Question about "heavy ocean on top of me" situation [Archive]

MarkMe

19 May 2013, 05:19 AM

Namaste,
I am wondering about my heavy ocean situation. I've had no ego since Spring of 2010, but this turned out to be a lesser overall development than I had originally surmised, and so not any other development, such as an ocean of bliss. That happened for a couple of hours back in 2010, where I was just swimming in it, but that ended. My personal self ended the day before that, unmistakably so, but without bliss. (I didn't know that was possible) I have been incapable of internal conflict ever since, and the old ego-experiencer of things is just not there.

While swimming in that bliss, I had a problem with my (it seems) 'new self' not wanting there to be smoking, but there was this urge, and it was like dickering back and forth for some kind of a deal to cut back and eventually quit in exchange for not being angry about the smoking. (I am curious as to how to understand and put what went on in that)

Since that time, I've gotten into a couple of situations where I was practically being crushed under what seemed like a big river or ocean, like it was on top of me. I have a fear of not being able to handle the energy of it, and maybe exploding if I let it in.

So what I ultimately would like to do is get some of these thoughts aligned with their Hindu-put counterparts and figure out what these things are called and what has been said about them, and what I really am facing in these situations.

Thank you for any assistance. :-)
- Mark

MarkMe

19 May 2013, 10:59 AM

Namaste,
I think perhaps it would help to provide a few extra details about myself. I found my liberation through mostly pure analysis, solving puzzles and answering questions on blank paper. I do not have a strong background in other practices. There has been some karma yoga, some service, and many years ago some samkhya and meditation, but for example, I have not meditated in quite a few years.

I once read "don't take the path of the philosopher", but it didn't say why. I think I know why. It seems to me that I have done this, and that this has produced a lop-sided result. Sure, I solved a puzzle, but it seems that on matters of state or condition and of habits that I have done much less. I would warn regarding this path, because I think it can be problematic to start up new habits without ego-impetus.

And so now I wonder about "crushing heavy weight on me" situations, and as to whether or not I can handle whatever it is, as lop-sided or underdeveloped in some ways, or if I would be crushed, or if it was not on top of me but in me then perhaps I would explode, and so I have been trying to avoid getting into this situation. I am even concerned about meditation with the thought that I might get closer to this situation. I was watching a swami on youTube a couple of years ago, and my face got pressed flat into my desk, and it felt like a lot of weight on top of me.

So I guess I could say that I don't want to get crushed or exploded to death or anything like this.

TIA -
Mark

MarkMe

19 May 2013, 11:44 AM

I was just doing some searching and jogged my memory of experiences I have also had on a dozen occasions over the past 20 years that I did not relate to this. It appears I have experienced precisely what is described as "sleep paralysis" when going into a sleep state. If I could get my eyes open, it would be enough to break the spell. For me, since I tend to lie on my stomach, it has occurred as a crushing weight on my back (but when going into dream state), and almost as though it is an entity bearing down on me.

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/08/sleep_paralysis/

I did not associate the two types of incidents, because I was wide awake for the other situations mentioned previously.

yajvan

19 May 2013, 04:21 PM

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast�

First one needs to be mindful that knowledge and experience compliment each other. One supports ( and grooms) the other so this lop-sideness gets balanced.

Let's be certain first of your experience of Self. Is Self there all the time ? Wake, dream and during sleep ? This is coined by many as 'Self Referral'. That is, all other things that are going on in the world is activity, yet you are grounded in the Self. This Self is the ~ocean~ of silence, of peace. Varying degrees of this occur.

Let's start there ...

iti śivaṁ

MarkMe

19 May 2013, 06:28 PM

yajvan

19 May 2013, 07:23 PM

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast�

Namaste Yajvan,
Thank you for your consideration. I would have to say "no" to that. Not in deep sleep.

So, let me test my understanding... This 'Self' is your regular experience in wake & dream. Yet is not stabilized (as yet) in deep sleep, correct ?

Also please take a few minutes to consider this string:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6901

iti śivaṁ

MarkMe

19 May 2013, 08:03 PM

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast�

So, let me test my understanding... This 'Self' is your regular experience in wake & dream. Yet is not stabilized (as yet) in deep sleep, correct ?

Also please take a few minutes to consider this string:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6901

iti śivaṁ

Thank you - I have looked at the list of 'stops' there. Perhaps "some knowledge" is a regular experience, and "self-awareness" is something I did experience for a couple of hours. But this is not how I understand putting things.

It seems as though the condition which began in 2010 was very confined - ignorant - body-seeing, but as I say, experiencer-less and without internal conflict, and it seems silent or like nothing at all in itself, and also knowing of some larger things. Somehow, the trees are wonderful, for example.

To be clear, Yajvan, it seems earthly and ignorant. If I dream, I don't know it. When I'm in deep sleep, I don't know it. But I know more - I've experienced more. When awake, I feel as if I'm nothing and experiencing a (edit:) relatively superficial body (which I still experience).

The day after this new condition began, I had a moment of eye contact with my beloved dad, and then I had to go down on the floor for a couple of hours, and there was swimming in bliss, but then that ended. It involved what seemed like a new, joyous self coming into the body and having to learn to work the arms and legs, but, that ocean of bliss experience ended. There were twists I would have ever expected. At one point, a little beeper went off in the central nervous system and said "time for a cigarette", and then it was as though my joyous new self got very angry, and then it got sad, and there were tears, and then there was the idea of cutting back as some kind of a deal. And then that experience ended, returning to the nothing-like self mentioned above.

Could this be a very undeveloped state of egolessness? This is what I have been wondering.

MarkMe

19 May 2013, 08:28 PM

(continued - added detail). There was the first day in which it seemed my first-person point of perspective ended. This was relatively uneventful - no bliss or anything like that, but I felt that I knew what had happened - that my previous first-person was gone - *poof*.

For however uneventful it was, there was also a tiny 'snap' or 'pop' sensation at the very moment of the poof, which I later traced to the location of the thalamus. What was then left was, as I say, seemed like a mundane kind of no-self - to this day.

MarkMe

20 May 2013, 12:15 AM

Vannakkam: So this previous 'I' was replaced with a new 'I' which then will be replaced with another new 'I', and so on and so on?

Aum Namasivaya

It's language. What else do you do? Remove the "I' from when you speak? You could put things in so many ways, but frankly, I think you make it sound like you missed your yoga class this morning.

smaranam

20 May 2013, 05:03 AM

MarkMe

20 May 2013, 08:11 AM

praNAm MarkMe

I get the feeling that from time to time you reach temporary vairAgya* (state of desirelessness and free of tendency of any resolve, motivation) regarding everything else except for the cigarrette (owing to habit of anna-prANa kosha). Also, in another sense the ego attached to the smoking is there. If it wasn't, you wouldn't get angry because [a part of] you wanted to smoke a cigarrete. This sAttvic ego says "I am not supposed to smoke" (which is good in the long run)

Regarding EGO: Acc. to VaishNav schools, you do not lose the most basic true ahaMkAr* (basic existential ego), but one must lose the false-ego (which is all about me, mine, makes resolutions to do things for oneself (sva-sankalpa*), which expects praise, resents blame and criticism, etc.). Here, serving the Will of the Supreme Person is treated as an exception to the sankalpas. (i.e. divine sankalpa = no sankalpa)

From what you have said it looks like you have almost lost the false-ego, but not the basic existential ego, which is why Eastern Mind reads the "my" and "I" in the posts. (by the way he was refering to himself as "this ignorant fool", not to you.)
If we cannot communicate without these words (I, my), it must mean we cannot lose the most basic existential ego at least as long as we communicate. Wanting to communicate is also a sankalpa.

Letting go of all and any tendency for sankalpa (keeping goals, wanting to do this and that - no matter how good the intention may be) can perhaps lead to that state of being under the heavy ocean.

If that is not a very desirable state (at least as of today), then holding onto the Supreme Person via self-less devotion can keep one out of the need for any other sankalpa in this world, except bhakti (devotion - which need not be in/of this world). However, as long as the body lives, some sankalpa will be there, it will finally taper off.

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

_________
*vairAgya = absence of desires and absence of resolution (resolve) of any kind
*ahaMkAr = "I" ness, ego
*sankalpa (saMkalpa) = resolve

Smaranam,
Thank you for these details I will have the opportunity to study. My first reaction is that I have to go to work, so just to say for now, wow! This gives me a direction of where to look next. I am thankful for that.

I have been fooled by something, for sure. The sense of not experiencing internal conflict seems quite compelling to me. I have also interpreted (guessed) the negativity I have experienced as badness - bad programming but not internal conflict. I feel like I haven't experienced that, but that I have embodied it. It has been difficult, because things have seemed so different, and now, for the past 3 years, I have enjoyed some kind of a lack of internal pain, but not, as you point out, some kind of I. It has been like I lost something, and I have not known what.

I must ask, I made the point about 'I' and language. For example, you start by saying, "I get the feeling...", and this strikes me as an example of how it seems to me there is no way to avoid this when communicating. I recall being told such concessions would have to be made to communicate. How do you feel about this?

---------------------------
Eastern Mind,
I think that you have written correctly, and that I have read it backwards. I apologize for this waste of time.

charitra

20 May 2013, 08:21 AM

Namaste,

If I have understood your post right, subconsciously you maybe experiencing the much talked about ‘ two bird theory‘: ….One of the most famous hymn is Rg-Veda 1:164.
Among the celebrated elements from it, most people will know the simile of the two birds, one eating and the other just looking on (later a parable for the ego and the Self);
the first division of the circle in 12 and in 360…..

Shankaracharya in the recent past ( in the hindu timescale) and long before him, among other ancient texts, both Mundaka and Swetasavatara Upanishads also have clearly referenced the same concept:

Two birds, united always and known by the same name, closely
cling to the same tree. One of them eats the sweet fruit; the
other looks on without eating.

Seated on the same tree, the jiva moans, bewildered by its
impotence. But when it beholds the other, the Lord worshipped
by all and His glory, it becomes free from grief.

Only you can identify if the above analogy can explain your own frame of mind, whilst others would have to use a lot of imagination and speculate,
on the nature of the waves of wisdom that are washing off the ‘me’ attribute of your core being (your Self).
On an aside, the one acharya that made the phrase ’ iam an ignorant fool ‘ a very popular way of doing away with his own ego, in the very recent times,
was none other than Ramakrishna parama hansa himself. The venerated guru had almost on a daily basis used to say this in front of his own followers
..Sorry if I have gone off the trajectory by not understanding your post, in which case you may ignore this post.

Eastern Mind

20 May 2013, 09:41 AM

It's language. What else do you do? Remove the "I' from when you speak? You could put things in so many ways, but frankly, I think you make it sound like you missed your yoga class this morning.

Vannakkam: I'm truly sorry I have offended you by entering the discussion. I went back and deleted the previous posts. Clearly there are others far more knowledgeable than me for you to discuss with. Best wishes.

Aum Namasivaya

yajvan

20 May 2013, 10:42 AM

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast�

To be clear, Yajvan, it seems earthly and ignorant. If I dream, I don't know it. When I'm in deep sleep, I don't know it. But I know more - I've experienced more. When awake, I feel as if I'm nothing and experiencing a (edit:) relatively superficial body (which I still experience).

The day after this new condition began, I had a moment of eye contact with my beloved dad, and then I had to go down on the floor for a couple of hours, and there was swimming in bliss, but then that ended. It involved what seemed like a new, joyous self coming into the body and having to learn to work the arms and legs, but, that ocean of bliss experience ended. There were twists I would have ever expected. At one point, a little beeper went off in the central nervous system and said "time for a cigarette", and then it was as though my joyous new self got very angry, and then it got sad, and there were tears, and then there was the idea of cutting back as some kind of a deal. And then that experience ended, returning to the nothing-like self mentioned above.

Could this be a very undeveloped state of egolessness? This is what I have been wondering.

So, we need to go slow here... many will wish to partipate in this conversation - that is fine. But lets go slow so one ( you and the reader) get max. benefit from the conversations at hand...
First, lets get one thing out of the way - let's not concern ourselves about smoking. We will leave this for another time. A great muni of our time śrī nisarga-datta maharāj smoked and it is neither here or there. I am not promoting it, its just not worth the effort at this point.

back to the conversation
If this experience of Self is there during wake, this is good. If it lost during dream and sleep , then it has not fully ripened.

Now the question - do you wish to develp this sense of Self all the time? Or are you just trying to understand the experience you had?
This helps me better understand your intent.

iti śivaṁ

smaranam

21 May 2013, 05:41 AM

I must ask, I made the point about 'I' and language. For example, you start by saying, "I get the feeling...", and this strikes me as an example of how it seems to me there is no way to avoid this when communicating. I recall being told such concessions would have to be made to communicate. How do you feel about this?

*First, with this post, we can leave this topic here, so it does not come in the way of conversation between you and YajvanJi.

I was not making any conscious attempts to avoid the first person at all. What you are refering to is called 'vyavahAr' - to conduct "worldly transactions" or "vyavahAr" one has to play that role, and the pronouns have to be used, yes. It does not necessarily mean we have false-ego.

Further (as an aside), calling out to the Lord as "me" and "You" is something divine that makes divine use of this existential ego, and it is most welcome in that case. THAT is not the 'vyavahAr' mentioned above. That falls in a divine category.

If you are refering to this that i said:

If we cannot communicate without these words (I, my), it must mean we cannot lose the most basic existential ego at least as long as we communicate. Wanting to communicate is also a sankalpa.

The intention behind writing this was to show how basic our pure ahaMkAr is to existence, and it was an attempt to show the two different egos(false-ego and real pure existential ego)

For one to 'appear to' lose the existential ego completely, they would have to be in an avadhUt-like or python-like state all the time (glimpses/moments of which you seem to have seen?)- and not respond to external inputs from the world. Even in that state it is said that the existential ego is never vanquished, only dormant.

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

MarkMe

21 May 2013, 07:05 AM

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
So, we need to go slow here... many will wish to partipate in this conversation - that is fine. But lets go slow so one ( you and the reader) get max. benefit from the conversations at hand...
...
If this experience of Self is there during wake, this is good. If it lost during dream and sleep , then it has not fully ripened.

Now the question - do you wish to develp this sense of Self all the time? Or are you just trying to understand the experience you had?
This helps me better understand your intent.

iti śivaṁ

I have wanted to understand the experiences I have had and the state or position I am in now.

Two birds, united always and known by the same name, closely
cling to the same tree. One of them eats the sweet fruit; the
other looks on without eating.

Seated on the same tree, the jiva moans, bewildered by its
impotence. But when it beholds the other, the Lord worshipped
by all and His glory, it becomes free from grief.

I will fit a response to this in with the information I would like to provide the discussion at this point.

3 years ago, I had these experiences... The first was the sense of knowing that a 'first-person' originally there was then gone, along with the little 'pop' in the thalamus. The second was the couple hours of swimming in bliss the following day.

In the context of the two birds, I responded to my situation in respect to a few points of consideration. I made a point of facing the world instead of facing God; that I would use my mind in the world as a good use of this "lop-sided" organism, and I would take it upon myself to complete a project which contributes to the world that "my previous first-person" had been working on since year 2000, since it was not completed at that time.

That being said, one thing that has been described at this point is a very worldly and not so very spiritual experience. I was initially really surprised at how tiny or insignificant the initial 'pop' was. Other things have changed. Satisfaction occurs under any circumstance on some level.

And I think it is an interesting point as to the loss of some part or kind of ego, but clearly not some other part or kind. I am struck by the level of permanent relative satisfaction, as combined with an ongoing "I" experience, as I recognize NOW, seemingly at some other level than before. At this point, it just does not occur the same, or have the same implications. It is as if there is some level of a lack of conflict and a persistent satisfaction which does not include the loss of ego-I.

I can embody anger and negative emotions, but I feel as though I cannot experience them so directly, as before. (I will mention a science theory below) In the past 3 years, I have been struck on occasion by the sense of negative emotion as combined with a lack of inner conflict, but this cannot be the case, eh?

In my thinking, there have been fears of a couple of things. One is a fear of turning to God and losing the need to complete the project which began 13 years ago. The other has been to not be able to handle a higher energy, as characterized by the experiences of being crushed by some great weight. I have some fears on the idea of developing further.

One last thing... Based upon these experiences as I have described above, it has occurred to me to define whatever it was I lost differently than the standard definitions of ego. Particularly with the 'pop' in the thalamus, I have hypothesized an ego-like function of the human physical organism, where something like a governor-function, which contains its own rules and structure, or manipulated mind, also acts as an internalized first-person point of perspective, and which may lend itself to discovery in medical science. I hope that is not too much of a tangent in relation to the rest. I do not know how much people are aware of their brain activity, but I first took a curiosity and development in being consciously aware of these things around 20 years ago. (I would like this development documented)

To sum, I have to confess to having made a choice to face the world, and not God. I have held a fear of losing a worldly concern, and a fear of not being able to handle higher development. I have also experienced a degree of satisfaction with a loss of impetus for change. This discussion has also triggered renewed inspiration, for the first time in 3 years, on the course of investigating further into understanding my current state, as well as participating in further development. I have experienced ignorance of my current state and beyond.

It has been a different 3 year period than the 21 years before it. For all of those 21 years, it felt as though I had a puzzle that had to be solved. Then, it seemed as though I had completed it, and no longer felt any such need. For example, I always tended to have blank paper and pen to think, but I haven't done that in the past 3 years. At this moment, I enjoy a new sense of direction in further learning and development (with fears also being stated).

smaranam

21 May 2013, 07:43 AM

. Particularly with the 'pop' in the thalamus, I have hypothesized an ego-like function of the human physical organism, where something like a governor-function, which contains its own rules and structure, or manipulated mind, also acts as an internalized first-person point of perspective, and which may lend itself to discovery in medical science.

Namaste

I felt that 'pop in the crown a few years ago (2007 perhaps) but KRshNa was already with me then i.e. had had several more interesting divine experiences before that which came from "another source", a higher divine source not in the normal intellect-mind.

Anyways, with this 'pop' i instantly reached the very peaceful state of not caring at all - or actually not worrying about anything AT ALL. Complete lack of anxiety over anything. I see that was KRshNa's mercy.

While the presence of KRshNa in itself had made me fearless and worriless, this pop seemed to add on to that.
For half an hour/ an hour that afternoon i not only did not worry, but i did not care about anything at all.

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

MarkMe

21 May 2013, 08:05 AM

Namaste

I felt that 'pop in the crown a few years ago (2007 perhaps) but KRshNa was already with me then i.e. had had several more interesting divine experiences before that which came from "another source", a higher divine source not in the normal intellect-mind.

Anyways, with this 'pop' i instantly reached the very peaceful state of not caring at all - or actually not worrying about anything AT ALL. Complete lack of anxiety over anything. I see that was KRshNa's mercy.

While the presence of KRshNa in itself had made me fearless and worriless, this pop seemed to add on to that.
For half an hour/ an hour that afternoon i not only did not worry, but i did not care about anything at all.

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

Smaranan,
That is fascinating to me, and very reassuring to me that I am not isolated there. :) For me, it was in the center of the sphere of the head (center between the front of the ears), and it was the first time I had a feeling in that location. Since that time, there have been occasions of some kind of beam of energy from there to the top of my head, but no sense beyond that. It seemed like the shape of a flashlight beam, and to have an obvious need to continue past the physical head, and that perhaps I had no sense of the ethereal beyond that, and only the physical part was in the domain of my perception.

I am off to work now and I will be back before tomorrow.

yajvan

21 May 2013, 10:03 AM

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast�

There are a few things that are interesting to consider. First it is noble for you to try and figure out what occurred in years past. Yet the thing about the past is, well its the past. The experience was given to you for your use.
Now, lets just say you do understand your experience to a level of satisfaction that meets your expectation. Then what ? If that experience does not compel you further then one has passed up a diamond thinking it to be a rock.

So, what then is there to do ? Like many that have these experiences they are missing the knowledge that compliments the experience - not just for comprehension but for 'next steps'. It is like a road map. One sees where one wishes to go , then compares the map to the road signs that are called out on the map. Oh yes, this is the way... I see the store that is called out on the map... the bridge that is indicated. Like that one proceeds.
Now when one travels and does not understand where they are going , then its easy to be baffelled. They can mistake the bridge for something other then what it is. They may think they are in New York, but may be in Deli.

So, as far as I can tell your introspection is a worthy cause. Yet in my opinion you may wish to consider what is next. Some get to this point and turn back and go home. Others keep to the path.

So, what of your experience ? Based upon your wording , your nervous system allowed you to entertain the transcendent and activity at the same time. This is a very natural thing when it occurs but foreign to many , as it is not part of ones daily reference point. This level of awareness is the basis of all other levels of consciousness a person experiences. It is the foundation. When it is developed to its fullest extent it changes the world for that person. When it is not developed to its fullest and experienced now and then, then the person is compelled to find out what it was ( or what it is).

So, for you as a human-being you need to decide what to do with the gift given to you. Unfold it, or just try and understand it. One choice makes it blossom, the other keeps it in the background. as with all humans you have a choice. Choose well.

iti śivaṁ

MarkMe

21 May 2013, 06:08 PM

hari om
~~~~~

There are a few things that are interesting to consider. First it is noble for you to try and figure out what occurred in years past. Yet the thing about the past is, well its the past. The experience was given to you for your use.
Now, lets just say you do understand your experience to a level of satisfaction that meets your expectation. Then what ? If that experience does not compel you further then one has passed up a diamond thinking it to be a rock.

So, what then is there to do ? Like many that have these experiences they are missing the knowledge that compliments the experience - not just for comprehension but for 'next steps'. It is like a road map. One sees where one wishes to go , then compares the map to the road signs that are called out on the map. Oh yes, this is the way... I see the store that is called out on the map... the bridge that is indicated. Like that one proceeds.
Now when one travels and does not understand where they are going , then its easy to be baffelled. They can mistake the bridge for something other then what it is. They may think they are in New York, but may be in Deli.

That sounds exactly right for me, Vajvan. For 3 years, I have stopped and wondered where I am, without a good idea of where to go from X.

So, as far as I can tell your introspection is a worthy cause. Yet in my opinion you may wish to consider what is next. Some get to this point and turn back and go home. Others keep to the path.

So, what of your experience ? Based upon your wording , your nervous system allowed you to entertain the transcendent and activity at the same time. This is a very natural thing when it occurs but foreign to many , as it is not part of ones daily reference point. This level of awareness is the basis of all other levels of consciousness a person experiences. It is the foundation. When it is developed to its fullest extent it changes the world for that person. When it is not developed to its fullest and experienced now and then, then the person is compelled to find out what it was ( or what it is).

So, for you as a human-being you need to decide what to do with the gift given to you. Unfold it, or just try and understand it. One choice makes it blossom, the other keeps it in the background. as with all humans you have a choice. Choose well.

iti siviam

OK. I did express some fears. I don't suppose the fear of some higher energy is well-founded? I may be manifesting the heavy weight situation out of fear in thought, for example? I think I can trust God with whether or not pursuing the project mentioned is a good idea, and how. God knows, I've been giving it little attention.

I know this discussion has given me the ability to find new direction into the future. I still have to spend time with it, and with some of the Sanskrit terms and concepts in it, and make them mine. Any old concepts I was working with did not work with my experience. As I said, I wanted to document something, which I still find interesting to learn more about, but I also have energy for this new direction.

Thank you,
Mark

MarkMe

21 May 2013, 09:24 PM

For one to 'appear to' lose the existential ego completely, they would have to be in an avadhUt-like or python-like state all the time (glimpses/moments of which you seem to have seen?)- and not respond to external inputs from the world. Even in that state it is said that the existential ego is never vanquished, only dormant.

Namaste,
Are you (and perhaps others) responding to my worded claim of egolessness, as most formally defined (and understood)? To be clear, I hope that the words I have shared have shown differences between how I would describe my experience and how one might define the term.

I do not recall any inability to respond to external inputs.

MarkMe

21 May 2013, 10:51 PM

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
If this experience of Self is there during wake, this is good. If it lost during dream and sleep , then it has not fully ripened.

Now the question - do you wish to develp this sense of Self all the time? Or are you just trying to understand the experience you had?
This helps me better understand your intent.

iti śivaṁ

Given time, I finally read the words right. I do not know if I should claim an experience of Self at all. That is why I try to make my own statements, and I hope I do not get tangled up in bad semantics, and produce bad communication.

Is interacting in text like trying to fit a camel through the eye of a needle?

Swimming in bliss - sure, there was that for a couple of hours, but Self? What's that? Does it say, "I am Self, now you know who I am"? Is Self in reference to the joyous me that rushed into my body that day? That Self did not say who or what it was. On that basis, I do not think of myself as having known such a thing. Perhaps, but nobody said such a thing.

Any awareness at all is when awake, not when dreaming or in deep sleep. I have tried to describe a mundane satisfaction and lack of inner conflict. This is not how I remember it before. Previously, I experienced inner pain from inner conflict. Now, I experience things that could be regarded as better or worse, but I don't participate in those experiences directly. I know the feeling of wanting things to be different than they are. I know what it means for me to say, "darn", and to act that out, as I would say "by way of programming", but I don't care about it. Some people say (philosophically), "It's all good", but I say, "It all doesn't matter".

And I am experiencing the body - no doubts there. I feel physical pain, and I don't like the way that that feels. I would choose to get out of that. I like tasty, nutritious food, and I think and act out fears. I don't see how all of this is possible according to a strict definition of some greater existence. I think I'm full of crappy programming/habits; I would prefer not to be. I fear being held back by not being clean enough (like the smoking).

Is there no place in dharma philosophy for earthly satisfaction without enlightenment? Perhaps I am easily satisfied, and in a circumstance where a more developed soul would continue to be dissatisfied. Perhaps 26% of the population feels the way that I do. I am open to more. In this satisfaction, I think it is logical to want to grow. I have read of greater things - beyond body altogether. That is something I would like to do. Such desires seem logical, but satisfaction makes them not compelling. Nothing is compelling. Nothing has inner impetus. But everything is nothing, and beyond the body - simply a good thing.

Necromancer

22 May 2013, 08:30 AM

Namaste, MarkMe.

I saw this thread a while ago and waited for others to respond, since my 'Yoga Teacher Days' are very long ago and I was looking for the best way to respond to you.

I agree with you that the use of "I" or 'self-relating terms' in everyday usage of the English language is essential to try and communicate with others, even when one has subdued their ego...so yes, I also get slightly annoyed when semantics come into play regarding this issue..but nonetheless..

I also agree with yajvan, who says that 'many people would stop there'.

The very first thing my Yoga/meditation teacher ever taught me...the very first words that were ever said to me, went something along the lines of:

"In meditation, you will experience a lot of weird sensations...see bright lights and weird colours and even believe you have reached the goal and subdued your ego...ignore it!. This is only your mind still playing tricks on you. Always say to your mind "okay then, thanks for that, but when you are done, let's move on, shall we?" and continue with your meditation".

No doubt you have experienced something and what that is, or the extent of it is personal and we wouldn't know...even if you describe it...but there's more...there's always more to it...or else you wouldn't (probably wouldn't who knows) be posting here.

They say "if you see Buddha on the road, kill Him" and I try and live by that philosophy.

I have seen Lord Shiva "on the road"...but I really don't want to kill Him because I like walking with Him to whatever destination He leads me. I am fully aware that once I 'kill' Lord Shiva, there will be no turning back for me from that point on and the whole idea of that just terrifies me.

So, for now, just ignore it and continue to meditate. If you worship any form of Deity, ask for their guidance also.

All the best with your future practices.

Aum Namah Shivaya

yajvan

22 May 2013, 12:33 PM

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast�

... but Self? What's that? Does it say, "I am Self, now you know who I am"? Is Self in reference to the joyous me that rushed into my body that day? That Self did not say who or what it was. On that basis, I do not think of myself as having known such a thing. Perhaps, but nobody said such a thing.

It would be helpful to get a handle on this part of the conversation...
Note that Self does not say ' I am Self' as this Self is the real you. So, if it introduces itself to you, it is not another , it is your own real Being. Get to know the notion of Being a bit more and this may assist you. Consider this post ( albeit a bit advanced in its offer).
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=11402

The notion of 'Self' has confused many for some time. If I had my own way I perhaps would use another term - more of Universal Self would be more apropos - again this is not another, but your real state of existence. This is what our sanātana dharma will bring to conversation. This knowledge is quite profound and takes more then one 'sitting' to get aligned to it; but once one 'gets it' it becomes a reference point for understanding.

Let me ask an uncomfortable question ( but still needs to be asked). During this time period you mentioned, did you or were you a user of any recreational drugs or psychotropic medications ?

iti śivaṁ

MarkMe

22 May 2013, 08:47 PM

Namaste, MarkMe.

I saw this thread a while ago and waited for others to respond, since my 'Yoga Teacher Days' are very long ago and I was looking for the best way to respond to you.

...

The very first thing my Yoga/meditation teacher ever taught me...the very first words that were ever said to me, went something along the lines of:

"In meditation, you will experience a lot of weird sensations...see bright lights and weird colours and even believe you have reached the goal and subdued your ego...ignore it!. This is only your mind still playing tricks on you. Always say to your mind "okay then, thanks for that, but when you are done, let's move on, shall we?" and continue with your meditation".

No doubt you have experienced something and what that is, or the extent of it is personal and we wouldn't know...even if you describe it...but there's more...there's always more to it...or else you wouldn't (probably wouldn't who knows) be posting here.

They say "if you see Buddha on the road, kill Him" and I try and live by that philosophy.

Absolutely right. Something happened, and I don�t know what.

I have seen Lord Shiva "on the road"...but I really don't want to kill Him because I like walking with Him to whatever destination He leads me. I am fully aware that once I 'kill' Lord Shiva, there will be no turning back for me from that point on and the whole idea of that just terrifies me.

That reminds me of what I said posting here � �afraid of not handling the energy�. A fear of what may be the big, final loss of self, in my case, in the form of a physical manifestation of mental anxiety, which in my experience can be very tricky stuff. Actually, since I had a spell of beyond, it turns out to be a blessing that helps support the simple understanding of, �What energy? I did that already�.

So, for now, just ignore it and continue to meditate. If you worship any form of Deity, ask for their guidance also.

All the best with your future practices.

Thank you, and I will also say thank you to everyone who has participated in this discussion. I�m sure it has taken patience and kindness to have done so.

I am coming to this same conclusion as well. I�m picking up a sense of direction, and of the new, great challenges that await. I find this to actually be a good feeling.

MarkMe

22 May 2013, 09:05 PM

It would be helpful to get a handle on this part of the conversation...
Note that Self does not say ' I am Self' as this Self is the real you. So, if it introduces itself to you, it is not another , it is your own real Being. Get to know the notion of Being a bit more and this may assist you. Consider this post ( albeit a bit advanced in its offer).
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=11402

The notion of 'Self' has confused many for some time. If I had my own way I perhaps would use another term - more of Universal Self would be more apropos - again this is not another, but your real state of existence. This is what our sanātana dharma will bring to conversation. This knowledge is quite profound and takes more then one 'sitting' to get aligned to it; but once one 'gets it' it becomes a reference point for understanding.

I would not, at this point, plan on thinking "Self" without individuation.
I reference the paper I wrote which infers this condition in this thread (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=10847).
You were very helpful in Hindu equivalents for A, E, and I. :)
Thank you.

edit-add: Actually, shortly after these experiences, I joined this forum, and called myself 'MarkMe'. The first part is 'Mark' the name of the individuated little self. The second was "Me", which was without all of that - just "Self".

Let me ask an uncomfortable question ( but still needs to be asked). During this time period you mentioned, did you or were you a user of any recreational drugs or psychotropic medications ?

No. Neither.

- Mark

MarkMe

23 May 2013, 07:50 AM

It would be helpful to get a handle on this part of the conversation...
Note that Self does not say ' I am Self' as this Self is the real you. So, if it introduces itself to you, it is not another , it is your own real Being. Get to know the notion of Being a bit more and this may assist you. Consider this post ( albeit a bit advanced in its offer).
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=11402

The notion of 'Self' has confused many for some time. If I had my own way I perhaps would use another term - more of Universal Self would be more apropos - again this is not another, but your real state of existence. This is what our sanātana dharma will bring to conversation. This knowledge is quite profound and takes more then one 'sitting' to get aligned to it; but once one 'gets it' it becomes a reference point for understanding.

You know, I find it funny that over the course of discussion in this thread, that at a couple of points in it, I found it disconcerting that references were made to the blissful experience and not the experience I was speaking out of. The blissful experience came the day after the experience of the little 'snap' or 'pop' in the center of the head. By the day of the bliss, I had already started to develop a new mental framework for being some ego-less dude.

And I come to see that because the blissful experience lasted for only a couple of hours and then ended, that I put this as somehow being rejected to continue to have it, or that I was not worthy of it, so that was how I interpreted it, therefore; I probably became afraid of not being worthy of any higher self or existence.

From the Awareness, Existence, Individuation model, jajvan, I think we say the same thing. I started many years ago with A and E from my idea of purusha and prakriti. I then derived I for individuation as an effect of the simultaneity of of A and E. So everything there is is

Awareness upon Individuated Existence

Or, as one poster pointed out, Self turning in upon itself would be A turning in upon A, or if facing creation at all, would include the I aspect, or an existence-ego.

And there is no Individuation (parapara) in awareness upon awareness, or Self upon Self.

Necromancer

23 May 2013, 08:13 AM

I would not, at this point, plan on thinking "Self" without individuation.
I reference the paper I wrote which infers this condition in this thread (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=10847).
You were very helpful in Hindu equivalents for A, E, and I. :)
Thank you.

edit-add: Actually, shortly after these experiences, I joined this forum, and called myself 'MarkMe'. The first part is 'Mark' the name of the individuated little self. The second was "Me", which was without all of that - just "Self".

No. Neither.

- Mark
Namaste.

On Yoga Forums, my name is/was 'nobody'.

Very nice name when people say 'nobody cares' or 'nobody is interested'.

I was taking full advantage of my user-name at any opportunity of over-generalization...

It was also meant to represent the formless "I"...like "who are you?" "why, I am "nobody".

It worked well for a time, until I started describing my experiences with Lord Shiva on a forum full of Atheists...

Then, it was like "nobody is stupid" and it was pointed out that my user-name failed to commensurate with my 'lack of humility'.

Oh yes, if you have experienced anything you can't speak about it, because it immediately invalidates any experience you've had...assuming you've experienced anything in the first place!

I learned my lesson and left that forum 6 months ago...never to return.

I am 'nobody' on there.

Aum Namah Shivaya

yajvan

23 May 2013, 11:44 AM

Necromancer

23 May 2013, 12:09 PM

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namast�

We look at the wonderful questions and observations that Markme has offered the forum. It supports the knowledge that appears in the pratyabhij�āhṛdayam� , 12th sūtra , found therein; it says:

tadaparij�āne svaśaktibhirvyāmohitatā saṁsāritvam | 12

This says,
to be the saṃsārin� (saṁsāritvam) or the one that goes from birth-to-both means to be bewildered or perplexed (vyāmohitatā�) by one's own powers (śaktibhiḥ) on account of the complete ignorance (aparij�āne�) of that (tad)

What is 'that' or tad ? It is the authorship of the 5 fold act that the Supreme is always engaged in. What are these 5 things ?

sṛṣṭi - manifesting
sthiti - maintaining
saṁhāra - reabsorption
vilaya or concealment of His essential Universal nature
anugraha - divne grace which allows the Self to reveal itSelf to itSelf.That is, being human, we are somewhat perplexed on our status. We have an experience that is significant; the experience gives us a small glimpse of our real nature and we are not sure what occurred.

This is not a bad thing , or, are we to find any fault. It is now up to the individual to move forward and unfold one's real status or let it remain dormant until a future date.

iti śivaṁ
words

pratyabhij�āhṛdayam - this is twenty sūtra-s written by kṣemarāja-ji . It is the nectar ( or condensed version) of utpaladeva-ji's Īśvarapratyabhij�ā which offers 199 sūtra-s
saṃsārin - attached to mundane existence ; moving far and wide
vyāmohita - bewildered, infatuated.
aparij�āne - means 'not flashing forth'; not aware of
Namaste, Yajvan.

Very nicely expressed. I can actually understand this post. :)

Throughout my life, I can count 6 times (if I am counting) I've had a 'glimpse into my true nature', however, like you said, I am not certain what has occurred...well, I am 'pretty certain' of it, but during times of hard dhyan meditation...the concentration is so intense, one can only hold it very briefly....not even for a second.

I have never gone through that door though, even though I have peered inside...something always holds me back and I have reached the conclusion that I am 'just not ready'.

I've decided to 'put it off for a later date'...it's something I shall probably revisit on my deathbed.

For now, I continue to worship Lord Shiva and there's no doubt in my mind He is there, guiding me through His love.

Aum Namah Shivaya

MarkMe

24 May 2013, 06:50 AM

On Yoga Forums, my name is/was 'nobody'.
...
if you have experienced anything you can't speak about it, because it immediately invalidates any experience you've had...assuming you've experienced anything in the first place!

No doubt everyone is busy trying to destroy everything? That is my recollection of my first 21 years of inquiry. After all of this, I wondered... What about all of this reality? It's as fantastic and as busy as all of the things I have been destroying. I think the things to destroy are like a layer in a layered jello desert, and when the layer is destroyed, it is time to move on to the next one.

It is now up to the individual to move forward and unfold one's real status or let it remain dormant until a future date.

I think that seems to be just about it. :)

Moving along seems to me to be still, in a sense - really, to be, and to open and allow being to infiltrate and have its way with everything...

What is 'that' or tad ? It is the authorship of the 5 fold act that the Supreme is always engaged in. What are these 5 things ?
sṛṣṭi - manifesting
sthiti - maintaining
saṁhāra - reabsorption
vilaya or concealment of His essential Universal nature
anugraha - divine grace which allows the Self to reveal itSelf to itSelf.

... In all the ways of "tad".

Necromancer

24 May 2013, 07:29 AM

I think the things to destroy are like a layer in a layered jello desert, and when the layer is destroyed, it is time to move on to the next one.
Namaste.

Has this got anything to do with the 5 Koshas being like the layers of an onion we must peel before it makes our eyes water?

Annamaya kosha – the physical self, or “food body”
Pranamaya kosha – the energy body, composed of Prana, or vital energy
Manomaya kosha – the mind, including both the thoughts and the five senses
Vijnanamaya kosha- the intellect and ego, the knowledge of our identity or “I-ness”
Anandamaya kosha – the bliss body, a reflection of the Atman, or true Self
The five koshas operate as one system, giving rise to the self and the multitude of ways we experience being human.

Aum Namah Shivaya

MarkMe

24 May 2013, 07:46 AM

Namaste.

Has this got anything to do with the 5 Koshas being like the layers of an onion we must peel before it makes our eyes water?

Annamaya kosha – the physical self, or “food body”
Pranamaya kosha – the energy body, composed of Prana, or vital energy
Manomaya kosha – the mind, including both the thoughts and the five senses
Vijnanamaya kosha- the intellect and ego, the knowledge of our identity or “I-ness”
Anandamaya kosha – the bliss body, a reflection of the Atman, or true Self
The five koshas operate as one system, giving rise to the self and the multitude of ways we experience being human.

Aum Namah Shivaya

I just wondered the same thing. Well, actually I was thinking about being a yoga (philosophy) student, where every time someone comes forward with something, it needs to be destroyed, i.e. found to be false. After the 21 years of these experiences, for me, what strikes me is that there is as much reality to be embraced as there is/are the things to be destroyed. So the layer is all the contrivance on top of all the real. And then, I suppose the real will have to go, too, like another layer. :)

Edit-add: Re: The real: "The existence"

Necromancer

24 May 2013, 10:48 AM

I just wondered the same thing. Well, actually I was thinking about being a yoga (philosophy) student, where every time someone comes forward with something, it needs to be destroyed, i.e. found to be false. After the 21 years of these experiences, for me, what strikes me is that there is as much reality to be embraced as there is/are the things to be destroyed. So the layer is all the contrivance on top of all the real. And then, I suppose the real will have to go, too, like another layer. :)

Edit-add: Re: The real: "The existence"
Namaste.

It is human nature to want to be 'right' all the time...even when it comes down to cryptic concepts without any form of physical 'proof'...i.e Philosophy...God...Brahman and whatever else our puny minds can conceptualise.

It is just another manifestation of ego to 'destroy' things or think there's anything to be 'destroyed' when perhaps it's just the ego just needs 'destroying'...

Yes, I know it sounds confusing and absurd and I used to have all these pointless arguments with others that always went nowhere...with me always asking 'how so'? when others tried to 'destroy' my arguments and/or my own sense of 'self confidence'.

Now, I totally annoy and exasperate other people so much without even trying to.....without any disrespect or ill-will on my part simply by being 'non-confrontational'...simply by saying 'if you say so' and allowing others to believe whatever they will anyway without having to subscribe to their beliefs and theories and not enforcing my own either...in one word, I am totally boring!

Others tell me they are only 'wasting their time' with me and I actually enjoy wasting other people's time and I tell them so.

Thus, I am ignored by most people because they realise they 'cannot win' with me. It's like they are bashing their head against a pillow.

When one has achieved this, one gets socially extricated and isolated by choice and, in essence, 'destroying' what makes them a human being in the process..

Leaving one time to focus on their own sadhana and devotions.

Aum Namah Shivaya

MarkMe

24 May 2013, 07:28 PM

It is human nature to want to be 'right' all the time...even when it comes down to cryptic concepts without any form of physical 'proof'...i.e Philosophy...God...Brahman and whatever else our puny minds can conceptualise.

Namaste Necromancer,

This is a picture from the A-E-I document (http://coopassembly.org/CNA-philosophy.htm).

http://coopassembly.org/real-imaginary.gif
As depicted: Right and wrong are one thing, but real is entirely another. All of right and wrong are purely imaginary. All of mind is above and beyond anything real that it may attempt to reference. But isn't this what happens? I think of the ego as working with 'stuff' in an imaginary realm, where it thinks it governs the world. As such, I think ego is also a sock-puppet.

It is just another manifestation of ego to 'destroy' things or think there's anything to be 'destroyed' when perhaps it's just the ego just needs 'destroying'...

Yes, I know it sounds confusing and absurd and I used to have all these pointless arguments with others that always went nowhere...with me always asking 'how so'? when others tried to 'destroy' my arguments and/or my own sense of 'self confidence'.

Now, I totally annoy and exasperate other people so much without even trying to.....without any disrespect or ill-will on my part simply by being 'non-confrontational'...simply by saying 'if you say so' and allowing others to believe whatever they will anyway without having to subscribe to their beliefs and theories and not enforcing my own either...in one word, I am totally boring!

Others tell me they are only 'wasting their time' with me and I actually enjoy wasting other people's time and I tell them so.

Thus, I am ignored by most people because they realise they 'cannot win' with me. It's like they are bashing their head against a pillow.

When one has achieved this, one gets socially extricated and isolated by choice and, in essence, 'destroying' what makes them a human being in the process..

If I don't do all of the legwork in expressing myself in words, then people tell me they don't understand anything that I'm saying. I think I understand what you are saying, like it were something I do say and agree with, but I don't feel like I can be sure... The ego needs destroying. The idea of destroying anything real is just a thing that needs to be destroyed. Eh? Maybe I've read you all wrong.

The layered desert I am thinking of is the real as one layer, and the concept of the real as another layer over it, where the conceptual layer is what student-teacher activities tend to try to route out (in terms of the falsehoods), leaving only the real layer.

Leaving one time to focus on their own sadhana and devotions.

I think everyone walks alone. That is certainly how I take my position. I think this is true regardless of the groupie-type effort that is so often drawn upon.

Necromancer

24 May 2013, 11:02 PM

If I don't do all of the legwork in expressing myself in words, then people tell me they don't understand anything that I'm saying. I think I understand what you are saying, like it were something I do say and agree with, but I don't feel like I can be sure... The ego needs destroying. The idea of destroying anything real is just a thing that needs to be destroyed. Eh? Maybe I've read you all wrong.

....

I think everyone walks alone. That is certainly how I take my position. I think this is true regardless of the groupie-type effort that is so often drawn upon.
Namaste, Mark.

You haven't read me all wrong as there's really no way to 'read me' through preconceived notions.

I guess I am just anti-social in a huge way and attempting to socialize (even if I could manage that) is totally irrelevant because it's detrimental to Self and practice.

Who needs other people 'destroying things'? Who needs other people anyway?

Many have told me they would kill themselves if they had to live my life...I tell them that I was born like this (which I was).

It is like when one is born blind or deaf...there's nothing to get 'used to' because it is all that person has ever known since birth and their other senses heighten in response to that.

When one is born with the inability to interact with their peers, other things overcompensate and heighten in response to that too.

I would probably kill myself if I had to live my life like other human beings..so shallow...so petty...so insecure...

Why I was born here, now and in this form, Shiva only knows (and I often pray to Him and question Him about that).

Your diagram and explanation is very insightful and interesting. I thank you for it.

Take care now.

Aum Namah Shivaya

MarkMe

25 May 2013, 07:29 PM

Namaste Necromancer,
I've heard it said, and enjoyed the expression...

It is better to understand than to be understood.

brahman

01 June 2013, 06:11 AM

Dear MarkMe,

Quite interested to hear what you say. The situation sounds complex and fascinating at once.

Mark wrote: �as an ocean of bliss�

Such mystical experiences are usually expressed by adding an optional 'prefix' like Ocean; why is it so?

Ocean of consciousness, ocean of unconditioned bliss, ocean of infinite potentials etc...

Love:)

MarkMe

01 June 2013, 07:39 AM

Dear MarkMe,

Quite interested to hear what you say. The situation sounds complex and fascinating at once.

Mark wrote: “as an ocean of bliss”

Such mystical experiences are usually expressed by adding an optional 'prefix' like Ocean; why is it so?

Ocean of consciousness, ocean of unconditioned bliss, ocean of infinite potentials etc...

Love:)

Well I just love Brahman... :)

For me, it has been the best description I could muster. Like total immersion, or swimming in some kind of bliss-fluid; swimming on the inside and out; like falling (or plunging) completely into all-bliss-fluid.

Edit-add: Many years ago, there were moments - a number of occasions of falling out of myself, and into some transcendent place, or point of perspective. In this incident, I should say, it was as if (the above) came into me, and I was totally immersed in it.

Kalicharan Tuvij

01 June 2013, 09:06 AM

MarkMe namaste

It is Supermind.

regards

brahman

02 June 2013, 06:24 AM

Well I just love Brahman... :)

For me, it has been the best description I could muster. Like total immersion, or swimming in some kind of bliss-fluid; swimming on the inside and out; like falling (or plunging) completely into all-bliss-fluid.

Edit-add: Many years ago, there were moments - a number of occasions of falling out of myself, and into some transcendent place, or point of perspective. In this incident, I should say, it was as if (the above) came into me, and I was totally immersed in it.

Dear MarkMe,

Went through your writings repeatedly to comprehend its contents.

Though it is beautifully conveyed, the requirement remains incomprehensible.

-------------
-------------

While it is true that there are references elsewhere in wisdom writings to the long number of years of discipline in the form of meditation or study that should precede the attainment of higher wisdom, it is not the quantity of the actual time required but of the qualitative content of the wisdom , when it comes, if at all.

The Absolute asserts itself in a different fashion; it is not a slow evolutionary process, but an overwhelming experience in one�s own life.

When the result of 5+5 is seen in mechanistic fashion it is 6, 7, 8, 9, and then comes the sum number 10, but the result is so spontaneous in mathematics and it comes from natural feelings without constraint.

Upanishads, the ancient of the Indian scriptures, uses the latter methodology, replacing the numbers by �The Word�.

-------------
-------------

Mark wrote: Is there no place in dharma philosophy for earthly satisfaction without enlightenment?

Yes, if one asks so.

Our life is the very expression of the divine, and as such is to be exalted rather than transcended. Where spiritual novices try to kill off their own desires, the Seers want us re-attune ourselves to the �unmoved-mover� which is the source of the �pure-act�, shimmering at the heart of every aspect of life, including our needs and desires.

The way the Absolute manifests is through each individual desire. In the desire we can see the mark of the Absolute. So all desires are to be seen in the Absolute, and the Absolute is to be seen in each desire.

It may be just the eye caressing a flower or the finger giving a tender touch of loving care, but we should be able to see in it the coming together of the essence of our life with the totality. The individual essence and the cosmic essence merge into one another. What pulls these two together is desire again, an endearment; but it is that which brings us to the ultimate perfection.

However, of all earthy pleasures for human beings and other animals, the one that most excels is when a couple is in the deep embrace of love, experiencing organic ecstasy.

But the scriptures say that experience is as nothing compared to the coupling of the cream of our intellect with the Self in the cosmic embrace. When that happens it is as if we have all embraces of the world. We are in eternal union. It is this eternal union with the Self that we should see reflected in all other forms of embrace. Love:)

These aren't left unnoticed:

I have a fear of not being able to handle the energy of it.

if it was not on top of me but in me then perhaps I would explode, and so I have been trying to avoid getting into this situation.

It involved what seemed like a new, joyous self coming into the body and having to learn to work the arms and legs, but, that ocean of bliss experience ended.

I felt that I knew what had happened - that my previous first-person was gone - *poof*.
What else do you do? Remove the "I' from when you speak?

For the past 3 years, I have enjoyed some kind of a lack of internal pain, but not, as you point out, some kind of I. It has been like I lost something, and I have not known what.

I must ask, I made the point about 'I' and language. For example, you start by saying, "I get the feeling...", and this strikes me as an example of how it seems to me there is no way to avoid this when communicating. I recall being told such concessions would have to be made to communicate. How do you feel about this?

And I think it is an interesting point as to the loss of some part or kind of ego, but clearly not some other part or kind. I am struck by the level of permanent relative satisfaction, as combined with an ongoing "I" experience, as I recognize NOW, seemingly at some other level than before. At this point, it just does not occur the same, or have the same implications. It is as if there is some level of a lack of conflict and a persistent satisfaction which does not include the loss of ego-I.

That means, ego-I is completely lost, which is equivalent to ignorance, because

there have been fears of a couple of things. One is a fear of turning to God and losing the need to complete the project which began 13 years ago. The other has been to not be able to handle a higher energy, as characterized by the experiences of being crushed by some great weight. I have some fears on the idea of developing further.

That is fascinating to me, and very reassuring to me that I am not isolated there. For me, it was in the center of the sphere of the head (center between the front of the ears), and it was the first time I had a feeling in that location. Since that time, there have been occasions of some kind of beam of energy from there to the top of my head, but no sense beyond that. It seemed like the shape of a flashlight beam, and to have an obvious need to continue past the physical head, and that perhaps I had no sense of the ethereal beyond that, and only the physical part was in the domain of my perception.

And I am experiencing the body - no doubts there. I feel physical pain, and I don't like the way that that feels. I would choose to get out of that. I like tasty, nutritious food, and I think and act out fears. I don't see how all of this is possible according to a strict definition of some greater existence. I think I'm full of crappy programming/habits; I would prefer not to be. I fear being held back by not being clean enough (like the smoking).

That reminds me of what I said posting here � �afraid of not handling the energy�. A fear of what may be the big, final loss of self, in my case, in the form of a physical manifestation of mental anxiety, which in my experience can be very tricky stuff. Actually, since I had a spell of beyond, it turns out to be a blessing that helps support the simple understanding of, �What energy? I did that already�.

And I come to see that because the blissful experience lasted for only a couple of hours and then ended, that I put this as somehow being rejected to continue to have it, or that I was not worthy of it, so that was how I interpreted it, therefore; I probably became afraid of not being worthy of any higher self or existence.

MarkMe

02 June 2013, 06:26 PM

Dear MarkMe,

Went through your writings repeatedly to comprehend its contents.

Though it is beautifully conveyed, the requirement remains incomprehensible.

I apologize, and I don't know why.

...

Mark wrote: Is there no place in dharma philosophy for earthly satisfaction without enlightenment?

Yes, if one asks so.

Our life is the very expression of the divine, and as such is to be exalted rather than transcended. Where spiritual novices try to kill off their own desires, the Seers want us re-attune ourselves to the ‘unmoved-mover’ which is the source of the ‘pure-act’, shimmering at the heart of every aspect of life, including our needs and desires.

The way the Absolute manifests is through each individual desire. In the desire we can see the mark of the Absolute. So all desires are to be seen in the Absolute, and the Absolute is to be seen in each desire.

It may be just the eye caressing a flower or the finger giving a tender touch of loving care, but we should be able to see in it the coming together of the essence of our life with the totality. The individual essence and the cosmic essence merge into one another. What pulls these two together is desire again, an endearment; but it is that which brings us to the ultimate perfection.

However, of all earthy pleasures for human beings and other animals, the one that most excels is when a couple is in the deep embrace of love, experiencing organic ecstasy.

But the scriptures say that experience is as nothing compared to the coupling of the cream of our intellect with the Self in the cosmic embrace. When that happens it is as if we have all embraces of the world. We are in eternal union. It is this eternal union with the Self that we should see reflected in all other forms of embrace. Love:)
Yes, I think I can see that.

One great source of surprise for me over the past 3 years has been a combination of two things.
1) The satisfaction I have experienced and the sense of being done with trying to solve a puzzle, which seemed pretty distinct. Maybe I kid myself.
2) The other experience of bliss.
The combination has put these as two separate things, and I was always guessing that they would be one thing. The learning that seems to come with this has been to understand that while 1) it seems like something changed, which I've written about, 2) it was not what I thought it was.

And getting back to what I think I can see in your writing, is the expression of desire in my bearing and which way I am facing. I look at this body/mind and say that I want use it and face the world and participate in it. There will be plenty of bliss and all of this when this life is done.

So, really, I could say that has meant figuring out what to do next, or I could say that this is not figuring out what to do, but rather, that this is doing what is desired to do.

brahman

04 June 2013, 10:50 AM

1) The satisfaction I have experienced and the sense of being done with trying to solve a puzzle, which seemed pretty distinct. Maybe I kid myself.
2) The other experience of bliss.

Dear MarkMe,

Pain germinates fear, pleasure brings satisfaction and hope.

Of these two major propensities, fear and hope, it is fear that dominates both conscious and subconscious mind.

Hope arises from that stratum of existence which is truth itself- that is the blissful Self. Hope asserts itself again and again as the will to live, the will to seek, and the will to actualize. Actualization of the highest possible values, or the realization of the Self, dispels fear.

As an example, the experience of perfect love does indeed �cast out of fear.�

So, really, I could say that has meant figuring out what to do next, or I could say that this is not figuring out what to do, but rather, that this is doing what is desired to do.

The highest form of happiness is not any kind of excitement, as in the case of pleasure, but total Fearlessness.

All self-realized people are fearless, and fearlessly accept what life brings to them.

When Jesus was about to go to the houses of the high priests of Jerusalem, his disciple Peter was afraid of his safety. Peter envisioned the great tragedy that was awaiting Jesus if he should go. With good intentions he dissuaded him, but Jesus was not any less aware of the sinister intentions of the high priests and King Herod. Despite this knowledge Jesus said to Peter,

�Satan, get thee behind.�

We are not just engaged in theorizing.

To become established in fearlessness in all the four modified states of consciousness is another way of stating the main Goal. Love:)

MarkMe

06 June 2013, 09:21 AM

One may also be wary of the problems associated with "hope" as it is commonly used among persons of, for example, American religious culture. In this case, the problem is the fear side of hope, or of the lining of hope actually being a fear of what is hoped for not being true. To contrast against this, I have tended to use the term "aspire" in place of "hope", and I think "fear" will function effectively as an opposite to that.

----------------------

I have enjoyed bringing my thoughts and experiences here, to have these things batted back off of different sources and perspectives. It is my position that something like a "human ego" has been destroyed - not a larger one, and which should not be confused with supreme absorption, where I think absolute supreme absorption tends to be the ultimate goal of dharma schools. It has received my highest respect and acknowledgment. I also think the Supreme will be there forever, and for whenever I get around to facing the other way.

I have chosen, at this time in my life, to direct myself toward completion of a project of earthly endeavor. I am not facing in - facing God, at this time. I may, however, put part of my effort in this direction (and experience its gentle reminders). When this project is sufficiently complete, then I can only imagine that it will become my central goal to face in.

To anyone who has participated, I would like to thank you for your time, and your consideration in this volume of exchange, and for all of the effort involved.

- MarkMe