣetra) ? How does the world look to them ?

iti śivaṁ

It is interesting to note that this is the 71st śloka in the gitārta saṁgraha , from abhinavagupta-ji
saṃyamī = saṃyam = ( the person) in control, held together ; to hold together , hold in , hold fast , restrain , curb , control , govern the senses

[brahman]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast�


So, here is my next question... We have those that are ignorant, and we have those that are realized , the 'awakened ones' or sthiapraj�a .
In the middle we have those that wish to become awake, and we call them tapasvin-s. What of them ? What of the tapasvin experience
in life (kurukṣetra) ? How does the world look to them ?

iti śivaṁ

It is interesting to note that this is the 71st śloka in the gitārta saṁgraha , from abhinavagupta-ji
saṃyamī = saṃyam = ( the person) in control, held together ; to hold together , hold in , hold fast , restrain , curb , control , govern the senses


Dear Yajvan,



The ignorant ones are engrossed in nescience, Avidya.


The tapasvin, is similar or bear likeness to the one in the field of Vidya, who holds Knowledge in true and absolutist sense.

However, even when they see truth they will fail to uphold it. When they see goodness they will be helpless to preserve it, because their discipline is one-sided.


The �knowledge of the actual� (YatharthaJnana) should be distinguished from the �Paramartha Jnana�, which means, the �knowledge of Ultimate Meaning�.

�Those who rejoice in the world of ignorance (Avidya) live in darkness. Those who take delight in the world of knowledge (Vidya) live, as it were, in a greater darkness� (Isa: 9)


And we have those that are realized, who have distinguished themselves from the paradox of Vidya and Avidya, the� sthiapraj�a� as we spoken of. Love:)

[Sudarshan]

Why the time and place (in between the two senas (armies)), within the earshot of Kouravas AND Pandavas? Well, simply because KRISHNA WANTED IT THAT WAY. The sacred wisdom to be imparted to the warring senas of both the kouravas and Pandavas alike. Divine knowledge is meant for treading the path of the moksha for ALL sentient beings to adopt.
�Private audience only� was never the intended meaning of the texts. We have to be cognizant of the larger picture and should not be clouded by our own personal (effort and) accomplishments when we try to define the PURPOSE OF THE TEXTS like Gita, Vedopanishads and when we DEFINE the INTENDED TARGET AUDIENCES of the preachers of those texts. The great sages and rishis presumably wanted every sentient being to be enlightened by the wisdom packed in these invaluable treasures. It is however possible the wise men and women of the yore didn�t want dubious characters to misread, misinterpret and mispreach those sacred verses , the likes of Ravana Parabrahma for instance. I saw a famous British comedian and a talkshow host sporting a large Krishna tattoo on his left shoulder stating on TV � how he remained sober and clean for almost 10 yrs thanks to his meditation and yoga practice� , he is not aspiring to become a preacher, he was able to exercise enormous self control, thanks to Krishna. ISKCON works hard to spread the message of Gita tirelessly and some people who received Gita in the streets have had their lives changed forever by just reading it. Namaste.

There is a reason why the secrets of making atomic bombs is not made public. All the universities demand certain qualifications for admission. Why not admit every one, without any pre-requisites? Let us be kind to every one!

Why there should not be any qualifying tests for studying or practising spirituality or bhagavad gita? The idea of religeous knowledge or the secrets of yoga being made available to all and sundry is a very diluted and actually harmful thought process. If you can't put into practice the teachings of one shloka of BG in your practical life, what exactly is your eligibility to study this shAstra?

Bhagavad Gita is much more than a discussion between a teacher and a disciple about to wage an all destructive war. Certainly a battle field is the last place on earth on which to deliver a sermon on the Atman.

The war here is purely spiritual, and kuruxetra denoting the mahA-vedi, the bhruvormadhya or the Ajna chakra or the mahA-smashAna is explained in our scriptures. The whole context here is about the internal yogic war that is going to be waged at the higher flights of religion, far removed from the mundane world. The eighteen chapters of the Gita describe the eighteen ladders of the yogic process, starting from arjuna-viShAda (which is the first limb of the yoga described in the Gita).

If you have noticed already, the number eighteen is a common theme of Mahabharata - eighteen parvas, eighteen chapters of Gita, eighteen akshauhinis of war, kuruxetra war lasting exactly eighteen days and so on. The number eighteen is a mystic number in this context and all these eighteen based ideas are intentionally included to convey an important spiritual idea. jaya, which is another name of Mahabharata denotes eighteen as well according to the kaTapayAdi samkhya ( ja = 8, ya =1).

This number eighteen stands for the sUxma deha of eighteen yogic principles: - five karmendriya-s, five jnAnendriya-s, five prANa-s, manas, buddhi, and ahaMkAra. The numeric symbol eighteen is used in Mahabharata to convey the tAtparya of Mahabharata (jaya or victory) as sharIra vijnAna (yogic science of the microcosm) dealing with the victory over the sUxma-sharIra.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast�


This number eighteen stands for the sUxma deha of eighteen yogic principles: - five karmendriya-s, five jnAnendriya-s, five prANa-s, manas, buddhi, and ahaMkAra. The numeric symbol eighteen is used in Mahabharata to convey the tAtparya of Mahabharata (jaya or victory) as sharIra vijnAna (yogic science of the microcosm) dealing with the victory over the sUxma-sharIra.


This notion of 18 also is discussed here : http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=45737&postcount=32 and continues within the string.

iti śivaṁ

[ShivaFan]

Namaste

Buddhiyoga is described as a yoga of the intellect. And yet, doesn�t the Gita itself designate the soul (e.g. individual consciousness) has its own, higher status than the intellect?

BG 3:42
The Senses (indriyani) are superior to sense objects
The Mind (manah) is superior to the Senses
The Intellect (buddhih) is superior to the Mind
And that which is superior to the Intellect is Atman (sah) of Individual Consciousness

There is a clear hierarchy described here. With the soul as the most superior, all the other �lesser� three, the senses, mind and intellect, are controlled by the soul. This verse comes immediately after the previous verse where Krishna recommends to control the senses which can destroy the mind and intellect if the soul is not realized.


SAH (Soul? Individual Consciousness?)
|
BUDDHI or Intellect
|
MIND
|
SENSES
|
SENSE OBJECTS

But how do you interpret �sah�?

Because the very next verse afterward 3:43, Krishna says to Arjun that by knowing what is superior to the intellect one will steady the mind and conquer lust. And what is that which is superior? Sah.

What is the best way to describe sah?

Om Namah Sivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�



But how do you interpret “sah”?
What you ask is quite enriching to one's understanding... within kaśmir śaivism this saḥ and sauḥ is held in high regard...

It is said�, as among figures, the 4-armed viṣṇu, the 3-eyed śiva, etc. among spirituous liquors, surā, āsava etc. lead one
forcibly as it were to the state of Bhairava, among all the akṣara (~ phonemes, sounds, letters) 'sa' leads to the state of Bhairava.

Why then is this is mantra sauḥ and saḥ so attractive to consider?

The parā-trīśikā vivaraṇa 19th śloka offers this to us....
It says:
adṛṣṭamandalo'pi evaṃ yaḥ
kaścid vetti tattvataḥ sa
siddhibhāgbhaven nityaṃ
sa yogī sa ca dīkṣitaḥ ||

this says,
whosoever knows truly ( this bīja-mantra sauḥ ) even if he has not seen (adṛṣṭa) the mandala, enjoys the success (yaḥ kaścid) of perfection (siddhi) eternally.
He is (perfect) yogī, he is (really) (~ vetti or vedi - wise man) initiated (dīkṣitaḥ).

More can be said ... this sauḥ is considered amṛtabīja. For a more in-depth review of this most noble sound, please consider the following HDF post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3808

iti śivaṁ

1. 'It is said' is from the āgamādhikāra 2a.12, referenced in Parā-trīśikā Vivaraṇa's review of śloka-s 9-18

[ShivaFan]

Namaste yajvan, thank you so much, wonderful!
Om Namah Sivaya

[WolfWest]

Allow me to pose two questions :

1. How should we understand the word 'brahmabhuta' in the context of 18.54 ? Is it to be interpreted in the dvaitic or advaitic sense?

2. What is the meaning of buddhi-yoga in 2.49 and 10.10 ?

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Namaste,

This is such a nice thread and to bring it up again I am sure is worthy of reading for anyone interested in the Bhagavad Gita

Yajvan Ji as always helps with some very sharp insights.


hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�

When do you think the ~official~ teaching of kṛṣṇa-jī begins ? If one is paying attention you will notice a before and after approach that occurs between the Lord and arjun. Can some one point this out ?

Can some one also point out the one śloka that is the Supreme truth offered ( in chapter 2) and the remainder of the bhāgavad gītā goes on to explain from multiple angles ?


iti śivaṁ

This is quite a difficult question due to the depth of all the slokas as Yajvan Ji mentioned that not even one word is spoken without reason.

Arjuna asks Sri Krsna to bring him in between the two armies, this middle portion is the place between the two extremes and dualities of outward going sense and mind consciousness. Its why krsna is giving so much emphasis to bring his state of mind and grief to a level of equanimity.

Back to the question at which point did the Sri Krsna start to teach the Bhagavad Gita.

In my recent re visits back to the firs chapter of Bhagavad Gita it seems that it is in this sloka

1.14

second question


Can some one also point out the one śloka that is the Supreme truth offered ( in chapter 2) and the remainder of the bhāgavad gītā goes on to explain from multiple angles ?



2.53

Namaste

[ameyAtmA]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�
Can some one also point out the one śloka that is the Supreme truth offered ( in chapter 2) and the remainder of the bhāgavad gītā goes on to explain from multiple angles ?


iti śivaṁ

Namaste

To me the ONE shloka in Bhagavad Geeta Chapter 2 is Shloka 55 for definition of Sthitapradnya / sthitapraj~na muni, which becomes the springboard for the final "EshA BramhI sthitI pArtha,..." BG2.72 - This verily is the BramhI sthitI .. where "this" references the explanation in previous shlokas

BG 2.55 :
[shri bhagavAn uvAcch : ]
prajahAti yadA kAmAnsarvAnpArtha manogatAn |
AtmanyevAtmanA tushTah: sthitapradnyastadocchyate ||

Shri BhagavAn Shri KRshNa said:
O Arjun (pArth, son of pRuthA i.e. Kunti), the point at which this one (in the body) , this purusha, gives up/resigns/throws away/gets rid of all desires of this mind, and remains content, satisfied, in this Self (AtmA) via the Self ItSelf (AtmanyevAtmanA) , at that point the one/purusha is called sthitapradnya.

This is the most beautiful definition of Sthita pradnya by the Supreme Lord, BhagavAn Shri KRshNa, and it leads to His definition of brAmhI sthiti (BG 2.72)

|| om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ||
|| Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

[markandeya 108 dasa]

Namaste


prasāde sarva-duḥkhānāḿ
hānir asyopajāyate
prasanna-cetaso hy āśu
buddhiḥ paryavatiṣṭhateTranslation of Bhagavad Gita 2.65
For one thus satisfied [in Krishna consciousness], the threefold miseries of material existence exist no longer; in such satisfied consciousness, one’s intelligence is soon well established.

[Dutta]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast�
　

I thought it may be of some interest to look at the more subtle� offers that are found within our bhāgavad gītā. Please add yours as you see fit.

Because March 20th contains the vernal equinox I thought I would start there ; we know this as the first day of spring. This equinox is known as viṣuvat - being in the middle; middle most. So, my first question...
Within the very 1st chapter, arjun asks kṛṣṇa-jī to place his charrot in between ( madhya� is used in the śloka ) the two armies. It is here that their conversation takes place. Why in-between (viṣuvat ) ? Surely they could have gone to another place to have this discussion. Is there some significance beyond the obvious i.e. of being able to view the armies in fully array ?

iti śivaṁ

words





subtle = saṃketa - a hint some may call nālikā , others may call sūcā or pointing out or piercing in.
madhya - middlemost , intermediate , central


Namaste yajvan
so beautifully you have directed the matter to discuss .
the water flows to both the directions on both side if flowing in the middle top and so is the position of Arjuna but
he asks ignorantly if shrutis direct to fight with near and dears for self pleasures and kingdom .
so if we look rigveda and refer 5 and 6 Mandalam there we find the persons performing yajnas and asking Indra or Agni to crush the near and dear ones for self pleasures and kingdom .
krsna mocks and directs to logic saying that you are a kshatriya and its religion is to fight for just by himself and not begging the divines to .
i don't know but can anybody expect the divines or the God himself to come to fight for help , illogical of course .
rig says ...kasmai devay havisha vidhem ?
Of course not possible for one who is beyond any physical approach so not renunciation but abandonment of fruitative actions is the only way bhagvadgita teaches .
jai Sri krsna