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dogra
01 May 2013, 07:21 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/house-of-commons-22266175

Hindu alliance wanted time for talking for a change, nevertheless Hindu alliance and anti caste alliance are both against caste discrimination.
Word caste come from casta-Portugese word, so caste system is not in Vedas.
Often Purusha Sukta talks as an allegory for all parts of body to work together, non higher nor lower.
B.G. 5.18 Lord Krishna says to look at different people with equal eye.
Moksha-end game for hindu faith, is to merge with God only if you lead a noble life ie accept fellow human beings.

Cultural social evil of caste needs defeating, and law will not change hearts and minds of those number that discriminate. Such individuals do not recognise humane verses in Sanantan Dharma.

Reject label of 'dalit' and 'untouchable' we are all spritually equal. Every function has dignity of labour, not birth based, but on qualities and education.

ShivaFan
01 May 2013, 09:52 AM
Namaste

I am in a technical forum today, and the rest of the week. In fact, I am at a hotel and have to engage and speak in a session in 30 mins, so there is no time to give a response from the perspective of what I have been taught by Hindus of authority and in perspective of a Hindu of no caste regarding jati.

This has been a subject of previous posts which generated jalpa, sad hearts, even name calling, closure of posts. This could be the case here. So before I can think about a response it may take this route, cut and paste wall papering of web content and scripture, but as for full disclosure if another proclaims some caste their own I have never taken a position that they must renounce their adherence, in the light no other human is going to tell me that I am a dalit, that me, my family or children will only be enslaved to degrading economic servitude.

You do not need to live wealthy to be wealthy. Yes, we should not be attached to materialism. But as a "community" in this world of today full of abominations we need to be united and not divided, therefore I wish every Hindu and their families wealth, prosperity and safe homes because it is power, as a minority facing those, some of which literally want to enslave or kill all of us, we must be powerful, we must be advisors to power, we will be.

Om Namah Sivaya

shiv.somashekhar
01 May 2013, 01:00 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/house-of-commons-22266175

Hindu alliance wanted time for talking for a change, nevertheless Hindu alliance and anti caste alliance are both against caste discrimination.
Word caste come from casta-Portugese word, so caste system is not in Vedas.
Often Purusha Sukta talks as an allegory for all parts of body to work together, non higher nor lower.
B.G. 5.18 Lord Krishna says to look at different people with equal eye.
Moksha-end game for hindu faith, is to merge with God only if you lead a noble life ie accept fellow human beings.

Cultural social evil of caste needs defeating, and law will not change hearts and minds of those number that discriminate. Such individuals do not recognise humane verses in Sanantan Dharma.

Reject label of 'dalit' and 'untouchable' we are all spritually equal. Every function has dignity of labour, not birth based, but on qualities and education.

People who are familiar with Hindu and the Indian way of life ought to already know that caste is a deeply ingrained culture that has been around for thousands of years now and is not going away anytime soon.

It is not a religious thing and therefore, what the Veda or Krishna or Santana Dharma would say on this subject are completely irrelevant. Again, one who is familiar with local culture ought to know this already.

philosoraptor
01 May 2013, 03:00 PM
People who are familiar with Hindu and the Indian way of life ought to already know that caste is a deeply ingrained culture that has been around for thousands of years now and is not going away anytime soon.

It is not a religious thing and therefore, what the Veda or Krishna or Santana Dharma would say on this subject are completely irrelevant. Again, one who is familiar with local culture ought to know this already.

That's because "caste discrimination" is just another form of "class discrimination," which is ubiquitous in human society and is the logical result of diversity of beliefs, values, strengths, weaknesses, etc. The religious element is the tying of certain castes to heredity, which was an integral part of both Indian and Vedic culture. Trying to outlaw that in all spheres of life is basically an attack on Hinduism. Think about it. If a temple wants to hire a priest, but limits its selection to priests of brahmin ancestry (as any traditional Hindu temple would), then it is now guilty of "caste discrimination."

The irony of this is that, in the above situation, the temple staff would be "punished" by members of the ruling class, who themselves do not attain their positions by merit, but rather by lying to their constituents and/or stroking their fears and prejudices entirely based on emotional arguments. Want to build a new community hall for your temple? Too bad, because the temple was fined $20,000 of your hard-earned donation money for the caste-discrimination case against it last year. You know what I'm talking about - it was outlawed by Mr. XYZ politician who habitually cheats on his wife and lies to the world about it, and still gets re-elected year after year.

wundermonk
01 May 2013, 03:44 PM
Does this bill imply that discriminating against Brahmins when it comes to jobs and college seats is now disallowed?

In any case, there are a few options now left for Hindus.

(1)Equality bill is wrong.
(2)Equality bill is right and Hinduism is right because Hindu sruthis do NOT support birth-based caste discrimination. What Hinduism talks about is varna and that is NOT based on birth but on gunas which can be cultivated by a person in one's lifetime.
(3)Equality bill is right and Hinduism is wrong because Hindu sruthis DO support birth-based caste discrimination.

Have I left out any option?

I am asking for the Nth time on HDF - can anyone please define a "Brahmin" without using the word "Brahmin" or its derivatives in the definition?

philosoraptor
01 May 2013, 05:00 PM
Does anyone know of any traditional Hindu temples who routinely employ priests who are not of brahmin ancestry? As long as we are going to deny the obvious, let's look at the evidence. Because aside from ISKCON, Ramakrishna Math, and a few other new religious movements, I certainly am not aware of too many temples who hire non-brahmin priests.

shiv.somashekhar
01 May 2013, 05:33 PM
I am asking for the Nth time on HDF - can anyone please define a "Brahmin" without using the word "Brahmin" or its derivatives in the definition?

I believe this issue has been discussed over N times on this forum and you were part of at least some of them.

Unfortunately, asking the question again is unlikely to help much as the people who may respond to your question belong to the same old set and therefore the responses will be the same.

Eastern Mind
01 May 2013, 06:27 PM
Does anyone know of any traditional Hindu temples who routinely employ priests who are not of brahmin ancestry? As long as we are going to deny the obvious, let's look at the evidence. Because aside from ISKCON, Ramakrishna Math, and a few other new religious movements, I certainly am not aware of too many temples who hire non-brahmin priests.

Vannakkam:

Mauritius has tons of them, but it is a special case, and certainly not representative of Indian Hinduism, but as a result of their particular unique history.

The indentured labour classes were all mixed, perhaps even a few Brahmins. But they took Hinduism with them, and built very small koyils and temples on their allotted lands over in the corner of the sugar estate. There were no priests at all, so volunteers took over these positions, and that lasted for 150 - 200 years. Some Hindi, Telegu, Marathi, Tamil filtered down through the generations. Anybody could sign up to become a Hindu priest, and pujas were and still are often conducted in non-Sanskrit, like Tamil, or Hindi. After several generations, most didn't know the difference, and some still don't. On my trip, one local priest asked how his chances would be for working as a priest in Canada. I didn't have the heart to tell him, "Slim to none." A couple of temples have hired Indian Brahmin priests in the last few years, but it has also created conflict amongst the community, as many prefer to stick with their local priests, out of pure comfort. Some people do recognise that the Indian preists are better trained (by far) yet the local ones have a lot of bhakti too.

But like I said, it's probably unique to just the places where indentured labour spread Hinduism. Not sure about Fiji, Guyana, South Africa, etc.

Aum Namasivaya

philosoraptor
01 May 2013, 08:31 PM
Vannakkam:

Mauritius has tons of them, but it is a special case, and certainly not representative of Indian Hinduism, but as a result of their particular unique history.

The indentured labour classes were all mixed, perhaps even a few Brahmins. But they took Hinduism with them, and built very small koyils and temples on their allotted lands over in the corner of the sugar estate. There were no priests at all, so volunteers took over these positions, and that lasted for 150 - 200 years. Some Hindi, Telegu, Marathi, Tamil filtered down through the generations. Anybody could sign up to become a Hindu priest, and pujas were and still are often conducted in non-Sanskrit, like Tamil, or Hindi. After several generations, most didn't know the difference, and some still don't. On my trip, one local priest asked how his chances would be for working as a priest in Canada. I didn't have the heart to tell him, "Slim to none." A couple of temples have hired Indian Brahmin priests in the last few years, but it has also created conflict amongst the community, as many prefer to stick with their local priests, out of pure comfort. Some people do recognise that the Indian preists are better trained (by far) yet the local ones have a lot of bhakti too.

But like I said, it's probably unique to just the places where indentured labour spread Hinduism. Not sure about Fiji, Guyana, South Africa, etc.

Aum Namasivaya

I think you will find that the above is true of other developing countries with large Indian communities descended from indentured servants. I happen to know that Trinidad has a female pujari, for example.

I'm glad that these expatriate cultures have kept their religion alive, even in the absence of true brahmin priests. But this just underscores my point - the rule is that Hindu priests are of brahmin ancestry. In India, and also in major countries like America and Canada where immigration is attractive and employers have their pick, priests in traditional temples are invariably of brahmin ancestry. That's quite a coincidence for a culture in which varna was supposedly not related to birth. Any explanations for that forthcoming? Probably not. And yet we continue to hear that claim over and over again from the revisionists....

That these expatriate cultures in other places like Mauritius find ways to keep the priestly tradition alive is a testament to the fluidity of Hindu culture and the spirit of bhakti. These will flourish even when regulations cannot be satisfied. Then again, it's not unfair to point out that at least some of these communities (in my observation at least) have, how should we say, modified understandings of how things are supposed to be? This may be of no concern to people with a theology-neutral attitude towards Hinduism. It's a bit more concerning to those of us who are selective about where we wish to worship.

It's also been my observation that, in places like India, USA, etc, even non-brahmin people seem to prefer proper male, brahmin priests in their temples. Casteist? I suppose so....

Eastern Mind
01 May 2013, 08:56 PM
It's also been my observation that, in places like India, USA, etc, even non-brahmin people seem to prefer proper male, brahmin priests in their temples. Casteist? I suppose so....

Vannakkam: I'm not sure. It's partly just training too. The Brahmin priests are generally very well trained. I'd rather hire an electrician with some credentials than some guy working out of his garage because he likes playing with wires.

Just for your info, I served as the priest here for about 5 years before we could afford a Brahmin, just like someone in Mauritius may have done 200 years ago. Nobody seemed to mind. Even the Brahmins who weren't temple Brahmins didn't mind. In fact they appreciated it, or so they told me. But being poorly trained, I had to make up for that in bhakti, or at least fake it.

A few people have since told me they wished I could have continued.

Aum Namasivaya

philosoraptor
01 May 2013, 09:18 PM
Vannakkam: I'm not sure. It's partly just training too. The Brahmin priests are generally very well trained. I'd rather hire an electrician with some credentials than some guy working out of his garage because he likes playing with wires.

Just for your info, I served as the priest here for about 5 years before we could afford a Brahmin, just like someone in Mauritius may have done 200 years ago. Nobody seemed to mind. Even the Brahmins who weren't temple Brahmins didn't mind. In fact they appreciated it, or so they told me. But being poorly trained, I had to make up for that in bhakti, or at least fake it.

A few people have since told me they wished I could have continued.

Aum Namasivaya

In places like that, that would be possible. Even desirable perhaps, since it meets an unfulfilled need of the community. But it would not have been possible in India. That's all I'm saying.

Eastern Mind
01 May 2013, 09:22 PM
In places like that, that would be possible. Even desirable perhaps, since it meets an unfulfilled need of the community. But it would not have been possible in India. That's all I'm saying.

Vannakkam: I think it's possible. Rare, but possible. When I was at Rameswaram there was a white and western assistant priest working right alongside the Brahmins. Don't know if he's still there or not, but it was very clear he was a priest. I just doubt that anyone would bother to ask, or to try. It's not a very prestigious job any more, and certainly low paid.

Aum Namasivaya

philosoraptor
01 May 2013, 09:33 PM
Vannakkam: I think it's possible. Rare, but possible. When I was at Rameswaram there was a white and western assistant priest working right alongside the Brahmins. Don't know if he's still there or not, but it was very clear he was a priest. I just doubt that anyone would bother to ask, or to try. It's not a very prestigious job any more, and certainly low paid.

Aum Namasivaya

No it's not a prestigious job, except for non-brahmin castes who feel they need to prove something by "becoming" brahmins.

And this is still an exception. The vast majority of temples that I have seen have brahmin pujaris. For every exception you can think of, I am sure you can think of thousands more that adhere to the hereditary system. From this, one can only come to one of two possible conclusions.

1) Most Hindus, including the learned Vedantic commentators, are evil people who associate varna with birth. They are not as enlightened as the Hindu American Foundation, the VHP, and the tens of thousands of other Hindu diaspora whose only knowledge of Hinduism is what they read on a webpage.

2) Hindus did in fact associate varna with heredity, this was the default position, and departures from this standard represent modern innovations.

Eastern Mind
01 May 2013, 09:44 PM
Vannakkam: Frankly, I don't care. It's historical or intellectual trivia to me. All I want to be able to do is go to my temple, sit, and worship Ganesha. Who runs the temple, or who is allowed into the moolasthanam doesn't concern me. If it helped me get calmer, or live a more dharmic lifestyle, I would care. But it is largely irrelevant to me, and I suspect, the vast majority of Hindus.

It's a scholarly debate, and I'm no scholar at all. I'm just a simple bhaktar trying to become closer to God. If sitting in a pile of sewage helped, I suppose I'd go do that.

With that, I'll bow out of this conversation, since I'm one of the evil people, or a modern innovator, or both, I don't know.

Aum Namasivaya

wundermonk
01 May 2013, 10:14 PM
I believe this issue has been discussed over N times on this forum and you were part of at least some of them.

Which is what I said.


Unfortunately, asking the question again is unlikely to help much as the people who may respond to your question belong to the same old set and therefore the responses will be the same.

No. Asking the question again DOES help because unless the person defines a "Brahmin" or a "Shudra" non-circularly, all his arguments can simply be dismissed upfront. This point bears repeating.

Sahasranama
01 May 2013, 11:06 PM
But like I said, it's probably unique to just the places where indentured labour spread Hinduism. Not sure about Fiji, Guyana, South Africa, etc. I am from a Surinam Hindu background living in the Netherlands and traditionally priests have been from brahmin families. They were educated by their parents or by acharyas that came to visit from India. Nowadays things are changing and more people from other castes are taking up the function of priests. A lot of brahmins don't see the value of priesthood, my grandmother's brother who did my upanayana told me it's better to focus on western education than priesthood. On the other hand, a lot of non-brahmins feel discriminated by the older generation of brahmin priests and want to pursue jobs as pujaris. There are temples in the Netherlands that only accept brahmin priests, but there are also a few modern temples that work with non brahmin priests and women. The younger generation doesn't care about these things and are always eager to adopt western values of emancipation. I suppose the Srilankan Tamil community here is much stricter about brahminhood as a qualifier to function as a purohita. There is also a group of Arya Samajists who let anyone become priest.

ShivaFan
01 May 2013, 11:37 PM
Namaste

This introduction of some ridiculous discussion on Brahmin priests in private religious organizations (non-government owned establishments which do not recieve tax payer money from the citizens of the state, or private businesses that hire employees and offer services for profit to the public) has nothing to do with such laws that forbid discrimination based on circumstance of birth whether race or caste.

I am not familiar with all aspects of British law, but the same law as practiced in the United States would have no impact one way or another to private religious institutions which do not receive taxpayer funding to support such institutions.

If your religious institution or temple is not an entity of the goverment by means of receiving government funding of support from the taxes of the hard working citizens, then you can employee only Brahmins, or for that matter only white caucasians, or only gypsy nomads from Spain, whatever you want to do or whoever you want to do pujas.

However, this same Brahmin has no right to raise a hand in violence against any citizen whatsoever who simply walks down the same sidewalk as this Brahmin no matter what race or caste or sex is this citizen who has all the same rights as the Brahmin has. Any Brahmin who dared to do such a thing will be arrested under law as such a madman should be. Such behavior is also illegal in Mother India, and not only is increasingly being enforced, but commonly the expected civility through out all of India.

If this same citizen opens a church which is private, recieves no support from the taxes forcefully taken from other citizens of the state and is a church that operates as a non-profit organization (e.g. not a business for profit), it is considered not to be a governmental entity and thus can discriminate all they want. If such a church does not allow blacks for example, they may do so. Of course, this church cannot murder others, nor for example grab some black from the street and force such a black to wash the floor of the church. You can declare yourself an Aryan Nazi or a Racialist or whatever title you want, and you can enforce whatever personal bathing practices, clothing, prayers or eating regulations a declared Aryan Nazi or Racialist wants to do to his or her body or home, but this same Nazi or Racialist has no right to murder, enslave or subject servitude on another. Your designation applies to your own body, your own mind and your own soul, and gives you no right, zero rights, over the body, mind or soul of another. Only if you BECOME that other person can you do so, only if you ADOPT that other as one with yourself, a beloved son.
No title gives you the right to practice slavery. You can shun anyone you want at your own risk, be it your neighbor, or even your own in-laws or even your own father, but you have no, zero, right or authority to dictate what another can do for a living nor to be your servant or slave.

Any Brahmin who believes he or she can forcefully practice enslavement or servitude of others be it other Brahmins or any other, and attempts to do so in the US or UK, or even in India, should and likely when caught will be sent to prison for crimes against Natural Law (God or Gods).

If this same citizen who in this example is a declared Nazi or Racialist happens to open a beer hall or pub where beer is sold to the public for the business profit of the Nazi who owns the beer hall or pub, this Nazi has no right, zero, to put up a sign that reads "No Jews Allowed". Nor can this Nazi who puts out an employment posting to work in the beer hall or pub have the stipulation "No Jews Can Apply".

Why is this law applied? Because any product sold for profit that has a government tax applied to it, such as beer, makes government part of the business transaction, a partner in it, and government which represents all citizens cannot discriminate against other citizens including Jews. Think of it as government "karma". As a partner in this transaction, the government shares the "karma" of this Nazi in this transaction, and the government is not interested in sharing the evil karma of this Nazi who would kill Jews if given a chance, it already has to burden enough karma for being a partner in the sale of beer.

So you can have a temple, and hire Brahmins, you cannot tell another they cannot have a temple unless they only hire Brahmins.

Certainly you do not have the right to dictate what another does according to their ability and qualities to serve society, to learn and become certified for any profession. You never had that right, not today, nor 10,000 years ago. It is anti-Hindu if you practice such repression, that is the teachings of what was taught to me by authorized authorities of Sanatana Dharma. Don't waste my time insulting others with selective quotes from scripture, my teachers do not agree with you, they are authorized Hindus.

No discrimination laws regarding caste endangers your title. In fact, in the end they are the same sort of anti-discrimination laws that will protect your rights as a Brahmin to do priestly matters, and protect you from the madness of others who hate you. In the United States, you can be a born Brahmin, your can take the lessons on Veda you learned from your father and teach it to anyone, or no one, you like. You may be hired by a temple to do pujas. But you cannot use this to enforce a profession on another, certainly not servitude, if you try then fully expect yourself to be sent to prison. This includes in Mother India.

No one is taking your caste away. What is your body, your mind, your soul is yours and the Divines. Another's is not. You are in a lower Loka. You have too many failures to imagine.

Om Namah Sivaya

Sahasranama
02 May 2013, 12:11 AM
"The government has agreed to outlaw discrimination on the basis of caste, extending legal protection to the estimated 400,000 Dalits - so-called untouchables - who live in the UK."

The law that has been passed does not serve any purpose. Where are these discriminated dalits in Britain? Do they even exist? They are passing a law for the benefit of phantoms to draw negative attention towards Hinduism. Anti-Hindu propagandists always bring up nonexistent persecuted Dalits for their smear campaign.

ShivaFan
02 May 2013, 12:39 AM
Namaste Sahas.

Agree that if the claim is 400,000 dalits in UK, obviously this is a phantom number. I have been to UK and even have family there, I have never seen 400,000 dalits. I do not know British Law. I tried to explain US law and religious rights, I imagine Canada is like US in such and I have relatives in Canada as well (also in India, and elsewhere).

I am not saying we have to love hug low class people, drunks, bums etc.. I am saying we need to wish and help foster wealth for ALL Hindus, because the world is becoming more corrupt and debased. We are a minority in this Loka, and I believe soon there is coming a great conflict with Islam. We must be united, not divided.

Wealth is power. Do not worship wealth, but all Hindus must be wealthy at this time. When you father goes into the forest if you will, you can be wealthy but your father renounced.

In THIS world, in THIS time, there are only really two "castes" - Hindus and non-Hindus.

Hindus must be advisers to men. Listened to by those in power. Their community must be powerful. Again, you do not need to live wealthy to be wealthy.

Jai Hanuman.

Om Namah Sivaya

Sahasranama
02 May 2013, 12:55 AM
They have based this law on complete fiction, but as phil says, on a legal technicality it can be used against Hindus who choose to work only with brahmin priests. In the head of any sensible person, a bell should ring, where is the evidence of the persecuted Dalits in Britain that need protection from the evil brahmins, 400.000 nonetheless? Christians have been using the fiction of persecuted Dalits more than a hundred times as propaganda against Hinduism. Everyone should realise this first when persecuted Dalits are used as an excuse to disadvantage Hindus.

ShivaFan
02 May 2013, 01:09 AM
Namaste Sahas... If that is their thought process that they (UK) imagine evil Brahmins under every bed ready to kill them and dalits, then obviously living in a lie is the mark of circus clowns. When I imagined an MP in fear of Brahmins, I had to laugh.

Maybe you are right. But there is no such thoughts in the US. But there are more than a few circus clowns in the current US Administration that are too busy trying to cover up the fact that the Russians were more on the ball than the CIA or FBI, that they are too busy making cover for their own jobs and power than to worry about Brahmins.

Om Namah Sivaya

dogra
02 May 2013, 07:31 AM
End of the day this bill is there, and now we are moving to bring so called 'dalit' groups together with Hindu alliance as both are against any caste discrimination.
Hindu faith does not condone birth based caste, as verses can easily be produced e.g.http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and-scripture/88527-vedas-hindu-scriptures-prohibit-casteism.html

Our caste is one: Human, with dignity of labour to all functions, as only by working together can society function for the better. Say good morning to cleaner and director e.g. when working in office. Without cleaner office cannt function , so respect to all functions as per Hindu texts.

Also here in UK, cannot remeber last time was asked about my caste, ans have no caste, my function is by education and training, as per my own abilities and nature.
Also we are moving to have verses handed out at temples so that clear humanity is shown, no discrimination, acceptance of all beings.
Jai Mata ji

dogra
02 May 2013, 07:42 AM
As mentioned Arya Samaj, RSS, Agniveer, do not follow caste, Iskon:
http://www.hafsite.org/media/pr/caste-statement-iskcon-communications



ISKCON’s Founder-Acharya, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, was an outspoken critic of the erroneous belief that one’s birth in a particular “caste” determined one’s occupation or station in life. Prabhupada boldly offered a more forward-thinking reading of references to varna# in Vedic#, or Hindu scriptures, arguing that such passages describe a system of natural social stratification intended to help people find the opportunities best suited to them, not to prevent them from making religious or secular progress. Prabhupada stressed that a person’s qualities and activities, not a person’s birth, determined one’s varna#. He strongly condemned discrimination based on a birth-based caste system as a harmful and unauthorized misinterpretation of Vedic scriptures and tradition.

shiv.somashekhar
02 May 2013, 09:03 AM
Dogra,

Once again, caste is not a religious artifact. You have the fundamentals wrong by confusing Varna with caste.

One is a Kayastha or a Naidu by birth only; not by virtue, or lack thereof.

dogra
02 May 2013, 10:06 AM
caste is not a religious, agree.
Can u show where have confused varna and caste, please provide text, before making silly remarks

shiv.somashekhar
02 May 2013, 11:57 AM
caste is not a religious, agree.
Can u show where have confused varna and caste, please provide text, before making silly remarks

You are kidding, right?

Here are some of your statements -

Hindu faith does not condone birth based caste

Prabhupada boldly offered a more forward-thinking reading of references to varna in Vedic...

As mentioned Arya Samaj, RSS, Agniveer, do not follow caste, Iskon:
http://www.hafsite.org/media/pr/cast...communications (http://www.hafsite.org/media/pr/cast...communications)


Our caste is one: Human

Your statement of "caste is one" is mere personal opinion and nothing more. Caste is a huge deal in India to this day, the extent of which can only be grasped by those who live in the country and especially those who are in positions where they get to see the impact (politics, government, education, etc). The government recognizes backward castes, scheduled castes, most backward castes, etc.

For one last time, this has nothing to do with religion. Your references to irrelevant authorities such as Hinduism, Veda, Iskcon, etc. demonstrate your poor understanding of the subject.

shiv.somashekhar
02 May 2013, 12:13 PM
Which is what I said.



No. Asking the question again DOES help because unless the person defines a "Brahmin" or a "Shudra" non-circularly, all his arguments can simply be dismissed upfront. This point bears repeating.

I should also repeat that all these points have been addressed several times already - right on these forums.

I am thinking...how does one define Naidu, Nayar, Gujjar non-circularly? hmm....

Eastern Mind
02 May 2013, 01:37 PM
Vannakkam: In any human rights legislation, the categories increase over time. "Shall not discriminate based on gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. ..." There are also other things like age, class, looks, language, and things like caste that figure into the overall equation. I have no problem putting any of these into a constitution or political statement.

I think we also have to remember that all individuals vary on it, and making generalisations like 'those _______ s are discriminatory is unfair to individuals within that group.

As for priests, usually people hire the most qualified, which generally is Brahmins. I see no difference in that than selecting the players for a football squad who can run the fastest. I don't think some 5 year old girl is about to complain the the human rights guys that she can't play for Man U.

We should be looking at our own subconscious minds and trying to decipher how we ourselves discriminate unfairly, and then take steps to readjust that. We all do, to some degree, whether we want to admit it or not.

Aum Namasivaya

philosoraptor
02 May 2013, 02:30 PM
Vannakkam: Frankly, I don't care. It's historical or intellectual trivia to me. All I want to be able to do is go to my temple, sit, and worship Ganesha. Who runs the temple, or who is allowed into the moolasthanam doesn't concern me. If it helped me get calmer, or live a more dharmic lifestyle, I would care. But it is largely irrelevant to me, and I suspect, the vast majority of Hindus.

It's a scholarly debate, and I'm no scholar at all. I'm just a simple bhaktar trying to become closer to God. If sitting in a pile of sewage helped, I suppose I'd go do that.

With that, I'll bow out of this conversation, since I'm one of the evil people, or a modern innovator, or both, I don't know.

Aum Namasivaya

Pranams.

You don't care because it's a subject with which you are uncomfortable. That is fine, but it is hardly a trivial or academic subject. The Hindu viewpoint on caste is a huge issue that inspires a great deal of anti-Hindu attitude among non-Hindu scholars. Now those ivory-tower attitudes have filtered down to the lowest of the low, the democratically-elected politicians, who are going to push forward legislation which will punish Hindus for "caste discrmination."

Where in the UK are people being discriminated against based on caste? In fact, caste is a non-issue for the majority of Hindus in their ordinary, day-to-day, secular lives, both in the UK and in India. The ONLY area where caste is a persistent issue is in the area of temple employment. While you may not care about the caste of your temple priest, you cannot deny that millions of Hindus do care, and that the vast majority of Hindu temples preferentially employ brahmins as priests. This is the essence of "caste discrmination," but it happens to be religiously sanctioned in the Hindu scriptural tradition. Now, can you really tell me that you don't care that politicians are about to empower themselves to repeatedly punish an entire religious group for following practices that are intrinsic to their religion? Seriously?

You don't have to be a Hindu, or even a scholar, to recognize the evil inherent in this sort of legislation. When you empower the State to intervene in the internal affairs of private organizations based on some preconceived notion of morality, you are giving them carte blanche to attack entire religious groups whose views are not approved of by the majority. This is itself the essence of discrimination, and every thoughtful person should be opposed to it on that basis alone.

Sadly, this thread shows that many Hindus will be perfectly happy with this legislation, as they have bought into Western, egalitarian conceptions of caste, and aren't going to be worried that the government which supports their views will be aggressing against religious institutions in the name of enforcing Western morality.

philosoraptor
02 May 2013, 02:32 PM
ISKCON’s Founder-Acharya, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, was an outspoken critic of the erroneous belief that one’s birth in a particular “caste” determined one’s occupation or station in life. Prabhupada boldly offered a more forward-thinking reading of references to varna# in Vedic#, or Hindu scriptures, arguing that such passages describe a system of natural social stratification intended to help people find the opportunities best suited to them, not to prevent them from making religious or secular progress. Prabhupada stressed that a person’s qualities and activities, not a person’s birth, determined one’s varna#. He strongly condemned discrimination based on a birth-based caste system as a harmful and unauthorized misinterpretation of Vedic scriptures and tradition.

With all due respect, Sri Prabhupada's own translations clearly reveal that varna was hereditary. In his Bhagavatam 1st canto translation, he has translated the story of Ashvatthama, son of Drona, who was a warrior by profession, became a murderer out of spite, and yet was freed from the death sentence on the basis of his being a brahmin.

Sri Prabhupada has also translated Bhagavad-gita in which Arjuna, a kshatriya by birth, was discouraged from adopting a brahmin's work.

philosoraptor
02 May 2013, 02:40 PM
Vannakkam: In any human rights legislation, the categories increase over time. "Shall not discriminate based on gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. ..." There are also other things like age, class, looks, language, and things like caste that figure into the overall equation. I have no problem putting any of these into a constitution or political statement.

In a free society, the government should not discriminate based on these things. That, however, is not the issue. The issue is when the government is empowered to tell private entities that they, too, cannot discriminate. Let's take sexual orientation. There are homosexuals who like Hinduism, and it is conceivable that some would want a Hindu wedding for their "homosexual marriages." The pujari who refuses to marry them would be guilty of discrimination and liable for civil suits with stiff financial penalties. Suddenly, a man who has dedicated his life to worshiping Brahman, whose possessions consist of his sacred thread and a few dhotis, can be sued for tens of thousands of dollars. Does this sound just to you?



We should be looking at our own subconscious minds and trying to decipher how we ourselves discriminate unfairly, and then take steps to readjust that. We all do, to some degree, whether we want to admit it or not.


Everyone "discriminates." Everyone. How you react to a well-dressed man with a confidant gait is different from how you react to a disheveled man wearing rags and looking homeless. Yet the basis for discrimination, their external appearance, says nothing about them from the standpoint of virtue. In Hinduism, their hereditary status tells you what they are supposed to be. When people follow their varNAshrama-dharma, it is quite possible to be well-respected regardless of what you wear or how much money you have. But then, that's a kind of discrimination, too, right? The idea that, "You are a brahmin, therefore you should be a detached, morally upright, and pious being" is discrimination. Small wonder many brahmins don't like birth-based varNAshrama, since they want to distance themselves from society's expectations and enjoy materialistic lifestyle without guilt.

shiv.somashekhar
02 May 2013, 02:49 PM
With all due respect, Sri Prabhupada's own translations clearly reveal that varna was hereditary. In his Bhagavatam 1st canto translation, he has translated the story of Ashvatthama, son of Drona, who was a warrior by profession, became a murderer out of spite, and yet was freed from the death sentence on the basis of his being a brahmin.

Sri Prabhupada has also translated Bhagavad-gita in which Arjuna, a kshatriya by birth, was discouraged from adopting a brahmin's work.

But did Prabhupada provide a non-circular definition? If not, per wundermonk's system of thought, it should all be dismissed!

Eastern Mind
02 May 2013, 03:03 PM
Pranams.

You don't care because it's a subject with which you are uncomfortable.

Vannakkam: I'm not uncomfortable at all. But you can say whatever you want. I make a purposeful intentional attempt to try not to engage in such matters, but sometimes the temptation to enter into such forays is too much and I go open my mouth, which I later realise was a bad idea.:)

On a personal note, It really does disturb my meditation, and concentration worshiping at the temple I frequent, when I get overly engaged in intellectual discussion of the wrongs and rights of governments, Hinduism, etc. The intellect, once started, has this tendency to turn into some circular spiraling snowball, and even such a valuable activity as sleep can be lost.

This is precisely why I really hesitated trying to offer any suggestions in your other thread about how you were having difficulty staying religious in times of so much stress. I see how these two threads are totally related, but somehow I'm not sure if you do. Which is sad, in my opinion. I sure hope this doesn't anger you even more, and make it more difficult still.

Best wishes, seriously, at coming to some sort of peace, so your religious life will improve.

At that shall end this, from my end.

Aum Namasivaya

philosoraptor
02 May 2013, 07:06 PM
Vannakkam: I'm not uncomfortable at all. But you can say whatever you want. I make a purposeful intentional attempt to try not to engage in such matters, but sometimes the temptation to enter into such forays is too much and I go open my mouth, which I later realise was a bad idea.:)

On a personal note, It really does disturb my meditation, and concentration worshiping at the temple I frequent, when I get overly engaged in intellectual discussion of the wrongs and rights of governments, Hinduism, etc. The intellect, once started, has this tendency to turn into some circular spiraling snowball, and even such a valuable activity as sleep can be lost.

This is precisely why I really hesitated trying to offer any suggestions in your other thread about how you were having difficulty staying religious in times of so much stress. I see how these two threads are totally related, but somehow I'm not sure if you do. Which is sad, in my opinion. I sure hope this doesn't anger you even more, and make it more difficult still.

Best wishes, seriously, at coming to some sort of peace, so your religious life will improve.

At that shall end this, from my end.

Aum Namasivaya

Pranams,

No I'm not angry, and you are right - they are related. I don't think brahmins were meant for doing much of the secular work they find themselves doing. I often wonder if I wouldn't be happier just focusing on study of shAstra, but I also wonder if these views don't represent a form of false renunciation. It's an issue I debate with myself often, not yet with any conclusive answer.

But the point I was getting at in this tread is that birth-based varNAshrama is quite integral to traditional Hinduism, the new-age claims notwithstanding, and legislation attempting to punish Hindus for practicing it is an abomination in a society that claims to value liberty and religious tolerance.

ShivaFan
02 May 2013, 07:56 PM
Namaste

Brahmins are nice to hire for temples, but sometimes you can have too many Brahmins in certain situations. Especially if they take up jobs outside of temples, pujari work and such.

Take the example in Mumbai, regarding four Brahmins who could not get a post in a temple. So they bought a Premier Padmini running on CNG and off they went to get their first phara. However, even in Churchgate no one would hail them down in their taxi. So they went to Nariman point, yet even there no one would hail their taxi. So the drove to Chatrapati Shivaji Terminus, and even there no luck.

They were all over Mumbai, they finally pulled up to a Jain walking down the road with a mask and broom. They asked the Jain if he needed a ride. They would even give a taxi ride for free.

The Jain said no. The four Brahmins asked why? “Because all four of you are sitting in the taxi!” said the Jain. “There is no room.”

ShivaFan was standing not far from the Jain, but he decided to take up a free ride rather than wait for the next taxi, squeezed into the back with two other Brahmins, and did have a nice conversation with the Brahmins.

They realized their business mistake, and decided they didn’t want to be in the taxi business because they were not qualified. :)

Om Namah Sivaya

ShivaFan
03 May 2013, 01:57 AM
Namaste

This is fear mongering.

I took a moment to actually look at the law, and it has nothing to do with what a temple or church does or who they decide to do pujas. This has to do with private businesses (those which sell products or services for a profit that includes a tax from the government and thus makes the government a partner to the transaction) which participate in Capitalism, not private religious institutions which are not capitalist enterprises.

I am not a liberal. This isn’t about who is going to marry who, nor quotas, nor reservations.

This has to do with committing a hate crime against another person or group of people or community simply because they are of some caste, such as a group of Muslims attacking some low-castes leaving a temple, or a Brahmin going out and beating on others who the Brahmin says are “shudras” or “dalits”. This has to do with hate crimes. The same hate crimes legislation also protects Brahmins from attacks, such as might come from Muslims living in the UK who were originally from Pakistan. I myself was threatened by such Muslims and told "you should be killed".

The root of the legislation had to do with an employment tribunal where an employee was unfairly dismissed by an employer simply on the grounds of a higher caste hatred for an employee of lower caste. This is obviously a violation of the law even without the added stipulation of “caste” but helps to clarify response to any defense lawyer arguments on behalf of the perpetrator of such a crime who may argue that it wasn’t religious discrimination (already covered under law) since both parties involved were of the same religion.

And in regards to this injection once again of “caste” (e.g. birth-based), it will be a never ending and useless endeavor which, no matter how strong you feel it is birth-based, is not going to be a part of what the Divine intends for us going forward.

Manu (which I do not accept as Veda nor Agama and so I consider it irrelevant other than on the same level as the Jataka Tales of social commentary during a time where society was under stress) cites an inter-“caste” result where the father of a higher caste, has a child with his wife who is a lower caste, the child is the lower caste (e.g. Brahmin father, Shudra Mother = Shudra child). If that is the formula, and case examples of DNA in conjunction with the proven historical and demographical evidence of massive “inter-caste” mixing including massive introduction of “foreigners” (who became various rulers at times within India proper and given the status of Kshatriya), as well as the exodus of certain strata’s of Hindu society (including notable numbers of Brahmins) out from India and into East Asia where later rulers included mix of Brahmins from the original exodus and local Asians (who were given Kshatriya status), and where such Hindus actually returned to India as well over a period of time, countless examples of large segments of Hindu social strata who simply “acquisitioned” some caste (typically higher, such as going from simple farmers to Kshatriya rulers), inclusive of a long history of liars claiming to be one caste or another over time, if the Manu formula was used then the outcome is clear: Probably there isn’t even a single Brahmin left that has true hereditary lineage back some Varna of Vedic times. None, just as, for example, there are no “true Britons” to speak of. Gone.

But many do not accept the “Manu formula”. For example, many consider whatever “caste” or varna the father is (I do not believe in jati whatsoever so that is why I put caste in quotes), no matter what background the wife is then the child is the “caste” of the father. If we follow traditional teachings in Hinduism of the role and status of the father, viz if Father is “A” and Mother is “B” then the child is “A”, this makes more sense and seems to many Hindus to have more credibility than the “Manu formula” viz Father is “A” and Mother is “B” then child is “B”. If this father lineage formula is used, there is a good chance that many living today can defend a title of Brahmin for example – such title can move in a continuous line from generations past to forward just so long as sons are produced to carry it on. This also aligns with the Hindu traditions of why a son is important.

However, I also discount the later as well. I do not discount it in the sense of saying “a father’s title is never the son’s” -- of course the father who has sway over such matters will effect as well as affect in no small measure the future, status, teachings, attitudes, employment and passions of duty within society of the son. But it is not exclusive. There is an entire Guru tradition, and while I admit this tradition is not as old as the Muni tradition or that of “sages”, this Guru tradition is different and not-birth based. For example, whatever the varna the Guru is, the one who takes on the Guru also takes on that varna.

Considering that it is typical (though not always true) that a Guru is seen, accepted, believed to be a Brahmin, than those who adopt the Guru also take the gotra or varna of the Guru. And considering hardly anyone even thinks of being a Guru today (even in the past, but certainly today), any real Guru is the example of all the qualities of a Brahmin and thus all those who become the servants and disciples and initiates of the Guru INCLUDING WESTERNERS they take on the gotra or actually more accurately the varna of that Guru which in most cases would be Brahmin. In some cases it would be Kshatriya or what is called "rulers" or "statesmen".

So using the last example, there is an infusion of so many peoples (and I consider Hinduism is growing even though also threatened), it is literally impossible to classify one from another by “birth”.

Do not quote me Manu, unless you want me to laugh. Adopting varnashrama is in my opinion simply adopting the gotra or varna of the Guru, or from one’s father as well. It is about your qualities. A sage could be coming down a dusty road and encounter a simple man coming towards him, and can adopt that simple man based on qualities. The simple man becomes the varna of the Sage. There is error in Kali Yuga, no doubt – thus false Gurus, bad fathers. Being a soul in a human body in the Kali Yuga is fraught with dangers, and even the best intentions put into “rules” do not have perfect results. But typically those who go undertake a Guru, who enter into a Sampradaya, while yes there are examples of failed souls, for the most part their qualities were the reason they did so. All else means very little. Those who hang on to such racial attitudes about birth-based are already well into the dust bin of history a long time ago, and while in the villages you still see some who are either benefactors or victims to such birth-based attitudes, I think one should not mistake a general admiration of qualities (such as displayed within a Sampradaya or Guru relationship) with acceptance of “birth-based only”.

Again, you can keep any caste you want. Such laws against discrimination, at least from the perspective of the United States, has nothing whatsoever to do with what a private religious institution decides regarding who they will employee as pujaris, be it only Brahmins or not. Discrimination laws are about public entities that sell or offer services for a business profit in which the item in the transaction includes taxes applied that go to the government and are taxes taken from the citizens who are purchasing such products or services and has nothing to do with non-profit religious institutions. It has to do with this, and with hate crimes.

I do not support reservations. I do not support employment shelters and quotas for “scheduled” classes or any racial quotas in hires. I do not support (what is called in the US) affirmative action.

This is not reservations nor affirmative action, nor shelters nor quotas.

Om Namah Sivaya

dogra
03 May 2013, 05:26 AM
You are kidding, right?

Here are some of your statements -

Hindu faith does not condone birth based caste

Prabhupada boldly offered a more forward-thinking reading of references to varna in Vedic...

As mentioned Arya Samaj, RSS, Agniveer, do not follow caste, Iskon:
http://www.hafsite.org/media/pr/cast...communications (http://www.hafsite.org/media/pr/cast...communications)


Our caste is one: Human

Your statement of "caste is one" is mere personal opinion and nothing more. Caste is a huge deal in India to this day, the extent of which can only be grasped by those who live in the country and especially those who are in positions where they get to see the impact (politics, government, education, etc). The government recognizes backward castes, scheduled castes, most backward castes, etc.

For one last time, this has nothing to do with religion. Your references to irrelevant authorities such as Hinduism, Veda, Iskcon, etc. demonstrate your poor understanding of the subject.



Oh dear, you have failed to understand what is said, ,as those number who use religious justification or claim religious justification have no case, period.
Cultural nature of social evil of caste has to be looked at, and how to tackle, India corrupt politicians has made problem worse.
Here in the UK, it is becoming less important year by year, yet we still need to do more to reduce it further.

dogra
03 May 2013, 05:30 AM
With all due respect, Sri Prabhupada's own translations clearly reveal that varna was hereditary. In his Bhagavatam 1st canto translation, he has translated the story of Ashvatthama, son of Drona, who was a warrior by profession, became a murderer out of spite, and yet was freed from the death sentence on the basis of his being a brahmin.

Sri Prabhupada has also translated Bhagavad-gita in which Arjuna, a kshatriya by birth, was discouraged from adopting a brahmin's work.


Now they clearly do not as he has categorically stated so . Varna is not hereditary, as shown, and also birth is not specifically mentioned, as if it was birth this would be clearly stated, you are using examples to try to turn into something, but you have no case:
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and-scripture/88527-vedas-hindu-scriptures-prohibit-casteism.html

Thus, the central command of the 14 harmony richas and 10 profession not hereditary richas of Vedas is that all Hindus are totally equal by birth, of one bunch, share same water and food, worship together united in same temple, common are prayers, common purpose, common thoughts, united like spokes of a wheel, common oblation and friendly towards each others.

One becomes a warrior (Rajnya), Brahman (educated ones) or rishi, not by birth but by his efforts/training (karma) vide RV (X.125.5). No one is superior and no one is inferior by birth.



Srila Prabhupada: The Vedic system of religion we have been describing—the varnashrama system created by Krishna—is not to be confused with the present-day caste system—determination of social divisions by birth. But as to eradication of all social divisions, it cannot be done… But the difficulty is that this so-called caste system has come in, on account of the false notion that in order to be a Brahmin, one must be the son of a Brahmin. That is the caste system. But Krishna does not say that. He says “according to quality and work.” He never says “according to birth.” So this so-called caste system in India is a false notion of catur-varnyam, the system of four social divisions. The real system of catur-varnyam means guna-karma-vibhagasah, determination of the four social divisions according to quality and work. One must be qualified.

dogra
03 May 2013, 05:36 AM
Caste is reducing here in UK, our Holy texts state clear spirtirual lequality and dignity of labour to all functions.
Lord Krishna states 5.18 to view different people with equal eye, then we have moksha -merging with god, but only if you live a noble life. What we see here is reconciliation, there is no reconciliation with Hinduism has hereditary varna!

philosoraptor
03 May 2013, 08:03 AM
This is fear mongering.

I took a moment to actually look at the law, and it has nothing to do with what a temple or church does or who they decide to do pujas. This has to do with private businesses (those which sell products or services for a profit that includes a tax from the government and thus makes the government a partner to the transaction) which participate in Capitalism, not private religious institutions which are not capitalist enterprises.

This distinction is artificial from an economic, legal, and political point of view. Both religious institutions and private businesses are private entities, and as such are exempt from the moral pronouncements of a corrupt, democratically-elected, political elite in a free society. Religious institutions have to follow the same laws when it comes to purchasing land, obtaining building permits, paying employment taxes, and following employment laws. Laws which empower the State to control employment decisions do not, by their very nature, exempt religious institutions, unless said exemptions are specifically legislated. Even then, it's not hard to see how such laws could later be modified to include religious institutions, especially when prevailing sentiments turn against them. Remember: Democracy, which so many appear to implicitly acknowledge as a morally superior institution, is nothing more than imposition of the will of the majority onto the minority at the point of a gun. If you don't understand this, then you don't understand history.

The prevailing attitude of the Western elite towards Hinduism ranges from indifferent to frankly hostile. The tendency among Hindus is to engage in historical revisionism to improve their religion's image in the eyes of the majority.

ShivaFan
03 May 2013, 11:22 AM
Namaste Philosoraptor

You points regarding laws changing are understood, this is always a risk no matter what the government is. Hopefully we get the best government, we get what we deserve often.

(I am having some problems with a new cell phone when typing things into the reply field on this forum, I don’t have time to figure out why right now, excuse any odd paragraphs etc., I am not situated to respond properly, there will be typos as items roll off the phone screen and so on) …

In brief, obviously the risks you describe can happen, but typically not in the manner of how radicals do things. When radicals take over, they typically do not use any of the existing laws to addendum in some radical agenda, but simply ignore entirely the laws of the “old regime”, they pre-stage the approximate event of placing sweeping “new laws” on the people by first establishing un-elected bureaucratic “administrations” of regulation and then after the people become used to being toadies of such “administrations” they then sweep in with the “new laws” that entirely replace the old ones which allow un-elected bureaucratic “administrations” the ability to do anything the un-elected bureaucrats want to do without the vote or consent of the people or the King and his advisers.

The examples you give are real, but that is the consequences in part of what economists and legal scholars and authorities warned about in tax policy. In the old days, taxes were collected directly from the people at a given time or place using a single flat or scale, and not from the transaction of a sale of a product or service. But the people “vote” through silence, if they do not react to something it becomes defacto. Today, tax collection is made at the time of a transaction, that may be convenient but has consequences. I would prefer a returning or creating a flat tax paid once a year (literally, you take out your check book or setup a routing, and pay once or quarterly each year directly to the government a flat, or in some cases a flat scale based on profession, tax to the government rather than on sales – but that isn’t popular and probably isn’t going to happen very soon). We have the later and not what I would desire, but just because it is not what I would desire does not make the latter incorrect as far as legal perspective and logic. A tax collected by the government on the transaction makes the government a partner to every transaction of the business (and thus a partner to the business itself, just as private third-party vendors are a partner and legally in alliance with the company). So the “rules” which the government uses in relation to non-discrimination and civil alliances with the citizens now become the same rules in relation to the business. Government considers this tax collection too important to risk civil standing by the bad behaviors of its partners in private industry.

This is perfectly logical and authorized by government. I do not like it, but it is not “wrong”. The government will say in such a tax structure, that “you did not create this (e.g. the business)” without their help, it would not have been possible. Obama said this recently even. I do not like that, but the facts are, it is also true. It goes way beyond just the fact that the business could not even exist without the public roads built by the taxes of the citizens of the State.

So you are right in regards to dangers, but I do NOT think the current system as applied in such an anti-discrimination would predicate that a private religious institution must hire dalits to do pujas. There is no doubt, a situation could arise where a temple IS in fact told they are discriminating, but that would be the fault of the temple in almost all circumstance. For example, a temple opens, is a legit religious institution at first, but then they open a store front attached to the temple that is selling astrology readings en-mass at notable profit and really there are not many people coming to the temple. The temple may argue that the astrology readings are part of a religious act, or religious ceremony and so on. But it could be the case, that if this temple was not allowing dalits to come in and buy astrology readings in the adjunct, that the government could win a case in court that the temple is in fact running a business and is not a “non-profit” and thus taxes must be collected and the business is not allowed to discriminate. But if I owned the temple, I wouldn’t be so stupid to have such an astrology business adjunct to my temple.

So yes, in some cases it might happen. That is from stupidity.

What radicals do tomorrow, all I can do is scream at my television which my wife complains I do a lot of. But what radicals do, they will try to do no matter what the current law is.

Om Namah Sivaya

Other - In England they will soon be having a King. In England, private property is respected, though at risk, and citizens need to have the right to pass on what a father created, including private property, to the sons and so on. This is at risk, in the UK, in USA. In USA frankly it is less at risk. But this very principle is part of the concept of King. Soon there will be a King of England, and you will begin to see things return to normal because this King will be very popular.

dogra
15 May 2013, 07:06 AM
update:

http://www.hinducounciluk.org/articles/412-meeting-of-hindu-community-re-consultation-process-for-the-caste-legislation


Please note the Hindu organisations have united here in UK, we will work for stronger Hindu community based on humane principles of our faith: Sanatan Dharma.
We do not recognise caste, but god residing in hearts of all beings and dignity of labour to all functions as well as gender equality, all enshrined in our faith.

To those anti hindu elements your anti hindu agenda and propaganda will fail, our faith is clear, distortion of verses, will not work as reconciliation to primal points will fail.

philosoraptor
15 May 2013, 08:48 PM
Please, oh enlightened, meat-eating, liquor-drinking, non-Hindu, British politicians... save us backward Hindus from the errors of our caste-discriminating ways. Save us from our temples which unfairly hire only Brahmins and males as priests. Show these veda pandits what the true Hinduism is.

dogra
17 May 2013, 04:01 AM
By all means any priests that discriminate will be condemned, and a case was taken up by one of the Hindu bodies.
Any cases of pandits discriminating kindly report to the following link:
http://www.hinducounciluk.org/

Vedic scriptures are clear on clear spiritual equality, and dignity of labour.

Those anti hindu elements take heed, we will defend our faith, take heed!

philosoraptor
17 May 2013, 07:11 AM
How ironic that Hindus who are clueless about their own culture should spearhead the assault on Hinduism.

Yeah, let's get those Hindu temples where they only hire brahmin priests! This is total discrimination and is against Hinduism. I know because agniveer.com tells me so! I'm sure it's only 1 or 2 bad temples, the rest will be totally unaffected by this policy, right?

philosoraptor
17 May 2013, 07:28 AM
Wait, I just had a thought. Once we're done with this policy of ethnic cleansing, er, I mean, punishing Hindu temples where they hire only hereditary brahmins, what will be left of Hinduism? What temples will still be standing after the "anti-discrimination" statutes get enforced?

The answer is: ISKCON temples. Since ISKCON does not discriminate based on caste, gender, previous religious affiliation, or other background factors, ISKCON will have the majority share in the post-anti-caste-discrimination Hinduism world.

How many of you "all gods are the same God" believers are relishing the thought of this brave new world of Hinduism in which your choices of where to worship are limited to ISKCON, ISKCON, and... ISKCON?

dogra
21 May 2013, 07:22 AM
Oh dear, ignorant nonsense at its worst. It is quite clear that Sanatan Dharma scriptures are for spiritual equality.
Hereditary Bhramin priests is a cultural issue, no doubt about that, but does not mean others cannot become priests as long as they are qualified, then no problem.
We will continue, those that oppose come on, come on face us, state your case at meetings.
we are moving, you want to stop come and try anytime.......
Anti hindu elements take heed, your pathetic anti hindu agenda is doomed

dogra
21 May 2013, 07:25 AM
Information website for UK:

http://mycasteishindu.org/

philosoraptor
21 May 2013, 07:44 AM
Oh dear, ignorant nonsense at its worst. It is quite clear that Sanatan Dharma scriptures are for spiritual equality.
Hereditary Bhramin priests is a cultural issue, no doubt about that, but does not mean others cannot become priests as long as they are qualified, then no problem.

How many examples can you think of, from our "Sanatan Dharma scriptures," in which non-Brahmins became priests?

And while we're on that subject, how do you reconcile your views with the fact that Shankara, Madhva, and Ramanuja - the great main Vedanta commentators, all agreed that hereditary shudras are not eligible to study the Veda? Let's analyze our positions here. These three stalwart scholars were learned in the Vedas and the dharma-shAstras, whereas your entire knowledge of Hinduism comes from what you read on agniveer.com and other similar websites. Are you really going to tell us that that the Vedantins were wrong and you are right on this issue?



We will continue, those that oppose come on, come on face us, state your case at meetings.
we are moving, you want to stop come and try anytime.......
Anti hindu elements take heed, your pathetic anti hindu agenda is doomed

You have been brainwashed to think that opposition to this legislation is "anti-Hindu." In fact, the legislation itself is anti-Hindu, since it can be used to punish Hindu temples for their traditional practice of hiring brahmin priests, which, contrary to Hindu revisionist thinkers, has been the standard for centuries. The idea that "well, that's not really the intention, so we can give the government this power" should be dismissed by anyone who doesn't want to appear uninformed. It is well-known that empowering the government based on good intentions has resulted in people surrendering their natural rights, and it will continue to do so. This legislation is ill-conceived and appears to be designed solely to score political points from the ignorant masses who don't know any better.

ShivaFan
21 May 2013, 08:18 AM
Namaste.

Perhaps it is too early in the life of the law since it just passed, however since the main concern here seems to be the fear that the local or regional government will order a private Hindu temple to hire non-Brahmins to be pujaris such as dalits for example, can anyone cite an example of that happening already under this legislation?

If someone can cite even one example of a private temple (e.g. one not living off the dole of taxpayer's money) being told under this legislation "you must hire dalits and other non-brahmins as priests" then obviously you will have support in reforming such abuse of power that was legislatively an over-reach of the government role in private affairs and interpretation of civil rights.

Has this already happened under this legislation? If so, then I would oppose such action even though I have no say in the affairs since I am American and not a UK citizen.

But until then, why play this "Brahmin card" if you will? Maybe I will be proven wrong in the end, but I don't think it has happened yet nor will happen.

Om Namah Sivaya

philosoraptor
21 May 2013, 08:30 AM
But until then, why play this "Brahmin card" if you will? Maybe I will be proven wrong in the end, but I don't think it has happened yet nor will happen.


And that is the kind of ignorance of history that allows bad laws to get on the books, and are the failing of democracy.

In the United States, no one in power thought that passage of the Patriot Act and other anti-terrorism measures would lead to violations of civil rights. "Give me one good example of an innocent person being punished by this law" was the argument. And so it was passed with bipartisan support. Now, just 10 years later, we have government spying on journalists, government arresting whistle-blowers, government strip-searching disabled grandmothers and scared children at airport checkpoints, government targeting political rivals for tax audits, government wiretapping phones without a warrant, government spying on our email and text messages without a warrant, government sending drones in the skies to watch over us, government making routine stops and searches of innocent travellers near border checkpoints (not crossing borders, just near the borders), government indefinitely detaining suspects (not criminals, but suspects) without legal representation or guarantee of a speedy trial, etc etc etc.

Number of terrorists caught due to these policies? Zero. Amount of money added to the debt? Trillions. Chances of the law being repealed in the near future? Zero.

Because that's how democracy works. You capitalize on the ignorance of people to get bad laws passed. Then you denounce anyone who objects as "anti-(x)" where (x) can have any value, i.e. "American," "freedom," "liberty," "Christian," etc. In this case, X = Hindu.

ShivaFan
21 May 2013, 09:38 AM
Namaste Philosoraptor.

Yes, folks of the "politcal" wing many Americans including myself have, indeed share your concern regarding over-reach of government in it's role and power which should be the jurisdiction of Natural Law. Yes, it is true, once you give government that is based in special interests for their constituency and power, even if given for good intentions, it is difficult for the people or private ebtity to take back that power which then starts to be used for anything and everything never intended.

But what can be done? All that can be done in this time is take one day at a time, and when over reach happens then fight it, bring it to attention, and just as important have the wealth and power to fight.

That is why I always say, I want ALL Hindus to be wealthy, and to be united and not divided. If this can happen, you will see oneday a REAL horrific crisis will come, but we will be united and defend the community.

Thosr things that unite the community and the larger Family of Hinduism will in the end be the greatest blessing of all.

Om Namah Sivaya

philosoraptor
21 May 2013, 10:07 AM
But what can be done?


You can speak out against, or at the very least, refuse to support, those politicians who refuse to follow the rule of law. In a free society in which laws are based on natural law, there is no room for people trying to empower government to fulfill their social and moral agendas.

All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.

dogra
22 May 2013, 06:58 AM
How many examples can you think of, from our "Sanatan Dharma scriptures," in which non-Brahmins became priests?

And while we're on that subject, how do you reconcile your views with the fact that Shankara, Madhva, and Ramanuja - the great main Vedanta commentators, all agreed that hereditary shudras are not eligible to study the Veda? Let's analyze our positions here. These three stalwart scholars were learned in the Vedas and the dharma-shAstras, whereas your entire knowledge of Hinduism comes from what you read on agniveer.com and other similar websites. Are you really going to tell us that that the Vedantins were wrong and you are right on this issue?




Similar websites, oh dear, better get a does of the reality of the verses in Vedas themselves, and then speak.
Shocking that u think u can tell Hindu faith that hereditary is the way when the scriptures do not.
Let us also see:
http://www.hafsite.org/media/pr/caste-statement-iskcon-communications

Alliance of Hindu organisations also disagree with you e.g.:
http://mycasteishindu.org/

dogra
22 May 2013, 07:01 AM
Now also:

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and-scripture/88527-vedas-hindu-scriptures-prohibit-casteism.html

Thus, the central command of the 14 harmony richas and 10 profession not hereditary richas of Vedas is that all Hindus are totally equal by birth, of one bunch, share same water and food, worship together united in same temple, common are prayers, common purpose, common thoughts, united like spokes of a wheel, common oblation and friendly towards each others.

One becomes a warrior (Rajnya), Brahman (educated ones) or rishi, not by birth but by his efforts/training (karma) vide RV (X.125.5). No one is superior and no one is inferior by birth.



Very disturbing when individuals like yourself try to twist around and you cannot even reconcile back to Moksha.......
Anyone one can become of any profession given their training and knowledge and thats a fact, as per sanatan Dharma scriptures

dogra
22 May 2013, 07:13 AM
You have been brainwashed to think that opposition to this legislation is "anti-Hindu." In fact, the legislation itself is anti-Hindu, since it can be used to punish Hindu temples for their traditional practice of hiring brahmin priests, which, contrary to Hindu revisionist thinkers, has been the standard for centuries. The idea that "well, that's not really the intention, so we can give the government this power" should be dismissed by anyone who doesn't want to appear uninformed. It is well-known that empowering the government based on good intentions has resulted in people surrendering their natural rights, and it will continue to do so. This legislation is ill-conceived and appears to be designed solely to score political points from the ignorant masses who don't know any better.

Oh dear what a load of personal nonsense.
Bill has been passed it is up to British law to decide, pros and cons either side. It is done, we are now responding to it as we do not want to be labelled with caste on census.
Pointless to go on what is done as regards bill, that cannot be changed, so we move forward on how best to meet our community needs here in UK, and the alliance does not subscribe to hereditary nonsense also:

http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Caste_System6.htm

Sage Vyasa, a Brahmin sage and the most revered author of the major Hindu scriptures, was the son of Satyavati, a low caste woman. Vyasa's father, Sage Parasara, had fallen in love with Satyavati, a fisherwoman, and had married her. Vyasa's deep knowledge of the Vedas later determined the caste of Vyasa as Brahmin sage, and not his birth to a low caste-woman.

Sage Valmiki, the celebrated author of of the epic, Ramayana, was a low caste hunter. He came to be known as a Brahmin sage on the basis of his profound knowledge of the scriptures and his authorship of the Ramayana.
Sage Aitareya, who wrote the Aitareya Upanishad and was born of a Shudra woman.
Rishi Parashar, the famous law-giver was the son of a Chandala, the lowest of the Sudras.
Rishi Vasishta was the son of a prostitute, but honored as a sage.
http://www.hinduwisdom.info/images/ROSEY16.gif Sage Vidura, a Brahmin sage who gave religious instruction to Kind Dhritarashtra, was born to a low caste woman servant of the palace. His caste as a Brahmin sage was determined on the basis of his wisdom and knowledge of Dharma Shastras (scriptures).
http://www.hinduwisdom.info/images/ROSEY16.gif The Kauravas and Pandavas were the descendants of Satyavati, a low caste fisher-woman, and the sons of Sage Vyasa. Vyasa's father was the Brahmin Sage Parasara, the grandson of Sage Vasishtha. In spite of this mixed heredity, the Kauravas and Pandavas were known as Kshatriyas on the basis of their occupation.

http://www.hinduwisdom.info/images/ROSEY16.gif Chandragupta Maurya was from the Muria tribe, which used to collect peacock (mor) feathers; Samrat Ashok was the son of a daasi.
http://www.hinduwisdom.info/images/ROSEY16.gif Saint Thiruvalluvar who wrote Thirukural was only a weaver. Other saints were adored including Kabir, Sura Dasa, Ram Dasa and Tukaram came from the humblest class of Hindu society.

dogra
22 May 2013, 07:21 AM
Hindu council UK report on caste:
http://www.hinducounciluk.org/reports/333-the-caste-system

Time and again non hindu elements will not succeed in their poor attempts to convince Hindu people that they follow hereditary policies, understand Vedas are clear.

(X.191.2): “Meet together, talk together, let your minds apprehend alike: in like manner as the ancient gods concurring accepted their portion of the sacrifice.” RV (X.191.3) “Common be the prayer of these (assembled worshippers), common be the acquirement, common the purpose, associated be the desire. I repeat for you a common prayer, I offer for you a common oblation.” RV (X.191.4) “Common (worshippers), be your intention; common be (the wishes of) your heart; common be your thoughts, so that there may be thorough union among you.”



where is reconciliation where , only to humanity is there reconciliation and why , as that is the fact!

dogra
22 May 2013, 07:35 AM
BBC cannot show evidence for hereditary caste in hinduism:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200506/ldselect/ldbbc/128/128we52.htm


Radio 4 "Sunday programme" on 26 September 2004. One of the issues examined in this programme was to see if caste discrimination is operating in the UK. The programme makers were informed that just as the English Class system operating in Christian England cannot be said to be Christianity; the hereditary caste operating in India is not Hinduism. Hereditary caste does not have sanction within the scriptures of authority of Hinduism, so the programme should make this clear.


Facts:

THE BBC'S FAILURE TO PORTRAY THE KEY FEATURES OF HINDUISM

The key themes of Hinduism that the BBC (to our knowledge) has never explored in depth are:

(a) Religious Pluralism, which accepts and celebrates many pathways for making spiritual progress incorporating theistic as well as non-theistic approaches. It is religious pluralism that allows many religions to co-exist on a rational format. It is religious pluralism that allows religions to co-exist with full dignity and without compromise. It is this feature of Hinduism that holds the answer to how people of different faiths can co-exist peacefully in a multi-faith society. Despite the serious need to invoke this theme in its programming to diffuse the issue of strife in the name of religion post 9/11, the BBC production teams have failed to do so.
(b) The Divinity of mankind is the conclusion of the Hindu religion. This teaching offers the highest dignity to mankind. It transfers reverence reserved for an invisible being in an invisible plane to reverence for all living things here and now. It defines the worship of God as service to mankind. The most potent aspect of this teaching is that it displaces materialistic humanism with spiritual humanism. It gives the best reason for being altruistic. It teaches that the reason why we should value life is not because we are all made from the same sophisticated lumps of carbon but because we are all expressions of the spirit. The BBC has not explored the Hindu version of humanism, called Spiritual humanism.
(c) Reconciling the truth claims of Science and Religion is a theme Hindu teachings are well geared to explore, but no such programme has ever been commissioned. Hindu teachings are in broad agreement with the theory of evolution, the big bang, quantum mechanics and the life sciences. Such exploration can make religious teachings interesting and exciting and may even lead the way for modern sciences to take conceptual leaps towards unifying science with spirituality.

As Lord Krishna says God resides in hearts of all beings.
people with hereditary views in hinduism are hanging of a cliff by their fingernails, time to let go and let facts of clear humanity in Vedas to shine through

shiv.somashekhar
22 May 2013, 08:26 AM
Clearly, traditional systems of pedigree are distasteful in today's world.

Perhaps it may have been a little more dignified if these revisionists accepted that they are bucking tradition as they disagree with it, instead of distorting scriptures to find new meanings relevant to 2013, thus claiming that thousands of years of tradition was based on misinterpretation of scripture - which these people are now correcting!

philosoraptor
22 May 2013, 10:46 AM
Sage Vyasa, a Brahmin sage and the most revered author of the major Hindu scriptures, was the son of Satyavati, a low caste woman. Vyasa's father, Sage Parasara, had fallen in love with Satyavati, a fisherwoman, and had married her. Vyasa's deep knowledge of the Vedas later determined the caste of Vyasa as Brahmin sage, and not his birth to a low caste-woman.

Sage Valmiki, the celebrated author of of the epic, Ramayana, was a low caste hunter. He came to be known as a Brahmin sage on the basis of his profound knowledge of the scriptures and his authorship of the Ramayana.
Sage Aitareya, who wrote the Aitareya Upanishad and was born of a Shudra woman.
Rishi Parashar, the famous law-giver was the son of a Chandala, the lowest of the Sudras.
Rishi Vasishta was the son of a prostitute, but honored as a sage.
Sage Vidura, a Brahmin sage who gave religious instruction to Kind Dhritarashtra, was born to a low caste woman servant of the palace. His caste as a Brahmin sage was determined on the basis of his wisdom and knowledge of Dharma Shastras (scriptures).

Here we go again with the crass, religious revisionism. Once again, telling the truth is not important when you have an ideology to support.

Vyaasa: Was NOT, I repeat, NOT, the son of a "low-caste woman." Satyavati was the daughter of Upachari Vasu, a kshatriya, whose seminal discharge found its way into a fish.

Aitareya, Paraashara, Vasishtha: I'm calling your bluff. Where is the scriptural evidence stating this? Please quote specifics.

Vidura: Was not a brahmin sage. Again, where is your evidence claiming that he was a brahmin? Merely saying that he was highly respected is not the same thing as saying he was a brahmin.

Kauravas and Pandavas: Again, the website you are quoting from is wrong. Satyavati was not of shudra caste.

Thiruvalluvar, Kabir das, etc: Were historical persons, and as such their caste status cannot be substantiated by scripture.

This is what happens when you use Google pramaana to learn about Hinduism.

philosoraptor
22 May 2013, 10:51 AM
One becomes a warrior (Rajnya), Brahman (educated ones) or rishi, not by birth but by his efforts/training (karma) vide RV (X.125.5). No one is superior and no one is inferior by birth.


Once again, more deception from the Neo-Hindu group.

Here is Rg Veda 10.125.5:

ahameva svayamidaṃ vadāmi juṣṭaṃ devebhirutamānuṣebhiḥ |
yaṃ kāmaye taṃ-tamughraṃ kṛṇomi tambrahmāṇaṃ taṃ ṛṣiṃ taṃ sumedhām ||

"I, verily, myself announce and utter the word that Gods and men alike shall welcome. I make the man I love exceeding mighty, make him a sage, a Ṛṣi, and a Brahman." http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10125.htm

Dogra, don't you feel it's important to tell the truth? Why do you so brazenly lie about what our scriptures say? Is it just that you find that the ends justify the means?

philosoraptor
22 May 2013, 11:17 AM
Hindu council UK report on caste:
http://www.hinducounciluk.org/reports/333-the-caste-system

Time and again non hindu elements will not succeed in their poor attempts to convince Hindu people that they follow hereditary policies, understand Vedas are clear.



(X.191.2): “Meet together, talk together, let your minds apprehend alike: in like manner as the ancient gods concurring accepted their portion of the sacrifice.” RV (X.191.3) “Common be the prayer of these (assembled worshippers), common be the acquirement, common the purpose, associated be the desire. I repeat for you a common prayer, I offer for you a common oblation.” RV (X.191.4) “Common (worshippers), be your intention; common be (the wishes of) your heart; common be your thoughts, so that there may be thorough union among you.”

where is reconciliation where , only to humanity is there reconciliation and why , as that is the fact!

What does any of the above have to do with following or not following of hereditary class system? People of all varNas did go to the same yagnas - that is a fact. It does not imply that they did not inherit their varNa status.

Here is a non-Agniveer.com translation of the above mantras:

1. THOU, mighty Agni, gatherest up all that is precious for thy friend.
Bring us all treasures as thou art enkindled in libation's place
2 Assemble, speak together: let your minds be all of one accord,
As ancient Gods unanimous sit down to their appointed share.
3 The place is common, common the assembly, common the mind, so be their thought united.
A common purpose do I lay before you, and worship with your general oblation.
4 One and the same be your resolve, and be your minds of one accord.
United be the thoughts of all that all may happily agree.

I fail to see what any of the above has to do with refuting hereditary varNAshrama.

Here is the sanskrit-mULa for those who take issue with the translation:

saṃ-samid yuvase vṛṣannaghne viśvānyarya ā |
iḷas padesamidhyase sa no vasūnyā bhara ||
saṃ ghachadhvaṃ saṃ vadadhvaṃ saṃ vo manāṃsi jānatām |
devā bhāghaṃ yathā pūrve saṃjānānā upāsate ||
samāno mantraḥ samitiḥ samānī samānaṃ manaḥ saha cittameṣām |
samānaṃ mantramabhi maṇtraye vaḥ samānena vohaviṣā juhomi ||
samānī va ākūtiḥ samānā hṛdayāni vaḥ |
samānamastu vomano yathā vaḥ susahāsati ||

ShivaFan
22 May 2013, 01:37 PM
Namaste Philosoraptor

Lunch break and work, and I read the good news:

""I, verily, myself announce and utter the word that Gods and men alike shall welcome. I make the man I love exceeding mighty, make him a sage, a Ṛṣi, and a Brahman.""

The Divine makes everything. I am sure glad the Diviine can make me a Rishi immediately! And yes, one who comes to know the Brahman, by the grace of Guru and the Divine, can be a knower of the Brahman or a Brahman.

Thanks!

Om Namah Sivaya

dogra
23 May 2013, 06:55 AM
Here we go again with the crass, religious revisionism. Once again, telling the truth is not important when you have an ideology to support.

Vyaasa: Was NOT, I repeat, NOT, the son of a "low-caste woman." Satyavati was the daughter of Upachari Vasu, a kshatriya, whose seminal discharge found its way into a fish.

Aitareya, Paraashara, Vasishtha: I'm calling your bluff. Where is the scriptural evidence stating this? Please quote specifics.

Vidura: Was not a brahmin sage. Again, where is your evidence claiming that he was a brahmin? Merely saying that he was highly respected is not the same thing as saying he was a brahmin.

Kauravas and Pandavas: Again, the website you are quoting from is wrong. Satyavati was not of shudra caste.

Thiruvalluvar, Kabir das, etc: Were historical persons, and as such their caste status cannot be substantiated by scripture.

This is what happens when you use Google pramaana to learn about Hinduism.

oh dear so these websites are all lying, whatever makes you happy,yes, dear me face the facts of the beautiful faith of sanatan dharma.

dogra
23 May 2013, 06:59 AM
Once again, more deception from the Neo-Hindu group.

Here is Rg Veda 10.125.5:

ahameva svayamidaṃ vadāmi juṣṭaṃ devebhirutamānuṣebhiḥ |
yaṃ kāmaye taṃ-tamughraṃ kṛṇomi tambrahmāṇaṃ taṃ ṛṣiṃ taṃ sumedhām ||

"I, verily, myself announce and utter the word that Gods and men alike shall welcome. I make the man I love exceeding mighty, make him a sage, a Ṛṣi, and a Brahman." http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10125.htm

Dogra, don't you feel it's important to tell the truth? Why do you so brazenly lie about what our scriptures say? Is it just that you find that the ends justify the means?
Oh dear, brazenly lie, what a load of personal nonsense, and the fact that you look to griffith translation reveals your total pathetic attempts to tell us Hindu faith that we believe in hereditary and yet cannot find the verses in Vedas that explicitly state this, cmon show clear verse where it states we believe in hereditary, cmon, bbc could not, so cmon if there was hereditary it would be clearly stated as 1+1=2, clearly stated , but it isnt and why because there is no hereditary caste nonsense.
We the AHO- Alliance of Hindu organisations reject this scurillous claims that Hinduism supports hereditary caste, word 'caste' is from a portugese word-casta, so how can this be in scriptures, beggars belief!

dogra
23 May 2013, 07:02 AM
What does any of the above have to do with following or not following of hereditary class system? People of all varNas did go to the same yagnas - that is a fact. It does not imply that they did not inherit their varNa status.

Here is a non-Agniveer.com translation of the above mantras:

1. THOU, mighty Agni, gatherest up all that is precious for thy friend.
Bring us all treasures as thou art enkindled in libation's place
2 Assemble, speak together: let your minds be all of one accord,
As ancient Gods unanimous sit down to their appointed share.
3 The place is common, common the assembly, common the mind, so be their thought united.
A common purpose do I lay before you, and worship with your general oblation.
4 One and the same be your resolve, and be your minds of one accord.
United be the thoughts of all that all may happily agree.

I fail to see what any of the above has to do with refuting hereditary varNAshrama.

Here is the sanskrit-mULa for those who take issue with the translation:

saṃ-samid yuvase vṛṣannaghne viśvānyarya ā |
iḷas padesamidhyase sa no vasūnyā bhara ||
saṃ ghachadhvaṃ saṃ vadadhvaṃ saṃ vo manāṃsi jānatām |
devā bhāghaṃ yathā pūrve saṃjānānā upāsate ||
samāno mantraḥ samitiḥ samānī samānaṃ manaḥ saha cittameṣām |
samānaṃ mantramabhi maṇtraye vaḥ samānena vohaviṣā juhomi ||
samānī va ākūtiḥ samānā hṛdayāni vaḥ |
samānamastu vomano yathā vaḥ susahāsati ||

Haha that was not even agniveer , dear me looks like your terrifed by agniveer, so be it they are doing a great job in stating the facts of sanatan dharma.
Now what has this got to do with hereditary, you cant see the clear humanity in those verses that reconcile back to clear freedom, dignity, humanity....




Let go of your finger nails of the cliff, and see the clear humanity in sanatan dharma

dogra
23 May 2013, 07:10 AM
Baba Ramdev:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/baba-ramdev/there-is-no-birth-based-caste-system-in-our-vedas/10150349615575037


Many examples exist of change of Varnas in Vedic history.

a. Aitareya Rishi was son of a Daasa or criminal but became a Brahmin of highest order and wrote Aitareya Brahman and Aitareyopanishad. Aitareya Brahman is considered critical to understand Rigveda.

b. Ailush Rishi was son of a Daasi, gambler and of low character. However he researched on Rigveda and made several discoveries. Not only was he invited by Rishis but also made an Acharya. (Aitareya Brahman 2.19)

c. Satyakaam Jaabaal was son of a prostitute but became a Brahmin.

d. Prishadh was son of King Daksha but became a Shudra. Further he did Tapasya to achieve salvation after repenting.
(Vishnu Puran 4.1.14)

Had Tapasya been banned for Shudra as per the fake story from Uttar Ramayan, how could Prishadh do so?

e. Nabhag, soon of King Nedishtha became Vaishya. Many of his sons again became Kshatriya. (Vishnu Puran 4.1.13)

f. Dhrist was son of Nabhag (Vaishya) but became Brahmin and his son became Kshatriya (VP 4.2.2)

g. Further in his generation, some became Brahmin again (VP 9.2.23)

h. As per Bhagvat, Agniveshya became Brahmin though born to a king.

i. Rathotar born in Kshatriya family became a Brahmin as per Vishnu Puran and Bhagvat.

j. Haarit became Brahmin though born to Kshatriya (VP 4.3.5)

k. Shaunak became Brahmin though born in Kshatriya family. (VP 4.8.1). In fact, as per Vayu Puran, Vishnu Puran and
Harivansh Puran, sons of Shaunak Rishi belonged to all four Varnas.

Similar examples exist of Gritsamad, Veethavya and Vritsamati.

l. Matanga was son of Chandal but became a Brahmin.

m. Raavan was born from Pulatsya Rishi but became a Rakshas.

n. Pravriddha was son of Raghu King but became a Rakshas.

o. Trishanku was a king but became a Chandal

p. Sons of Vishwamitra became Shudra. Vishwamitra himself was a Kshatriya who later became a Brahmin.

q. Vidur was son of a servant but became a Brahmin and minister of Hastinapur empire

dogra
23 May 2013, 07:12 AM
http://www.hitxp.com/articles/history/vedic-caste-system-hinduism/


Bhagavata clearly says in 7.11.35 that
yasya yal laks?an?am? proktam?
um?so varn??bhivya�jakam
ad anyatr?pi dr??yeta
at tenaiva vinirdi?et
which means “Just because one is born to a brahmin doesnt automatically make him a brahmin. But he has more chances of becoming a brahmin (since his parents can transfer the knowledge and duties to him). But he MUST get all those qualifications of brahmin to become a brahmin. On the other hand if a person born to a non-brahmin possesses all the qualities of a brahmin, he/she should be immediately accepted as a brahmin.”

philosoraptor
23 May 2013, 08:51 AM
*rolls his eyes*

philosoraptor
23 May 2013, 08:55 AM
Oh dear, brazenly lie, what a load of personal nonsense, and the fact that you look to griffith translation reveals

... the fact that it's easily available on the web, and nothing more.

In any case, I provided the Sanskrit, in case you take issue with the translation.

dogra
24 May 2013, 05:07 AM
... the fact that it's easily available on the web, and nothing more.

In any case, I provided the Sanskrit, in case you take issue with the translation.

Again poor to use Griffith translation, Sanskrit is there the source and Hindu faith people have translated.

Again we the Alliance of Hindu organisations reject pathetic attempts to malign the Beautiful faith of sanatan dharma.
No to hereditary caste in scriptures.
Here is Shyam who have made you tube videos of B. Gita verse, and have attended one of their lectures where they have stated no hereditary caste.

http://www.gitaclass.org/Home_Page.html

Omkara
24 May 2013, 05:59 AM
Again poor to use Griffith translation, Sanskrit is there the source and Hindu faith people have translated.

This Griffith-bashing is unnecessary and ill-founded. Griffith and Wilson's translations are based on Sayana's commentary, and Sayana was the Shankaracharya of Sringeri Math. This should be enough to prove that Griffith's translations are at least grammatically correct, though other interpretations may be possible.

charitra
24 May 2013, 08:17 AM
Similar websites, oh dear, better get a does of the reality of the verses in Vedas themselves, and then speak.
Shocking that u think u can tell Hindu faith that hereditary is the way when the scriptures do not.
Let us also see:
http://www.hafsite.org/media/pr/caste-statement-iskcon-communications

Alliance of Hindu organisations also disagree with you e.g.:
http://mycasteishindu.org/

Agniveer has been doing a stellar job, from protecting hindus from getting bullied by the outsiders to warding off the attempts at weakening the faith by the insiders, it remained a source of strength in recent times. Namaste.

shiv.somashekhar
24 May 2013, 10:56 AM
Here is Shyam who have made you tube videos of B. Gita verse, and have attended one of their lectures where they have stated no hereditary caste.

You keep saying that.

1. Can a Kayasta become a Mudaliar?
2. Can an Iyengar become a Gowda?

Please explain.

philosoraptor
24 May 2013, 05:26 PM
You keep saying that.

1. Can a Kayasta become a Mudaliar?
2. Can an Iyengar become a Gowda?

Please explain.

Oh, Shiv, how anti-Hindu of you to ask!

....

philosoraptor
24 May 2013, 05:39 PM
Again poor to use Griffith translation, Sanskrit is there the source and Hindu faith people have translated.

I gave you the Sanskrit, but you did not even touch it. Moreover, the translations offered by your "Hindu faith people" have a lot of extraneous material that I can't find in the Sanskrit. Maybe you can parse out the Sanskrit and explain to me why you think they are inaccurate and why your misleading translations are actually correct?



Again we the Alliance of Hindu organisations reject pathetic attempts to malign the Beautiful faith of sanatan dharma.

My morning routine involves waking up before sunrise, doing puja, doing sandhya vandanam, and studying scriptures like Upanishads and Puranas on a regular basis. What is it exactly about me that leads you to peg me as an anti-hindu who is trying to "malign the Beautiful faith of sanatan dharma?" Is it just because I don't agree with you?

What if I woke up late every day, ate meat, drank liquor, but supported your opinions on Hinduism? Would I be a "true Hindu" then, in your eyes?

philosoraptor
26 May 2013, 01:23 PM
My morning routine involves waking up before sunrise, doing puja, doing sandhya vandanam, and studying scriptures like Upanishads and Puranas on a regular basis. What is it exactly about me that leads you to peg me as an anti-hindu who is trying to "malign the Beautiful faith of sanatan dharma?" Is it just because I don't agree with you?

What if I woke up late every day, ate meat, drank liquor, but supported your opinions on Hinduism? Would I be a "true Hindu" then, in your eyes?

I guess no answer is forthcoming....

dogra
28 May 2013, 06:54 AM
You keep saying that.

1. Can a Kayasta become a Mudaliar?
2. Can an Iyengar become a Gowda?

Please explain.


Simple terms any human being regardless of birth can be of any profession according to their training and education.
Again the alliance of Hindu organisations reject these pathetic attempts to malign the Hindu faith:
http://www.mycasteishindu.org/

Now those that follow hereditary caste, verfiy by scriptural injunction in clear 1+1 verses, not suppoosing this and that, as if there was hereditary caste then it would clearly say so as 1+1=2
Cmon, please check previous posts.
Purush sukta is not based on any hereditary it is all parts of body working together.
It is shocking that a number of Hindu faith people are trying to convince others that this exists, all we will make clear you have voices in Alliance for hindu organisations.

dogra
28 May 2013, 07:00 AM
I gave you the Sanskrit, but you did not even touch it. Moreover, the translations offered by your "Hindu faith people" have a lot of extraneous material that I can't find in the Sanskrit. Maybe you can parse out the Sanskrit and explain to me why you think they are inaccurate and why your misleading translations are actually correct?





Dear me, fact you choose griffith rather than Hindu faith translations shows you up.
You cant even show where this clear hereditary verses are as previous asked, why, cmon show clear verses as if there were it would be clearly stated.

What is it exactly about me that leads you to peg me as an anti-hindu who is trying to "malign the Beautiful faith of sanatan dharma?" Is it just because I don't agree with you?

What if I woke up late every day, ate meat, drank liquor, but supported your opinions on Hinduism? Would I be a "true Hindu" then, in your eyes?

You can disagree but when you talk utter trash as regards hereditary caste but cannot show clear vedic injunction, then i will respond simple, as many organisations and verses show otherwise, it is shocking that you try to maintain this prepsoterous nonsense and cannot even prove it, and yet we many verses to the contrary why?
You as an individual are free to follow your path, dont care, but dont tell me that caste is hereditary when you have no basic versese proof..
Now cmon , as asked before show clear verses cmon.

dogra
28 May 2013, 07:02 AM
I guess no answer is forthcoming....


oh dear, i have other things in life, and will respond when i feel like, and be sure i will respond even if away for a week or whatever time.
If your life is here then so be it, but do not assume i am same as you, i am an individual just as you.

dogra
28 May 2013, 07:05 AM
Bravo agniveer:
http://agniveer.com/sacred-threadof-pakistani-dalit-hindus/


But today was a historic day for two reasons. These Hindus that, unfortunately, are called as ‘Dalits’, who were denied rights of practicing their religion by fanatics, who were denied rights of performing rituals, performed Yajna after taking Yajnopaveet (Sacred Thread) and broke stupid notions of casteism. They defied slavery of hundreds of years and now vowed to live a free and dignified life henceforth. All of them resolved to leave meat, alcohol, addiction, smoking, gambling and follow examples like Ram, Krishna, Hanuman and Dayanand. They also resolved to become Vedic role models to attract entire world to Vedas. They took oath of avenging tortures on them in last 65 years in Pakistan by spreading Peace, tolerance and showcasing why they love Hinduism, why they live for Hinduism and why they can die for Hinduism.
Today’s event was a slap in the face of those who believe that women and ‘lower caste’ people cant perform Yajna or cant have Yajnopaveet/Janeu. Yajnopaveets were distributed to all regardless of caste and gender. And Agniveer is committed to spearhead this crusade against caste and gender inequality till it ends.

till it ends, take heed!!

dogra
28 May 2013, 07:10 AM
The alliance for Hindu organisations have well verses pandits.

jignyAsu
28 May 2013, 08:54 AM
Bravo agniveer:
http://agniveer.com/sacred-threadof-pakistani-dalit-hindus/

till it ends, take heed!!

They can't be serious! I don't understand how sacred thread being for men only is a crusade against women.

None of the Hindu ladies since ages have ever taken it this way. Isn't Agniveer going way too far with this?

Both men and women are special and have special status in our Vedic religion and they cannot replace each other. We don't have to force equal customs on them to prove their importance. The Vedic mantras and rituals will stop working (at best) if we do not follow the tradition properly.

And who are we trying to prove all this to?

philosoraptor
28 May 2013, 02:32 PM
They can't be serious! I don't understand how sacred thread being for men only is a crusade against women.

None of the Hindu ladies since ages have ever taken it this way. Isn't Agniveer going way too far with this?

Both men and women are special and have special status in our Vedic religion and they cannot replace each other. We don't have to force equal customs on them to prove their importance. The Vedic mantras and rituals will stop working (at best) if we do not follow the tradition properly.

And who are we trying to prove all this to?

Agniveer is full of garbage like this, all based on the premise that Western values = good and Indian values = discrimination. Actually, they say that our values are not what they are. Rather, they believe we were always equal, never had any hereditary class system, never had differentiation based on gender. According to Agniveer, Sri Krishna having 16,108 wives is false. I think they have a problem with His rasa-lila also.

As you can see from my attempts to engage dogra in conversation, trivial things like facts are not going to stop them from making these sorts of wild, bizarre claims. It doesn't matter how much scripture you read, or how much sadhana you perform. If you oppose Agniveer and the revisionists, they will label you as "anti-Hindu." This is the future of Hinduism, with masses of non-practicing, ignorant people who happen to be Hindu by accident of birth, bullying learned pandits and other practitioners into silence and submission.

Ganeshprasad
28 May 2013, 04:05 PM
Pranam
what i have to say is not meant as an insult to newly convert to this beautiful faith, i have no answer to those who may ask but what is my Varna? to them i would say what need is there to adopt one, either through one sadhna one would get Moksa (what could be better then that) or the next birth with guna karma assimilated one would get a birth appropriate.

Respect and dignity to all Hindus and Varna it never is meant to be discriminatory, unfortunately with onset of Kali yuga, the foreign power and Brits in particular (the biggest class conscious on earth) has truly poisoned our mind, varna should never be viewed as shameful, and going against tradition spells disaster. those who think birth is an accident without built in Guna and Karma are missing the point. those who think that one can choose the varna off their choice are kidding them self, even more are those who think they can change their varna at whim are deluded unless off course they have resolve of Vishvamitra. it is suffice to say the 16 sanskaras begins even before conception, all those up to the age when the child has to be trained in their respective varna can not be determined without the linage one is born in to. If anyone has a better answer to these few first Sanskaras i like to hear that.




If you oppose Agniveer and the revisionists, they will label you as "anti-Hindu." This is the future of Hinduism, with masses of non-practicing, ignorant people who happen to be Hindu by accident of birth, bullying learned pandits and other practitioners into silence and submission.

vast majority of hindus would not have heard of Agniveer or revisionist. Even today vast majority of Hindus abide by their Varna or at least recognise their Kula Jati they are born in to. No one is born by accident, of all people, the one who champions the cause of Varna by hereditary birth right, would know that i would have thought.
problem is we are all lumped together as Neo simply because a lot of us do not follow the same brand as you do.

talk about building a straw man, one who live in a glass house should not throw stones.

Jai Shree Krishna

Seeker
28 May 2013, 04:48 PM
Namaste GP Ji,

Wise words and balanced perspective.

My 2 cents - Moksha - the highest goal in Hinudism - is attainable by anyone irrespective of ones caste ,race, gender or varna. If so, why care about all this discussion which seem part political and part egocentric?

Ganeshprasad
28 May 2013, 05:33 PM
Pranam Seeker ji


Namaste GP Ji,

---If so, why care about all this discussion which seem part political and part egocentric?

In the final analysis nothing else matters but to seek that truth, just as lord Krishna says in bg15.3/4 with weapon of detachment one must seek that place from which there is no return.

But I truly believe that Varnashram is a tradition vastly misunderstood, when in its pristine state it is a perfect order where everyone can live in peace and harmony. Just as this body behaves in harmony so would this society when the goal is the same.

Jai Shree Krishna

ShivaFan
28 May 2013, 06:01 PM
Namaste Ganeshprashad.


Ganeshprashad: Varna it never is meant to be discriminatory, unfortunately with onset of Kali yuga, the foreign power and Brits in particular (the biggest class conscious on earth) has truly poisoned our mind

Your balanced approach is much appreciated. As a Westerner, I find the clarity and balance knowlegable.

I don't mean to get off subject since this post is about the current UK law and it's potential impact to private temples who wish to hire qualified Brahmins as pujaris, but I am interested in your perspective on something taught to me on varna.

I am taught that if you come from outside of a varna, but your qualities are rewarded with the opportunity to be adopted into Hinduism by an authorized teacher or Guru and it's Sampradaya, then you are also in effect adopted into the varna of the teacher, you also have the option not to be that varna and have no varna but are a Hindu.

For example, a Guru of an authorized Sampradaya is a Brahmin and takes a Westerner into the Sampradaya who takes the rituals, rites of stages in life and so on. This Westerner can then be adopted into the varna of the Guru. Also, the nature of the adoptee may not be inclined to be, for example, a Brahmin or a priest, has no desire to be a pujari in a temple no matter the varna of the Guru, and remain considered for example a grihasta but no varna title at all and is a Hindu.

As a Westerner, I have no desire to be a Brahmin priest, zero desire. In fact, I would argue hardly any Western Hindus have any such idea. Certainly there are a few, but these are always those who take diksha from Guru in the vow of sannyasi.

Om Namah Sivaya

philosoraptor
28 May 2013, 06:15 PM
Namaste GP Ji,

Wise words and balanced perspective.

My 2 cents - Moksha - the highest goal in Hinudism - is attainable by anyone irrespective of ones caste ,race, gender or varna. If so, why care about all this discussion which seem part political and part egocentric?

That isn't your 2 cents - it's the opinion of shAstra, and has explicit support in the bhAgavata and viShNu purANa-s. In fact, in one of the concluding chapters of the viShNu purANa, shrI vedavyAsa is quoted as saying that in kali-yuga, women and shUdra-s are particularly at an advantage in seeking mokSha because, due to the simpler nature of their duties, transgressions are far less likely. This is in contrast to twice-born males who have to perform sandhya-vandanam very strictly, for example, and are likely to commit all sorts of unintended offenses if they have not been properly trained.

Note that saying that all varNa-s are eligible for mokSha is not the same thing as saying that anyone can be a brahmin regardless of birth. The point is, the path to mokSha is not the exclusive domain of brahmins. But, for a society to be able to exist and work towards mokSha, there are those who have to be committed to taking care of its spiritual needs, and hence the need for brahmins.

So why all this discussion? Unfortunately, there are those who like to stick to factual truth, and those who are attached to ideological truth. In the latter category are those Western-educated Hindus who see Hindu culture through a Western lens. They see birth-based varNa-s as ipso facto discriminatory, evil, and exploitive, and since they have insecurity about that (since people in the West do not approve), they try to argue that Hinduism never had birth-based varNa, that men and women were equal, etc etc.

The reality is that social hierarchy was very much a fact of ancient Hindu culture and is readily apparent to anyone who reads (scriptures, not websites). What is also apparent is a culture of inclusion and compassion for all - ancient Hindus did not revel in exploiting people because of their caste, and the draconian punishments prescribed for non-dvijas do not appear to have been the social norm before kali-yuga. Rama embraced Guha who was a Nishaada and took food-offering from Shabari, a mere servant-woman. Both Prahlaad and Vibhiishana got the blessings of The Lord despite their birth in the demonic dynasty. Nanda and Vasudeva were friends who freely embraced despite their different castes. Narada got the Lord's blessings in a previous birth in spite of being the son of a servant woman. Dasharatha was cursed by a rishi who was a vaishya, and whose wife was a shuudra. That they were not brahmins did not diminish his guilt in slaying their son. There are numerous examples of yagnas attended by members of all four varNa-s. I could go on and on, but the point here is that those who see hierarchy in Hinduism as equal to one caste freely exploiting the others, are not seeing properly.

It is also obvious to people who aren't looking at the world through rose-colored glasses, that social hierarchy is everywhere in the human world, even in free societies in which the "equality" of all people is stressed. Is it unjust for a social system to prescribe different training and different roles based on one's birth, recognizing that birth is temporary and that people can move from one birth to another, with the implicit acknowledgement that one's self-worth ultimately transcends the body? Or is it more unjust for a person's self worth to be measured by his material possessions, independent of any virtues he or she may have? What does it say about a society's values when people idolize the rich and the powerful, as opposed to the austere and the virtuous?

The revisionists want Hindu people to have a society that is more like the West, where money talks and people who are connected get what they want at the expense of others. Personally, I would prefer that Hindus followed their scriptures, both the letter of the law as well as the spirit behind them.

philosoraptor
28 May 2013, 06:23 PM
To the above, I forgot to add this one point. And that is that the main beneficiaries of the incorrectly-en-vogue, "varNa-not-by-birth-but-by-aptitude" theory are primarily the Westernized, materialistic brahmins who want to enter secular occupations and don't want to feel obligated to do spiritual duties. Why wake up during the brahma-muhurta, study shAstra and do sandhya-vandanam when you can just sleep in and argue that you aren't qualified to be a brahmin? This is frankly, a far more abominable situation than one in which secular brahmins acknowledged their duties and tried to perform them, if even only imperfectly. More recognition of one's hereditary duties and one's inability to perform them perfectly would give Hindu brahmins a powerful dose of humility, one which making thousands of dollars as IT professional or doctor never will.

Any philosophy that teaches one to renounce his hereditary varNa is just rationalizing laziness.

TrikonaBindu
28 May 2013, 07:08 PM
But I truly believe that Varnashram is a tradition vastly misunderstood, when in its pristine state it is a perfect order where everyone can live in peace and harmony. Just as this body behaves in harmony so would this society when the goal is the same.

Namaskaram to all.

Rig-Veda concludes sam gacchadhvam sam vadadhvam sam vo manaamasi, jaanataam (O people, walk together, speak together, know one another’s mind).

If this is Satya yuga, such words will not fall on deaf ears. It will be possible, if this is Satya Yuga, to organize ourselves in such a way that society becomes as harmonious as the natural processes of the body.

However, if Lord’s creation entails the succession of ages, how in this Kali Yuga will it happen that society adopts any plan, including Varnashrama plan, that enables people to live together in peace?

Pranam

ShivaFan
28 May 2013, 07:55 PM
Namaste

I am noticing sometimes a criticism of a brahmin who, for example, is an IT genius, or electrical or space engineer for example, as if they have abandoned pujari work in the temple and their duty to be a priest of Hinduism, who have abandoned the need to memorize large numbers of scriptural sacred texts of their respective Sampradaya, and who might be criticized for making, earning and creating millions of dollars of creative production.

Certainly, if such a brahmin who carries the mantel of such Seva to the Devatas and the community of Hindus gpes out and opens a race track for wagering or betting on horse races (gambling) and where patrons can bet on "who will win" or place or show while drinking beer and eating beef hotdogs to the profit of the brahmin race track owner, certainly this is not good. In fact one can argue such a brahmin is no longer a brahmin at all.

I am an advocate of Hindus being the first to raise a Murti or other divine example to the glory of Hinduism on the planet moon. Some religion is going to be the "first", it certainly will have an impact on the consciousness of the entire material world, and do not think this inevitable event is that far away, as I mentioned in another post there are already rich Jains who are foreseeing this and making plans to make it come true and raise a large murti of a Jain arhant on the planet moon.

Do you want that first "religious" structure or "symbol" on the planet moon to be a cross?

A brahmin can have the scientific and engineering skills, the innovation and money, to help make such a statement on behalf of Hindu glory to come true, and also by the way not only memorize thousands of mathematical formulas and interactions of chemistry and time dimension, but also memorize all the sacred texts, and absolutely use practical application of such skill and innovation to the duty of seva to Devatas, puja, the Hindu community, raise lots of money in the process to fund the way of Hinduism, and fulfill the duty of what we see as a brahmin to society and as an advisor to men.

There are some brahmins who can chew gum and walk at the same time.

Now of course you can also have what some might call a "lazy brahmin". One who might simply just fall into a routine of doing a puja at the evening arti and then ask after "what's for dinner?" and know by heart a couple of religious verses (probably related to how great is he, the brahmin). But we might not be so impressed with the lazy brahmin. We might be more impressed with the genius brahmin who goes to the moon and in the seva of the glory of Hinduism not only help create the mindset to raise the first "religious edifice" on the moon, but be the very priest to offer a flower to that Lingam, that Murti, the Om symbol, even an "edifice" visible in light from the moon to the human eye of those on earth.

Once there was a temple on the eastern shore of India. A great tower stood as part of the edifice to that Hindu temple. At the top of the tower, a flame would burn and like a light house the light could be seen hundreds of miles out in the sea.
Then the muslims came.

There are many reasons to admire innovation and ability, one day you will have a need for it perhaps, and see the great value. It may change everything. A brahmin can be that one.

Om Namah Sivaya

philosoraptor
28 May 2013, 08:32 PM
Namaste

I am noticing sometimes a criticism of a brahmin who, for example, is an IT genius, or electrical or space engineer for example, as if they have abandoned pujari work in the temple and their duty to be a priest of Hinduism, who have abandoned the need to memorize large numbers of scriptural sacred texts of their respective Sampradaya, and who might be criticized for making, earning and creating millions of dollars of creative production.

Pranams,

Yes, Shivafan, as silly as you think it is, it is indeed the case that memorizing shruti and doing puja are two of the prescribed duties for brahmins. Now, my point earlier, is that if brahmins must be engaged in unprescribed duties (which is the social reality today, and not one that is unheard of in scripture, which also acknowledges this possibility), then still that is no reason to give up on studying scripture and having a saadhana. Instead of giving up these things because they are not "practical," we would all be better off if brahmins (and indeed all other Hindus), could find some time in the day to devote to these things. When you consider that the average brahmin in the West has access to television, video games, and other forms of recreation, I think we can logically conclude that the idea that he has "no time" for prescribed duties is false.

There is always time for things that are important. But the neo-Hindu philosophy, which divorces one's prescribed duties from one's birth, teaches these cosmopolitan brahmins that they are not at fault, so long as they don't self-identify as brahmins. It's nothing more than rationalizing laziness.

ShivaFan
28 May 2013, 09:31 PM
Namaste Philosoraptor



The entire thrust of my post is a brahmin can do both duties and also be a giant in innovation and apply such skills to further the glory of Hinduism. Do not limit OUR culture, please.

Om Namah Sivaya

dogra
29 May 2013, 07:00 AM
They can't be serious! I don't understand how sacred thread being for men only is a crusade against women.

None of the Hindu ladies since ages have ever taken it this way. Isn't Agniveer going way too far with this?

Both men and women are special and have special status in our Vedic religion and they cannot replace each other. We don't have to force equal customs on them to prove their importance. The Vedic mantras and rituals will stop working (at best) if we do not follow the tradition properly.

And who are we trying to prove all this to?

No Agniveer is quite right, we must move to remove cultural malpractices that have no sanction in beautiful faith of sanatan dharma.
Agniveer team have translated the vedas.
Society is corrupted through social evil of caste, this must be defeated, mistreating of our fellow human beings, they are spiritually equal.
In an office you have director, middle managers, secretaries and cleaners, now just because cleaners receive lowest pay, does not make them 'lower' as their function is a necessity for office to function, and this is what Hindu scriptures state, work together, talk together its all there in black and white,

dogra
29 May 2013, 07:06 AM
If you oppose Agniveer and the revisionists, they will label you as "anti-Hindu." This is the future of Hinduism, with masses of non-practicing, ignorant people who happen to be Hindu by accident of birth, bullying learned pandits and other practitioners into silence and submission.

Here we have an individual philosablah blah blah, who :
1) tells me personally where i received my knowledge, on hinduism, such pathetic arrogance is shocking, can this individual read my mind? anS: NO NO NO.
Personally spoken to well versed people of vedas and they agree, All alliance of hindu organisations is not a hollow organisation, it has well versed pandit who do not subscribe to birth based caste
2) this chappie philoso then makes ludricous claims as above, where he has been bullying from his personal attacks, or why personalise.
3) Future is where the truth of the beauty of sanatan dharma finds people, where people internalise the truth.
4) It is not for us to malign individuals if that is what people want to believe, that is their fair choice, we simply do not share same opinion. We have right of reply to personal attacks and can respond back,

dogra
29 May 2013, 07:17 AM
Namaste GP Ji,

Wise words and balanced perspective.

My 2 cents - Moksha - the highest goal in Hinudism - is attainable by anyone irrespective of ones caste ,race, gender or varna. If so, why care about all this discussion which seem part political and part egocentric?

Yes, Moksha, the highest goal, but only if an individual lives a dharmic life ie free from discrimiantion and acceptance of our fellow human beings, not saying just because they born to a teacher, they must be teacher, not saying just because they are born to cleaner, they become cleaner, this is social evil of caste, condemning people when they do not know their abilities.
Lord krishna advises to carry out duties where their personal nature fits, this will not always be same as parent. So how can there be birth based compete nonsense , 100% children will not be same profession as parent, there are different professions taken up by children according to their free choice. There is no caste iron rule, people are free to make their choices of profession.

Omkara
29 May 2013, 07:20 AM
No Agniveer is quite right, we must move to remove cultural malpractices that have no sanction in beautiful faith of sanatan dharma.
Agniveer team have translated the vedas.
Society is corrupted through social evil of caste, this must be defeated, mistreating of our fellow human beings, they are spiritually equal.
In an office you have director, middle managers, secretaries and cleaners, now just because cleaners receive lowest pay, does not make them 'lower' as their function is a necessity for office to function, and this is what Hindu scriptures state, work together, talk together its all there in black and white,

What does this have to do with the right to women to learn the vedas and wear the sacred thread? Traditionally they are allowed to do neither of these things. Then why do we have women as seers for various vedic verses? And why do we have examples of women like Gargi and Maitreyi in the upanishads who were well versed in vedic wisdom? Other acharyas have not addressed this issue but Sri Madhvacharya has in his Brahma Sutra Bhashya. He says that upanayanam is the pre requisite for vedic learning. While upanayanam is not allowed for women, the marriage ceremony is an equivalent ceremony and married women can learn the shruti from their husbands taking their husbands as gurus.

philosoraptor
29 May 2013, 08:49 AM
they become cleaner, this is social evil of caste, condemning people when they do not know their abilities.


No, that is merely your perception of caste. Caste as described in shruti and smRiti does not involve "condemning" anyone.

Ganeshprasad
29 May 2013, 09:52 AM
Pranam TrikonaBindu


---
However, if Lord’s creation entails the succession of ages, how in this Kali Yuga will it happen that society adopts any plan, including Varnashrama plan, that enables people to live together in peace?

Pranam






How indeed! what future holds and what are his plans we do not know.
this Kali yuga is in it infancy.from what i read in Puranas and other ithihas there is so much worse to come.
subjugated for over thousand year, ridiculed scorned upon and despite their best effort we remain intact is a testimony to our Varnashram Dharma, bettered and bruised, with Gurukul system all but destroyed spells danger not from those adversary but from within, there is a danger we will internally combust.

in Ramcharitra manas in the utar khand section Kak Bhusandi is narrating Kali yuga of previous age to Garuda, it paints a horrific picture but it also has it merit as Tulasidas says off all the impurities and hypocrisy of Kali yuga there is one redeeming Guna by which final emancipation is possible very easily, by chanting the Rams name and guna.

Jai Shree Krishna

TrikonaBindu
29 May 2013, 10:20 AM
In Ramcharitra manas in the utar khand section Kak Bhusandi is narrating Kali yuga of previous age to Garuda, it paints a horrific picture but it also has it merit as Tulasidas says off all the impurities and hypocrisy of Kali yuga there is one redeeming Guna by which final emancipation is possible very easily, by chanting the Rams name and guna.


Namaskaram Ganeshprasadji.

I have heard the same from many gurus, including my own. In such an age to save oneself, the best course is resort to the Holy Name.

Pranam.

ShivaFan
29 May 2013, 10:25 AM
Namaste Philosoraptor

Excuse me, do not misquote me out of context in your trolling for attacks on Hindu members of the forum.

The paragraph that has those words in my post are below, and has nothing to do with your claim of condescending remarks about brahmins who "memorize large numbers of scriptural sacred texts," - your mode of operation is in itself condensending to millions of Hindus who do not, nor will be forced to, follow your Sampradaya or what you claim is representing it in your demeanor and frankly over reach.

My opinion, and observation, that there are brahmins who can have the scientific and engineering skills, the innovation and money, to further Dharma in the duty of Hindu glory, and also by the way not only memorize thousands of mathematical formula but also memorize all the sacred text, capable of both abilities and apply them in the seva to fellow Hindus and the Divine duty, has nothing to do with condescending anything.

Do not use me and misquote me as part of your agenda to malign other Hindus who are taught other than you.

Today I think of Sri Vishwakarma, the eminent architect, engineer and artisan of the Divine. Jai Tulsidas.

Om Namah Sivaya

------------------------------
I am noticing sometimes a criticism of a brahmin who, for example, is an IT genius, or electrical or space engineer for example, as if they have abandoned pujari work in the temple and their duty to be a priest of Hinduism, who have abandoned the need to memorize large numbers of scriptural sacred texts of their respective Sampradaya, and who might be criticized for making, earning and creating millions of dollars of creative production.

A brahmin can have the scientific and engineering skills, the innovation and money, to help make such a statement on behalf of Hindu glory to come true, and also by the way not only memorize thousands of mathematical formulas and interactions of chemistry and time dimension, but also memorize all the sacred texts, and absolutely use practical application of such skill and innovation to the duty of seva to Devatas, puja, the Hindu community, raise lots of money in the process to fund the way of Hinduism, and fulfill the duty of what we see as a brahmin to society and as an advisor to men.

philosoraptor
29 May 2013, 11:45 AM
Excuse me, do not misquote me out of context in your trolling for attacks on Hindu members of the forum.

There is no need. You provided the context quite amply. You've made your views on Manu-smRiti and hereditary caste system clear, as well as your view that those who disagree with you on these issues are "racist" or "caste-centric."



My opinion, and observation, that there are brahmins who can have the scientific and engineering skills, the innovation and money, to further Dharma in the duty of Hindu glory, and also by the way not only memorize thousands of mathematical formula but also memorize all the sacred text, capable of both abilities and apply them in the seva to fellow Hindus and the Divine duty,

And I never claimed otherwise. As usual, you are just knocking down strawmen. It happens when you read only what you want to see and not what is actually there.

regards,

ShivaFan
29 May 2013, 01:52 PM
Namaste Philosoraptor

Again, Manu Smriti? It says to cut the tongue out of a "shudra" if he "insults" a brahmin, to take an iron nail, ten fingers, which shouldl be thrust red hot into his mouth. I really don't care about what it says, in this or that version of the many addendums to such "Law Book(s)" of which might contain some actual sacred verses in it but it has interpolations and is a "law manual" (funny, the word Manu is in manual) to a particular time and not sacred, there are actual sacred texts I can enjoy learning from so I don't need the "Laws of Manu" (funny).

But this reminds me to step back into the original context of this thread on the UK law, which I would not have bothered to promote such a law like this in the US since I thought it isn't necessary, but now reading some of the throwbacks to Manu I am reconsidering, and may actively contact Hindu rights organizations in the US and politicians regarding exploring this possibility since there may be a need for like legislation here in the United States.

Om Namah Sivaya

TrikonaBindu
29 May 2013, 04:38 PM
I would not have bothered to promote such a law like this in the US since I thought it isn't necessary, but now reading some of the throwbacks to Manu I am reconsidering, and may actively contact Hindu rights organizations in the US and politicians regarding exploring this possibility since there may be a need for like legislation here in the United States

Namaskaram to all.

Caste discrimination and harassment was not explicitly covered in British anti-discrimination law. It was believed at first that such legislation was unnecessary. Then they did the research.... https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/85521/caste-discrimination-summary.pdf

This legislation sets a precedent, sensitizing other nations and also the United Nations. If incidents of caste-based harassment accumulate, the time may come in other nations, including the United States, when research is undertaken to estimate the impact of caste discrimination on work, education, and the supply of goods and services.

Pranam.

philosoraptor
29 May 2013, 05:40 PM
Again, Manu Smriti? It says to cut the tongue out of a "shudra" if he "insults" a brahmin, to take an iron nail, ten fingers, which shouldl be thrust red hot into his mouth. I really don't care about what it says, in this or that version of the many addendums to such "Law Book(s)" of which might contain some actual sacred verses in it but it has interpolations and is a "law manual" (funny, the word Manu is in manual) to a particular time and not sacred, there are actual sacred texts I can enjoy learning from so I don't need the "Laws of Manu" (funny).

Well, there you go again with the condescension and strawman attacks.

First of all, it is by no means clear that the draconian punishments mentioned in Manu are part of the original version of the same. Manu is mentioned or alluded to in several purANas, none of which describe any events of "low-caste" people being punished in such a manner. If the text is interpolated, this is no reflection on Manu or its original authority. It just indicates that its authority is a dependent one. I believe I made this quite clear, and I'm not sure why you are continuing to behave as if defending its (dependent) authenticity implies endorsing draconian punishment. I guess that's what you do when you just feel the need to argue and feel self-righteous.

Like it or not, and feel free as usual to ignore what I am about to tell you here, but Manu-smriti is referenced several times in the Ramayana of Valmiki as a standard authority on determining right conduct. We cannot on one hand, call ourselves honest people, and then on the other hand, discount Manu's role in formulating the culture of dharma when the ideal purusha Himself repeatedly quoted it to make His determinations of what is and is not right. Again, please note here, in case it is still not clear to you, that Manu was quoted in the Ramayana on matters relating to duties of kings, husbands, wives, etc, and never in regards to draconian punishments. If Manu really wants people to drive nails into the tongues of shudras, then why does Rama quote him on dharma? Would Rama accept someone as an authority on some matters of dharma when that same authority endorses torturing people elsewhere? Does that make sense to you? Really? Think about it....



But this reminds me to step back into the original context of this thread on the UK law, which I would not have bothered to promote such a law like this in the US since I thought it isn't necessary, but now reading some of the throwbacks to Manu I am reconsidering, and may actively contact Hindu rights organizations in the US and politicians regarding exploring this possibility since there may be a need for like legislation here in the United States.

Om Namah Sivaya

This is an asinine response. You are still not grasping the point, and are going off onto hysterical tangents that have nothing to do with anything. If I quote Manu to say that husbands should keep their wives happy, and that yagnas bear no fruit in those households in which women are mistreated, are you going to call Hindu rights organizations and tattle on me for it? Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds?

dogra
30 May 2013, 06:50 AM
What does this have to do with the right to women to learn the vedas and wear the sacred thread? Traditionally they are allowed to do neither of these things. Then why do we have women as seers for various vedic verses? And why do we have examples of women like Gargi and Maitreyi in the upanishads who were well versed in vedic wisdom? Other acharyas have not addressed this issue but Sri Madhvacharya has in his Brahma Sutra Bhashya. He says that upanayanam is the pre requisite for vedic learning. While upanayanam is not allowed for women, the marriage ceremony is an equivalent ceremony and married women can learn the shruti from their husbands taking their husbands as gurus.

Traditionally who is anyoen to deny women to do these, why do we have powerfule female forms of God, tell Kali ma she cannot do, tell Shakti she cannot do, tell Durga mata she cannot do.
Examples are there for clear gender equality enshrined in Hindu texts, Bravo Agniveer.
Now:
http://www.ivarta.com/columns/ol_070503.htm

The Vedic period was glorified by the tradition. Many rishis were women. Indeed several of them authored many of the slokas in the Vedas. For instance in the Rigveda there is a list of women rishis. Some of these names are: Ghoshsha, Godha, Vishwawra, Apala, Upanishad, Brahmjaya, Aditi, Indrani, Sarma, Romsha, Urvashi, Lopamudra, Yami, Shashwati, Sri, Laksha and many others. In the Vedic period women were free to enter into brahmacharya just as men and become sannyasin

dogra
30 May 2013, 06:54 AM
No, that is merely your perception of caste. Caste as described in shruti and smRiti does not involve "condemning" anyone.

Too right it does not, otherwise no Moksha, and contradicting humane verses in Hindu texts.
B.G 5.18 Lord Krishna advises to view different people with equal eye.

A woman and man produce another human being, this human being is an individual, he/she will through their personal development come to know what profession they so choose, each profession has dignity of labour, and worthy of respect, none higher none lower.
No one can tell another individual what to be just because of what family they come from, this is discrimination and such individuals will not gain Moksha.

dogra
30 May 2013, 07:03 AM
Manu has been used by anti hindu individuals to malign the hindu faith. There are questions over whether parts of Manu have been corrupted, and any verse not in line with Humane verses in Vedas are rejected, our conduct is advised to be Dharma, not adharma.

Here in UK, the law is very good, just look at Abu qatada, still he has not been deported as law stands firm.
Caste bill though passed, will be in fairness and proof required.
We want so called 'dalits' people to come together with us, as we see no differences between us, as God resides in hearts of all beings, and dignity of labour to all functions.

philosoraptor
30 May 2013, 07:58 AM
Dogra, do you feel it is important to provide evidence to back up your views, or should we just assume that anything you read on a website is correct, based solely on the fact that it has your seal of approval?

Please let us know. Because so far as I can see from our "discussions" with you, it appears that Vedas, Upanishads, Brahmanas, Aranyakas, Dharma-shasras, Puranas, and Itihasas are not the authority on Hinduism. Rather, the authority on Hinduism is whatever dogra posts, based on what he read from select websites. Anything that contradicts dogra can be ignored, even when it comes from the aforementioned scriptures.

philosoraptor
30 May 2013, 07:59 AM
Also, dogra, is it fair to assume that you are probably no more than 14 or 15 years old? Because that would explain a lot...

jignyAsu
30 May 2013, 08:20 AM
Traditionally who is anyoen to deny women to do these, why do we have powerfule female forms of God, tell Kali ma she cannot do, tell Shakti she cannot do, tell Durga mata she cannot do.
Examples are there for clear gender equality enshrined in Hindu texts, Bravo

Atleast as a starting point let us not equate differentiating to crusading. These kinds of judgements have been taught to us by outsiders.

Let those who refuse to see differences in gender or varna by birth atleast not think of those who believe in this as being evil, for a start. After all to none has Moksha and spiritual progress been denied. None is excluded from being a spiritual teacher nor is this varna of anyone claimed to be permanent. If one believes in rebirth and karma, then there is a possibility of classification by birth.

Our Rishis have given us a unequal prescription in order to acheive an equal destination. In our society, a father prescribes different rules to his son and daughter...but he wants them both to be happy. Let this not be constituted as being women suppression.

That B.G 5.18 verse talks about viewing not only different people with equal eye but also animals like elephant, cow etc. Surely this can't mean putting a sacred thread on a cow or a cat (not yet). This only means that ultimately we are the same ..but the differences is due to our karma and temporary.

Those people who are suggesting us to change the traditions, can they guarantee us if a sacred thread will continue to remain "sacred"? Do they know if the Vedic rituals will continue to work? Have they acheived a stable society? Is purity of thoughts being upheld?

In so many temples the Male deity is given a sacred thread and not the female deity. This surely does not mean that the Female deity is looked down upon. In fact there have been instances where the male deity has been looked down upon. :)

philosoraptor
30 May 2013, 09:11 AM
Atleast as a starting point let us not equate differentiating to crusading. These kinds of judgements have been taught to us by outsiders.

Let those who refuse to see differences in gender or varna by birth atleast not think of those who believe in this as being evil, for a start. After all to none has Moksha and spiritual progress been denied. None is excluded from being a spiritual teacher nor is this varna of anyone claimed to be permanent. If one believes in rebirth and karma, then there is a possibility of classification by birth.

Our Rishis have given us a unequal prescription in order to acheive an equal destination. In our society, a father prescribes different rules to his son and daughter...but he wants them both to be happy. Let this not be constituted as being women suppression.

That B.G 5.18 verse talks about viewing not only different people with equal eye but also animals like elephant, cow etc. Surely this can't mean putting a sacred thread on a cow or a cat (not yet). This only means that ultimately we are the same ..but the differences is due to our karma and temporary.

Those people who are suggesting us to change the traditions, can they guarantee us if a sacred thread will continue to remain "sacred"? Do they know if the Vedic rituals will continue to work? Have they acheived a stable society? Is purity of thoughts being upheld?

In so many temples the Male deity is given a sacred thread and not the female deity. This surely does not mean that the Female deity is looked down upon. In fact there have been instances where the male deity has been looked down upon. :)

Pranams, jignyasu.

There is a fatal flaw in the words you write above: they make sense.

This is why the revisionist crowd has no use for them.

And yes, when you extend dogra's arguments to their logical conclusion, it leads to the question, "Is it ok to bestow sacred thread on a cow?" If you believe what dogra says, then it should indeed be ok. After all, the humble sage sees with equal vision the brahmin, the candala, the cow, etc. While we're on that subject, why do men prefer to marry women? Remember: we have to see everyone with equal vision. There should be no problem with men marrying men and women marrying women. Or even humans marrying animals. We're all *equal* remember? Gita 5.19 says so!

Intelligent people recognize that untenable conclusions extrapolated from bad arguments imply that the arguments themselves are flawed.

jignyAsu
30 May 2013, 11:07 AM
This is why the revisionist crowd has no use for them.


These are but our own....including the Hindus in Agniveer. I am afraid, though of the increasing influence of western opinions of right or wrong on us. I think you too are bothered about the same thing.

For e.g. people are already looking upon child beating as a child abuse. Few generations down the line, it will be impossible to convince anyone about the difference. Not that I think beating should continue but when people start to look upon it as an evil then some (not all) of our society practices comes into question. How will Mother Yashoda running behind the child Krishna with a stick be looked upon a few generations from now? There will be perhaps be some group then trying to redefine stick as being symbolic etc. All this is unnecessary as the bonding of children and parents is much more in our society than anywhere else.

I think that there is a need for Hindus, especially those born in western countries, to understand that discrimination in our Hindu society based on Varna, gender etc. is not evil as they are being projected these days. They may or may not accept this discrimination.

philosoraptor
30 May 2013, 03:47 PM
Pranams,

Yes, they are "our own" people, sadly. Despite their ignorance and Westernized conditioning, what they say will reflect on all of us, and that is why we should be concerned.

I've see this happen many, many, many times before, where some angry-but-uneducated Hindus will start a commotion, dogra style, with Westerners who are making unflattering remarks about Hinduism (sometimes real, sometimes imagined), and end up making things worse. Especially when they come face-to-face with academics, as they did in the California school textbook debate (which should have been an easy win for Hinduism on the grounds of discrimination), they have a tendency to spew self-defeating, revisionist propaganda which ends up working against us when academics call it out for what it is. This has resulted in multiple failures to revise the Hinduism curriculum according to the same scholarly standards reserved for the treatment of other religions. Even if we look solely at those who self-identify as Hindus, the attitudes of these Western diaspora towards their own traditions is pathetic. This is even among those who claim they are "proud" of their "Hinduism." They almost all regard caste as an evil thing and criticize it with wild abandon, not realizing that the preservation of our scriptures, and indeed, of much of our culture, is the legacy of hereditary brahmins. They even reject any scripture which talks of caste, so in their view you don't have to give much regard for any purana. Some of these people are quite fascinated with Krishna's "rasa-lila" and treat it as endorsing some kind of "progressive" attitude towards sex. When I politely explained based on the bhAgavatam to to one group of such people that the relations between the gopis and Krishna were on a spiritual platform and not to be confused with carnal lust, they became quite hostile to me. In other words, they were ok with believing that a beloved deity of Hinduism was a bigamist. On the other extreme are the Victorian-inspired sensibilities of the Agniveer.com folks, who claim that Krishna's rasa-lila and polygamy never happened. I guess we can't have that sort of thing because modern Christianity only allows you to have one spouse, and what would they say if they found about Sri Krishna? Not surprisingly, while these "hindus" have nothing but scornful remarks about people who believe in caste system (i.e. Ramanuja, Madhva, Shankara), they really think the world of Jesus and Mohammed and can't tolerate any Hindu criticizing them. Well, some of these diaspora will criticize the prophets, because in their mind having one supreme God is a bad thing and these prophets preached that. Good thing we don't have any of that Supreme God stuff in Hinduism! (sarcasm) Speaking of monotheism, I am reminded of a time when a Christian fundamentalist publicly criticized Hinduism because "You have so many gods, but not one to forgive you your sins." Sounds stupid, right? Here's what passed for an answer from the lay Hindu community, as published in the Himalayan Academy's then circulating newspaper editorial: "We Hindus are not lacking in gods, we have 33 million gods to chose from."

Sometimes I feel I can't roll my eyes anymore for fear that my extraocular muscles will become paralyzed. These and other incidents have shown me beyond a shadow of a doubt that Hindus can be their own worst enemies.

This is why I have tried time and time again to try to get people to think more deeply about what they say, and why they believe what they believe. The cause of Hinduism would be helped best if some of these self-identified Hindutva would spend more time reading their scriptures, instead of Westernizing them.

wundermonk
30 May 2013, 10:18 PM
I think that there is a need for Hindus, especially those born in western countries, to understand that discrimination in our Hindu society based on Varna, gender etc. is not evil as they are being projected these days. They may or may not accept this discrimination.

I have a suggestion. Could you request any "shudra" friends of yours to come post on HDF and let them speak about the benefits of varna discrimination and how they are happy with it? This is, of course, assuming they have not already given up on temple worship and found their way to the nearest church or mosque.

The idea is that it is not for a bunch of South African "white guys" sitting on top of the pyramid to decide whether there is racism in South Africa or not. To decide whether there is racism in South Africa, should one not hear from "black guys"?

Believer
30 May 2013, 10:44 PM
Namaste,

Perhaps it is time to let go of this topic and find something else to milk?

The idea is that it is not for a bunch of South African "white guys" sitting on top of the pyramid to decide whether there is racism in South Africa or not. To decide whether there is racism in South Africa, should one not hear from "black guys"?
Does the talk of racism in South Africa in the forum come from personal experience, or is it generic comments based on what one reads in the paper and is enhanced by one's imagination? I was there about a year ago and although I don't pretend to be an expert on their country, I do try to cajole the natives of the lands I visit, to share some of their personal feelings. With that as the background, we could discuss racism in SA in a separate thread, if someone so desires. Getting steamed up about everything unjust that happens in the world, without translating that into some action with tangible results is just blowing hot air.

Pranam.

ShivaFan
31 May 2013, 12:52 AM
Namaste

  There was a crabby old guy who was the grandfather of a little girl, the girl was the sister of one of the boys who had gone on a horseback riding trip in the countryside sponsred by a bank for employees of the bank and their families.

  Apparently the old guy had given the little girl a new blue sweater.  

At the picnic as some were riding horses he was loud after drinking a couple of beers, carrying on how "children should be seen and not heard", and "a good swat will put the fear of God in them" and things like that.  

Then he sees the little girl picking up horse manure (poop) and she had wiped her hands on her blue sweater.  

Infuriated, seeing her from behind doing this, that she would do such a thing to the new sweater he bought her, he rolls up a "Field and Stream" magazine he was reading into a baton, comes up from behind the little girl and then swats her hard (SMACK!) on her behind with the rolled up magazine.    

The smack was loud, everyone turned to look, and even louder was the wailing and crying of the little girl for her mommy as she turned around in horror.  

When she turned around, that was when the crabby old guy saw it was not his grand-daughter.  

That's when a big strong man comes up to the crabby old man who now realizes his mistake, grabs the old guy by the arm half lifting him off the ground shouting, "What the (blank) do you think you are doing you old (blank), I'm going to bust you bottom" and proceeds to grab the magazine from the old guy's trembling hands and swats the old guy on his behind hard and right off his feet.  

The police come, and the old guy is taken in for assaulting a minor.  The actual father of the little girl, the girl still crying in the arms of her mother, was also taken in and shortly released without charges.  

The old guy however was charged with assaulting a minor.  

What an idiot.  

Om Namah Shivaya    

ShivaFan
31 May 2013, 02:45 AM
Namaste Philosoraptor

So let me understand, now you are attacking the Himalayan Academy? As well as all Hindus who have left India. As well as most Hindus who live in India who belong to a huge and diverse family of Hinduism. On and on you go, with the endless attacks on Hindus, I am beginning to think there is more in common with Islam propagandists and your demeanor than Hinduism. You have so many Hindus that you see as your enemy, you must be a very small minority indeed.

As far as laws regarding discrimination, crimes and violence against “shudras” and others who are not “your caste” (what caste are you exactly, by the way?), they are much more strict in India than “the West” (actually, the term West is becoming so boring – I have no idea, but perhaps you yourself live in the “West”, and exactly how can you even be alive for another minute being in the “West” considering?) - and soon to be even more strict with new legislation by the people and government of India. But you feel so strong about “punishing shudras”, words mean nothing, would you ever act on them? What do you think would happen if you did? What do you think would happen if you actually tried to apply “punishment” you see fit to my daughter for example? We hear a lot of talk about concern regarding government telling others how to raise or punish their children – but some of these same people want to be the very government by caste and in law to punish children who do not belong to them, and would do so in a draconian manner if given the power.

Everyone loves their children. And that is why, the tone which you have is concerning to everyone who has children.

By the way, it is my observation in India, that the preservation of Hinduism in the hearts of the people in the face of one assault after another is the women of countless villages all over India, in every home, and not some flamboyant exaggeration that it is the exclusive “legacy of hereditary Brahmins”.

I think this thread has already had enough of the edge to it. Put the tone to rest, please.

Om Namah Sivaya

dogra
31 May 2013, 04:34 AM
Philo here we go again with your pathetic personal attacks, it is really quite lame.
Have provided scriptures sources, you disapprove, now if you are a very learned person and an authority then let us know your qualifications.
As stated Alliance of Hindu organisations have learned scriptural people and we do not believe in birth based caste as per hindu scriptures, and have stated my case.
Now if u continue pathetic personal attacks I have right of defence and be sure will defend myself.
If you do not like the views I have expressed then so be it, you are free to believe in your interpretation and I mine, which I have stated with scriptural back up.
Now again can you provide clear scriptural injunction that states birth based caste, so that person borm to cleaner will also be a cleaner show this clear verse, for if there was birth based then it would be clearly stated.

dogra
31 May 2013, 04:35 AM
Also, dogra, is it fair to assume that you are probably no more than 14 or 15 years old? Because that would explain a lot...
ahh again the personal attacks, you clearly have a problem, when people express views not of your liking u engage personal attacks because you suffer mental torment right.....

dogra
31 May 2013, 04:42 AM
Atleast as a starting point let us not equate differentiating to crusading. These kinds of judgements have been taught to us by outsiders.

Let those who refuse to see differences in gender or varna by birth atleast not think of those who believe in this as being evil, for a start. After all to none has Moksha and spiritual progress been denied. None is excluded from being a spiritual teacher nor is this varna of anyone claimed to be permanent. If one believes in rebirth and karma, then there is a possibility of classification by birth.

Our Rishis have given us a unequal prescription in order to acheive an equal destination. In our society, a father prescribes different rules to his son and daughter...but he wants them both to be happy. Let this not be constituted as being women suppression.

That B.G 5.18 verse talks about viewing not only different people with equal eye but also animals like elephant, cow etc. Surely this can't mean putting a sacred thread on a cow or a cat (not yet). This only means that ultimately we are the same ..but the differences is due to our karma and temporary.

Those people who are suggesting us to change the traditions, can they guarantee us if a sacred thread will continue to remain "sacred"? Do they know if the Vedic rituals will continue to work? Have they acheived a stable society? Is purity of thoughts being upheld?

In so many temples the Male deity is given a sacred thread and not the female deity. This surely does not mean that the Female deity is looked down upon. In fact there have been instances where the male deity has been looked down upon. :)

We have been given a brain why? can you answer this question, so kindly understand, we have and as u agree with BG 5.18 with added animals as well, think you are getting bogged down in the actual sacred thread, though human beings know the difference animals do not, it is a case of removing the discriminations that exist in our society. The society is not very good is it, and why, how do we move to a more equitable society..

Women can be soldiers, do u disagree or not, women can carry out whatever profession they so choose, do u u agree or disagree.
U see people like philoso like to make arguments on behalf of others, common sense and brain needs applying.

dogra
31 May 2013, 04:47 AM
I have a suggestion. Could you request any "shudra" friends of yours to come post on HDF and let them speak about the benefits of varna discrimination and how they are happy with it? This is, of course, assuming they have not already given up on temple worship and found their way to the nearest church or mosque.

The idea is that it is not for a bunch of South African "white guys" sitting on top of the pyramid to decide whether there is racism in South Africa or not. To decide whether there is racism in South Africa, should one not hear from "black guys"?

Indeed you are quite right, and this is the problem.
Social evil of caste which condemns people, is very bad, do people not belonging to these groups not empathise with these people, do they think its fine they are downtrodden, abused mentally tortured, how would they like it if they were in their positions.
Most definitely our scriptures do not tell too behave like this, and have discussed with so called 'dalits' here in UK, and a number of them are professional like lawyers, doctors, accountants through their training and education and well done to them. A few other so called 'dalits' said they stopped going to temple because the pandit did not treat them same as others, I did try to explain that those specific pandits are wrong and other pandits do not behave this way as know from speaking to other pandits in my local area. This will take time to convince them of the beauty of sanatan dharma, but we are moving on these points-Alliance of Hindu organisations UK.

They are our fellow spiritually equal human beings as God resides in all as per Lord Krishna

Omkara
31 May 2013, 05:21 AM
Traditionally who is anyoen to deny women to do these, why do we have powerfule female forms of God, tell Kali ma she cannot do, tell Shakti she cannot do, tell Durga mata she cannot do.
Examples are there for clear gender equality enshrined in Hindu texts, Bravo Agniveer.
Now:
http://www.ivarta.com/columns/ol_070503.htm

I have explained how woman rishis owe their positions to their husbands. What part of my post did you not understand?

Omkara
31 May 2013, 05:22 AM
Women can be soldiers, do u disagree or not, women can carry out whatever profession they so choose, do u u agree or disagree.

Really? Then why did Bhishma refuse to attack Shikhandin? Why did no female soldiers fight in the Mahabharata?

wundermonk
31 May 2013, 06:29 AM
Women can be soldiers, do u disagree or not, women can carry out whatever profession they so choose, do u u agree or disagree.Really?

Yes. See picture below.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/images/Article35a.jpg

Now, assuming these fine ladies called themselves Hindus prior to becoming soldiers, have they forfeited the right to call themselves Hindu now?

For future reference, please also define who is a Hindu. Thanks.

dogra
31 May 2013, 06:34 AM
I have explaibed how woman rishis owe their positions to their husbands. What part of my post did you not understand?

Don't agree with your post, as clearly shown who tells Kali ma, who tells Durga Mata, who tells Shakti.
Women can be soldiers, who are you to say they cant, can Kali ma be told please don't fight, don't you see the contradiction between powerful female forms of god, and women not be able to fight.
Women can like men, be of whatever profession they so choose, u can disagree all you want, but society is moving.
Jai Kali ma!!

Kalicharan Tuvij
31 May 2013, 06:36 AM
Arre baba

Varna (way of works) was a Vedic urban construct. And when Varna was being transformed into the birth based (oh yeah), endogamic, caste system, still some Indians preferred their tribe identity over anything else.

An example is, in Mahabharata, Vasudeva was a kshatriya while his cousin (?) Nanda was just a villager. This shows that Varna related to urban professions. And also that the Yadus still preferred (oh yeah and they still today) their tribe identity even when castes became a norm. (I suppose OBC were not a caste then, were they?).

Oh yeah.
(report spam)

dogra
31 May 2013, 06:44 AM
https://www.facebook.com/HinduismWithoutCaste?fref=ts

No hereditary birth based caste in Hinduism scriptures.
Just think a cleaner's children must also be cleaners, force them , ahh, but then no Moksha, oops. No reconciliation as per usual

Omkara
31 May 2013, 07:35 AM
Yes. See picture below.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/images/Article35a.jpg

Now, assuming these fine ladies called themselves Hindus prior to becoming soldiers, have they forfeited the right to call themselves Hindu now?

For future reference, please also define who is a Hindu. Thanks.

Just because certain people choose to ignore scriptural regulations, it does not automatically follow that those scriptural regulations are false.

I note that neither you nor dogra addressed the point I made about Bhishma not attacking Shikhandin becaise women are not allowed in warfare.

dogra
31 May 2013, 07:51 AM
See u have not replied to the contradiction to Bhishma and Kali ma being a powerful female form of God, who is a destroyer. Can you show scriptural fact, cmon, can you explain why there is Kali ma a destroyer and women not being allowed to fight, can you.

http://agniveer.com/woman-hallmark-of-true-valor/

jignyAsu
31 May 2013, 08:02 AM
The idea is that it is not for a bunch of South African "white guys" sitting on top of the pyramid to decide whether there is racism in South Africa or not. To decide whether there is racism in South Africa, should one not hear from "black guys"?

Has a white guy of those times ever carried a black guy on his shoulders as a mark of respect for his knowledge? Has the white guy ever served food to the black guy, patiently waiting for the remains of the food as prasad? Has the Brahmins of the old talked about varna holding scotch on his left hand and hamburger on his right? If not the analogy is not apt but is being projected that way by anti hindus.

Our discrimination was a healthy one. We are indebted to the likes of Raja Ram mohan roy to have abolished the social evils which have nothing to do with our Puranas. I hate these socials evils and think they are alien to Hinduism as much as you do.




I have a suggestion. Could you request any "shudra" friends of yours to come post on HDF and let them speak about the benefits of varna discrimination and how they are happy with it? This is, of course, assuming they have not already given up on temple worship and found their way to the nearest church or mosque.


I don't go analyzing the caste of non Brahmins but I know 2 kinds of non Brahmins of which some could be shudras. One has truly understood these discriminations to be healthy and is only bothered about His way to moksha or doing some Bhakti. The second kind, which is increasing, think that they were hung upside down and beaten everyday, thanks to the influence of anti Hindus. To them we have to demonstrate with proof that discriminations were healthy only.

charitra
31 May 2013, 08:11 AM
Agree. Just so to erase the male ego perpetrated by a few orthodox hindus in ancient times, an entire samprdaya was nurtured by the many wise rishis of that era. The result as we can all see- a huge body of kali worshipping sampradayks swelling over the centuries. Not out of place here, the Vaishyas have developed another subsect and call it by name Kanyaka Parameswari, somewhat different from Durga, a woman deity nevertheless.

Hindus have never shied away from reforms and to introduce new ideas and practices. The neo thus metamorphoses into a tradition as many seasons change.
Sigh.That the orthodox gang ( thankfully only a tiny number on the HDF) has been already compared to 'klansman' and 'south African whites', they should ideally pause for a moment in self reflection, tone down their rhetoric and play down their pragmatism voluntarily, or else a casual onlooker may get a very wrong idea about their suffocating love of Hinduism, an entire community will get bad name. IMO they deserve a better place than that... Namaste.

See u have not replied to the contradiction to Bhishma and Kali ma being a powerful female form of God, who is a destroyer. Can you show scriptural fact, cmon, can you explain why there is Kali ma a destroyer and women not being allowed to fight, can you.

http://agniveer.com/woman-hallmark-of-true-valor/

jignyAsu
31 May 2013, 08:23 AM
Women can be soldiers, do u disagree or not, women can carry out whatever profession they so choose, do u u agree or disagree.


Please try to understand what is meant by healthy discrimination. Telling that women can't be soldiers is not women suppression. Those wonderful ladies in the pic that wundermonk has posted are very much Hindus if their heart says so. Only someone out of his mind will refuse Rani Lakshmibai as being a Hindu. The idea of giving such instructions is not to abandon anyone but to protect.

Our discrimination is a protective one. kshatriyas men would be ashamed seeing a lady having to come and fight. If a lady is on a battlefield, what is more honorable for a man to do? To gang up on her and shoot her or to die like Bhishma? If Rama hesitates to obey His Guru's orders to kill a demon that has devoured thousands of Rishis, just because she is a lady..is that women suppression? A lady as a Queen would participate in administration and even manage so many villages..that's not denied..but to see our own sisters in the battlefield should be painful to the heart.

Regarding women sanyasis. Let us reflect patiently on this. A sanyasi roams about all over Bharata not caring about his own life or means of survival. What will happen to the lady if she becomes a sanyasi and roams about without protection? Its not many days over since the Delhi incident. Is it very bad for Rishis to care about the females of society like their own daughters?

But at this age can we afford to talk to a lady in this fashion? Being a house wife has become shameful these days. A lady would retort - do you think of me as an uneducated useless lady? And yet raising kid is a very great responsibility..that builds the society. Vishwamitra praises Rama as "Kausalya supraja" - son of Kausalya and not son of Dasaratha.

dogra
31 May 2013, 08:30 AM
Please try to understand what is meant by healthy discrimination. Telling that women can't be soldiers is not women suppression. Those wonderful ladies in the pic that wundermonk has posted are very much Hindus if their heart says so. Only someone out of his mind will refuse Rani Lakshmibai as being a Hindu. The idea of giving such instructions is not to abandon anyone but to protect.

Our discrimination is a protective one. kshatriyas men would be ashamed seeing a lady having to come and fight. If a lady is on a battlefield, what is more honorable for a man to do? To gang up on her and shoot her or to die like Bhishma? If Rama hesitates to obey His Guru's orders to kill a demon that has devoured thousands of Rishis, just because she is a lady..is that women suppression? A lady as a Queen would participate in administration and even manage so many villages..that's not denied..but to see our own sisters in the battlefield should be painful to the heart.

Regarding women sanyasis. Let us reflect patiently on this. A sanyasi roams about all over Bharata not caring about his own life or means of survival. What will happen to the lady if she becomes a sanyasi and roams about without protection? Its not many days over since the Delhi incident. Is it very bad for Rishis to care about the females of society like their own daughters?

But at this age can we afford to talk to a lady in this fashion? Being a house wife has become shameful these days. A lady would retort - do you think of me as an uneducated useless lady? And yet raising kid is a very great responsibility..that builds the society. Vishwamitra praises Rama as "Kausalya supraja" - son of Kausalya and not son of Dasaratha.

Healthy discrimination, that's quite funny, and quite pathetic at the same time, we do not have the right to tell women they cannot fight, they have that right, and hence why we have powerful female forms of God. It is up to the individuals to decide, this is healthy, as any discrimination will not lead to Moksha.
Go and tell Kali ma she cannot be destroyer, go tell Durga Mata stay at home that women should know their place, how very dare indivuidals tell other individuals that they cannot choose their own profession e,g, Female warriors they have that fair right.
Jai Kali ma!

Omkara
31 May 2013, 08:44 AM
See u have not replied to the contradiction to Bhishma and Kali ma being a powerful female form of God, who is a destroyer. Can you show scriptural fact, cmon, can you explain why there is Kali ma a destroyer and women not being allowed to fight, can you.

http://agniveer.com/woman-hallmark-of-true-valor/

Can a human being lift a mountain on his little finger or drink poison? If Sri Krishna had 16,008 wives, does that mean we can do so? Do not use the doings of gods as justification for human behaviour.

dogra
31 May 2013, 08:49 AM
Can a human being lift a mountain on his little finger or drink poison? If Sri Krishna had 16,008 wives, does that mean we can do so? Do not use the doings of gods as justification for human behaviour.

Again can u explain why are there powerful female forms of God? why, why make as female, why if not to tell us clear gender equality.
We have been given a brain for a reason

ps leave Lord Krishna and 16008 wives for another topic as there those that believe those and those that don't.

wundermonk
31 May 2013, 09:44 AM
Just because certain people choose to ignore scriptural regulations, it does not automatically follow that those scriptural regulations are false.

So, which scriptural regulations are true and which are false? There are scriptural regulations of Jaimini that contradict those of Manu. Which should one follow?

BTW...which scriptural regulations do you follow?


I note that neither you nor dogra addressed the point I made about Bhishma not attacking Shikhandin becaise women are not allowed in warfare.

Sorry, but Bhishma took a personal call. Ashwathama took up battle with Shikhandin and killed him/her anyway.

Also, Bhishma's reasoning is suspect here. Bhishma recognizes Shikhandin as Amba (woman) from a previous birth and does not deliver a volley of arrows against her. But per Hindu philosophy, there is no male or female jiva. That is, male/female are limiting adjuncts upon the soul. In moksha, male or female is irrelevant since all limiting adjuncts are removed.

Now that I have answered these questions, I expect you to answer mine.

If a shudhra/brahmin/woman becomes a soldier, do they become a kshatriya or do they become non-Hindu? Do they retain their birth varna? What happens exactly? Focus like a laser beam and answer precisely.

You can "note" stuff till kingdom come but that does not help move the discourse forward.

wundermonk
31 May 2013, 09:48 AM
Our discrimination was a healthy one.

What discrimination are you referring to? Please give examples.


I don't go analyzing the caste of non Brahmins but I know 2 kinds of non Brahmins of which some could be shudras. One has truly understood these discriminations to be healthy and is only bothered about His way to moksha or doing some Bhakti.

What discrimination are you referring to that this kind of Shudhra has understood to be healthy?


The second kind, which is increasing, think that they were hung upside down and beaten everyday, thanks to the influence of anti Hindus. To them we have to demonstrate with proof that discriminations were healthy only.

Yes, please demonstrate with proof that discriminations are healthy.

satay
31 May 2013, 09:57 AM
Admin Note

Please feel free to knock yourself out in this Jalpa forum.

Ganeshprasad
31 May 2013, 10:05 AM
Pranam


I must say this all issue has gotten out of hand. a lot of emotion without proper logic how can we compare Devi shakti with humans?

how can anyone begin to compare Maa Kali and her destructive role to eradicate evil and forget her more benevolent nature, embodiment of pure love. that is what mothers do even in destruction.


Bhisma Pita a great warrior of unsurpassed valour would not fight a women.that was the ethic the tradition, thus no women were fighting in Mahabharat war,
fine for those who seek equality and enrol for Army perhaps they can do a better job who knows!
on the same token let there be no discrimination for those who argue equality, let them allow boxing and all competition in sport to be without bias!!


How can i forget the role off women, who will rock the cradle? the saying goes The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world.
who will be that gentle mother, embodiment of pure love without her unconditional love will she go fight the war and let Papa feed me and dress me, how natural it is!!

What is equality if we forget the nature, the role we must all play, we can't expect to milk the bull.

equality is a spiritual concept not a material one as long as we live in this world we are not equal.
If all thing be equal we would not require to consult sage for spiritual matter, physician for health matter or a cow to get milk.

Varna here is being made out to be a villain falling pray to propaganda based on equality, unfortunate though it may be, my condition, is based on my karma, my birth is based on my guna and karma, if people refuse to understand this then i believe they are missing the fundamental tenants of hindu dharma, reincarnation based on karma.

If we take the varnashram out of equation,we would still be afflicted by the same problems or is anyone suggesting with equality all our problem has disappeared?

Jai Shree Krishna

dogra
31 May 2013, 10:20 AM
Again does not answer the question as to why Kali ma is in female form and considering what she has to do, why have females do this, it is irrelevant in this case as to whether she is a devi or not, as she is a female firstly, so why.

As regards female boxers, or anything else that is not for us to deny individual females if they so choose. Thing is certain members of society like to place conditions on people e.g. females cant fight or be part of army, they are individuals and in that group of individuals there will be a number that will want to as they are human as we all are.

Guna and Karma indeed, a product from mother and father to produce a new individual, we cannot order a cleaners children to be a cleaner if they do not choose to, and obtain qualifications to be a doctor, where is scriptural injunction that prevent this, is there given plethora of humane verses. A cleaner function has dignity of labour as role is important, any function In society is deserving of respect.
Lord Krishna advises to reduce ego, but if individuals think they are better than others that they can ignore people, that they can mistreat people, this is not part of Lord Krishnas advice. Lower the ego accept individuals regardless of any characteristic, come without conditions. Lord Krishna advises equipoise in our conduct.

Equality comes from accepting individuals on an individual basis, not discriminating, so e.g .a doctors child can marry a cleaners child if that is there wish, to discriminate will mean no moksha a fundamental part of Hindu faith. This is the point, some people are cleverer than others, some are faster than others, nevertheless we accept all human beings as spiritually equal.

jignyAsu
31 May 2013, 10:46 AM
equality is a spiritual concept not a material one as long as we live in this world we are not equal.

If all thing be equal we would not require to consult sage for spiritual matter, physician for health matter or a cow to get milk.


Pranams. Yes I agree whole heartedly with this.

My worry is this. If every instance of inequality is projected as being a crusade, our future Hindu generations will be scared of picking up our Puranas. Which one of us who have read the Puranas sincerely can claim that they are bereft of any discrimination (material) whatseover?

Even if we turn a blind eye to all of this, the atheists and anti hindus will read it out loud to our children few generations down the line. Going around with notion that any form of discrimination is evil, they will have no defense and will lose faith.

I am not advocating for reestablishing our Puranic society in any way. But atleast let us faciliate for the future generations to be able to read our Puranas with ease and continue on with their spirituality. Let not woman suppression be hurled on the ancient men who would lower their bow and voice seeing a woman.

Necromancer
31 May 2013, 10:48 AM
Again does not answer the question as to why Kali ma is in female form and considering what she has to do, why have females do this, it is irrelevant in this case as to whether she is a devi or not, as she is a female firstly, so why.
Namaste.

Kali Ma (Maha Kali) is in female form because She is the 'opposite side' of Maha Kala.

It is the Shiva and Shakti, Purusha and Prakriti, cause and effect etc

Kali Ma is in female form in the Dvaita and Tantric applications of Hinduism so that a union can be formed between The Creator and His Creation through the feminine aspect.

Or, we could just do this:
http://img1.etsystatic.com/000/0/5190728/il_570xN.317903501.jpg

Jai Ardhanarishwara!!!

As for the topic, it is people who made 'Castes'. God didn't make them.

A Brahmin has as much chance as a Shudra for attaining enlightenment.

In the language of the Soul, there is no discrimination....however, people should not be discriminated against because of their birth anyway.

Everybody is equal and to accept that, means rejecting the world view (which Yogis do anyway).

Aum Namah Shivaya.

shiv.somashekhar
31 May 2013, 11:45 AM
Dogra, wundermonk,

Some fundamentals - though I do not really have much hope for Dogra understanding any of this.

Caste

The Varna system is not the caste system. The usage of caste as varna is incorrect, period. To return to my previous examples, Naidu, Kayasta, Gowda, Nayar, Nadar, etc., are castes and not varnas. One cannot be a Naidu unless he was born to Naidu parents. In other words, caste is solely birth based. If you disagree, please justify and explain how a Reddy can become a Naidu. If not, please stop mixing up caste and varna.

Discrimination exists among castes and has nothing to do with varnas. It is a social thing and not religious. By tradition, the Naidu will not marry a Reddy and Saiva Pillai with not marry a Goundar. We also hear of politicians favoring people of their own castes, people voting for politicians of their own castes, managers promoting people of their own castes, etc, etc. Setting Brahmins aside, there are various upper and lower castes in India and once again, this has absolutely nothing to do with religion or Varna. It is a stark display of ignorance to attribute the existence of these countless castes and the hierarchies among them to Brahmins.

Varna

When it comes to religious matters, for the most part, the domain has belonged to the Brahmanas. We know this both from history (Indica, Al Beruni, et al.,) and by tradition. To this day, one can be a Brahmana only by birth as that is the only legitimate way to obtain a Brahmana gotra. This can easily be verified by any reputed Matha in India that goes back a few hundred years. People can disagree with this system all they want, but it is simply wrong to deny the existence of this tradition or worse, to pretend this is not the case - as seen among some Hindu Gurus with western disciples. These Gurus are lying to their disciples - telling them what they want to hear and these disciples being foreigners, cannot validate these claims.

From a logical perspective, for the Varna to have any meaning at all, it has to be birth based. There exists no reliable system by which we can identify varna externally, through a series of tests. People are not uniform through their lives - their personalities can and do change based on circumstances and other factors. If Varna is based on characterestics, then one can be a Brahmana today, not tomorrow, because he is in a foul mood and then be a Brahmana again the next day - rendering the system meaningless. The other theory is the Guru can know one's Varna, which is again false. The Guru has no way of knowing anyone's varna as was proved in the case of Prabhupada, who appointed some of his western disciples as Brahmana Gurus, who were eventually exposed as pedophiles, etc. In reality, it is possible that a Non-Brahmana may possess aptitude and qualities that are expected of a Brahmana and a Brahmin (by birth) lacking the required characterestics. However, as explained above, there is no basis for arbitrating varnas and therefore, one has to either reject the system or accept it can only be birth based. The various descriptions of Brahmana qualities in scripture have traditionally been interpreted as standards to work towards and not as a testing tool for determing varna. The latter interpretation is modern, arising from taking the religion global.

ShivaFan
31 May 2013, 12:10 PM
Namaste

How did this thread go from UK anti-discrimination law protecting castes from discrimination and harrassment in public employment, criminal attack and violence from others whether it be coming from some other "caste" or a Sikh, or a muslim or a christian (by the way, there are some christians who practice caste) or from someone who has no caste but for other reasons ranging from bigotted notions of "dirty Indians and dalits" to lunatics, how did we go from that to women either voluntarily or forcefully by draft serving as soldiers?

The women soldier thing actually might be an interesting thread, and if there isn't one already I will be opening one shortly in a few minutes. Just for heads up, I think women can voluntarily become soldiers (look at Jhansi ki Rani! Ki jai!) but should not be drafted and forced to fight in the front lines until most of the men between the ages of 16 to 52 are already dead and the temples are being torn down by the muslim jihadis.

Speaking of Kali Maa and "normal human women", there was a woman once I was told about many times in Bengal who was possessed by Mother Kali and fought like a super human Bengal tiger against evil goondas and litterally ripped the fatsos apart. So do not discount women who are devotees of Kali and Chanmunda who on good authority beat the britches off the men.

Om Namah Sivaya

charitra
31 May 2013, 12:14 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwq18rxttlM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwq18rxttlM)



The current acharya of Kanchi, swami Jayendra saraswathi, had travelled to Amritananda mayi’s ashram in amrita puri and shared the dias with her, she, a fisher woman! As one can deduce, it is the small number of overzealous orthodox men (yes, usually men) who try to draw unnecessary lines between various hindu communities. Hope they emulate the example of the shankaracharya and try to debunk the prevailing auraof supremacy they entombed themselves in.

It is very encouraging to see the two well known contemporary hindus showcasing an illustrious model of unity in diversity for all of us to contemplate on, emulate and finally maintain a dignified silence, without making fools of ourselves anymore than we already did. Kaliyuga needs this kind of cohesive journey of all hindus, our westerner and African partners included! Only to make the world a more spiritual habitat, for if goes unchecked, the clear dominance the materialism currently enjoys now, all under the delusion of ‘enjoyment’, we are going to reduce ourlives to a meaningless extensions of drudgery. Namaste.

Necromancer
31 May 2013, 12:15 PM
Namaste.

I think that 'women cannot be soldiers' isn't a discrimination. At least it wasn't intended to be.

It's because women can have babies and to preserve society and keep babies being born, women are not soldiers.

Aum Namah Shivaya

wundermonk
31 May 2013, 12:26 PM
I have no idea why shiv increased the font in his post. It is difficult to quote.

In any case, we DO have means of finding out one's varna. Chapter 18 of BG is all about the characteristic marks of what constitutes varna. Why is that not being quoted here?

In any case, no one has yet answered my questions which keep piling up.

To summarize:

(1)Who is a Hindu?
(2)Do all Hindus have varna?
(3)Who is a Brahmin/Vaishya/Shudhra/Kshatriya? Can a definition be provided that is non-circular?
(4)If a Brahmin eats beef does he lose his Brahminhood?
(5)If a Brahmin becomes a soldier does he lose his Brahminhood?
(6)If a Shudhra becomes a Veda scholar, does he lose his Shudrahood?
(7)Can non-Indians become Hindus?
(8)What are the different types of Hindus? Traditional, neo, hybrid, pure, etc. etc.
(9)If two "traditional" scriptures conflict what happens then?
(10)Does anyone posting here follow any scripture in full (such as Manusmriti, Mimamsa sutras, etc.) without picking and choosing what is convenient for them? Or is it like I suspect more of "do as i say, not as I do"?
(11)If one only picks and chooses what scriptural injunction to follow and what not to, does he lose his Brahminhood/Shudhrahood/Vaishyahood/Kshatriyahood?
(12)If a Brahmin converts to Islam and begets a son, but the son reconverts back to Hinduism (for e.g. Aashish Khan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aasish_Khan)), is the son a Hindu/Brahmin?
(13)If a Brahmin converts to Islam, at what point exactly in his current life does he lose his Brahminhood?
(14)What is the locus of varna? i.e. how is it preserved between births? Can a Brahmin in this birth become a shudhra in another and vice versa? If yes, what changes in between his births?

Kalicharan Tuvij
31 May 2013, 12:33 PM
Arre baba

Varna (way of works) was a Vedic urban construct. And when Varna was being transformed into the birth based (oh yeah), endogamic, caste system, still some Indians preferred their tribe identity over anything else.

An example is, in Mahabharata, Vasudeva was a kshatriya while his cousin (?) Nanda was just a villager. This shows that Varna related to urban professions. And also that the Yadus still preferred (oh yeah and they still today) their tribe identity even when castes became a norm. (I suppose OBC were not a caste then, were they?).

Oh yeah.
(report spam)

Does broken windows theory support the idea that Spam can self-multiply? What happens when words lose meaning? What happens when lower intelligence runs faster on the surface? What happens when the correlation between intelligence and moral fabric is lost sight of? What happens when someone reeeeads through scriptures, non-stop?

The answer is, SPAM, more SPAM.

shiv.somashekhar
31 May 2013, 12:44 PM
I have no idea why shiv increased the font in his post. It is difficult to quote.

In any case, we DO have means of finding out one's varna. Chapter 18 of BG is all about the characteristic marks of what constitutes varna. Why is that not being quoted here?

In any case, no one has yet answered my questions which keep piling up.

To summarize:

(1)Who is a Hindu?
(2)Do all Hindus have varna?
(3)Who is a Brahmin/Vaishya/Shudhra/Kshatriya? Can a definition be provided that is non-circular?
(4)If a Brahmin eats beef does he lose his Brahminhood?
(5)If a Brahmin becomes a soldier does he lose his Brahminhood?
(6)If a Shudhra becomes a Veda scholar, does he lose his Shudrahood?
(7)Can non-Indians become Hindus?
(8)What are the different types of Hindus? Traditional, neo, hybrid, pure, etc. etc.
(9)If two "traditional" scriptures conflict what happens then?
(10)Does anyone posting here follow any scripture in full (such as Manusmriti, Mimamsa sutras, etc.) without picking and choosing what is convenient for them? Or is it like I suspect more of "do as i say, not as I do"?
(11)If one only picks and chooses what scriptural injunction to follow and what not to, does he lose his Brahminhood/Shudhrahood/Vaishyahood/Kshatriyahood?
(12)If a Brahmin converts to Islam and begets a son, but the son reconverts back to Hinduism (for e.g. Aashish Khan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aasish_Khan)), is the son a Hindu/Brahmin?
(13)If a Brahmin converts to Islam, at what point exactly in his current life does he lose his Brahminhood?
(14)What is the locus of varna? i.e. how is it preserved between births? Can a Brahmin in this birth become a shudhra in another and vice versa? If yes, what changes in between his births?

Sorry about the font size. Do not see a way to correct it.

Great questions, all of them, though the very first one has been laid open threadbare on these forums and you were part of it too.

I would recommend starting a new thread to address these questions.

On identifying Varna, the discussion should be deferred as it depends on the answers to the above questions.

Necromancer
31 May 2013, 12:49 PM
I have no idea why shiv increased the font in his post. It is difficult to quote.

In any case, we DO have means of finding out one's varna. Chapter 18 of BG is all about the characteristic marks of what constitutes varna. Why is that not being quoted here?

In any case, no one has yet answered my questions which keep piling up.

To summarize:

(1)Who is a Hindu?
(2)Do all Hindus have varna?
(3)Who is a Brahmin/Vaishya/Shudhra/Kshatriya? Can a definition be provided that is non-circular?
(4)If a Brahmin eats beef does he lose his Brahminhood?
(5)If a Brahmin becomes a soldier does he lose his Brahminhood?
(6)If a Shudhra becomes a Veda scholar, does he lose his Shudrahood?
(7)Can non-Indians become Hindus?
(8)What are the different types of Hindus? Traditional, neo, hybrid, pure, etc. etc.
(9)If two "traditional" scriptures conflict what happens then?
(10)Does anyone posting here follow any scripture in full (such as Manusmriti, Mimamsa sutras, etc.) without picking and choosing what is convenient for them? Or is it like I suspect more of "do as i say, not as I do"?
(11)If one only picks and chooses what scriptural injunction to follow and what not to, does he lose his Brahminhood/Shudhrahood/Vaishyahood/Kshatriyahood?
(12)If a Brahmin converts to Islam and begets a son, but the son reconverts back to Hinduism (for e.g. Aashish Khan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aasish_Khan)), is the son a Hindu/Brahmin?
(13)If a Brahmin converts to Islam, at what point exactly in his current life does he lose his Brahminhood?
(14)What is the locus of varna? i.e. how is it preserved between births? Can a Brahmin in this birth become a shudhra in another and vice versa? If yes, what changes in between his births?

Namaste.

I have often wondered if non-Indians could become Hindus.

In regards to point #7, what 'Caste' is a foreign convert to Hinduism?

Are we all 'Shudras' by default?

As for point #10 - That would be the Upanishads for me.

Aum Namah Shivaya

wundermonk
31 May 2013, 12:56 PM
My worry is this. If every instance of inequality is projected as being a crusade, our future Hindu generations will be scared of picking up our Puranas. Which one of us who have read the Puranas sincerely can claim that they are bereft of any discrimination (material) whatseover?

Even if we turn a blind eye to all of this, the atheists and anti hindus will read it out loud to our children few generations down the line. Going around with notion that any form of discrimination is evil, they will have no defense and will lose faith.

I am not advocating for reestablishing our Puranic society in any way. But atleast let us faciliate for the future generations to be able to read our Puranas with ease and continue on with their spirituality. Let not woman suppression be hurled on the ancient men who would lower their bow and voice seeing a woman.

As I see it, the issue is the following.

Whether we all like it or not, the world has a sense of morality of its own. This involves ability of women to work, equality in terms of reading scripture, etc.

As I mentioned very early in this thread, the following are the options for us Hindus.

(1)Argue that morality/legislation such as the equality bill is WRONG. This would be something like what Muslims do in the UK, US, etc. They argue that liberal democracy is flawed and Sharia is the way to go. Hindus should do something similar.

(2)Else, they can argue that Varna is NOT by birth and that Varna-by-birth has no sruthi sanction. Other smriti/puranas/itihasas are true only insofar as they do not contradict sruthi. Another line of argument could be that society during the times of the smritis/puranas/itihasas were different from what they are today and hence a large part of smritis/puranas/itihasas are for historical benefit and actually have no place in Hindu society of 21st century. This would again be something similar to what Muslims do when verses such as 9:5 and 9:29, or when instances of slavery are pointed out from the Quran/Hadiths.

(3)If neither of the above appeal to HIndus, then, it is better they convert out of HInduism instead of living with irreconcilable conflicts within their minds! They are likely to be happy outside of HInduism.

dogra
31 May 2013, 01:47 PM
Shiv, so what ever, u want to play personal then no problem u muppet

Caste is not in scriptures as caste comes from portugese word casta.
Varna is by choice and not birth, as an individual human being is born, just because someone is born to a parent who is a pandit, does not make them pandits unless they choose to become a pandit and train and educate themselves, likewise some one born to a cleaner and chooses to be a pandit can do so given training and education.
This discrimination that someone cannot become a pandit just because they are not born from pandits (though what about the other parent) is not in line with Moksha so there is a reconciliation problem, and we come back full circle.

It is shocking and astonishing (or maybe not given human nature) that there are a number of hindu faith individuals who think they can say to another person you cannot become a pandit, or doctor due to birth, shocking, this is not in line with scriptures, as yet the scriptures that clearly state this have not been shown.

People are born with a brain, we are not born robots, we can think and act, and hence if God wanted birth based he would left us as bees or ants where birth based functions, as they have very limited brains.

shiv.somashekhar
31 May 2013, 02:03 PM
Caste is not in scriptures as caste comes from portugese word casta.Varna is by choice and not birth, as an individual human being is born, just because someone is born to a parent who is a pandit, does not make them pandits unless they choose to become a pandit and train and educate themselves, likewise some one born to a cleaner and chooses to be a pandit can do so given training and education.

No one here has denied that a cleaner may have the aptitude to become a scholar.


This discrimination that someone cannot become a pandit just because they are not born from pandits (though what about the other parent) is not in line with Moksha so there is a reconciliation problem, and we come back full circle. Being a pandit has nothing to do with Moksha. You are confusing things again.


It is shocking and astonishing (or maybe not given human nature) that there are a number of hindu faith individuals who think they can say to another person you cannot become a pandit, or doctor due to birth, shocking, this is not in line with scriptures, as yet the scriptures that clearly state this have not been shown.Shankara (1300 years ago) explicitly wrote that the first order of business of the Guru is to check the prospective disciples's gotra - meaning he had to be a Brahmana by birth.

Are you aware that the tradition in India for thousands of years holds that Brahmana status can only be by birth? If you are not aware of these basics, then you should spend some time to educate yourself.


Varna is by choice and not birthDo you know of anyone who chooses the Shudra varna?
What is your choice of Varna today?
What was it yesterday?
How many changes from one Varna to another are allowed per person?
Can you boldly claim that the tradition followed in India for thousands of years is wrong? Or are you claiming that there is no such tradition?
If Varna is by choice, then shouldn't everyone choose to be a Brahmana and be done with it?
If Varna is by choice, what is the Varna of a newborn? What is the Varna of one who does not choose?

dogra
31 May 2013, 02:38 PM
No one here has denied that a cleaner may have the aptitude to become a scholar
so someone born to family of cleaners, you don't mind, if they have aptitude and education, become a pandit?


Being a pandit has nothing to do with Moksha. You are confusing things again.

point being you cannot prevent someone ,not by birth to pandits, can become pandits, if you discriminate by not allowing them, then no Moksha, your muddled here.

Again can you show Vedic scriptures or not?
Varna is by choice, as due to our inherent natures we usually become of that profession that suits us, not every person is suited to be a doctor, engineer, pandit etc. Now u have inherent natures and then choice, but this does not 100% mean birth so u become same as parents, as we are unique human beings in themselves, so will become whatever we decide to, not what society tells us to, not forced to etc.

shiv.somashekhar
31 May 2013, 03:12 PM
so someone born to family of cleaners, you don't mind, if they have aptitude and education, become a pandit?

If, by pandit, you mean scholar, then yes. We already have the infamous Max Mueller, etc., who were not Brahmins, but learnt the subject well enough to write about it. But if you mean priest, then we may have a problem because there are specific religious procedures involved here and some or all of them require a valid gotra (ancestry). The cleaner will not have a gotra and therefore cannot be a priest - not in the traditional sense. The cleaner can be a scholar, doctor, soccer player, president - pretty much anything except a traditional priest.


point being you cannot prevent someone ,not by birth to pandits, can become pandits, if you discriminate by not allowing them, then no Moksha, your muddled here.

I did get muddled trying to understand this post. No idea what you are talking about.


Again can you show Vedic scriptures or not?

Why should I show Vedic scriptures? First, please show the authority that requires us to show Vedic scriptures.


Varna is by choice, as due to our inherent natures we usually become of that profession that suits us, not every person is suited to be a doctor, engineer, pandit etc.

I think I see what you mean here. According to you Varna = Profession. This is an incorrect understanding of the concept and I see you skipped my questions on the Varna of a child, etc. Your understanding of the term Varna being incorrect, your arguments are hard to follow.

Once again,

1. Was Shankara right or wrong on having gotra as a prerequisite?
2. Do you agree that your position goes against thousands of years of tradition?

Please answer these straight questions. By avoiding them, you are making your own position weaker.

philosoraptor
31 May 2013, 03:41 PM
The current acharya of Kanchi, swami Jayendra saraswathi, had travelled to Amritananda mayi’s ashram in amrita puri and shared the dias with her, she, a fisher woman!

Did he declare her to be of brahmin varna? If not, then this is of no relevance to anything.

Rama embraced Guha and accepted Guha's hospitality. That did not turn Guha into a brahmin; he remained a Nishada. But he still had the blessings of the Lord.

philosoraptor
31 May 2013, 03:49 PM
Namaste Philosoraptor

Namaste ShivaFan. Will you be answering any of the questions I posed, or just constantly pose new ones?



So let me understand, now you are attacking the Himalayan Academy? As well as all Hindus who have left India. As well as most Hindus who live in India who belong to a huge and diverse family of Hinduism. On and on you go, with the endless attacks on Hindus, I am beginning to think there is more in common with Islam propagandists and your demeanor than Hinduism. You have so many Hindus that you see as your enemy, you must be a very small minority indeed.

I don't see anyone as my enemy. Only small-minded individuals equate differences of opinion with animosity.



As far as laws regarding discrimination, crimes and violence against “shudras” and others who are not “your caste” (what caste are you exactly, by the way?), they are much more strict in India than “the West”


Strawman argument (again). We aren't talking about "India" but about what is traditional within the scope of Hinduism. Are you seriously going to confuse Indian problems with Hindu ones? That's a classic missionary tactic.


But you feel so strong about “punishing shudras”, words mean nothing, would you ever act on them? What do you think would happen if you did?


Do you have problems with elementary English comprehension? I already expressed my doubts about the legitimacy of those shlokas. I strongly suspect them as being interpolated by later authors, and clearly said as much. What about that did you not understand? Please don't pretend to be obtuse, just so you can get up on a soapbox.

philosoraptor
31 May 2013, 04:00 PM
ahh again the personal attacks, you clearly have a problem, when people express views not of your liking u engage personal attacks because you suffer mental torment right.....

You are saying that I am mentally challenged by your postings? Er, ok....

I repeat my question - how old are you? I have been assuming up to this point that you are an adult. Was I in error?

philosoraptor
31 May 2013, 04:03 PM
As I see it, the issue is the following.

Whether we all like it or not, the world has a sense of morality of its own. This involves ability of women to work, equality in terms of reading scripture, etc.

So basically, what you are saying is that we should change Hinduism to suit the expectations of the rest of the Non-Hindu world.

Considering all the starvation and poverty that exist in the world, would you similarly argue that it is wrong to preach the virtues of a vegetarian diet, because that would offend so many people also?

Eastern Mind
31 May 2013, 04:47 PM
Admin Note

Please feel free to knock yourself out in this Jalpa forum.

Vannakkam:

I do wish it was a private room though. I can't imagine what an innocent browser/curiosity seeker must think of the maturity level here, if they don't know what jalpa or kutarka means.

Is HDF dieing a slow death? Maybe this is why... just a thought.

kutarka - useless argument
jalpa - 'playful' conversation

jalpa, a more playful kind - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamborghini_Jalpa

Aum Namasivaya

Ganeshprasad
31 May 2013, 05:59 PM
Pranam


Again does not answer the question as to why Kali ma is in female form and considering what she has to do, why have females do this, it is irrelevant in this case as to whether she is a devi or not, as she is a female firstly, so why.

Why what? what exactly is your point? Kali thirst for Blood are you suggesting women do the same?



As regards female boxers, or anything else that is not for us to deny individual females if they so choose. Thing is certain members of society like to place conditions on people e.g. females cant fight or be part of army, they are individuals and in that group of individuals there will be a number that will want to as they are human as we all are.

You are missing the point, no one denying they are human and if they so wish they can do what they like but are they equal to box a male or compete in the same game? you are talking off equality where else i am pointing out the differences we are all made different in ability and skill. you don't see a cow till the farm but we use the bull because they are strong, that is our tradition off course you can use a cow if you so choose but that would be deemed as Go Paap in our Hindu dharma.



Guna and Karma indeed, a product from mother and father to produce a new individual, we cannot condemn a cleaners children to be a cleaner if they do not choose to, and obtain qualifications to be a doctor, where is scriptural injunction that prevent this, is there given plethora of humane verses.

Oh really so my guna and karma is a product of my parents, nothing to do with individual ? Who says anything about condemning anyone, beside neither being a cleaner or a doctor changes anyone's varna.

If you are looking for scripture injection of changing varna there are two specific sloka in Bhagvat Gita if I can recall they are in chapter three and eighteen which says, from memory, it is better to engage in ones dharma even if Imperfectly than to perform someone else occupation perfectly. To follow another's path is deemed dangerous.




Equality comes from accepting individuals on an individual basis, not discriminating, so e.g .a doctors child can marry a cleaners child if that is there wish, to discriminate will mean no moksha a fundamental part of Hindu faith. This is the point, some people are cleverer than others, some are faster than others, nevertheless we accept all human beings as spiritually equal.

Please try to understand spiritually, not just human but all sentient being are equal. You must understand everyone is born with different aptitude attained through different vasnas and karmas and thus there is unequal status it can not be otherwise.
Off course anyone can marry anyone they choose and they do but bare in mind, it is not discriminatory when a farmer choose the best seed to get best crop or a race owner uses the best pedigree horse to produce another race horse. If a horse chose through the matter of heart an ass to mate with that would give a tatoo which would still race but don't expect it to win the race!

Jai Shree Krishna

philosoraptor
31 May 2013, 06:02 PM
Pranams. Yes I agree whole heartedly with this.

My worry is this. If every instance of inequality is projected as being a crusade, our future Hindu generations will be scared of picking up our Puranas. Which one of us who have read the Puranas sincerely can claim that they are bereft of any discrimination (material) whatseover?

Even if we turn a blind eye to all of this, the atheists and anti hindus will read it out loud to our children few generations down the line. Going around with notion that any form of discrimination is evil, they will have no defense and will lose faith.

I am not advocating for reestablishing our Puranic society in any way. But atleast let us faciliate for the future generations to be able to read our Puranas with ease and continue on with their spirituality. Let not woman suppression be hurled on the ancient men who would lower their bow and voice seeing a woman.

The type of "discrimination" that is endorsed by our shAstra-s has nothing to do with the violent punishments which Shivafan, dogra, et. al. tritely see as being the sum and substance of varNAshrama-dharma. For too long, Hindus have looked at varNAshrama-dharma through an exclusively Western lens, and have come to many childish and inaccurate conclusions about it, and about the need to "reform" sanAtana-dharma, as if they were somehow authorized to do it, and as if such a thing could be done (the idea of "changing" the "eternal dharma" is a bit of a contradiction).

We distinguish between different varNa-s because we have duties that are prescribed to us based on our different varNas, which are themselves based on birth due to previous guNa/karma. Our duties are not just for making society function. They are the means by which we worship the Lord. The viShNu purANa 3.8.6-19 says:

"The supreme Vishńu is propitiated by a man who observes the institutions of caste, order, and purificatory practices: no other path is the way to please him. He who offers sacrifices, sacrifices to him; he who murmurs prayer, prays to him; he who injures living creatures, injures him; for Hari is all beings. Janárdana therefore is propitiated by him who is attentive to established observances, and follows the duties prescribed for his caste. The Brahman, the Kshatriya, the Vaiśya, and the Śúdra, who attends to the rules enjoined his caste, best worships Vishńu."

There is nothing at all sinister about this. Equality is not a feature of this material existence. People have different inclinations due to their previous guna/karma, and without regulations to establish them in work for the pleasure of Lord Vishnu, they merely work for their own sense gratification. While such people pontificate on such high-sounding platitudes as "equality," they nevertheless differentiate themselves from each other based on their material wealth and influence. There is no such thing as a classless social system. Not before, not now, and not ever in the future.

Varnaashrama is a divine class system. Everyone in the system has his or her place, and no one is excluded from society as per shAstra. This is implicit in the view that Hari is all beings, He being their indwelling paramAtmA. It is also reflected in the puruSha-sukta which describes the separate origins of each varNa from the different parts of the parama puruSha. One can see hierarchy in this, since brahmins come from His head while shUdras come from His feet, but let's look at this in the correct, devotional context: would anyone hesitate to show respect to His Divine Feet? It is against the spirit of shAstra to harm or injure any being merely because of varNa differences. The continued propensity of anti-Hindu critics, as well as the Hindu diaspora and other Western converts influenced by their perceptions, to see varNAshrama based on the real and imagined faults of the modern caste system, is neither accurate nor honest. Nor is it desirable to try and "change" Hindu varnAshrama to make it more compatible with Western egalitarian notions of work and social relations. This is because Western views of work and class relations are based on the incorrect notion that the body is the Self. From this, it follows that one is defined by the work one does, which is itself based on personal whims and desires. This is a wrong conception. For the follower of dharma, there is a more spiritual concept of Self which stresses the eternal, transcendental nature of one's identity and the temporary nature of one's body and the roles it is assigned. The sAtvatas do not do work because they desire it - they do work because it please Vishnu, and because the work has been allotted to them as their service. This is a foreign concept to materialistic people, for whom work is a means to material embellishments. Consequently, if materialistic people are ordained by scripture to take up certain kinds of work and not others, then (sadly), they can only see it as "discrimination" or "oppression." This is because of their materialistic mentality. The bhAgavata's viewpoint, in contrast, is nicely summed up by these shlokas from the bhAgavata purANa 1.2.8-10:

"SB 1.2.8 — The occupational activities a man performs according to his own position are only so much useless labor if they do not provoke attraction for the message of the Personality of Godhead.
SB 1.2.9 — All occupational engagements are certainly meant for ultimate liberation. They should never be performed for material gain. Furthermore, according to sages, one who is engaged in the ultimate occupational service should never use material gain to cultivate sense gratification.
SB 1.2.10 — Life’s desires should never be directed toward sense gratification. One should desire only a healthy life, or self-preservation, since a human being is meant for inquiry about the Absolute Truth. Nothing else should be the goal of one’s works."

The desire to be a great brahmin, a guru, a sannyasi, a ruler, etc - these are all different kinds of sense gratification. We do not desire to be something that is not ordained for us. We do what is commanded for us because it is our devotional service. This takes real humility and requires that we suppress our false ego.

That many "Hindus" can not understand these points sadly reveals their fundamental misunderstanding of traditional Hindu philosophy.

shiv.somashekhar
31 May 2013, 07:36 PM
Vannakkam:

I do wish it was a private room though. I can't imagine what an innocent browser/curiosity seeker must think of the maturity level here, if they don't know what jalpa or kutarka means.

Is HDF dieing a slow death? Maybe this is why... just a thought.

kutarka - useless argument
jalpa - 'playful' conversation

jalpa, a more playful kind - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamborghini_Jalpa

Aum Namasivaya

HDF may be dying because there is activity in the Jalpa section? I do not see the connection.

With due respect, what constitutes serious discussion to some is Jalpa to some others (in this case, moderators) as the latter either does not find the topic relevant or interesting or is just not the type to engage in long discussion. People who are making long posts on neo Hinduism or caste do not consider their posts as useless arguments or playful conversation.

Omkara
01 June 2013, 02:30 AM
Again can u explain why are there powerful female forms of God? why, why make as female, why if not to tell us clear gender equality.

Nobody 'makes' gods. That is simply another Neo- Hindu delusion. There is no significance to the existence of goddesses other than the fact that devas too need wives.

Omkara
01 June 2013, 02:37 AM
Also, Bhishma's reasoning is suspect here. Bhishma recognizes Shikhandin as Amba (woman) from a previous birth and does not deliver a volley of arrows against her. But per Hindu philosophy, there is no male or female jiva. That is, male/female are limiting adjuncts upon the soul. In moksha, male or female is irrelevant since all limiting adjuncts are removed.


Irrelevant. Even human/animal are adjuncts to the soul. In that case, will you indulge in bestiality? Try to engage in conversation with animals? Make a dog wear a sacred thread?

Also, Shikhandin was born as a woman called Shikhandini. He/she only had the genitals of a male. So his gender status WAS suspect. Besides, the fact that women are not allowed in warfare and soldiers are not allowed to kill women was never in dispute. What was in dispute was the gender status of Shikhandin. Both the Pandavas and Kauravas agreed that women are not allowed in warfare.

Also, Rama refused to kill Tataka for this very reason. What do you have to say about that?

wundermonk
01 June 2013, 03:10 AM
So basically, what you are saying is that we should change Hinduism to suit the expectations of the rest of the Non-Hindu world.

If you have not noticed yet, we already HAVE Brahmins crossing oceans and continuing to claim they represent "traditional" Hinduism despite injunctions against it! Hinduism has already changed since the times of Manu.

If you disagree please describe who is a traditional Hindu and what makes him traditional.

For e.g. while growing up, menstruating women in my extended family were considered "theetu" and unclean and for the days in questions they had to remain without touching anyone else. Is this practice traditional?

Now, the same women have families of their own and do not follow this custom with their daughters. Yet, they continue to call themselves Hindu. Would they therefore be neo-Hindus?

dogra
01 June 2013, 03:43 AM
If, by pandit, you mean scholar, then yes. We already have the infamous Max Mueller, etc., who were not Brahmins, but learnt the subject well enough to write about it. But if you mean priest, then we may have a problem because there are specific religious procedures involved here and some or all of them require a valid gotra (ancestry). The cleaner will not have a gotra and therefore cannot be a priest - not in the traditional sense. The cleaner can be a scholar, doctor, soccer player, president - pretty much anything except a traditional priest.


What is difference between pandit and priest, as are they not same professions, or u saying a person can only become a priest if parent is one, then can u explain who is to prevent a non priest becoming a priest

If any person discriminates against another then no Moksha.


Why should I show Vedic scriptures? First, please show the authority that requires us to show Vedic scriptures.


Can u show Vedic scriptures that back up your point or cant you, cmon u say its in religion then astonishingly cant show Vedic scriptures for back up,


I think I see what you mean here. According to you Varna = Profession. This is an incorrect understanding of the concept and I see you skipped my questions on the Varna of a child, etc.

Varna of a child, that will be from Guna and Karma, God will determine that and the Child will choose to be what he/she decides.

dogra
01 June 2013, 03:45 AM
You are saying that I am mentally challenged by your postings? Er, ok....

I repeat my question - how old are you? I have been assuming up to this point that you are an adult. Was I in error?

Pah more personal jibber jabber from you, ,when u don't like what is said u resort to personal attacks, juvenile and pathetic, probably throw toys out of your pram do u.
I repeat do u suffer mental torture when u do not lie what is said?

wundermonk
01 June 2013, 03:56 AM
Irrelevant. Even human/animal are adjuncts to the soul. In that case, will you indulge in bestiality? Try to engage in conversation with animals? Make a dog wear a sacred thread?

Also, Shikhandin was born as a woman called Shikhandini. He/she only had the genitals of a male. So his gender status WAS suspect. Besides, the fact that women are not allowed in warfare and soldiers are not allowed to kill women was never in dispute. What was in dispute was the gender status of Shikhandin. Both the Pandavas and Kauravas agreed that women are not allowed in warfare.

Also, Rama refused to kill Tataka for this very reason. What do you have to say about that?

All I have to say about this is that Indian Hindu soldiers fighting to keep Kashmir a part of India would be mercilessly mocked at on HDF if he kills a Muslim female suicide bomber. He would be mocked at by people who themselves pick and choose from scripture and refuse to identify themselves as traditional Hindus or what set of scriptural injunctions in entirety they themselves follow in their lives.

As I have mentioned before, this is a case of "do as I say, not as I do".

Good job guys!

dogra
01 June 2013, 03:56 AM
Why what? what exactly is your point? Kali thirst for Blood are you suggesting women do the same?



Again Kali is in female form, so why female, why not leave Kali at home, why bother showing females can be destroyer.


You are missing the point, no one denying they are human and if they so wish they can do what they like but are they equal to box a male or compete in the same game? you are talking off equality where else i am pointing out the differences we are all made different in ability and skill. you don't see a cow till the farm but we use the bull because they are strong, that is our tradition off course you can use a cow if you so choose but that would be deemed as Go Paap in our Hindu dharma.


Oh dear, already stated some are faster than others, some cleverer than others, some stronger than others, hope made this clear, we are not equal in these characteristics, hence why you have different weight divisions in boxing for example. This is not the equality I am talking of, u misunderstand, agree that we are all made differently in terms of ability and skill, though a person can improve their skill if training or education occurs, but may not reach someone who has better inherent natures in the particular area.



Oh really so my guna and karma is a product of my parents, nothing to do with individual ? Who says anything about condemning anyone, beside neither being a cleaner or a doctor changes anyone's varna.

If you are looking for scripture injection of changing varna there are two specific sloka in Bhagvat Gita if I can recall they are in chapter three and eighteen which says, from memory, it is better to engage in ones dharma even if Imperfectly than to perform someone else occupation perfectly. To follow another's path is deemed dangerous

Ok, maybe I did not state in full, karma and guna of individual will in reincarnation come forth, and yes Varna may not change, but individual can choose to be of whatever profession they decide if they educate themselves.

Yes Lord Krishna does advise that, he does not state that u must be of same profession as parents, hence no scriptural injunction. If a person chooses to follow a path not of their nature then that is their choice, and we cannot condemn, though advise by Lord Krishna is not to do so, and quite agree.



Please try to understand spiritually, not just human but all sentient being are equal. You must understand everyone is born with different aptitude attained through different vasnas and karmas and thus there is unequal status it can not be otherwise.
Off course anyone can marry anyone they choose and they do but bare in mind, it is not discriminatory when a farmer choose the best seed to get best crop or a race owner uses the best pedigree horse to produce another race horse. If a horse chose through the matter of heart an ass to mate with that would give a tatoo which would still race but don't expect it to win the race!


Ok as stated there is spiritual equality, of course there will be different abilities, that is not the point here, point is to not discriminate against anyone regardless of birth, to not prevent anyone being of a profession they so choose.

dogra
01 June 2013, 06:42 AM
Nobody 'makes' gods. That is simply another Neo- Hindu delusion. There is no significance to the existence of goddesses other than the fact that devas too need wives.

Oh dear, there are powerful female forms of God

Omkara
01 June 2013, 07:11 AM
Oh dear, there are powerful female forms of God

Would you bother responding to what I said rather than going on saying the same thing like a broken record?

Ganeshprasad
01 June 2013, 09:59 AM
Pranam JignyAsu


Pranams. Yes I agree whole heartedly with this.

My worry is this. If every instance of inequality is projected as being a crusade, our future Hindu generations will be scared of picking up our Puranas. Which one of us who have read the Puranas sincerely can claim that they are bereft of any discrimination (material) whatseover?

Even if we turn a blind eye to all of this, the atheists and anti hindus will read it out loud to our children few generations down the line. Going around with notion that any form of discrimination is evil, they will have no defense and will lose faith.

I am not advocating for reestablishing our Puranic society in any way. But atleast let us faciliate for the future generations to be able to read our Puranas with ease and continue on with their spirituality. Let not woman suppression be hurled on the ancient men who would lower their bow and voice seeing a woman.

Your worry is not unfounded nor those who argue against varna( even though misguided) are not wrong to raise their voice, after all we all Hindus have respect for our Dharma in our own way.
There is different world view out there, there is no place for crusade rightly so just as Lord Krishna having instructed Arjun he leaves it for him to make his choice.

Seems Brits are at it again, divide and rule, why bring caste into an equality law what is their purpose, is there a caste discrimination in UK ?

You talk about future generation well let me ask you what kind of respect do we hold for our ancestors, did they give in to equality did they give up their choice of Varna?
No instead they chose to die, there were piles of sacred thread they prefer to die then to convert. Both this so called religion would have given us the opportunity to Be equal in their myopic view, yet they chose otherwise why?
Because they knew, Vivek (discrimination ) in the Puranas and ithihas are source of harmony in this unequal world, there is no democracy on earth that is on par with our dharma and shastra.

In the name of equality are we going to question the ethics of Bhismapita not wanting to kill a woman did he not know Maa Kali is a woman? Or do we see in our tradition,the morality of man, not wanting to fight a woman!

Shree Krishna also address your worry he says;

The wise should not unsettle the mind of the ignorant who is attached to the fruits of work, but the enlightened one should inspire others by performing all works efficiently without attachment. (3.26)

Jai Shree Krishna

Ganeshprasad
01 June 2013, 10:13 AM
Pranam


Again Kali is in female form, so why female, why not leave Kali at home, why bother showing females can be destroyer.
.


If you want to know why Kali took that ferocious form then you will have to read chandi path in markendeya puran.

As to why in our tradition women did not take arms which is ample evident in Mahabharata war, you will have to understand the moral principle involved in it, also she is tender loving person only a woman can give birth and bring up a family in an ideal situation, she is not cut out for warfare, different in this day and age though.

If you can understand the principle behind cow and the bull and their respective place in our tradition you might understand why our society is geared up the way it was.



Ok, maybe I did not state in full, karma and guna of individual will in reincarnation come forth, and yes Varna may not change, but individual can choose to be of whatever profession they decide if they educate themselves.


Good at last we agree on something, as to what vocation one choose in pursuit of material gain, which is the main goal in this age but the goal of Varnashram is and was a different proposition.



Yes Lord Krishna does advise that, he does not state that u must be of same profession as parents, hence no scriptural injunction. If a person chooses to follow a path not of their nature then that is their choice, and we cannot condemn, though advise by Lord Krishna is not to do so, and quite agree.

Though I have no desire or authority to condemn anyone but we should always remain mindful of what he says although I must accept not everyone reads Bhagvat Gita .

Now lets consider what he does say after saying he is the author of Varnashram bg4.13 he says thus in 4.15;

evam jnatva krtam karma
purvair api mumuksubhih
kuru karmaiva tasmat tvam
purvaih purvataram krtam

tasmat--therefore; tvam--you; purvaih--by the predecessors; purva-taram--ancient predecessors; krtam--as performed.

I think that makes pretty much clear indication we are to follow in the footstep of our forefathers. I don't need Scripture to tell me that I am sure if we have faith in our lineage and respect what they did, we would follow in their footsteps.



Ok as stated there is spiritual equality, of course there will be different abilities, that is not the point here, point is to not discriminate against anyone regardless of birth, to not prevent anyone being of a profession they so choose.

If you understand Vivek you will know our scripture do not discriminate.

Jai Shree Krishna

philosoraptor
01 June 2013, 10:27 AM
Wundermonk, will you care to answer my question about vegetarianism?


If you have not noticed yet, we already HAVE Brahmins crossing oceans and continuing to claim they represent "traditional" Hinduism despite injunctions against it! Hinduism has already changed since the times of Manu.

You're not listening. The status of Manu is not in dispute as far as traditional scholars or shAstra is concerned. It is the status of some of the verses which may or not be authentic that is disputed. I've given you my reasons for doubting the authenticity of the ocean-crossing verse. Discussions cannot progress if you continue to ignore new arguments and simply repeat the same, poorly-thought-out arguments ad nauseum.



If you disagree please describe who is a traditional Hindu and what makes him traditional.

This has already been discussed to death in previous threads. The fact that you did not agree with the conclusions does not make them any less clear.



For e.g. while growing up, menstruating women in my extended family were considered "theetu" and unclean and for the days in questions they had to remain without touching anyone else. Is this practice traditional?

This practice was observed by many traditional ladies, I suspect. Whether it is scriptural or not, I cannot say.



Now, the same women have families of their own and do not follow this custom with their daughters. Yet, they continue to call themselves Hindu. Would they therefore be neo-Hindus?

Again, we had a very clear discussion outlining how Neo-Hindus should be classified. I specifically made it a point to discuss how the Traditional/Neo classification should be seen as a spectrum, rather than an "either/or" kind of thing. I also pointed out that it is primarily the reasoning process (i.e. how one arrives at religious conclusions) that really classifies one on this spectrum. There is no point in discussing this all over again, if you are just going to once again ignore it all and tell the whole forum that the whole discussion is stupid. Instead of me wasting my time rehashing the same points, let me instead refer you to this Indologist's views on the subject: http://kelamuni.blogspot.com/2006/09/neo-vedanta-of-swami-vivekananda-part_11.html - he has quite a few interesting things to say about the subject that parallel the points raised in our discussions here. Warning: This person is not (as far as I know) a traditional Hindu, and so you may feel that nothing he says about Neo-Hinduism need be taken seriously. However, if you really took that position, then you should be similarly dismissive of other theories on Hinduism advanced by the non-Hindu likes of Wendy Doniger, M. Witzel, J. Kripal, et. al. and not be offended by their views. Somehow, I doubt that you would take such a position.

Let me just remind you again, that I would appreciate getting your answer on the vegetarianism question, since you are now on record as saying that the rest of the world's opinion on morality should be the standard by which we determine what is and is not dharma in Hinduism.

philosoraptor
01 June 2013, 10:34 AM
Oh dear, there are powerful female forms of God

There are also powerful animal forms of God, specifically fish, turtles, boars, and lions, just to name a few. So, if "female forms of God" imply that females are equal to men and can be invested with sacred thread, then would you agree that "animal forms of God" imply that animals are equal to men and that animals can be given sacred thread?

Take your time and think it over before answering.

Also, do you mind telling the forum how old you are?

shiv.somashekhar
01 June 2013, 10:47 AM
Also, do you mind telling the forum how old you are?

Just a thought. There is the possibility that Dogra may be a female and therefore reluctant to disclose her age.

You have already asked multiple time and no answer is forthcoming.

TrikonaBindu
01 June 2013, 12:10 PM
let me instead refer you to this Indologist's views on the subject: http://kelamuni.blogspot.com/2006/09/neo-vedanta-of-swami-vivekananda-part_11.html - he has quite a few interesting things to say

Thank you, philosoraptor. This is indeed an interesting article. It helps me towards an historical perspective on the kinds of discussions we have been having here. I am "bookmarking" that blog.

Satyameva jayate

dogra
01 June 2013, 01:26 PM
Would you bother responding to what I said rather than going on saying the same thing like a broken record?
Oh like u sending me private messages and stalking me , dear me!

dogra
01 June 2013, 01:51 PM
As regards Kali ma, Durga Mata, Shakti, think the facts they can act, and shows and informs us that women, if they so choose, partake in activities which some may deem just the preserve of men. End of day this is my view given clear facts of powerful female forms of God, thanks for the information.


think that makes pretty much clear indication we are to follow in the footstep of our forefathers. I don't need Scripture to tell me that I am sure if we have faith in our lineage and respect what they did, we would follow in their footsteps.



Footsteps which type, professionally, behaviourally, to many variables, but this English translation does clear up :
http://www.santosha.com/philosophy/gita-chapter4.html


The four Varna or divisions of human society,
Based on aptitude and vocation, were created by Me.
Though I am the author of this system,
One should know that I do nothing and I am eternal.


Works do not bind Me,
Because I have no desire for the fruits of work.
The one who understands this truth is not bound by Karma.

The ancient seekers of liberation
Also performed their duties with this understanding.
Therefore, you should do your duty as the ancients did. Ancients followed by working without attachment, yes agree with this.

Each individual has free choice to choose their profession, no other individual can tell them no, that is discrimination, which is not in scriptures.
Lord Krishna says that God resides in hearts of all beings, so respect to all fellow human beings regardless of their characteristics.

RV 10.191:



Rigveda 10.191.2
- walk together in the path of truth without bias, injustice and intolerance
- talk to each other to enhance knowledge, wisdom and affection without malice and hatred
- keep working together to enhance knowledge and bliss
- follow the path of truth and selflessness as exemplified by noble people
Rigveda 10.191.3
- Your analysis of right and wrong should be unbiased and not specific to particular set of people
- You should organize together to help everyone enhance their health, knowledge and prosperity
- Your minds should be devoid of hatred and should see progress and happiness of all as one’s own progress and happiness and you should only act for enhancement of happiness of all based on truth
- Work together to eradicate falsehood and discover truth
- Never ever deviate from path of truth and unity
Rigveda 10.191.4
- Your efforts should be full of enthusiasm and for bliss of everyone
- Your emotions should be for one and all and love everyone the way you love yourself
- Your desire, resolve, analysis, faith, abstinence, patience, keenness, focus, comfort etc all should be towards truth and bliss for all, and away from falsehood.
- Keep working in synergy to increase each others’ knowledge and bliss

dogra
01 June 2013, 01:55 PM
There are also powerful animal forms of God, specifically fish, turtles, boars, and lions, just to name a few. So, if "female forms of God" imply that females are equal to men and can be invested with sacred thread, then would you agree that "animal forms of God" imply that animals are equal to men and that animals can be given sacred thread?

Take your time and think it over before answering.

Also, do you mind telling the forum how old you are?

Oh dear, missing the point and moving to another sphere. Why are they powerful female forms of God who can act.
Who can deny them there right if a number of women so choose?

Also do u suffer mental torment when someone does not agree with u ,is that why u get personal?

dogra
01 June 2013, 01:57 PM
Just a thought. There is the possibility that Dogra may be a female and therefore reluctant to disclose her age.

You have already asked multiple time and no answer is forthcoming.

thoughts are good, why is no answer forthcoming about getting personal, or is it your too bothered, cant accept and then resort to personal attacks .
Think the virtual police may come for you. Oh by the way can u change your clothes as you both stink, as u are getting hot and bothered, and hence start personal attacks.

charitra
01 June 2013, 02:06 PM
Did he declare her to be of brahmin varna? If not, then this is of no relevance to anything.

We need to remove all the interpolations that became a common place of occurrence in varna related verses you see. Just ponder for a second- who wrote the verses all these decades? But then I dont want to spoil your party, maybe it serves a purpose, and so be it, you keep deluding yourself that you are 'the chosen one'. Its for others (who arent deluded) I am writing the below message.I know you dont want any of it, you need 'the fix' to keep going.

I am sure the Kanchi seer knows that the people living in the present era in Kaliyuga made any classification of hindus altogether irrelevant.One has to strive to become a satvik and move away from Tamas on his/her own by means of following a dharmic way life. No free lunches to anyone, birth or otherwise, though some suffer from delusions of grandeur. By ones own sadhana one peels off those layers of ignorance that keep jeevatma in darkness.

Krishna CHOSE to live among the gopikas and gopabalas, the peasants who never read any shastras, never adopted any strict regular puja rituals etc. BTW also they were meat eaters just so you all know. Krishna, thus erasing the myth of this birth related classifications, associated himself with the good natured ‘average joes’ of the time. Had He so wished he would have spent his childhood in a very well known gurukulam of the era, under the watchful guidance of a great maha rishi, just as Rama did in Treta yuga. No, He counted that option out. His message was that those honest people who live among cattle and help feed others through their profession are to be recognized and honored with his divine presence by living with them in flesh and blood! That’s not all, he had more to give ‘his’ community, Yashoda’s witnessing the first vishwa rupa wasn’t any coincidence at all, it was all part of His leela. Krishna wanted this peasant, a non shastra expert, a non seeker and a simple housewife to be the first one to realize his divine role in dwapara yuga. Her pure selfless love was all Krishna took into account, He knew that her shastra expertise, which was zero to none, was non existent on her resume. If you can stretch your imagination you can see that that was a preamble to the main story of kuru kshetra, the story in which he had dismantled the already decadent varna system and redefined it for the benefit of entire universe. His extended family and friends (of kshatriyas) have driven him out of the palaces, his own father delivered him in the hands of shudras for safe keeping.The chosen foster community was the best fit for the decadent times, meaning that the chest thumping other 3 varnas were excluded from the list of prospective foster parents just like, all that for a reason. That too in Dwaparayuga mind you! The varna turned rogue already!!

That’s the one spectacular way he tried to dispel the myths of the varna some individuals linked with birth, he made it a point to warn people all over the planet that one has the choice to excel in any of those four classes the social structure can efficiently run on. Solely based on one’s chosen path of action. He told Arjuna that karma yoga is mandatory for him to call himself a kshatriyas, and his mere birth wont do it. All those eithteen akshounis (millions) of soldiers that participated in kurukshetra war were kshatriya as well. According to the books, the parents of those soldiers being carpenters, demons (Gatoth gacha) or pujaris (Drona) was to be discounted altogether.Having faught a dharmic war, they turned into kshatriyas, its that simple.

No meaningful classification would exclude over a 6 billion people on any premise. Thats a lot of people. Or do you all think Brahman/Krishna/ shiva are meant to only handle a small chunk of land along with the inhabitants of that corner of the planet, and by that to completely exclude the rest of the universe out of their care? Guess not. Clearly that’s blasphemy. From the very outset Vedopanishads are meant for ALL sentient beings, varna by birth reduces the faith to a fraction of the population. Thats clearly wrong. Everyone is included and defined in accordance with ones gunas. Namaste.

dogra
01 June 2013, 02:15 PM
Good Post Charitra.

This article is from Shyam who have translated B. Gita into you tube videos.


The debate has divided the Hindu community and the unfair misconception of the system has had a lot of people directing attacks towards Hindus. In Hinduism there is no place for a caste system. The varna (not caste) system was created out of love by our great Rishis to enable a civilisation to prosper and flourish, to allow society to operate with maximum efficiency and to give every human being the opportunity to achieve spiritual fulfillment in their lives. This article is intended to go to the root of why the varna (not caste) system was created, explain why there is no such thing as a caste system and to eliminate history's biggest misunderstanding once and for all.


These four varnas were never different levels or castes; they were personality types and in ancient times people from all four varnas used to sit down to eat together


Our great Rishis divided people in our Indian society into four varnas: brāhmin, kshatriya, vaishya and sudhra (meaning the intellectuals, warriors, merchants and people with love of service). However, this type was not determined by birth but by the person’s root interests. It is very interesting that whenever society has been divided around the world then it has always been in four sections. This is the case in all civilisations. In ancient Greek culture, they were very advanced and divided society into four parts: the aristocrats, warriors, traders and slaves. Indian society however never regarded people as slaves. In ancient Egyptian culture, society was also divided into four parts and so was Chinese culture. This was the case in all civilisations. Varna basically means colour not caste. This colour is determined by their mental characteristics and their interests. Only after looking at this was the varna decided. These four varnas were never different levels; they were personality types and in ancient types people from all four varnas used to sit down to eat together.


Who is a Brāhmin? Alexander Fleming's gift to society


One type of varna is people in society that have an interest in knowledge. You can give them possessions but possessions will not matter to them. If they do not get power then it will also not matter to them. They just want knowledge. These people are those whom we call brāhmin. If we look at society today, then these are the intellectuals for example the doctors, engineers, scientists etc. These are all brāhmins. A person that spends all their time in their laboratory making inventions is in our opinion a brāhmin. The scientist that invented pennicylin, Alexander Flemming, was approached by various company representatives all over the world and was asked to give their companies the patent. He got everyone together and gave all of them the patent for penicylin. He gave them all the formula and told them to make it. The speech he gave to these people is worth reading. He said “any scientist that has invented something has stood on the shoulders of giants that are his predecessors. I have invented penicylin but it is because of the countless people who experimented and tried to invent this before I did. I used their results and was therefore successful. Therefore I do not have the right alone to take credit for this invention”. He gave penicylin to society. The reason why we can get penicillin for so cheap in the stores is because of this. If he had kept the patent and asked for a royalty then he would have become extremely rich with millions of dollars but he did not want it. In our opinion, Alexander Fleming is a brāhmin.


Who is a kshatriya? The social contract theory

A kshatriya is the type of person in society that has an interest in power. The definition in Sanskrit is kshata trayate iti kshatriya. Kshar means a difficulty or problem and a person that saves one from this is a kshatriya. The kshatriya varna was created because the Rishis looked at the social contract theory. It was a social contract. During primitive times the first men used to wander around alone and his neccesity was to wake up in the morning to find fruits and flowers, or to hunt animals. He would eat the fruits or animals, fill his stomach and then go to sleep. Then the next day he would wake up and start hunting again. That was his only necessity: to eat and sleep like the animals do. But often it happened that whenever he went hunting for the animals then an animal would kill him. Additionally, he could not sleep properly at night as if he fell asleep and there was a lion or a tiger walking around in the forest then it would kill him at night. Man thought “at this rate I will never be able to sleep because I would have to be alert 24 hours a day. I can get nothing done during the day”.


10 or 15 people would get together (and the groups got bigger) and thought that rather than all of them staying awake all the time, why do 2 people not stay on guard while the others go to sleep. If an animal would come to hunt them then those 2 would face them and if they could not do so then they would wake the rest up and so all of them would get up and fight. Therefore when the animals do not come then all could sleep peacefully while the 2 protected the rest. This was decided and the two brave people in the group were told to guard the group at night while the rest of the group slept. The 2 told the rest not to worry because they would guard the group at night but they also thought “if we stay up at night then what about our food during the day? We also get hungry. How can we stay up all day and also at night while you get some sleep and we do not.”


The rest of the group told them not to worry because some of the food they gathered during the day would be allocated to the hunters while they rest during the day. This was the primary tax. This was how the tax system started. One would protect the other in return for something. Over time, one out of those two people became more and more powerful, and eventually became the kings of the group. As the groups got bigger, then more people were needed to protect the groups and the king got together 5, then 10 then 50 then hundreds of people to protect the groups. These were the people that enjoyed protecting society so that the rest of the people could live their lives in peace. This is the social contract theory. This is how the ksatriya varna came into existence. This happened all over the world. So many people have the mental attitude that they want to get rid of other’s problems. They do not mind what happens to themselves as God has given them strength to get rid of other’s difficulties. They have no interest in wealth or knowledge. They are just interested in protecting other people. They need power. They need the palace and the throne. This is a ksatriya.


Please note very clearly that while primitive men had to fight against wild animals to protect human beings from threats, eating meat in any form in today's times (where human beings are not under threat from animals) is wrong and against the principles of Hinduism, which advocates wishing well for all living beings (one of the 10 fundamental principles of Hinduism) not to mention how damaging eating meat is to your spiritual, mental and physicial well-being.


Who is a vaishya? Money is power


The third varna are ones that may be interested in knowledge but do not have the thirst for it, nor do they have much interest in power. They just want possessions. These are the vaishyas. Vishati iti vaishya. There are two phrases in English: power is money and money is power. For a kshatriya power is money and for a vaishya money is power. They are just interested in possessions and money. They used to be farmers at the beginning. Vishati means to enter. When a person has been working in a farm the whole day and is covered with dirt all over, then the Rishis must have seen the farmer and thought that the farmer looks as if he can come out of the ground. Therefore the definition is vishati iti vaishya.


Who is a shudra? The most important part of society without whom society cannot function


The fourth varna are those whose main interests are to serve society. They have an interest in looking after the physiological and material needs of society. We call these people shudra. These are those who cannot see others sad and want to get rid of other’s grieves. Shucha dravati iti shudra. During primitive times, men were walking around bare feet in the jungle. When a thorn gets stuck in their foot they would start screaming. Blood would start coming out. Someone might have seen this and would have got very sad. He thought “how could I get rid of this person’s pain?” Over time, they must have got leaves from the trees then the skins of animals and made footwear out of these. Now we have the shoemakers that are examples of shudras because they try to get rid of bodily pains of society. During primitive times, man must not have had clothes and must have been cold during the winter or wet during the rainy seasons. Someone must have seen this and thought that it would be nice if they got something from the trees to put around everyone, then we had cotton etc. A tailor is also a shudra. There were no houses to live in and people used to live in caves or under trees. This created the art of architects who are shudras. Therefore this system is not useless or discriminatory. It is a very logical way of thinking. Because one cannot see other’s physical troubles, he has become a shudra. Around 600 years ago people twisted this whole system and changed the meaning of shudras from shucha dravati iti shudra (one who gets sad from seeing another’s physical pain) to one whose physical situation makes us sad. People created rules such as “if these people live outside a town then they should not get water from well inside a town” or “you should carry a cloth around so you do not catch their smell”. This is the wrong meaning. A sudra is the most important part of society because without satisfying your basic physical needs, you cannot possibly satisfy your material or spiritual needs.


If you are a Hindu and someone asks you why there is caste system in place then please show them this article to eliminate their misunderstanding. If you are not a Hindu then this will have answered all your questions about the varna (not caste) system.

dogra
01 June 2013, 02:41 PM
Shyam you tube video B.GITA 4.13

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIi3VUYV8Pc

No Birth based!

Ganeshprasad
01 June 2013, 03:09 PM
Pranam Dogra

Thank you for your input, I really do not have any issue with discrimination or people making their own choice, that does not bother me. God help me if I have to make my choices based on Internet u tube and all to determine the tradition of Varna, which is and always been based on birth.
There is not a single authority on earth to decide a varna based on aptitude which could be subject to change on daily bases depending on which side of bed one got up. We know varna is for life at least that much is clear from Bhagvat Gita.

Pranam Charitra

As to your post is so out off order makes it completely irrelevant. Perhaps it would be best for anyone interested to read a bit about Gopis and Gopas who they actually were let alone mother yasoda and Nada baba and then make a judgment. It would serve us all best if you can back up what you say about them as meat eaters and all the rest, with reference from shastra.

Jai Shree Krishna

shiv.somashekhar
01 June 2013, 06:49 PM
As can be noticed, I Have asked multiple times and the dogra, Charita camp lacks the courage to admit that they consider the tradition currently followed in India (and followed for at least 3000 years) is wrong.

Hard to understand what they are afraid of. They are unable to come out and say -

1. Varna was followed differently in ancient times (more than 3000 years ago). That is, Brahmins of that time did not have gotras.

2. Since the past 3000 years, Brahmins have been following a corrupted gotra based system and now we (Charita, dogra eta al.,) are correcting the problem.

Unless, they make this admission, they are not being honest. I will ask yet again -

Can you be honest and admit you believe that the long standing tradition of hereditary Brahmanas is wrong, instead of pretending this 3000 year old tradition does not exist?

philosoraptor
01 June 2013, 07:11 PM
Charitra, you did not answer my question. Did the pontiff declare the fisherwoman's daughter a brahmin woman or not? You and I both know he did not. You should be honest with yourself, and with us, and acknowledge that this point has nothing to do with this discussion.


We need to remove all the interpolations that became a common place of occurrence in varna related verses you see.

I'm not sure who "we" is, and what the qualifications of "we" are to determine what is and is not interpolated with such confidence that "we" can tamper with the shAstra-s.



Just ponder for a second- who wrote the verses all these decades?


Vyaasa wrote the purANa-s and mahAbhArata. Vaalmiiki wrote the rAmAyaNa. The dharma-shAstra-s were written by manu and other Rishis. I'm not sure what your point is. It sounds like you are saying we cannot trust Vyaasa, Vaalmiiki, and the Rishis. Is that what you are saying? What about shrutis like chAndogya upaniShad which are unauthored, and which also point to a heredity-based varNAshrama system? Is that to be removed also?

As far as interpolated verses in smRiti are concerned, it is unlikely that anyone will be able to determine at this stage who introduced them, but that is of secondary importance. If a smRiti contradicts shruti, or contradicts a more authoritative smRiti, we can reasonably deduce that it is interpolated and give it lesser importance. Note that this is a different approach from the currently en vogue, "I don't like this smRiti because it embarrasses me in front of my Western friends, therefore it is interpolated" approach.


But then I dont want to spoil your party, maybe it serves a purpose, and so be it, you keep deluding yourself that you are 'the chosen one'. Its for others (who arent deluded) I am writing the below message.I know you dont want any of it, you need 'the fix' to keep going.

And what purpose would that serve, charitra? Whose purpose is served by stating the truth that our shAstra-s endorse a heredity-based varNAshrama system? The brahmins? Why would it matter to them? People will still hate them in any case, yourself included. Meanwhile, the materialistic brahmins who have entered secular life will have to contend with the guilt that they cannot disavow their brahminical heritage. You really think they want to give up their materialistic inclinations and endorse their hereditary duties? Seriously, charitra?

Have you actually considered thinking about what you say before you say it?



I am sure the Kanchi seer knows that the people living inthe present era in Kaliyuga made any classification of hindus altogether irrelevant.


If that is true, then why didn't Adi Shankara know it?

What evidence do you actually have that the Kanchi acharya considers varNa classification irrrelevant in Kali Yuga?

While you are struggling to answer the above two questions, check out the official Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam website www.kamakoti.org wherein they discuss their official views on matters like gender, varNa, etc. Use the "search" button and search for "caste." They are very clear and unapologetic in their view that varNa classification is heredity-based. They also reject the notion, endorsed by you, that brahmins created the dharma-shAstras for their own selfish benefit. As they rightfully point out, the dharma-shAstras impose the toughest regulations on the brahmins. It is illogical to suggest that a class of people would author legal codes for their own selfish benefit when those legal codes impose the toughest austerities on that same class.

Of course, you could just ignore the official website, as you ignored the quotes I previously provided from Adi Shankara's vedAnta commentary which endorsed the heredity-based classification. But then, that would make it rather dishonest of you to continue claiming that the Kanchi Sankaracharya decries birth-based varNa, now wouldn't it?

Dogra obviously does not feel constrained by facts. Do you? Or, like him, do you prefer to draw attention away from the facts by attributing impure motives to the people who present them, as you did above?



One has to strive to become a satvik and move away from Tamas on his/her own bymeans of following a dharmic way life. No free lunches to anyone, birth orotherwise, though some suffer from delusions of grandeur. By ones own sadhana one peelsoff those layers of ignorance that keep jeevatma in darkness.

The above is another example of Western academic/left-wing brainwashing. There is no "free lunch" for anyone in the varNa system. Brahmins have to perform severe austerities, without which they will not fulfill the expectations society as for them. Kshatriyas had to fight and even die to protect dharma. Trying to argue that the varNa system privileges some varNas over others is delusional.


Krishna CHOSE to live among the gopikas and gopabalas, the peasantswho never read any shastras, never adopted any strict regular puja rituals etc.

This has nothing to do with anything. Sri Krishna is the parama puruSha spoken of in the shruti, and the inhabitants of Vraja were privileged to have Him in their presence because of their many lifetimes of performing pious and devotional activities in previous births. Nowhere in the shAstra is it stated that the vrajavAsi-s were brahmins, nor did they have to be. Krishna loves all of His devotees, male, female, brahmin, kshatriya, vaishya, shuudra, and even outcastes who have given up their sinful habits and taken to the path of devotion.



BTW also they were meat eaters just so you all know.


I'm calling your bluff. Show me where in shAstra it is stated that the vrajavAsis were meat-eaters.

It is dishonest to project your own moral failings onto others as a means of rationalizing them.



Krishna, thus erasing themyth of this birth related classifications, associated himself with the good natured ‘average joes’ of the time.

There is no logical connection between the idea of "associating with non-brahmins" and "refuting birth related classifications." You are still proceeding from the Western misconception that heredity-based social classification necessarily implies hatred for lower classes. It is not so, as per shAstra. Sri Krishna associated with devotees of all varNas, but did not declare any of them to belong to varNas other than those of their respective births. In fact, He fully endorsed the heredity-based classification. In bhAgavatam 1st skandha, He hints to Arjuna that punishing the murderer Ashvatthaama with execution would be inappropriate being that Ashvatthaama is a brahmin. Draupadi and the other Paandavas agree with this, since Ashvatthaama's father Drona is a brahmin. Of course, Drona was a warrior by profession, but the text clearly declares him to be a brahmin despite not following his prescribed duties. In 10th skandha, Sri Krishna states that the brahmins are very dear to Him and warns His devotees never to disrespect them even if they should occasionally behave badly. This is explained in the story of King Mrga who was cursed by a brahmin over a misunderstanding. And again in the story of Mucukunda, Sri Krishna blesses him that he will be born in his next life as a brahmin; He does not promote Mucukunda to brahmin status.



HadHe so wished he would have spent his childhood in a very well known gurukulamof the era, under the watchful guidance of a great maha rishi, just as Rama didin Treta yuga.

All twice-born varNas were eligible send their children to study Vedas in gurukula. And Sri Krishna was no exception, since under Devaki and Vasudeva's care, He was sent to gurukula to study Vedas under Sandipani Muni. It was there that He met His brahmin friend Sudaama.



No, He counted that option out. His message was that thosehonest people who live among cattle and help feed others through theirprofession are to be recognized and honored with his divine presence by livingwith them in flesh and blood!

Krishna did not have a body of flesh and blood, because such a body can only be given to one who has karma, which The Lord does not have, being ever transcendental to karma, the guNa-s, etc as stated in shruti. His body is made up of pure vishuddha-sattva. Furthermore, the vrajavAsi-s were not ordinary pious individuals. Nanda and Yashodha were the incarnations of the vasus Drona and Dharaa as stated near the beginning of the 10th skandha. Other vrajavAsis were incarnations of various devas whom The Lord directed to take avatAra in order to participate in His pastimes on Earth. Still others are great devotees who had earned their birth as Krishna's associates by performing their dharmas in previous lifetimes. There are many statements in the bhAgavatam to the effect that the associates of Krishna had performed so many yagnas and tapas in their previous lives. You may also be aware of the story from the Padma Puraana in which great brahmin rishis ask Raama for the boon of becoming His wives, which He grants by allowing them to become gopikas during His Krishna-lila.

The point here, once again, is that Krishna's association with devotees was a reward for their previous activities in bhakti, and is not in any way a refutation of varNAshrama by birth, which He clearly endorses in multiple places.

[irrelevant banter deleted]


No meaningful classification would exclude over 6 billionpeople on any premise. Or do you all think Brahman/Krishna/ shiva are meant toonly handle a small chunk of land along with the inhabitants of that corner ofthe planet, and by that completely exclude the rest of the universe out oftheir care? Guess not. Clearly that’s blasphemy.

No one claimed that the varNAshrama system was meant to classify every human being on the planet. Even shAstras mention the existence of people living outside the varNAshrama culture who are outcastes who do not follow the path of the Vedas.



From the very outset Vedopanishadsare meant for ALL sentient beings, varna by birth reduces the faith to a fractionof the population. Everyone is included and defined in accordance with onesgunas. Namaste.

That is your opinion, but it is not the opinion of any of the great Vedanta commentators. As far as they are concerned, vedas are to be studied by dvija males only. This reflects the traditional view that certain austerities and discipline are required to master the veda. Meanwhile, the essence of the vedas has been distilled into the Itihasas and Puranas, and those can be studied freely by one and all, also a view endorsed by the acharyas.

Believer
02 June 2013, 12:05 AM
Namaste,

If this cow (her name is 'caste discrimination') could talk,

http://imageshack.us/a/img845/9056/cowbeingmilked.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/845/cowbeingmilked.jpg/)

it would say, I am so tired of all these people milking me!

Pranam.

ShivaFan
02 June 2013, 05:07 AM
Namaste

Regarding the sacred thread, someone mentioned women cannot wear it nor study the Veda. But is that actually true?

Shri Madhvacharya in his Mahabharatha Tatparya Nirnaya, describes the scholarly nature of Draupadi, the wife of Pandavas as:

"Great women should study the Vedas like Krishnaa (Draupadi)"

This comes from a nice article on ancient female Rishis (Rishikas), that in Rig Veda alone there are around 30 women vedic scholars (rishikas) to whom different hymns have been attributed to (it would seem odd that they wouldn't be able to read the Veda hymns as women of which they are attributed to have fostered):

http://www.hitxp.com/articles/veda/vedic-education-women-school/

Please read and enjoy.

Back to the sacred thread and Vedas, of which are three threads and worn on the body, where is this in the Vedas themselves? I assume this sacred thread is in reference to the Yajnopavitam or the thread. Where is the verse about the Yajnopavitam or sacred thread in the Vedas? I need to add this verse to my notes, but the only verse I can find is from the Dharmasutras dealing with custom, rituals and law and the oldest of which the author is Apastamba, and that is way, way, way after the Vedas and is almost modern next to the Vedas.

Anyway, going through this thread with one minute nothing is interpolations, the next minute saying maybe interpolations if it is obviously a bizarre Manu Smriti like quote, then jumping all over the place, it seems it is becoming fairly clear that 6000 jati isn't an ancient Vedic custom and so pretty much the thread has reached an end point, other than an application of the UK law may be in order in the US.

There was something about animals wearing the sacred thread, it's not worth going there and seriously there is no disrespect intended, let me be perfectly clear I am not trying to be funny, but don't be so sure that it hasn't happened such as given to a cow, I might be mistaken in this as happening in India. But that doesn't matter, I wouldn't give my cell phone to a cow. But Mother Cow is still a Mother to me even if She can't dial me up on the phone like my human Mother.

Om Namah Sivaya

dogra
02 June 2013, 07:48 AM
Hi Ganesh.

Fair enough, that is your viewpoint. The internet video of the translations of Bhagavad Gita are there for anyone to see, and the person in the video I have attended one of his lectures, so these are educated people and cannot be dismissed.
We do not follow birth based in terms of telling others in what job they should take, that is their free choice, as per our scriptures.

dogra
02 June 2013, 07:52 AM
As can be noticed, I Have asked multiple times and the dogra, Charita camp lacks the courage to admit that they consider the tradition currently followed in India (and followed for at least 3000 years) is wrong.

Hard to understand what they are afraid of. They are unable to come out and say -

1. Varna was followed differently in ancient times (more than 3000 years ago). That is, Brahmins of that time did not have gotras.

2. Since the past 3000 years, Brahmins have been following a corrupted gotra based system and now we (Charita, dogra eta al.,) are correcting the problem.

Unless, they make this admission, they are not being honest. I will ask yet again -

Can you be honest and admit you believe that the long standing tradition of hereditary Brahmanas is wrong, instead of pretending this 3000 year old tradition does not exist?

Multiple times I have asked you for scriptural injunction for birth based caste, where individual shall be of same profession as parents, which parent , and that they have no free choice. Cmon show the verses.

Hereditary system whereby Bhramins are determined by birth to bhramin parents is wrong, it is their actions and education will lead them to being a bhramin.
To say someone born to 'bhramin' automatically becomes onne by nature of birth, makes no sense, if they have not gained education and proven themselves

dogra
02 June 2013, 07:59 AM
Regarding the sacred thread, someone mentioned women cannot wear it nor study the Veda

Women cannot study Vedas, ha, what absurd nonsense.
Thanks for the link Shivafan

charitra
02 June 2013, 11:30 PM
Pranam Charitra
As to your post is so out off order makes it completely irrelevant. Perhaps it would be best for anyone interested to read a bit about Gopis and Gopas who they actually were let alone mother yasoda and Nada baba and then make a judgment. It would serve us all best if you can back up what you say about them as meat eaters and all the rest, with reference from shastra.Jai Shree Krishna

Dear Ganesh Prasadji,
We both talked once before very briefly. At that time I asked you to get in touch with some kshatriyas and get a first hand account about their dietary preferences. Have you had a chance to do that yet, I am curious to see the outcome of your research. This time I am making a similar request - please go and seek out some yadavas and have a friendly chat with them, ask them about the family dairy industry they run and their food habits etc. Sometime ago I lived in such a neighborhood myself.. They are nice people, although I must say Laalu Prasad Yadav is a character whose gaffes keep everyone entertained. Please let me have the pleasure of reading those findings on this forum. Till such time you can be charitable and avoid any speculations on those two communities or for that matter any other communities with whom you keep no social contacts. Namaste.

TrikonaBindu
03 June 2013, 12:00 AM
This comes from a nice article on ancient female Rishis (Rishikas), that in Rig Veda alone there are around 30 women vedic scholars (rishikas) to whom different hymns have been attributed to (it would seem odd that they wouldn't be able to read the Veda hymns as women of which they are attributed to have fostered)http://www.hitxp.com/articles/veda/vedic-education-women-school/


Thank you, ShivaFan, that was gratifying to read. In fact there are a few brahmins who do give sacred thread and Gayatri upadesham to women, including even women who are foreigners converted to Hinduism. I myself was blessed to receive this initiation more than 25 years ago from the late Sant Keshavadas. http://www.templeofcosmicreligion.org Sant Keshavadas has written a book Gayatri:The Highest Meditation that is available through the address given.

Thus Agniveer is not alone in admitting casteless people, including casteless women, to the study of the Vedas. :)
http://agniveer.com/sacred-threadof-pakistani-dalit-hindus

On upanayanam for girls see further: http://www.hindu-blog.com/2009/06/upanayana-samskara-for-girls-janoi-or.html

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2009-07-19/varanasi/28190441_1_women-priests-sanskrit-girls

Pranam

ShivaFan
03 June 2013, 01:03 AM
Namaste TrikonaBindu.

When I read the words ... the words and name Sant Keshavadas.. I am stunned. Let me ask you for all forgiveness, you are of the cosmos in your vision, I am not as old as you as a soul. I did not see. Both me and my wife had the blessings of this Master, I am not an initiate of Him, but oh yes I know Him. Please, if I have offended you in anyway it is only because I have always been a rascal Saiva, and will be when waiting for the Taraka mantra. Your Satguru is the Lord of Bhajans, many, many souls have sung with Him and we don't even understand what was that moment. It is not beyond the realm of possibilities, I saw you perhaps but what I mentioned was a long time ago. The sacred thread has a special meaning to me. Once I knew a Brahmin who was a pujari in Lanka, he is now gone. Once in America I accidently walked into his room, he was holding his sacred thread and doing Gayatri. I was so embarrassed.... but not him. He laughed. I will never wear the thread, nor do I chant Gayatri. I do not because it is a story. Your Master is beloved. You were there in those last days, please give us your knowledge because you are the Knower of the Brahman. Please accept my humble obeisances.

Om Namah Sivaya

TrikonaBindu
03 June 2013, 03:45 AM
Namaste ShivaFan,

If you visited the Temple of Cosmic Religion in Oakland, CA between the years (approximately) 1985-1989, it is possible we might have been at the same place at the same time. Glad to hear both you and your wife had Sant-ji’s darshan and blessings. His legacy continues to be propagated in the United States through at least a few disciples.

Now then, why would you of all people consider there’d be anything between the two of us to forgive, when you and I have had the most cordial and clarifying exchanges through posts and PMs? As for my fortunate association with Sant Keshavadas, although the learning environment he created leaves me forever in his debt, I cannot count myself as having been among his inner circle of followers. And definitely you’d be disappointed were you to attribute any special spiritual achievement to me.

Leaving that aside, to return to the topic at hand: It was not that Sant-ji was making Brahmins by conferring the yajnopavita and Gayatri mantra. In that way the situation differs from ISKCON whose (male) initiates, I am told, have Brahmin status conferred upon them. The thing was, Sant-ji was of the opinion that Gayatri initiation ought not be restricted to “the chosen orthodox Brahmin class” (here I’m quoting him), but rather it should be “the support of every seeker after Truth who believes in its efficacy, power, and glory, be he of any caste, creed, clime, or sect.” Thus, people like me are Gayatri initiates without having any association with the caste system.

To me, this is a far more radical stance than creating Brahmins, because it asserts that Gayatri Devi is not inhibited by the caste system. Having been invoked by the initiating guru, Gayatri Devi can and does bless Her devotee simply on the basis of reverent Truth-seeking, without any regard to caste status. Thus the Veda is pried free from the white-knuckled grip of those who wish to withhold the highest truths from the rest of the world.

Pranam.

ShivaFan
03 June 2013, 05:30 AM
Namaste TrikonaBindu

There was no inner circle, anyone such as yourself who met Sant Keshavadas and had the opportunity to sing bhajans with Him is an equal circle of love and not an inner circle. My apology was only in the sense that sometimes I do not see what is obvious, again it is clear you are a very old soul.

Yes you are blessed to be given and proclaim the Gayatri Mantra. I recall Sant Keshavadas speaking of it clearly. He spoke of Panduranga Vittala as well, and yes myself and close friends would with joy visit the Oakland Temple. I cannot recall the exact year the first time visit, but it had just opened, also the years you mention there is no doubt I was there visiting as well so indeed perhaps I met you. The world is very small, indeed.

I knew the Gayatri Mantra, and of course I love Her the glorious Devi, but my story is different from yours. There is no one who should be told they cannot welcome Her presence, and chant Her mantra. I welcome Her presence with joy and seeking, but why I do not chant Her mantra is not a reason for another not to.

There is a poster seen in one of the videos of a Sant Keshavadas bhajan I just now watched on YouTube of Krishna, when Keshavadas arrived in America in 1966, Prabhupad also was establishing a Bhakti presence. I once alluded in a posting on the HDF of the significance of that very Hindu poster art:

http://storage.canalblog.com/12/58/771277/57687150_p.jpg

I am a Saiva. And this is a poster of Krishna by the great artist Raja Ravi Varma. Do you recognize it? It does not matter that I am a Saiva, this very poster is of iconic significance to Hinduism in America starting in the mid-1960's. It is no surprise that this very poster also appears in the video many years later directly behind and to the right of Sant Keshavadas as bhajans are sung. All across America, this poster was cherished.

The Gayatri Mantra is the anthem of Three Worlds. Certainly all of them have a special place for you because of your strength, your balance, even your silence from which you then strike outward with strength. It is your kind that is like a bell, my apology was only in the sense that now I see where you stepped out from, I didn't know that. You are much more of an interesting person than many first realize. Indeed.

By the way, I still have some items of Sant Keshavadas from decades ago, in my storage. I will have to take the time to fetch them and share.

Om Namah Sivaya

philosoraptor
03 June 2013, 07:47 AM
Namaste

Regarding the sacred thread, someone mentioned women cannot wear it nor study the Veda. But is that actually true?

Shri Madhvacharya in his Mahabharatha Tatparya Nirnaya, describes the scholarly nature of Draupadi, the wife of Pandavas as:

"Great women should study the Vedas like Krishnaa (Draupadi)"

This comes from a nice article on ancient female Rishis (Rishikas), that in Rig Veda alone there are around 30 women vedic scholars (rishikas) to whom different hymns have been attributed to (it would seem odd that they wouldn't be able to read the Veda hymns as women of which they are attributed to have fostered):

http://www.hitxp.com/articles/veda/vedic-education-women-school/

Please read and enjoy.

Pranams,

I realize I am going to be flamed once again for insisting on a standard of honesty, but the article above does not quote Madhvacharya at all. It quotes an English sentence which is alleged to be a translation of something Madhvacharya wrote, with no exact verse numbers, so there is absolutely no way of looking it up to see if it is actually there. In other words, the author of this article may very well have taken it completely out of context, if not mistranslated it or made it up entirely. We will never know, since he was not very transparent in his citations.

If any of the revisionists would like to introduce me to Maadhva Veda scholars who are female, have sacred thread, and recite gAyatrI mantra, I would certainly be interested to correct my understanding on this point. I won't be holding my breath, however.

satay
03 June 2013, 09:34 AM
Admin Note

Enough for now...