Indispensability of Tamil?

[Venudhara]

This may rank as one of the silliest questions posed on this forum but I am curious to know whether not knowing tamil precludes an aspiring sadhaka from participation in the devotional activities of the Sri Vaishnava tradition. The more that I read about the Sri Vaishnava tradition, the more that I am growing to love it. I have been associated with the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition for the past 5 or 6 years now but my heart is really pulling me to Sri Ramanuja's lotus feet! Unfortunately, notwithstanding how much I read on the subject I still feel somewhat alienated from the tradition owing to my unfamiliarity with Tamil. From my basic readings thus far I know that the pasuraams of the Alwars are recited during bhagavat-aradhana and so this clearly prevents me from really participating completely in the life of a Sri Vaishnava. So as to compensate, I substitute the tamil prayers with sanskrit prayers that are otherwise also employed in Sri Vaishnava aradhana.

I pray that the Lord grants me birth in my next life in the home of a tamil-speaking family so that I can grow up to learn and recite the Divya-Prabhandam of the Alwar saints.

[philosoraptor]

Pranams,

Tamilians really love their Tamil. :-)

I have exactly the same problem. I suspect that more translations into English will gradually become available, but the writings of the Alvars will probably never feel quite right when read in English. In the mean time, there are still plenty of works translated into English, and while some of the free E-books online will require that you learn a few Tamil words, this can be done without too much effort and will be worth it.

I do know that the Sri Vaishnava temple I attend is mostly attended by Telugus, and I doubt many of them know Tamil. It doesn't stop them from participating.

shrImate rAmAnujAya namaH

[Viraja]

I am not reciting the divya prabandham of the Alwars, but a great scholar and devotee of name Sri Periyavaachaan Pillai has composed Ramayana sloka, entirely by taking 1 verse from each of the 4000 divya prabandha which I recite everyday. It is in Tamil language and a spiritual nectar that enables me to envision everything in Ramayana as it happened. If not for Divya Prabandha, you or anyone can try reciting this Tamil sloka from English versions. It gives the same benefit of both reciting 4000 divya prabandha each day along with reading the entire Ramayana.

[Viraja]

To those interested, the 'Divya Prabandha Pasura Ramayanam' by Sri Periyavachan Pillai can be found in this link: http://www.prapatti.com/slokas/author/tam-ppillai.html http://www.prapatti.com/slokas/author/e-ppillai.html

[jignyAsu]

Namaste Venudhara,

I am very happy to know your growing attachment to the Lotus Feet of Bhagavad Ramanuja. The great tradition has been spread from Kerala to Nepal and so language cannot be a barrier.

PravachanAs/Upanyasams/discourses have been rendered by great SriVaishnava vidwans in many languages like tamil, telugu, english etc. You should try searching for these in your language as a first step. In the end repeatedly remembering the guNAs and auspicious acts of Sriman Narayana, of Alwars and Acharyas alone matter, no matter in whichever language.

Also Divya Prabhandham texts are available in different languages and I have seen even preists reciting in various languages. Its a great source of joy as is and when we begin to understand the meaning and recognize tamil words bit by bit, the joy only increases. After all, Hindus recite so many sanskrit slokhas without completely understanding the grammer or meaning.

However, I see that you are only 22 and people keep learning different languages and so learning tamil will not be difficult at all. After all, the Divya Prabhandham is not just devotional hymns but Dravida Vedam and is thoroughly authorized in Bhagavatam. Ofcourse it is not necessary but a SriViashnavan spends the rest of his life experiencing these verses that is 100 times sweeter than all the itihAsa PuraNAs and so it is worth the effort.

My telugu SriVaishnava friends however tell me that they have so many pending telugu pravachanas and works that they don't have time for tamil :)

[philosoraptor]

I would be very cool with learning Tamil if the teacher taught it to me using Thiruppavai. :-)

On that note, does anyone now of a good translation of Divya Prabandham and, in particular, Thiruppavai, into English for the linguistically challenged such as myself? I wouldn't mind having it transliterated in Sanskrit script, but I would really prefer to get an English translation.

[jignyAsu]

I would be very cool with learning Tamil if the teacher taught it to me using Thiruppavai. :-)

Yes that would be very good indeed :). Now that you raised the topic, I would like to add in this thread that there is a vast difference b/w Divya Prabandam Tamil and spoken tamil. The latter is more or less crass and what is spoken in cinemas these days. Even though I grew up speaking tamil, I had to learn a whole new tamil for DP.



On that note, does anyone now of a good translation of Divya Prabandham and, in particular, Thiruppavai, into English for the linguistically challenged such as myself? I wouldn't mind having it transliterated in Sanskrit script, but I would really prefer to get an English translation.

Are you looking for English text or meaning?

[philosoraptor]

Yes that would be very good indeed :). Now that you raised the topic, I would like to add in this thread that there is a vast difference b/w Divya Prabandam Tamil and spoken tamil. The latter is more or less crass and what is spoken in cinemas these days. Even though I grew up speaking tamil, I had to learn a whole new tamil for DP.



Are you looking for English text or meaning?

Ideally, having the original text transliterated into either Sanskrit or English, followed by meaning in English. If not both, then at least meaning in English.

And just to clarify, it's the poetic Tamil of our ancient literary treasure I would like to learn, not the modern-day version. Tamil has undergone the same degradation as Telugu, so I know exactly what you mean.

[Sudas Paijavana]

I would like to add in this thread that there is a vast difference b/w Divya Prabandam Tamil and spoken tamil.

Namaste - JignyAsu,

I heard there is a huge difference between Brahmin Tamil (that of Shri Iyengars, Iyers, etc.) and Tamil (the Tamil dialect of non-Tamil-Brahmin groups)....is this correct? I also heard that the government in Tamil Nadu has secretly made it sure that Brahmin-Tamil dialect is frowned upon....is this true?

[Omkara]

I would be very cool with learning Tamil if the teacher taught it to me using Thiruppavai. :-)

On that note, does anyone now of a good translation of Divya Prabandham and, in particular, Thiruppavai, into English for the linguistically challenged such as myself? I wouldn't mind having it transliterated in Sanskrit script, but I would really prefer to get an English translation.
Contact Sri Srirama Bharati, Director, Sri Sadagopan Tirunarayana Swami Prabandha Pathasala, Medavakkam Post, Chennai 601 302. Tel 044-246 0527
You can buy a full translation there.

Also see these- http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/sri-vaishnava-forum/690133-english-books-divya-prabandham-(was-message-srivaishnava-satsangh-bahrain).html
http://archive.org/details/Thiruvaimozhi_english_commentry

[jignyAsu]

Ideally, having the original text transliterated into either Sanskrit or English, followed by meaning in English. If not both, then at least meaning in English.

Hmm....my suggestion would be to look for Pravachanas in the language you understand. If you know telugu, then you should find sufficient.

The thing with Divya Prabandhams is that there is superficial meaning and then there is a very indepth meaning. Superficially the translation may say that AndAL is calling Her gopi friends for a bath etc, while the indepth meaning is very profound.

Great acharyas like PVP say that what the different Alwars acheived with about 4000 verses summarizing Rig, Yajur, Sama and Atharva, AndAL acheived in just 30! The great Vedantin Bhagavad Ramanuja who knew in and out of all shAstrAs, was also named "ThiruppAvai Jeeyar" because His Mind was always immersed in ThiruppAvai. He had composed the Bhagavad Gita, Sri Bhashya etc meditating on these verses only.

Let me stress again that this Divya Prabandham is not just devotional hymn but dravida Vedam much like the Vedas and Valmiki Ramayana etc. It has the same status and even the order of words matter.

[jignyAsu]

I heard there is a huge difference between Brahmin Tamil (that of Shri Iyengars, Iyers, etc.) and Tamil (the Tamil dialect of non-Tamil-Brahmin groups)....is this correct?

Namaste. Yes there's a huge difference between the Tamil dialect. The brahmin (iyer or iyengar) dialect in general is soft and full of respect. Actually even words vary a lot - House is called "Veedu" in general but "Aathu" or "Aaham" by iyengars. What other calls Rasam we call "sAthamadu"; pongal- akkAravadisal. You may think that it is not a big deal but tamils are taken aback when they hear what they are not accustomed to. Also Iyengar tamil has a bit of sanskrit mix as well.

While Alvars have used pure and excellent Tamil, the Acharyas used Manipravalam tamil that is a mix of tamil and sanskrit. Only because we give the Divya prabandams an equal status to Vedas, and it is a pure excellent tamil, the tamil politicians have not been able to attack our tradition much.

This difference is fading thanks to the media. When a devotee of any caste embraces SriVaishnavam his language and mannerism undergoes a drastic changes and becomes more iyengarish.



I also heard that the government in Tamil Nadu has secretly made it sure that Brahmin-Tamil dialect is frowned upon....is this true?


No. They are openly making sure LOL. Jokes apart, the Tamil Brahmins are always mocked at by the media these days. In many movies, the hero looks and speaks very crass while the heroin has to be from a traditional Brahmin family. Because of their tolerance only the Brahmins have survived.

However the modern Brahmin boys and girls have started to feel that it is cool to not behave like a brahmin. Boys are proud of their drinking and eat meat inspite of them being Brahmin. Girls don't want their would be husband to be traditional and think that they are losers. That is the order of the day. Irrespective, Brahmins still retain a mimimum decent standard behavior in Tamil Nadu and can be easily recognized.

Apologize for the derail.

[Jaskaran Singh]

On that note, does anyone know of a good translation of Divya Prabandham and, in particular, Thiruppavai, into English for the linguistically challenged such as myself?

There's a huge collection of pAsura~NgaLai (with English translations at the bottom) on dravidaveda.org, such as this one (http://www.dravidaveda.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1999&Itemid=61) from thiruma~NgaiAzhvAr's periya thirumozhi.



I wouldn't mind having it transliterated in Sanskrit script, but I would really prefer to get an English translation.


For transliterations, you could check acharya.org (or download the PDF's from here (http://www.acharya.org/books/eBooks/DP4000/)).
Regarding the pronunciation, you could listen to recordings on Ramyagiri's Youtube channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/ramyagiri1/videos) and download them using keepvid (http://keepvid.com/) (although I'm not sure whether or not the latter is legal, :p).

[Banarasi]

I pray that the Lord grants me birth in my next life in the home of a tamil-speaking family so that I can grow up to learn and recite the Divya-Prabhandam of the Alwar saints

I hope you get to enjoy it in this life itself. However, in case you do not have a recording, I would suggest listening to begin with, as opposed to reading a transliteration (which may become tedious). I know that the Shri Venkatachalapati temple of Pittsburgh released DVDs of the entire recitation by scholars from India. There would be others...

You may be aware but there are quite a few Sanskrit compositions too by scholars in the tradition of Shri Ramanujacharya and they are available on you tube (eg. Raghuveera Gadhyam, Stotra ratnam etc..) and there is prapatti.com for texts in various languages.




Only because we give the Divya prabandams an equal status to Vedas, and it is a pure excellent tamil, the tamil politicians have not been able to attack our tradition much.
:iagree:

... Spot On. In my opinion, pure Tamil is also related to Sanskrit but the intersection is the least among the Indian languages. As remarked, the best examples of pure Tamil are deep, devotional works (both Shaiva and Vaishnava) and thus the politicians are hampered. In fact, consider some of the much touted, semi-secular Tamil works (by the politicians) - Manimekhalai, Silappadhikaram, Kundalakesi - all are easily recognized Sanskrit words! Thus, their effort is hampered at the start. The symbol of the leading party that opposes Sanskrit (in their words) is "Udayasuryan"... what more can we say!

Jai SitaRam

[Sri Vaishnava]

Our tradition gives importance to three languages - Tamil, Sanskrit and Manipravala. Swami Vedanta Desikan has even composed in Prakrit.

But I believe Sanskrit will be enough for beginners. The tamil pAsurams are mirrors of the sanskrit veda as per our tradition and if one understands the vishishtadvaitic interpretation of sanskrit vedanta, it will be enough for now.

[Viraja]

I heard recently that Sri Nammazhwar translated the entire sAma Veda into Tamil.

I also heard that even to this day, in all temples, those who recite sama veda in Tamil walk ahead in front of those who recite vedas in Sanskrit. (I presume this must in TN, India only :) ).

What do members think of the above?