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shiv.somashekhar
28 March 2013, 12:29 PM
Is there a clear definition for the label of Vaishnava? The standard definition of "Worshipper of Vishnu" appears to be incomplete as Smarthas who worship Krishna/Vishnu are not usually counted among Vaishnavas. So is there more to it - such as accepting a hierarchy which puts Hari/Narayana on the top?

Backing up, is there consensus on the definition or is that controversial too?

Thanks

orlando
28 March 2013, 03:47 PM
Namaste shiv.somashekhar

A good definition of vaishnava could be one who belongs to one of the five main vaishnava sampradayas:
http://www.harekrsna.com/philosophy/gss/sadhu/sampradayas/branches.gif

Pranama,
Bhakta Orlando.

brahma jijnasa
31 March 2013, 08:12 PM
Namaste


Is there a clear definition for the label of Vaishnava? The standard definition of "Worshipper of Vishnu" appears to be incomplete as Smarthas who worship Krishna/Vishnu are not usually counted among Vaishnavas. So is there more to it - such as accepting a hierarchy which puts Hari/Narayana on the top?

Backing up, is there consensus on the definition or is that controversial too?

Thanks

I do not know whether the definition of "Vaishnava" is controversial or not, but I can give you a description of the term from Vaishnava point of view.

First of all a Vaishnava means that one should have an idea of the Supreme or Brahman as the Supreme Person or Supreme God and not as something impersonal.
There are also advaitins who would say that they are also vaishnavas because they think that to be a vaishnava simply means to be a worshiper of Lord Vishnu. However none of the Vaishnava sampradayas would agree that advaitins are true vaishnavas. Genuine vaishnava would never think that Lord Vishnu is a manifestation of maya or illusion, but rather he would think that Lord Vishnu as Supreme Lord or Supreme Person is the Supreme Brahman and ultimate truth or reality. Truth or reality is quite the opposite to illusion.
True vaishnava would never want to merge into the Lord and thus become one with Him. This is said in the scriptures. See Bhāgavatam 3.25.34 ( http://vedabase.net/sb/3/25/34/ ):


"A pure devotee, who is attached to the activities of devotional service and who always engages in the service of My lotus feet, never desires to become one with Me."

A goal of a Vaishnava is not something impersonal, impersonal Brahman, but a person of Lord Vishnu.

To be a Vaishnava means to be a devotee of Lord Vishnu or some of his personal forms known as Krishna, Narayana, Rama, Balarama, Narasimha etc.
Further on to be a Vaishnava does not mean to be just "a worshiper" but a person totally dedicated to the Lord with bhakti. True vaishnava is rendering bhakti to the Lord according to the descriptions given in the scriptures. Bhakti that is performed contrary to the descriptions given in the scriptures is not credible. There are many descriptions in the scriptures how to perform bhakti. There is even a group of scriptures called Vaishnava Puranas dedicated to these topics.

regards

philosoraptor
31 March 2013, 08:57 PM
Is there a clear definition for the label of Vaishnava? The standard definition of "Worshipper of Vishnu" appears to be incomplete as Smarthas who worship Krishna/Vishnu are not usually counted among Vaishnavas. So is there more to it - such as accepting a hierarchy which puts Hari/Narayana on the top?

Backing up, is there consensus on the definition or is that controversial too?

Thanks

Well, is there a consensus definition of "smArtha?" Technically, a "smArtha" is merely one who follows smRiti, and yet while most vaiShNavas follow smRiti, they are not called as smArthas.

Eastern Mind
31 March 2013, 09:12 PM
Vannakkam: I would be incredibly surprised if a definition suitable to all would come out of any discussion.

I do know there is a difference between a Vaishnava, and a Smarta with Vishnu as his ishta. I have net both.

Aum Namasivaya

jignyAsu
03 April 2013, 08:54 AM
A Vaishnava is one who accepts Vishnu/Krishna/Rama as the supreme among deities.

If "Smarthas" are discounted from being Vaishnavas, it is most probably because they do not worship Him as supreme but tend to equate other deities as equal to Him.

I have specifically heard some Sri Vaishnava scholars referring to Sri Adi Shankara as a Vaishnava and so Advaitis, too, can fall in this category if they regard Vishnu as the supreme among worshippable.

Eastern Mind
03 April 2013, 12:53 PM
Vannakkam: In my experience, I've more often hear Sankara portrayed as a Saivite, even as an avatar of Siva, most likely because of the ash.

I think Smartas can generally be a 'Saiva' or a 'Vaishnava' or a 'Shakta' all depending on the moment.

Sort of like the hired car drivers of India, who switch religions based on the faith of the passenger.

I experienced a Smarta priest once, (we didn't know) who we'd invited to do a major festival for us. All went well until right before the final aarti, when he suddenly stopped and gave us all a personalised lesson on Vedanta that lasted nearly an hour. The entire shakti that had been built up by the devotees to that moment dissipated. :) Great fun. :rolleyes:

Aum Namasivaya

Ganeshprasad
07 April 2013, 10:08 AM
Pranam



Are there any references in the Puranas or Ithihas ?
I would be interested if there was any.

I guess such tags, as Vasihnava Shaiva, Sakta became prominent in medieval period or perhaps during Bhakti renascence
traditionally i would like to think, it was all varnasharam and such tags, perhaps were not so important as people progressed from brahmachari to grahast to vanasprasat to Sanyas.


So who is Vaisnava? Narsinh Mehta 15th century bhakta of Lord Krishna wrote poem in which he describes who truly is Vaishnava.

Lyrics of the bhajan:

Gujarati
વૈષ્ણવ જન તો તેને કહિયે, જે પીડ પરાયી જાણે રે
પર દુ:ખે ઉપકાર કરે તોયે, મન અભિમાન ન આણે રે. ॥ધૃ॥

સકળ લોકમાં સહુને વંદે, નિંદા ન કરે કેની રે
વાચ કાછ મન નિશ્છળ રાખે ધન ધન જનની તેની રે. ॥૧॥

સમદૃષ્ટિ ને તૃષ્ણા ત્યાગી પરસ્ત્રી જેને માત રે
જિહ્વા થકી અસત્ય ન બોલે પરધન નવ ઝાલે હાથ રે. ॥૨॥

મોહ માયા વ્યાપે નહિ જેને દૃઢ વૈરાગ્ય જેના મનમાં રે
રામ નામ શુ તાળી રે લાગી સકળ તીરથ તેના તનમાં રે. ॥૩॥

વણ લોભી ને કપટ રહિત છે, કામ ક્રોધ નિવાર્યાં રે
ભણે નરસૈયો તેનું દર્શન કરતાં કુળ એકોતેર તાર્યાં રે. ॥૪॥

One who is a Vaishnav (one who is a devotee of Vishnu)
Knows the pain of others
Does good to others, especially to those ones who are in misery
Does not let pride enter his mind

A Vaishnav, Tolerates and praises the the entire world
Does not say bad things about anyone
Keeps his/her words, actions and thoughts pure
O Vaishnav, your mother is blessed

A Vaishnav sees everything equally, rejects greed and avarice
Considers some one else's wife/daughter as his mother
The toungue may get tired, but will never speak lies
Does not even touch someone else's property

A Vaishnav does not succumb to worldly attachments
Who has devoted himself to staunch detachment to worldly pleasures
Who has been addicted to the elixir coming by the name of Ram
For whom all the religious sites are in the mind

Who has no greed and deceit
Who has renounced lust of all types and anger
The poet Narsi will like to see such a person
By who's virtue, the entire family gets salvation

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oatagIyRz0g

Jai Shree Krishna

Sahasranama
07 April 2013, 11:45 AM
Namaste shiv.somashekhar

A good definition of vaishnava could be one who belongs to one of the five main vaishnava sampradayas:


This is a bad definition of a Vaishnava in the same way that defining smartha as a follower of Shankaracharya is inaccurate. This is like saying that Hinduism didn't exist before medieval times. Before these five sampradayas became popular there were many other groups of Vaishnavas, like the vaikhanasa etc.

Sahasranama
07 April 2013, 11:56 AM
Pranam

Are there any references in the Puranas or Ithihas ?
I would be interested if there was any.

Jai Shree Krishna

Yes, there are references in the Purana about who is a vaishnava and the definition is somewhat similar to the bhajan you have quoted.

philosoraptor
07 April 2013, 12:19 PM
Yes, there are references in the Purana about who is a vaishnava and the definition is somewhat similar to the bhajan you have quoted.

Please quote these references. I don't believe you at all. And by the way, after you quote those references, I will just ignore them anyway.

Sahasranama
07 April 2013, 12:24 PM
I thought it was in the brahmavaivarta purana, but I can't find it right now. Once I find it I will make a scan for you to ignore.

philosoraptor
07 April 2013, 12:31 PM
I thought it was in the brahmavaivarta purana, but I can't find it right now. Once I find it I will make a scan for you to ignore.

I have the BVP but never read it in its entirety. On a serious note, I seem to recall a clear reference from the varAha purANa. I will check it out and see.

brahma jijnasa
07 April 2013, 04:22 PM
Please quote these references. I don't believe you at all. And by the way, after you quote those references, I will just ignore them anyway.

Why would you ignore?

regards

philosoraptor
07 April 2013, 05:32 PM
Why would you ignore?

regards


I wouldn't. I was just channeling a certain other member of these forums....

brahma jijnasa
07 April 2013, 11:46 PM
I wouldn't. I was just channeling a certain other member of these forums....

Very funny. I do not remember who it was.
I noticed this "adept at Kutarka", I remember this.

regards

brahma jijnasa
07 April 2013, 11:48 PM
Yes there are many references in the Puranas and other scriptures about who is a vaishnava. Take for example this one, Bhāgavatam 11.2.53 (http://vedabase.net/sb/11/2/53/en) :


tri-bhuvana-vibhava-hetave 'py akuṇṭha-
smṛtir ajitātma-surādibhir vimṛgyāt
na calati bhagavat-padāravindāl
lava-nimiṣārdham api yaḥ sa vaiṣṇavāgryaḥ

"The lotus feet of the Supreme Personality of Godhead are sought even by the greatest of demigods, such as Brahmā and Śiva, who have all accepted the Supreme Personality of Godhead as their life and soul. A pure devotee of the Lord can never forget those lotus feet in any circumstance. He will not give up his shelter at the lotus feet of the Lord for a single moment -- indeed, not for half a moment -- even in exchange for the benediction of ruling and enjoying the opulence of the entire universe. Such a devotee of the Lord is to be considered the best of the Vaiṣṇavas."


I have specifically heard some Sri Vaishnava scholars referring to Sri Adi Shankara as a Vaishnava and so Advaitis, too, can fall in this category if they regard Vishnu as the supreme among worshippable.

It seems that there are different opinions as to who can be considered a Vaishnava.
Let's say there are modern concepts and those who are not so orthodox, as well as those that are more orthodox. I quoted Bhāgavatam 3.25.34 ( http://vedabase.net/sb/3/25/34/ ) to show how according to orthodox opinion one can not be accepted as true vaishnava if he wants to become one with The Lord.

regards

Ganeshprasad
08 April 2013, 09:13 AM
Pranam

Simply wonderful! ''channeling certain other member of these Forums''

well well, this really does raise the level of discussion on this forum.

potentials are endless.

Jai Shree Krishna

jopmala
08 April 2013, 01:11 PM
Namaste to all

The question “ who is a vaishnab “ has been asked to Chitanya Mahapravu by his followers.

1. Chapter 15 of Madhya lila ( Chaitanya Charitamrita)

“ Satyaraj kahe- vaisnab chinibo kemone” / “Ke vaishnab kaha tar samanya lakshmane”

“ Pravu kahe jar mukhe suni ekbar” / "Krishna nam, pujya sei sreshtha savakar”

“ Ataeiba jar mukhe ek Krishna nam” / “ Sei vaishnab kari tar param samman”

Translation : Satyaraj wants to know how to identify or recognize a vaishnab or symptoms of vaishnab . Mahapravu replies that hearing only Krishna nam from some one , is highly regarded as vaishnab

2. Chapter 16 of Madhy lila ( Chaitanya Charitamrita)

“ Tenho kahe – ke vaishnab ki tar lakshman” / "Tabe hasi kahe pravu jani tar mana”

“ Krishna nam nirantar jahar badane” / “ sei vaishnab sreshtha bhajha tahar charane”

“ jahar darsane mukhe aise Krishna nam” / ” tahare janiha tumi vaishnab pradhan”

Translation : When one of his followers desires to know about who is actually vaishnab and what is his symptoms, Mahapravu understanding his mind smiles and replies that a person who is always engaged with Krishna nam ( you may have a better translation of this line “ Krishna nam nirantar jahar badane”, will be regarded as vaishnab srestha and we should serve ( bhaja tahar charan) his feet. Pravu again says that whose very appearance makes others to utter Krishna nam , he is regarded as vaishnab pradhan.

3. Chapter 17 of Madhya lila ( Chaitanya Charitamrita)

“ Pravu kahe mayavadi Krishna aparadhi” / “ brahma atma chaitanya kahe nirabadhi”

“ ateiab tar mukhe na aise Krishna nam” / “ Krishna nam Krishna swarup duita saman”

Translation : Mahapravu says that advaitavadi or mayavadi are Krishna aparadhi ( offender) because they never utter krishna nam instead they utter the words brahma ,atma , chaitanya . Mahapravu says that both krishna nam and krishna swarup are same.

shiv.somashekhar
08 April 2013, 06:27 PM
Jopmala,

Advaitins/Mayavadins do chant the name of Krishna. I do not know where Chaitanya got his information from, but he is wrong on this one.

It looks like Vaishnava does not have a clear definition, but it appears to be more than just a worshiper of Vishnu. The Vaishnava has to accept Vishnu as the Supreme, thus also accepting some type of a hierarchy.

There is a difference between definition and expectation. The definition provides the criteria for identification. For example, the Gita describes the characteristics of each Varna in the Gita. This is not a definition, but expectations of how one belonging to a certain Varna may behave or should strive for. Similarly, the Bhajan posted by Ganesh is not a definition, but a set of expectations from a Vaishnava.

orlando
11 April 2013, 04:02 AM
Namaste.


This is a bad definition of a Vaishnava in the same way that defining smartha as a follower of Shankaracharya is inaccurate. This is like saying that Hinduism didn't exist before medieval times. Before these five sampradayas became popular there were many other groups of Vaishnavas, like the vaikhanasa etc.

Please note that I wasn't talking from a generic hindu point of view but from a gaudiya-vaishnava perspective:) ;)

Pranama,
Orlando.

philosoraptor
13 May 2013, 10:19 AM
Here is the reference from the varAha purANa. This is the translation from the AITM series. I don't have the Sanskrit with me at the moment. It's 211.90 in the AITM edition for those who are interested.

"90. While worshipping me, one would attain the highest station of Visnu. The Vaisnavites, О propitious madam, do purify the entire universe."