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namahsivaya
09 June 2013, 03:01 PM
Namaste,

Lately I have gone back to studying the Bhagavad Gita. Through my initial readings throughout the years, the main message I got was to dedicate the fruits of all of my actions to Sri Krishna. That is how we can live in society and perform our duties and still reach Bhagwan, by not becoming attached to the fruits of our actions but offering them to Bhagwan.

For example, I as a student try to do well on exams and make good grades, but I don't do so for myself. I try to make good grades because it pleases Bhagwan.

But from my recent readings of the Gita and also from reading these forums, the idea of "the doer" and complete surrender to Bhagwan have caught my mind. Particularly in Chapter 18, Sri Krishna talks about the agent, the doer, etc. This was discussed at length in this thread: http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=10982
But there are still many things that I am not clear about

That previous thread about the doer was also restricted to the Vishishadvaita view, but I am seeking other interpretations as well, since I am more of an Advaitan.

The main point that I got out of that thread, per Vishishadvaita, is that the individual jiva is not the only doer. The point is that the jiva is dependent upon other factors, such as the body, senses, prana, karmas, etc. as well as most importantly Bhagwan. Since we are not the only doer and we depend on Bhagwan, would it be correct to say that all actions occur through the consent and will of Bhagawan?

The main thing that I am confused about is how our individual free will relates to the will of God, the will of Bhagwan. A poster on the other thread said that we have to align/unite our will with the will of God. But how do we know what the will of Bhagwan is? Would it be correct to say that the will of Bhagwan is for us to glorify Bhagwan through all our actions? This would relate back to what I wrote earlier, where we can glorify Bhagwan through what seems like mundane activities by not becoming attached to the fruits of our actions and offering them to Bhagwan.

This part makes sense to me in theory, that we should glorify Bhagwan in everything we do by constantly thinking of and remembering Bhagwan and seeing Bhagwan everywhere. This would be like becoming Krishna-conscious.

But what I can't grasp is how this relates to the concept of the doer and the will of Bhagwan. For example, if I wake up and go brush my teeth, would it be correct to say that the jiva is controlling the body to brush its teeth (since I am not the body) and the jiva in turn is being controlled by Bhagwan? Is it not correct that the body and the jiva are tools/instruments of Bhagwan? Therefore, ultimately, it is Bhagwan who is controlling the body to brush its teeth?

The reason I use a mundane example like brushing my teeth is because I am trying to figure out how exactly to apply these teachings of Sri Krishna in my everyday life. Again, I as a student strive to do well in school because it is my duty and it pleases Bhagwan. But what about really mundane, everyday things? If it is ultimately Bhagwan who is controlling the body to brush its teeth, would it be correct to say that it is the will of Bhagwan that the body's teeth are brushed? This would make sense in a way because the body should be kept clean and healthy, or am I going too far in this thinking?

What if "I" decide not to brush my teeth? Who is making that decision? Would that be an example of the jiva acting foolishly because the jiva does not recognize its dependence upon Bhagwan? What if "I" decide to do something evil or to be rude to other people? Surely it can't be said that Bhagwan is the doer of those actions! So how does the individual free will relate to Bhagwan being the ultimate doer? After all, is Bhagwan not the "doer" along with the jiva, and the other factors such as the senses, prana, etc.?

After thinking a lot about this I thought I realized that we must strive to be Krishna-conscious, to glorify Bhagwan, worship Bhagwan, see Bhagwan everywhere, and dedicate everything to Bhagwan. That is the essence of surrender, and when we are Krishna-conscious we truly are the instruments/tools of Bhagwan. Yet, how can we be the tools of Bhagwan, how can we be controlled by Him, when we ourselves are the ultimate deciders of what we do and how we act?

I am quite confused about all of this and I realize this might be a very confusing and disorganized post, but I hope we can have a fruitful discussion and come to greater realizations.

Jai Sri Krishna!

smaranam
10 June 2013, 02:57 AM
Is it not correct that the body and the jiva are tools/instruments of Bhagwan? Therefore, ultimately, it is Bhagwan who is controlling the body to brush its teeth?

The reason I use a mundane example like brushing my teeth is because I am trying to figure out how exactly to apply these teachings of Sri Krishna in my everyday life. Again, I as a student strive to do well in school because it is my duty and it pleases Bhagwan. But what about really mundane, everyday things? If it is ultimately Bhagwan who is controlling the body to brush its teeth, would it be correct to say that it is the will of Bhagwan that the body's teeth are brushed? This would make sense in a way because the body should be kept clean.

What if "I" decide not to brush my teeth? Who is making that decision? Would that be an example of the jiva acting foolishly because the jiva does not recognize its dependence upon Bhagwan? What if "I" decide to do something evil or to be rude to other people? Surely it can't be said that Bhagwan is the doer of those actions! So how does the individual free will relate to Bhagwan being the ultimate doer? After all, is Bhagwan not the "doer" along with the jiva, and the other factors such as the senses, prana, etc.?


praNAm namahshivaya

According to "me" [whatever that means]
PrakRti is the [raw] doer. Bhagvan is the fascilitator. PrakRti cannot bat "your" eyelids unless He provides the chetan shakti - sentience.

What this means is, the tri-guNa (three modes of material nature - sattva raja tama) are deciding whether to brush teeth, be rude, punch or not. If you want to be rude, He will fascilitate it. (gives you free will).
Animals do not brush their teeth. The triguNa combination is much different in them, and then there is the learning factor. Cultural learning. If you teach a gorilla to brush, he will. Parrot will "parrot" your words.
Concept of cleanliness is learned and further maintained by the tri-guNa (sattva in this case, possibly combined with rajas)
This is all done by triguNa.

In this way, Bhagvan/paramAtmA gives the jiva free will. The tri-guNa-entangled-jiva's will to brush or be rude is not enough. Paramatma has to provide the chetanA so that it can actually happen.

*The presence of antaryAmi (inner dweller) as BhagvAn/paramAtmA, is acknowledged when the jiva has elevated the triguNa combination to more and more sattva tending to vishuddha sattva. When this happens, the antaryami participates more, He guides more. If you are oblivious to His presence He will not give guidance but merely sanction the [free] will, like the president signs a bill.

Yes, our goal is to be KRshNa-conscious. That means marching in line with His Will. Will explain shortly***

>>SaMkalpa - resolve, made by a jiva, independant of Bhagvan, can be sAttvic, rAjasic, tAmasic or a combination of these.
>>When saMkalpa is made with knowledge of what He will like, it is aligned (like your sankalpa to do well in exams for His pleasure)
>>When there is absolutely NO saMkalpa, the jiva is not acting anymore. Generally embodied beings have some samkalpa, but they may diminsh to the subtle levels.

***Suppose Bhagvan comes a day before the tests and tells you, drop the books. Stop studying and come with Me. I have some work for you.
Will you go ? This is what KRshNa conscious means. As long as He does not come and explicitly tell you to close the books, you assume He wants you to study/do well based on Guru, sAdhu, shAstra, inherent learned traits of goodness with minimal impact on others.



I hope that will answer most of your questions, have not addressed all of them.

_/\_

Jai Shri KRshNa

smaranam
10 June 2013, 08:48 AM
According to "me" [whatever that means]
PrakRti is the [raw] doer. Bhagvan is the fascilitator. PrakRti cannot bat "your" eyelids unless He provides the chetan shakti - sentience.

REF: BG 13.19,20,21,22,23

BG 13.30 prakRtyaiva cha karmANi
kriyamAnAni sarvashah:
yah pashyati tathAtmAnam
akartAram sa pashyati
One who can see that all activities are performed by the body, which is created of material nature, and sees that the AtmA does nothing, actually sees.

BG 13.31,32
BG 13.33 yathA sarva-gatam shauksmyAd
AkAsham nopalipyate
sarvatrAvasthito dehe
tathAtmA nopalipyate

_/\_
om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

realdemigod
10 June 2013, 01:24 PM
Namaste,

Lately I have gone back to studying the Bhagavad Gita. Through my initial readings throughout the years, the main message I got was to dedicate the fruits of all of my actions to Sri Krishna. That is how we can live in society and perform our duties and still reach Bhagwan, by not becoming attached to the fruits of our actions but offering them to Bhagwan.

For example, I as a student try to do well on exams and make good grades, but I don't do so for myself. I try to make good grades because it pleases Bhagwan.


Itsn't like if you have to make good grades to please someone. As per the laws of karma you don't have the right to claim which is not yours - 'fruits of action' and they will come in accordance with the effort you put and mental volition. Some schools say that it's a sin to take which is not yours which is a fearful way of putting an idea across so that people don't generate samskaras of being attached to an outcome and craving for it and as these samskaras lead to cycles of birth and death

To your other question of brushing teeth and mundate activites you have come to age old deabte - 'is freewill an illusion'. I'm still looking for a very compelling answer.

I'd like to quote from Arthur Schopenhauer which you might find interesting. Although he was an atheist and believed in purposeless existence he mentioned in one of the essays - "As you age in your later years when you look back at life you will see a symphony composed perfectly with people, events, happenstances at perfect junctures, and he asks who composed this symphony and he says it's the 'Will of the World' "

To me that's the Will of Brahman or Krsna or anybody who you consider as Supreme Intelligence running the cosmos. That 'Will' has the capability to influence your 'will' and at an individualistic level you have freewill to do silly mundane things. But your freewill isn't strong enough to influence the 'Will of Brahman'. In a grander scheme ..things will always work out no matter how you want or don't. This what Shamans across the world believe we are collectively dreaming the world into being with Universe. Our 'will' matching the 'will of the Universe' But if you are a pro-Advaitin don't falsely believe in the extremities of some schools.