Canines of Interest

[Jigar]

Namaste,
If we believe that we are a divine creation, there must be reasons for particular parts of our body. I would like to make an example of our canine teeth. In mammals, canines are single rooted teeth adapted for tearing food. Is it agreeable that these teeth are meant for tearing into meat and not only plants and vegetable which could have been torn by less sharp inscissors? So why would one say that eating another animal is not natural for us or shouldnt be allowed?

Maste nam,
Jigar

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~~

Namaste Yogacara's ( practitioners of yoga)

Gandhi said "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated"

There has been several discussions about the consumption of meat. Many ponder what to do. I do not have your answer but wanted to suggest that meat eating is more about Yama and Niyama , then how you "feel" or what your meditations are like e.g. how the food stuffs change your mental state.
Patanjali-ji laid out the various limbs of raja-yoga and Yama ( from yam, to restrain) is part of it. As you folks already know its made up of:
Ahimsa - or non-injury
Satya - Truth
Asteya - non-stealing
Brahmacharya - continence some say celibacy - but the consideration of sukrya and ojas
Aparigraha - or keeping your mitts off of others property!

When one chooses not to eat meat( fish, fowl, eggs, etc) it’s a action of Ahimsa, or non-injury. There always comes the rebuttal of non-injury of plants/vegetables, etc. Yes, this could be made. Yet the way the system works, with every fruit and veggie provided on this earth, it comes with a replenishing system - seeds to grow 10X to 100X the fruit or veggie or grain consumed. Nature is intelligent and designed accordingly.

To me and where I am at in my progress its based upon the least amount of non-injury possible to the world around me. This has as much to do with ahimsa as it does with karma.

Now, additional conversations can be had regarding ones meditative experiences based upon the food stuffs consumed. Many a Vaishnava and Saivite avoid meat AND garlic + caffeine + carrots + alcohol + onions, etc . They are seen as dulling the system i.e. tamasic in nature. I am not promoting any dietary approach to members here. Just giving you a POV on how others think their spiritual progress may be influenced or supported.

Over time actions in accord with the right thing to do become innate in ones behavior. In the interim, we need to choose what makes sense to do. This "sense" grows from what is right for me, then to my community, then my nation, my world, etc.
Finally stewardship at the cosmic level comes with enlightenment.


"All man’s miseries derive from not being able to sit quietly in a room alone " Pascal (the French mathematician)

pranams,

[saidevo]

Namaste Seekers.



So why would one say that eating another animal is not natural for us or shouldnt be allowed?


Nature comprises the Mineral, Vegetable, Animal and Human kingdoms in the physical world. In size also, (I think) the order is Mineral > Vegetable > Animal > Human. The five elements of nature are part of the Mineral kingdom.

When we talk about consumption for physical growth, vegetables consume only minerals. Animals consume vegetables only partially, and only air and water from the minerals. It is man who recklessly devours and consumes everything for physical growth, sustenance and comfort.

Against such human consumption, the rate of regeneration is the most for vegetables, then for animals (mostly conditioned by man) and woefully less for the minerals (the natural resources as well as the elements of nature).

Is this what God created man for? Just because man discovered agriculture later to hunting, he has acquired the habit of flesh eating and has been justifying it ever since, though he is not physiologically made for flesh food.

If God made man in His image, then whatever man has been doing throughout this Kali Yuga for his physical advancement is far from being natural.

[Jigar]

namaste Yajvan,

Hari Om
~~~~~~
Namaste Yogacara's ( practitioners of yoga)

Gandhi said "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated"

e.g. how the food stuffs change your mental state.

To me and where I am at in my progress its based upon the least amount of non-injury possible to the world around me. This has as much to do with ahimsa as it does with karma.

pranams,


Ghandi also said when once asked what he thought about western civilization. His response was: "I think it would be a good idea." LOL. slightly mocking you, sorry.

I have a parrot in India. My aunt wouldnt let me feed it any kind of meat because she said it would go mentally crazy. It bites for it. Never seen any evidence of this though. I've never heard of a mental comparsion between a vegetarian and a Non-vegetarian. Thinking, one might enjoy the killing of a animals.

Most animals in the US are cultivated to consume. Most everything from chickens to cows to aligators. So what harm is this God-like karma action of my doing to harm the environment? India has also chicken farms nowadays. Even if it is from real animals, we have limited our restrictions as to what animals we will eat, preserving the enivronment. And I agree it is outside those limits that are profound.

Maste Nam,
Jigar

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste,

Dear fellow HDF members, please let me rant for just one paragraph or two. This is not aimed at any one, just at a level of thinking or rationalzing that killing is ok.

Animals, they do suffer. Cow's, birds, fish, men and women suffer, why would one think its ok? Has anyone lost a loved one? Has anyone lost a pet that became part of the family? They no longer are just an animal, but part of an extended family. How is it different that a cow and calf do not have a relationship? An elephant ands is calf, bird and its chicks?
Because we cannot perceive it? Are we on this planet to squander and take what we like? ( tusks, ribs of food, horns of elk, hides, etc)

People hunt for sport, how can one think it's ok? Killing as a sport? How can one rationalize this? We are providing a service? The consequence for this killing and eating death is illness to human-kind. Take note that the most money spent in the USA is on heathcare. Not $$ Billions, but $$ Trillions, world wide. Every kind of problem, dis-ease, size shape, hurt, you can come up with.

I just do not get it... no one ( no one) can convince me in a logical argument that it's ok.. no matter if our teeth have fangs, we have claws, or our left over behaviors from 10million BC, we have clubs and hit each other over the head, and its a part of our DNA, etc. that is not the behaviour of a divine being. ' I must be more divine then the cow so I will eat the cow' - nonsense. "In India they eat meat, they eat chickens they eat...." who said Ignorance is only available in the USA? in Europe?

My recommendation - you can eat what you kill... now how do you think a 'happy meal' at McDonalds would be welcomed by a 8 yr old? Or liver pate, or baby veal (called bob veal), 2–3 days to 1 month of age, then slaughtered. Have your guests at a dinner party, go into the kitchen and butcher the veal in their evening gowns and tuxedo's then return to the dining room to eat the remains of their actions....

We are removed from our actions... "I buy the burger, it didn't hurt me, and I am on the way." Welcome to Kali Yuga.

that is my rant...

[sm78]

Namaste Yajvan,

I also agree with you. I am from Bengal region where partly driven by nature (most of earlier bengal/now bangladesh food from water sources is a need) but also by relentless changes and social trauma the region has faced, most people incl dwijas are non-vegetarians. I have now given up my environment induced habits. When vegetables are in abound to feed us, it makes no sense what so ever to have an animal killed for feeding the stomach. The Buddhistic argument, where it is OK to eat meat if you were not involved in its death process (directly or indirectly) is funny at the best ~ like many things its a sort of rationalization one should avoid in all thoughts.

However, in this Kali Yuga many more serious things are going astray than food habits.

[Shoshin]

My understanding of Buddha Dharma (and I am no expert) is not that exceptions to the prohibition of eating meat are simple loopholes to be exploited for personal pleasure, but rather that they exist for situations when compassion and gratitude would make refusal of an offering a graver wrong than consuming the already-killed and prepared meat.

In Sanatana Dharma, is the primary motivation generation of good karma for self, generation of good karma for all beings, avoidance of bad karma for self, avoidance of bad karma for all beings, some combination of these, all of the above, or none of the above?

Siddhhartha Gautama said, "If you truly loved yourself you would never harm another." Is this very different from Hindu perspective? I would love to know others' ideas on this.

Respectfully,
Shoshin

[Agnideva]

Namaste Shoshin,


In Sanatana Dharma, is the primary motivation generation of good karma for self, generation of good karma for all beings, avoidance of bad karma for self, avoidance of bad karma for all beings, some combination of these, all of the above, or none of the above?
I would say probably all of the above. It doesn't matter if you killed the animal yourself or had it killed for you, one still incurs the karma through the act of killing.


Siddhhartha Gautama said, "If you truly loved yourself you would never harm another." Is this very different from Hindu perspective? I would love to know others' ideas on this.Yes, one could say this too. Love of the self, doesn't just mean love for own's own self, but seeing the self in all beings also as one's own self.

Hope that helps ;).

OM Shanti,
A.

[saidevo]

Namaste.

Flesh-food is consumed for the first class protein it gives. This type of protein is supposed to be present only in the soybean in the vegetable class of eatables. With such technological advancements, I wonder why can't we have synthesised food made of vegetarian and probably chemical ingredients that are rich in first class protein so man can avoid flesh-food altogether. Sci-fi novels talk about food prescriptions in the form of tablets. Larry Collins and Dominique Lapierre's novel The Fifth Horseman talks about protein sticks stored in nuclear-bomb-safe bunks and tunnels that are supposed to have been built by the U.S. administration. Why shouldn't food scientists venture to make first class synthesised protein that could avoid the ill effects of the flesh-food.

However, tehnology has brought organized animal farming to man's doorsteps. Whether man has canine teeth to devour flesh-food or not, he has the animal instinct to hunt, only the scene has shifted from the jungles to posh domestic farms. Perhaps tomorrow we will have robots doing the job of the butcher.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namaste.

However, tehnology has brought organized animal farming to man's doorsteps. Whether man has canine teeth to devour flesh-food or not, he has the animal instinct to hunt, only the scene has shifted from the jungles to posh domestic farms. Perhaps tomorrow we will have robots doing the job of the butcher.

Namaste saidevo,
thank you for the post.... what you say is true. On the 'organized animal farming' this is needed for mass quantity harvesting. Unfortunatly it is devoid of compassion. Perfect example is foie gras , force feeding.

....and with our robot friends, It will be a shame to pass off the killing (dirty work) to automation - pushing the human further away from his actions. Not connecting the dots between the consequences of his actions that caused the result. It will be as if 'why is the universe punishing me, I have done nothing wrong'. Yet the action of butchering even at arms length, is still attached to some human and society-group.

pranams,

[Zardozi]

Namaste,
Reading these posts bewilders me of my ignorance to the consumption of meat. I cant think of any reason to do it but 1 reason. In a God-like manor, many taking Moksha... A persons soul into gods body becoming one spiritually, creating a "universal" being of everything. Well, as a human, my only method of similar universal oneness is this way by devouring the soul. I'll think about that next time I am enjoying another order of
Bheja Fry
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/6333/brainfrydu7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Swas Tik Hai,
Jigar

[mirabai]

Saidevo,

It is true that the protein found in flesh is not easily found in any ONE other food except soy. However, the same protein intake can be accomplished by consuming a variety of many different vegetables.

This method also assures us of adequate intake of the many other nutrients found in vegetables, not just protein.

The presence of God is not limited to the human species, so we must also discern God in other-than-human life forms. These forms must be within the reach of our concern and compassion. Our understanding of God grows as we learn to recognize God's presence in them.
........Anatanand Rambachan, professor of religion

[saidevo]

Namaste Mirabai.



It is true that the protein found in flesh is not easily found in any ONE other food except soy. However, the same protein intake can be accomplished by consuming a variety of many different vegetables.

This method also assures us of adequate intake of the many other nutrients found in vegetables, not just protein.

The presence of God is not limited to the human species, so we must also discern God in other-than-human life forms. These forms must be within the reach of our concern and compassion. Our understanding of God grows as we learn to recognize God's presence in them.
........Anatanand Rambachan, professor of religion

1. Yes, as you say, vegetables are the clue to nutrition. Plus the blessed rice. An article in Hinduism Today states this about the nutrition obtained from a rice meal:

"Dietetically, rice is cherished as a cholesterol-free, protein and calorie cornucopia. Most people in Asia obtain 60 to 80 percent of their calories from rice. Rice becomes a "complete protein" when eaten with beans or lentils because the enzymes in rice help to process the proteins in the lentil. As a result, rice is rarely served in India without some kind of lentil or dal."

For a detailed discussion on how Food decides what we are, check this thread in HDF:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=572

2. The quote about finding God in lower forms of life is really nice and enlightening.

[Jigar]

Namaste,
I kill for survival


Swas Tik Hai,
Jigar

[saidevo]

Namaste.



I kill for survival
Swas Tik Hai,


My support for vegetarianism is only personal with absolutely no didactic element in it. Being a vegetarian or not is a personal decision. I am fully aware of the difficulty for non-veggies giving up meat, which perhaps is even more than for veggies taking to meat.

That said, for spiritual progress, our bodies should attain higher vibrational frequencies, for which vegetarian food assists much more than flesh-food. swastik hona hai tho swas (saas) tik hona chahiye; aur swas tik nahi hoga nonveg khana say. I can read and write Hindi in a very limited way. What I meant here was that Svastik (being the symbol of spiritual attainment) can be attained only if the Svas (breath) is 'tik' (right); with flesh-food the breath can't become right due to its grosser vibrations. This again, is a personal perception of mine, take it or leave it.

[Jigar]

Namas Car,
I entertain your attitude of perception with a bold statement.
** unless we were in a situation where it was either you or me that lives.
Swas Tik Hai,
Jigar

[saidevo]

Namas Car,
I entertain your attitude of perception with a bold statement.
** unless we were in a situation where it was either you or me that lives.
Swas Tik Hai,
Jigar

You have now shown that your canine teeth are really sharp and strong. Still, in the unlikely event of such a situation, it would be my karma versus yours and not my canine vs yours. We eat to live or live to eat? I think that depends on the liver!

Now, here is a bolder proposition for you: suppose it is you vs them? That is, you are in a situation where it was you versus several beasts, some of them wild?

[Jigar]

Namaste,

You have now shown that your canine teeth are really sharp and strong. Still, in the unlikely event of such a situation, it would be my karma versus yours and not my canine vs yours. We eat to live or live to eat? I think that depends on the liver!

Now, here is a bolder proposition for you: suppose it is you vs them? That is, you are in a situation where it was you versus several beasts, some of them wild?

In such of an event of our karma challenge, I would play 2/3 paper-rock-scissors or similar game. Care to gamble? I've won pro-life already twice.
thats quite a simple solution. Its Me vs evil Beasts, I would kill them samurai style assuming I have a talwar of some sort) in killing protection of my survival like I said I would do.

Bhagawan Das,
Jigar

[Jigar]

Namaste,

Well, what if we made it fair, jigar. None of you can be armed. You can only use what you were given by nature as protection. :)

I have been reading about AND EXPERIENCING the results of ayurveda lately. I am convinced that nutrition and health in the united states is largely politically driven either directly or indirectly, through organizations funding their own studies. The beef industry just hates hearing how bad meat is for the body.

oddly enough, I'm still going to try and kill it or let it kill me if its ferocious. i have never heard of meatig eating as malnutritous asides from some rare bovine diseaes. But here in the US, I expect USDA Grade A prime meat. I've also been hearing on the daily show of bovine cloning which is happening now. Masses of mutated cows are being slaughtered.

Maste Nam,
Jigar

[Jigar]

Namaste,





P.S.-Jigar, you have a third alternative...to try and tame them.

Edited note: I could not find it, because I was spelling it wrong! Sorry about that. guggula

;) There is no 3rd alternative because you put forth a challenge with "vs", not a situation of me and beasts. In that event, I might just make a bonfire roast, but it depend on the beast, it may be of burden.

Swas Tik hai,
Jigar

[Jigar]

Namaste,

LOL How sweet. I can picture you and the beasts warming yourselves by the bonfire, sharing some tea and cookies. Peace on earth.;)

What is "Swas Tik hai"?

MG,
Swas Tik hai is my take from the word Swastik or Swastika, you know the symbol associated with Hitler. I'm saying the "breath is worth it" broken into syllablles.

Now...back to interests,
I wanted to mention chickens as well. India has 2 breeds, Desi annd farmed. Either is skimpy meat. Now back in the states, we have ultimate plump fat Purdue chickens. Once again we have a better "unreal" species to curb our appetites.
Many food borne diseases are instituted by the lack of sufficient cooking. people dont realize that chicken has to be cooked to 165 degrees, pork to 185, beef at 175 to kill food borne bactria. Many under temperatuure an inadequate kitchen sanitation reasons are the root cause of illnessess, not the animals.

Bhagawan Das,
Jigar

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

the word Swastik or Swastika, you know the symbol associated with Hitler.

How up-side down... Svastika - is a sign of auspiciousness. the one that Hitler used was inversed. The conversation is one of left facing or right facing. THe Nazi's took someting that was wholesome, and made it demonic. They ( the Nazi's) are truly the poster-boys for Kali Yuga.

[Agnideva]

Namaste Yajvan,

The conversation is one of left facing or right facing.
This is what I was told too ... but it turns out, Hindus use both right facing (more common) and left facing Swastikas (less common). Neither has any negative connotation though. Both represent svasti (auspiciousness or well-being). Here's something from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Hinduism):

In Hinduism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism), the two symbols represent the two forms of the creator God, Brahmā (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahma): facing right it represents the evolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_%28philosophy%29) of the universe (Pravritti), facing left it represents the involution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involution_%28philosophy%29) of the universe (Nivritti). It is also seen as pointing in all four directions (North, East, South and West) and thus signifies stability and groundedness. Its use as a sun symbol can first be seen in its representation of the god, Surya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surya). The swastika is considered extremely holy and auspicious by all Hindus, and is regularly used to decorate all sorts of items to do with Hindu culture. It is used in all Hindu yantras (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yantra) and religious designs. Throughout the subcontinent of India it can be seen on the sides of temples, written on religious scriptures, on gift items, and on letterhead. The Hindu god Ganesh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganesh) is often shown as sitting on a lotus flower on a bed of swastikas.

The swastika is found all over Hindu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu) temples, signs, altars, pictures and iconography where it is sacred. It is used in all Hindu weddings, festivals, ceremonies, houses and doorways, clothing and jewelry, motor transport and even decorations on food items like cakes and pastries. Amongst the Hindus of Bengal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal), it is common to see the name "swastika" (Bengali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali_language): স্বস্তিক sbastik) applied to a slightly different symbol, which has the same significance as the common swastika, and both symbols are used as auspicious signs. This symbol looks something like a stick figure of a human being.[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#_note-13) "Swastika" (স্বস্তিক Sbastik) is a common given name amongst Bengalis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali_people)[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#_note-14) and a prominent literary magazine in Kolkata (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolkata) (Calcutta) is called the Swastika.

The Aum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum) symbol is also sacred in Hinduism. While Aum is representative of a single primordial tone of creation, the Swastika is a pure geometrical mark and has no syllabic tone associated with it. The Swastika is one of the 108 symbols of Lord Vishnu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Vishnu) and represents the sun's rays without which there would be no life.OM Shanti,
A.

[Jigar]

Namaste,
The Swastik that Hitler used was counter-clockwise as well as one of the which is also tilted 45 degrees so it does not stand flat. Anyone know which one stands on a turned degree? Why is it angled if it is Hindu Swastik?

Swas Tik hai,
Jigar

[Jigar]

Namaste,
i would like to further puport my ideas about non vegetarian cuisine. But to my own perspective of culinary taste, i find that in comparison of non vegetarian regional cooking, Indian meat dishes are most authentic marintated and boiled dishes derived from the juices from the meat. major cuisines:
The chinese lack pronounced sauces in their dishes
the French Sauces are rich in fatty acids
Italian sauces are known to be derived from vegetable
American - well hot dogs and pizza lack sauces unless you count dip.
Eurocentric sauces are just ecsentric


Omkara,
Jigar

[satay]

On Hitler...up side down swastika or not...
since he was a christian, he is in heaven with the father o mighty singing his praises (hopefully) for eternity. Hopefully he hasn't murdered God the father and his son...

[Jigar]

Namaste,
does anyone besides me think of pig or pork as a rodent meat? I think they are really rodents from land of the giants. So Like Allah suggests, i stay away from pork with an exceptional slice of bacon.

Maste nam,
jigar

[sm78]

I never had the fortune of trying rodent meat in this life. Now that I have given up meat eating ~ will never know. I never liked pork btw, the very few time it was offered to me, i disliked it almost to the point of puking.

[Agnideva]

does anyone besides me think of pig or pork as a rodent meat? I think they are really rodents from land of the giants.
Hi Jigar. :p Care to explain how and why pigs are rodents?

A.

[Jigar]

Hi Jigar. :p Care to explain how and why pigs are rodents?

A.

Namaste agni,
if you must know...I had a dream. In this dream i was scrolling Yahoo! images. I came upon a page where this mysterious 50ft woman( who is a ravenous angel in other few dreams) began stimulating herself on top of from standing on one of the third identical picture of the empire state blding where I live in NY. I had a picture that I drew but it is lost.
Anyways... this leads me to believing that there is a land of the giants. And I was just thinkng that pigs would be really large rodents in their land. It may not be a rodent but an equallant.

maste nam,
jigar

[Agnideva]

Namaste Jigar,


if you must know...I had a dream. [...] And I was just thinkng that pigs would be really large rodents in their land. It may not be a rodent but an equallant.
Thanks Jigar. I was kinda thinking biologically how pigs could be rodents ... but I think I understand your perspective. In biology, pigs are very similar to humans, believe it or not. Some people think there's a future in harvesting pig organs to transplant into humans ~ I think this was tried with a pig heart, but wasn't successful.

OM Shanti,
A.

[Jigar]

Namaste,
I have the greatest craving for an Osttrich Steak. I hear it is one of the best. And I hope some make their way to my table