Question about the 4th principle in ISCKON

[Arjuna]

Namaste,

Hope to see the answer from Pankaj or any other apologist of Prabhupada's version of Gaudiya-vaishnavism.
Question is put here:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=1015#post1015

BTW it is not a mere speculative matter. Actual people following this really suffer. But none of ISCKON gurus care, people are nothing for them it seems :(
Where is LOVE in practical life?
The one who dared to object ISCKON violations, Harikesha Swami Vishnupad, one of the closest disciples of Prabhupada BTW, was scorned by ISCKON. My respects to this person who had enough courage.

[Singhi Kaya]

Best of Luck!

[Arjuna]

Interesting enough, many of the followers and even close associates of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu did follow Tantric practice (sahajiya) which included sexual rituals, usually with another's wives (parakiya-shakti).
Of course, this fact was denied by Prabhupada. And yet we have to keep in mind that ISCKON represents only half of gaudiya-vaishnava tradition, the outer one. The hidden and exalted upasana of sahajiya (which is raganuga-bhakti level, succeeding vadhi-bhakti) is not at all present there.

[Arjuna]

Sushil Kumar De in his "Early History of the Vaishnava Faith and Movement in Bengal" (Calcutta, 1942) writes:
"We hear of the adorers of Chaitanya's Nagara-bhava, followers of Advaita, admirers of Gadadhara, devotees as well as detractors of Nityananda. Each of Chaitanya's associates and devotees appears to have developed a considerable community of disciples of his own, and taught the cult of bhakti according to the light which each had received in his own way from the Master." (P. 82)

E. C. Dimock in "The Place of the Hidden Moon" (University of Chicago Press, 1989) writes:
"There is a considerable evidence of Sahajiya leanings of many of Nityananda's followers." (P. 91)
In the same work he shows the fact that younger wife of Nityananda, Jahnava, was a Sahajiya guru (P. 98).

[orlando]

Namaste Shri Arjuna.
Well,as you know I am not an ISKCON a follower.I am a Sri vaishnava of Ramanuja-sampradaya.
However I suggest you to read http://www.harekrsna.com/practice/4regs/sex.htm
You will find the Prabhupada's words about this topic.
Regards,
Orlando.

[Arjuna]

Namaste Shri Arjuna.
Well,as you know I am not an ISKCON a follower.I am a Sri vaishnava of Ramanuja-sampradaya.
However I suggest you to read http://www.harekrsna.com/practice/4regs/sex.htm
You will find the Prabhupada's words about this topic.
Regards,
Orlando.

Thank U for a link.

Rather interesting that after providing a quote from Bhagavata: "Sex with one's wife according to the scriptural injunctions is also accepted as brahmacarya (celibacy), but illicit sex is opposed to religious principles, and it hampers advancement in spiritual consciousness" (Srimad-Bhagavatam 5:5:10-13), it continues with the odd statement that sex is only for begetting children, which is obviously not the case according to Shruti and Smriti.
If it was so, Gita would verily say that clearly. But Gita speaks only about balance in food and enjoyments (yuktAhAravihArasyAdi) and acknowledges Kama as a form of Krishna. And Kama is verily NOT a desire to procreate.

Hari OM

[orlando]

Namaste again.
Shri Arjuna,maybe you will find interesting Rig-Veda,Book 10,Hymn 85.
I will use the translation at http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10085.htm
Please note the verse 37.
HYMN LXXXV. Surya's Bridal.
1. TRUTH is the base that bears the earth; by Surya are the heavens sustained.
By Law the Adityas stand secure, and Soma holds his place in heaven.
2 By Soma are the Adityas strong, by Soma mighty is the earth.
Thus Soma in the midst of all these constellations hath his place.
3 One thinks, when they have brayed the plant, that he hath drunk the Soma's juice;
Of him whom Brahmans truly know as Soma no one ever tastes.
4 Soma, secured by sheltering rules, guarded by hymns in Brhati,
Thou standest listening to the stones none tastes of thee who dwells on earth.
5 When they begin to drink thee then, O God, thou swellest out again.
Vayu is Soma's guardian God. The Moon is that which shapes the years.
6 Raibhi was her dear bridal friend, and Narasamsi led her home.
Lovely was Surya's robe: she came to that which Gatha had adorned.
7 Thought was the pillow of her couch, sight was the unguent for her eyes:
Her treasury was earth and heaven..when Surya went unto her Lord.
8 Hymns were the cross-bars of the pole, Kurira-metre decked the car:
The bridesmen were the Asvin Pair Agni was leader of the train.
9 Soma was he who wooed the maid: the groomsmen were both Asvins, when
The Sun-God Savitar bestowed his willing Surya on her Lord.
10 Her spirit was the bridal car; the covering thereof was heaven:
Bright were both Steers that drew it when Surya approached her husband's, home.
11 Thy Steers were steady, kept in place by holy verse and Sama-hymn:
All car were thy two chariot wheels: thy path was tremulous in the sky,
12 Clean, as thou wentest, were thy wheels wind, was the axle fastened there.
Surya, proceeding to her Lord, mounted a spirit-fashioried car.
13 The bridal pomp of Surya, which Savitar started, moved along.
In Magha days are oxen slain, in Arjuris they wed the bride.
14 When on your three-wheeled chariot, O Asvins, ye came as wooers unto Surya's bridal,
Then all the Gods agreed to your proposal Pusan as Son elected you as Fathers.
15 O ye Two Lords of lustre, then when ye to Surya's wooing came,
Where was one chariot wheel of yours? Where stood ye for die Sire's command?
16 The Brahmans, by their seasons, know, O Surya, those two wheels of thine:
One kept concealed, those only who are skilled in highest truths have learned.
17 To Surya and the Deities, to Mitra and to Varuna.
Who know aright the thing that is, this adoration have I paid.
18 By their own power these Twain in close succession move;
They go as playing children round the sacrifice.
One of the Pair beholdeth all existing things; the other ordereth seasons and is born again.
19 He, born afresh, is new and new for ever ensign of days he goes before the Mornings
Coming, he orders f6r the Gods their portion. The Moon prolongs the days of our existence.
20 Mount this, all-shaped, gold-hued, with strong wheels, fashioned of Kimsuka and Salmali, light-rolling,
Bound for the world of life immortal, Surya: make for thy lord a happy bridal journey.
21 Rise up from hence: this maiden hath a husband. I laud Visvavasu with hymns and homage.
Seek in her father's home another fair one, and find the portion from of old assigned thee.
22 Rise up from hence, Visvavasu: with reverence we worship thee.
Seek thou another willing maid, and with her husband leave the bride.
23 Straight in direction be the path:s, and thornless, whereon our fellows travel to the wooing.
Let Aryaman and Bhaga lead us: perfect, O Gods, the union of the wife and husband.
24 Now from the noose of Varuna I free thee, wherewith Most Blessed Savitar hath bound thee.
In Law's seat, to the world of virtuous action, I give thee up uninjured with thy consort.
25 Hence, and not thence, I send these free. I make thee softly fettered there.
That, Bounteous Indra, she may live blest in her fortune and her sons.
26 Let Pusan take thy hand and hence conduct thee; may the two Asvins on their car transport thee.
Go to the house to be the household's mistress and speak as lady ito thy gathered people.
27 Happy be thou and prosper witlh thy children here: be vigilant to rule thy household in this home.
Closely unite thy body with this; man, thy lord. So shall ye, full of years, address your company.
28 Her hue is blue and red: the fienod who clingeth close is driven off.
Well thrive the kinsmen of this bride the husband is bourid fast in bonds.
29 Give thou the woollen robe away: deal treasure to the Brahman priests.
This female fiend hath got her feet, and as a wife attends her lord.
30 Unlovely is his body when it glistens with this wicked fiend,
What time the husband wraps about his limbs the garment of his wife.
31 Consumptions, from her people, which follow the bride's resplendent train,-
These let the Holy Gods again bear to the place from which they came.
32 Let not the highway thieves who lie in ambush find the wedded pair.
By pleasant ways let them escape the danger, and let foes depart.
33 Signs of good fortune mark the bride come all of you and look at her.
Wish her prosperity, and then return unto your homes again.
34 Pungent is this, and bitter this, filled, as it were, with arrow-barbs, Empoisoned and.not fit for use.
The Brahman who knows Surya well deserves the garment of the bride.
35 The fringe, the cloth that decks her head, and then the triply parted robe,-
Behold the hues which Surya wears these doth the Brahman purify.
36 I take thy hand in mine for happy fortune that thou mayst reach old age with me thy husband.
Gods, Aryaman, Bhaga, Savitar, Purandhi, have given thee to be my household's mistress.
37 O Pusan, send her on as most auspicious, her who shall be the sharer of my pleasures;
Her who shall twine her loving arms about me, and welcome all my love and mine embraces.38 For thee, with bridal train, they, first, escorted Surya to her home.
Give to the husband in return, Agni, the wife with progeny.
39 Agni hath given the bride again with splendour and with ample life.
Long lived be he who is her lord; a hundred autumns let him live.
40 Soma obtained her first of all; next the Gandharva was her lord.
Agai was thy third husband: now one bornof woman is thy fourth.
41 Soma to the Gandharva, and to Agni the Gandharva gave:
And Agni hath bestowed on me riches and sons and this my spouse.
42 Be ye not parted; dwell ye here reach the full time of human life.
With sons and grandsons sport and play, rejoicing in your own abode.
43 So may Prajapati bring children forth to us; may Aryaman adorn us till old age come nigh.
Not inauspicious enter thou thy husband's house: bring blessing to our bipeds and our quadrupeds.
44 Not evil-eyed, no slayer of thy husband, bring weal to cattle, radiant, gentlehearted;
Loving the Gods, delightful, bearing heroes, bring blessing to our quadrupeds and bipeds.
45 O Bounteous Indra, make this bride blest in her sons and fortunate.
Vouchsafe to her ten sons, and make her husband the eleventh man.
46 Over thy husband's father and thy husband's mother bear full sway.
Over the sister of tby lord, over his brothers rule supreme.
47 So may the Universal Gods, so may the Waters join our hearts.
May Matarisvan, Dhatar, and Destri together bind us close.


Regards,
Orlando.

[Arjuna]

Namaste,

Thank U, this is nice.
I have seen some similar passages in Atharvana-samhita, there are several hymns dedicated to marriage.

[orlando]

Namaste.
Shri Arjuna,please read the following verses of Srimad Bhagavata Purana,Canto 11,Chapter 5:
(10) The Soul of the most worshipable Controller just like the sky eternally situated in all embodied beings, is the Ultimate Controller glorified by the Vedas, but the unintelligent don't take heed; they rather go on discussing the topics of their whimsical pleasures. (11) The indulgence in sex and the taking of meat and alcohol indeed always found in the conditioned living being are verily by no command of scripture endorsed; what in regard of these is prescribed for [respectively] the marriage, the sacrifice and the ritual use of wine, is there to the end of their cessation [see also 1.17: 38-39]. (12) Of all wealth [to be acquired] is religiosity the only fruit from which indeed there is the knowledge along with the wisdom and the subsequent liberation; they so successful in their homes do not realize the insurmountable power of death over their bodies [see also 3.30: 7, 7.6: 8, 4.29: 52-55 but also: 4.22: 10]. (13) It is enjoined that wine should be taken by smelling it and that likewise an animal should be killed as prescribed and not in wanton violence [with wide-scale animal slaughter]; the same way is sex there for begetting children and not for the sensual pleasure [on itself] [B.G. 7-11]; this most pure, their own proper duty, do they [the unintelligent] not understand [see also 7.15].

I used the translation at http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto11/chapter5.html

At http://www.srimadbhagavatam.com/11/5/en there is the translation of disciples of Prabhupada (who died before complete commentary to Bhagavatam).
SB 11.5.10: The Personality of Godhead is eternally situated within the heart of every embodied being; still the Lord remains situated apart, just as the sky, which is all-pervading, does not mix with any material object. Thus the Lord is the supreme worshipable object and the absolute controller of everything. He is elaborately glorified in the Vedic literature, but those who are bereft of intelligence do not like to hear about Him. They prefer to waste their time discussing their own mental concoctions, which inevitably deal with gross material sense gratification such as sex life and meat-eating.

SB 11.5.11:In this material world the conditioned soul is always inclined to sex, meat-eating and intoxication. Therefore religious scriptures never actually encourage such activities. Although the scriptural injunctions provide for sex through sacred marriage, for meat-eating through sacrificial offerings and for intoxication through the acceptance of ritual cups of wine, such ceremonies are meant for the ultimate purpose of renunciation.

SB 11.5.12: The only proper fruit of acquired wealth is religiosity, on the basis of which one can acquire a philosophical understanding of life that eventually matures into direct perception of the Absolute Truth and thus liberation from all suffering. Materialistic persons, however, utilize their wealth simply for the advancement of their family situation. They fail to see that insurmountable death will soon destroy the frail material body.

SB 11.5.13: According to the Vedic injunctions, when wine is offered in sacrificial ceremonies it is later to be consumed by smelling, and not by drinking. Similarly, the sacrificial offering of animals is permitted, but there is no provision for wide-scale animal slaughter. Religious sex life is also permitted, but only in marriage for begetting children, and not for sensuous exploitation of the body. Unfortunately, however, the less intelligent materialists cannot understand that their duties in life should be performed purely on the spiritual platform.


Regards,
Orlando.

[Arjuna]

I have seen these passages. They are told in special context and are not related to general case.
Moreover, they contradict Shruti and thus cannot be accepted as authorative.

[orlando]

Namaste.
Shri Arjuna,how is that they contradict Shruti?And how they are told in special context?

[orlando]

Please read the whole context at http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto11/chapter5.html

[Arjuna]

Namaste,

I have seen the text — the whole passage is aimed against those who do not care about God and not meant for all, especially not meant for true Vaishnavas!

This view does contradict Shruti, since Vedas, Upanishads and Gita acknowledge sex as a aspect of love and means to enjoyment, and do not restrict it to procreation.

[Jalasayanan]

Is there by any means we can stop discussing basic instincts and start discussing something usefull

1. We can form a comparitive chart which lists all common practises amongst different religions
2. We can discuss philosophies in depth without making way for debating
3. We can post some small books like Hasthamalakeeyam or Geethaartha Sangraha or chatusloki with meanings

Is that an impossibility?

[kimtadbrahma]

Just a couple of points to add here. I think the suggestion that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu or his direct associates indulged in tantric or other forms of sexuality is quite wrong. There is no reference to this in any of the biographies and according to Chaitanya Charitamrita he was very strict in observing samnyasa vows in relation to women. The tendency in the Chaitanya Sampradaya towards practice of this kind would seem to be a later deviance from the original ideals, which emphasised celibacy. It is also interesting to note Suka's reply to Parik**** in the Bhagavata when the latter raises the point about Krishna lila and human dharma. Basically he says: you are not God so don't think you can immitate the lila of God.

In relation to the Gita, someone above cited 6.17 as teaching moderation rather than restraint. That is a possible interpretation but one must also note 6.14, which refers to brahmachari vrate sthitah for one practising the Yoga system advocated in that chapter. I am not myself advocating that strict line on sexuality, but I think it is unfair to try to accuse ISKCON or Swami Prabhupada of being deviant in the position they take on this issue.

[Arjuna]

Is there by any means we can stop discussing basic instincts and start discussing something usefull

Please see the name of the thread ;)

If U aren't interested in the topic, who forces U to read or post? U are free to start any topic or take part in those which are of interest to U.

I do not think this is "useless", since due to abovementioned "4th principle" a considerable number of people are forced either to hypocricy or to suppression, both of which are harmful and wrong.

[orlando]

Namaste.
Shri Arjuna please read the following.By http://www.yoga-age.com/modern/brahpractice.html#_Toc441557067
Voluntary Self-restraint Is No Suppression
There is a Western idea that sex is a natural urge and so free expression should be given to it. And if free expression is not given to it, the sex urge will become suppressed, will become repressed. And if it is thus suppressed and repressed, it will create all sorts of abnormalities within you and you will develop neurosis and various types of complex and you will become an abnormal person. There is partial truth in it. There is truth in it to the extent that if this suppression and repression is forced upon you by circumstances beyond your control, by social environment, by other taboos and deep-seated inhibitions within you, due to your father’s advice or mother’s dominance or family and all, then it can give rise to some undesirable inner abnormality. But this situation never applies if realizing the greatness of a higher goal and realizing the necessity of this important Sadhana of self-control in order to attain that goal, you make up your mind fully, willingly and voluntarily. Then there is no question of suppression. If with a full willing heart you enter into this course of self-discipline and self-restraint, then there is no question of suppression. No one is asking you to do it. You want to do it. You are yourself desirous of it. So, done with full willingness, done with great enthusiasm, it becomes a voluntary thing. Then, psychological situations will not arise. On the contrary, every time you succeed in controlling the sense-urge, you get a sense of elation, you get a sense of achievement you get a sense of inner satisfaction that you have succeeded. So, it is something that goes on giving you endless satisfaction and a sense of triumph, a sense of overcoming. Therefore it is entirely a positive process, a very creative and positive process, not a negative and suppressive process. So, regarding Brahmacharya, if you take the right approach and attitude towards it, then it is simple. It is a question of conserving energy, of preserving energy, so that it may be utilized for higher things which you wish to attain.

Regards,
Orlando.

[Arjuna]

Namaste.
Shri Arjuna please read the following.By http://www.yoga-age.com/modern/brahpractice.html#_Toc441557067
Voluntary Self-restraint Is No Suppression
There is a Western idea that sex is a natural urge and so free expression should be given to it. And if free expression is not given to it, the sex urge will become suppressed, will become repressed. And if it is thus suppressed and repressed, it will create all sorts of abnormalities within you and you will develop neurosis and various types of complex and you will become an abnormal person. There is partial truth in it. There is truth in it to the extent that if this suppression and repression is forced upon you by circumstances beyond your control, by social environment, by other taboos and deep-seated inhibitions within you, due to your father’s advice or mother’s dominance or family and all, then it can give rise to some undesirable inner abnormality. But this situation never applies if realizing the greatness of a higher goal and realizing the necessity of this important Sadhana of self-control in order to attain that goal, you make up your mind fully, willingly and voluntarily. Then there is no question of suppression. If with a full willing heart you enter into this course of self-discipline and self-restraint, then there is no question of suppression. No one is asking you to do it. You want to do it. You are yourself desirous of it. So, done with full willingness, done with great enthusiasm, it becomes a voluntary thing. Then, psychological situations will not arise. On the contrary, every time you succeed in controlling the sense-urge, you get a sense of elation, you get a sense of achievement you get a sense of inner satisfaction that you have succeeded. So, it is something that goes on giving you endless satisfaction and a sense of triumph, a sense of overcoming. Therefore it is entirely a positive process, a very creative and positive process, not a negative and suppressive process. So, regarding Brahmacharya, if you take the right approach and attitude towards it, then it is simple. It is a question of conserving energy, of preserving energy, so that it may be utilized for higher things which you wish to attain.

Regards,
Orlando.

Namaste,

Since i am not a physician, let me not enter into any arguement on this. I can admit that in a case of serious practice of hatha-yoga (or any similar system, like chinese chi-kung) no physical damage from celibacy occurs.
We were not discussing a case of brahmacharis however, but only of grihasthis. And in this case the problem is very different and isn't limited to physical suppression or self-restraint.

Moreover, the idea that through sex one inevitably loses energy is essentially wrong. If sex is in love, it brings more energy. In a case it is a mere copulation for bodily pleasure, then yes, it results in the energy loss.

A yogi who is married is supposed to make sex divine, and who is single (and wishes to be) is supposed to keep brahmacharya as self-willed celibacy.

[Jalasayanan]

Please see the name of the thread ;)

If U aren't interested in the topic, who forces U to read or post? U are free to start any topic or take part in those which are of interest to U.

I do not think this is "useless", since due to abovementioned "4th principle" a considerable number of people are forced either to hypocricy or to suppression, both of which are harmful and wrong.
I have no problems in ignoring but all your topics are dealing with basic instincts only - in a way or another.

Hope Mr Satay or Mr B Yoga Seeker did not made this forum only for basic instincts. Or atleast instead of using the three letter word often you can find some better variance, which could save some face

[Ram]

Namaste,

Since i am not a physician, let me not enter into any arguement on this. I can admit that in a case of serious practice of hatha-yoga (or any similar system, like chinese chi-kung) no physical damage from celibacy occurs.
We were not discussing a case of brahmacharis however, but only of grihasthis. And in this case the problem is very different and isn't limited to physical suppression or self-restraint.

Moreover, the idea that through sex one inevitably loses energy is essentially wrong. If sex is in love, it brings more energy. In a case it is a mere copulation for bodily pleasure, then yes, it results in the energy loss.

A yogi who is married is supposed to make sex divine, and who is single (and wishes to be) is supposed to keep brahmacharya as self-willed celibacy.

You can either be a Yogi or a Bogi. If you attempt both you will be a Rogi. What is the need for grihastas to involve in Yoga at all?

Your whole idea violates Yama and Niyama, the cornerstones of any Yogic practice. This so called charge against the 4th principle in ISKCON is equally applicable to Srivaishnavas as well, where it is an unwritten rule. Every Hindu school preaches the notion of having reduced material desires and dedicating your life for God and Godly activities -- naturally implying these rules.

[orlando]

Namaste all.
When Shri Chaitanya was at Purī his feminine devotees could not even come near to offer their respects.
One of his personal associates, namely Choṭa Haridāsa, was associated with Shri Caitanya along with his other confidential personal associates, but somehow or other this Choṭa Haridāsa looked lustily on a young woman, and Shri Caitanya was so strict that he at once rejected him from the society of His personal associates.Shri Caitanya said, "For a sannyāsī or anyone who is aspiring to get out of the clutches of material nature and trying to elevate himself to the spiritual nature and go back home, back to Godhead, for him, looking toward material possessions and women for sense gratification — not even enjoying them, but just looking toward them with such a propensity — is so condemned that he had better commit suicide before experiencing such illicit desires."

Haridasa was never accepted again, even though Shri Chaitanya was implored to excuse Haridasa for the mistake. Junior Haridasa afterwards committed suicide due to being disassociated from the company of Shri Chaitanya, and the news of suicide was duly related to Shri Chaitanya.He said that Haridasa had rightly met with the proper punishment.

Regards,
Orlando.

[Arjuna]

Namaste all.
When Shri Chaitanya was at Pur? his feminine devotees could not even come near to offer their respects.
One of his personal associates, namely Chot?a Harid?sa, was associated with Shri Caitanya along with his other confidential personal associates, but somehow or other this Chot?a Harid?sa looked lustily on a young woman, and Shri Caitanya was so strict that he at once rejected him from the society of His personal associates.

I have read about this story. And i really hope it is a later invention, since i believe Chaitanya was a true saint and thus couldn't behave in a described manner.

In any case, this issue is relevant for SANNYASA-ashrama, which is obviously different in its dharma from Grihastha.

[orlando]

Also I hope it is a later invention.I can't believe that Shri Chaitanya didn't forget Haridasa.He accepted even ex-sinners in his company.

[Arjuna]

You can either be a Yogi or a Bogi. If you attempt both you will be a Rogi. What is the need for grihastas to involve in Yoga at all?

This is utterly wrong. Yoga is the very essence of Hinduism (and every true religion), it is connection and union with God. Everyone is supposed to be a Yogi, since that is the purpose of human life — to know God.
Yoga is a spiritual Path which is beyond any ashramas — which are social stages only. One can know Atman and unite with God in any stage and condition.
True Yoga has nothing to do with rejection of the world, since a Yogi sees everything as a manifestation of his own Consciousness. Grihasthi has a chance to make the Divine Samarasya apparent in relationships with his wife, who is Sakshan-Mahadevi.

Kularnava and Mahanirvana Tantras state that for Kaula-yogi Moksha and Bhoga are one. In Srividya it is also said, shrIsundarI sevanatatparANAm bhuktiM cha muktiM cha karastha eva.


Your whole idea violates Yama and Niyama, the cornerstones of any Yogic practice. This so called charge against the 4th principle in ISKCON is equally applicable to Srivaishnavas as well, where it is an unwritten rule. Every Hindu school preaches the notion of having reduced material desires and dedicating your life for God and Godly activities -- naturally implying these rules.

No Hindu school preaches that sex in marriage is only for procreation. This idea is a blatant violation of Vedic and Smarta dharma.
To love one's wife is NOT a "material desire". I regret if for U it is so...

Yama and Niyama which are given in Yoga-sutras are applicable to Patanjali's system and not to each and every.
Shaiva Yoga is based on Shaivagamas and Bhairavagamas, which have their own Niyamas. It is a mistake and ignorance to impose Ur personal idea upon every Hindu tradition.

[Arjuna]

I have no problems in ignoring but all your topics are dealing with basic instincts only - in a way or another.
Hope Mr Satay or Mr B Yoga Seeker did not made this forum only for basic instincts. Or atleast instead of using the three letter word often you can find some better variance, which could save some face

Please, as U wish :)

U prefer to see it as a "basic instinct", and i see it as a function of Consciousness. Views differ, and that's OK :p

[Arjuna]

This so called charge against the 4th principle in ISKCON is equally applicable to Srivaishnavas as well, where it is an unwritten rule.

In most cases an "unwritten" rule is an imagined one ;)
This is not a kinda secret teaching, but a rule of conduct, which either is present in Vaishnava-dharma or absent from it.

Dharma is clearly put in Shastras. Since this "4th principle" is absent from Vedas and Dharma-shastras, it has to be at least written down in Vaishnava scriptures.
Till now the only reference is a verse from Bhagavata, which was told in regard of materialists and NOT devotees.

Thus, most probably it simply doesn't exist as a rule.

Also, i strongly doubt that all Shrivaishnavas will agree with what U said.

[grames]

Regulation means controlling the senses. Its not just ISKCON which prescribes these regulations but any 'genuine' spiritual movement does mandate these regulations. The objective of spiritual seeking is to be completely absorbed with the God and that absorption includes feelings, thoughts and all sense related activities.

If you want God and spiritual life as time pass, you have to object these regulations and judging it as wrong is due to the cultural barriers and nothing else.

[Arjuna]

Regulation means controlling the senses. Its not just ISKCON which prescribes these regulations but any 'genuine' spiritual movement does mandate these regulations. The objective of spiritual seeking is to be completely absorbed with the God and that absorption includes feelings, thoughts and all sense related activities.
If you want God and spiritual life as time pass, you have to object these regulations and judging it as wrong is due to the cultural barriers and nothing else.

Namaste,

This type of generalisation U make serves only confusion :p
Of course, all spiritual paths imply control of mind, senses and actions. However suppression and control are very different if not say opposite. True control is awareness, while suppression is unconsciousness.

God made a sexual urge in a human being verily not solely for procreation. Procreative instinct is inherent in all creatures, but only human is capable of erotic love and aesthetic experience of (Rasa) sex. Smriti restrict sexual relations to marriage, which is a rule for all orthodox Hindu traditions (apart from Tantric, which can be named heterodox, Atimargika). And nowhere in Shruti & Smriti it is said that sex is to be restricted to procreation alone. This 4th principle is imagined by Prabhupada (or his guru, Bhaktisiddhanta) and it clearly goes [I]against Dharma.

U may see a thread about Shrivaishnavism as well, where this topic is discussed in more detail.

[grames]

If you come from the philosophies of OSHO etc.. it is very difficult to differentiate the meaning of 'regulation' from restriction. As a six sensed living, you can 'regulate' your urges and as you progress spiritually this regulation itself is not necessary as you will not have taste for such sense gratification.

If your mind is so developed and you can think of Lord even when you are actively participating in a sexual union, then you don't require this 'regulation' and if this cannot be achived, then your excuses of justifying it as "God" given and God created won't stand. Do you think it is possible to achive such state?

So, when you are a beginner , follow these regulative process by engaging with only one partner who is married to you and committed to you. Mind is like a monkey and with out regulation you cannot anchor it and with out anchoring it at the feet of Lord you will not progress. Whether it is Sri Vaishnava or Advaita or any hindu traditions, the ultimate prescription is to master all the senses and absorb all completely with and for Lord. If the goal is not understood, these regulations might sound unhealthy but it is not against Dharma.

[Arjuna]

If your mind is so developed and you can think of Lord even when you are actively participating in a sexual union, then you don't require this 'regulation' and if this cannot be achived, then your excuses of justifying it as "God" given and God created won't stand. Do you think it is possible to achive such state?

Namaste,

I do not "think" it is possible, i know this.

For a note, process in question is not "thinking of the Lord," but bhAvanA. There is no exact english equilavent, but in any case it isn't a thought process.

[Singhi Kaya]

bhaAvanA = reflection ?

[satay]

Namaste,

I do not "think" it is possible, i know this.

For a note, process in question is not "thinking of the Lord," but bhAvanA. There is no exact english equilavent, but in any case it isn't a thought process.


couldn't bhAvanA be translated to 'feeling'?

[Znanna]

If you come from the philosophies of OSHO etc.. it is very difficult to differentiate the meaning of 'regulation' from restriction. As a six sensed living, you can 'regulate' your urges and as you progress spiritually this regulation itself is not necessary as you will not have taste for such sense gratification.

If your mind is so developed and you can think of Lord even when you are actively participating in a sexual union, then you don't require this 'regulation' and if this cannot be achived, then your excuses of justifying it as "God" given and God created won't stand. Do you think it is possible to achive such state?

So, when you are a beginner , follow these regulative process by engaging with only one partner who is married to you and committed to you. Mind is like a monkey and with out regulation you cannot anchor it and with out anchoring it at the feet of Lord you will not progress. Whether it is Sri Vaishnava or Advaita or any hindu traditions, the ultimate prescription is to master all the senses and absorb all completely with and for Lord. If the goal is not understood, these regulations might sound unhealthy but it is not against Dharma.


It seems to me that attachment to regulation or restriction is equally as distracting as attachment to whatever that regulation or restriction concerns.

"Without lust for result" comes to mind.

In my opinion, there can be an argument made for extreme indulgence to the point of disinterest as a means for regulation if not restriction!

Balance of the polarities, or if one prefers, unification of the duality .. is the means as or more important than the goal of integration of the multiplicity into the ONE?

Namaste,
ZN

[Arjuna]

couldn't bhAvanA be translated to 'feeling'?

Cologne Sanskrit Lexicon gives:
3 bhAvana 2 mf(%{I})n. (fr. Caus. ; for 1. see 2. %{bhA4} p. 750) causing to be , effecting , producing , displaying , manifesting MBh. Ka1v. BhP. ; promoting or effecting any one's (gen. or comp.) welfare MBh. R. &c. ; imagining , fancying , Asht2a1vS. ; teaching MBh. ; m. a creator , producer , efficient MBh. Ka1v. ; N. of S3iva (= %{dhyAtR}) MBh. ; of Vishn2u A. ; of the 22nd Kalpa (q.v.) ; (%{A}) f. and n. the act of producing or effecting Nir. Sa1h. BhP. ; forming in the mind , conception , apprehension , imagination , supposition , fancy , thought , meditation (%{bhAvanayA} ind , in thought , in imagination ; %{-nAm-bandh} , with loc. , to occupy one's imagination with , direct one's thoughts to) MBh. Ka1v. S3am2k. Veda7ntas. &c. ; (in logic) that cause of memory which arises from direct perception Tarkas. ; application of perfumes &c. (= %{adhivAsana}) L. ; (%{A}) f. demonstration , argument , ascertainment Ya1jn5. ; feeling of devotion , faith in (loc.) Pan5cat. ; reflection , contemplation (5 kinds with Buddhists MWB. 128) ; saturating any powder with fluid , steeping , infusion S3a1rn3gS. ; (in arithm.) finding by combination or composition ; (with Jainas) right conception or notion ; the moral of a fable HParis3. ; N. of an Upanishad ; a crow L. ; water L. ; n. furthering , promoting MBh. ; the fruit of Dillenia Speciosa L. ; (ifc.) nature , essence Ra1matUp.

Technical meaning of bhAvanA (bhAvana) in Tantras is a kinda fusion of meditation, feeling, intention, will, love, devotion and reflection. Exact equivalent in european languages is unknown to me.