PDA

View Full Version : Jiva - conditioned or liberated eternally?



Govindbhai
05 August 2013, 05:12 AM
Hare Krsna!
PAMHO to all Vaishnavas ,
All glories to all devotees of the Supreme Lord, and sincere seekers of Truth & Righteousness.

In his Purport to B.G. Ch.18, v.78 (final verse), A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami 'Prabhupada' has stated:

"The living entities are manifested of His energy and are divided into two classes, eternally conditioned and eternally liberated."

I am failing to understand how a conditioned jiva can become liberated, if both states are eternal.

If the state of being conditioned is eternal, then liberation is impossible, because liberation would bring to an end the state of being conditioned, and would also give a beginning to the state of liberation, meaning that it is not eternal.

Eternal means:

e·ter·nal
adj.
1. Being without beginning or end; existing outside of time. See Synonyms at infinite.
2. Continuing without interruption; perpetual.
3. Forever true or changeless: e.g. 'eternal truths'

Has anyone got anything to say about this?

Haribol.

smaranam
07 August 2013, 02:16 AM
Hare KRshNa,
PAMHO

Here, eternal is the translation of nitya.

eternally conditioned = nitya baddha = HAS BEEN / WAS always conditioned (always can also mean as far as time can tell for all practical purposes). This does not say the baddha jiva will not be liberated IN FUTURE. Although that violates the dicitionary meaning (beginning AND end), the end is not considered in this context for nitya (forever conditioned as of today - was NEVER liberated).

eternally liberated = nitya siddha = HAS always been in the liberated state, and WAS NEVER CONDITIONED EVER in the past, plus, it implies they will never fall down (as in: get deluded) i.e. they will not "become conditioned." - although there have been exceptions to this (ShridAma - a curse not a true fall-down).
e.g. ashTa sakhis, GaruDa, prAN sakhAs of Shri KRshNa (the inner circle) are nitya siddha.

Some gopis were elevated to that state - some were previous deva kanyA (daughters of Demigods), some were Rshis of DanDakArNya (danDaka forest) who wanted to associate with Sri RAm. Some other pArshads of the Supreme Lord may be bhakta who worshipped KRshNa in whichever ras. These are examples of those who were not necessarily nitya siddha (they were not always siddha, they were baddha at some point).

_/\_

Haribol
om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

smaranam
07 August 2013, 11:18 AM
Another explanation for nitya-baddha is:

These jivas have been baddha for a very very very long time. So there is room for them being in either a neutrally innocent non-devotional state (Bramhajyoti) or in VaikunTha before this large amount of time that "feels like forever" - implying - "nitya for all practical purposes"


Hare KRshNa

Mana
07 August 2013, 12:44 PM
om gurave namaḥ



Eternal means:

e·ter·nal
adj.
1. Being without beginning or end; existing outside of time. See Synonyms at infinite.
2. Continuing without interruption; perpetual.
3. Forever true or changeless: e.g. 'eternal truths'

Has anyone got anything to say about this?

Haribol.

Namaste Govindbhai,

This definition of infinity is extremely basic; for a modern yet very relevant perspective, you might like to consider investigating some mathematics; limits and group theory in particular.

Infinities are curious animals, they come in many shapes and sizes; If we imagine for example; the number set one to infinity. We are in agreement that this is infinity; now, imagine that between each number there is a line of decimal numbers reaching into infinity perpendicular to our first line. We now have an infinity which is infinity larger than the first; yet both are infinite.

I like to consolidate this notion by the additional thought of a speed, one infinity tends towards infinity much faster than the other ...

Much like one the thought that one soul might tend towards God much faster than another; infinitely faster in some cases!

Interestingly, the mathematics implied by this model is a very useful and highly successful tool.

Kind regards.

jignyAsu
07 August 2013, 01:08 PM
Pranam.

A related topic has also been discussed here:

http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=11407

Basically it boils down to telling that the limited mind is incapable of understanding infinity of soul, God or Prakriti.

philosoraptor
07 August 2013, 02:23 PM
I honestly don't know why Sri Prabhupada used the phrase "eternally conditioned" in this context. I assume he meant "anadi" which would literally mean "without beginning" and more closely resembles the point he is making.

brahma jijnasa
08 August 2013, 02:40 AM
Namaste


In his Purport to B.G. Ch.18, v.78 (final verse), A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami 'Prabhupada' has stated:

"The living entities are manifested of His energy and are divided into two classes, eternally conditioned and eternally liberated."

I am failing to understand how a conditioned jiva can become liberated, if both states are eternal.

If the state of being conditioned is eternal, then liberation is impossible, because liberation would bring to an end the state of being conditioned, and would also give a beginning to the state of liberation, meaning that it is not eternal.

Eternal means:

e·ter·nal
adj.
1. Being without beginning or end; existing outside of time. See Synonyms at infinite.
2. Continuing without interruption; perpetual.
3. Forever true or changeless: e.g. 'eternal truths'

Has anyone got anything to say about this?


Srila Prabhupada is a representative of Gaudiya vaishnava tradition. Terms such as "eternally conditioned" etc, have a specific meaning in the Gaudiya vaishnava philosophy. To properly understand these concepts or terms, you have to figure them out as part of this philosophy. Meaning from the dictionary will not help you much in that.

As far as I can tell, "eternally conditioned" means that conditioned soul in this material world has been suffering in material bondage since time immemorial. Living entity being called "eternally conditioned" has been executing fruitive activities (karma) since time immemorial. Thus his conditioned life may be called "beginningless" or even "eternally conditioned".
In Gaudiya vaishnava philosophy "beginningless" or "eternally conditioned" has nothing to do with meaning from the dictionary. It simply means "since time immemorial" or "since a very long time ago". This, however, does not mean literally "beginningless" because conditioned life of the soul has a beginning in the past.
We had a lengthy discussion about this, see here: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?p=103028#post103028


Another explanation for nitya-baddha is:

These jivas have been baddha for a very very very long time. So there is room for them being in either a neutrally innocent non-devotional state (Bramhajyoti) or in VaikunTha before this large amount of time that "feels like forever" - implying - "nitya for all practical purposes"

According to Gaudiya vaishnava philosophy they were not in brahmajyoti but together with The Lord in Vaikuntha.
I know that you read my posts there in the thread Start of the 'Atma'/Soul. :)

regards