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realdemigod
12 July 2013, 08:46 AM
Namaste all,
I was wondering if anywhere in the scriptures drugs like hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens are mentioned which will give spiritual experience of oneself with Universe or Brahman?

I know about Soma Ras being mentioned in the Vedas. Like it are there more?

Necromancer
14 July 2013, 12:49 AM
Namaste all,
I was wondering if anywhere in the scriptures drugs like hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens are mentioned which will give spiritual experience of oneself with Universe or Brahman?

I know about Soma Ras being mentioned in the Vedas. Like it are there more?
Namaste.

I am curious as to why you would even want to know such things? What use is it?

It has been a very long time since I've read any scriptures, so I have forgotten if there are any references to drugs in them.

I do know that Soma is mentioned in the Rig Veda, but I have taken the word to mean 'the nectar of immortality being produced due to the churning of the Cosmic Ocean' rather than any kind of hallucinogenic drug.

Such interpretations are only man-made (usually by those who indulge in the consumption of mind-altering substances themselves as a form of...justification).

Similarly, Lord Shiva is said to have been 'reportedly' a user of cannabis and datura stramonium, which some claim is to have been 'written in a scripture somewhere'. Maybe it was, but if it has, I have never read it.

I often wonder why it is, that if God can attain altered states of conscious naturally, through samadhi, what use is there in taking psychoactive substances?

Even Baba Ram Dass (Richard Alpert) gave LSD to his Guru, Neem Karoli Baba who stated it had no effect on him.

I have smoked cannabis before (many times, in fact - I was addicted to it). What I know from my personal experiences, is that drug usage can show you where the door is, but cannot take you through it.

Those people who have said they've had mystical experiences whilst on drugs, have only witnessed what can be and not what is. They have been shown the destination, but they haven't reached anywhere. They will forever be looking at their tour map, without even taking a step. They will forever be 'on the outside, looking in'.

Even though drugs may not be mentioned in the Scriptures (although there may be obscure scriptures that may make mention of them), you can take what I say as being 'gospel'.

Aum Namah Shivaya

realdemigod
14 July 2013, 01:04 PM
I'm a proponent of shamanism and was simply looking for any mentioning of hallucinogens in Indian scriptures. I never experienced before but read a lot on them so very curious!

Necromancer
14 July 2013, 02:03 PM
Namaste.

Okay, I have just looked all over the internet for you and apart from Soma (which nobody can actually clarify what kind of drug that is), Hindu Scriptures don't mention drugs or alcohol at all.

The closest I could get to, is the Narayana Sukta, which a part of it (it wasn't mentioned which part of it) said something along the lines of 'anything ingested that detracts one from God is a sin'.

As a former shaman myself, I suggest forgetting about these 'Indians' and reading up on some Carlos Castaneda. :cool1:

Also, I used to like Terence McKenna, Gordon Wasson, Robert Forte, Timothy Leary, Roland Fischer and I cannot remember who else now.

That's the best I can do for you.

Aum Namah Shivaya

realdemigod
15 July 2013, 01:21 PM
Thanks Necromancer.
I don't follow anything till I'm quite convinced. I'm more spiritual and very less religious. I've not read much on Carlos Castaneda but some other Shaman authors. I've noticed Shamanism and Buddhism have many things in common.

I want to know why you gave up being Shaman?

Necromancer
16 July 2013, 05:37 AM
Thanks Necromancer.
I don't follow anything till I'm quite convinced. I'm more spiritual and very less religious. I've not read much on Carlos Castaneda but some other Shaman authors. I've noticed Shamanism and Buddhism have many things in common.

I want to know why you gave up being Shaman?
Namaste.

Let's just say that whenever you experience something due to the ingestion of psychedelic substances (I have eaten magic mushrooms about a dozen times as well), there's always a doubt in the back of your mind, whether it was a bona-fide experience or a drug-induced one. That doubt means it wasn't real anyway...so you always answer your own question.

When you experience such things naturally (and discount 'flashbacks'), there are no excuses or doubts...you cannot attribute that experience to anything more than your Sadhana and the grace of God.

I still smoke pot on the very rare occasion (about 4-5 times a year), but I do that out of boredom and for relaxation...when I am not in the position nor mood to meditate. I don't seek to use it as an aid to meditation anymore, due to all those reasons I mentioned above.

I also don't think to myself 'Shiva uses this, so it's okay for me'. He abandons me whenever I smoke pot and for weeks after that until it's out of my system.

It was just a phase I went through as a Wiccan...a phase I just moved/grew out of.

Aum Namah Shivaya

Avyaydya
21 July 2013, 08:17 PM
Namaste all,
I was wondering if anywhere in the scriptures drugs like hallucinogens, psychedelics or entheogens are mentioned which will give spiritual experience of oneself with Universe or Brahman?

I know about Soma Ras being mentioned in the Vedas. Like it are there more?

I think research into and use of these substances were a logical part of spiritual affairs. They must have used them in a variety of ways for different purposes and have had deep knowledge of them. This knowledge was obviously kept secret as we know little of it now, just like the scriptures were kept secret. There was a clear realisation that in the hands of the wrong people they would have disastrous effects on society.

You may be interested in the research of David L. Spess (http://unm.academia.edu/DavidLSpess) who has recently done new research into Soma. By using new techniques he came to the conclusion that different kinds of Soma were made of Water Lilies and Lotus plants. I would think that is not unlike seeing the great importance that is given to these plants.

Read the excerpt of his book: Soma, the Divine Hallucinogen (http://csp.org/chrestomathy/soma_divine_hallucinogen.html)


Chapter 3. The Identity of Plants Used As Soma
Although Western interest in soma began more than two hundred years ago, no detailed study of the facts has ever been presented. Even R. Gordon Wasson's research on soma, though very useful, is considered incomplete today. We are in a better position to solve the riddle of the soma plant and soma drinks now than ever before. Both Avestan and Rg Veda studies have progressed since Wasson's landmark book Soma was published in 1968. In addition, the study of psychoactive and medicinal plants has advanced significantly. Major botanical breakthroughs on both the Avestan haoma plant and the Rg Veda soma now make it possible to draw some conclusions about the identity of the soma plant. (page 25)

The Psychoactivity of Indian Nymphaea and Nelumbo Plants
Although a number of plants were used in the Rg Vedic soma ceremonies, there are two genera of indigenous Indian plants, the Nymphaea and Nelumbo, that stand out among the rest as being used to prepare soma drinks in the Rg Vedic soma ceremony. Nymphaea plants are known as water lilies, while Nelumbo plants are the true lotus plants. When the genera are used together in my discussions I sometimes refer to them as lotus plants.

... Some of these plants were certainly known as soma and are actually called soma in Sanskrit texts. Despite what has been stated in various articles and books about the nonentheogenic effects of Nelumbo and Nymphaea plants, some Indian varieties of lotus and many water lilies do contain a variety of alkaloids and other compounds that are entheogenic.

Here we can mention only a few studies of the psychoactive aspects of these plants as they pertain to our current subject of soma as a divine hallucinogen. Certain indigenous varieties of Indian Nymphaea plants, as well as Nelumbo plants are psychoactive and can be visionary and auditory entheogens when the sap or juice of the plant, and certain other parts, are prepared properly. These two genera can also be shown to have psychoactive properties that match those of soma on the Rg Veda.

The compounds found in certain Nymphaea species are known to cause excitation, ecstatic states, luminous visionary and auditory hallucinations, narcotic sedation, and other psychoactive effects. The experiences are dependent upon the dosage, preparation, and parts of the plant used. The compounds responsible are found in the flowers, sap, nectar, stems, rhizomes, and possibly the leaves. The flowers of certain Nymphaea species have been shown to induce ecstasy states similar to those of the drug, 3, 4-methylene-dioxymethamphetamine (MDMA), popularly known as "ecstasy." (pages 27-28)What is wrong with using drugs or reading the holy scripture to extract wisdom is what is wrong with trying to appropriate things in general. It is our desire that makes us want to acquire the results without walking the path. That is the essence of all adharm. Like people want to be rich without producing things of value themselves, or want to take power by force in stead of letting people grant it to them. In the same way people want to acquire wisdom and higher experiences the quick and easy way. What they thus acquire is not the same nor does it bring the same bless.

The stream that flows out of the womb of knowledge has colour nor taste, it is a cool clear stream of water, it takes on the colour that is mixed in it, it takes on the taste that is mixed in it. If you mix poison it will be poisonous. If you mix nectar, it will be nectar.

With drugs it is the same, the effect they have on the mind depends on the mind itself.

realdemigod
29 July 2013, 12:37 PM
Thanks Necromancer and Avyaydya

fem_phoenix1109
12 August 2013, 08:55 PM
Namaste,

Necromancer, I would love to hear some elaboration on this if you do not mind sharing:



He abandons me whenever I smoke pot and for weeks after that until it's out of my system.


Thank you.

Necromancer
27 August 2013, 01:02 AM
Namaste,

Necromancer, I would love to hear some elaboration on this if you do not mind sharing:



Thank you.
Namaste.

I'm sorry it took a while for me to reply to this one.

I didn't realise this thread had any more replies - until I replied to another thread in this section and saw this.

Even though I smoke dope occasionally, I know I shouldn't be doing so. However, 'knowing' and 'doing' are two different things.

I also 'feel' that Lord Shiva really doesn't like/approve of me doing it but that has not deterred me....yet.

Thus, the connection I feel to the Lord is lost during the times I am high and until the drugs are totally out of my system.

I mean, when I am stoned, I can convince myself I am close to the Lord, but that's only the drugs talking - it's not the 'real me' (like when somebody says 'I love you' when they are drunk, but wouldn't say it otherwise).

If I am going to lose all my inhibitions, I would much prefer if it were done naturally and then I cannot blame intoxication for that.

Lets just call it a 'guilty conscience'.

I hope this explains it to the best of your understanding.

Aum Namah Shivaya

the sadhu
31 October 2013, 03:06 PM
Hindu references to ethogenics(drugs imbibed for spiritual purposes) include the Kesin hymn, where the long haired ascetics wearing yellow, would ingest the poisonous drug, but through yoga become immortal from drinking Rudras poisonous elixer.

This validated not only in the Rig-Veda but in Shiva legends as well. One includes Shiva(the ultimate yogi) drinking the necter out of the sky, a necter which proved poisonous to the devas and the asuras. That's why Shiva has a blue throat, its a toxic side effect of the amrita he consumed.

The nath yogis who invented hath a yoga, also took psychedelics like ganja, and jimson weed, and others unknown.
It is also widely accepted by many shivites that Ganja drinks like bhang is the legendary soma mentioned by the rishis

Hare Jesus
07 December 2014, 06:07 PM
Yeah, exactly necro..

I've sort of realized the same thing in my own experience.

For example, when I used to take mushrooms I would have profound experiences and lessons learned, but I would always second guess it on it maybe being just me hallucinating.

Since then I have had other, sober, experiences that have validated what I had experienced before, but as you and many others have said;
Drugs can show you the door but they cant open it or take you through them.

States you achieve while "under the influence" are temporary as are the majority of experiences.
I say that because just like the Buddha said, in order to fully grasp/realize something, you have to experience it.

Sure, you might have experienced a profound reality, but in your sober state when thinking back on it it is almost as if you were just told it. When you are sober and experience it you have, for a lack of better terms, a point of reference for it.

You weren't 'out of your mind' when you experienced it therefore the insight is more Grounded.



This is no way minimizing things that can be understood while under the influence, but the influence those things have on you are temporary. This is why many people who have their first spiritual experiences on psychedelics often turn back to them time and time again, because when they are sober they don't have the same reality.

I am extremely grateful for the times when I was younger when I had taken them. I know it may seem odd to some people, but it showed me God in a scope I couldn't have fathomed before and it put me on to living a spiritual life which in turn saved it.
I was extremely depressed before and had constant suicidal thoughts and then I turned to God.
First I found him through altered states of consciousness in mushrooms, then in books, then in myself and the world.



I don't think anyone is in a spot to say that "it's never the beneficial" and it's only bad, because that's not true. It can show you the door but you, on your own, have to find it again when that experience is over and open it.
The true 'end' of a spiritual life is sobriety. Maybe not 100% because sometimes experiencing God and sharing his grace comes in small moments like having a beer with your dad and talking about life.


For me, I really took to bhakti. Devotion to The Lord in every aspect whether that be just driving your car or donating your time to someone less fortunate than you.
Still I smoke on and off(weed) but within the last 2 years I've made a dramatic change from literally smoking weed everyday for about 6 years to weaning myself off to eventually stop completely.


I mentioned bhakti because one thing I did/do and would recommend would be to devote it to God as well. I make hip hop music(just for me, I'm not a rapper and am not trying to be one) and one big habit that I have is to smoke and make music.

Well, for the last few years I have been making music strictly for God in my own imperfect way to try to have bhakti in another aspect of my life as well as trying to share the Lords grace with my friends if I happened to show them a song.
The way I looked at it, is if I made a song with good rhymes and they liked it, the lyrics would be subconsciously 'soaked in'', and maybe connect them with something they normally wouldn't have read, heard or thought about that could put them on The Path.

My life's "goal" if you will, my life's mission is only to live with more compassion than I did yesterday, and to connect others to God at whatever level their consciousness will allow them to identify with.

Anyway, sorry I'm rambling, it's my first post here, but what I do/did and would suggest is before you're about to light up give a moment to consciously reflect on what you are doing and consciously devote it to God. That even though you are going to partake you devote this, along with everything else in your life, to connecting yourself and others with God

It gives a whole other consciousness to the act.
That doesn't make smoking "righteous", but if when you smoke it's devoted to The Lord and pondering Him can it really be un-righteous?

Sadhaka
13 February 2017, 06:19 AM
Namaste.

I am curious as to why you would even want to know such things? What use is it?

It has been a very long time since I've read any scriptures, so I have forgotten if there are any references to drugs in them.

I do know that Soma is mentioned in the Rig Veda, but I have taken the word to mean 'the nectar of immortality being produced due to the churning of the Cosmic Ocean' rather than any kind of hallucinogenic drug.

Such interpretations are only man-made (usually by those who indulge in the consumption of mind-altering substances themselves as a form of...justification).

Similarly, Lord Shiva is said to have been 'reportedly' a user of cannabis and datura stramonium, which some claim is to have been 'written in a scripture somewhere'. Maybe it was, but if it has, I have never read it.

I often wonder why it is, that if God can attain altered states of conscious naturally, through samadhi, what use is there in taking psychoactive substances?

Even Baba Ram Dass (Richard Alpert) gave LSD to his Guru, Neem Karoli Baba who stated it had no effect on him.

I have smoked cannabis before (many times, in fact - I was addicted to it). What I know from my personal experiences, is that drug usage can show you where the door is, but cannot take you through it.

Those people who have said they've had mystical experiences whilst on drugs, have only witnessed what can be and not what is. They have been shown the destination, but they haven't reached anywhere. They will forever be looking at their tour map, without even taking a step. They will forever be 'on the outside, looking in'.

Even though drugs may not be mentioned in the Scriptures (although there may be obscure scriptures that may make mention of them), you can take what I say as being 'gospel'.

Aum Namah Shivaya

You say that People who had mystical experiences while being High only witnessed what "could" be, but not what "is". Why do you believe this? What if the insight this person gained, lasts even after is has been a long time since the High wore off?