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caitanya
12 April 2013, 06:08 AM
Hare Krishna,

I have question regarding this :

kṣīraḿ (http://vedabase.net/k/ksiram) yathā (http://vedabase.net/y/yatha) dadhi (http://vedabase.net/d/dadhi) vikāra (http://vedabase.net/v/vikara)-viśeṣa (http://vedabase.net/v/visesa)-yogāt (http://vedabase.net/y/yogat)
sajāyate (http://vedabase.net/s/sanjayate) na (http://vedabase.net/n/na) hi (http://vedabase.net/h/hi) tataḥ (http://vedabase.net/t/tatah) pṛthag asti (http://vedabase.net/a/asti) hetoḥ (http://vedabase.net/h/hetoh)
yaḥ (http://vedabase.net/y/yah) śambhutām (http://vedabase.net/s/sambhutam) api (http://vedabase.net/a/api) tathā (http://vedabase.net/t/tatha) samupaiti (http://vedabase.net/s/samupaiti) kāryād
govindam (http://vedabase.net/g/govindam) ādi (http://vedabase.net/a/adi)-puruṣaḿ (http://vedabase.net/p/purusam) tam (http://vedabase.net/t/tam) ahaḿ (http://vedabase.net/a/aham) bhajāmi (http://vedabase.net/b/bhajami)

Just as milk is transformed into curd by the action of acids, but yet the effect curd is neither same as, nor different from, its cause, viz., milk, so I adore the primeval Lord Govinda of whom the state of Sambhu is a transformation for the performance of the work of destruction.

BS 5.45

PURPORT ( EXcerpt)

..............The nondistinction is established by the fact that just as milk treated with acid turns into curd so Godhead becomes a subservient when He Himself attains a distinct personality by the addition of a particular element of adulteration. This personality has no independent initiative. The said adulterating principle is constituted of a combination of the stupefying quality of the deluding energy, the quality of nonplenitude of the marginal potency and a slight degree of the ecstatic-cum-cognitive principle of the plenary spiritual potency.....

To whom element of adulteration is added ? Who gets stupified by deluding energy ?

Omkara
15 April 2013, 10:30 AM
To whom element of adulteration is added ? Who gets stupified by deluding energy ?

This has been debated here-

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=5107

philosoraptor
15 April 2013, 03:44 PM
Indeed. To whom is this element of adulteration / deluding energy added? I'm not all that comfortable with this position, which seems to indicate that nArAyaNa, though ordinarily faultless, can nevertheless be adulterated in one specific instance and then you get shiva.

Now, we could argue that there is no process of adulteration that takes place, but rather this seemingly linear succession of events is just the way to explain shiva's position vis-a-vis nArAyaNa, just as some people describe jIva-s as "reflections" of the paramAtmA. Still, I find it troubling on several levels:

1) It implies an "in between status" for this shiva, who is neither brahman nor a jIva, although no such category of conscious living entities is implied in the vedAnta as far as I know.
2) Or alternately it implies that shiva is also brahman, which is difficult to reconcile with many pramANas in the bhAgavatam which clearly refute that.

caitanya
16 April 2013, 03:13 AM
Namaskar


Thankyou Omkara ji and Philosoraptor ji .

My position is similar as Philosoraptor if i understood correctly . The purport implies that Krishna can limit himself by using his deluding energy and tranform in to another being out of his own will.

Then this somehow supports the advaitic view that If Krishna can transform in to Shiva using his maya ,he can trasnform in to jiva as well using his maya if we dont consider Shiva as jiva .

deluding energy
Krishna ----------------------> Shiva
deluding energy
Krishna ----------------------> Jiva

your views please .

Caitanya

philosoraptor
16 April 2013, 10:00 AM
Exactly. You hit the nail on the head.

caitanya
17 April 2013, 03:18 AM
Namaskar,

Thanks Philosoraptor ji.

How does ISKCON view this puirport . Can anyone from ISKCON
please share their views .


Ciatanya

caitanya
24 April 2013, 09:11 AM
Namaskar ,

No ISKCON views here ....


Caitanya

brahma jijnasa
27 April 2013, 03:08 PM
No ISKCON views here ....



Omkara instructed you to the Gaudiya (ISKCON) thread Re: LORd SIVA : A Gaudiya Vaisnava Perspective where I have discussed this issue with philosoraptor.
Why don't you read it, everything's there?


To whom element of adulteration is added ? Who gets stupified by deluding energy ?

It is obvious that Lord Krishna is never adulterated or stupefied by deluding energy because he is described as immutable in the scriptures. He is also described as infallible (acyuta), He do not fall from his position.
Lord Krishna uses his energy to bring a particular jiva to the position of guna avatara Lord Shiva. This process is explained as a transformation of energy of the Lord. Lord Krishna uses his energy to empower a particular jiva so that this jiva may serve as a demigod Shiva and destroy the world.
That's it.
There is no mystery about it. I do not understand why people have problems with this concept.

regards

philosoraptor
27 April 2013, 08:02 PM
Lord Krishna uses his energy to bring a particular jiva to the position of guna avatara Lord Shiva. This process is explained as a transformation of energy of the Lord. Lord Krishna uses his energy to empower a particular jiva so that this jiva may serve as a demigod Shiva and destroy the world.
That's it.
There is no mystery about it. I do not understand why people have problems with this concept.

regards

Pranams,

I don't think anyone has a problem with the concept as you have explained it. The problem, I think, is the doubt many others legitimately have when they see statements in the writings of Sri Bhaktisiddhanta and Sri Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada to effect that "Shiva is not a second Godhead" and "there is no difference between Shiva and Vishnu" and so on. Such statements are not made about other shaktyavesha-avatAras, and so they naturally seem to imply more sameness and identity between Shiva and Vishnu which is quite contradictory to the classical Vaishnava view that nArAyaNa is NOT a jIva, and is the only master of all the jIvas, devas like Shiva included.

Your explanation in many ways seems not entirely consistent to me with what recent Gaudiya Vaishnavas in the Saraswata line have stated on this subject. It seems that you are interpreting their views in such a way as to make them more compatible with the views of other Vaishnavas. That's just my very unqualified impression, so please don't take offense. Also, don't take any of this as a criticism of the Gaudiyas, who otherwise do have many interesting positions in their philosophy and culture. But this is a significant doubt, and not likely to go away when writings insisting on the sameness of Shiva and Vishnu keep popping up.

regards,

brahma jijnasa
29 April 2013, 01:27 AM
Namaste philosoraptor


Your explanation in many ways seems not entirely consistent to me with what recent Gaudiya Vaishnavas in the Saraswata line have stated on this subject. It seems that you are interpreting their views in such a way as to make them more compatible with the views of other Vaishnavas.

Today Gaudiya Vaishnavas have more than one group. So it is possible that more than one understanding about certain issues appeared. However as for me only one Gaudiya Vaishnava view is correct. That is the Gaudiya Vaishnava philosophy that has been established back then in the 16th century by Sri Caitanya and His prominent disciples such as Rupa, Sanatana and Jiva Gosvamis.


"Shiva is not a second Godhead" and "there is no difference between Shiva and Vishnu"
Such statements are not made about other shaktyavesha-avatAras, and so they naturally seem to imply more sameness and identity between Shiva and Vishnu

Last time when we discussed about it we were unable to communicate, so I'm not sure whether we should proceed now. I thought I managed to explain those statements, but then you said that it sounds to you like mayavada. So what can I do?
Perhaps first you have to understand the basics of acintya bheda abheda philosophy and then, I guess you would not have a problem with this.

Just one small remark. In the above quotation "more sameness and identity" Gaudiyas would admit more sameness, but not identity!
Guna avatara Lord Shiva has more sameness with Lord Vishnu than other jivas, but he is not identical with Him. The term "more sameness" actually means "more sameness in qualities" and nothing more than that. Thus guna avatara Lord Shiva has more sameness with Lord Vishnu because Lord Vishnu gave him some extra qualities that ordinary jivas do not have.
Only Lord Krishna is 100% Lord with 100% of qualities of the Lord. Lord Vishnu lacks some of those qualities, so He is not 100% of the Lord but is less than 100%. Remember He is only a part (aṃśa) of Lord Krishna. Further on guna avatara Lord Shiva is even less than Lord Vishnu in qualities because he lacks some of Lord Vishnu's qualities. Further on ordinary jivas are even less than Lord Shiva in qualities because they lacks some of his qualities. Thus it is said that guna avatara Lord Shiva is in between the position of Lord Vishnu and jivas. Lord Shiva is a jiva temporarily at the position of guna avatara Lord Shiva. As soon as this jiva step off of that position he returns to the ordinary jivas.
So what is this "more sameness" than? It is just more sameness in qualities, or more closer to the percentage of the Lord's qualities.

Now, this is Gaudiya Vaishnava philosophy. If pramana is what is bothering you, all I can say is that Rupa Gosvami came to the conclusion that guna avatara Lord Shiva is in between the position of Lord Vishnu and ordinary jivas. He came to this conclusion on the basis of some scriptures, some verses, but I haven't seen them.

Regarding statements such as "Shiva is not a second Godhead" and "there is no difference between Shiva and Vishnu" they are practically copied from the Puranas as I have demonstrated. If properly understood, there is nothing wrong with them.
I would say that "Shiva is not a second Godhead" is derived from the statements of the scriptures such as "Lord Vishnu appears in this world as Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva" or such as "Lord Vishnu creates, maintains and destroys the world". In these statements it seems it is said that Lord Vishnu appears in the form of guna avatara Lord Shiva and Brahma, He appears as them. From this "Shiva is not a second Godhead" is derived. This is not mayavada if properly understood. This doesn't mean guna avataras Shiva and Brahma are identical to Vishnu. Gaudiyas clearly say so and quote a verse from the Padma Purāṇa:


yas tu nārāyaṇaḿ devaḿ brahma-rudrādi-daivataiḥ
samatvenaiva vīkṣeta sa pāṣaṇḍī bhaved dhruvam

"Whoever thinks Lord Viṣṇu and the demigods (Brahma and Shiva) are on the same level is to be immediately considered a rogue as far as spiritual understanding is concerned."

regards

caitanya
30 April 2013, 06:27 AM
It is obvious that Lord Krishna is never adulterated or stupefied by deluding energy because he is described as immutable in the scriptures. He is also described as infallible (acyuta), He do not fall from his position.
Lord Krishna uses his energy to bring a particular jiva to the position of guna avatara Lord Shiva. This process is explained as a transformation of energy of the Lord. Lord Krishna uses his energy to empower a particular jiva so that this jiva may serve as a demigod Shiva and destroy the world.
That's it.
There is no mystery about it. I do not understand why people have problems with this concept.

regards
Namaskar

Thanks Brahma Jijnasa ji . I understand your concept of Lord Shiva . But problem is that the purport does not speak on similar lines . Anyways , thanks for informing me about GV views on the purport .

Ciatanya