Questions on Changing Brahman

[realdemigod]

Dear all,
I have had this doubt for long and decided to get some opinions. By the very definition of Brahman - it's continuously growing or expanding. Then how can it be the only ever permanent thing in the cosmos?

Does it mean this quality of expansion doesn't change? or

Which attribute of Brahman doesn't change? or

In case of Nirguna Brahman what is it that doesn't change?

All the ancient sages' including Patanjali's statement of a man's claim 'to experience the unchanging eternal bliss' is Brahman or something else?

If it's Brahman how can it not be changing ..contradicting its own definition of existence or lack of existence?

Hope to get some good answers. Request other schools not to digress the topic. Thanks

[realdemigod]

Namaste.

How can the definition of Brahman be 'ever growing or expanding' when Brahman is everything that is, was and ever will be?

Necromancer, Brahman is derived from the Sanskrit root brmh meaning to grow, to expand, to bellow, to roar (source: sanskrit.org). I'm basing my question on this.

I'm not really convinced with your explanations of 'no' to all my questions just on the fact why is Brahman derived from the root brmh if that is not its quality.

wundermonk - care to reply?

[jthomasnaz]

[QUOTE=realdemigod;106549]Dear all,
I have had this doubt for long and decided to get some opinions. By the very definition of Brahman - it's continuously growing or expanding. Then how can it be the only ever permanent thing in the cosmos?

Does it mean this quality of expansion doesn't change? or

Which attribute of Brahman doesn't change? or

In case of Nirguna Brahman what is it that doesn't change?

All the ancient sages' including Patanjali's statement of a man's claim 'to experience the unchanging eternal bliss' is Brahman or something else?

If it's Brahman how can it not be changing ..contradicting its own definition of existence or lack of existence?

Hope to get some good answers. Request other schools not to digress the topic. Thanks[/QUOT







Brahman creates by his thought. His creation expands, his creation is inside of him, thus we have terminology as pantheism. However, if we could look at brahman from the the outside of him (which would be impossible), we could see him as being unchanged.

[silence_speaks]

Brahman can also be taken as all inclusive.

ishavasya upanishad says "Remaining stationary, It outruns all other runners"

(verse 4).

This is not to mean that Brahman is changing, its just to mean that it accommodates all growth ! do you see that ? for example imagine a balloon that's growing! if i have a container that accommodates it, the container should be "Larger than the balloon" and at least grow faster than the balloon :)!otherwise some time later, the balloon outgrows or has no more space to grow. in that sense, Brahman is "Big" , Brhat, so it accommodates all growth ... which is figuratively states as that which outgrows all growth.

[brahman]

Dear all,


I have had this doubt for long and decided to get some opinions. By the very definition of Brahman - it's continuously growing or expanding.

Then how can it be the only ever permanent thing in the cosmos?



Hope to get some good answers. Request other schools not to digress the topic. Thanks


Dear realdemigod,

Brahman is not an entity existing in the cosmos.

Brahman, the word literally means, “that which is on the constant process of growth”,

the term also denotes “that which is all inclusive.”


Having no form of its own it assumes the form of everything. It is the one abstract reality that manifest as all the concrete forms.

Faith and belief in the scriptures is the only ideological standpoint that is relevant in this situation.

If it be argued that it is not so, and the world also has existence, then such a standpoint would be logically wrong.

If one substance (Brahman) alone has being, then how can another (the Cosmos) also have being?

The scientific fact underlying this argument is that two entities cannot occupy the same space at the same time. Love:)

[Mana]

om gurave namaḥ


Namaste All,

This discussion brings me to thought of topology ...

Might we consider Brahman existing as the same entity both inside and outside of time; a bridge between space both with and without existence. In our conception of universe; a pure function of conciousness, time must be perceived from a vantage point. As time manifests, the self realises self by means of memory, itself a subsidiary effect of time.
Thus in the manifold nature of this topological space, between the surface and that of it's higher dimensions; could this boundary be conciousness as parabrahman, emanating from the junction or boundary between nirguṇa brahman & saguna brahman. Some of these words are quite new to me and I am still getting a feel for their usage; please don't hesitate to correct me if you feel that I am wrong or should consider my application.


http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3791/9565869821_374086fc17_n.jpg

I like to use images and mathematical models to assist my limited mind in its thought on such subjects, so as to visualise more clearly that which can not be seen. How might we perceive the ever changing Brahman in this image; you may well ask? Well, imagine the point at which 3 surfaces meet upon this Klein bottle, imagine that it is a fractal boundary; see, easy ...

All great food for thought; thank you for the wonderful discussion, please do correct me in my understanding If you feel that I have misinterpreted somthing in regards to a school of thought, I am still very much learning the ropes. :)


Kind regards.

[silence_speaks]

Dear Mana,
:) In topology that Klein Bottle is a Projective Plane :)
There is much simpler representation for it :)


http://web.ornl.gov/sci/ortep/topology/topo5.gif


I mean, its much simpler :) Much more Simpler ...


Love!
Silence

[Mana]

Namaste silence speaks,

Yes I concur; but if we examine in the context of Brahman and expansion or movement; it has no countenance, in so much as there is is nothing in it.
Perhaps we could consider the mobius strip as being dimensionality more akin to sabda brahman, as bindu splits, prior to any further expansion.
Well, to my mind ... :)

Kind regards.

[silence_speaks]

Dear Mana ,
:) Brahman is Awareness.
Thats it.
Awareness has another name Brahman.

As even in your dream, you see a whole world ... where is the world ? in your mind and where is the mind ? Its just an appearance or a ripple in Awareness.
So too, this world is just a ripple in the awareness ... an apparent ripple that too.

Love!
Silence

[Mana]

Namaste silence speaks,

Perhaps you could now expand, into the context of how eternal growth is derived from brahman if brahman is unchanging?

Kind regards.

[silence_speaks]

Just as all the growth of snake is accommodated by the rope on which it is imagined about :)

Please also see my answer before this.
Love!
Silence

[silence_speaks]

And even as the entire dream world is expanding in your Awareness .. and so awareness is that which grows faster than anything in your dream...
Just remain with this ... and see.

[Mana]

Namaste silence speaks,


Just as all the growth of snake is accommodated by the rope on which it is imagined about :)


I will be honest with you here, I find this analogy a little nonsensical; please forgive me for I do not understanding your analogy. Perhaps our experience differs?


And even as the entire dream world is expanding in your Awareness .. and so awareness is that which grows faster than anything in your dream...
Just remain with this ... and see.

I tend to differ in belief than that of yours expressed here, as I have understood it; a difference of perspective, the thread requests that I avoid diverging to differing philosophy's, I shall not introduce them here; but thank you none the less for expressing your perspective.

I find that I refer regularly to the word fractal when expressing many of these wonderful philosophies; it is a relatively new word, coined in the 80's or early 90's. Perhaps realdemigod could find this model to be useful, when approaching the question originally posted?


Dear all,
I have had this doubt for long and decided to get some opinions. By the very definition of Brahman - it's continuously growing or expanding. Then how can it be the only ever permanent thing in the cosmos?

When I read you here:


And even as the entire dream world is expanding in your Awareness .. and so awareness is that which grows faster than anything in your dream...
Just remain with this ... and see.

I do not find this postulate to be satisfactory or in alignment with my understanding; my personal experience leads me to a different line of thought.

Thank you for expressing your thoughts so vigorously, and divulging of your understanding.

:)

Kind regards.

[silence_speaks]

Dear Mana,
:) Thank you !
What can I say ? All you said is this is non-sense for you and that this is not clear to you :)! Neither told your perspective nor asked mine ...

So ..:)

Love!
Silence

[Mana]

namaste silence speaks,

You are most welcome, quite right, you may be inferring to a script or doctrine of which I am unaware, yet in the context of this thread and in regards to what you could say ...

Please explain from your understanding, the expansion, movement or flow of infinite awareness.

To my mind, we must first meditate on the expansion into, and thus the quantity of dimensions. In the fractal model this is the number of iterations, interestingly the fractal model begins with a circle, or rather a dot.

The eloquence of the Klein bottle is that it exists in 4 dimensions yet only has one surface ... where as the mobius strip is , 'nearly' only two dimensional, but this is an illusion as it does have square edges. Nit picking but there is a difference in what is real and exists, and what is theory or illusory, arguably delusion.

The fractal model is in my opinion the most eloquent, as they can be felt to exist in nature, and indeed are proving to manifest most everywhere. As a meditative exercise, I like to think of the self as a pixel on the computer screen. Showing a finite part of something which is infinite, with an infinite amount of self-similar, repeating, expanding forms; should we zoom in to it. The pixel does not contain the whole set, as it has emerged from it, but it does contain reflections of the whole set.

This expansion takes place within the framework of the 25 tattva; 36 in other schools of thought, (into which we are not supposed to be headed in this thread) thus my avoidance of awareness thinness and I-ness.
The fractal, uses two axis and their junction with the complex plain, we need only look at a flower to see the staggering beauty that can manifest when these extra dimensions are expanded to 25 or more.

I will repeat that the interesting infinity, on the Klein bottle, is most expansive at the point where three different surfaces join; notice there is also a duality present. Liquid no liquid, infinite space which penetrates the finite space

Were you aware of this?

Wow, I'm going to have to learn some maths, text can be so cumbersome ...

Thank you for taking the time to read my rambles ...


Kind regards.

[silence_speaks]

Dear Mana,
:) Expansion is always w.r.t time.
And Brahman is the "Adhishtana" --- it is what supports time.
Brahman precedes time.
So expansion and movement here must be used figuratively.

You can read my other posts to understand this better. I am caught up with some work now, will respond to this a little later.

Love!
Silence

[Lokavidu]

Necromancer, Brahman is derived from the Sanskrit root brmh meaning to grow, to expand, to bellow, to roar (source: sanskrit.org). I'm basing my question on this.

I'm not really convinced with your explanations of 'no' to all my questions just on the fact why is Brahman derived from the root brmh if that is not its quality.

wundermonk - care to reply?


here is my reason why the word 'Brahman' which its intrinsic nature limitless come from the sanskrit root bṛh meaning to expand, to grow.

example: we know from math, the series of odd number is infinite or limitless. when I follow the series, it keep growing, getting bigger-bigger and bigger..when I am sure that I find the biggest odd number, I am wrong, still there is one odd number bigger than I thought before..If I don't see the number is growing then odd number series is not limitless. If I can see the end of the growing, then it is limited.

so one of the closest way to say something that is limitless, is using the word that means keep growing, getting bigger, that is brahman.

Brahman's intrinsic nature is existence-consciousness-limitlessness...they are not 3 separate nature.
Existence can not have limitation. If existence has limit, then you will ask, what is that exist beyond the limit? and someone will try to answer, "non-existence is exist". See? it is a contradiction to say non existence is exist.

existence can only be established by consciousness. no conscious being can know the existence of something. only consciousness that is exist.
so brahman is limitless existence and limitless consciousness.

all thing in the universe, has the ultimate substance which is existence-consciousness-limitlessness. We can not divide the atom or anything and expect the result beyond existence. there is only existence.

even the definition and word brahman can not really give us the exact meaning.
we can correctly definite something, only if we can know the attribute of that thing that make it difference from other thing. example: the attribute of apel is different from orange. Therefore definition is requiring someone to point the attribute of something that will be defined.

Brahman can not have attribute because it is limitless so it can not be defined precisely, that is the limitation of the language.
and being limitless, what is left to be define?
Brahman is also not an object that can be really defined. Brahman is not an object. When I say, " 'This' is brahman!". the implication is: 'that' thing is not brahman. brahman is limitless, 'this' and 'that' are brahman only

[smaranam]

Namaste

That dictionary meaning is just expressing the magnanimous nature of Bramhan - magnanimosity and grandiosity in ALL respects and aspects.

Larger than the largest, smaller than the smallest,
lighter than the lightest, heavier than the heaviest,
subtler than the subtlest,
more profound than the most profound
more charming than the most charming
more blissfull than the most blissful...

There is always more to it. Bramhan is like the horizon.
------

Many nice answers here already.
"growth" is relative, just as "time" is.
In the Absolute sense there is no time really, but in our relative world it appears to move.
Similarly, growth is an appearance and is relative.

A large balloon fits in a box. I get a larger ballon, oh that one also fits. Did the box grow? I did not
know its capacity to begin with. Its like the horizon.
-------

The best thing is to study very carefully the Bhagavad Gita Chapter 13 shloka 12 to 17, and 8.3 for defN of Bramhan straight from Bramhan (Shri KRshNa).

- knowable, to be known, highest and beginningless, giver of highest bliss
- having eyes, hands, legs, heads, mouths everywhere because it contains the entire manifestation
- knows all sense-objects despite having no senses,
- unattached yet support and nourisher of all
- untouched by modes of material nature (nirguNa), yet experiences (tastes, consumes) the effects of
these modes (guNa-bhoktA)
- inside and outside all beings, moving and stationary (all-pervading)
- is those very beings yet extemely subtle hence undetectable
- extremely near (being one's AtmA) yet very far (unreachable owing to either ignorance or lack of faith)
- indivisible whole like the sky, yet appears divided like sky in pots (avibhaktam cha bhUteshu
vibhaktamiva cha sthitam)
- maintains all beings as VishNu, creates as BramhA and annhilates as Mahesh
- flame of all flames (purest, innermost tattva - principle), beyond mAyA
- knowledge itself by nature, to be known, and living in the hearts of all beings
- imperishable, infallible, flawless, highest (akshara bramhan param - BG 8.3)


mayi [cha] ananya yogena bhaktiravyabhichAriNi...