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atanu
12 March 2007, 11:58 AM
Sanatana dharma preceptors, be it Vishnu or Shiva or Durga, all teach us to remain largely without sankalpa and do one's alloted karma without craving for the fruits.

Followers of this teaching when confronted with requirements of so-called pro-active action, benchmarking, profit maximization etc. --- all ego based concepts of the present business world, become dazed.

What do Gurus teach? How to remain steady in the face of such conflicting requirements?

Om Namah Shivayya

yajvan
12 March 2007, 03:16 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Sanatana dharma preceptors, be it Vishnu or Shiva or Durga, all teach us to remain largely without sankalpa and do one's alloted karma without craving for the fruits.
Om Namah Shivayya

Namaste Atanu,

If you are suggesting sankalpha is desires, then to remain w/o them is a mamoth task. It puts the cart before the horse.
My thoughts and humble POV on this have been captured in this post(s):
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=8144&postcount=1
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=7716&postcount=13

I am of the firm belief there are desires for advancement to one's spiritual goal, and there are desires for worldly possessions. One is higher and one is lower.... yet both are desires. This desireless state we read about is that of Moksha, where personal desires are no more, and Universal direction becomes one's bidding.

Pretending to not have desires brings strain... in the final analysis all desires are for 'more then the most' to feel full, [bhuma] to reach for the infinite. One brings strain and hinders ones progress when trying to evaluate which desire is worthly of merit and which is self-aggrandizement.

In closing I am not inferring your logic or knowledge is obtuse. Only as humans we are 'wired' accordingly for these impluses of desires. It it how one directs them that is worthy of discussion. It is how the mind ( fed by the senses), is managed. How does the eyes stop seeing, the nose stop smelling, the tongue stop tasting? Only when there is something more compelling then the objects of the sense ( the world and its objects) that mind is emursed in to satify this impulses for infinity - and that is the Silence, the SELF. Then ( they say) the mind is no more.



pranams,

atanu
13 March 2007, 05:19 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~
Namaste Atanu,

If you are suggesting sankalpha is desires, then to remain w/o them is a mamoth task. It puts the cart before the horse.
My thoughts and humble POV on this have been captured in this post(s):
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=8144&postcount=1
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=7716&postcount=13

I am of the firm belief there are desires for advancement to one's spiritual goal, and there are desires for worldly possessions. One is higher and one is lower.... yet both are desires. This desireless state we read about is that of Moksha, where personal desires are no more, and Universal direction becomes one's bidding.

Pretending to not have desires brings strain... in the final analysis all desires are for 'more then the most' to feel full, [bhuma] to reach for the infinite. One brings strain and hinders ones progress when trying to evaluate which desire is worthly of merit and which is self-aggrandizement.

In closing I am not inferring your logic or knowledge is obtuse. Only as humans we are 'wired' accordingly for these impluses of desires. It it how one directs them that is worthy of discussion. It is how the mind ( fed by the senses), is managed. How does the eyes stop seeing, the nose stop smelling, the tongue stop tasting? Only when there is something more compelling then the objects of the sense ( the world and its objects) that mind is emursed in to satify this impulses for infinity - and that is the Silence, the SELF. Then ( they say) the mind is no more.

pranams,

Pranam Yajvan Ji,

Thank you for your thoughts.

I am more interested in discussing the conflicts that arise from Hindu religious values of self effacement, pacific mind, and external control interacting with almost opposite business world values.

For example, it seems that the a christian may better conform to personal profit/survival of the fittest dictum of business.

Om Namah Shivayya

sm78
13 March 2007, 06:16 AM
Sanatana dharma preceptors, be it Vishnu or Shiva or Durga, all teach us to remain largely without sankalpa and do one's alloted karma without craving for the fruits.

Followers of this teaching when confronted with requirements of so-called pro-active action, benchmarking, profit maximization etc. --- all ego based concepts of the present business world, become dazed.

What do Gurus teach? How to remain steady in the face of such conflicting requirements?

Om Namah Shivayya

Thanks Atanu for bringing this very relevant and pressing problem for some of us to the discussion forum.

For me job is just the way to earn the living, it helps to sustain my life ~ beyond which it has no further value. Increasingly we are driven to make jobs and carrier the most important part of our life...we are even asked to make some business paradigms as our philosophies of life.

I am also increasingly finding it very hard to cope with ~ the answer I think lies in our choice...maybe if my spiritual goal takes a more serious direction than present I have to give up a corporate carrier and take up more humble means to earn. It is not so much of desire / non-desire thing, but more of working under principles and philosophies contrary to dharma.

yajvan
13 March 2007, 12:35 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Pranam Yajvan Ji,
I am more interested in discussing the conflicts that arise from Hindu religious values of self effacement, pacific mind, and external control interacting with almost opposite business world values.

For example, it seems that the a christian may better conform to personal profit/survival of the fittest dictum of business. Om Namah Shivayya

Namaste Atanu,

I cannot help but think of this advice when one deals with their welfare.

Satyanna pramaditavyam
Dharmanna pramaditavyam
Kusalanna pramaditavyam
Never swerve away from Truth
never swerve away from duty
never neglect your welfare; swerve
not from any act for the protection of yourself
Taittiriya Uanishad 1.11.1

satay
14 March 2007, 12:05 AM
I am more interested in discussing the conflicts that arise from Hindu religious values of self effacement, pacific mind, and external control interacting with almost opposite business world values.

For example, it seems that the a christian may better conform to personal profit/survival of the fittest dictum of business.

Om Namah Shivayya

namaste Atanu,

This goes back to a post/thread I had started about a year ago now on HDF. I asked what does Hinduism has to offer today's man.

You say that business world values are almost opposite. I would like to say that business values are opposite of what hinduism teaches.

I would also like to hear what the sages say about this. I am constant battle with myself when it comes to business principles of today and what dharma teaches.

hindweb
14 March 2007, 12:41 AM
Sanatana dharma also teaches us about the 4 various ashramas in a persons life. When you are in Grihastashrama dharma it is your duty to accumulate wealth for the well being of your dependants!

atanu
14 March 2007, 01:56 AM
namaste Atanu,

This goes back to a post/thread I had started about a year ago now on HDF. I asked what does Hinduism has to offer today's man.

You say that business world values are almost opposite. I would like to say that business values are opposite of what hinduism teaches.

I would also like to hear what the sages say about this. I am constant battle with myself when it comes to business principles of today and what dharma teaches.


Namaste Satay Ji,

Yes. This battle is a constant thing in dvaita. Devas win by holding on to OM, in their breath, thats what Upanishad says.

Yajvan Ji has cited the most valuable verse.

Never swerve away from Truth
never swerve away from duty
never neglect your welfare; swerve
not from any act for the protection of yourself

Taittiriya Uanishad 1.11.1



The last two lines business leaders also teach.

What is this 'yourself'? What is 'myself'? Since we are asked to never swerve from the truth, so we must know the truth of 'yourself' and 'myself' also.

A Hindu has a problem till the end, sometimes I feel.

Om

atanu
14 March 2007, 02:04 AM
Thanks Atanu for bringing this very relevant and pressing problem for some of us to the discussion forum.

For me job is just the way to earn the living, it helps to sustain my life ~ beyond which it has no further value. Increasingly we are driven to make jobs and carrier the most important part of our life...we are even asked to make some business paradigms as our philosophies of life.

I am also increasingly finding it very hard to cope with ~ the answer I think lies in our choice...maybe if my spiritual goal takes a more serious direction than present I have to give up a corporate carrier and take up more humble means to earn. It is not so much of desire / non-desire thing, but more of working under principles and philosophies contrary to dharma.


Namaskar Singhi Mashai,

I have read almost all books available on my Guru. Everywhere his teachings are equivalent of the picture of Shiva -- with a raised hand offering full protection. But, in a very small corner, in a book, I read him saying that the devotee will never be fully at peace till eventually He surrenders fully, leaving everything aside as not-important.

You reflect the above well enough.

I feel that so-called inside and outside have to harmonize. Please let us have more thoughts -- from Yajvan Ji, from Zn, and from all.

Om.

sm78
14 March 2007, 04:12 AM
Sanatana dharma also teaches us about the 4 various ashramas in a persons life. When you are in Grihastashrama dharma it is your duty to accumulate wealth for the well being of your dependants!

That is the reason to work, yet it doesn't solve the problem at work.

Gita's karma yog (work without desire) will make the ordinary man suffer in work. One of my friends asked me if work without desire is at all possible.

On a practical level when you are not yet self-realized, essence of karma yog is said to be as follows:-

"when you work have all concentration on the task at hand, as we work or brain is engaged and feels a lot of pressure. As soon as the work is done we should see that all pressure from the brain is gone ~ just like unwinding of a clock key. At once we are back in peace of our true existence. experince this in all work you do."

I don't know if the above is possible for mumkshu's like us or it is only for the isha koti jivan muktas (jivan muktas with unsettled karma).

It is however true, that occationally (very very occationally) I found it happening in me, where after the work was over I was immediately happy and at peace. Trying to make it happen consistently will be a type of raj-yog practice.

Abhishek
14 March 2007, 04:19 AM
How to remain steady in the face of such conflicting requirements?
Om Namah Shivayya

Namaste Atanuji,
I have been myself seeking to know what desire is good and what desire is bad. “What action is right?” If I do choose spirituality against worldly desire, why should I do so? I have pondered about this for sometime. I personally can't think of a quoting anything from any spiritual text to substantiate my opinion. But here is what I think:


“Sin is action that springs from desire and fear”
“Action that springs from discrimination is Virtue”


Where Sin is an act that hinders one's spiritual progress. Virtue is the opposite of sin, and enhances one's spiritual progress. No matter what action it is, it should be evaluated this way. However, these two simple sounding postulates can lead to some extremely strange conclusions.


If I take this to an extreme, even prayer is sin if it arises from desire and fear. And even worldliest of actions is virtue if it arises from discrimination. One reads spiritual books, looks at spiritual leaders, and that forms an image in our mind of right and wrong, a visual image, a spiritual image. Then one wants to behave like that and be like that. One thinks of this for quite some time. And naturally he become attached. He MUST to be like that. In his practice sometimes he uses extreme will power. He kills his desires. And every time he fails to comply he curses himself internally. He is upset with himself.


This is a classic case. Of attachment to religiousness. Rajasic worship. I believe this is also detrimental for one's spiritual life. Just as much as an worldly sin would be. If your discrimination tells you to maximize profits, it is not sin, it is virtue. If you are driven by greed to maximize profits, it is sin.

atanu
14 March 2007, 12:23 PM
Namaste Atanuji,
I have been myself seeking to know what desire is good and what desire is bad. “What action is right?” If I do choose spirituality against worldly desire, why should I do so? I have pondered about this for sometime. I personally can't think of a quoting anything from any spiritual text to substantiate my opinion. But here is what I think:


“Sin is action that springs from desire and fear”
“Action that springs from discrimination is Virtue”


Where Sin is an act that hinders one's spiritual progress. Virtue is the opposite of sin, and enhances one's spiritual progress. No matter what action it is, it should be evaluated this way. However, these two simple sounding postulates can lead to some extremely strange conclusions.


If I take this to an extreme, even prayer is sin if it arises from desire and fear. And even worldliest of actions is virtue if it arises from discrimination. One reads spiritual books, looks at spiritual leaders, and that forms an image in our mind of right and wrong, a visual image, a spiritual image. Then one wants to behave like that and be like that. One thinks of this for quite some time. And naturally he become attached. He MUST to be like that. In his practice sometimes he uses extreme will power. He kills his desires. And every time he fails to comply he curses himself internally. He is upset with himself.


This is a classic case. Of attachment to religiousness. Rajasic worship. I believe this is also detrimental for one's spiritual life. Just as much as an worldly sin would be. If your discrimination tells you to maximize profits, it is not sin, it is virtue. If you are driven by greed to maximize profits, it is sin.


Namaste Abhishek Ji,

Regarding the first part, I do not think I have any doubt. Worldly desires are never satiated and leave one more dissatisfied. But while we have to fend for sustenance what we do?

I use a citation that more or less summarises the highest Hindu teaching:

The present is the golden gate.
Here-now is the golden gate.
..And you can be in the present only if you are not ambitious - no
accomplishment, no desire to achieve power, money, prestige, even
enlightenment, because all ambition leads you into the future.

Osho


Neither Gita nor any other Sanatana Dharma Guru will contradict this. What does Guru Osho himself say about survival in business world?

Om

YogSadhak
14 March 2007, 02:17 PM
Namaste !,

Its very interesting to read everyones topics and messages on this website......

Some time back, while seeking answer to similiar questions I came across a term "Put Your Spirituality to Work" and the website called Global Dharma.. (www.globaldharma.org (http://www.globaldharma.org))

To start with...http://www.globaldharma.org/Files%20-%20Adobe%20Acrobat/SBW/SBL%203.05%20Defining%20Business%20Success.pdf

I am not associated or part of any such organisation, just sharing what I have read and absorbed into my knowledge system...

Hari OM !

Znanna
14 March 2007, 07:49 PM
Namaste,

I work because I have chosen to make my own way, thus I must make my own means to support my ways. I feel that to rely on another for support, then I must defer ... and I absolutely follow Godz and no human edict. To an extent, I think that because I have entered in good faith with my devotion to Godz, that a path is shown me which brings me everything which can be dreamed.

I am very blessed, indeed; yet I know it is my service, my work which are the expression of this blessing. I manage investments for my clients - by making them wealthy, I have earned a respectable living. I am not wealthy by any monetary measure, but others consider me so (who could have my attitude and not be rich, hehe). I could have made money, I suppose, selling my "gifts" but to me, gifts are free, and I have always offered my service freely, to all. I make money by making money - I like the simplicity of that.

*neglect none*

To hold back any part, and not give mySelves freely into "works", well, I see that as crashing the whole schema. As I told a new client today - she doesn't have as much money as others, but it is her life savings, and I respect that as much as I respect my other clients' life savings. It's important to me, as it is important to her. (I might note that this new client is a very small account and she has *lots* of shall we say "bad karma" ... yet she was sent to me, and I will do my utmost to create wealth for her. It's my job. Sometimes profitability needs to be sacrificed for principle, and I have a position where I have the freedom to make these judgements, in both directions, as I also have fired very wealthy clients who were a PITA.)

An interesting point was made earlier (sometime I'll figure out how to multiquote without type fonts going all over the place) about business and Christianity. This resonates with me, as it seems to me that Christianity (or perhaps more precisely "Churchianity" as there *are* some Christians who actually are Christians, whom I would not insult!) and corporations are converging in promoting some sort mass produced, standardized world view/structure so as to promote the structure rather than the works as the, um, daily experience.

I have fun with this ... I have marketed myself (so to speak) as the redheaded, black leather-wearing stockbroker who always asks provocative questions. I am *so* outside what folks expect that it gives me great freedom to "work the system" ... it is too much trouble to try to classify me, and I run a good business, so folks generally just leave me be. In other words, I am extreme to the point of nonclassification and that works really well for me.

Other ways I poke at the corporate infrastructure include not taking no for an answer, being exceptionally well-informed as a basis for questioning authority, and constantly changing up my self-presentation ... keep them guessing and they can't pattern you into their system.

Finally, I'd note that recently I transferred from one of the largest banks in the world to a smaller US brokerage firm. The elimination of about 40 layers of bureaucracy has made my work experience much better ... it is nice to call Joe in margin rather than deal with a call center and forms. Very big companies (my last employer was more than 60,000 worldwide) are insanely inefficient and impersonal. A major PITA.

"Too much pressure and not enough support" ... this brings a structure (or corporation) crashing down.



ZN
/working stiff

yajvan
14 March 2007, 08:47 PM
Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

I work because I have chosen to make my own way, thus I must make my own means to support my ways. A major PITA.

"Too much pressure and not enough support" ... this brings a structure (or corporation) crashing down.
ZN

Namaste ZN,
great perspective and thank you for the clear-sited post.

I have a simular mind set, yet just recently ( last few years) I have taken to the following perscription:

Do not get the mind excessively involved in your employment if you desire peace. - Swami Brahmananda Saraswati

So, for me, this has been a great saying that I have tried to practice, but with little success... what then? Plan B! Exit corporate america. This is on my docket for this year. My intent and compelling desire to move my spiritual progress forward has won. I have no ill feelings of this work world but know I am a better person outside of it and can ( I think ) serve society w/o out the stress and stain of the competitive world.

Now, the question is, is it the corp world or me that is the challenge? My teacher advises the following: the world is as you are. If I am full, happy w/o strife, then no matter what I do, feed chickens or do market analysis, I take this frame of mind with me. Just like wearing color-tinted glasses. I view the world in that color. Yet I find it challening being in a world that the environment is not part of the richness I find valuable and rewarding e.g. the divine, siddha, Bhuma, etc. So, this wonderful world has afforded me the opportunity to exit stage right! For this I am blessed and humbled I have this opportnity, perhpaps for a short time, or maybe for a while.

Based on the ashrama ( life period) I have entered as viewed by the Sun, this is a good time. Let alone all the dasa and varga periods suggested by my chart, point the way. One must make efforts for Moksha.... the time for more attention on this is at hand (for me). Of this there is no doubt.

I can recall my first job ( at 15 years of age) saying, boy, I do not think I want to do this the rest of my life! The time is ripe for doing things that are much more important.

I am in hopes and as you have shared, you have cracked the code, and live by your rules. For this, all the stars in the heavens rejoice.

Jai Guru Deva,

pranams

satay
15 March 2007, 12:45 AM
hmm...
namaste,
I must offer a different prespective. I 'love' my job. Truly, I love it! I love working hard and doing what I am doing in my role. My job gives me satisfaction. It defines who I am. It is a vital part of me. I have nothing against corporate america or business in general. As a worker, I don't have any problem but as a hindu I do have a problem with the corporate world. That's where I am in constant battle.

Osho puts it nicely, 'all religions have made a man a schizophrenic'. Until I understand dharma correctly, I shall remain schizophrenic in the corporate world and try to cope with the split personality: a corporate worker and a hindu.

atanu
15 March 2007, 01:17 AM
hmm...
namaste,
------
Osho puts it nicely, 'all religions have made a man a schizophrenic'. Until I understand dharma correctly, I shall remain schizophrenic in the corporate world and try to cope with the split personality: a corporate worker and a hindu.

This is going nicely.

Whatever brave face we may put up, it still remains true that we have some problem in thw world -- so we embrace religion????????????????? And create another layer of artificiality --- like I am a Hindu????????????????????? Or more violenly "I am a Muslim" or in a very businesslike manner with a upraised nose "I am a Christian".

But this is besides the point, perhaps.

Om

atanu
15 March 2007, 01:29 AM
Namaste !,

Its very interesting to read everyones topics and messages on this website......

Some time back, while seeking answer to similiar questions I came across a term "Put Your Spirituality to Work" and the website called Global Dharma.. (www.globaldharma.org (http://www.globaldharma.org))

To start with...http://www.globaldharma.org/Files%20-%20Adobe%20Acrobat/SBW/SBL%203.05%20Defining%20Business%20Success.pdf

I am not associated or part of any such organisation, just sharing what I have read and absorbed into my knowledge system...

Hari OM !

Thanks YogSadhak,

Will go through the links at leisure.

Om

Abhishek
15 March 2007, 08:33 AM
Neither Gita nor any other Sanatana Dharma Guru will contradict this. What does Guru Osho himself say about survival in business world?
Om

Namsate Atanu Ji,

When one says that there is conflict between Spiritual and Worldly ways what does he mean? What exactly is going through his mind? For a moment I will examine this dilemma more carefully. I also experience a sense of confusion and guilt when faced by this. I am not completely free of worldly desires. But off late I feel I am learning some new things. The question I have asked myself is, “Why am I in this dilemma in the first place”. Had I been a completely worldly person involved, to the core, in satisfying my desires, this dilemma would not have crossed my path. I would have gone through my life “maximizing profits”, “reducing expenses” and would not have ever thought if it was harmful in anyway to me. At the same time, being the superficial and materialistic guy I would have been, I would have fits of anger, self disgust, fear and desire. I would have always thought more money will make me happy, a new car would make me happy. And I would have believed in it one hundred percent. But this particular dilemma, and the consequent unwholesomeness of efforts toward worldly life would not have been there. Of this dilemma, I would be free. So is it the spiritual ideas I have come across, that evoke in me a moral confusion about my duty? The set of beliefs we have imbibed from our texts and our gurus are perhaps the once that evoke this confusion? The framework of spiritual ideals we have developed over time, is it faulty? I have asked myself this question several times. And I have come to believe that it is in fact true.


Just like the worldly man beliefs would result in “anger, self disgust, fear and desire” my beliefs result in dilemma, unwholesomeness of action, doubt and confusion. In reality both of us are just the same. None is better that the other. When I wrote:.

“Sin is action that springs from desire and fear”
“Action that springs from discrimination is Virtue”


I meant exactly that. I was trying to say that even in prayer there can attachment. And this dilemma is one of the manifestations of that attachment. There is an attitude that attachment to prayer, God or one's spiritual framework is magically pardonable. I don't believe in that. Nature knows no such exceptions. When one encounters “profit maximization” etc, why does one cringe from them? Is one afraid of spiritual pitfall? Is it a question of forsaking one's spiritual progress at the cost of material world? I am afraid it is. That is attachment to one's spiritual framework. But even if it is, how does one choose? When one has true non-attachment, it is absolutely simple decision to make. And every one knows what it will be. The fact that this question has become a dilemma for me itself speaks of how little non-attachment has.


What is the right thing to do, maximize profits or run to the Himalayas? The answer of what is Dharma, will depend on what one's discrimination says and hence will differ for different people. Both Buddha and Gandhi made a choice. So did the great scientists scholars. They all chose differently. But all I can say is that in this light, one should make a decision free from prejudice. Free from the idea that choosing religion over the world is always an act of virtue.


Please share your thoughts on this.

yajvan
15 March 2007, 08:59 AM
Hari Om
~~~~~


I must offer a different prespective. I 'love' my job. Truly, I love it! I love working hard and doing what I am doing in my role. My job gives me satisfaction. It defines who I am. It is a vital part of me. I have nothing against corporate america or business in general. As a worker, I don't have any problem but as a hindu I do have a problem with the corporate world. That's where I am in constant battle.


Namaste Satay,
You are fortunate that the work you do brings you happiness, this is a gift. The expriences we have tend to track the various times of our lives i.e. the 'season' to what we do, our areas of focus and how the universe reponds to us.
We know this as asrama , or stage(s) of life. What you described in your post aligns nicely to your age and dasa period:
Brahmacharya---the student stage
Garhasthya---the married householder stage
Banaprastha ( some say vanaprastha) -the stage of retirement and contemplation
Sannyas---the stage of religious mendicancy
... these last two stages begin the inward stroke of life that perhaps many on HDF ( that would be me) are being offered.

One's career from a Jyotish perspective is influenced by the 10th house, the Aruda of the 10th ( its ~ image roughly), the Sun ( as indicator of the 1st house) and Sani ( Saturn) the karaka of work.

As one moves from one asrama to another, you will see things change as other dasa periods come into play. Hence, people have differernt experiences along the way. One dasa period that applies to all on this earth is the Naiskargika or the natural dasa system shown below.

Moon Period: 0- 1 years or age, Duration: 1 year
Mars Period: 1- 3 years of age, Duration: 2 years
Mercury Period: 3- 12 years or age, Duration: 9 years
Venus Period: 12- 32 years of age, Duration: 20 years
Jupiter Period: 32- 50 years of age, Duration: 18 years
Sun Period: 50- 70 years of age, Duration: 20 years
Saturn Period: 70-120 years of age, Duration: 50 years


Each period brings the influence of that graha... moon and relationship with Mother, nourshment, etc.; Mercury , the intellect, communcatioin, education; Jupiter, expansion; Sun, the Atma, Self, etc; Saturn , tapas, etc, etc.

Pending the conversations of the people on HDF, their views will be commenserate with the asrama and naiskargika periods That are active. This is what gives us all an opinion on life as our experiences change over time, as does our insights, knowledge And our goals/objectives as well as our loves.

pranams,

Ganeshprasad
15 March 2007, 11:05 AM
Pranam

It is a big balancing act between the dog eat dog world and following Dharma

The need to ride the wave or sink and the attack of consciousness that wants to chuck everything in preference to seeking the truth. There is no hiding place.

The duty calls, the pangs of hunger, shelter, the needs of money to sustain the family, I fool myself I need to work, finally last year made the decision to semi retire 20years too late.

I personally never liked working, although reasonably successful through hard work.

Us Hindus are known for the honesty and hard work which is slowly being recognized and rewarded in the western world. I must say in the early days we had a lot to overcome in the form of cultural difference and some out right prejudices.

If you don’t drink don’t smoke don’t eat meat don’t go out clubbing its just not easy to fit in, unless ones feet are firmly grounded in Dharma it is easy to join the bandwagon.

Corporate world mantra is ‘paiso maro paramishvar,’

Dharma says;

"Satya vada"; "Dharmam chara"

Jai Shree Krishna

atanu
16 March 2007, 12:05 PM
Namsate Atanu Ji,

When one says that there is conflict between Spiritual and Worldly ways what does he mean? -----. But off late I feel I am learning some new things. The question I have asked myself is, “Why am I in this dilemma in the first place”. Had I been a completely worldly person involved, to the core, in satisfying my desires, this dilemma would not have crossed my path. I would have gone through my life “maximizing profits”, “reducing expenses” and would not have ever thought if it was harmful in anyway to me. At the same time, being the superficial and materialistic guy I would have been, I would have fits of anger, self disgust, fear and desire. I would have always thought more money will make me happy, a new car would make me happy. And I would have believed in it one hundred percent. But this particular dilemma, and the consequent unwholesomeness of efforts toward worldly life would not have been there. Of this dilemma, I would be free. So is it the spiritual ideas I have come across, that evoke in me a moral confusion about my duty? The set of beliefs we have imbibed from our texts and our gurus are perhaps the once that evoke this confusion? The framework of spiritual ideals we have developed over time, is it faulty? I have asked myself this question several times. And I have come to believe that it is in fact true.


Namaste Abhishek,

I empathize with you on many points. I also felt, until very recent past that the worshippers are hypocrites – crying before Lord for wealth, power, or fame. Yet, this is natural.

Most of us, in this forum at least, have chosen sarvamanagalam over ‘i-me-mine mangalam’, with correct discrimination. ‘i-me-mine managalam’ drains one. Sarvamangalam recharges one. Yet while on sarvamangalam path, the small ego comes into conflict with other egos and feels bruised. This is due to incomplete surrender and nothing else.





Just like the worldly man beliefs would result in “anger, self disgust, fear and desire” my beliefs result in dilemma, unwholesomeness of action, doubt and confusion. In reality both of us are just the same. None is better that the other. When I wrote:.

“Sin is action that springs from desire and fear”
“Action that springs from discrimination is Virtue”


I meant exactly that. I was trying to say that even in prayer there can attachment. And this dilemma is one of the manifestations of that attachment. There is an attitude that attachment to prayer, God or one's spiritual framework is magically pardonable. I don't believe in that. Nature knows no such exceptions. When one encounters “profit maximization” etc, why does one cringe from them? Is one afraid of spiritual pitfall? Is it a question of forsaking one's spiritual progress at the cost of material world? I am afraid it is. That is attachment to one's spiritual framework. But even if it is, how does one choose? When one has true non-attachment, it is absolutely simple decision to make. And every one knows what it will be. The fact that this question has become a dilemma for me itself speaks of how little non-attachment has.




God or spiritual framework is actually not another or is not separate from us. It is not only truly magically pardonable but it is transformational as well. The change in one’s own consciousness results in magic and the transformation. The Gayatri Mantra is verily a tool for that. The dilemma we are speaking about is well known and frankly I know why it is and how it can go. But one needs confirmation from other good souls also – the so called sat-sang. Ego will create doubts but through sat-sang the ego has to be gently chided. This thread came up for that purpose: to support and to receive support; to strengthen faith.





What is the right thing to do, maximize profits or run to the Himalayas? The answer of what is Dharma, will depend on what one's discrimination says and hence will differ for different people. Both Buddha and Gandhi made a choice. So did the great scientists scholars. They all chose differently. But all I can say is that in this light, one should make a decision free from prejudice. Free from the idea that choosing religion over the world is always an act of virtue.


Actually, whether one is meditating on Himalayas or whether one is minting money, the basic flaw is the twin thoughts: “I am so and so” and “I have such and such work”. It was mother who imparted the knowledge to Indra, Agni, and Vayu that Brahman is the doer and winner everywhere. Indra—the mind, Agni- the will, and Vayu—the life must know it (Keno Upanishad). Mind pulls one down and the mind will lift one, because it is Indra and it is a very special son of Mother.




Please share your thoughts on this.


I hope what has been said will be fruitful.

Regards

Om Namah Shivayya

Abhishek
20 March 2007, 11:47 PM
Namaste Atanu Ji,

I am extremely sorry for the delay in replying to your posts. However, here are my views on our involving discussion.


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I empathize with you on many points. I also felt, until very recent past that the worshippers are hypocrites – crying before Lord for wealth, power, or fame. Yet, this is natural.




They are not hypocrites if they only carve for worldly desires. They are hypocrites only if they think that they are making spiritual progress when in fact they are not. More so if they are making other believe that this is the right path!


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The dilemma we are speaking about is well known and frankly I know why it is and how it can go.



Please elaborate on this. What is then at the root of this dilemma?

atanu
21 March 2007, 12:40 AM
Namaste Atanu Ji,

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Please elaborate on this. What is then at the root of this dilemma?

The root of the dillemma (for me) is the small ego which has assumed doership. It creates havoc when it is asked to relinquish control. It creates scenes in the mind showing how the outside forces will crush me, if the ego is not in place.


For me, in particular, the question is how best one overcomes this conflict? What do Gurus teach?

Om