PDA

View Full Version : Nam sankirtan and Nam japa



jopmala
19 May 2013, 01:55 AM
Pranam to all vaishnab

Throughout Chaitanya charitamrita Nam sankirtan is considered as param dharma of kaliyug and there is hardly any line where Nama japa with the help of beed is mentioned. It is not confirmed in chaitanya charitamrita that Haridas pravu used to take laksha nam on beeds. I see the vaisnab of the present day mainly vaishnab belongs to gaudiya math and mission ( ISKON etc) keep a bag of beed for japa. There must be difference between nam sankirtan and nam japa on beeds otherwise nam japa in stead of nam sankirtan would have been mentioned as param dharma of kaliyug. My point is if nam sankirtan is param dharma of kaliyug why nam japa on beeds is required . I request vaishnab be kind enough to through some light on this point.

smaranam
19 May 2013, 02:23 AM
Hari Hari bol
praNAm

Let me try to answer

1. The Kali Santarana Upanishad says "iti shoDashakam namnam kali-kalmasha nAshanam - nata parat ropayah sarva vedeshu dRshyate"
Lord BramhA shows the Hare Ram Hare KRshNa mahAmantra destroy the disturbances of Kali Yuga, and that all of Vedas say this.

2. Narad Muni says "harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam
kalau nasti eva nasti eva nasti eva gatir anyatha"

"Holy names of Hari are the only way for Kali Yug"


So far, no distinction is made as to HOW they chould be chanted (the holy names) - whether silent japa, upamshu, loud japa, with beads, with fingers, without counting, singing - kirtan, alone, with others - sankirtan -
This is a broad umbrella of how the holy names must be chanted.

Mahaprabhu also says in the shikshashtak - "one can chant any of Your million names in any way they want, but alas I have no taste fot them"

3. Because HarinAm saMkIrtan cannot be performed 24 X 7 while japa can

4. Because sankirtan cannot be performed at any place, on any street at any time, there are restrictions - social, political, medical, other - no restrictions with japa (with or without beads).

5. One is not always with a group of devotees to sing in chorus and dance all the time

6. About beads - all devotees are not very elevated like Mahaprabhu's associates, and Tulasi devi's touch (Her beads) helps them concentrate on Bhagvan

7. Every devotee is at a different stage as well as is of a different temperaments. Some are bhajanAnandi, and some like ekAnta vAs (solitude). There are times during the day when one wants to be silent. Hence silent japa - or just stare at BhagvAn all you want, don't jap - no restrictions.

8. KRshNa says in Bh Gita "Among sacrifices I am japa-yajna"
So japa is an act of yajna offered by the bhakta to the Lord. It is a sacred offering.

9. Gurus prescribe a set method, a fixed minimum no. of rounds so that it gets done during the day. Devotion is not spontaneous for all people. Not everyone starts out like Mahaprabhu's associates.


Personally i like to sing bhajans (also nam kirtan) whenever i feel like, as well as totally silent japa with/without beads - but i do not like to count so i don't.
If i do start counting (with the mAlA) i lose track of the rounds anyways.
Meru bead comes and goes. I am not recommending this to others.

(If you intend to keep track but can't, KRshNa keeps track for you - just kidding)

Bhajo re mana KAnhA. Anyhow. Live with Him, Think of Him, His Leelas, talk to Him, offer thoughts, words, behavior, to Him. dress Him up - all you want. Feed Him - all you want.

Take Him out on Chandan Yatra.
**Starting akshay tRtiyA, chandan yAtrA lasts for 21 days (until Jun 3).
Apply chandan all over His face, arms, feet so KRshNa stays cool. Take Him out in the cool breeze.
On the swing too if you can. He loves swings anytime, why wait for "Jhulan yAtrA"

Go boating with KAnhA - "SalIl vihAr"

Read Hari KathA. Tell Hari KathA...
.....
...
..

jopmala
02 June 2013, 07:07 AM
Smaranamji pranam

I like your post in HDF and I also admire your kind opinion about japa and sankirtan . we know very well that japa on beeds or otherway is followed by different types of followers even non hindus also do it but my reference is direct to chaitanya mahaprabhu ,chaitanya charitamrita and vaishnab who claims themselves to be in line of chaitanya mahaprabhu. I think mala-japa was already prevailing and practiced by people of different sampradaya of hindu dharma before mahaprabhu appeared.What kalisantarana Upanishad and Narad muni said is ok but chaitanya charitamrita says “ vyakta kari bhagabate kahe arbar / kaliyuge dharma-nam sankirtan sar” –adi 3rd . It is clearly written in chaitanya charitamrita Madhya lila 11 chapter that this nam Sankirtan is introduced by chaitanya mahaprabhu . It is also seen in various occasion that mahaprabhu always advised or ordered for nam sankirtan to his followers. When gaudiyas were to return from puri every year they used to ask mahaprabhu about sadhya-sadhan being samsari and mahaprabhu advised them vaishnab sevan and nam sankirtan. Krishna prem develops from sravan kirtan which in turn develop from sadhu sanga. I think if nam japa is sufficient for sadhan bhajan why then mahaprabhu has not advised his followers for japa instead time and again mahaprabhu advised every one for nam sankirtan which can develop Krishna prem. chanting or japa can not be termed as sankirtan . you see when Brahman offer puja to durga or kali or any other devi devata , they also chant mantras but that is not sankirtan . sankirtan is a different conception linked with sraban or hearing Here I like to quote chaitanya charitamrita. Madhya lila 21 chapter . it says like this



“ karma tapa yoga jnana vidhi bhakti japa dhayana

iha hoite madhurya durlabha

kevala ye raga-marge bhaje Krishna anurage

tare Krishna madhurya sulabha”


translation : through karma,tapa,jnana,vidhi bhakti,japa and dhayana, it is very difficult to perceive the sweetness( madhurya) of sri krishna . only ( kevala) by worshiping( bhajan) through raga marge sri Krishna madhurya can be appreciated or perceived very easily.Madhurya or sri Krishna is very important aspect of sri chaitanya mahaprabhu’s line of vaishnabism. You refered Gita for japa yajnya. I like to mention here that in chapter 9 of Gita sloka 14 which says “ satatam kirtayanto mam, yatantas ca dridhavratah”.

3. There is no need to perform harinam sankirtan 24 X 7. If you perform japa 24 X 7 then when will you do your other duties being sansari or grihi. I am taught to perform harinam in every breathing in or out .I think we can perform sankirtan 3 times at least in a day that is morning evening and night and can perform smaranam whole day even during performing other duties also.
4. NO , I am not agree with you. No one can restrict me from doing Sankirtan Mahaprabhu gave a brave fight on the restriction of sankirtan by kazi . but the point is that I can do it in my house at any time. why should I go to street or hospital for sankirtan. And if any body perform japa in street or anywhere outside house , can he do it perfectly paying due attention ? is mere japa justified ?
5. for sankirtan ,I do not think one should have a group of devotee around him . while in brindabana mahaprabhu performed sankirtan in ‘ekante’
6. chaitanya mahaprabhu or chaitanya charitamrita have not said this.
7. ok but mahaprabhu advises sadhu sanga for everybody. Sadhu sanga sraban kirtan can definitely develop prem bhakti.
9.8. prescribed set of method is not advisable for bhaktas because in that case every thing is done only for the sake of following set of method prescribed by guru. People are doing this practice for long but nothing is resulted towards Krishna bhakti. This set of method is nothing but vidhi bhakti which is not admired at all by chaitanya mahaprabhu and chaitanya charitamrita. I have seen people rising in the early morning and finished counting the numbers on beeds and relaxed for whole day . It seems that he has done the job and nothing left . Is it desirable that we should perform japa for a fixed number and nobody seems to cross the number once he reaches to the fixed number.

smaranam
06 June 2013, 05:18 AM
praNAm

First, let me say that I do hear you (understand your point).
Six years ago, I would have sounded just like you :)

I shall elaborate on this so you can relate, but before that, consider smaranam to be a 'kuTastha' (neutrally positioned entity), and a madhyastha (mediator)who is simply here as a messenger to help you see that japa was indeed a part of Mahaprabhu's tradition.

1. Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/en) Antya 3.100
nirjana (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/n/nirjana)-vane (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/v/vane) kuṭira (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/k/kutira) kari (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/k/kari)' tulasī (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/t/tulasi) sevana (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/sevana)
rātri (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/r/ratri)-dine (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/d/dine) tina (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/t/tina) lakṣa (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/l/laksa) nāma (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/n/nama)-sańkīrtana (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/sankirtana)

Haridāsa (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/h/haridasa) Ṭhākura (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/t/thakura) constructed a cottage in a solitary forest. There he planted a tulasī (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/t/tulasi) plant, and in front of the tulasī (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/t/tulasi) he would chant the holy name of the Lord 300,000 times daily. He chanted throughout the entire day and night.

(For him to count 'tina laksha', it had to be japa. Mahaprabhu advised him to cut down the count in old age but he refused. He would not sleep until he completed teen laksha. Lord was very pleased with the Chief NAmAchArya - Haridas Thakur, and respected him a lot.)

2. PROOF that Mahaprabhu chanted the Holy Names of KRshNa in japa form
CONTEXT: When the Lord was leaving on His tour of South India, Nityananda Prabhu said:

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/en) Madhya 7.37
tomāra (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/t/tomara) dui (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/d/dui) hasta (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/h/hasta) baddha (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/b/baddha) nāma (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/n/nama)-gaṇane (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/g/ganane)
jala (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/j/jala)-pātra (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/p/patra)-bahirvāsa (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/b/bahirvasa) vahibe (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/v/vahibe) kemane (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/k/kemane)

"Since Your two hands will always be engaged in chanting and counting the holy names, how will You be able to carry the waterpot and clothes?

PURPORT by Shrila PrabhupAd

From this verse it is clear that Caitanya (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/c/caitanya) Mahāprabhu (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/m/mahaprabhu) was chanting the holy names a fixed number of times daily. The Gosvāmīs used to follow in the footsteps of Śrī (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/sri)Caitanya (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/c/caitanya)Mahāprabhu (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/m/mahaprabhu), and Haridāsa (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/h/haridasa)Ṭhākura (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/t/thakura) also followed this principle. Concerning the Gosvāmīs — Śrīla (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/srila) Rūpa (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/r/rupa) Gosvāmī, Śrīla (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/srila) Sanātana (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/sanatana) Gosvāmī, Śrīla (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/srila) Raghunātha (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/r/raghunatha) Bhaṭṭa (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/b/bhatta) Gosvāmī, Śrīla (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/srila) Jīva (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/j/jiva) Gosvāmī, Śrīla (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/srila) Gopāla (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/g/gopala) Bhaṭṭa (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/b/bhatta) Gosvāmī and Śrīla (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/srila) Raghunātha (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/r/raghunatha) dāsa (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/d/dasa) Gosvāmī — Śrīnivāsa (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/srinivasa)Ācārya (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/a/acarya) confirms, sańkhyā (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/sankhya)-pūrvaka-nāma (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/n/nama)-gāna (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/g/gana)-natibhiḥ. (Ṣaḍ (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/sad)-gosvāmy-aṣṭaka (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/a/astaka) 6) In addition to other duties, Śrī (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/sri) Caitanya (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/c/caitanya) Mahāprabhu (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/m/mahaprabhu) introduced the system of chanting the holy name of the Lord a fixed number of times daily, as confirmed in this verse (tomāra (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/t/tomara) dui (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/d/dui) hasta (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/h/hasta) baddha (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/b/baddha) nāma (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/n/nama)-gaṇane (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/g/ganane)). Caitanya (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/c/caitanya) Mahāprabhu (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/m/mahaprabhu) used to count on His fingers. While one hand was engaged in chanting, the other hand kept the number of rounds. This is corroborated in the Caitanya (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/c/caitanya)-candrāmṛta and also in Śrīla (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/srila)Rūpa (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/r/rupa) Gosvāmī's Stava (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/stava)-mālā (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/m/mala):
badhnan prema (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/p/prema)-bhara (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/b/bhara)-prakampita-karo (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/k/karo)granthīn (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/g/granthin)kaṭī (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/k/kati)-dorakaiḥ
sańkhyātuḿ nija (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/n/nija)-loka (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/l/loka)-mańgala (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/m/mangala)-hare (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/h/hare)-kṛṣṇeti nāmnāḿ (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/n/namnam)japan (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/j/japan)
(Caitanya (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/c/caitanya)-candrāmṛta 16)
hare (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/h/hare) kṛṣṇety uccaiḥ (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/u/uccaih)sphurita (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/sphurita)-rasano nāma (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/n/nama)-gaṇanā (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/g/ganana)-
kṛta (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/k/krta)-granthi (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/g/granthi)-śreṇī (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/sreni)-subhaga (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/subhaga)-kaṭi (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/k/kati)-sūtrojjvala-karaḥ (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/k/karah)
(Prathama (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/p/prathama)-caitanyāṣṭaka 5)
Therefore devotees in the line of Śrī (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/sri) Caitanya (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/c/caitanya) Mahāprabhu (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/m/mahaprabhu) must chant at least sixteen rounds daily, and this is the number prescribed by the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. Haridāsa (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/h/haridasa)Ṭhākura (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/t/thakura) daily chanted 300,000 names. Sixteen rounds is about 28,000 names. There is no need to imitate Haridāsa (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/h/haridasa) Ṭhākura (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/t/thakura) or the other Gosvāmīs, but chanting the holy name a fixed number of times daily is essential for every devotee.

Right there, PrabhupAd gives all evidences - that Mahaprabhu, Haridas Thakur, the shad-Goswami (6 Goswamis) chanted japa and kept a count of the names.

REF: Chaitanya CharitrAmRt Madhya7.37, Anta3.100, Chaitanya ChandrAmRt 16, prathama ChaitanyAshTak 5, shad-goswami ashTak 6.


om namo bhagvavate vAsudevAya

continued...

smaranam
06 June 2013, 05:42 AM
continued...

1. NAm jap cleans the heart - anartha nivRtti. (end of material faults)
"cheto darpaNa mArjanam..." - Mahaprabhu's ShikshAshTak verse 1
Prem or even bhAv cannot arise without anartha nivRtti.

2. NAm jap softens the heart and not only removes vikAr (blemishes) it enhances sAttviktA (goodness) and bhAv

3. It makes you a quieter, softer person, and all the 26 qualities listed by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu as lakshaNa (qualities/symptoms) of a bhAgvat, will manifest. This is the experience of His followers - then and now.

4. It polishes the sAdhak and makes them more pleasing to KRshNa because they become more pleasing to the world. To put it in Yajvanji's words, it "infuses sattva" into the individual and the world around.

5. It brings a kanishTha bhakta from the mode of being an enjoyer (becs we want bhakti to be a fun activity always) to that of being a worshipper, a true ArAdhikA, who wants to please KRshNa (see pt. 1,2,3,4) more than to "have fun with bhakti themselves"

**By the way, if you are singing alone (in ekanta), it is called kirtan, not sankirtan. I also like to sing bhajans and nam kirtan alone, when no one around is interested.

--------
***You may not need any of these things if you are already on the platform of pure devotion. Very few are. In that case, they need the right guidance and support so that the pure devotee's spontaneous devotion is not hampered, dampened by imposing vidhi on them.

OTHERWISE, the mind is like a clever lawyer who wants to convince the bhakta-heart to simply live with Shyamsundar day and night. And believe me, Nandakishore has absolutely no problem with this. He is cool.

This is how I would think earlier:
"KRshNa is here with me, we are having a conversation, and these people are telling me I must call Him repeatedly using the same words again and again and after calling or addressing Him, not say anything. Just repeat the name. How silly! What will KRshNa say?
'Put that mAlA down. I am talking to you and you are ignoring Me and simply chanting My names"

OR, the phone anology - chanting japa = calling KRshNa on the phone.
If this is so, why do we keep dialing again and again and not speak?

:)

KRshNa, who is my first and Adi Guru, never prescribed any such thing for me. He is cool. If we are always together, why bother with something formal like japa?


Over the years, our love matures, becomes more selfless and we understand and accept that japa has its place. We start revering and also loving this mode of devotion.

_/\_

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

jopmala
10 June 2013, 08:17 PM
Pranam

Smaranamji ,I am all along maintaining a difference between nama japa and nam sankirtan . I have already pointed out that japa is an old method followed by not only Hindus but other religions also. Islam Christian Buddhist every religion has the tradition of japa. Japa is not introduced by chaitanya mahaprabhu. But sankirtan is introduced by chaitanya mahaprabhu. Only vaishnab in the line of chaitanya mahaprabhu is required to follow Sankirtan . vaishnab other than chaitanya line does not do sankirtan . you know very well how the associates of mahaprabhu were abused by Brahmins and kazi’s men for newly introduced sankirtan dharma. The Brahmins used to teach that nam sankirtan was against scriptures .

Now if you are to suggest that there is no difference between japa and sankirtan it will be your view so its ok. My line of thinking on japa and sankirtan is quite different from you. You have cited lines from chaitanya charitamrita . you have said Haridas thakur and mahaprabhu used to chant on beeds for tine laksha counts but you have not followed that the word is there “sankirtan” not “japa”. In chaitanya charitamrita nowhere you can show me that the word japa is mentioned with either mahaprabhu or Haridas thakur or chaitanya’s parikars. You should not take it granted that the word japa was unknown to them or sri Krishna das kaviraj who has written chaitanya charitamrita has made a mistake by writing sankirtan in place of japa. What ever they used to do , it is known as sankirtan not mala japa on beeds. I would like to remind you what Haridas thakur told the woman who came to defame him in anta lila 3rd chapter stanza 222 to 227

Sankhya nam sankirtan ai mahayajna mane
Tahate dikshita aami hoi ratri dine

Yabat kirtan samapti nahe na kari anya kam
Kirtan samapti hoile hoy dikshar vishram

Dvare basi suna tumi nam sankirtan
Nam samapta hoile kariba tomar priti acharan

We know japa is not done by some one with loud voice to enable other to hear but here Haridas thakur is telling her to listen to his nam sankirtn by sitting on the door step . Is it japa at all done by Haridas thakur as claimed by you ? So everywhere it is mentioned sankirtan not japa . The transformation of sankirtan into japa by vaishnab of present day is questionable. I do not understand whether you are suggesting me to accept japa on beeds as sankirtan ? Tell me any line from chaitanya charitamrita where it is written that chaitany mahaprabhu and his parikars used to japa with tulsi beeds ? . Have you read anywhere Swarup damodar or Ramananda who were close to mahaprabhu engaged in japa activities ? You have mentioned that mahaprabhu used to japa but we see mahaprabhu keeps his hands upwards during sankirtan. How then he will count on beeds. In anta lile 14th chapter stanza 50 says :

Krishner bioge gopir das dasa hoy
Sei das dasa hoy prabhur uday

Ai das dasaya prabhu vyakul ratri dine
Kabhu kaun dasa uthe sthir nahe mane

Sab ratri mahaprabhu kare jagaran
Uchcha kari kare Krishna nam sankirtan

In anta lila 11th chapter stanza 22 When chaitanya mahaprabhu asked Haridas thakur to reduce his counts due to illness, just follow what the lines say :

prabhu kahe kaun byadhi kaha to nirnoy
tinho kahe sankhya sankirtan na puraya”.

So where have seen Haridas thakur used to japa on beeds ?

kaliyug is for nam sankirtan not nam japa .

I am not differentiating between kirtan and sankirtan. My point is sankirtan and japa. You have suggested that devotees of chaitanya mahaprabhu must chant at least sixteen rounds daily but I have already told that I have not been taught to nam japa on beeds although I belong to the line of chaitanya mahaprabhu’s vaishnab dharma.Whatever you mention in support of japa that it clears our mind etc. chaitanya charitamtira does not mention any of these in the name of japa but of course it mentions sankirtn can do a lot to us to develop Krishna prem.

Lastly in your concluding para (pure devotion) you suggest not to bother japa or any vidhi . ok you may think so but Here I can not go with you. Because being a vaishnab in the line of chaitanya mahaprabhu I have to follow what chaitany charitamrita suggests . In 3rd chapter adi lila “ sakal jagate more kare vidhi bhakti// vidhi bhaktye braja bhava paite nahi sakti”, “ apani achari bhakti sikhaimu savare” . 4th chapter adi lila says “ rag marge bhakti loke karite pracharan” “ ei dware kariba sarva bhakatare Prasad // brajer nirmal rag suni bhaktagan // rag marge bhaje jeno chadi dharma karma” , “ apani achari bhakti karila prachar” “ abatari prabhu pracharila sankirtan” , “ ati gudha hetu sei trivid prakar // damodar swarup hoite jahar prachar” “ rag marge bhakta bhakti kare je prakare // taha sikhaila lila acharan dware” You see these two types of bhakti has been described by chaitanya mahaprabhu himself and every time he prefers raganuga bhakti to vidhi bhakti. Mahaprabhu appeared to preach and teach rag bhakti not vidhi bhakti which was already there in the practice. Rag bhakti is chaitanya mahaprabhu’s contribution to the vaishnab world . If you do not bother vidhi and rag then why should you bother to become a vaishnab. There are So many ways to follow( shaiva, tantrik etc) but I have bothered to become a vaishnab. Since I belong to the line of vaishnab dharma introduced by chaitanya mahaprabhu I have to follow chaitany charitamrita. I have not been taught to go with jap tapa brata ( ekadasi brata) puja yajna which are all followed in vidhi marg.

brahma jijnasa
10 June 2013, 09:36 PM
First of all according to scriptures yuga dharma for kali yuga is chanting the holy name of the Lord. This can be done in any way as japa, sankirtan whatever.

Secondly, japa has been prescribed for the followers of Sri Caitanya.
Thus in Caitanya Caritāmṛta:

Madhya 6.258 (http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/6/258/) :

'śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya śacī-sūta guṇa-dhāma'
ei dhyāna, ei japa, laya ei nāma

Madhya 24.337 (http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/24/337/) :

śańkha-jala-gandha-puṣpa-dhūpādi-lakṣaṇa
japa, stuti, parikramā, daṇḍavat vandana

Madhya 22.123 (http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/22/123/) :

parikramā, stava-pāṭha, japa, sańkīrtana
dhūpa-mālya-gandha-mahāprasāda-bhojana

regards

smaranam
11 June 2013, 04:46 AM
praNAm

For the record,
1. I never said Haridas Thakjur and Mahaprabhu chanted ON BEADS. I said they kept a COUNT of the names.

2. I never said nam sankirtan and nam jap are the same thing.

More on this in the next post.

---------

About raag and vaidhi bhakti maarga.

Mahaprabhu asked Rup to write about raag and Sanatan to write about Vidhi. Jiva focused on philosophy.

No doubt there is
a) raag marga -- Either spontaneous devotion or near-spontaneous in footsteps of pure devotees in Vraj
b) vaidhi maarga --- devotional service following regulative principles from scriptures and spiritual master
Depending on the sAdhak, the right approach may be prescribed.

Who is vaidhi bhakti for?

Madhya 22.109
rāga (http://vedabase.net/r/raga)-hīna (http://vedabase.net/h/hina) jana (http://vedabase.net/j/jana) bhaje (http://vedabase.net/b/bhaje) śāstrera (http://vedabase.net/s/sastrera) ājñāya (http://vedabase.net/a/ajnaya)
'vaidhī (http://vedabase.net/v/vaidhi) bhakti (http://vedabase.net/b/bhakti)' bali (http://vedabase.net/b/bali)' tāre (http://vedabase.net/t/tare) sarva (http://vedabase.net/s/sarva)-śāstre (http://vedabase.net/s/sastre) gāya (http://vedabase.net/g/gaya)

It is for those who do not have raag - attachment for KRshNa. What is attachment to KRshNa?

Herein lies the problem. Many will try to tell you that your attachment is actually bogus, from the material world, sense-gratification, etc.
So what is the litmus test? That you remain steady on your path. Your own confidence coming from KRshNa Himself. Your surrender. Your detachment from the material world, your not being emotionally involved in the world.
Can you stay in manas-VRndAvan (in the mind) with KRshNa most of the time?
Does this sound like you? - http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/23/en

If one is more attached to the relationships in this world than to KRshNa, they are advised vaidhi bhakti. It is not that easy. It is not something less or low. It is wrong to say Mahaprabhu advised raag bhakti for everyone.

Even for those following vaidhi maarg, the idea is to inculcate raag internally while executing the external limbs of bhakti.
One's attitude towards the Deity and the external limbs is what matters.
e.g. Raag overflowing during Deity Worship diminishes the vidhi. If you are giving KRshNa an abhishek, making a garland of fragrant flowers, taking Him out on the swing, cooking for Him, or even chanting names, do it with anuraag, with love, as if you are in Vrja dham! Don't do it for the sake of rituals (vidhi, steps).

In this way, it is possible to graduate to rAgAnuga bhakti.

Hare KRshNa

smaranam
11 June 2013, 12:46 PM
Back to topic on counting HarinAm (kirtan and jap)
(For discussion on raag marg and vaidhi marg, please see post above)


Acc. to PrabhupAd, Mahaprabhu counted KRshNa nAma on His fingers, not beads (one hand was used to count the names and the other hand to count the rounds.) , based on this line:

tomar dui hasta baddha nAma gaNane.

What is "gaNane" ? to count.

Has anyone ever heard of counting during sankirtan? I haven't. Repeating the name and keeping a count is japa. Be it loud, upamshu or silent (maun).

Then he shows other places that use the words japa and gaNane.

Śrīnivāsa (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/srinivasa)Ācārya (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/a/acarya) confirms:
sańkhyā (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/sankhya)-pūrvaka-nāma (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/n/nama)-gāna (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/g/gana)-natibhiḥ.
(Ṣaḍ (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/sad)-gosvāmy-aṣṭaka (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/a/astaka) 6)

What is sankhyA-purvak? SankhyA means number. Keeping a count of the number of times one chants the name.

Śrīla (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/srila)Rūpa (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/r/rupa) Gosvāmī's Stava (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/stava)-mālā (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/m/mala):
badhnan prema (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/p/prema)-bhara (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/b/bhara)-prakampita-karo (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/k/karo)granthīn (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/g/granthin)kaṭī (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/k/kati)-dorakaiḥ
sańkhyātuḿ nija (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/n/nija)-loka (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/l/loka)-mańgala (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/m/mangala)-hare (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/h/hare)-kṛṣṇeti nāmnāḿ (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/n/namnam)japan (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/j/japan)
(Caitanya (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/c/caitanya)-candrāmṛta 16)

hare (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/h/hare) kṛṣṇety uccaiḥ (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/u/uccaih)sphurita (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/sphurita)-rasano nāma (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/n/nama)-gaṇanā (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/g/ganana)-
kṛta (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/k/krta)-granthi (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/g/granthi)-śreṇī (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/sreni)-subhaga (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/s/subhaga)-kaṭi (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/k/kati)-sūtrojjvala-karaḥ (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/k/karah)
(Prathama (http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/p/prathama)-caitanyāṣṭaka 5)

Those interested, please note sankhyAtum, nija-loka-mangala,
hare-krishNeti, nAmnAm japan, rasano, nAma-gaNana.

The Goswamis executed 'namnam japan' , for "nija-loka-mangal" , i.e. to set a good example for their own associates, followers as well as to spread transcendence. Note also, the word 'rasano' They did it rasa-purvak. They took ras in it. Smaranam (internal) was simultaneous with their japa(external).

Goswamis were sakhis in Vraj. They did not need japa. They did it, and led extremely austere lifestyles to set a good example for people. (Like KRshNa says in BG - I don't have to work, but If I don't, people will follow My example and perish).


Hare KRshNa

jopmala
16 June 2013, 09:37 PM
Pranam

I do not know where chaitanya mahaprabhu told sanatan to write about vaidhi marg and told rup to write about rag marg. But I know rup,swarup damodor and ramananda were rasa tattva betta and mahaprabhu’s vaishnabism is based on rasa .I would like to mention that vaidhi marg already there in the practice before chaitanya mahaprabhu’s appearance in nabadwip. Vaidhi marg is not new but it is chaitanya mahaprabhu who introduced rag marg for vaishnab. Mahaprabhu described in detail the two types of sadhan bhakti i.e. vaidhi and rag and it is also clearly mentioned in chaitany charitamrita that chaitanya mahaprabhu has appeared for rag bhakti . chaitanya charitamrita adi lila 4th chapter line-14 :

ye lagi avatara kahi se mul karan
prem ras niryas karate aswadan
rag marg bhakti loke karate pracharan

sarbovom pandit also taught some lessons to king prataprudra in Madhya lila chapter 11th lines-100 of chaitanya charitamrita on rag marg. In chapter 6th of Madhya lila line-202 mention how mahaprabhu gave sarbovom pandit prasada in one early morning even before he got himself fresh after leaving bed. Can People in vaidhi marg ever think of taking anything even Prasad just after leaving bed and before getting fresh by washing mouth etc ? so there is huge difference in practice between rag marg and vaidhi marg and mahaprabhu himself taught rag marg (apani achari) still some people are preaching and teaching vaidhi marg by going just against chaitanya charitamrita and chaitanya mahaprabhu. Chaitanya charitamrita nowhere mentions that before practicing rag marg one has to learn and practice vaidhi marg rather clearly mentions that vaidhi marg can not help us to achieve our goal i.e. braje krishna Chandra ( madhy lila 8th chapter line-183 of chaitanya charitamrita). I think there should be no difference of opinion that in chaitanya charitamrita vaishnabs are clearly instructed to follow rag marg. But at present how vaidhi marg has got much importance than rag marg is required to be questioned. Who taught that vaidhi marg must be followed before one practice rag marg ? we should read chaitanya charitamrita carefully and come to conclusion which is best for us. In my case, I am practicing rag marg without having any touch of vaidhi marg from the very beginning.

So far japa and sankirtan are concerned. If you agree that there is a difference between japa and nam sankirtan then you have to acknowledge that chaitanya charitamrita never teaches to practice nam japa. Chaitanya charitamrita says nam sankirtan is the religion of kaliyug. Chaitanya mahaprabhu and his associates are never found in chaitanya charitamrita to practice japa on beeds. They did sankirtan. Regarding your view on ‘ganane’ , I would like to say that if counting was so important to mahaprabhu why he himself forgot this problem which nityanandh prabhu had to remind him . should we to believe that chaitanya mahaprabhu forgot the most important job krishna nam japa which he always taught other to follow. while we see haridas prabhu counted fixed noumbers but there is no any such word in chaitanya charitamrita about mahaprabhu. If counting of a fixed number is so important then why mahaprabhu asked haridas prabhu to decrease his numbers. More over mahaprabhu took so many trips to tirthya but no such problem was reported in other occasions. Some time mahaprabhu did something to maintain his sannyasi dharma for himself which he never taught others to follow. He never taught even to become sannyashi for practicing vaishnab dharma rather he always prefers to grihi vaishnab. Chaitanya mahaprabhu instructs many times in favour of nam sankirtan and not a single time in favour of nam japa.


Conclusion : 1) chaitanya mahaprabhu taught rag marg but Gaudiya math and mission ( ISKON etc) taught vaidhi marg.
2) chaitanya mahaprabhu never instruct for nam japa on beeds or in other form but gaudiya math and mission ( ISKON etc) taught nam japa

Why going against chaitanya mahaprabhu ?

jopmala
23 September 2013, 09:18 PM
I would like to share my experience with regard to one of my friends who is a vaishnab under Gaudiya vedanta samiti ( a branch of Gaudiya math and mission by bhakti sidhanta saraswati). I see him doing things like nam japa and regular puja doing ekadashi brata etc and always eat only prasada after his puja to his ista devta. one member of his family belongs to another vaishnab sampradaya of Navadwip ( worshiper of sudarshan). Recently gurudev from navadwip ( sudarshan sampradaya) has visited my friends house and offered bhog to his thakur who is offered bhog by my friend regularly. I am shocked to see that my friend did not take the prasad of bhog given by gurudev of nabadwip only because they belong to different sampradaya. my friend offered separate bhog to his thakur and took prasad. I do not understand how there is defference in bhog prasad of the same thakur offered by two different people from two different vaishnab sampraday. To my utter surprise my friend told me that whatever he did, he did on the advice of his Maharaj whom my friend contacted in the mean time. can you believe it ?