Liberal Gaudiya Vaisnava gurus

[sleepingjiva]

Hare Krishna, all. New poster here!

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Sri Sri Gaura-Nitai and Sri Sri Radha-Krishna!

A little introduction, if you'll indulge me: I've been involved with Krishna consciousness for around six years in an on-and-off capacity. I don't visit a temple regularly, my chanting and devotional service is not consistent (my daily japa has been as high as four and as low as none) and only visit the occasional event, but, at my core, I believe wholeheartedly in Caitanya Vaisnava philosophy and in their lordships Radha-Krishna as svayam-bhagavan.

I am, however, disillusioned somewhat with ISKCON and believe many of their teachings – specifically on women's and gay rights, regulation of sex life and anti-scientific, literal readings of the scriptures – to be hopelessly outdated and based upon HDG Srila Prabhupada's own cultural prejudices and norms.

I have recently become attracted to the teachings of HH BV Tripurari Swami and his attempt to present Vaisnavism in a modern, 21st century way, and feel very much like his Sri Caitanya Sanga is far more on the right path than the silly prejudices of ISKCON. My question is this: Does anyone know of any other "liberal" or "progressive" (i.e. non-fundamentalist) Gaudiya Vaisnava gurus like Tripurari Maharaja, either inside or outside of ISKCON?

I am specifically looking for examples of spiritual masters who don't mandate no sex whatsoever, require a minimum of the rather arbitrary sixteen rounds for initiation, have a more metaphorical view on some aspects of the Bhagavatam, etc.

Thank you in advance for your responses, prabhus.

Your servant,

Bhakta SJ

[philosoraptor]

Neither an ISKCON devotee nor a Gaudiya Vaishnava here. But I just want to say, it sounds like you have already decided what the dharma standard should be, and are now just looking for a "guru" who agrees with you. In that case, why bother searching for such a "guru?" Why not just make up your own views?

There is no shortage of "gurus" who will tell you want to hear. You can google search them. What I fail to understand is what you hope to learn from such "gurus."

[ShivaFan]

Namaste Sleepingjiva    

With all respects, though it seems clear you have been taking instruction from Tripurari Maharaj, there might be an important confusion in regards to his position on a dynamic spiritual life.  If I misrepresent his position, please invite him to this forum to correct it and I apologise in advanced, I am not one who attends his instruction but I do recall what I believe is the dynamic life Gaudiya vision which when I state it, may disappoint you.  I mean no offense, and again I could be wrong.   It is my understanding that actually the Maharaj you speak of is actually not open in the terms you speak of. From the standpoint of what is to be the priority in the message, this form of Gaudiya life does not go about with a harsh or "fire and brimstone" approach (e.g. "burn all homosexuals" using an example).  The message is positive, all can come, however the teachings will not deviate from the core goal that you must go beyond the bodily conception, that a devotee is to transcend mind and body.  Thus a homosexual who hears the positive message to move towards the path, must also give up these attachments of the body.  There is no other route in Gaudiya devotion, just because the Maharaj you speak of may not go about screaming against whatever, including against homosexuals, just because that school sees the priority to give only a positive rather than a condeming message, does not mean abondoning the transcedental perspective beyond mind and body attachment.  So even with your Maharaj, you may be trying to align something that does not exist in Gaudiya schools including this one.  Please update us if and when you make progress on being sheltered into some teacher or school of Hinduism, I would be interested in hearing of your journey and welcome to the forum.

  Om Namah Sivaya

[sleepingjiva]

Neither an ISKCON devotee nor a Gaudiya Vaishnava here. But I just want to say, it sounds like you have already decided what the dharma standard should be, and are now just looking for a "guru" who agrees with you. In that case, why bother searching for such a "guru?" Why not just make up your own views?

There is no shortage of "gurus" who will tell you want to hear. You can google search them. What I fail to understand is what you hope to learn from such "gurus."

Hare Krishna, Philosoraptor! Thank you for your reasoned response.

I feel you've slightly misunderstood my original question, but that's almost certainly my fault for not wording it correctly, so let me clarify.

I don't think I've already decided what the "dharma standard" should be, and I'm not looking for gurus who "agree with me". I have my own views, and I accept that those views are, to an extent, personal to me – but what I am looking for is modern Gaudiya Vaisnava spiritual masters whose teachings aren't clouded by mundane, material moral judgements.

I'm struggling for how to word this correctly, but I feel that many in ISKCON place too much of an emphasis on Srila Prabhupada's prescriptive rules and regulations and not enough on his modernising, accepting spiritual mood. Although it feels wrong criticising such an empowered spiritual master, I do believe that he was wrong to impose blanket restrictions on some things (the "four regs") and a minimum of 16 rounds of japa per day when many of his Gaudiya Math godbrothers wouldn't have. Perhaps he felt that New York's hippies needed strong discipline and strict guidance to progress in spiritual life, but I think a direct result of that is an organisation whose members struggle to suppress their in-built sexual urges and "fall down" (or, in worse case scenarios, turn to child abuse, as in the Catholic Church).

Hope that clarifies my position somewhat.

Your servant,

SJ

[sleepingjiva]

Namaste Sleepingjiva    

With all respects, though it seems clear you have been taking instruction from Tripurari Maharaj, there might be an important confusion in regards to his position on a dynamic spiritual life.  If I misrepresent his position, please invite him to this forum to correct it and I apologise in advanced, I am not one who attends his instruction but I do recall what I believe is the dynamic life Gaudiya vision which when I state it, may disappoint you.  I mean no offense, and again I could be wrong.   It is my understanding that actually the Maharaj you speak of is actually not open in the terms you speak of. From the standpoint of what is to be the priority in the message, this form of Gaudiya life does not go about with a harsh or "fire and brimstone" approach (e.g. "burn all homosexuals" using an example).  The message is positive, all can come, however the teachings will not deviate from the core goal that you must go beyond the bodily conception, that a devotee is to transcend mind and body.  Thus a homosexual who hears the positive message to move towards the path, must also give up these attachments of the body.  There is no other route in Gaudiya devotion, just because the Maharaj you speak of may not go about screaming against whatever, including against homosexuals, just because that school sees the priority to give only a positive rather than a condeming message, does not mean abondoning the transcedental perspective beyond mind and body attachment.  So even with your Maharaj, you may be trying to align something that does not exist in Gaudiya schools including this one.  Please update us if and when you make progress on being sheltered into some teacher or school of Hinduism, I would be interested in hearing of your journey and welcome to the forum.

  Om Namah Sivaya

Namaste, ShivaFan!

I am not actually taking instruction from Tripurari Maharaja, and I have only ever conversed with him via one of his disciples, but I am definitely attracted to his teachings and wish to have his association one day.

I very much appreciate your response, and understand your argument on the nature of Gaudiya philosophy and life, but we disagree on some points. You are right when you say the successful, practising, pure Gaudiya devotee is one beyond the bodily conception, completely absorbed in Krishna and the spiritual world, but there are also a number of stages on the way, and I don't think everyone can become that devotee in the same way, or even at all.

What I am looking for are gurus who, like Swami Tripurari, recognise that there are different stages and different paths to that position of pure devotion, and who can recognise that every individual jiva must approach it in their own way, according to their environment and personality. Two ways in which Tripurari Maharaja differs from mainstream ISKCON gurus is that he won't refuse to initiate a sincere devotee because they're not chanting 16 rounds, and that he recognises the need for a sex life outside procreation (still in marriage, however). Why can't one use the sexual urge for Krishna, too? Why can't we use every sense in the service of Krishna, instead of allowing some (food) and denying some (sex)? Did not Krishna have his own rasa-lila with the gopis?

Maybe I'm destined to remain outside mainstream Gaudiya Vaisnava thought, and maybe there isn't a guru that even comes close to my own perception of these things. But I believe there's a spiritual master for everyone out there, even borderline Vaishnava-Sahajiyas. ;)

Yours in seva,

SJ

[philosoraptor]

I'm struggling for how to word this correctly, but I feel that many in ISKCON place too much of an emphasis on Srila Prabhupada's prescriptive rules and regulations and not enough on his modernising, accepting spiritual mood. Although it feels wrong criticising such an empowered spiritual master, I do believe that he was wrong to impose blanket restrictions on some things (the "four regs") and a minimum of 16 rounds of japa per day when many of his Gaudiya Math godbrothers wouldn't have. Perhaps he felt that New York's hippies needed strong discipline and strict guidance to progress in spiritual life, but I think a direct result of that is an organisation whose members struggle to suppress their in-built sexual urges and "fall down" (or, in worse case scenarios, turn to child abuse, as in the Catholic Church).


Well, aside from "16 rounds" which seems like a guru-specific instruction, the other things he insisted on (things like sexual intercourse only within marriage for procreation, vegetarianism with foods offered directly to the Deity, no intoxicating substances, etc) are directly imported from dharma-shAstras. So again, I'm not clear on what it is you hope to achieve, by having a "guru" who waters down these standards, as if an authentic guru is somehow authorized to do that.

If you aren't prepared to follow the standards laid out by the guru, then you should probably consider passing on initiation. There is no meaning to initiation without discipline, and that's pretty much a standard across all Hindu traditions. You could instead continue to hear the guru's instructions and serve him until some day when, perhaps, you might be ready to make a more sincere commitment. That would be preferable to seeking initiation from a so-called "guru" who waters down the standards so that he can have more followers.

regards,

[sleepingjiva]

Well, aside from "16 rounds" which seems like a guru-specific instruction, the other things he insisted on (things like sexual intercourse only within marriage for procreation, vegetarianism with foods offered directly to the Deity, no intoxicating substances, etc) are directly imported from dharma-shAstras.

Hare Krishna, Philosoraptor.

Forgive my ignorance, but I'd be obliged if you could quote some of the sastras in which specific bans on non-procreational sex, no intoxicants, etc., appear? I would very much like to know the scriptural basis for Srila Prabhupada's restrictions on these things, as they're never explained outside of "He's an acarya, just do as he says".

In seva,

SJ

[philosoraptor]

Hare Krishna, Philosoraptor.

Forgive my ignorance, but I'd be obliged if you could quote some of the sastras in which specific bans on non-procreational sex, no intoxicants, etc., appear? I would very much like to know the scriptural basis for Srila Prabhupada's restrictions on these things, as they're never explained outside of "He's an acarya, just do as he says".

In seva,

SJ

Sure, there are multiple quotes on both issues, and I can show you what I have in my notes.

Regarding intoxicants, you could try looking at these verses which speak of rAkshasa-s being addicted to alcohol: VR 5.17.9-18, VR 5.18.5, VR 6.60.63.

These verses more explicitly describe prohibition of alcohol consumption: CU 5.10.9, VR 2.12.78, VR 2.75.41, VR 4.33.45-46, VR 4.34.12, VaP 117.27, VaP 121.24, VaP 136.70-71, VaP 139.56, VaP 155.43, VaP 158.36, VaP 174.45, VaP 176.45, VaP 179.17, VaP 195.6, VaP 200.69, VaP 202.29, VaP 203.63, VaP 211.79-80, ViP 2.6.9.

Regarding sex, the following verses describe the sexual act as being for procreation only: VR 7.3.4, VaP 121.12-13,

while these verses specifically condemn adultery: VR 2.63.30, VR 2.75.55, VR 3.38.30, VR 3.50.7-8, VR 4.17.37, VR 4.18.22, VR 6.87.22-23, VaP 28.10, VaP 93.11, VaP 127.39-40, VaP 134.27, VaP 137.192-193, VaP 139.54, VaP 155.32-33, VaP 155.39-41, VaP 174.45, VaP 176.42-49, VaP 176.56-60, VaP 195.3, VaP 198.75, VaP 202.13, VaP 202.70-71, VaP 203.56-70

and these verses mention the uncleanliness associated with sex: VaP 132.1-10, VaP 132.19-21

while these verses mention about how sexual indulgence destroys spiritual wisdom: VR 2.75.41, ViP 1.15.36-39

and these verses explicitly describe regulation of the sexual act: SB 11.5.11-13, VaP 207.29, ViP 3.11.108-124.

The bhAgavatam verse in particular is quite clear that sex within marriage is permitted only for procreation.

Note that these notes are based on my readings, which are by no means exhaustive. There are certainly many more verses which also mention these things.

Key: CU = chAndogya upaniShad, SB = shrImad bhAgavatam, VR = vALmIki rAmAyaNa, ViP = viShNu purANa, VaP = varAha purANa

regards,

[Braja Bhushan das]

Dear sleepingjiva

what follows may not be liberal but still could be of interest to you:

"Q: What about if our guru is completely celibate and we cannot be completely celibate, then what is the actual rule?

A: If you are a housheholder or if you desire to get married, there is no restriction that one has to be completely celibate. If one has taken babaji initiation, there is no question of sexual indulgence or married life. But if one has not taken babaji initiation, one is allowed to marry and have a family.

Of course, the question always arises whether or not one can have as much sex as one likes. This question is generally asked or implied. Sex is originally meant for reproduction, for producing children, but it is also the most powerful attraction in the material world. There are reasons for this, which I have discussed in our Bhagavad-Gita lectures. We should understand that the real purpose of family life is to produce children and raise them in a loving and God-conscious environment. Because we also have attachment for sex, it is better for a person to marry and fulfill their sexual desire in a lawful way with a committed partner, and in a relationship based on spiritual progress. Otherwise one´s rampant sexual desire wil lead one to lust after every man or woman, which will naturally distract one all-together from the spiritual path.

At the very least there are certain days on which sexual union shold be avoided. It should be avoided during the woman´s menstruation, on the day of the full moon, on Ekadasi, on appearance days of acaryas, or on appearance days of the Lord, such as Janmastami or Radhastami. On other days a couple should know at least that the goal of life is not to enjoy sex.

On the spiritual path one is meant to give up one´s bodily identification, which is rooted in the sexual urge. This can be done only by embracing our true identities as servants of the Lord. On the other hand, if one has an intense desire to enjoy sex and is not yet elevated enough to sublimate his sexual energy, it will be detrimental just to repress it, because repression creates an imbalance in one´s personality. The repressed desire will eventually come out with redoubled force or in some perverted manner. So in the 11th canto of SB, Krsna has made an allowance whereby one can enjoy sense pleasure that is not forbidden.

Certain activities, such as sex with another´s wife or with an unmarried woman, are completely forbidden and shold not be done, but other pleasures that are within the framework of religion are permissible. One should know, however, that these pleasures ultimately lead to misery. If anything leads to misery, an intelligent person should not become dependent on it. As one develops attachment to his guru, one will become free from sex desire; this is the only remedy for sexual attraction."


As I think that it is not proper etiquette to converse about one's guru publicly, please send me a PM if interested.

[Shuklambara]

The Gaudiya Vaishnava school is not easy. Om Visnupada A. C. Bhaktivendanta Swami and his guru, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, are staunch stalwarts in their line (as well as those before them).

That being said, you will find some of his disciples that seem to be introducing liberal and so-called "progressive" ideas.

For example, you see many ISKCON temples offering hatha yoga exercise classes in the temple, even though Bhaktivedanta Swami expressly forbid that. To add salt to the wound, they are not only doing the hatha yoga on the temple premises, but in the temple room itself... and with the Deity doors open (in other words, having mundane exercise classes in front of the Deities).

Another example is at least one ISKCON center having mundane wedding services within the temple for non-Vaishnava, non-Hindus.

Now, why is this? Is it just the influence of Kali Yuga (where religion becomes more and more degraded)? After all, the degradation of Kali Yuga is a slow process, where religious principles are slowly eroded and "watered down".

Some call these changes "liberal and progressive"; other call it "deviancies" and "heresies".

It is interesting to note that, of those introducing these things, all are Westerners. My theory is that, for a Westerner to take up something from another culture (as they took up the Gaudiya-Vaishnava religion instead the mainstream Judeo-Christian culture), they must have had a liberal, "open-minded" mindset. They seem to be continuing this mindset, whereas Bhaktivedanta Swami and his predecessors would certainly be considered ultra-conservative.

So, the bottom line is, if you want a "progressive" guru, you will have no problem finding one.

[philosoraptor]

I know of an ISKCON devotee who was offering "couples yoga" and other bizarre innovations some years ago.

I agree with the view that if you want a liberal guru who will tell you want you want to hear and thus cheat you, there should be no problem finding one.

Of course, there are those who would scream in protest that these people are just giving us their "personal opinions." What's wrong with that? How dare we force them to follow our standard? Not that we are actually doing that, but in the eyes of some, the mere discussing of the Vedic standard is tantamount to "forcing" others to follow it.

[gentleness]

Hi everyone! I'm new here and hope I don't sound stupid. I am a Christian who has become interested in the hindu way of life - especially devoted toward Krishna. My confusion all started when I read the bible. Some things just didn't seem right, and I found contradictions. I read "Eat, Pray, Love about 4 years ago, and I thought, "I want to experience the Divine Presence like the author did when she practiced chanting and meditating in the ashram." Then over the summer I read "The Journey Home": autobiography of an American Swami. It seemed like God really called him to follow Him as Krishna. The author and swami asked the same questions to gurus & devotees that I already had in my mind, and they were answered. Jesus said to just look at the fruit produced by the tree, and I saw how devoted the sadhus & devotees were to God and how selfless they were. One thing that I feel a little discouraged about is how strict a life style the Hare Krishnas live: no sex, even if you are married unless you are trying to conceive, no coffee or alcohol, no meat, fish or eggs. Are there people who worship Krishna who don't live that strict of a life style? Is it just the Hare Krishnas who are that strict? I was wondering if I said the Krishna mantra along with other chants if that would make me gradually give up meat and give up alcohol and coffee, or if I would be harming myself spiritually & or physically by saying the Krishna mantra when I still eat meat, drink alcohol and drink coffee.

[amalagaura]

Hi everyone! I'm new here and hope I don't sound stupid. I am a Christian who has become interested in the hindu way of life - especially devoted toward Krishna.
Hare Krishna

Did you receive any answers to your questions? This post was quite a while ago and I don't see responses.

with respect,
amala gaura das