Should Caste threads have Their Own Section?

[ShivaFan]

Namaste

Threads that focus on the caste subject were suggested to be posted in the Hot Topics section of the forum (this was suggested in the description of the Hot Topics section).

I think there is only one subject that sinks a Hindu forum into constant jalpa and frankly could shatter a community of like minded Hindus who share so many things in common but for the emotions involved, and it is not other hot topics such as "Who is supreme?", nor women's issues, nor vegetarian verse chicken eaters, nor temples who are "Hindu Only", nor Temples who hire strickly and only Brahmins as pujaris, nor goat offerings to Kali Maa, nor Neo verse whatever even, nor which Upanishad is legit, none of this. Frankly, none of these "hot topics" really are a big deal to 90 % of Hindus no matter what position is taught to you from one school to the next, positions and understanding rarely shift, and it is easy to ignore one thread from the next.

I think the one exception to this is caste. I am not suggesting it should not be allowed as a discussion, all I am suggesting is perhaps it should have it's own section (not a sub-section for example under Hot Topics, but literaly it's own section perhaps replacing the slot held by the SADDHU section which appears either non-functional or dead.

I understand it is unlikely this suggestuon would be implemented but I thought I would suggest it anyway. Why?

Some just want to constantly go into this, and the reason why I am suggesting it have its own section is, it is obvious no one's position on this as taught to them is going to change, it is very unlikely, and I think this subject has already, and fully, and with every angle has been discussed from all positions and everything you could ever want to inquiry about it from every position is there and searchable, nor do I think it needs to be in a jalpa section, but if it has it's own section then those who are adament in always preaching it or countering it can go there and others who are frankly sick of the whole thing and don't like major sections on Devas for example that get nice threads and recent threads buried in these caste focus posts that distract from devotion or temple etc of certain sections, thus the other sections can then be freed to explore more easily the most recent pro-Hindu sharing of worship and such.

Frankly, I am getting a screaming head ache from these caste threads, so if it has it's own section then others can ignore that section entirely while exploring the sections for the Devas, Temples, Philosophy, fun sections such as Canteen and so on and thus avoid or ignore head aches or if you want to post counter position to caste you can also go there and start the thread there. This will help with avoiding a slow death of a forum.

What do you think? Sorry, I hate to suggest this, even doubt others would agree, but ....

Ps - how do you add a "vote for" widget to the post (e.g. Do you think caste threads should have it's own section? Yes or No.)

Om Namah Sivaya

[TrikonaBindu]

Namaste ShivaFan,

Please see FAQ for instructions on how to start a poll. :)

Om Shanti.

[ShivaFan]

Thanks TrikonaBindu, I've added the poll!

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam ShivaFan

i voted no, not because i care where the threads are posted but i do not think, wishing it away by burying our head in sand, the varna will disappear from Hindu society. It should not be a source of headache, the system that has stood the test of time what ever its shortcomings in this age of kali.

Jai Shree Krishna

[Jetavan]

Greetings,

For a moment, I thought you were suggesting that threads should be divided by caste.

[Necromancer]

Namaste.

I voted 'no' because the 'Hot Topics' forum already exists for this sole purpose:


Hot Topics

Discuss controversial topics here, e.g. Idol worshipping, Caste system, etc.

Yet, the subject matter in question always winds up in the Jalpa Forum and not the Hot Topics forum!

'Hot Topics' and 'Jalpa Forum' shouldn't exist as separate entities imho, because topics that are 'Hot' usually ends up as 'Jalpa'.

Before casting my vote, I read entries in both sub-fora and noticed the sheer number of closed threads in the Jalpa forum.

I have also read yajvan's translation of Jalpa as being 'playful discussion' but the discussion there is anything but 'playful'. It is more like Vitarka...'fanciful conjecture' or 'deliberate argument'.

As for the Caste System, I have no opinion about it at all as I am a Western convert. It doesn't apply to me whatsoever.

Even if I was born an Indian, I honestly doubt I would believe in it either. I feel it unnecessarily segregates Hindus and it is very discriminatory.
I am sorry to be blasphemous to the old Hindu Scriptures, but I believe that a lot of the 'old ways' are totally unrealistic and archaic in today's society.

Why should we make a separate forum for this and highlight it for even more heated debate and arguments between people on here? We should all be friends and try to get along.

I'd much prefer if it wasn't discussed at all...but then again, I don't care.

I believe this forum should have a list of forbidden topics that should not be discussed on HDF at all (and clearly displayed in HDF Forum Rules):

Caste System, Vishnu vs Shiva (who is greater), Meat Eating vs Vegetarianism, Women's Issues, Animal Sacrifices, Traditional Hinduism vs Neo Hinduism, 'Hindu Only' Temples and those topics you have already mentioned ...these topics will always get locked and see people banned.

It would make Satay's job a lot easier.

As for the S.A.D.H.U. robot, I am intrigued by that and would like to see it in action and give it a go.

Artificial intelligence is sometimes superior to the real thing. ;)

Aum Namah Shivaya

[ShivaFan]

Namaste All

I think it should be in it's own category since some members want to preach caste (jati birth based only) as a constant drum beat despite this being over worked and over preached and if it were in it's own category then others who enjoy participating in the "Gods" and other sections can stay focused on that subject without yet having another caste "handgrenade" of jalpa takeover the face of the category. If it has it's own section or category or forum, those who want to constantly preach it or argue against it or have a different teaching regarding it can publish their essays in the caste section, so that others who are getting a headache from constant jalpa or fixation on this can visit and participate in other categories and not have it taken over with the rattle of debate already heard many times on this, can choose to dive into it if they wish by swinging over into the caste section if they like, or ignore that section entirely as well, and can enjoy the other sections without feeling that time is wasted in sections that are taken over with controversy. It is true, there is really very few things that involve true controversy, not even the "who is supreme?" question even if it gets action does not bother 90% of Hindus who laugh these petty things off in the end, in fact I would state that it is only the caste issue which truly does raise actual controversy, endless debate, wild claims, divisions, preaching from those who have it as their primary life message, and should be in it's own place and it's own venue for "subject matter experts".

In fact then I could swing in there and publish my 5 page essay on what I am taught on this position (varna verse jati) and let the earth shake with anger (or love!) and those who want to preach pro-caste as a life calling can publish their essays into the same section and let the earth shake with anger(or love!) and others if they choose can ignore the essays of both entirely. Everything anyone ever didn't want to know or ever wanted to know about "caste" would be in one nice birthday box for all the world to open and expose.

Just a thought...

Om Namah Sivaya

[Necromancer]

Namaste.

We could also have a 'sticky' in the Hot Topics Forum about the Caste System and all posts can be placed there, rather than having the topic surface on a regular basis in there and other forums.

That is another idea.

I have made a thread on here suggesting that we would be much better off without certain forums causing all these arguments and fuss anyway.

I'm just as tired of it all as you are and I agree that people should focus and spend more time with other aspects of this forum.

Aum Namah Shivaya

[ShivaFan]

Namaste Necro, i think a sticky perhaps isn't a bad idea either, but might be subject to being thought of as a member's thread rather then the "go to place" to discuss caste. But not bad idea either. I still vote for it's own category, but looks like the votes aren't with me. Nice to see it is a consideration, however.
Om Namah Sivaya

[Necromancer]

Namaste Necro, i think a sticky perhaps isn't a bad idea either, but might be subject to being thought of as a member's thread rather then the "go to place" to discuss caste. But not bad idea either. I still vote for it's own category, but looks like the votes aren't with me. Nice to see it is a consideration, however.
Om Namah Sivaya
Namaste.

The sticky should be made by Satay or a moderator to show there's no personal bias involved.

Basically, it should only say "All discussions about the Caste System is to be placed in this thread.....go!"

Thank you for giving my idea consideration and I am sorry that your poll isn't going too well for you.

I can see your reasoning and I appreciate it...that if the debate has its own section, people like us can choose to ignore it if we wish.

I just see this creating more problems than it's designed to fix by adding another controversial sub forum on to an overcrowded board where people already have been given too much free reign to debate pointlessly.

Some things are better left alone and unsaid.

That's why I voted 'no' and no disrespect is intended in any way.

With that, I have said all I am going to say on this matter.

Good luck and best wishes with your ideas and your poll.

Aum Namah Shivaya

[TrikonaBindu]

Namaskaram to all.

If I may express my thought in ten points:

1. The overwhelming majority of Hindus are of Indian descent.
2. Jati and varna are significant realities for this majority.
3. Jati and varna are increasingly challenged in the present era.
4. Large numbers of Hindus now feel a crucial need to discuss jati and varna.
5. HDF can and should serve the Hindu community by providing a venue for thought-sharing on this crucial subject.
6. Western converts to Hinduism, though constituting only a minute fraction of the Hindu population, are nevertheless a significant presence on HDF.
7. Jati and varna may impact Westerners (a) if they marry Indian Hindus, (b) if they seek entrance to certain temples, (c) if they associate jati and varna with issues of social justice, (d) if they have a sociological interest in the caste system, and (e) if they are wondering how or whether to apply to themselves the system of four varnas described in some of the scriptures they choose to study.
8. For many Westerners jati and varna are irrelevant or else a nuisance factor that they tolerate for the sake of access to Deity worship, sacred philosophy, and/or the practice of yoga.
9. It is notorious that discussions centering on Caste eventuate in a flurry of acrimonious posts that are deleterious to the forum in which they are posted. By their sheer volume these acrimonious posts have the effect of burying other threads that are worthy of attention.
10. From all the above, I conclude that the issue of Caste deserves a dedicated forum.

Pranam.

[Asi]

The internet has no caste.

Technically, there are only two classes of people in this forum - the ones who know the scriptures well (like many of the old members here), and the ones who don't.


I don't see the point of characterizing either of them by their birth, especially in this forum.

That being said, i believe a simpler solution would be to just give the caste topic a separate space, simply that it does not prove a hindrance for the rest of the forum.

[Necromancer]

Namaskaram to all.

If I may express my thought in ten points:

1. The overwhelming majority of Hindus are of Indian descent.
2. Jati and varna are significant realities for this majority.
3. Jati and varna are increasingly challenged in the present era.
4. Large numbers of Hindus now feel a crucial need to discuss jati and varna.
5. HDF can and should serve the Hindu community by providing a venue for thought-sharing on this crucial subject.
6. Western converts to Hinduism, though constituting only a minute fraction of the Hindu population, are nevertheless a significant presence on HDF.
7. Jati and varna may impact Westerners (a) if they marry Indian Hindus, (b) if they seek entrance to certain temples, (c) if they associate jati and varna with issues of social justice, (d) if they have a sociological interest in the caste system, and (e) if they are wondering how or whether to apply to themselves the system of four varnas described in some of the scriptures they choose to study.
8. For many Westerners jati and varna are irrelevant or else a nuisance factor that they tolerate for the sake of access to Deity worship, sacred philosophy, and/or the practice of yoga.
9. It is notorious that discussions centering on Caste eventuate in a flurry of acrimonious posts that are deleterious to the forum in which they are posted. By their sheer volume these acrimonious posts have the effect of burying other threads that are worthy of attention.
10. From all the above, I conclude that the issue of Caste deserves a dedicated forum.

Pranam.

Namaste.

All very valid and noteworthy points.

In regards to points #7 & #8.

For a long time, I was married to a Hindu man of Vaishya caste. His family came from the Sunar or 'Goldsmith' clan.

He studied the scriptures in India and became a Pundit...even doing Pujas for Brahmins! Nobody cared or questioned this. His services were (and still are) in high demand.

He is also very proficient in Jyotish.

His family are also followers of Mahatma Ghandi who was 'anti-caste'.

Now, I am divorced. I am an unmarried woman, living in poverty with a questionable reputation.

I guess that makes me a Shudra according to Scripture.

I really don't care though because it is irrelevant.

I'm not married to a Hindu, my Mandir accepts all without discrimination, I still follow the teachings of Ghandi and believe in social injustice, and I basically follow the teachings of the Upanishads and do Hatha Yoga.

So, jati and varna do not apply to me at all.

I will concede that they are important for others and I would have to be born in that situation to be able to understand it...just like how men cannot understand women and vice versa.

Because it doesn't apply to me, I really do not care.

If there is a whole forum dedicated to discussing this, even though I don't believe in it, I shall let others believe and just continue to ignore it and continue to talk about Lord Shiva in the Shaiva Forum.

Aum Namah Shivaya

[ShivaFan]

Namaste

Just so I am not misunderstood, this post is about suggesting that caste have it's own section. Hopefully this thread about this suggestion doesn't turn into another debate and jalpa about caste itself. No one is doing that, just might see it coming.

Which is just another example and supportive point that it should have it's own section. That way the essays, arguements, pros and cons can all go into that one bucket, and for those who are exhasted or bored with the "debate" can enjoy other sections without it turning into a big debate between a few members and so....

Thanks for the input so far! Very helpful for me.

Om Namah Sivaya

[philosoraptor]

Is there any reason why those who are "bored" with caste discussions can't just skip those threads? I don't see the issue here.

[ShivaFan]

Namaste Philosoraptor

It isn't just about being bored, though yes if such threads which often are essays were in one section it would make it much more productive and allow those to simply ignore the section where they are found simply because it becomes boring hearing the same songs over and over again, and having the discussion in it's own section allows the other categories some freedom from being whitewashed into never ending point counter point on caste that distracts from the main themes of these other sections.

So yes, I guess boring would also be an appropriate term.

If the thread is going to be a focus on a caste discussion, let that be in it's own category. That allows both pro and con to present threads and if so desired get into the same point and counter points on teachings. I certainly would consider posting what I have been taught about varna verse jati, very different from what appears to be your teachings.

Or ignore the category entirely if there are better things to discuss such as the Devas.

It is better to have it's own category, then instead have every other discussion turned into jalpa about caste because some feel a need to bring it up as focus of their concern again and again... Heard it, been there, so may as well file it where it can easily be found.

Om Namah Sivaya

[TrikonaBindu]

Is there any reason why those who are "bored" with caste discussions can't just skip those threads? I don't see the issue here.

Namaskaram.

I believe the discussion of caste is crucial to the worldwide Hindu community.

The logical leaders of such a discussion are persons of Indian ancestry, since it is they who best understand the function and/or dysfunction of jati/varna in the contemporary world.

The opinions of non-Indian Hindus on the subject of caste are clearly of lesser importance. Indeed it would be counterproductive for the Hindu community as a whole, if non-Indian Hindus were to intrude excessively into a field of discussion that pertains primarily to persons of Indian ancestry. This is not to say that we Western Hindus ought never to add our occasional two cents. But unless we are apprised of definite caste-related civil rights violations, I believe we non-Indians do well to maintain "noble silence" for the most part, leaving our Indian co-religionists to process their intimate knowledge and experience of caste.)

If I favor the establishment of a separate forum for the discussion of caste, it is with the feeling that non-Indian Hindus are not likely to abstain from discussions that originate in forums where they are long accustomed to a free expression of their personal opinions. Whereas (so I would hope), if there were a dedicated forum for the discussion of caste, non-Indians might show the good sense and good grace to let themselves be marginalized for the sake of the greater good.

Pranam.

[philosoraptor]

I am inclined to agree with Trikona on this one.

The issue of discussing caste and varNa is extremely important to the Hindu community. For decades, this issue has been used by critics to strike out against Hinduism in the name of missionary work or academic "scholarship." It doesn't help that the modern caste system has become a corrupted version of the original varNAshrama dharma. This is not to say that pure varNAshrama would be compatible with Western egalitarian sensibilities. But we have to acknowledge an integral part of the tradition and discuss it properly, with reference to shAstra, or else we are just lying to ourselves.

varNAshrama and all discussions about it belong in the dharma forum. That is why it is there - to discuss dharma, and that is what varNAshrama is. We don't need yet another subforum to protect the sensibilities of those wanting to believe in a more "politically correct" version of Hinduism. If a thread bothers you, then hit the "back" button on your browser. Or better yet, read with an open mind and stop interjecting with tangential remarks and strawman attacks.

One more point: there is a propaganda by some individuals that varNAshrama should not be acknowledged or discussed because it is not "practical" in this day and age. I am curious to know why anyone thinks that the quest for moksha is in any way "practical." It's so much the opposite of what we experience in this world, that a clear idea of what it is and what it requires is necessary for us. But be that as it may, whether one is striving for moksha or not, there is no harm educating ourselves about it, since it is a part of the Hindu tradition in one form or another, and it deserves serious attention.

[Believer]

Namaste,


......... I ...... believe in social injustice....
Really? :)


......This is not to say that we Western Hindus ought never to add our occasional two cents.....
The minimum value of anything that qualifies to be posted here is $1; just so you know. ;)

Pranam.

[TrikonaBindu]

varNAshrama and all discussions about it belong in the dharma forum. That is why it is there - to discuss dharma, and that is what varNAshrama is.

Funny thing, philosoraptor. In the original version of my post, I did venture to suggest that caste discussions be assigned to the Dharma forum. After all, we are speaking here of varnashrama dharma, an issue of substantial importance in our scriptures, which deserves a more dignified category than “Hot Topics.” Subsequently I edited out that suggestion, because I felt it might distract from the main points I wished to make.

What I actually suggested, then deleted, was to make a sub-forum for Caste within the Dharma forum. On further consideration, however, I find myself wavering on that idea. Why? It occurs to me that if we were to single out Caste for a sub-forum, how many other Dharma sub-forums would there have to be? For example, should we then require a separate sub-forum on the status of women, since that is also a controversial issue of Dharma?

I could accept the assignment of Caste discussions to the Dharma forum, at least for the time being—except there remains this misgiving mentioned earlier: Threads on caste often eventuate in a flurry of acrimonious posts that adversely affect any forum in which they are posted. By sheer volume the acrimonious posts bury other threads that are worthy of attention.(I guess that is why Caste got booted to Hot Topics. Sigh.)

Also, Non-Indian Hindus are long accustomed to post on Dharma forum, so there might be more intrusion into what ought to be primarily a discussion among Hindus of Indian ancestry. Although Indian Hindus do quite a fine job of arguing just among themselves, the entry of Westerners into the discussion of Caste definitely adds fuel to the fire. That's why IMO, Cost:benefit ratio should persuade Westerners towards economy of expression on this issue.

So it's a headscratcher. :headscratch:

[Necromancer]

Namaste,


Really? :)


Namaste.

Substitute the word 'in' for the word 'is'.

That's what happens when you type at 3am. ;)

Aum Namah Shivaya

[dogra]

Caste or Vrana should belong to topic it relates to , if individuals do not wish to comment , then dont, do you watch all programmes on a certain channel.

Unfortunately moderation is biased, individuall get put on moderation when they have started threads for discussion, which then get turned into something else by other individuals who start personal attacks, and then when response is given, the person who is attacked in the begining gets put on pre mod, go figure.
If that is the way fairness is applied here, then there are others forums where fair balance is kept.

If you do not post this post, then cancel my account.

[satay]

Admin Note

Namaste,
You are breaking rule 7 with your post. Please read the rules again and let me know if you have any questions.

Just a general comment, there are a number of forums on the Internet. If HDF is not the right fit for you please feel free to go elsewhere. No one should feel obligated to post on HDF.

Thanks,



Unfortunately moderation is biased, individuall get put on moderation when they have started threads for discussion, which then get turned into something else by other individuals who start personal attacks, and then when response is given, the person who is attacked in the begining gets put on pre mod, go figure.
If that is the way fairness is applied here, then there are others forums where fair balance is kept.

If you do not post this post, then cancel my account.

[ShivaFan]

Namaste All

I hope this posting (which was just a suggestion) isn't causing grief for anyone.

If that is the case, maybe it isn't such a good idea.

Looks like the poll is against my idea anyway.

Thanks for the consideration!

Om Namah Sivaya

[satay]

Namaste,


Namaste All

I hope this posting (which was just a suggestion) isn't causing grief for anyone.



No, not at all.

[Amrut]

Caste or Vrana should belong to topic it relates to , if individuals do not wish to comment , then dont, do you watch all programmes on a certain channel.

Unfortunately moderation is biased, individuall get put on moderation when they have started threads for discussion, which then get turned into something else by other individuals who start personal attacks, and then when response is given, the person who is attacked in the begining gets put on pre mod, go figure.
If that is the way fairness is applied here, then there are others forums where fair balance is kept.

If you do not post this post, then cancel my account.

Namaste,

Are we not all humans?

If things are favourable, then there wont be any complain, but if not, then you feel you are offended. Certain decisions are instinctive. Often some discussions are very sensitive as religion itself is very sensitive topic with pride and emotions attached to it. It is the basis of one’s life. If the discussion is too intensive , IMHO, better option would be to take a break.

I learned that problem is with me. Too much involvement and taking things too seriously breaks meditation.

I like @Philosoraptor's approach - Ignore if you do not agree.

If you find something offensive, then without lashing back, you can contact mods/admin (this applies to me too). Even if you are not involved in thread, you can report something that is too serious. Reading all the posts from mod POV is really a pain. Please do not take things much seriously.

Members here do not represent the whole of Hinduism, and their words are not like line carved on stone :) all have their own opinions, which they freely share.

Anyways, @ShivaFan, caste is not something special. Ancient Rishis were much more intelligent then today’s social reformers and I fully trust them and try to follow them as much as possible. Most people believe in caste, even in city like Mumbai. I think 'On Dharma' section is better for such topics, but the thing is, caste-based opinion can be made in any Hindu Dharma related post, which includes vedas and upanishads.

If someone is not comfortable with 'Traditional-Neo' saga :), then I think 'Orthodox-modern' or 'Traditional-New Age' words can be used to classify, if at all someone wishes to classify. Rest is all subjective.

Aum

Amrut