Ram and Rama

[sapansaxena]

I always had a mythological curiosity, it has always been there. I asked it like an open ended question to everyone, and I got different answers. I am sure many gurus and intellectuals active on this website would have their own interpretations and answerx, I have my own.

Now we all know that Valmiki was firstly a dangerous and violent dacoit called Ratnakar who used to kill people mercilessly. He got changed when he muttered Rama, when repeating Mara, mara on the behest of Narad Muni. So, we assume Rama had already gained a God-like status by then. A divine status.

Now, lets focus on another legend, which says that a pregnant Sita had to live at Valmiki's ashram, where Lav and Kush were born. We are also aware that Lav and Kush used to study Ramayana in the Ashram. So, Valmiki must have composed Ramayana by then, or would still be composing parts of Ramayana.

Ram and Sita endured a 14 years exile and. before that, Ram and Laxman are said to be young just out of their studies, which as per our sacred texts, used to finish quite early in their lives.
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Assuming Rama was around 35-36(or max 40) years old when Sita was stranded at Valmiki's ashram, Valmiki had already gained a lot of ascendancy by then. Which means, the incident which changed Valmiki from Ratnakar must have happened at least 5 years back(when Rama was 30-31).

Now, if Rama was born as a legend(or God), everything sounds fine. But if Rama earned this divinity, something doesnt sound right. 30-31 is not the age(specially when you have not even won the war with Ravana by then) when you could be considered God, or a legend. Was there another Rama by then?


My take to this question is, maybe yes, and Dashrat's son Rama was named after the divine Lord Ram, and Rama with his "maryada-puroshottam" attributes and the epic war with Ravana in which he earned God-like divine status, made Rama equal in stature to Ram, and since then we know of only one Rama. A divine merger?

Another fact which supports the view is the naming of Parsuram-the Rama with the axe. Parsuram was present during the times of Rama, he even had a dual with Laxman, and was probably born before Rama. Why would he be named Parsuram, then? Certainly because people were aware of a sacred or a divine figure by the name of Ram, by then. Also, Narad Muni would have made Ratnakar chant the same name..

Some poeple also claim Ram as another name of Shiva, though personally I am not too sold out with the fact.
This is an open ended question. I dont know if anything is right or wron, but there surely seems to be a valid doubt and a valid explanation. What do you think?

-Sapan
http://credibleindian.blogspot.com

[jignyAsu]

I always had a mythological curiosity, it has always been there.

Namaste Sapan. For me these are what they intended to be - a historical account. And I derive immense happiness too, though some of them are difficult to be reconstructed in my mind. Valimiki Ramayan alone seems to have this status; while other great works have been created based on this.



Now, lets focus on another legend, which says that a pregnant Sita had to live at Valmiki's ashram, where Lav and Kush were born. We are also aware that Lav and Kush used to study Ramayana in the Ashram. So, Valmiki must have composed Ramayana by then, or would still be composing parts of Ramayana.


Valmiki Ramayan begins with Sage Narad giving summary of the Ramayana. He ends saying that Rama having rescued Sita has regained the kingdom. Therefore the Sage composed the great epic just after this. He then predicts that Rama will rule for another 11000 years before He will enter His abode.

Lav Kush learned this Ramayana from the sage and so, yes, it definetely happened before.



Ram and Sita endured a 14 years exile and. before that, Ram and Laxman are said to be young just out of their studies, which as per our sacred texts, used to finish quite early in their lives.

There was possibly another 12 years in between - living their married life in Ayodhya that followed their journey with the Sage Vishwamitra.



Now, if Rama was born as a legend(or God), everything sounds fine.

Valmiki Ramayan and other scriptures are clear in pronouncing Rama as an avatar of Vishnu. The Holy Name "Rama" is eternal. Also, Rama keeps taking avatara at every chatur yuga and so it is not like before the Avatara no one has heard of Him.



Another fact which supports the view is the naming of Parsuram-the Rama with the axe. Parsuram was present during the times of Rama, he even had a dual with Laxman, and was probably born before Rama. Why would he be named Parsuram, then?

The word "Rama" means one who attracts others or steals others' hearts, which is present the fullest in God. They were all named because of this quality. Sage Vashista who knew Him to be an avatar, specifically named Him thus.



This is an open ended question. I dont know if anything is right or wron, but there surely seems to be a valid doubt and a valid explanation. What do you think?

-Sapan

I am happy with the attempt to take our history seriously. Definetely these epics have a lot of clues hidden which does not flash to us in a day. Also, there are many great souls out there who have already done some research in this regard. We could read their works and see if everything in Ramayana falls in place.

[sapansaxena]

Namaste jigyansu

Believe me, I always had doubts since a lot of time, and the answers you have provided satisfy all the queries that I had. Though, I would love to reassess and come back to asking these, but on the face, your explanation seems perfect

[philosoraptor]

Now, if Rama was born as a legend(or God), everything sounds fine. But if Rama earned this divinity, something doesnt sound right. 30-31 is not the age(specially when you have not even won the war with Ravana by then) when you could be considered God, or a legend. Was there another Rama by then?

Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly.

Having ignored what the text says about Rama, you assume that Rama was a mortal being who "earned" his "divine status." And in so doing, you uncovered an inconsistency, one which would not have been there had you just accepted what the text itself said.

So... what exactly is the problem here, for which you are clamoring for a solution?

[ShivaFan]

Namaste Sapansaxena

If others do not already answer your thoughts, and it looks like some good response has been provided, I might think about your post a bit and perhaps offer a response. However, I am at work and on a lunch break so there isn't much time.

But just one quick thought, if your inquiry pertains in part to the sequential order of the Historical events in the Ramayana, the relationships between the Personalities involved in terms of time, past, present and future, the measurement of time, and of what was known before it has happened or speaking of such things of the past, present or future, of those Personalities here or thede or spoken of, consideration should be made of the following:

We know that Kalki is coming. I do not live in those end times when such will occur. But I may speak of such as if I am there, or as if I observed it and am looking in the past. We know that Yajnavalkya will be the instructor of the Shukla and Krishna Yajurveda to Kalki. We know Yajnavalkya from the past. We know Yajnavalkya of the future.

Because a Sage in Varanasi, for example, knows Yajnavalkya, and praises the student of Yajnavalkya known as Kalki Who will be associated with a Horse, and though this Sage speaks on the banks of Tulsi Ghat of these things as if they are now but are in the future and spoken by one living in this very hour does not mean something is out of order in the sequence of things, the hour, minute or second or yuga, or yugas, or Those involved have Names but are not yet Seen or born, this means nothing.

There are people who age 10 years in 1 year, or suddenly are young again. Some say it may be age due to stress or horror, and that maybe true in some cases.

But there are places in this world, doors even or tirthas, where if you find yourself there you live for 365 days but when you come out only 1 day has passed in the place you returned to. While at that other far shore, it is not that it seemed like 1 year but only was 1 day. You actually did many things, and it was 365 days indeed. Returning, it is only 1 day later.

Kala is measured in the drum of Shiva. What you hear of the beat, all depends. It may beat slow to your ear. And fast to another. But it was measured nevertheless. There was no mistake in its measure.

Om Namah Sivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté




The word "Rama" means one who attracts others or steals others' hearts, which is present the fullest in God. They were all named because of this quality. Sage Vashista who knew Him to be an avatar, specifically named Him thus.

Some other ideas to offer to the conversation... just to extend it and bring more fullness to the name.

When one speaks of rāma the implication is rāma-candra , yet one too can be talking of paraśurāma (sometimes called jāmadagnya), or of bala-rāma . Hence we can say there are 3 and at times this word rāma can be applied to the number 3.

Yet this word rāma has the following definitions and associations:

pleasing , pleasant , charming , lovely , beautiful
pleasure , joy , delight
when looking to one of its roots √ ram we have the definition - to gladden , delight , please , caress , enjoy
this root ram is also to stop , stay , make fast , calm , set at rest rāmaḥ walks not, he sits not. He sorrows not, He desires not, He abandons not. There is no trace of any activity in Him... adyātma rāmāyaṇa ( bālakanda, 43rd śloka )

The adyātma rāmāyaṇa ( bālakanda section ) informs us, rāmaḥ is the Supreme Self, distinct from prakṛti. He is the one all-comprehending Being who is pure bliss itself and Spirit Supreme over all entities. He is unaffected by māyā, says the 20th śloka.

The 24th śloka says the lotused-eyed Lord ( rāmaḥ ) is the witness to ignorance and not a victim of it.

The rāmpurvatāpinyu upaniṣad also gives us a hint to this Supreme person.

rāmapūrvatāpinyu = rām + pūrva+tāpin+yu

rām = rāma = joy, delight, pleasing , pleasant , charming , lovely , beautiful ; also rooted √ ram meaning dark , dark-coloured
pūrva = most ancient; former; prior; 1st
tāpin = glowing
yu (2nd derivative) is rooted √ yuj meaning unite, bind, yoke Hence this upaniṣad is the wisdom to unite with that glowing most ancient one rāma , that brings joy.


data eka rāmā bhikāri sari duniyā- the giver is the one rāmaḥ , the world is a beggar.

iti śivaṁ

[Ra K Sankar]

Namaste

I too have been inspired by "Adhyatma Ramayana", the spiritual version of the Rama Saga,:)
translated from Malayalam into English by the Late Vice-President of the Sri Ramakrishna Order, Swami Tapasyananda.

For, it deals directly with spirituality, although some may claim that it is a subsequent composition
posterior to the original "revelatory" version of Ramayana by Sage Valmiki.

Regards
Ra K Sankar

[sapansaxena]

rāmapūrvatāpinyu = rām + pūrva+tāpin+yu

rām = rāma = joy, delight, pleasing , pleasant , charming , lovely , beautiful ; also rooted √ ram meaning dark , dark-coloured
pūrva = most ancient; former; prior; 1st
tāpin = glowing
yu (2nd derivative) is rooted √ yuj meaning unite, bind, yoke Hence this upaniṣad is the wisdom to unite with that glowing most ancient one rāma , that brings joy.

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data eka rāmā bhikāri sari duniyā- the giver is the one rāmaḥ , the world is a beggar.

iti śivaṁ
Namaste

There certainly was a lot to learn from the replies and responses provided here. I wasnt aware of many of these lines of thoughts.

The explanation of Kalki also seems to be correct, which means people were aware Rama will take birth, but the question is, when did people realize he was the Rama they had always been waiting for? Or was it known somehow, Rama would be the eldest son of Dashrath? What do you think? Was it mentioned somewhere?

I was trying to search for a radical view here, things which are history, more than mythology. So, I do see certain conflicts here.
Please pardon me for my line of thoughts, there are many intellectuals here, and all of them have in-depth knowledge of our legends. But, I would like to rationalize the legends more than believing in them.

[sapansaxena]

Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly.

Having ignored what the text says about Rama, you assume that Rama was a mortal being who "earned" his "divine status." And in so doing, you uncovered an inconsistency, one which would not have been there had you just accepted what the text itself said.

So... what exactly is the problem here, for which you are clamoring for a solution?

Namaste!!!
I assume Rama was a mortal being who earned his divine status. Then, the timelines dont match with sage Narad converting sage Valmiki.
The problem is the what JignyAsu ji has answered. What if its history, and the inconsistency was there?

[jignyAsu]

The explanation of Kalki also seems to be correct, which means people were aware Rama will take birth, but the question is, when did people realize he was the Rama they had always been waiting for? Or was it known somehow, Rama would be the eldest son of Dashrath? What do you think? Was it mentioned somewhere?


I hope you are still not thinking that Parasurama etc. were named after the actual Dasaratha Nandan Rama. "Rama" is an eternal Holy Name. Lord Shiva deems it to be equalent to 1000 other Names of Vishnu - in Padma Purana.

Dasaratha Nandana Ram fully represents that Name, I guess.

Reg the Avatar, I don't think people were waiting for Him. The devas knew of His coming. But once Rama appeared, I think many recognized Him, including Hanuman ofcourse.



I was trying to search for a radical view here, things which are history, more than mythology. So, I do see certain conflicts here.
Please pardon me for my line of thoughts, there are many intellectuals here, and all of them have in-depth knowledge of our legends. But, I would like to rationalize the legends more than believing in them.

How do you take it when you read that Rama appeared in Treta Yuga (>1million years back) or that people used ot survive for 100 thousand years or Rishis could see one's future? Do you take it as it is or you search for some other meaning..just curious? All these accounts are consistent, ofcourse, but different.

[philosoraptor]

Namaste!!!
I assume Rama was a mortal being who earned his divine status. Then, the timelines dont match with sage Narad converting sage Valmiki.
The problem is the what JignyAsu ji has answered. What if its history, and the inconsistency was there?

Scripturally speaking, you don't "earn" divine status.

The point here is that there are no inconsistencies if you accept the verdict of the rAmAyaNa that rAma is the supreme person from the very beginning. When you discard these views and make other assumptions not supported by the text, why would you stick to them when they lead to inconsistencies?

Why exactly do you have difficulty taking Valmiki at his word? If you believe he was lying about Rama, then what difference do any other historical details chronicled by him make? All of it becomes suspect in that case, no?

[Ra K Sankar]

Namaste

Saint Tyagaraja has stated that the Name "Rama" is derived
by adding Ra (from NaRAyanaya") and Ma (from NaMAsivaya).

When "ra" is removed, "Na Ayanaya" results meaning "not to a path".
When "ma" is removed, "Na Sivaya" results "not to auspiciousness".

Thus, "Rama" means "auspicious path" to realization.:)

Regards
Ra K Sankar

[sapansaxena]

I hope you are still not thinking that Parasurama etc. were named after the actual Dasaratha Nandan Rama. "Rama" is an eternal Holy Name. Lord Shiva deems it to be equalent to 1000 other Names of Vishnu - in Padma Purana.

Dasaratha Nandana Ram fully represents that Name, I guess.

Reg the Avatar, I don't think people were waiting for Him. The devas knew of His coming. But once Rama appeared, I think many recognized Him, including Hanuman ofcourse.



.

Namaste jigyAnsu,
One of my posts in this thread never got published, where I had concluded that your initial post had answered all my queries and cleared all confusions.



How do you take it when you read that Rama appeared in Treta Yuga (>1million years back) or that people used ot survive for 100 thousand years or Rishis could see one's future? Do you take it as it is or you search for some other meaning..just curious? All these accounts are consistent, ofcourse, but different


I think you just read my curiosity perfectly, I dont want to take these things on their face, and like to search on "how were they able to". I am fully aware that ancient Vedic men had knowledge beyond the grasps of even modern day scientists and doctors, and may be because of the advanced medication present in the day, they were able to live beyond 100 years, but I search for them in the texts available and people present in various forums, like this.