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silence_speaks
15 August 2013, 10:04 AM
Friends,
:) I have been discussing in various forums on this topic and may be I can summarize something useful for everyone here.

Lets take a case study based approach and see how we can really improve meditation. No! I am not trying to be a salesman. But may be I can share a little understanding "Free" [of course nothing is free... one has to apply oneself and read and digest this, isn't it ?].

Case Study 1:

A relative of mine, once told me "My son does not have any concentration on his studies. I think meditation can help him". This is very common. And many swami ji's would say "yes yes, take him through a meditation session , its just Rs 1500 only !" :)

When I went to her home I saw this guy watching a cricket match ... he was watching it with so much concentration that even if you yell he would not even pay attention! Now is that not concentration ?

Now friends ... please understand ... mind is like this. Its designed to be like this. Where there is interest, there is concentration. Automatic. One needs no practice for it. And if something does not interest you ... however hard you may try, concentrating would be very difficult. This is how the mind is designed. So when my concentration is lacking , what does it mean ? I do not like it ! Or my interest is elsewhere. So what do I correct first ? The interest levels or the practice ?

:) That's why I often say "Long before sitting for meditation, become meditative"! This is common experience ... some times , after reading a few pages of gospel of Ramakrishna or Ramana or may be after studying some spiritual text ... mind behaves exceptionally! You just sit down for meditation and its as if you can sit like that for any long ! That's simply because one is meditative... the interest levels are high, thanks to the readings. So long before I can meditate, I have to become meditative.

Ok, so is this the suggestion: "Before sitting for meditation study a book of Ramakrishna/Ramana etc" ?
:) No! Because its temporary suggestion. A temporary high. A transient phase ... wont help.

So what can be done ?

:) The purpose of this thread is exactly this. I will continue this thread ... slowly and based upon reader involvement. Those interested may benefit.

Love!
Silence

silence_speaks
16 August 2013, 07:12 AM
so here we are...
where there is interest there is automatic concentration.
clear.

there is another point also.
suppose there is no interest.
why is there distraction ?
lets see this ..
whats distraction ? i am here, but i want to be elsewhere.
do we see that?
i am here, but want to be elsewhere ... that's distraction.
so if mind is distracted, it means "its here, but wants to be elsewhere"


I will break here to allow this point to be taken :)

Love!
Silence

Ajeet
16 August 2013, 12:04 PM
I do agree. I am also one such person who has REALIZED it in my own life. Many a time mind is not doing bad however its not doing what is is supposed as well. Means interest/inclination towards a particular subject will love to think about that & however may try to distract it,it effortlessly goes back to the same suject.

Her the Subject & the intention is very important. As long as the intention & the subject is for welfare of self & the others in the society corresponding to the path shown by AAGAMA ? NIGAMA, its ok. However if the same is not corrsponding to Aagama/ Nigama marga, then we need to show the right Sugject & Right intention by practicing Meditation.

Meditation is required more when we are spiritually advancing though slowly.

Some time we have to train the mind by proving correct nutrients like surrendering the Self to the almighty( if one is fortunate enough to have a Sadguru who teaches you & takes you to the realization of the Almighty) & then everything starts rolling the way it should.

Everymoment of life gets the Bliss & the same world looks different.......

I have seen it.... Jai Shri Maa

yajvan
16 August 2013, 07:22 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté


so whats distraction ? i am here, but i want to be elsewhere.
do we see that?
i am here, but want to be elsewhere ... that's distraction.
so if mind is distracted, it means "its here, but wants to be elsewhere"

I will break here to allow this point to be taken :)

Love!
Silence

I see it slightly differently; not opposed, just from a different vantage point.
The mind goes from thought-to-thought no different then a bee glides from flower to flower. It ~seems~ the bee's activity is random, but with further observation it is quite purposeful.
The mind goes from thought to thought or from idea to idea, or from one thing to another i.e.a smell, sight, touch from the wind on the skin. The mind alights onto these things. It even alights onto a distraction. It, like the bee, is looking for nectar, for something to experience, to have some taste for more. Doesn't matter what that 'more' is , as long as it is another experience for 'more' from the last experience , as the last experience subsided. Like that , the mind goes here and there.

So, one needs to comprehend this and apply the proper upāya¹ so one may advance in one's practice.

Yet I can inform the reader this - the mind does not respond favorably ( in kali yuga) to high levels of control. It is like a child that does not take discipline well. One needs to coax the child with the proper inspiration and tools ( candy, food, toys). What then is the proper inspiration for the mind ? This comes from the teacher to evaluate what level the student is at for proper instruction. Three levels are usually considered ; within these 3 levels¹ there are no less then 112 dhāraṇa-s¹ ( 1+1+2 = 4 = a mokṣa house in jyotish).

iti śivaṁ

words

upāya - that by which one reaches one's aim
dhāraṇa -techniques; holding , bearing , keeping (in remembrance) , retention , preserving , protecting , maintaining , possessing
3 levels - please see this HDF post:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=18339&postcount=4

Necromancer
16 August 2013, 11:54 PM
Namaste.

A lot of problems in meditation arise when the sadhak tries to consciously 'control' their thoughts.

They are taught that thoughts are bad, or the wanderings of the mind should be 'tamed' somehow.

This leads to many situations where it's like "there's no way I can meditate, because my mind races too much" or "I just cannot concentrate enough to meditate".

Fact is, that meditation and concentration are two different things.

I was taught the 'right way' to meditate, in that one should just become an observer of their thoughts...letting them arise, then fade away...just watching them and not getting too involved or 'hung up' on a single thought.

The mind is like an annoying toddler, always wanting attention...always pestering you to act. You cannot just 'ignore' it or hope that it will go away.

Of course there are going to be distractions in the initial stages, but the 'mantra' of meditation is always 'are you quite done yet? let's move on, shall we?'

That applies to anything from the mind wanting to be elsewhere, to 'experiences' and 'heightened states of consciousness' in meditation.

Nothing is real or important, until you reach the stage whereby 'are you quite done yet? let's move on, shall we?' no longer applies.

It's like a form of lucid dreaming, but you are awake the entire time.

After a while of letting your thoughts all go with peace and love, trying not to dwell on a single thought, they start to slow down automatically.

Focusing your awareness on your breath and bringing your attention back to your breathing when thoughts start to overwhelm you, that's the key.

You can even imagine your breath as a certain colour...like orange or green...one colour going in and another colour going out.

Yes, you are still 'thinking' but at least your thoughts won't be random after that.

Aum Namah Shivaya

silence_speaks
17 August 2013, 02:24 AM
Dear Friends,
:) Thank you for the inputs. We will discuss all these points in detail a little later today. :). I really appreciate your participation in this thread.

Love!
Silence

smaranam
17 August 2013, 04:25 AM
praNAm

Nice thread. I collected these keywords from each of you above:

interest, distraction, nectar, thoughts, surrender

interest = IN KRshNa
distraction = TOWARDS KRshNa
nectar = ABOUT KRshNa
next nectar = FOR KRshNa
thoughts = OF KRshNa
surrender = TO KRshNa
samadhi = IN KRshNa

I am either IN samAdhi or NOT. So there are only TWO possible states.

Sometimes the Self is ONE without knowing it, so it is as if there is NONE, but sometimes the Self is TWO. Who can stop the Self from being TWO? We bypass the seer-seen-sought exercises and just live with each other.

Who can convince the Self they are in mAyA just because they are TWO?
Who can stop the Self from adoring the Beloved?
Who can detain the Self from Govardhan ParikramA, be it in bhUlok VRndAvan, Goloka VRndAvan or mAnas-VRndAvan?
Who can deny the Self the joy of offering a zillion praNAms to the entire bhakta vRndA, and to the entire
creation?
Who can tell the Self dancing and singing in kirtan is mAyA?

QUESTION: Can you? If yes, then who are you [in tattva] ?
---------

So what am I doing on HDF? I am IN samAdhi. The wierdest threads on HDF can be KRshNa these days. Scary. Yes, HDF is a once-a-day distraction, certainly - that is a very high frequency. A dangerous one, comes along with heavy dependance on material resources such as electricity, electronic equipment and software, but more significantly, possible addiction to e-satsang. Well, then this is just a crude material
manifestation of the Gopis stealing out of the house to meet Shri KRshNa, since He is HDF too!
HDF by itself is a sahasramUrti sahasrAksha sahasrapAda sahasra-thread NArAyaNa. Thanks Satay.

So what is NON-samAdhi? When the ego called KAliyA shows His poisonous hoods.
What do you do then? Ask KRshNa to dance on the hoods and make KAliyA go away and never be seen in the Yamuna.

Please ignore if that was too boring or too much out of line.

_/\_

silence_speaks
17 August 2013, 06:47 AM
I do agree. I am also one such person who has REALIZED it in my own life. Many a time mind is not doing bad however its not doing what is is supposed as well. Means interest/inclination towards a particular subject will love to think about that & however may try to distract it,it effortlessly goes back to the same suject.


Dear Ajeet,
:)
Very true.
And why does the mind get distracted ? Only because of the kind of ideas we have fed it with.

We have fed it with some ideas ... we have said , earlier ... for a long time ... "Indulgence in the world is a means to find happiness" ... so its trying.


We can observe that whenever the mind moves ... it moves either towards a raga or away from a dvesha! So its our own raga-dveshas which we have cultivated in our subconscious over a period of time ... that dictate our mind's movement.


Love!
Silence

silence_speaks
17 August 2013, 06:55 AM
Dear Yajvan,
:) Namasthe!


hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

I see it slightly differently; not opposed, just from a different vantage point.

The mind goes from thought-to-thought no different then a bee glides from flower to flower. It ~seems~ the bee's activity is random, but with further observation it is quite purposeful.
The mind goes from thought to thought or from idea to idea, or from one thing to another i.e.a smell, sight, touch from the wind on the skin. The mind alights onto these things. It even alights onto a distraction. It, like the bee, is looking for nectar, for something to experience, to have some taste for more. Doesn't matter what that 'more' is , as long as it is another experience for 'more' from the last experience , as the last experience subsided. Like that , the mind goes here and there.




:) So that wanting another is a distraction. So this far, its exactly in line with the post.

The following point on Upaayas, is something I am not completely in agreement. I know its a very commonly accepted view point, but I would prefer to defer and please be a little open minded when I say this. I will explain my perspective in the next few posts.

Finally: yajvan, a small request. Can you please let me know the source of this "Upaayas thread" that you posted. I have been searching for this material, just heard it from someone. Is it from one of the Tantras ?




So, one needs to comprehend this and apply the proper upāya¹ so one may advance in one's practice.

Yet I can inform the reader this - the mind does not respond favorably ( in kali yuga) to high levels of control. It is like a child that does not take discipline well. One needs to coax the child with the proper inspiration and tools ( candy, food, toys). What then is the proper inspiration for the mind ? This comes from the teacher to evaluate what level the student is at for proper instruction. Three levels are usually considered ; within these 3 levels¹ there are no less then 112 dhāraṇa-s¹ ( 1+1+2 = 4 = a mokṣa house in jyotish).

iti śivaṁ

words
upāya - that by which one reaches one's aim
dhāraṇa -techniques; holding , bearing , keeping (in remembrance) , retention , preserving , protecting , maintaining , possessing
3 levels - please see this HDF post:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=18339&postcount=4


Love!
Silence

silence_speaks
17 August 2013, 07:03 AM
Dear Necromancer,
:) Namasthe!


Namaste.

A lot of problems in meditation arise when the sadhak tries to consciously 'control' their thoughts.

They are taught that thoughts are bad, or the wanderings of the mind should be 'tamed' somehow.

This leads to many situations where it's like "there's no way I can meditate, because my mind races too much" or "I just cannot concentrate enough to meditate".

Fact is, that meditation and concentration are two different things.



Absolutely correct! I like the underlined statement particularly. It shows objectivity.





I was taught the 'right way' to meditate, in that one should just become an observer of their thoughts...letting them arise, then fade away...just watching them and not getting too involved or 'hung up' on a single thought.

......

After a while of letting your thoughts all go with peace and love, trying not to dwell on a single thought, they start to slow down automatically.

Focusing your awareness on your breath and bringing your attention back to your breathing when thoughts start to overwhelm you, that's the key.





:) I agree with this only partially. This is another popular notion. I like it and myself do it some times. Please see my next post to understand why I am not in total agreement with this. This is not to dismiss the sadhana... its beautiful method.


Love!
Silence

silence_speaks
17 August 2013, 07:22 AM
Dear Friends,
:) Here is something we have all agreed:

" There is Distraction. Distraction is "Mind is here", and "It wants to be elsewhere" ... I have made it the most generic definition and simplified it. "

And then, the usual approach to tackle this is: Lets therefore try a "Sadhana", a "Method". There are various kinds of Sadhana's , Meditation "Techniques". Japa , Observing Thoughts, Observing breath etc. These are beautiful methods. I am not denying the methods. All I am saying is this approach has a flaw.

I request you to see what I say now with an open mind. All Sadhanas operate with the idea: Mind is distracted, so whenever it "Goes There", "I bring it back Here".

Please see this ... Its at once obvious for Japa / Observing Breath. Lets include the other cases :

Case Study 2: Living in the Present Moment

Suppose I am living in the present moment. What is the "Effort here" ? [Hey I am not suggesting effortlessness :) as many modern day gurus do ... neither am i advocating that sadhana is not required. Sadhana is a must. We will talk a little later. ] .So whats the effort here ?
The mind is getting involved in the "Thought world", I "Drag it to the present moment". Now it gets involved, now again i drag it to the present moment. I can use observing breath as an aid.
So effort is : Its "getting into thought world" , in other words: getting "Distracted", we bring it back.
So Living in present moment is also "Whenever mind gets distracted, bring it back". Same type of sadhana.

Case 3: Observing Thoughts:

Same case again. Whenever we become "involved in the thought world", bring it back to the witness state.

These are all the sadhanas we have. They are all good ... and they operate with the law:
"Whenever the mind goes away, bring it back" ... "Whenever there is distraction, bring back the mind".

So the mind , as our friends observed :



"The mind is like an annoying toddler" .... Necromancer
"Yet I can inform the reader this - the mind does not respond favorably ( in kali yuga) to high levels of control" ...Yajvan


This situation is a consequence of the approach in these sadhanas :namely, "Whenever the mind goes out, bring it back."

My Fundamental Question ... which we will come back to ... is
"When mind goes out, we bring back, it goes out again, we bring it back again and so on ... when this is what we are doing ...
Do you correct the reason why this mind is going out ?
or keep bringing it back whenever it goes out ?

Which is more important ? Correct the reason mind is going out, so that when i put it here, it remains here ? Or keep bringing it back whenever it goes out. Of course we need all these sadhanas. But don't you see [if you are still with an open mind] which is more important ? If I correct the reason why its going out... i bring it back and it shoud "BE"... Please ponder. "


I will continue ... For now I just want you to spend some time with what I said, giving me the benefit of doubt :)... By giving me the benefit of doubt i mean, you should be ready to "See" what I am saying and not "Dismiss" it beforehand with the ideas like: I already know what he is saying / He cannot say anything new / He is immature etc ... these conclusions if you can avoid and just see what I am saying ... and inquire along my lines ... perhaps we can come up with something interesting.

silence_speaks
17 August 2013, 07:27 AM
praNAm

Nice thread. I collected these keywords from each of you above:

interest, distraction, nectar, thoughts, surrender

interest = IN KRshNa
distraction = TOWARDS KRshNa
nectar = ABOUT KRshNa
next nectar = FOR KRshNa
thoughts = OF KRshNa
surrender = TO KRshNa
samadhi = IN KRshNa

I am either IN samAdhi or NOT. So there are only TWO possible states.

Sometimes the Self is ONE without knowing it, so it is as if there is NONE, but sometimes the Self is TWO. Who can stop the Self from being TWO? We bypass the seer-seen-sought exercises and just live with each other.

Who can convince the Self they are in mAyA just because they are TWO?
Who can stop the Self from adoring the Beloved?
Who can detain the Self from Govardhan ParikramA, be it in bhUlok VRndAvan, Goloka VRndAvan or mAnas-VRndAvan?
Who can deny the Self the joy of offering a zillion praNAms to the entire bhakta vRndA, and to the entire
creation?
Who can tell the Self dancing and singing in kirtan is mAyA?

QUESTION: Can you? If yes, then who are you ?
---------

So what am I doing on HDF? I am IN samAdhi. The wierdest threads on HDF can be KRshNa these days. Scary. Yes, HDF is a once-a-day distraction, certainly - that is a very high frequency. A dangerous one, comes along with heavy dependance on material resources such as electricity, electronic equipment and software, but more significantly, possible addiction to e-satsang. Well, then this is just a crude material
manifestation of the Gopis stealing out of the house to meet Shri KRshNa, since He is HDF too!
HDF by itself is a sahasramUrti sahasrAksha sahasrapAda sahasra-thread NArAyaNa. Thanks Satay.

So what is NON-samAdhi? When the ego called KAliyA shows His poisonous hoods.
What do you do then? Ask KRshNa to dance on the hoods and make KAliyA go away and never be seen in the Yamuna.

Please ignore if that was too boring or too much out of line.

_/\_

Dear smaranam,
:) Namasthe _/\_! While I chose to discuss your point at the last.
What ever I said above applies 100% to your point as well.
Your sadhana is like "Whenever Ego raises, you involve Sri Krishna and Sri Krishna dances on the hoods of ego to subdue it"
But once thats done, ego raises agian...
so this goes on ...

you do it now, it raises again ... so this process goes on ... So now my above answer applies to your point as well.
And I know you seem to come from a "Bhakti" perspective. So here is my question to you:

[I]How do you ensure that your mind is merged in Sri Krishna and does not come out again at all ?

Is there such a possibility ? Please question. I'll intentionally keep discussions with you on a slightly parallel track.

Love!
Silence

Necromancer
17 August 2013, 08:55 AM
Namaste.

Thank you for your enlightening response.

In this thread, you have received feedback from three different schools of thought.

There is Yajvan, a Sanskrit Scholar, there is Smaranam, a Hare Krishna devotee and there is myself, a Hatha Yoga/Meditation teacher.

What is the point of bringing the mind 'back from somewhere'? to 'another place of somewhere?'

It all has to do with focus or 'one-pointedness' of mind and thought.

I shall quote the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali...better yet, I shall just post this link:
http://www.swamij.com/yoga-sutras-13032.htm

That says it all much better than I could.

Granted, my methods are basically 'beginner level meditation' instructions, but that's the way I learned it.

Even though concentration isn't the same as meditation, one can lead to the other.

The first practice I ever learned was Trataka. This helped to 'prime' me and pave the way for meditation.

From there, I went on to study Patanjali and stuck with that method ever since.

Aum Namah Shivaya

silence_speaks
17 August 2013, 09:11 AM
Dear Necromancer,
:) Namasthe!

Take the Trataka practise. Its a very useful practice. I am not saying its not useful.We will go slowly, there is no hurry.
Now here is my question... why do you need such a practice.
Please give a short answer :).

Love!
Silence

Necromancer
17 August 2013, 09:18 AM
Dear Necromancer,
:) Namasthe!

Take the Trataka practise. Its a very useful practice. I am not saying its not useful.We will go slowly, there is no hurry.
Now here is my question... why do you need such a practice.
Please give a short answer :).

Love!
Silence
Namaste.

The realisation of Brahman requires you to become immersed in that 'space in between thoughts' or within the 'absence of thought'.

The goal of Trataka is to be absorbed in dharana. When one is totally absorbed in dharana, reaching altered states of consciousness is much easier than if you have a million thoughts and desires floating around in your head.

Short enough?

Aum Namah Shivaya

silence_speaks
17 August 2013, 09:24 AM
Namaste.

The realisation of Brahman requires you to become immersed in that 'space in between thoughts' or within the 'absence of thought'.

The goal of Trataka is to be absorbed in dharana. When one is totally absorbed in dharana, reaching altered states of consciousness is much easier than if you have a million thoughts and desires floating around in your head.

Short enough?

Aum Namah Shivaya

Dear Necromancer,
:) Namasthe!
Some times short answers give more clarity than a long answer, that's why I requested for a short answer and this answer of yours gives me very good understanding of your standpoint. Please note , we are not debating here. We are simply " seeing " a few points together. If you have the patience to participate, we can mutually exchange something.

So here is another question: So you practise dharana, mind is settled. Does it remain like that or does it run into desires etc again ?

Again a short answer is appreciated :)

Love!
Silence

Necromancer
17 August 2013, 09:27 AM
Dear Necromancer,
:) Namasthe!
Some times short answers give more clarity than a long answer, that's why I requested for a short answer and this answer of yours gives me very good understanding of your standpoint. Please note , we are not debating here. We are simply " seeing " a few points together. If you have the patience to participate, we can mutually exchange something.

So here is another question: So you practise dharana, mind is settled. Does it remain like that or does it run into desires etc again ?

Again a short answer is appreciated :)

Love!
Silence
Namaste.

For me, it returns to thoughts/desires again, because I am not fully established in Nirvikalpa Samadhi yet.

Aum Namah Shivaya

smaranam
17 August 2013, 09:32 AM
Namaste

Thanks for spending time on / attending to this KRshNamay post.

Your sadhana is like "Whenever Ego raises, you involve Sri Krishna and Sri Krishna dances on the hoods of ego to subdue it"
But once thats done, ego raises agian... so this goes on ...

How do you ensure that your mind is merged in Sri Krishna and does not come out again at all ? Is there such a possibility ?
Well, kAliyA leaves the yamuna for good. So that must apply to the final dance, not interim.


Short answer: The real core sAdhanA is / has been
1. Talk to Shri KRshNa (He is my Guru) (or He will talk to point something out if I don't)
2. To keep His message in Bhagavad Gita alive. It has been seived seived seived for years, enough to catch the culprit on the spot - upto chapter and verse.
3. ArchanA also helps tremendously with discipline. Your world revolves around Him not just in the mAnas-sky but hands-on. Hardly any room is left for ego till it gets suffocated and dies. (My hunger, my taste, my schedule, my sleep, my convenience, my TV serial, my picnic, all on my terms. NO. substitute my with HIS)
----------------

Experience tells me how rapidly things, priorities spill in the background as the chariot races forward. Things that mattered just last month or last year or last quarter, do not matter at all any more! The mind is at His Lotus Feet. First it loved to wander but always holding His hand. He allowed it. Then later it was ashamed that Govinda should have to babysit like this. The mind matured - as the AtmA watched - first the mind wants to share every silly things with the Sakhis. Then it gives that up too.

"I am a devotee" is also an ego that has fallen into the past. Sankalpa is dying one by one. Really. I have full faith in this Lotus-eyed MAdhav. There is hardly any me and you here. Yet, occasionally He asks "What do you want? ask." In the past I would say "Just You" and HE said "But you already have ME" , and of course "don't ever let me forget You across lifetimes no matter what" - a prayer.
This time I said, lets erradicate this [independance of] manas-buddhi that wants to think despite all your directions, and yet, may I never ever forget You (vismaraN). Please make that happen - I don't know how.

Regarding ensuring KRshNa-consciousness 24 X 7, all I can say without any ahamkaar trust me, is - I don't do anything to ensure. He is just there. In the past when asked "Will You ever leave?" He says "I can't, but also don't want to"
It is merely a question of you sincerely wanting vikArs to die. He will make it happen the next second. (have experienced this too, but the list has not been fully ticked off yet :) )

NAm jap and all navadh bhakti sAdhanA limbs are very effective (this is my experience too) but we can let people see for themselves, so not included here.

So KEY: Sincerity - I think, but look forward to your input.

_/\_

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

silence_speaks
17 August 2013, 09:45 AM
Namaste.

For me, it returns to thoughts/desires again, because I am not fully established in Nirvikalpa Samadhi yet.

Aum Namah Shivaya

Dear Nacromancer,
:) So this was my original question...

Why does it return to thoughts / desires ?

What is your approach ? Do you first "FIX" the reason why its going to thoughts/desires
or do you practice dharana ?

Please understand the difference.

Its like a room ... i come home one day to see my room is full of rain water. I use a nice broom to clean the room.
next day, i return and again the room is full of water.
i clean it again.
what do i need to fix first?
What is the most important fix for me ?
yes its important to clean the room ...
but ...
first step : identify the leaks ... fix them .
fix the leaks
and then once you clean the room, it remains clean.

Please ponder.

Love!
Silence

silence_speaks
17 August 2013, 09:49 AM
Dear Smaranam,
:)



his is as long as the sAdhak "sits on it" All I have to do is request KRshNa - to make things go away (not subdue) one by one by one.


Two questions :
1. So have you asked ? Why has it not yet happened then ?
2. Why one by one ... why not all at once ?

Love!
Silence

Necromancer
17 August 2013, 10:03 AM
Dear Nacromancer,
:) So this was my original question...

Why does it return to thoughts / desires ?

What is your approach ? Do you first "FIX" the reason why its going to thoughts/desires
or do you practice dharana ?

Please understand the difference.

Its like a room ... i come home one day to see my room is full of rain water. I use a nice broom to clean the room.
next day, i return and again the room is full of water.
i clean it again.
what do i need to fix first?
What is the most important fix for me ?
yes its important to clean the room ...
but ...
first step : identify the leaks ... fix them .
fix the leaks
and then once you clean the room, it remains clean.

Please ponder.

Love!
Silence
Namaste.

In keeping with the 'short answers'.

Reward is proportional to investment. I don't meditate as much as I really should or need to to actually keep myself in that state permanently and the simple demands of living and existing in this world brings my mind 'back down to earth' where thoughts and desires exist. I haven't sought to 'fix' this.

If I did really wanted to 'fix it', I would stop loving Lord Shiva and become one with Lord Shiva...let's just put it that way.

Aum Namah Shivaya

silence_speaks
17 August 2013, 10:15 AM
Namaste.

In keeping with the 'short answers'.

Reward is proportional to investment. I don't meditate as much as I really should or need to to actually keep myself in that state permanently and the simple demands of living and existing in this world brings my mind 'back down to earth' where thoughts and desires exist. I haven't sought to 'fix' this.

If I did really wanted to 'fix it', I would stop loving Lord Shiva and become one with Lord Shiva...let's just put it that way.

Aum Namah Shivaya

:)

Forget about meditating much or less.
You meditate once. for 30 mins now ... lets say.

Question is this.
Now you meditated. Mind is Still ... why does it get into thoughts and desires again ? Why does it become agitated again ?

[The room is cleaned. how is it getting filled with rain water again ?]

Becoming one with Siva, etc we will discuss later.

Love!
Silence

Necromancer
17 August 2013, 10:21 AM
Namaste.

I am going to ask you a question this time.

How do you propose one should fix the leaks in the roof before they sweep the floor then?

Aum Namah Shivaya

Necromancer
17 August 2013, 10:25 AM
Namaste.

I omitted to answer your question before I proposed mine.


Question is this.
Now you meditated. Mind is Still ... why does it get into thoughts and desires again ? Why does it become agitated again ?

Because 'I' let it. :)

silence_speaks
17 August 2013, 10:26 AM
Namaste.

I am going to ask you a question this time.

How do you propose one should fix the leaks in the roof before they sweep the floor then?

Aum Namah Shivaya

Dear Necromancer,
:) Nice question ... but I am not talking about fixing the leaks "before" sweeping the floor. All I am saying is these are two different activities.
Sweeping the floor would not fix the leaks!

so long before I can really convey to you in a way that we can see it together, lets continue this discussion.

Lets identify the leaks! Please tell me why does the mind regain its "agitation"... after your meditating and making it still ?
where is it regaining this agitation from ?

Love!
Silence

silence_speaks
17 August 2013, 10:29 AM
Namaste.

I omitted to answer your question before I proposed mine.



Because 'I' let it. :)

:) Thanks :)...
Very nice! you are superb

So a question again: Why do u let it in ?

Necromancer
17 August 2013, 10:40 AM
:) Thanks :)...
Very nice! you are superb

So a question again: Why do u let it in ?
Namaste and thank you.

Because I haven't learned how to reconcile the different states of awareness/existence yet and I have worldly duties to perform that demand I act/behave like 'everybody else'.

I am feeling in my heart that this is all a case for 'attachment'.

Thoughts and desires come and go. I don't think there's really any way of stopping them totally or permanently...one just has to learn not to become attached to them and to 'master' thoughts and desires, rather than letting them 'master' you.

You are getting in and pressing the right buttons, so it's all good and I am learning.

Aum Namah Shivaya

silence_speaks
17 August 2013, 10:43 AM
Namaste and thank you.

Because I haven't learned how to reconcile the different states of awareness/existence yet and I have worldly duties to perform that demand I act/behave like 'everybody else'.

I am feeling in my heart that this is all a case for 'attachment'.

Thoughts and desires come and go. I don't think there's really any way of stopping them totally or permanently...one just has to learn not to become attached to them and to 'master' thoughts and desires, rather than letting them 'master' you.

You are getting in and pressing the right buttons, so it's all good and I am learning.

Aum Namah Shivaya

Dear Necromancer,
:) Please feel free to reply at your convenience. There is really no hurry.
You are really thinking very well.

Please ponder over "Why do I have attachments" next :)
you can reply when you find time and ill reply when i find time... no urgency in any of this.


Love!
Silence

silence_speaks
17 August 2013, 10:44 AM
and yes, thanks a lot for participating in the discussion.

Necromancer
17 August 2013, 10:56 AM
Dear Necromancer,
:) Please feel free to reply at your convenience. There is really no hurry.
You are really thinking very well.

Please ponder over "Why do I have attachments" next :)
you can reply when you find time and ill reply when i find time... no urgency in any of this.


Love!
Silence
Namaste.

I don't know if you would actually call them attachments - I guess you could.

In really simple, basic terms - sitting in a cave and meditating all day isn't going to pay the electricity bills nor put food on the table for my family.

Yes, I worry about money (or the lack of it), but I am not greedy or attached to it at all.

I guess it's more a case of thoughts relating to my Dharma more than anything else.

I am not a realised soul by any means...but even saints and sages have to 'come down into their Throat Chakra' occasionally to have dealings in the world.

Aum Namah Shivaya

silence_speaks
17 August 2013, 11:04 AM
Dear Necromancer,
:)

You have once again made some excellent points:



sitting in a cave and meditating all day isn't going to pay the electricity bills nor put food on the table for my family.


So this creates two categories ... two seclusion's ... or two compartments in your life... Meditation Period, Non Meditation period.

This itself is sufficient problem but we ill come back to it a little later.
But here is a question: is really your operation in the world a problem. inquire.
immediately after meditation, you do a few things ... and those don't really disperse the mind.
slowly as the day gets along, somewhere its "as if lost"!
now the question is ... what triggers it?
mere activity ?

[ Note: silence is not disturbed by the chirping of birds or a temple bell. They only enhance the silence!]

Love!
Silence

silence_speaks
17 August 2013, 11:07 AM
To The Viewers of this forum, who find this interesting,
Please feel free to participate.

Participation, would ensure a healthy discussion... There is no attempt to judge anyone or prove any method as wrong here. Please note this.

I may not reply at a brisk rate ... but let this discussion and enquiry go along. We will, in due course, realize where it leads. Give it the benefit of doubt.

And lastly, let me stress that I am not going against Shastras[scriptures], I am 100% in accordance with shastras. I am not using the technical jargon since it can confuse a layman. This is for one and all... common language and simple terminology.

Love!
Silence

Necromancer
17 August 2013, 11:14 AM
Dear Necromancer,
:)

You have once again made some excellent points:



So this creates two categories ... two seclusion's ... or two compartments in your life... Meditation Period, Non Meditation period.

This itself is sufficient problem but we ill come back to it a little later.
But here is a question: is really your operation in the world a problem. inquire.
immediately after meditation, you do a few things ... and those don't really disperse the mind.
slowly as the day gets along, somewhere its "as if lost"!
now the question is ... what triggers it?
mere activity ?

[ Note: silence is not disturbed by the chirping of birds or a temple bell. They only enhance the silence!]

Love!
Silence
Namaste.

What triggers it?

Not being in the meditative state anymore triggers it.

Yes, it's like I live 'two lives' and you are totally correct there....but meditation makes me a lot happier and calmer in my 'external state' than if I didn't meditate at all.

We are going to get into Lord Shiva sooner or later, because the feelings invoked by this conversation, are exactly the same as I have when Yajvan starts discussing Kashmir Shaivism and Shiva Advaita. lol

Aum Namah Shivaya

silence_speaks
17 August 2013, 11:28 AM
Namaste.

What triggers it?

Not being in the meditative state anymore triggers it.

Yes, it's like I live 'two lives' and you are totally correct there....but meditation makes me a lot happier and calmer in my 'external state' than if I didn't meditate at all.

We are going to get into Lord Shiva sooner or later, because the feelings invoked by this conversation, are exactly the same as I have when Yajvan starts discussing Kashmir Shaivism and Shiva Advaita. lol

Aum Namah Shivaya

Dear Necromancer,
:)
Lets temporarily park "two lives" . Its a very very important point to discuss.

Here we are experimenting with ourselves. so lets try to "Zoom IN" into experiences a little and lets see if we are on the same page.

When something happens ... say a news is heard. What ever it is.
First what happens ?

T1: I get a thought true to the perception. The news has to form a part of mind first.

T2: I articulate it.
(and within seconds ...)
T3: "I Like this" or "I do not like this" occurs.


Now let me stop here... we will take a case study and elaborate on this more.
Here ...
which of these thoughts is causing the "Friction" that is disturbing the calm mind ?

Please see.
T1... pure perception ... innocent.
T2... just an articulation ... still not affecting.
T3: affects.

isn't this so ?
Technically T1 and T2 are called Idam Vritti ... "This Thoughts". The things as they are.
T3 is called "Aham Vritti" ... an "I thought"

:) Enquiry still some way to go...

Love!
Silence

Necromancer
17 August 2013, 11:47 AM
Namaste.

Before I retire for the evening, my conscience/overmind/Siva has sort of told me to 'fess up'.

Why do I really let it happen? Because I am scared. I am terrified.

I am holding on to that last little bit of what makes me...me and even my faith and love for the Lord isn't enough to overcome this.

I know and fully realise that I should just 'let go' but I can't. I can't take that step because the only attachment I have left is the notion of 'myself'.

Sometimes, I'll break down in tears because I'll get to that stage, then there's like this huge brick wall there.

I have said before, I am stuck in Savikalpa awareness.

I'm also glad you are keeping this in 'layman's terms'. I am a pretty intelligent person, but I don't have 'book smarts'.

People discuss the Scriptures and Shastras on here and I don't understand any of it.

At least one good thing has come of this. After this discussion, I fully realise now, that I am a Raja Yogi.

That's all from me for tonight and for a couple of days. It's nearly 3am over here in Sydney and I am tired now.

I also want to give other people the chance to reply to this, as I am all 'talked out'.

Aum Namah Shivaya

smaranam
17 August 2013, 02:49 PM
Two questions :
1. So have you asked ? Why has it not yet happened then ?
2. Why one by one ... why not all at once ?

praNAm

1. For the things I have asked, He has made them go away. He is infinitely merciful.

(Also, my sAdhanA is not just asking Shri Hari to dance on the kaliya temporarily. It is to note that I am not this body-mind with which people associate, and KRshNa lives in all hearts, and use that knowledge on the spur of the moments while communicating & prioritizing. Life or relatively static decision making are taken care of by Shri KRshNa and the Gita.

The last two statements are supposed to fix the leaks in yr room example.
POTENTIALLY NEEDED at all times: awareness, silence, japa, reminder of who I am [not]

Then why is the list of potential anarthas* around?
0. Sincerity is not enough when needed
1. More japa => alertness may be needed
2. it does not matter to either of us or the world - it is external to us (so is this body-mind)
3. they may not be anarthas to begin with

(KRshNa and I are a team. It is not about waving a magic wand. He gives free will and never interferes unless asked. To ask, He in turn has to give the buddhi, prerNA (inspiration), for which there should be a sincere desire in the sAdhak.)

Everything points to either a matter of 1)principle, 2)integrity, or 3)dehAbhimAn* on rare occasion when they come up.

Explanation, clarification, reaction, even retaliation, assertion, voluntary sharing of information - ALL of these break the maun. NOT all of these are anarthas as in originating from dehAbhimAn. Some are required.
It becomes your responsibility to present yourself correctly for others to trust you.

I have nowhere to go or come. No one to impress.
Interaction with the world is minimal, but there. I can minimize that further by stricter awareness.
HABITS such as coming to HDF, doing some unnecessary research, occasionally watch some TV show (including thirst for Hari KathA on TV), late afternoon snacking, as liesure activities, do not go on a priority list since they are related to KRshNa and fairly harmless.

---------
*anartha = blemish, fault
*dehAbhimAn = deha + abhimAn = false identification with the body, misplaced ego, importance


om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~

yajvan
17 August 2013, 06:55 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté


I am either IN samAdhi or NOT. So there are only TWO possible states.

I see this slightly differently. I can be in samādhi with eyes shut (which most think) and I can be in samādhi with eyes open ( my preference). It is the difference between turīya¹ and turīyātīta¹ . It is the comparison of the jñāni and the vijñāni ( vi+jñāni).

iti śivaṁ

words

turīya - starts its origin in the word catur meaning 4. Hence turīya has come to be known as the 4th.
Yet when we talk of the 2nd derivative of this turīya it is a discussion of the spirit and no longer does this 'part' or 'state' perfectly apply as spirit is far from be fractionated as a part or state. It is considered whole ( bhūman or full, filled ).
Yet the wise also teach us of turīyātīta is turīya + atīta - the 4th + beyond, past. Hence turīyātīta is beyond the 4th; atīta अतीत - gone beyond, past.
Another view ( not different, just extended) of this turīya is called turyasvastha ( some spell turīyasvastha) .
It means/defined as Self-abiding , being in one's Self or really 'in the Self' one's natural state. We see then how 'state' can sneak into the conversation as one wishes to talk of natural state of Being. It is based upon the 4th ( turīya ) and beyond the 4th ( turīyātīta )

silence_speaks
17 August 2013, 10:19 PM
Dear smaranam,
:) If what you say is indeed true and not a "mood of mind", you live a liberated life!
It does not matter whether one is involved in writing in HDF or watching a TV ...
yatra yatra mano yaati tatra tatra samadhinah !

Wherever the mind is, there itself is Samadhi.
I'll put it in your language.
Wherever the mind goes , there itself Sri Krishna IS.

and thankfully this is not something to really feel great about, coz its so for all. Every one of us are in the embrace of God 24 7! Its only unfortunate that we did not recognize all along.

Love!
Silence

silence_speaks
18 August 2013, 12:20 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté


I see this slightly differently. I can be in samādhi with eyes shut (which most think) and I can be in samādhi with eyes open ( my preference). It is the difference between turīya¹ and turīyātīta¹ . It is the comparison of the jñāni and the vijñāni ( vi+jñāni).

iti śivaṁ

words
turīya - starts its origin in the word catur meaning 4. Hence turīya has come to be known as the 4th.
Yet when we talk of the 2nd derivative of this turīya it is a discussion of the spirit and no longer does this 'part' or 'state' perfectly apply as spirit is far from be fractionated as a part or state. It is considered whole ( bhūman or full, filled ).
Yet the wise also teach us of turīyātīta is turīya + atīta - the 4th + beyond, past. Hence turīyātīta is beyond the 4th; atīta अतीत - gone beyond, past.
Another view ( not different, just extended) of this turīya is called turyasvastha ( some spell turīyasvastha) .
It means/defined as Self-abiding , being in one's Self or really 'in the Self' one's natural state. We see then how 'state' can sneak into the conversation as one wishes to talk of natural state of Being. It is based upon the 4th ( turīya ) and beyond the 4th ( turīyātīta )

Dear Yajvan,
:) Turya is not a "state of mind"
Turya is You.
Turya is you, present through all three states of mind.
With reference to the states of mind you are named Turya
and yet, since we need not even name yourself w.r.t the three states,
you are Turyathita.

Its like saying ... with respect to the dream, I am the witness.
but in reality i am neither the dream entity nor the witnessing entity.
both refer to the same... only from different standpoints.

Turya is Giving world a status of Mithya.
Turyathita is giving world the status of Asat.

So both refer to the same thing, not beyond etc.
And yet, both are just the same. YOU. Self. Not a state of mind which is witnessed -- the seen is mithya.

Love!
Silence

smaranam
18 August 2013, 12:47 AM
I see this slightly differently. I can be in samādhi with eyes shut (which most think) and I can be in samādhi with eyes open ( my preference). It is the difference between turīya¹ and turīyātīta¹ . It is the comparison of the jñāni and the vijñāni ( vi+jñāni).
praNAm Yajvanji

By samAdhi I did mean both i.e. closed-eyed-focused AND open-eyed-walking-on-the-street-chopping-vegetables-singing-dancing-exchanging-ideas-samAdhi, as long as Shri KRshNa is in it (the magenta section is a personal extension :) ). Please see "non-samAdhi" below.


interest, distraction, nectar, thoughts, surrender

interest = IN KRshNa
distraction = TOWARDS KRshNa
nectar = ABOUT KRshNa
next nectar = FOR KRshNa
thoughts = OF KRshNa
surrender = TO KRshNa
samadhi = IN KRshNa
So what am I doing on HDF? I am IN samAdhi. The wierdest threads on HDF can be KRshNa these days. Scary.

So what is NON-samAdhi? When the ego called KAliyA shows His poisonous hoods.
What do you do then? Ask KRshNa to dance on the hoods and make KAliyA go away and never be seen in the Yamuna.

_/\_

on namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~

smaranam
18 August 2013, 12:59 AM
and thankfully this is not something to really feel great about, coz its so for all. Every one of us are in the embrace of God 24 7!

Love!
Silence

True, and therefore you cannot help but notice how magnanimously generous gracious benevolent loving a Friend He is. SuRhut.

Thank You for working with us and on us, on this thread.

vasudeva sutam devam kauMsa chANura mardanam
devaki paramAnandam kRshNam vande jagat-gurum ||

He Who juggles truths if needed to keep His promises across yuga and kalpa eternally,
He Whose Lotus Feet are forever moving in the direction of those who call Him,
That Govinda I worship

govindam Adi purusham tam aham bhajAmi _/\_

silence_speaks
18 August 2013, 01:05 AM
and that recognition means one is ever satisfied.
and just the recognition ...
not necessary to have an associate emotion.
emotion may be there, may not be there.

one ever is satisfied , infact, one is ever fulfilled ... as one is ever in that embrace of God.

Love!
Silence

Mana
18 August 2013, 02:29 AM
Namaste,

Upon following this fascinating thread, I feel inspired to add some thought from the perspective of another mind. My meditation is playing the guitar and singing, it has saved my life already by serving as a medium of energy dispersal. Rather like having a large resistor in a circuit, which stop the circuit from melting.


Turya is Giving world a status of Mithya.
Turyathita is giving world the status of Asat.

So both refer to the same thing, not beyond etc.
And yet, both are just the same. YOU. Self. Not a state of mind which is witnessed -- the seen is mithya.


Not witnessed, if I might suggest rather that it is felt; the minds eye is fed by agni, that of manas, the point at which agni becomes thought upon its course, is stimulated by the wind that are our senses. Thus provoking delusion if one is not awear that this is happening; as thoughts and their chandas manifest.

The world is very real, and it is meditation that stops ones spiritual combustion from killing them, whilst experiencing this state.

Perception of that is however, dependant entirely on its (your direction) course and the extent to which one is concious of this happening; based in experience, memory and ones level of perception. How could we conceive of anything other than that which we believe that we have experienced?
Now comes an interesting point: To what extent are we truthful with ourselves, many are very proficient in their own self deceit, a path which leads to a probable destruction should this flame be ignited; thus the obvious importance of Yama and Niyama in ones habitude.

In a relative field, the only thing one has is ones point of reference. The realisation that this point of reference is its self in a state of permanent fluctuation within the 3 dimensional space that are the guṇa; this is the day we go beyond sleep ...

Literally, we may adopt a sleep pattern that is completely detached from the normal 24h body clock, speech becomes spontaneous, rhythmic, and there is an acceleration of synchronisity in events; this creates a self feeding feedback loop. Which with out proper meditation, can easily kill us; The divine Mothers own divine selection process.

If I have misunderstood anything in my interpretation of that, compared with your own; please do understand the difference in our perspective. I will be delighted to hear your thoughts.
It is through truthful discussion of our experiences, that we can best learn and grow.


Kind regards.

silence_speaks
18 August 2013, 03:19 AM
Dear Mana,
:)
what is your view on "world is like a snake imagined on a rope" ?

Love!
Silence

Mana
18 August 2013, 03:36 AM
Namaste silence speaks.

Here are few thoughts on "world is like a snake imagined on a rope", for your consideration.

Snake is arguably, and I think most likely, amongst the very first words known to man, we can observe its usage amongst many primates and other animals of a much lower birth than that of humans, along with other basic words such as scorpion, bird, originating of course, first in sounds; their emergence from sound is thus one which forms at an extremely fundamental level.

Ropes for our survival, grown from the twine of our life's necessity in construction, again; a fine example of the Divine Mothers selection, if you don't "get it" you are dead ...

Along with the emergence of the word snake, comes the notion of truth; How so? Imagine that your friend has just found a ripe fruit and is preparing to partake of its delights; you wish that he leave it for your own consumption, why not cry snake and see if he runs? The word now creates the same fear as the perception of the same.

Our perception of self, a symptom or side effect of these functional perceptions, has now flourished in to something quite beautiful; comparable with the most delicate of flowers in its structure complexity and its diversity; this has occurred by our being freed from such torment as the frightening grip or poison of snakes; by the wings of our own intellect, as conciousness has blossomed; a reflection of the Divine in our own minds, and as such there are snakes within it also, along with the ability to turn the poison into a cure.


Kind regards and thank you for your thought provoking posting. :)

silence_speaks
18 August 2013, 03:58 AM
Dear Mana,
:) Namasthe!



Our perception of self, a symptom or side effect of these functional perceptions.


Can you please elaborate on this point ? What do you exactly mean?

Love!
Silence

Mana
18 August 2013, 04:30 AM
Dear silence_speaks,

Thank you for enquiring as to my thoughts.

By this I mean the emergence of an overly embellished ego and its conceived notions of reality, from that which is a base necessity for basic human survival, to the extravagance of a fully crested bird; It becomes a weight with which we must travel.
At a fundamental level, giving a sense of belonging; of family, friends to kin; devotion to that which we hold dear, a curios thing which in time can evolve in to great civilisations and with that, unfortunately often, to wars of equal scale.

Ahaṃkāra is not bad, but it is something to be aware of; wisdom is perhaps best founded upon knowledge of its ways; as we have emerged from it, we can not easily do without it.


Kind regards.

silence_speaks
18 August 2013, 05:54 AM
Dear Mana,
:)



Ahaṃkāra is not bad, but it is something to be aware of;wisdom is perhaps best founded upon knowledge of its ways; as we have emerged from it, we can not easily do without it.


:) This raises various questions.
1. What is ahamkara ?
2. How will you be aware of ahamkara ? Is it possible to remain continuously aware?
3. Where does wisdom/knowledge come into picture from ?

Love!
Silence

Mana
18 August 2013, 07:21 AM
Dear silence_speaks,

Ahaṃkāra is self conciousness; emanating from dhi śakti or buddhi.
From it emanate the subtil tanmantra by way of nila śakti in tamas; and the gyanendriya and karmendriya by way of bhu śakti or rajas.
Manas is that by which we become aware, it occurs on the junction or the meeting of the subtil tanmantra with the Gyanendriya.

Wisdom is coming into the picture as sri śakti and satva guna, by which we restrain our desired application of the Karmendriya towards a path which is best in keeping with dhi śakti, our original nature; Ahaṃkāra has emerged from there within.

tanmantra = either; air; water; earth; fire.
gyanendriya = hearing; touch; sight; taste; smell.
karmendriya = speech; grasping; walking; procreation; evacuation.

Such a beautiful philosophy :)

Kind regards.

silence_speaks
18 August 2013, 07:37 AM
Dear Mana ji,
:)
Please hold on. Lets delve into this deeper. Slowly...

"Can there be ahamkara without vrittis [mental modifications]."


Love!
Silence

silence_speaks
18 August 2013, 08:27 AM
Dear Mana ji,
:)

Let me explain why I am asking these questions, just so you do not mistake my intention.

Observing the ways of "ego" is typical JK kind of process. Firstly, its not possible to keep on observing all the time. Secondly the subconscious we have is far too "huge" !

another kind of idea often popular amongst people is "one should become egoless"... this is another problem... anyways, lets not discuss it immediately.

So what I am saying is ... Why do you want to observe this ahamkara ? IF there is a reason, and if that reason can be fulfilled, without having to observe continuously or without having to constantly be vigilant ... you are comfortably in meditation 24 7! This is what I wish to illustrate ... that its possible.
But long before I do that, people come here from so many diverse backgrounds, I am just getting an understanding of your background knowledge and posing questions to show that these "oft quoted methods" are not complete or sufficient.

This is precisely why i am asking so many questions.
i understand it takes lot of time ... but i hope the reason for these questions is well appreciated.

Love!
Silence

Mana
18 August 2013, 08:43 AM
Dear silence_speaks,

Please excuse my enthusiasm; I do get carried away. To my mind this is a question of acceptance of the limited process, that is how we think, rather than a cognitive process.
Vritti exist on the border between the material and conciousness; between prakṛti and purusha, and are as such, not solely in our minds. Tendencies, or eddies in currents which are self repeating, often self serving.
Ahaṃkāra could be said to be a vritti which has created us ...
After all, were it not for the Raja's of our parents actions; we would not be here at all!
Spotting these forms and patterns, in our own nature and thought patterns, is important in untying our karmic knots; that we might then achieve still thoughts, and peace when at rest; to make good of life when in action.


Kind regards.


(http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/member.php?u=3973)

smaranam
18 August 2013, 10:07 AM
yatra yatra mano yaati tatra tatra samadhinah !
Wherever the mind is, there itself is Samadhi.
...
and that recognition means one is ever satisfied.
one ever is satisfied , infact, one is ever fulfilled ... as one is ever in that embrace of God.

So one who is ever-samAdhAni is in samAdhi.
In MarAThi, samAdhAn = satisfaction.

Interestingly, the Sanskrit dictionary does not show up one word for the other, although this is what you are implying above, in two different posts.

samAdhAn (http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=samAdhAna&script=&direction=SE&link=yes) (closest in list is "complete absorption")

satisfaction (http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?script=HK&beginning=0+&tinput=+satisfaction&direction=AU) (closest in list is "trupti" )

_/\_ Thank You for all the pointers.

yajvan
18 August 2013, 10:15 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté


Dear Yajvan,
:) Turya is not a "state of mind"
Turya is You.

We use the term ~ state~ so one does not get confused... we talked on this for weeks-on-end several seasons ago. For the average reader one must get comfortable with the terms then take it forward. So, we make it as easy as comfortable to comprehend, then take it a bit deeper. Then 'state' disappears.

Please feel free to do an HDF search on this subject as there is a wealth of information offered.

iti śivaṁ

silence_speaks
18 August 2013, 10:50 AM
So one who is ever-samAdhAni is in samAdhi.
In MarAThi, samAdhAn = satisfaction.

Interestingly, the Sanskrit dictionary does not show up one word for the other, although this is what you are implying above, in two different posts.

samAdhAn (http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=samAdhAna&script=&direction=SE&link=yes) (closest in list is "complete absorption")

satisfaction (http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?script=HK&beginning=0+&tinput=+satisfaction&direction=AU) (closest in list is "trupti" )

_/\_ Thank You for all the pointers.

Dear smaranam,
:) When one is totally fulfilled ... one Remains totally where on IS.
Mind does not move here and there coz there is no "dissatisfaction" within.
We propel the mind with our dissatisfaction with the state of things as they are.
So naturally when one is totally , absolutely fulfilled within ... and has no where to go ... either coz one knows one's true nature or one recognizes that one is ever in the embrace of Sri Krishna ... then one is totally Resolved ... Here and Now .
so I have linked three views : buddhism : Be here and now. Shankara: Know you are the Whole, Ever Fulfilled ... Bhakti School: You are ever in the Embrace of God so revel in it.
Thus one is ever Resolved and just IS.
Thats liberated living.
But provided one recognizes it :)

Love!
Silence

silence_speaks
18 August 2013, 10:56 AM
just a digression:

The main problem is "I am not Happy with myself and the state of things as they are"
and even if somehow, one is able to discover that ... it can be easily robbed by a few thoughts.
so how do i remain ever satisfied, ever fulfilled ... so much so that nothing can rob me of it?
That is the main question...

and In my view Jnana alone [which is equivalent to Para Bhakti ... total surrender] can do this ...

anyways... what is this jnana and how can one sculpture this out in one's life ... thats what I am here for.

yoga vasishta speaks of 4 gates to liberation: satisfaction, detachment, inquiry and company of the holy...
and all these are really interlinked... so much so that it says that if one can get any of these, one can find the others as well.

so the root to liberated living does not lie in a practice ... it lies in DISCOVERING YOU ARE FULFILLED.
practices are simply aids to it.
Even the idea "i have to remove thoughts" is sufficient to create a sense of lacking ... and "DRIVE" mind.

Love!
Silence

yajvan
18 August 2013, 12:17 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

Finally: yajvan, a small request. Can you please let me know the source of this "Upaayas thread" that you posted. I have been searching for this material, just heard it

Please take note that I take no authorship ( I am not the creator) in the vast knowledge found in the vijñāna bhairava karaka-s¹. Yet too it is a sub-section (chapter, some like to call prapāṭhaka others may call it khaṇḍa) of the rudrayāmala tantra. This is considered bhairava-śāstra i.e. totally, whole, full.

Then one asks, yajvan from where do you get this information ? From svāmī lakṣman-jū who was a great friend of my teacher.

The lineage within kaśmir śaivism and its traces
Svāmī lakṣman-jū's guru was svāmī mahatābakak and his was svāmī ram… the lineage is traced back to durvāsā ṛiṣi. It is said durvāsā ṛiṣi received knowledge of bhairava tantra from śrikaṇṭhanathā (śiva) Himself.
Accordingly durvāsā ṛiṣi was instructed by śrikaṇṭhanathā to expand the thought of bhairava tantra in all the universe with no restriction to varna or jāti, male or female.
The first to receive his dīkṣā was Tryambakanātha, his son. What is of special note this sisya (śiṣya) was a mind-born son. He also created two more mind born sons and a mind born daughter for the upliftment of the family of man. Her name was ardhatryambakā.

Why did durvāsā ṛiṣi pursue this venue? He was a brahhmacārī and therefore ūrdhvaretah or one preserving ones sexual energy and no displacement of sukra.
From father to mind born son and daughter, some of the children also created mind born śiṣya-s. It's said that 15 siddhas were created in this manner. It was this 15th siddha that was unsuccessful in creating mind born śiṣya-=s.
For this he searched for a female with all sattvic qualities to produce his children and śiṣyas. Up to this point it was always father-to-son initiation.
Yet starting with somānandanātha muni the dīkṣā began from Master to disciple. It is from this lineage that Abhinavagupta came to be initiated into this great knowledge of kaśmir śaivism.

It's interesting to note there are a few views on how durvāsā ṛiṣi divided up the teaching of Śaivāgama (Śiva-āgama-s). One view is the triad of advaita ( non-dual), dvaita (dual) and dbaitādvaita ( non-dual +dual). From this view ( offered by svāmī Lakṣman-jū).

Tryambakanātha received advaita ( non-dual) from durvāsā ṛiṣi
Amardaka received dvaita (dual) from durvāsā ṛiṣi
Srinatha received dbaitādvaita ( non-dual +dual) ) from durvāsā ṛiṣi
The other view is the same recipients shown above , yet Tryambakanātha's daughter founded a 4th school , some call this the third-and-one-half way and is identified with the Kaula tradition, called kula-pratkriyā. I mention this because Abhinavagupta suggests there are 2 teachers qualified to teach Śaivism, that of Lajuliśa and Śrīkaṇṭha ( another name for Śiva). It is my understanding that Lajuliśa was the founder of the Paśupata-s; Śrīkaṇṭha, as mentioned in the quote above, gave the knowledge to durvāsā ṛiṣi , who then passed it on to the mind born śiṣyas mentioned.

Now there is other information that leads us into kali yuga, but these details only gets us deeper into the weeds of things. I will continue to study this lineage to better understand it and will leave more of the details for another time.

The above is the lineage of kaśmir śaivism, considered a pure trika system. Perhaps others can add to this and review the sub-systems in general i.e. Pratyabhijñā ( SELF recognition), Kula ( grouping and used for 'totality' , Universal Consciousness), Krama ( progress made step-by-step), and Spanda ( the throb, movement, SELF-referral of the Divine). These are the 4 areas I have been studying and sharing with you as I find items of interest. This is the wonderful knowledge that is found in the āgama-s¹.


iti śivaṁ

words and reference books:

Parā-trīśikā Vivaraṇa -or- That (Śrī Devī) who transcends and is Identical with trika. It also means That which speaks out (kāyati) the three (tri) śakti-s (śa) of the Supreme (parā). Vivaraṇa means the act of uncovering, opening, or explanation - by Abhinavagupta
The Triadic Heart Of Śiva - by Paul Eduardi Muller-Ortega. This is a study of Abhinavagupta's many works in Tantra and Non-dual Śaivism
Kaśmir śaivism by svāmī lakṣman-jū
paramārthasāra is in essence the work of śeṣa patañjali ( some call ādiśeṣa ) consisting of 85 śloka-s and is expanded upon
by abhinavagupta within the framework of advitīya (~ non dual~, without a second) kaśmir śaivism
āgama - a traditional doctrine or precept , collection of such doctrines , sacred work ; ā = towards or towards us + gam =to go to or towards , approach; So the question is to go towards or approach what? To approach us , to us the aspirant, or to Śaivism or Śiva? It is that knowledge that brings us toward , and to approach Him.
khecarī samatā - please see the following HDF Post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=23619&postcount=16 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=23619&postcount=16)
khaṇḍa - a part , chapter
prapāṭhaka - a lecture ; also a chapter or subdivision of a book
3 levels - please see this HDF post:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...39&postcount=4 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=18339&postcount=4)

silence_speaks
18 August 2013, 12:32 PM
Dear yajvan,
:) Namasthe!

Thank you for the information.
I guessed it should be from the tantras :).

And of course I know you are not the creator ! LOL!

Love!
Silence

silence_speaks
18 August 2013, 01:01 PM
Dear yajvan,
:) Another out of the context question, just out of curiosity : What is the status accorded to Ribhu Gita in Kashmiri Shaivism ?

Love!
Silence

yajvan
18 August 2013, 01:10 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

I think I may be missing a point here or there... there has now been 58 posts, yet I am remiss in seeing ' The right way to meditate' , that has :

a. a method offered
b. scriptural support - via sūtra , śruti, smṛti or some śāstra indications
c. or ārṣa, belonging or derived from ṛṣi-s ;
d. or paṇḍit or guru or svāmī or event their student (śiṣya)

'The right way to meditate' is fine - yet according to whose POV (darśana or vision/school) is relevant here so it can be appreciated. This allows the HDF reader to compare and contrast knowledge and personal experience.

I am fine with one's direct personal experience... then we call this out.
' based upon my experience....' , like that.

The conversation has been positive and interactive , a good thing for HDF. Now perhaps it is time to peel the banana, no ?

iti śivaṁ

silence_speaks
18 August 2013, 01:27 PM
Dear Yajvan,
:)

There are many gurus/teachers who have aided me with this understanding [whether or not some of them know it :)].

Yajvan, :) I have not talked about a method. I have rejected methods. [or have I ? I just gave them a second place]
if you have seen carefully.

And where does this knowledge come from? From me to this forum, to me from some guru and that guru got it from someone else ... finally from the scriptures. In any case, the proof of the pudding is in eating. If one gets it, you stand free and liberated.

My understanding is based on the teachings of my gurus and Ashtavakra Gita.

Now I am deliberately going slow ... and I am not teaching a method.
All I am saying is common sense point : if you see your room is full of rain water, its important to clean it, but more important to block the leaks.

Love!
Silence

yajvan
18 August 2013, 03:12 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté



Dear Yajvan,
:)

There are many gurus/teachers who have aided me with this understanding [whether or not some of them know it :)].

Yajvan, :) I have not talked about a method. I have rejected methods. [or have I ? I just gave them a second place] if you have seen carefully.


I am happy to hear of your teachers... and if you feel you have rejected methods, fine too. Yet to the attentive reader that wishes to compare-and-contrast ( this is how we learn), we are left with little to do this with.

For me, and me alone, value comes with some audit trial , some technique (which is code for method and a different way of saying upāya). Otherwise we land up in the field of conjecture , with one salient exception. The wisdom that is spoken from the ācārya who is established in Being. If this is the case we welcome your wisdom. If not, we stand on the shoulders of the wise when we talk and give them the credits.

iti śivaṁ

Necromancer
18 August 2013, 08:59 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

I think I may be missing a point here or there... there has now been 58 posts, yet I am remiss in seeing ' The right way to meditate' , that has :

a. a method offered
b. scriptural support - via sūtra , śruti, smṛti or some śāstra indications
c. or ārṣa, belonging or derived from ṛṣi-s ;
d. or paṇḍit or guru or svāmī or event their student (śiṣya)

'The right way to meditate' is fine - yet according to whose POV (darśana or vision/school) is relevant here so it can be appreciated. This allows the HDF reader to compare and contrast knowledge and personal experience.

I am fine with one's direct personal experience... then we call this out.
' based upon my experience....' , like that.

The conversation has been positive and interactive , a good thing for HDF. Now perhaps it is time to peel the banana, no ?


iti śivaṁ
Namaste, Yajvan.

I fully concur with this. I tried...

Aum Namah Shivaya

silence_speaks
19 August 2013, 12:17 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté




I am happy to hear of your teachers... and if you feel you have rejected methods, fine too. Yet to the attentive reader that wishes to compare-and-contrast ( this is how we learn), we are left with little to do this with.

For me, and me alone, value comes with some audit trial , some technique (which is code for method and a different way of saying upāya). Otherwise we land up in the field of conjecture , with one salient exception. The wisdom that is spoken from the ācārya who is established in Being. If this is the case we welcome your wisdom. If not, we stand on the shoulders of the wise when we talk and give them the credits.

iti śivaṁ


Dear Yajvan,
:) When you speak like "From whom is this coming", "is this from a acharya who is established in Being" ?
When you ask this question ...

you are trying to get a knowledge "YOU CAN BELIEVE" ...
And your faith depends on "YOUR BELIEF ON A PARTICULAR MASTER"
This is purely secondary knowledge ... isn't it ?

Scriptures are called "Darshana Shastras". They are "Pramanas".
When they are "Revealed" ... "One should get it --- the VISION, the DARSHANA"
unfortunately, due to incompetent teachers people keep seeking secondary means to knowledge.

Take this sequence...
"You are Atma" ... ok , so who says this ? Ramana ... oh! Fine !I am indeed Atma then ... Ramana was really great!
and the student learnt "NOTHING"! Life goes on the same way !
This is the problem.


Love!
Silence

Necromancer
19 August 2013, 12:30 AM
Take this sequence...
"You are Atma" ... ok , so who says this ? Ramana ... oh! Fine !I am indeed Atma then ... Ramana was really great!
and the student learnt "NOTHING"! Life goes on the same way !
This is the problem.


Love!
Silence
Namaste.

How can one describe, in words, such an intangible concept like "you are Atma" without using the words "you" and "are"?

Even the phrase: "Aham Brahmasmi" is a totally dvaitic concept, because there is still "Aham" and "Brahmasmi". There is still subject and object there.

Thus, it is difficult to just say "Siva" or "Brahman" without the student or mind of that student seeking some relevance or justification for saying only that.

Then, we can say that all is Brahman, or Brahman is all, but that still separates the whole from its constituent parts, even if the 'all' does not really have any 'constituent parts' per se.

A master telling the shishya "you are that" is just a pointer along the way...tat tvam asi was never meant to be taken literally and hence the problem you describe arises.

When we try and explain realisation of the absolute to others (which cannot be explained), we always have to put it into subjective terms because there are no other terms to put it in...

Unless, of course, the master says nothing and just gives Shaktipat.

Aum Namah Shivaya

silence_speaks
19 August 2013, 12:35 AM
Dear Necromancer,
:)

Did you hear that scriptures are Shabda Pramana ?
Which means they are means of knowledge ?

:) in what sense do you think they are Pramana ?

Love!
Silence

silence_speaks
19 August 2013, 12:43 AM
The truth is to be reached through " SRUTI - YUKTI - ANUBHAVAH " its said ...
and people say "hearing, reflecting and experience" :)
Anu-bhavam ... anu... following ... bhav to "Be"
no experience...
BE, following or after shravana and manana.
yukthi has a definite role ... a definite importance.

sruthi and yukthi do not convey "Atma" to you.
"You are Atma" is also not revealing Atma.
its rather rejecting the adhyasa that one has.
"I am body" is negated by "You are Atma" and associated yukthi [reflection]
without this yukthi... and the pramana itself ... if someone ventures to "obtain" it through an "Experience" thats a grave mistake.

now ...
whether its sravana or upasana ... its not the body or the Brahman that needs it. ITs only mind that needs it. And its only at the level of mind/intellect that a correction is needed. And correction is purely at the level of intellect... a cognitive change.




Love!
Silence

Necromancer
19 August 2013, 12:44 AM
Dear Necromancer,
:)

Did you hear that scriptures are Shabda Pramana ?
Which means they are means of knowledge ?

:) in what sense do you think they are Pramana ?

Love!
Silence
Namaste.

In what sense do I think they are Pramana?

The student is like Svetaketu, full of pride and ego over his own beliefs and teachings....about his own Guru(s) and not really getting the whole picture or concept at all.

Until his father, Uddalaka takes the time to explain the nature of Brahman, basically keeping up and up...and up with it until the boy realises the nature of Brahman for himself, without the use for any more words.

Yeah, that whole 'Eureka' moment.

Aum Namah Shivaya

Mana
19 August 2013, 12:55 AM
Namaste, All

Oh, I hope my input has not been misleading; I am speaking from experience, learning about the subject at hand on my own, with no guide or Guru, not by choice the Divine Mothers will would be a more fitting description; I am now studying this divine knowledge, that is Sanātana Dharma; which I am very happy to find gives wonderful correlation with experiences.
I have fond memory's of my first reading of the Bhagavad Gita, and also Patangali's astanga yoga; I found descriptions of that which I needed within. I seem to have taken two main paths now, that of Kashmir Shavism, which is truly wonderful, my experience of meditation essentially coincide with that which I have learned now in the light of Kashmir Shavism as expounded by Swami Lakshman Jū.

I am studying Maharishi Parashara also which is I believe of a Vaiṣṇava lineage; I see a complete harmony between the to philosophies, truly wonderful, being a new student I am not yet habituated in the ways of sighting sources in my very limited writing experience, my primary source being from observation of the world about and within me, which I am trying to learn how to better harness and further, by way of these wonderful philosophies. I am currently studying with Jyotiṣa Guru and paṇḍita, Sanjay Rath.
Being a very new student of both Jyotis and Kashmir shavism, it will take me a little time to adopt the correct behaviour and tone of speech.

I understand your concern Yajvan Ji, and shall try to adopt a line of conduct of a more traditional and scholarly nature. Although a man of words I am more currently frequented with the rhythms in speech than on paper; finding reading quite a task, this does not come very easily. Unfortunately it is not easy to hear the Vedas, or any other verse, in my neck of the woods.

I must say that I have found this thread to be rather stimulating. Silence speaks, although his name is rather contradictory; has made some very nice points; having a wonderful energy in his posting!

I thought it delightful that Necromancer discover she was a Raja yogi, after having realised the nature of her leaky roof. She appeared to be thrilled to have discovered a new depth in the understanding of Patanjali.



Kind regards.

silence_speaks
19 August 2013, 01:58 AM
Namaste.

In what sense do I think they are Pramana?

The student is like Svetaketu, full of pride and ego over his own beliefs and teachings....about his own Guru(s) and not really getting the whole picture or concept at all.

Until his father, Uddalaka takes the time to explain the nature of Brahman, basically keeping up and up...and up with it until the boy realises the nature of Brahman for himself, without the use for any more words.

Yeah, that whole 'Eureka' moment.

Aum Namah Shivaya

so when the Father explained ...
what if Uddalaka says "You are being proud" ?
and what if Uddalaka says "Whats the point you are trying to convey which I did not learn already ?"


BTW ... Svetaketu used words. and through words only he conveyed.


Just a doubt ... do you feel this thread of mine is unnecessary or do you feel its going off track ? I would prefer to be open. Openly saying "i do not think this is the way" is better from my standpoint.
This is not to criticize any views or ideas.

Love!
Silence

Necromancer
19 August 2013, 02:27 AM
I must say that I have found this thread to be rather stimulating. Silence speaks, although his name is rather contradictory; has made some very nice points; having a wonderful energy in his posting!

I thought it delightful that Necromancer discover she was a Raja yogi, after having realised the nature of her leaky roof. She appeared to be thrilled to have discovered a new depth in the understanding of Patanjali.


Kind regards.
Namaste, Mana.

Yes, thank you. For a very long time I have tried to understand where I actually 'fit' into all of this.

I have tried and then nullified any forms of Yoga I have hitherto practiced.

Am I a Hatha Yogin? am I a Jnana Yogin? a Bhakti? yes, I am all of those...but none did me any 'justice' whatsoever.

I also fully realise that they are just more 'labels' anyway.

I studied Patanjali about 20 years ago now and was an adherent of Ashtanga Yoga, practicing Pranayama, Kriyas, concentration and meditation, but I was always a 'meditating Hatha Yogi' and I never made that connection until now.

Upon participating in this discussion, going back to my roots and my core beliefs, I finally have and gained a new insight and appreciation for Patanjali and yes, I am thrilled....I am now seeing his Yoga Sutras with 'new eyes'.

A bit of background about myself...

After a few experiences and darshana of Lord Shiva as a child (he first appeared to me at age 10 while I was observing a Thaipusam festival in Malaysia), I moved on to esoteric Buddhism and started off with the works of Tuesday Lobsang Rampa (the plumber from Bristol who was all the rage back then - even though, at the time, nobody knew about it). lol

I devoured Rampa's works, almost memorising all his books.

From there, I went on to study Tibetan Buddhism and also devoured the Tibetan Book of the Dead, The Tibetan Book of Great Liberation and the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying. I practiced a lot of Vipassana meditation in my mid-late teens.

Then, somehow I became a member of the Theosophical Society and was introduced to The Secret Doctrine by H.P. Blavatsky and went on to read The Serpent Power by Arthur Avalon and listened to many audio cassettes by Geoffrey Hodgson about Laya Yoga and the ways to raise Kundalini. I practiced all of that for quite a while.

About the same time, I studied the Tao Teh Ching and the teachings of Osho (Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh) but I never became an 'Orange Person'. The fact that Osho owned 20+ Mercedes Benz, wore gold Cartier watches and taught 'sex yoga' was enough to finally turn me off from the whole thing.

I was at a crisis point of spiritualism vs materialism, so I did what the only self-respecting Sadhaka would do....I joined ISKCON and became a Krishna devotee...meanwhile, I would return to Bali, Indonesia 3-4 times a year because my parents were part-owners in a hotel chain over there.

In Bali, I learned about the Agama and Tantra tradition and gained a new found appreciation and love for Lord Shiva. This had never really left me anyway.

It did not mesh to well with myself being a member of ISKCON and after 3 years, I finally left ISKCON with all my records and tapes...Benediction Moon, The Radha Krishna Temple Album and "Radio Ram" which was a radio program parodying materialistic culture.

I started studying the Upanishads in depth (basically the only Hindu Scriptures that ever appealed to me and I could totally relate to), the Shiva Purana and also poems and writings from the Lingayat saints like Basavana, Allama Prabhu and Mahadevi Akka. I also attended Hatha Yoga classes twice a week.

By this time, I was 19 years of age.

It was at my Yoga class, I was to meet my future husband...he was the Yoga teacher. He was 20 years my senior and an Indian man of Fijian birth. He was a qualified Yoga Teacher, who had studied under Swami Shivananda of the DLS in Rishikesh, with Swami Chidananda being his personal Guru. It was at the time, I studied "Asana, Pranayama, Mudra, Bandha" by Swami Satyananda and stayed in the Satyananda Ashram in Australia for about 6 months. I learned a lot during my time there.

Being impressed by my flexibility and knowledge, I soon became 'teacher's pet' and I started seeing the teacher outside class.

We were married when I was 20 years old.

After that and according to my Dharma, I fulfilled the role as a dutiful Hindu wife and he stopped with the Yoga Classes and started performing ceremonies and Pujas...becoming a Pujari and learning Jyotish.

I also studied this with him and gained my own qualifications as a Yoga teacher in the process. It was at this time, I learned how to perform the Shiva and Devi Pujas, how to do Hawan, how to play the harmonium and dholuk and I taught Sanskrit to children. I even designed my own children's colouring books. I was given Mantra Diksha by Swami Chidananda in 1998...a mantra in praise of goddess Gauri.

After 15 years of marriage, things had changed a lot between us. We had 2 children (2 girls) and he was never home to help me raise them and hardly ever came home full stop! He also became obsessed over Puja donations and always kept on putting me down and humiliating me in front of others and would start abusing the children if they did not get top marks at school and such...enough was enough. We got divorced back in 2000.

For close on 12 years, I rebelled against the whole thing. I became atheist, ate meat, drank alcohol, took drugs, slept around and forgot my 'previous life' even existed. I was disillusioned and dissatisfied....I wanted no part of it.

Then, last year, I had a life-transforming experience when I 'inadvertently' stumbled upon Kalabhairavashtakam and somehow, that whole 'End of the World due to the Mayan Calender theory' made me revisit the works of Sri Yukteshwar Giri and his calculations of the Yugas in accordance with the Procession of the Equinoxes...then, just for fun, I listened to 'Awake In The Cosmic Dream' by Swami Yogananda (which I hadn't heard in over 25 years)...then, on the 6th December, 2012, I had Darshana of Kala Bhairava on His Holy Appearance Day - without me even knowing it was...It was also the appearance day of Lord Krishna...coincidence much?

I was reborn then.

Now, I continue to meditate, worship and do Hatha Yoga and right now, I am reading the works of Prabhat Ranjan Sarkar (Shrii Shrii Anandamurti ) and learning about Ananda Marga...and posting on here.

I have great love for Kala Bhairava (Lord Shiva) and still believe in a lot of my old Buddhist teachings.

So, that's all about me.

Aum Namah Shivaya

silence_speaks
19 August 2013, 03:14 AM
Friends,
:)
what I am presenting here is not against scriptures or shastras.
:)
its against common ideas about meditation practices.

here is what Yoga Vasishta says :

उपविश्योपविश्यैकचित्तकेन मुहुर्मुहुः।
न शक्यते मनो जेतुँ विन युक्तिम्-अनिन्दिताम्॥ [Laghu yoga vasishta 28.126]

By repeatedly bringing the mind back to One-pointedness, it cannot be conquered unless one is equipped with faultless reasoning [scriptural reasoning in the context]

here again is what Panchadasi says:
panchadasi VI - 283:
vairagyoparatii puurne bodhastu pratipadhyate |
pasya tasya na mokshosti punya-lokastapopalat ||

[without bodha (knowledge) even perfect detachment and complete withdrawal from worldly activities cannot lead to liberation. such a man gets rebirth in a higher lokha because of his great merit]

284:
puurne bodhe tadanyau dvayo pratibaddhau yada tada |
moksho vinishchitaH kintu drustaduHkam na nashyati ||

[On the other hand a person with knowledge, even if the other two (detachment and withdrawal) are wanting, is sure to have liberation though his visible suffering may not end ]

So this is precisely what I am "illustrating"
without Bodha ... Self Knowledge ... properly established ... there is no scope for proper meditation ... withdrawal etc become meaningless.

Love!
Silence

Mana
19 August 2013, 03:35 AM
Namaste Necromancer,

Thank you for sharing a of your history; you do highlight some of the inherent problems in the schools of knowledge. The vedanga, should help us to understand the Vedic wisdom, it is essentially for that. Patanjali's yoga aphorisms, should aid us in best choosing our paths and better practising our dharma. Your 7th lord is in 9th, has caused you some trouble here. A good jyotiṣa would not have recommended marriage to you at such a young age. Having studied a little Jyotiṣ; I wonder, are you aware of the signification of your particular AtmaKaraka; which is Jupiter? ... " Jupiter as AK indicates that the native should always respect the Guru, husband and care for children."
I believe this to be very relevant to your path, in recollection of my first ever communication on HDF with you; could this be a source of the leaking roof? We must burn our karma; this can not be run away from. Or it is quite simply worse in another incarnation.
I shall now duck out of this thread as speak of Jyotiṣ is clearly a derailment; linear threads can be tricky when one sees underlying links and junctions inherent in everything; I guess I'm not really "apt" in the ways of web forum etiquette just yet. :)


Kind regards.

silence_speaks
19 August 2013, 04:55 AM
So Friends,
:) Returning to the main topic of this discussion. I would like to summarize my observations till now, before proceeding further:

1. Its far more important to become " meditative " first. Meditation happens automatically when this is the case. Its like, if i want to sleep, i definitely need to make the bed ready and have the temperature etc set correctly ... but far more important than all these is "how sleepy I feel", If I am sleepy, even if the bed is not ready, I may just fall asleep.

similarly, if i am meditative, even if i do not have a mantra, even if i am not able to sit in a proper asana ... everything falls in place.
if i am not meditative, i may be sitting in the best of the places in padmasana, nothing works out.

2. Its more important to address the root cause of distraction or agitation in mind ... because once this is solved, we will be in a position to remain established in meditation more comfortably.

3. Any method, is like bringing back the mind again and again to a stilled state or a state of awareness ... the root question is really why it is getting into conflicting or agitated state. And here we have taken an example: if I come home to find my room is filled with water, I would definitely clean my room, but also need to identify the leaks and block them.
so here I made an important point that these two are different:
approaches to make the mind calm are like methods to clean the room.
how do I seal the leaks that cause mental turmoil ?

4. Regarding, how would I seal the leaks that cause mental turmoil, I also observed that total satisfaction or sense of fulfillment would automatically settle the mind because the mind is no more craving for anything. A non-craving mind is ever "Here and Now"... one need not bring it here to the present , its automatically in the present.

W.r.t I mentioned that its important to somehow ensure that our sense of fulfillment / satisfaction is not robbed by any external circumstances.
Also, its not disturbed by anything.


5. I have given scriptural references from Yoga Vasishta and Vedanta Panchadasi to show that my method is totally in agreement with the scriptural perspective.
However if someone accepts what I said just coz it comes from a particular saint, thats secondary knowledge. This vision, is a Darshana... even as I explain it , one can get it ... provided one has that kind of sraddha/openness. But if one does not have this, one would not even be having the patience to continue ... just as in this case:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/532166_463664856990052_761655368_n.jpg


We will continue to explore this subject ... slowly and soon ... we will see how we will discover our own inner completeness and would remain in meditation 24 7. I call this living in meditation.

Love!
Silence

Necromancer
19 August 2013, 04:59 AM
Namaste Necromancer,

Thank you for sharing a of your history; you do highlight some of the inherent problems in the schools of knowledge. The vedanga, should help us to understand the Vedic wisdom, it is essentially for that. Patanjali's yoga aphorisms, should aid us in best choosing our paths and better practising our dharma. Your 7th lord is in 9th, has caused you some trouble here. A good jyotiṣa would not have recommended marriage to you at such a young age. Having studied a little Jyotiṣ; I wonder, are you aware of the signification of your particular AtmaKaraka; which is Jupiter? ... " Jupiter as AK indicates that the native should always respect the Guru, husband and care for children."
I believe this to be very relevant to your path, in recollection of my first ever communication on HDF with you; could this be a source of the leaking roof? We must burn our karma; this can not be run away from. Or it is quite simply worse in another incarnation.
I shall now duck out of this thread as speak of Jyotiṣ is clearly a derailment; linear threads can be tricky when one sees underlying links and junctions inherent in everything; I guess I'm not really "apt" in the ways of web forum etiquette just yet. :)


Kind regards.
Namaste and thank you, Mana.

A lot of what I learned about Jyotish back then, I have subsequently forgotten about. Guru in the 9th has caused me many problems - but not as much as a retrograde Shani in Pisces in the 3rd.

All I can remember at that time, was that our charts were totally incompatible and yes, I shouldn't have got married so early (even my parents were against it and I married against their will).

I still had a lot of learning and personal sadhana to do before I finally settled down...fully realising now, that after many years of practice and the Lord choosing me at such a young, tender age I probably would have never got married!

We both ignored this (and it was all 'after the fact' anyway), but we were in love and to us, at the time, love>planets.

Love was something that 'conquered all' and through the Grace of the Divine, any bad things could be made good through love.

It's amazing our marriage lasted for 15 years!

I knew it was my duty to respect my husband and raise the children, but I couldn't keep this consistent...not after my husband had changed from a kind, supportive and caring person (which I could worship) into an absent, greedy, arrogant and selfish git (which I could not).

I am facing a year of 'Saturn Return' this year - so, things should start to improve along these lines.

The cause of my 'leaky roof' is that I am still too controlling and impatient, indulging in a few left over samskaras that I'm much better off without.

I don't try to control others, but I like to be 'the mistress of my own fate' and I don't always give the 'benefit of the doubt' to my Lord.

Thus, I am stuck in the 'chicken and egg syndrome' - will realisation of the absolute finally free me from my ties? or must I free myself from bondage to realise the nature of the absolute?

That there, above, is the cause of my 'leaky roof'.

I am not good with 'internet etiquette' either and just call it as I see it or how it is, leaving the reader to try and make sense of it all.

For that, I also humbly apologise.

Aum Namah Shivaya

silence_speaks
19 August 2013, 05:12 AM
A CASE STUDY:
So dear friends,
here is an interesting case study.
I'll tell you a story:



Once Siva and Parvati were on their world tour and they see Santakumara seated in a small hut. Parvati immediately notices the splendor and the grace with which he was conducting. She asks Siva and in reply Siva tells her that he is a Great Jnani. Mother immediately says that we will go and give him some boon. Siva tells her "See, he is a Jnani. He does not care whether you go to him or not. He is totally unattached and treats everything as unreal. Its a waste of time". Still she goes to him and says "My son! I am really impressed by your Jnana. Siva himself calls you a Jnani. Please seek some boon". Santakumara says "Mother, I have nothing to ask. Thank you for the offer".
But Parvati does not agree. In order to please her,...he says "Mother, please grant that this needle , when I stich my shirt, should pass from one side to the other". She was a little perplexed and says "Thats not a wish. Ask something else". He looks up and says "Mother please bless that the sun should set in another 6 hours". Mother gets angry "You seem to be really proud!"

Santakumara says "Mother, its not pride, its actually lack of ego. I am just not able to think of anything else. I need nothing".

She says "Ok, since you do not seek a boon, ill give you a curse... You seem very proud , may you become a camel"
And so he becomes a camel.

A couple of years later, Siva and Parvati were passing by the same route when she sees the camel roaming about in the same premises. She goes to Santakumara and says "Child, I think you have had enough of this camel life, I'll now convert you back to your human form"

Santa kumara says "Mother, Thank you for the offer, but this upadhi [form] seems to be very comfortable. Earlier, I had to cook food, now I can eat any leaves here and there. Earlier I had to wear some dress, now I am fine without it. This is very comfortable, please allow me to continue thus"


So I have an open question for the forum members : Can we look at life from this attitude of Sanata Kumara ? What happens when we do this ? When we look at life this way, and suppose we sit down for meditation... will the mind move or will it remain where it is ?

comments welcome.

Love!
Silence

smaranam
19 August 2013, 06:22 AM
Thus, I am stuck in the 'chicken and egg syndrome' - will realisation of the absolute finally free me from my ties? or must I free myself from bondage to realise the nature of the absolute?

That there, above, is the cause of my 'leaky roof'.
Aum Namah Shivaya

Namaste Necromancer,

This is what Shri KRshNa says: (first BG 15.3 and then BG 15.4)

BG 15.1 (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/15/1/en): It is said that there is an imperishable banyan tree that has its roots upward and its branches down and whose leaves are the Vedic hymns. One who knows this tree is the knower of the Vedas.
BG 15.2 (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/15/2/en): The branches of this tree extend downward and upward, nourished by the three modes of material nature. The twigs are the objects of the senses. This tree also has roots going down, and these are bound to the fruitive actions of human society.

BG15.3
na (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/n/na) rūpam (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/r/rupam) asyeha tathopalabhyate
nānto na (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/n/na) cādir na (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/n/na) ca (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/c/ca) sampratiṣṭhā (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/s/sampratistha)
aśvattham (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/a/asvattham) enaḿ (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/e/enam) su (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/s/su)-virūḍha (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/v/virudha)-mūlam (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/m/mulam)
asańga (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/a/asanga)-śastreṇa (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/s/sastrena) dṛḍhena (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/d/drdhena) chittvā (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/c/chittva)

The real form of this tree cannot be perceived in this world. No one can understand where it ends, where it begins, or where its foundation is. But with determination one must cut down this strongly rooted tree with the weapon of detachment (asanga-shastreNa).

BG 15.4
tataḥ (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/t/tatah) padaḿ (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/p/padam) tat (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/t/tat) parimārgitavyaḿ (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/p/parimargitavyam)
yasmin (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/y/yasmin) gatā (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/g/gata) na (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/n/na) nivartanti (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/n/nivartanti) bhūyaḥ (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/b/bhuyah)
tam (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/t/tam) eva (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/e/eva) cādyaḿ puruṣaḿ (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/p/purusam) prapadye (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/p/prapadye)
yataḥ (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/y/yatah) pravṛttiḥ (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/p/pravrttih) prasṛtā (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/p/prasrta) purāṇī (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/p/purani)

Thereafter, one must seek that place from which, having gone, one never returns, and there surrender to that Adi Purusha - primevial original One, Being (Supreme Personality of Godhead) from whom everything began and from whom everything has extended since time immemorial.

(Note tatah and Adyam purusham prapadye)

This is not chicken and egg. KRshNa tells what the sequence should be.
You have to first free yourself from bondage in the sense, the attitude has to change - the tendency to be falsely feel bound - false perception. Thereafter, seek that param padam and surrender to the Adi Purusha there.

There are no ties. Nothing is happening.

So
STEP 1: Anartha nivRtti - nivRtti (retirement) from anartha (meaningless, pointless, flaws, vices, faulty thinking, broken 'interface')
STEP 2: Seek the param padam

This is what silence_speaks is also saying all along and this is what I told Aschooper too - first solve the problems in thought and attitude - and for this, Bhagvad Gita to the rescue.

Sorry to interrupt, just remembered BG 15.3,4 in that sequence.

_/\_
om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~

smaranam
19 August 2013, 06:42 AM
P.S.: Incidentally, personal experience aligns perfectly with what KRshNa is saying - first 15.3, then 15.4. Hand in glove. Amazing isn't it? ShAstra is shAstra, that is why it is shAstra eternally.

Necromancer
19 August 2013, 07:23 AM
Namaste Necromancer,

This is what Shri KRshNa says: (first BG 15.3 and then BG 15.4)

BG 15.1 (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/15/1/en): It is said that there is an imperishable banyan tree that has its roots upward and its branches down and whose leaves are the Vedic hymns. One who knows this tree is the knower of the Vedas.
BG 15.2 (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/15/2/en): The branches of this tree extend downward and upward, nourished by the three modes of material nature. The twigs are the objects of the senses. This tree also has roots going down, and these are bound to the fruitive actions of human society.

BG15.3
na (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/n/na) rūpam (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/r/rupam) asyeha tathopalabhyate
nānto na (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/n/na) cādir na (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/n/na) ca (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/c/ca) sampratiṣṭhā (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/s/sampratistha)
aśvattham (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/a/asvattham) enaḿ (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/e/enam) su (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/s/su)-virūḍha (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/v/virudha)-mūlam (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/m/mulam)
asańga (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/a/asanga)-śastreṇa (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/s/sastrena) dṛḍhena (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/d/drdhena) chittvā (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/c/chittva)

The real form of this tree cannot be perceived in this world. No one can understand where it ends, where it begins, or where its foundation is. But with determination one must cut down this strongly rooted tree with the weapon of detachment (asanga-shastreNa).

BG 15.4
tataḥ (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/t/tatah) padaḿ (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/p/padam) tat (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/t/tat) parimārgitavyaḿ (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/p/parimargitavyam)
yasmin (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/y/yasmin) gatā (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/g/gata) na (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/n/na) nivartanti (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/n/nivartanti) bhūyaḥ (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/b/bhuyah)
tam (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/t/tam) eva (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/e/eva) cādyaḿ puruṣaḿ (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/p/purusam) prapadye (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/p/prapadye)
yataḥ (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/y/yatah) pravṛttiḥ (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/p/pravrttih) prasṛtā (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/p/prasrta) purāṇī (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/p/purani)

Thereafter, one must seek that place from which, having gone, one never returns, and there surrender to that Adi Purusha - primevial original One, Being (Supreme Personality of Godhead) from whom everything began and from whom everything has extended since time immemorial.

(Note tatah and Adyam purusham prapadye)

This is not chicken and egg. KRshNa tells what the sequence should be.
You have to first free yourself from bondage in the sense, the attitude has to change - the tendency to be falsely feel bound - false perception. Thereafter, seek that param padam and surrender to the Adi Purusha there.

There are no ties. Nothing is happening.

So
STEP 1: Anartha nivRtti - nivRtti (retirement) from anartha (meaningless, pointless, flaws, vices, faulty thinking, broken 'interface')
STEP 2: Seek the param padam

This is what silence_speaks is also saying all along and this is what I told Aschooper too - first solve the problems in thought and attitude - and for this, Bhagvad Gita to the rescue.

Sorry to interrupt, just remembered BG 15.3,4 in that sequence.

_/\_
om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~
Namaste.

Thank you so much for reminding me of the Banyan Tree analogy...it's been a long time...


Thereafter, one must seek that place from which, having gone, one never returns, and there surrender to that Adi Purusha - primevial original One, Being (Supreme Personality of Godhead) from whom everything began and from whom everything has extended since time immemoria

...and therein lies the sad and sorry tale.

After 'going there' I want to return, or else I don't want to 'go there' in the first place.

It's like death...it's unknown, unfathomable and like I said before, I'm terrified of it. I'm scared of losing 'myself' in the process and flaws and all, I rather like who I am.

It's like Draupadi clinging on to her last piece of Sari before she raises both hands to Lord Krishna.

Yes, it is all about surrender and I can surrender all but the act of surrender itself.

The Lord can do anything to me...except one thing - take me to that 'place of no return'. I am not ready for that.

For most Yogis and people on HDF, they would be happy to get this chance...that's what the goal is.

However I run from it because while ever I can come back, I am 'safe' I am 'comfortable' because I am in control!

Yes, Shiva is in control of my life...except for that one detail there...and I have often prayed to Him and said 'when I am dying okay? then do it...because there's no 'coming back' from that anyway - not in any sense that I would know it or understand it anyway'.

There's that 'brick wall' I mentioned earlier.

I'm happy with God being God and Me being Me....and chanting:

Aum Namah Shivaya

silence_speaks
19 August 2013, 07:36 AM
Dear Necromancer,
:)



Yes, it is all about surrender and I can surrender all but the act of surrender itself.


In my view you do not surrender.
you recognize that you are already in the embrace of God and so
there is nothing really that's yours.

I'll tell you something.One day, I was meditating requesting God to show himself up to me. I was crying for him for a few days ... almost till 2 in the night .. asking him to appear and then one day i sat down, in meditation ... closed eyes and requested mentally that he should show himself up to me. I was trying all things to get his Darshan ... everything...

and suddenly, God said to me ... voicelessly ... Why don't you recognize my presence now ? God may appear in form ... but to convince whom? My mind ! Even if he does not appear in form, is he not THERE ? HERE , NOW ?

Do I have to "Reach" Him ? Have I not Already reached ?
Who wants to feel that he has not yet reached and keep "Seeking" ? Is this not just ego satisfaction , in a way ?

Please ponder!
Love!
Silence

smaranam
19 August 2013, 08:03 AM
...and suddenly, God said to me ... voicelessly ... Why don't you recognize my presence now ?
...you recognize that you are already in the embrace of God and so there is nothing really that's yours.

Haribol!
________________

"Om GovindAya namah:" - a poem

My dear Lord, nothing is mine , everything is Yours.
You are my Knowledge and my Wealth [Tvam eva vidya , dravinam Tvam eva].
You are my Everything [Tvam eva sarvam mama Deva Deva]
om keshavAya namah: (svAhA)
You created me , didn't You ? I am just Your instrument. So please order me and i shall do as You say.
om nArAyaNAya namah:
Here , take this. My mind, intelligence , whatever that is, is all really Yours. You gave it all to me.
om mAdhavAya namah:
All my supposed abilities and strengths are Your opulences. Here, take them.
om govindAya namah:
All worldly things You have given me belong to You. So please accept them.
om vishNave namah:
What am i doing ? "Giving" everything back to You ? It was never mine in the first place !!
om madhusUdanAya namah:
Not a blade of grass can move without Your Will.
om trivikramAya namah:
This that i am scribbling is also really fuelled by Your Mercy.
om vAmanAya namah:
BUT THIS IS NOTHING COMPARED TO THE BIGGEST TREASURE YOU HAVE GIVEN ME:
om shridharAya namah:
Its Your infinite GRACE and kindness that
om hRshikeshAya namah:
YOU MAKE MY HOME AND HEART YOUR ABODE,
om padmanAbhAya namah:
and YOUR ABODE AND HEART MY HOME.
om dAmodarAya namah:
He Hrishikesha Govinda Madhava Madhusudana,
i do not know how to be
Therefore i surrender myself unto Thee.
om vAsudevAya namah:

~ ~

-- KrushNAli
9:30 am, June 20, 2008
_____________
NOTE: In a book summarizing the bhAgavat, Swami Chinmayananda says that the word "namah:" is a distortion of the ancient "idam na mama." The Rshis would offer oblations into the sacrificial fire (yadnya) with the consciousness - "this that I offer in yadnya is not mine." This poem stems from that.

silence_speaks
19 August 2013, 08:54 AM
Dear smaranam,
:)



NOTE: In a book summarizing the bhAgavat, Swami Chinmayananda says that the word "namah:" is a distortion of the ancient "idam na mama." The Rshis would offer oblations into the sacrificial fire (yadnya) with the consciousness - "this that I offer in yadnya is not mine." This poem stems from that.


Yes. I have read that from a different source :) also.

Thats a very good way to say that.
now one can see what om naham sivaya or om namo narayanaya can be appreciated as.

Love!
Silence

Necromancer
19 August 2013, 09:11 AM
Dear Necromancer,
:)



In my view you do not surrender.
you recognize that you are already in the embrace of God and so
there is nothing really that's yours.

I'll tell you something.One day, I was meditating requesting God to show himself up to me. I was crying for him for a few days ... almost till 2 in the night .. asking him to appear and then one day i sat down, in meditation ... closed eyes and requested mentally that he should show himself up to me. I was trying all things to get his Darshan ... everything...

and suddenly, God said to me ... voicelessly ... Why don't you recognize my presence now ? God may appear in form ... but to convince whom? My mind ! Even if he does not appear in form, is he not THERE ? HERE , NOW ?

Do I have to "Reach" Him ? Have I not Already reached ?
Who wants to feel that he has not yet reached and keep "Seeking" ? Is this not just ego satisfaction , in a way ?

Please ponder!
Love!
Silence
Namaste.

That's a beautiful story. <3

I am often/always in communion with Lord Shiva and most of the time, He just laughs and scolds me in a gentle, loving but firm way...sometimes I feel like he is making fun of my misery.

"Why be afraid of such a beautiful and wonderful thing?

Don't you realise you are only running from your own shadow there?

Don't think of it as 'you merging into Me' or 'You becoming Me'...think of it as Me becoming you!

I will never let you lose your individuality or personality, so don't be scared of that. You will still be 'you' but it will be you + Me then.

I have already shown you how...many times.

Your 'leaky roof' is that you are not afraid of the 'unknown'. You are afraid of change. There's a difference.

Why do you think I put Saturn in your third house? So that one day, you may finally understand this...realise that all change doesn't necessarily have to be bad or even profoundly different. Change is just what it says.

On your end, there's no 'surrender' or even 'becoming'. There's no goal to reach and nothing to strive for. You have already put in all the hard yards...the rest is easy now.

Remember 'The Goose Is Out'? Guess what? there was no Goose.

You are the silly Goose, trapped within that bottle of your own mind. You created the Goose and the Bottle through your own fear.

I love you and I am you. I have been all along. It's not surrender. It's acceptance".

At this point, I am vomiting, have a splitting headache, nausea, chills and feeling decidedly unwell.

I am assured this is a natural reaction which will pass in due time. I have been advised to go and rest up for a while now....that's enough for today.

Aum Klim Kalikaye Namah.

silence_speaks
19 August 2013, 09:20 AM
Dear Necromancer,
:) Please take rest.

Dear Smaranam and Necromancer,
:) Please note that there are two aspects to it: kartutva and bhoktutvam.
even if you take yourself to be an "enjoyer" of that peace thats a problem.
you are neither the doer nor the experiencer.
you are the Being... I AM,

infact there is no "I" at all ...!!
This recognition is liberation.

Love!
Silence

Mana
19 August 2013, 10:00 AM
Namaste Necromancer,

Are you certain of this?


For most Yogis and people on HDF, they would be happy to get this chance...that's what the goal is.

The ultimate success may be considered by some to be solving the puzzle set by our past karma, decreed by our nature, that of our current birth our kundali; to achieve a clear understanding of the present, one need be detached from it, yet still be in it.
Running away is yet another binding, another attachment; as smaranam has so colourfully pointed out. :)

3rd lord in 3rd is a nice placement; I am not sure how this affects Guru upachaya though.


Kind regards.

silence_speaks
19 August 2013, 12:38 PM
Dear Mana,
:)


The ultimate success may be considered by some to be solving the puzzle set by our past karma


There is no puzzle set my past karma.
yes Running away is bondage as much as running after something is.

Love!
Silence

Mana
19 August 2013, 12:53 PM
Dear silence speaks,

I am referring to the wheel of samskaras, ones accumulated karma; the baggage with which we are all born; if there was none, we would not have reincarnated ...

Kind regards.

silence_speaks
19 August 2013, 01:11 PM
Dear Mana,
:) There is a (apparent) baggage of samskaras. But that poses no puzzle which needs to be solved for your enlightenment.
liberation is due to Knowledge and knowledge is gained by study of scriptures under a guru who can show you the truth and give you the darshan.
Perhaps prarabdha may prohibit someone from reaching such a guru etc.
But as such no "puzzle" of karma needs to be addressed in my view.

Love!
Silence

yajvan
19 August 2013, 01:17 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté


Dear Yajvan,
:) When you speak like "From whom is this coming", "is this from a acharya who is established in Being" ?
When you ask this question ...

you are trying to get a knowledge "YOU CAN BELIEVE" ...
And your faith depends on "YOUR BELIEF ON A PARTICULAR MASTER"
This is purely secondary knowledge ... isn't it ?

Scriptures are called "Darshana Shastras". They are "Pramanas".
When they are "Revealed" ... "One should get it --- the VISION, the DARSHANA"
unfortunately, due to incompetent teachers people keep seeking secondary means to knowledge.

Take this sequence...
"You are Atma" ... ok , so who says this ? Ramana ... oh! Fine !I am indeed Atma then ... Ramana was really great!
and the student learnt "NOTHING"! Life goes on the same way !
This is the problem.
Love!
Silence


Verification of knowledge that is impeccable comes in a form of 3 :

śāstra or āgama - a body of teaching (in general) , scripture , science authoritative in nature ; sacred book or composition of divine authority
ācārya or guru - " knowing or teaching the ācāra or rules " , a spiritual guide or teacher
vicāra - (one's own) reflection , examination , investigation It is that simple ... when these 3 align then knowledge/truth is considered impeccable... It is from here that I ( and several others) have been asking for the audit trail to your offers. When there is less then 3 , then one's personal experience waivers a bit and the knowledge is not considered whole (pūrṅā ) as yet.

We stand on the shoulders of the wise... others think they may have this knowledge but are deluded on what they speak.


... there is nothing new under the sun.


iti śivaṁ


1. pūrṅā = filled, finished , accomplished

silence_speaks
19 August 2013, 01:25 PM
Dear Yajvan,
:)
Its Sruthi - Yukti - Anubhavam.
Not Acharya's Greatness etc. How do you know whether someone is an acharya at all ?

what I speak should not be against Sruthi.
Should not be illogical... should not violate scriptural reasoning ... Yukti.
and Anubhavam ... is not experience but consequent being ...
it should enable you to consequently abide as Self... provided the first two are appreciated.

Shastras are pramanas by themselves. if what I am saying is as per shastras and as per yukti ... it should reveal and leave you in abidance ... provided you are sincere and ready.


Love!
Silence

Mana
19 August 2013, 01:26 PM
Dear silence speaks,

The puzzle is the forms of the underlying substructure, the swirls and the waves, the repeating patters and impressions in universal conciousness; having nothing to do with the self at all; Anugraha is proof enough for me of this.

The love of this puzzle is Jyotiṣ :)

Kind regards.

silence_speaks
19 August 2013, 01:29 PM
Dear Yajvan,
:) I have given enough quotes and references to show that my view point is exactly as per Vedanta Panchadasi & YV !
That was only coz you asked.

:)

Love!
Silence

Mana
19 August 2013, 01:39 PM
Namaste Yajvan,


We stand on the shoulders of the wise... others think they may have this knowledge but are deluded on what they speak.


... there is nothing new under the sun.

Never a truer word spoken, an inevitability of the differentiation of knowledge and the illusion of linear time, we are often lead to believe something to be our own thought, when it is simply the gradual process of the digestion of acquired knowledge or an other subtle influence.

A blessing it is to be guided by the ṛṣi!
And what a curious thing she is, time; especially her rhythms and other effects ...

Kind regards.

yajvan
19 August 2013, 03:10 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

yet, we alight on 92 posts and I am still not clear on the explanation to the 'right' way to meditate.


So, let me be so bold as to offer what the seers tell us:

The Self (ātman) is svatāsiddha is self-revealed, self-known on a personal -subjective -intimate level. One can look for inferences , ideas, pointers - all are good to appreciate this level of Being. Yet at the end of the day the Self reveals itSelf to itSelf, so says the upaniṣad-s¹.
What then is our responsibility ? to prepare, make ready.

Any thing other then this is time just being taken up on conjecture.


iti śivaṁ

1. Two upaniṣad-s call this out : kaṭhopaniṣad (1.2.23) & muṇḍukopaniṣad (3.2.2)

Mana
19 August 2013, 04:02 PM
Namaste Yajvan,

Thank you for your insight and addition to this thread, your knowledge and timing are perfect; I shall admit however to experiencing the briefest of concerns that you might proceed to explain the "left" way to meditate, we are counting upon another 100 posts to cover that ... :) I jest!

Thank you for highlighting the Upanishads, I have a copy of the Mundaka Upanishad translated by Swami Muni Narayana Prasad, which I have not yet studied; I think now might be a good time for me to do so, I find it helps me to remember well when I read at just the right moment.

My experience tells me that to be unprepared for such is very unwise; as it occurs to many; destroying the lives of those who are not practised or prepared. That is my personal belief (seen from Britain and France). I love Sanātana Dharma for the aspect it casts upon this, an understanding of the finer more delicate nuances of life which tower above any Western understanding.



Any thing other then this is time just being taken up on conjecture.

It is rather pleasant to share ones discoveries (even if they are rather old hat), I find that it can be very exciting, as one establishes a level of Bhakthi for ones chosen subject; maintaining that energy seems to be half the trick for successful learning, for one who is not of the steadiest pace.
My local entourage, prefer to chat about *** or **** whilst getting drunk; so as you can imagine; I find the company here most refreshing.


Kind regards.

yajvan
19 August 2013, 06:18 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté




Namaste Yajvan,

Thank you for your insight and addition to this thread, your knowledge and timing are perfect; I shall admit however to experiencing the briefest of concerns that you might proceed to explain the "left" way to meditate, we are counting upon another 100 posts to cover that ... .
A footnote to the overall conversation:

Some practices call out vāma¹ mārga ( left ) ; others dakṣiṇā¹ mārga (right ), and still others a mixture of both in which the vīrya¹ can attend to. But because the Supreme is everywhere to be found, then it suggests dikbala¹ or dikpāla¹, i.e. all directions should be possible based upon the candidate.


iti śivaṁ

words

vāma - left , not right , being or situated on the left side
mārga - proper course; a way , manner method , custom , usage
dakṣiṇā - right or southern ; southern being on the right side of a person looking eastward
vīrya - hero, but suggest the accomplished one
dikbala and dikpāla …
dik is from diś to point out , hence we apply this to mean directional.
The second definition of this diś means quarter or region pointed at , direction , hence the cardinal points.
And we can use the word diśā - direction , region , quarter or point of the compass .
Cardinal points which we know:
prācī , east
dakṣiṇā , south
pratici , west
udīcī , north
An additional 4 i.e. 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th are the 'between' directions i.e. NE, SE, SW, NW
And what of up and down or the 9th & 10th ?

the 9th is adhas which means down, yet it sometimes is considered tiryañc. Why this is used I am not sure because it means 'going horizontally' the 10th is ūrdhvam - anything placed above or higher, therefore upwards
pāl - to watch , guard , protect , defend , rule , govern + dik = diś = means quarter or region , direction , hence the cardinal points ; so dik+pāl to guard/protect and defend in all directions
In jyotiṣh we also use a word dikbala - which is then directional strength i.e. dik + bala power , strength , might , vigour , force. Some write digbala. Yet dig = diś = dik and this allows the definition to hold firm with dik

silence_speaks
19 August 2013, 11:16 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

yet, we alight on 92 posts and I am still not clear on the explanation to the 'right' way to meditate.


So, let me be so bold as to offer what the seers tell us:

The Self (ātman) is svatāsiddha is self-revealed, self-known on a personal -subjective -intimate level. One can look for inferences , ideas, pointers - all are good to appreciate this level of Being. Yet at the end of the day the Self reveals itSelf to itSelf, so says the upaniṣad-s¹.
What then is our responsibility ? to prepare, make ready.

Any thing other then this is time just being taken up on conjecture.


iti śivaṁ

1. Two upaniṣad-s call this out : kaṭhopaniṣad (1.2.23) & muṇḍukopaniṣad (3.2.2)




Dear yajvan,
:) Namasthe!



yet, we alight on 92 posts and I am still not clear on the explanation to the 'right' way to meditate.


Have you read what I have written by far ?



The Self (ātman) is svatāsiddha is self-revealed, self-known on a personal -subjective -intimate level. One can look for inferences , ideas, pointers - all are good to appreciate this level of Being. Yet at the end of the day the Self reveals itSelf to itSelf, so says the upaniṣad-s¹.
What then is our responsibility ? to prepare, make ready.


Yajvan ... this is not what is said. The verse says
"The Self is neither gained by mere recitation of vedas , nor by mere memory, nor by mere study of many disciplines of knowledge. The person who chooses to know the self gains it. Then Self reveals its nature to that person."

Self reveals itself to itself ?? It says "यमेवैष वृणुते तेन लभ्यः"
He who chooses.
One has to make that choice to know.

You have to choose to live a liberated life. No matter how much knowledge one has, if one chooses to consider oneself as ignorant one, one remains so.

Please read the Shankara Bhasya corresponding to this verse.

And please do not be too impatient... give me the benefit of doubt ... when i started a thread like this and am able to convey some important points ... give me the benefit of doubt that I have something valuable to convey and just be patient ... keep reading. Patience is an important spiritual quality too. it can be 192 posts also ...
:) just see how many posts you have written by far :D so people can read 192 or 200 posts ... not a problem ... particularly when it conveys the truth step by step and in a systematic way.

Love!
Silence

Necromancer
19 August 2013, 11:18 PM
Namaste, all.

I too, am wondering what the point and purpose of this whole thread is.

If there's a conclusion or a finale to this line of reasoning...a 'punchline to the joke' as it were, I must have missed it somewhere.

After all my self-inquiry and ponderings, yes, I am 'better off' as it were by Silence Speak's teachings, but still there's nothing I can sink my teeth into...there's no 'right way to meditate'.

It's just another discussion on Karma, Dharma and the nature of Brahman.

If there's a climax to this tale, I wish the OP would hurry up and give it. lol

Aum Namah Shivaya

silence_speaks
19 August 2013, 11:25 PM
Dear Necromancer



After all my self-inquiry and ponderings, yes, I am 'better off' as it were by Silence Speak's teachings, but still there's nothing I can sink my teeth into...there's no 'right way to meditate'.
:) Namasthe!

If you are "BETTER OFF" after this discussion... it means its already sinking !
:)
Don't worry ... give it a little more time... it will sink.

92 posts is nothing ... of these 92, i might have written only 10 posts that contain teaching stuff ... so don't be in so much of a hurry to dismiss something ... and that to when it helps u be "better off" !
:)
LOL!
thats why i posted that photo earlier in this thread.
Thats for all those who are too impatient !!

we are ready to write thousands of posts ... and yet ... 90+ posts of which only 10 odd posts that contain teaching that too with lot of digressions ... and yet one is able to get partially what is taught ! isnt this an achievement ?

you are "BETTER OFF" !
:) That itself means its sinking ... and it will take over...
give it time ...
slowly...

Love!
Silence

Necromancer
19 August 2013, 11:55 PM
Dear Necromancer

:) Namasthe!

If you are "BETTER OFF" after this discussion... it means its already sinking !
:)
Don't worry ... give it a little more time... it will sink.

92 posts is nothing ... of these 92, i might have written only 10 posts that contain teaching stuff ... so don't be in so much of a hurry to dismiss something ... and that to when it helps u be "better off" !
:)
LOL!
thats why i posted that photo earlier in this thread.
Thats for all those who are too impatient !!

we are ready to write thousands of posts ... and yet ... 90+ posts of which only 10 odd posts that contain teaching that too with lot of digressions ... and yet one is able to get partially what is taught ! isnt this an achievement ?

you are "BETTER OFF" !
:) That itself means its sinking ... and it will take over...
give it time ...
slowly...

Love!
Silence
Namaste.

I guess so, my friend.

I am not impatient about this, but now I shall ask you for a short answer.

If you were to sum up, in one sentence what your whole argument is, what you are trying to accomplish here and what is your motive for all this, what would that be?

*also wondering how many posts it takes before I am not a 'new member' anymore. LOL

Aum Namah Shivaya

silence_speaks
20 August 2013, 12:04 AM
Dear Necromancer,
:)

Ill summarize ... [and i guess all such posts as this will be counted too :)]

" Self Knowledge leads to living in meditation 24 7 and Self Knowledge can be conveyed through words ... tangibly ... provided student has a beginners mind. The proof of the pudding is in eating, tangibly, its possible to use shabda pramana [scriptural teachings as pramana] to lead one to see oneself."

Love!
Silence

Necromancer
20 August 2013, 12:10 AM
Dear Necromancer,
:)

Ill summarize ... [and i guess all such posts as this will be counted too :)]

" Self Knowledge leads to living in meditation 24 7 and Self Knowledge can be conveyed through words ... tangibly ... provided student has a beginners mind. The proof of the pudding is in eating, tangibly, its possible to use shabda pramana [scriptural teachings as pramana] to lead one to see oneself."

Love!
Silence
Namaste.

Thank you!

I guess this will also serve to placate Yajvan (maybe). LOL

So, what you are talking about is awareness, no?

Like Shamatha...mindfulness?

About bringing that meditative awareness into everyday life?

Aum Namah Shivaya

silence_speaks
20 August 2013, 12:46 AM
Dear Necromancer,
:)



About bringing that meditative awareness into everyday life?


Yes and No.
One has to remain in "meditative awareness"... but not as a practice.
I am talking about a cognitive change which would leave you in meditation 24 7 ... irrespective of what you are doing.

A Cognitive Change.

Love!
Silence

Necromancer
20 August 2013, 01:09 AM
Dear Necromancer,
:)



Yes and No.
One has to remain in "meditative awareness"... but not as a practice.
I am talking about a cognitive change which would leave you in meditation 24 7 ... irrespective of what you are doing.

A Cognitive Change.

Love!
Silence
Namaste.

...and what is the exact nature of this 'cognitive change'?

I mean, sure...I could say that I have 'realised Brahman' but that is only paying lip service. It is all experiential - like Yajvan has said.

There's also a difference between being mentally aware through cognitive process and being spiritually aware through meditative process.

My mind and heart knows "I am Siva"...but as for realising/experiencing it, that's a different kettle of fish entirely.

...and if my 'past experience' is anything to go by, it's not all sunshine and rainbows as everybody makes it out to be.

It is painful and it hurts...maybe that's just me.

Aum Namah Shivaya

silence_speaks
20 August 2013, 01:14 AM
Dear Necromancer,
:)

1. Any Experience is as good as your interpretation of it. You may be seeing Siva himself, but interpret him as only ordinary person.

2. Given that God is omnipresent, it would mean that it cannot happen that you have never met God !

3. Given 1 and 2, whats missing ? Your interpretation , its your interpretation ... your conclusions that are blocking you to "Recognize" the Presence of God ... though you are experiencing him every moment !

So what do you need ? A proper Recognition or an Experience?
You are Experiencing God 24 7!
Recognition is what is missing.

This is the Cognitive change I am speaking about !

Love!
Silence

Necromancer
20 August 2013, 01:28 AM
Dear Necromancer,
:)

1. Any Experience is as good as your interpretation of it. You may be seeing Siva himself, but interpret him as only ordinary person.

2. Given that God is omnipresent, it would mean that it cannot happen that you have never met God !

3. Given 1 and 2, whats missing ? Your interpretation , its your interpretation ... your conclusions that are blocking you to "Recognize" the Presence of God ... though you are experiencing him every moment !

So what do you need ? A proper Recognition or an Experience?
You are Experiencing God 24 7!
Recognition is what is missing.

This is the Cognitive change I am speaking about !

Love!
Silence
Namaste.

I am going to fall back on 'Neti Neti' here.

If the ultimate experience...the peak experience can in any way be 'interpreted' then it is not the ultimate experience.

"Are you quite done yet? Let's move on, shall we?"

I don't think about Siva as a person...well, if you discount my belief that Brahman is totally impersonal, then I do.

I have come 'unstuck' about this many times on here and despite being involved in infy conversations about it, I still cannot understand how Brahman can be 'personal'...I mean, for all the time I have spent as a Vedantist at ISKCON...I was forever asked: "How can you worship something as impersonal as Brahman?"...yeah, so go figure. lol

I really don't know how I 'interpret' Lord Siva. He is who He is and I just accept it...I do think of Him as a 'friend' though, but not in any way that 'friend' relates to a human 'friend'.

About this 'recognition' thing...

What 'recognises' it? :headscratch:

Aum Namah Shivaya

silence_speaks
20 August 2013, 01:37 AM
Dear Necromancer,
:)
You do not "interpret Lord Siva"
you interpret "YOUR SELF"
and that interpretation is wrong.
wrong conclusions ... leading to wrong "Seeking"
and that interpretation is "negated".

As you speak of Neti , Neti ... the question is ... can you negate your "Experience" . What is Neti , Neti needs a lot more understanding than most people think ... Neti , Neti is equivalent to Sravana, Manana,Nidhidhyasana. Do you see this ?

Love!
Silence

Necromancer
20 August 2013, 01:47 AM
Dear Necromancer,
:)
You do not "interpret Lord Siva"
you interpret "YOUR SELF"
and that interpretation is wrong.
wrong conclusions ... leading to wrong "Seeking"
and that interpretation is "negated".

As you speak of Neti , Neti ... the question is ... can you negate your "Experience" . What is Neti , Neti needs a lot more understanding than most people think ... Neti , Neti is equivalent to Sravana, Manana,Nidhidhyasana. Do you see this ?

Love!
Silence
Namaste.

Please forgive me if I misunderstand you at this point.

Of course you can negate your experience!

My favourite line from Atmashtakam by Adi Shankaracharya goes thus:

न मे द्वेषरागौ न मे लोभमोहौ, मदो नैव मे नैव मात्सर्यभावः ।
न धर्मो न चार्थो न कामो न मोक्षः, चिदानन्दरूपः शिवोऽहम् शिवोऽहम् ।। 3 ।। )

na me dveşarāgau na me lobhamohau
mado naiva me naiva mātsaryabhāvaḥ
na dharmo na cārtho na kāmo na mokşaḥ
cidānandarūpaḥ śivo'ham śivo'ham

Now, how can I reconcile Bhakti with Advaita?

You tell me and we'll both know it. lol

Aum Namah Shivaya

silence_speaks
20 August 2013, 02:06 AM
Dear Necromancer,
:)

Please take the wonderful verse you just pointed to.

न मे द्वेषरागौ न मे लोभमोहौ, मदो नैव मे नैव मात्सर्यभावः ।
न धर्मो न चार्थो न कामो न मोक्षः, चिदानन्दरूपः शिवोऽहम् शिवोऽहम् ।। 3 ।।
Exceptional isn't it ?

... How do you see yourself as this ?
Not ... whether its true or not.
I should be able to see myself as this !

Love!
Silence

Necromancer
20 August 2013, 02:18 AM
Dear Necromancer,
:)

Please take the wonderful verse you just pointed to.

न मे द्वेषरागौ न मे लोभमोहौ, मदो नैव मे नैव मात्सर्यभावः ।
न धर्मो न चार्थो न कामो न मोक्षः, चिदानन्दरूपः शिवोऽहम् शिवोऽहम् ।। 3 ।।
Exceptional isn't it ?

... How do you see yourself as this ?
Not ... whether its true or not.
I should be able to see myself as this !

Love!
Silence
Namaste.

Yes, I see myself as this.

I can say "I am Shiva" until the proverbial Mother Cows come home.

So, now I know it, what's next? ;)

Aum Namah Shivaya

silence_speaks
20 August 2013, 02:23 AM
Dear Necromancer,
:) if you see yourself as this,
you do not need to practice meditation :D
and if u do not see yourself as this,
then why you do not see thus requires correction ... not a practice -- a practice cannot make you see as such[Atma bodha, shankara]!!

Love!
Silence

Necromancer
20 August 2013, 02:29 AM
Dear Necromancer,
:) if you see yourself as this,
you do not need to practice meditation :D
and if u do not see yourself as this,
then why you do not see thus requires correction ... not a practice -- a practice cannot make you see as such[Atma bodha, shankara]!!

Love!
Silence
Namaste.

Why is it, that even though I do see myself as this, nothing much has really happened? Nothing is 'different'?

People talk about all these beautiful sensations like heightened awareness, bright lights, feeling in a particularly transcendental state...I got none of that.

Yes, I feel detached from everything - like I am watching 'World TV' or something...but that's about it.

Aum Namah Shivaya

silence_speaks
20 August 2013, 03:44 AM
Dear Necromancer,

:) Namasthe!



Yes, I feel detached from everything - like I am watching 'World TV' or something...but that's about it.


If you are able to look at the world as "Mithya" and yourself as "Purna"[Ever Fulfilled] -- you are free.

If you are "Expecting" something different, that "Expectation" is also a "World TV" [nice expression :)]. So You do not need to reach something different.
This idea that it has to be something different is what is a blockage to meditative living.

Nothing happens ... in fact anything that happens is mithya.
You Are... Ever without any bondage !

People talk of all that ... and none of that has anything to do with liberated living ... just be ... there is one thing that will happen, however... total desire-less-ness ... total absence of "seeking"... and yet one continues to do things and remains as usual.

Love!
Silence

smaranam
20 August 2013, 05:27 AM
Namaste silence,


So I have an open question for the forum members : Can we look at life from this attitude of Sanata Kumara ?

NO. Sanata Kumara should have done any ONE of the following TWO:

Scenario I]
MA PArvati: Ask for a boon, son.
SK: Thanks Mother but there is nothing I desire. So no thanks.
MA: I am pleased with you. Please ask for something.
SK: As you wish, Mother, You may give me anything You want to.
MA: OK. Here, you shall be the next XYZ devatA in the coming manvantara
SK: Thanks MA Whatever
MA: You are arrogant. I shall turn you into a camel
SK: Whatever (turns into a camel)
MA: I think I shall turn you back into a human. You had enough.
SK: Whatever. (turns into human)

Final State: No change. NO-OP.

-----------

Scenario II]
MA: Ask for a boon
SK: MA, I am so fortunate to be blessed by You, Adi Shakti. By Your Mercy, may I always remember that Lotus-Eyed Shri Hari and never forget Him, may I always chant His glories.
MA: (pleased) tathAstu.

Necromancer
20 August 2013, 05:37 AM
Namaste.

Even if SK was fully established in Brahman and Mother Parvati said she would give him a boon...even though he didn't require one and had no use for it:

Parvati: Ask for a boon, son.
SK: Thank you Mother, but I have no desires left. If you insist though, I wish that everybody in the whole world would be able to feel like I do right now.

I think that would have covered it.

He deserved to be turned into a camel. lol

Aum Namah Shivaya

silence_speaks
20 August 2013, 08:29 AM
Thank you Mother, but I have no desires left. If you insist though, I wish that everybody in the whole world would be able to feel like I do right now.


What if he is convinced :
There is no one else in the world.
All upadhis are mithya.

;)
Love!
Silence

yajvan
20 August 2013, 10:17 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

Yajvan ... this is not what is said.
Self reveals itself to itself ?? It says "यमेवैष वृणुते तेन लभ्यः"
He who chooses. One has to make that choice to know.

It says "यमेवैष वृणुते तेन लभ्यः"
this says, yam evaiṣa vṛṇute tena labhyaḥ¹

While you offer a noble effort for the translation of this śloka me thinks
you have missed the diamond that lays in the rough. The next line is where the 'secret' is offered...
tasyaiṣa ātmā vivṛnute tanūṁ svām ||23

I will only translate the one key word that opens the door...

vivṛ = to reveal , display , show I also suggest the reader get another opinion of this śloka other then me... for who am I. Look to a few luminaries and their insights/translations. I recommend the kaṭhopaniṣad translation by svāmī muni nārāyaṇa prāsad; I then recommend one checks his work by another, and look to Lights on the Upaniṣads, by T.V. kalpāli sāstri; then if one is persistent check his work by svāmī śivānaṇda, in his offerings The Principle Upanishads. If 3 is not sufficient, please advise and I will add more upon request.

iti śivaṁ

words

yam = grant , bestow on , present with
eva = indeed , truly , really + iṣa = seeking
tena = on that account , for that reason , therefore
labhya = to be allowed to One also needs to be aware that my post #94 :

The Self (ātman) is svatāsiddha is self-revealed, self-known on a personal -subjective -intimate level. One can look for inferences , ideas, pointers - all are good to appreciate this level of Being. Yet at the end of the day the Self reveals itSelf to itSelf, so says the upaniṣad-s¹.
What then is our responsibility ? to prepare, make ready.... does not suggest this was the śloka that appears in the kaṭhopaniṣad (1.2.23). What was and remains an offering is the kaṭhopaniṣad informs us the Self reveals itSelf to itself.

yajvan
20 August 2013, 10:30 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté


What if he is convinced :
There is no one else in the world. All upadhis are mithya.

;)
Love!
Silence

This is a very vedāntic view which I respect and there is nothing wrong with this, yet it is one of the 6 schools ( I count no less then 16 schools but will leave that for another time).

That said, I post this to ask then when you use a term that is not commonly used i.e. upadhi, that is comes with a definition. This gives our reader the increased ability to participate and understand new words used. It is also part of our Guidelines as offered.

Also as you know this upadhi has multiple meanings. I will assume you are applying it to mean 'fraud' in general, but this term also has the definitions of:


the act of putting to , adding , addition
support
the part of the wheel between the nave and the circumference To the 'purest' we could look at the word as upa + dhi to ferret out even deeper significance, but no need to go there ( it is for the etymologist at heart that would enjoy this dis-assembly of words).

iti śivaṁ

silence_speaks
20 August 2013, 11:55 AM
Dear Yajvan,
:) Namasthe!



Self reveals itSelf to itSelf


This is incorrect translation ... i guess its typical max muller translation :)
If you Choose the Self Reveals itself to you.
You have to make the choice ... to know...

and you translated:



yam = grant , bestow on , present with
eva = indeed , truly , really + iṣa = seeking
tena = on that account , for that reason , therefore
labhya = to be allowed to

This is the translation of Swami Dayananda Saraswati [mandykya] , Arsha vidya gurukul:



ayam - this, atma - self, pravacanena - by mere recitation of veda [shankara bhasyam], na not labhyah - can be gained. na - not , medhaya - by mere memory, na -not , bahuna srutena - by study of many disciplines of knowledge. tena - by that person , eva - alone labhyah - it is gained.
yam - whom , eshah - this person , vrunute - chooses to know. tasya - for that person, atma - the self, svaam - its own. tanum - nature . vivrunute - reveals.

The self is neither gainedb y mere recitation of Veda nor by mere memory, nor bu mere study of many disciplines of knowledge. The person who choses to know the Self gains it. Then the self reveals its nature to that person.


Swami Chinmayananda ji, in katha:



"This Atman cannot be attainedb y the study of the vedas nor by intelligence, nor by much hearing. Its gained by him who choses (prays to) this atman alone. to him this atman reveals its true nature"
and he too translates...

yam : whom
eva : alone
esah: this
vrunute : chooses



Exactly same translation by Ramakrishna Mission book as well!

Infact Shankara's Bhasyam says at the end that it means "Who ever Prays to Self or Chooses to reach out to Self, him the Self Reveals"

so its not "Self chooses and it reveals"

Love!
Silence

silence_speaks
20 August 2013, 12:05 PM
Regarding Upadhi...
udayanaacaarya interperts this etymologically as:
उप समीपवर्तिनि आदधाति सँक्रामयति स्वीयँ धर्मम् इति उपाधिः

"Upadhi is that which imparts its own attribute to a nearby object"

Typical example: colored glass jars serve as upadhi for water.
or a red rose near a colorless crystal.

Love!
Silence

silence_speaks
20 August 2013, 12:24 PM
नायमात्मा प्रवचनेन लभ्यो न मेधया न बहुना श्रुतेन ।
यमेवैष वृणुते तेन लभ्य-
स्तस्यैष आत्मा विवृणुते तनूं स्वाम् ॥ २३ ॥

न अयम् आत्मा This Atman is not प्रवचनेन लभ्यः attained through study न मेधया nor by intelligence न बहुना श्रुतेन or by much hearing of sacred literature. यम् he whom एव alone एष the Self वृणुते chooses तेन लभ्यः It is attaind by such a person तस्य Its एष thisआत्मा Atman विवृणुते reveals तनूं स्वाम् Its true nature.


--->Advaita-academy,

http://www.advaita-academy.org/Articles/kaThopaniShad-Series-Part---17.ashx

yajvan
20 August 2013, 12:43 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté


नायमात्मा प्रवचनेन लभ्यो न मेधया न बहुना श्रुतेन ।
यमेवैष वृणुते तेन लभ्य-
स्तस्यैष आत्मा विवृणुते तनूं स्वाम् ॥ २३ ॥

न अयम् आत्मा This Atman is not प्रवचनेन लभ्यः attained through study न मेधया nor by intelligence न बहुना श्रुतेन or by much hearing of sacred literature. यम् he whom एव alone एष the Self वृणुते chooses तेन लभ्यः It is attaind by such a person तस्य Its एष thisआत्मा Atman विवृणुते reveals तनूं स्वाम् Its true nature.
--->Advaita-academy,

http://www.advaita-academy.org/Articles/kaThopaniShad-Series-Part---17.ashx

Based upon your own reference... it says

This Atman cannot be attained by the study of the veda-s, or by intelligence, or by much hearing of sacred books.
It is attained by him alone whom It chooses. To such a one Atman reveals Its own form.


What more need be said ?

Well I guess a bit more..


This is incorrect translation ... i guess its typical max muller translation
If you Choose the Self Reveals itself to you.
You have to make the choice ... to know...

I do not read Max Muller, but in-fact gave 3 references offered in my last post.

Now if you take issue with the nomenclature that the Self reveals itSelf to Itself and are not comfortable with the verbiage I respect your position, but I still will be able to sleep at night with the words offered and the alignment thereof to the kaṭhopaniṣad.

Yet your offer


He who chooses. One has to make that choice to know. ( post 94 above)
is off the mark and does not even parallel the reference that you give e.g. ' It is attained by him alone whom It chooses'. ( just mentioned in your post above)

If you wish to continue the conversation I recommend you post a new string that should fit nicely into the jalpa folder¹; then you can debate
the words that you offer with your self or whoever wishes to engage you ( that would not be me). I look forward to the outcome.

( Any further debate on this specific matter is fruitless and will therefore be considered off the original post's subject and be removed)

iti śivaṁ

1. jalpa folder - http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6420
jalpa - a kind of disputation (overbearing reply and disputed rejoinder)

silence_speaks
20 August 2013, 01:01 PM
Dear Yajvan,
:) I quoted Swami Chinmayananda ji and Swami Dayananda ji.
You can see how they have translated it. I gave their translation as it is. Shankara himself uses it in that style ... He who chooses ! Self does not choose Yajvan. :D... and Self does not have partiality to choose one over the other. More importantly Self does not even do anything ... Self is supposed to be akriyah.

Further: ... Since , obviously, you are more knowledgeable in sanskrit ... I would be glad to hear how Shankara, Dayananda and Chinmayanana ji have arrived at that translation.

No I am not going to go for Jalpa :) [and with regards to sanskrit ! :D LOL, its like a jalpa between an elephant and an ant ] thank you.

Love!
Silence

yajvan
20 August 2013, 01:11 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté



Dear Yajvan,
:) I quoted Swami Chinmayananda ji and Swami Dayananda ji.
You can see how they have translated it. I gave their translation as it is. Shankara himself uses it in that style ... He who chooses ! Self does not choose Yajvan. :D... and Self does not have partiality to choose one over the other. More importantly Self does not even do anything ... Self is supposed to be akriyah.

Further: ... Since , obviously, you are more knowledgeable in sanskrit ... I would be glad to hear how Shankara, Dayananda and Chinmayanana ji have arrived at that translation.

No I am not going to go for Jalpa :) [and with regards to sanskrit ! :D LOL, its like a jalpa between an elephant and an ant ] thank you.

If you wish to know this, then it will be best to open a new string in the folder that best fits with the subject matter, and then deposited there;
it then can be pursued to a deeper/meaningful level i.e. word-by-word, phoneme-by-phoneme, and each definition, its roots, and their meanings.

iti śivaṁ

silence_speaks
20 August 2013, 01:13 PM
You are the best judge for a thread where this can be opened up :)

Not Jalpa :)

yajvan
20 August 2013, 03:52 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté


You are the best judge for a thread where this can be opened up :)

If it is going to be on the various śloka-s from the kaṭhopaniṣad and other upaniṣad-s then I recommend this file folder:
http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=9

iti śivaṁ

Necromancer
20 August 2013, 08:48 PM
What if he is convinced :
There is no one else in the world.
All upadhis are mithya.

;)
Love!
Silence
Namaste.

How can he be convinced there is nobody else in this world?

I mean, there's a difference between being detached and being in denial isn't there?

Meh...I am going to go and rewatch Devon Ke Dev Mahadev. There's nothing like changing the subject and doing something totally different to convince others you are enlightened. LOL

Aum Namah Shivaya

silence_speaks
20 August 2013, 09:45 PM
Dear Yajvan,
:) I am a little busy this week, so we will discuss on the verse next week. I would require to take out my sanskrit books and carefully analyze that along with the shankara bhasyam before discussing it with you [not jalpa :D my knowledge of sanskrit is about school level :), only some study of vedantic texts to add to that]. I'll open a thread in the suggested folder.

Love!
Silence

silence_speaks
20 August 2013, 09:50 PM
Namaste.

How can he be convinced there is nobody else in this world?

I mean, there's a difference between being detached and being in denial isn't there?

Meh...I am going to go and rewatch Devon Ke Dev Mahadev. There's nothing like changing the subject and doing something totally different to convince others you are enlightened. LOL

Aum Namah Shivaya

:) Yes there is a difference between being detached and denial.
For example, I can leave this forum ... saying, I want to be in seclusion.
Or I can remain here in total detachment, so much so, that if someone asks ... I leave without much trouble.

It's detachment thats needed, not denial. And that detachment too has to be born out of Viveka .

Regarding the total non-existence of Upadhis [Ajata Vada] ... you would require to study mandukya karikas in detail with shankara bhasyam :) --- mark you, no experience would be needed ... that viveka will establish you firmly in the conviction that the world is mere appearance.
Another book of similar type : yoga vasishta.

Love!
Silence

Necromancer
20 August 2013, 10:44 PM
:) Yes there is a difference between being detached and denial.
For example, I can leave this forum ... saying, I want to be in seclusion.
Or I can remain here in total detachment, so much so, that if someone asks ... I leave without much trouble.

It's detachment thats needed, not denial. And that detachment too has to be born out of Viveka .

Regarding the total non-existence of Upadhis [Ajata Vada] ... you would require to study mandukya karikas in detail with shankara bhasyam :) --- mark you, no experience would be needed ... that viveka will establish you firmly in the conviction that the world is mere appearance.
Another book of similar type : yoga vasishta.

Love!
Silence
Namaste.

Yes, I have studied yoga vasishta, but have not studied mandukya karikas. I have studied mandukya upanishad...

So, let's assume for one second here, that SK didn't believe other people exist. Let's say they really don't.

Who/what am I talking to when I type these words? Am I just talking to myself here? (even though it seems like that a lot of the time). :p

If a person, is indeed, 'selfless' and in a 'non-ego' state, shouldn't that person have karuna or compassion for others?

Aum Namah Shivaya

silence_speaks
20 August 2013, 10:49 PM
Dear Necromancer,
:)



Who/what am I talking to when I type these words? Am I just talking to myself here? (even though it seems like that a lot of the time). :p

If a person, is indeed, 'selfless' and in a 'non-ego' state, shouldn't that person have karuna or compassion for others?


You are not talking either :)

At relative perspective you may have karuna...no harm.
but you do see it as a dream! So you see that which is seen is only like a mirage. From the point of view of mirage you are talking to me... and from the point of view of your understanding [paramarthika]... you know that there is no one there, no one here ... no talking ... Pure Presence alone!
;) so for such a person karuna is also not something of much importance...if its there, thats fine and he would not make a big issue of it... he gives away everything without much noise :) ... and if it is not there ... he is indifferent!

Love!
Silence

Necromancer
20 August 2013, 11:07 PM
Dear Necromancer,
:)



You are not talking either :)

At relative perspective you may have karuna...no harm.
but you do see it as a dream! So you see that which is seen is only like a mirage. From the point of view of mirage you are talking to me... and from the point of view of your understanding [paramarthika]... you know that there is no one there, no one here ... no talking ... Pure Presence alone!
;) so for such a person karuna is also not something of much importance...if its there, thats fine and he would not make a big issue of it... he gives away everything without much noise :) ... and if it is not there ... he is indifferent!

Love!
Silence
Namaste.

If 'nobody' is talking, 'nobody' is listening, 'nobody' is doing and 'nobody' is being done by...what is the point in existing...assuming that 'anybody exists' in the first place?

Lets just assume for one moment (huge assumption) that I have attained Nirvana...yeah, the universe is Maya...'Brahman alone exists' and all that, can't I just die already?

What use is there in even 'pretending' anymore? I mean, pretending to give a damn? pretending that other people are out there? pretending that my car insurance is not due next week (which I cannot afford) and without that, I cannot drive my child to school or get household groceries, pretending that I don't have a verbally abusive landlord (who I must 'agree' with that I am an 'effing idiot' and pander to all his emotional outbursts just to keep a roof over my family's head).

Yes, I can see that 'I am Brahman'...but if I took that to the 'nth degree', my whole family would be out in the street, destitute and living off alms.

Please consider.

Aum Namah Shivaya

Necromancer
20 August 2013, 11:27 PM
Ma Parvati: Ask for a boon, son.
SK: Thank you, Mother but I am totally desireless. If you insist though, please just kill me now, so I don't have to continuously and baselessly interact with your Shakti even though I fully realise I am beyond all that.

silence_speaks
20 August 2013, 11:45 PM
A person was playing a role or Ravana in a drama, he took himself to be Ravana. And then he was told "Nirvana is to realize there is no Ravana here" ... he says "If there is no Ravana here, suppose I realize this , this drama must stop "!!
Must the drama stop ?
Why should the drama drop ?

The drama goes on, as long as it goes on ...

Even to want it to end means you feel burdened.

Necromancer
20 August 2013, 11:58 PM
A person was playing a role or Ravana in a drama, he took himself to be Ravana. And then he was told "Nirvana is to realize there is no Ravana here" ... he says "If there is no Ravana here, suppose I realize this , this drama must stop "!!
Must the drama stop ?
Why should the drama drop ?

The drama goes on, as long as it goes on ...

Even to want it to end means you feel burdened.
Namaste.

Of course I feel heavily burdened by this knowledge and experience!

Okay, so the drama goes on...

Oh, I see...I am calling myself an 'effing idiot' here...that's nice. So I am evicting myself here...that's nice. So my family (who is also me) is left out on the street to starve...that's nice. So my family (who is also me) is telling me I am a heartless, uncaring bitch now and will never speak to me again...that's nice.

I mean, what is the point?

If God (or whatever) intended this Karma for me, why the heck did they throw Nirvana in the middle of it and say 'there ya go...enjoy!'

Why couldn't I be left as an ignorant person just trying to survive and scrape a meagre living out of this world?

So yeah, this realisation has been like an albatross around my neck.

Aum Namah Shivaya

silence_speaks
21 August 2013, 01:00 AM
Dear Necromancer,
:)
I am not sure what you are trying to say.
Why should you leave the family ?
What has it got to do with Realization that family is unreal?

You are a householder ... means you have the freedom to hold onto it or leave it.
if you can hold onto it, but cannot leave... it means you are a house held, not a householder . [one of my teachers... :)]

so you do not need to leave family... but eventually ... everything has to be left, coz this body itself goes ... and when one leaves, one leaves with a smile ...

and nothing exotic is going to happen... as is obvious ... people wont even agree with you ;) and u have no supernatural powers to convince them :D

Love!
Silence

Necromancer
21 August 2013, 01:32 AM
Dear Necromancer,
:)
I am not sure what you are trying to say.
Why should you leave the family ?
What has it got to do with Realization that family is unreal?

You are a householder ... means you have the freedom to hold onto it or leave it.
if you can hold onto it, but cannot leave... it means you are a house held, not a householder . [one of my teachers... :)]

so you do not need to leave family... but eventually ... everything has to be left, coz this body itself goes ... and when one leaves, one leaves with a smile ...

and nothing exotic is going to happen... as is obvious ... people wont even agree with you ;) and u have no supernatural powers to convince them :D

Love!
Silence
Namaste.

It has nothing to do with that at all.

I am a householder and for all intents and purposes for this conversation, a 'self-realised householder'.

Should I not also fulfill my Dharma according to this?

You asked me before, what is my reaction upon hearing news? and I never answered you then, because it wasn't the right time.

First, my senses hear/read whatever it is.

If it is not applicable to me or my circumstances, I ignore it.

If it is, I consider the implications of it then act accordingly.

Okay, so I am facing bankruptcy, homelessness and the finance company repossessing my car.

Should I not go out and find a better paying job? Or should I just be content with 'Oh, I am Brahman anyway, so screw that'.

I am being abused by my landlord. Should I not go and find somewhere else to live? Or should I just view it with a certain 'que sera, sera' and just accept it?

Does self-realisation mean that we cease with even trying to 'better ourselves' materialistically?

Who says I don't have 'supernatural powers'? maybe I just cannot walk on water yet. LOL

Bleh...people wouldn't be able to see it anyway unless I gave them the eyes.

Arunachala Shiva Om.

silence_speaks
21 August 2013, 01:50 AM
Should I not go out and find a better paying job?


Why not?
Go for a better job.
A movie is mithya, unreal ... that does not stop you from creating a nice environment in the movie :)
...

Infact, right now i am researching on a problem ... the problem is mithya, my research is mithya and yet at the vyavaharika level i continue.

Love!
Silence

Love!
Silence

smaranam
21 August 2013, 01:52 AM
Namaste


Should I not go out and find a better paying job?
You should find a job that pays the rent, all bills, car insurance, but not necessarily vacations and extravagances.

By staying in the situation of bankruptcy, you are affecting
1. the Landlord
2. your daughter(s)
3. possibly your bank
4. the illusory you

This is karma affecting the environment, be it mithya. It is mithya to you, not to them.


I am being abused by my landlord. Should I not go and find somewhere else to live? Or should I just view it with a certain 'que sera, sera' and just accept it?

Is the abuse over rent or repairs and such? Then the above can make it go away. If there are other factors such as your anger, your behaviour, then that has to be corrected, even though the other person may be unreasonable.
After all you have done from your side in line with dharma, if the landlord is just unreasonable, s/he is in the wrong, and they cannot do that.

Radhe

Necromancer
21 August 2013, 02:07 AM
Namaste

You should find a job that pays the rent, all bills, car insurance, but not vacations, and extravagances.

By staying in the situation of bankruptcy, you are affecting
1. the Landlord
2. your daughter(s)
3. possibly your bank
4. the illusory you

This is karma affecting the environment, be it mithya. It is mithya to you, not to them.



Is the abuse over rent or repairs and such? Then the above can make it go away. If there are other factors such as your anger, your behaviour, then that has to be corrected, even though the other person may be unreasonable.
After all you have done from your side in line with dharma, if the landlord is just unreasonable, s/he is in the wrong, and they cannot do that.

Radhe
Namaste.

No, my landlord is a drunkard and has a nasty temper. I try to avoid him most of the time, but when I cannot, he's like 'what the hell are you looking at? piss off'...yeah, he's one of those types of people.

I have been nothing but nice to the landlord. I even cook for him three times a week and I am not an angry person at all. I pay rent on time, I am quiet and whatever gets broken, I replace/repair.

However, all I need to say is 'hi there, how's it going?' for him to say "up the s***, now get lost".

Thing is, I am paying private rent and about $100 a week less here (it's a real dump) than anywhere else. I cannot afford to rent anywhere else, so I gotta put up with it, or I am out on the street, along with my daughter.

My daughter thinks I shouldn't cook for him anymore or even attempt to communicate with him.

I cannot understand something.

If the world is mithya to me, how can it be 'not mithya' to others when, according to Silence, there are no 'others' because 'others' are mithya?

Aum Namah Shivaya

smaranam
21 August 2013, 02:14 AM
If you find a better job then there will be no need to live there in that case, but as yr daughter says, why talk to him? Just leave him alone.

Have faith that Shiva will extend that hand and pull you out of this one day. I know He will. But you have to have that desire to change the situation, He will not impose it on you.

"How is it not mithya to others if there is no one else?"
Because mithya is relative. Those others are characters in the movie.

_/\_

Necromancer
21 August 2013, 02:33 AM
If you find a better job then there will be no need to live there in that case, but as yr daughter says, why talk to him? Just leave him alone.

Have faith that Shiva will extend that hand and pull you out of this one day. I know He will. But you have to have that desire to change the situation, He will not impose it on you.

"How is it not mithya to others if there is no one else?"
Because mithya is relative. Those others are characters in the movie.

_/\_
Namaste.

Thank you, my dear.

I have been praying to Shiva, not for myself....but for my landlord.

I ask him to remove the bitterness from the old man's heart and to show him a kinder way.

I have tried, but only Shiva can do this and two days ago (after being told off yet again) I finally accepted that and prayed.

There must be a reason why I am here, and until that Karma extinguishes itself, here I must remain.

Going out and finding work is hard. I have to compete with others (who may/not be real) for a job (which may/not be real).

Yes, I get it....it's like playing an interactive video game with many variables (which I have no control over).

How can one remain objective?

What is the way?

Aum Namah Shivaya

smaranam
21 August 2013, 03:25 AM
Namaste,

I have always said this:
VairAgya (extreme renunciation) is a double-edged sword when you have to live in the material world.

This is what you are saying right? If we can live with ke sara sara, we do.


I have been praying to Shiva, not for myself....but for my landlord.
I ask him to remove the bitterness from the old man's heart and to show him a kinder way.
That was obvious from your cooking for him.
Sorry if I am intruding into personal matters but I do not see why you have to talk. When you have to talk, he is the drunkard not you, so whatever nonsense he speaks goes into the mithya-within-mithya air, not to you the AtmA. There was no need to spell that out, I know :)

In the worst case you will lose the car => your daughter and perhaps you, have to find transport. Worst come to worse, she can't be in school.

Is this something the self-realized person with full trust in Shiva worries about? I don't think so.

Granted there is that vairAgya, but there is also svadharma (own dharma), and is there any reason why we have to lose mental peace ? The avadhoot does not lose mental peace.

Can self-realization and jnana be an "albatrass around the neck", other than vairAgya being the source of zero motivation? Only the ignorant one will panic. Yes, the ignorant will also run here there to change situations, becs DurgA gives them motivation.


How can one remain objective?
Then don't.


What is the way?
svadharma == akarma. Knowing when it is necessary to act, is the key.
shraddhA (faith).
Dwelling in the transcendental Lord and knowledge of Him.


_/\_

silence_speaks
21 August 2013, 03:36 AM
Dear Necromancer,
:)
You should not confuses paramarthika & Vyavaharika ...
Paramarthika : absolute perspective
Vyavaharika : relative perspective.

if you are watching a movie ... from the standpoint of one watching it , there is no movie at all. whether the movie character is there or not its fine.

from the standpoint of you as a hero of the movie, there are things you do ... you are involved in.

even when you are operating in the vyavaharika sense, at exactly same time u r not operating in the paramarthika sense.

so me, u ... both are mithya ... any nama-rupa [name&form] is mithya.
and yet when operating at the level of names and forms ... you continue to operate as you should and see whats appropriate. this knowledge that names and forms are mithya just means you understand that they appear for something and then vanish ... like a ghost imagined on a post !

Love!
Silence

silence_speaks
21 August 2013, 03:42 AM
In Relative aspects following Dharma (with simple meaning ofr what is ought to be done and right to be done in a given position)... is of Paramount importance.
Knowledge is to internally remain unaffected in all situations.

Love!
Silence

Necromancer
21 August 2013, 04:07 AM
Namaste.

Thank you to both of you. I shall ponder upon your kind words.

Maybe I have been doing too much 'pondering'...too much thinking.

Even though people say that personal experience is irrelevant, it isn't to the person experiencing it (but it is to everybody else).

If there is any lesson I learned from my ex back in the 'good times' it was him laughing and saying 'drop it' whenever I started to philosophise.

Not drop the argument...that wasn't the point, but drop my thinking mind into my heart.

For the purpose of this conversation, I have remained in Vishuddha (Speech Chakra), but my heart has been closed off....totally.

So, the whole point of this thread?

To reconcile the Antahkarana...the distinction existing between Buddhi and Manas.

The moral of this thread?

Not to burn that bridge once you have crossed it, or IF you do...just build another one and get over it.

I love Siva and that love is the key.

Aum Namah Shivaya

smaranam
21 August 2013, 12:02 PM
Even though people say that personal experience is irrelevant, it isn't to the person experiencing it (but it is to everybody else).
It is relevant, of course, but we have to work on and through it with the help of what the shAstra teaches.

yajvan
21 August 2013, 12:35 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté



To reconcile the Antahkarana...the distinction existing between Buddhi and Manas.
Are you certain this is the word you wish to use ?

antakaraṇa = causing death , mortal , destructive; causing an end of, abolishing If we look to patañjali’s yogadarśana one wishes to find the distinction between buddhi & puruṣa ( as called out within this school of thinking) which they call viveka-khyāti .

viveka = discrimination or the faculty of distinguishing and classifying things according to their real properties
khyāti = knowledge ( some call perception).I can see the 'destruction' of mind as apropos to this term, yet I would re-think using the term antakaraṇa in place of viveka.

... just a thought.

praṇām

Necromancer
21 August 2013, 04:26 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Are you certain this is the word you wish to use ?

antakaraṇa = causing death , mortal , destructive; causing an end of, abolishing If we look to patañjali’s yogadarśana one wishes to find the distinction between buddhi & puruṣa ( as called out within this school of thinking) which they call viveka-khyāti .

viveka = discrimination or the faculty of distinguishing and classifying things according to their real properties
khyāti = knowledge ( some call perception).I can see the 'destruction' of mind as apropos to this term, yet I would re-think using the term antakaraṇa in place of viveka.

... just a thought.

praṇām


Namaste.

Maybe it is the word I wish to use...

As I recall it (from a very long time ago now, so I may be a bit off), The word Antahkarana refers to a symbol of two interlocking triangles (like a Star of David).

The triangle pointing downwards represents all the Chakras below the Brow Chakra (Ajna) and the triangle pointing upwards represents the Brow Chakra and the Crown Chakra (Sahashrara).

It signifies a 'bridge' or 'connection' between the lower and higher states of consciousness (hence why I used the bridge reference).

It also signifies the 'point of no return' in that once you have passed the Vishuddha (throat) Chakra and moved upwards towards the Brow Chakra, opening the Third Eye, you are pretty much 'on your way' from that moment on.

Maybe the spelling or pronunciation may be off....maybe I missed out a letter or something...maybe somebody else knows what I am talking about. lol

Aum Namah Shivaya

Necromancer
21 August 2013, 05:03 PM
Namaste (again).

I just googled it (out of curiosity, to see if I spelled it correctly) and I got this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antahkarana

Apparently, the words are spelled the same (in English), but pronounced differently.

So there we have it.

Aum Namah Shivaya

yajvan
21 August 2013, 08:34 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

Thank you, the word being pursued is antaḥkaraṇa .... now I see your offer.

antaḥkaraṇa = the internal organ , the seat of thought and feeling , the mind , the thinking faculty , the heart , the conscience , the soul.

Yet I think we can agree this is not = to viveka = discrimination or the faculty of distinguishing and classifying things according to their real properties.

praṇām

silence_speaks
22 August 2013, 03:54 AM
antahkarana : inner instrument...
What we call mind in English is vague... its some sort of conglomeration !
In Vedanta, Antahkarana, inner insturment is said to have four fold functions:
manas : mind [sankalpa / vikalpas]
buddhi: intellect
ahamkara: I thought
cittam: memory.

Shankara says "mano-buddhi-ahamkara-cittani na ha"... i am not any of these.

Its the same antahkarana , that has all these modes of operation. There is just one antahkarana, when it is "Decisive, its called intellect", when its "indecisive and thinking in different directions, its manas", when its in the form of a "I though", its ahamkara and when it takes the form of memory, its cittam.

So person telling you about his past achievements. .. is operating mostly from the memory.
if someone is indecisive, constantly fluctuating between options ... manas is predominant.
and when "I" thought and notion is predominant ... ahamkara.

same antahkarana.

Suppose I sit down for meditation... I hear someone outside "Hey shall we go to the party ?" ... and I start "shall I sit for some more time in meditation or shall I go to the party ?" ... "if i go to the party, there will be fun... if i sit down here, ill be alone. But I want to sit down and develop this ability to meditate ... and so on...." all this is indecisive ... manas in operation.
and when i say "No! I will not go to the party ... ill sit here and meditate"
or "Ill go to the party, i can do this meditation later" ...
when i arrive at a decision, its intellect.

when manas kind of operations are able to disturb the antahkarana and change the decisions of buddhi ... buddhi is not strong enough. Its very important to strengthen the buddhi and then its very important to build up a buddhi ... [buddhi nirmanam] through sravana, manana , nidhidhyasanam.

Love!
Silence

smaranam
22 August 2013, 05:12 AM
praNAm Silence,

Just want to thank you for this thread, and for speaking :)

I am not asking for a method, procedure, chart or any such thing. All I shall say is "I do hear what you have to say."

So Thank You.
_/\_

silence_speaks
22 August 2013, 05:31 AM
Dear Smaranam,
:) Thank you.

All I am saying is that meditation is our natural state ... our "Being".

When we try to remain with ourselves, and fail ... it means there is a reason for it and what needs to be corrected is the reason ... instead we try again and again to "concentrate" ... its not going to work.

Love!
Silence

silence_speaks
22 August 2013, 05:35 AM
Heal the Wound, Dont Just Clean The Pus


Mental disturbances / agitation arise as long as the potential for corresponding thoughts exists within.
Our objective in sadhana is not to "eliminate" these thoughts but to "eliminate the potential for the disturbing thoughts"

Its like a wound from which pus is coming out. We have to not just clean the pus ... we have to operate the wound which causes the pus.

Most often people confuse by thinking that sadhana means to eliminate thoughts. A serious sadhaka would know that some times during sadhana lot of thoughts may arise and its only good that they arise. Like air entrapped in water, that has to come out. The pus has to be cleaned, but more importantly the wound of ignorance [about our true state] needs to be healed.

Love!
Silence

smaranam
22 August 2013, 05:43 AM
All I am saying is that meditation is our natural state ... our "Being".

When we try to remain with ourselves, and fail ... it means there is a reason for it and what needs to be corrected is the reason ... instead we try again and again to "concentrate" ... its not going to work.

Love!
Silence

Understand, and agree completely. Till date, never did anything that was not automatic or did not come naturally.
Did not see the point, because who are we impressing or cheating? BhagvAn?

Therefore it appears (and some say so too) that my sAdhanA is just "to have fun or be easy going on your own terms" so no sadhana at all.
Fun does not mean with an I or motivated fun like in this world "let's watch a movie and eat ice-cream".

It is more like putting your-Self on auto-pilot. Nothing great about that, because going upstream against the flow always felt pointless.

_/\_ Hari bolo

silence_speaks
22 August 2013, 05:53 AM
There are some very fundamental corrections that are needed for meditative living here is one:

Peace Need Not Always Mean Spiritual Development

If I am a smoker, and I stop smoking : do I feel peaceful or agitated? Peace need not always mean spiritual development.

Most often peace is seen as a measure of spiritual development. This is a problem. This kind of idea is extended to say that a particular guru is very spiritual because one gets peace in his presence :)!

Peace may be experienced due to various reasons including physical or emotional circumstances. If I am a smoker, non-smoking disturbs my peace, but that is spiritual development. Many times, Facing the situation that is not conducive is true spiritual development. Some times facing a situation that's not easy to face, one initially faces agitations in mind and one has to learn to expose oneself to that. For example i am afraid of darkness, say. so not facing darkness and avoiding it ... is conducive to peace of mind ... but not to actual spiritual development. facing it and getting over the fear is really spiritual development ... but then it is not very peaceful as such. But once one gets over it and all such hurdles ... one's life itself becomes peaceful.

So what have we to do ? Identify areas that are causing mental turmoil ... and face them ... slowly and determinedly face the situations ... and see yourself as untouched by them. How to see yourself as untouched by such situations is important to understand. once this is done, one is able to live a free life 24 7, untouched by troubles and situations in life.

as we will see , there are not many things that trouble us ... a few things keep troubling us again and again ...
we will continue ...

and if a chosen guru does not speak what "We like to hear", :) we may not experience peace in his presence. Sometimes we want to just hear what we think is right... not what is correct ! :)

silence_speaks
22 August 2013, 05:55 AM
Dear Smaranam,
:) I am not saying no sadhana is needed.
I am saying that sadhana has to be done differently ... totally inverted picture and a different position for sadhana ...
please keep reading what I post here to see what I am presenting :)

Love!
Silence

smaranam
22 August 2013, 06:08 AM
I am not saying no sadhana is needed.
Hate to interrupt and shall not anymore, but what I meant was - whatever I did in that direction, self-analysis, situation analysis, problem analysis with Gita in hand, japa, bhajan, shAstra research, shravaN, and samadhi was all something I liked very much and when it came automatically, and not because I was supposed to.
By the grace of Shri KRshNa it was so. That is what I mean by with the flow and not against the flow. The Gopis take automatic steps towards the forest to hear the flute.

Please continue.

silence_speaks
22 August 2013, 06:16 AM
Dear Smaranam,
:) Its absolutely important to develop sadhana chatushtayam [the four fold qualifications]...
you are free when nothing in the world binds you... which also means you do not depend on anything.
waking up early,
sleeping less
eating less or eating more [ all sense enjoyments]...
nothing should be a trouble ... nothing should be a suffering.
this has to be discovered within.
and for that ... he way is almost always against the flow ...

Love!
Silence

smaranam
22 August 2013, 08:45 AM
SAdhanA chatushTaya http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=107905&postcount=163
Viveka chuDAmaNi?

KRshNa the merciful has made some of the things you have listed (hunger sleep shukh-dukh dvanda that KRshNa lists in Gita) possible to some extent. I tend to live with lowest common denominator of dependance on material resources and people that I can.

praNAm _/\_

Necromancer
22 August 2013, 09:58 AM
Namaste.

For me, this discussion has reached conclusion.

There's nothing left to ponder that has not been pondered, nothing left to say that has not been said, nothing left to feel that has not been felt and nothing left to understand that has not been understood.

So, I am just going to go off and worship Siva now.


A Dream Within A Dream

Take this kiss upon the brow!
And, in parting from you now,
Thus much let me avow-
You are not wrong, who deem
That my days have been a dream;
Yet if hope has flown away
In a night, or in a day,
In a vision, or in none,
Is it therefore the less gone?
All that we see or seem
Is but a dream within a dream.

I stand amid the roar
Of a surf-tormented shore,
And I hold within my hand
Grains of the golden sand-
How few! yet how they creep
Through my fingers to the deep,
While I weep- while I weep!
O God! can I not grasp
Them with a tighter clasp?
O God! can I not save
One from the pitiless wave?
Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?
- Edgar Allen Poe

Aum Namah Shivaya

smaranam
23 August 2013, 06:38 AM
SAdhanA chatushTaya 1. Discrimination 2. Dispassion 3. Discipline 4. Desirelessness
Is this it? Viveka chuDAmaNi?


Where did that come from?
Here is the real list.
viveka,
vairAgya,
shat-sampatti (shama, dama, uparati, tiTikshA, samAdhAna, shraddhA)
mumukshatva

- Source: Viveka ChuDAmaNi by AdiShankarAchArya

This Essay by Swami Shivananda explains the 4
http://elmisattva-nonduality.blogspot.in/2012/10/sadhana-chatushtaya-four-means-of.html

_/\_

smaranam
25 August 2013, 02:04 AM
we will continue ...

Please continue

silence_speaks
26 August 2013, 04:17 AM
Lets briefly summarize:

1. Its important solve the reason why mind is non-meditative , rather than bringing back the mind to meditative state again and again. Most methods concentrate on the first: techniques to bring back the mind to meditative-ness. While I said, its more important to correct the reasons why mind has a tendency to get into a non-meditative state and correct those reasons.

2. I emphasized that I am not denying or rejecting any method of meditation ... rather I am just giving those methods their appropriate place.

3. I also made it a point to explain that "Peace" should not be used as a "Measurement" of success in meditation. Because ... whenever I try to "Counter" a habit pattern or addiction ... i wont feel peaceful... and yet , countering these addictions is a must for growing in meditative-ness.

Now lets see a simple "Technique" [and being a technique its limited in scope ... but gives us some interesting clues :) to be discussed further] to master the mind :) ... a simple experiment lets say ...

silence_speaks
27 August 2013, 10:37 PM
AN EXPERIMENT:
So , here is an experiment :) . The first practice ... technique ... I am suggesting ...

Do Not Pacify The Mind

:) This is my favourite :) [posted from an earlier article]

When mind "Demands" something, and we do not find a need to "Fulfill" its demands ... one discovers a new freedom.
Ignore !

So lets take simple cases. Suppose i am not habituated to waking up early.
And I wake up early. Knowing fully well that there will be a mental demand for more sleep.

what happens ? mind demands more sleep, i do not heed ! I do not allow the mind to sleep either, i remain alert.

What happens ?

We can be intelligent not to over do this because we use the mind and the body and don't want them to fall sick.
but the point is this: the mind cannot be allowed to "Command" us.

Find out where mind seems to be "commanding" and every such situation ... intentionally get into it and remain un-heeding.
The mind loses its capacity to demand / command.

NOTE:
We want to only make sure mind loses its capacity to command ... we do not definitely want to fall sick.
usually "i feel like this", "I do not like this" etc seem to rule our lives.
the mind says "i like to eat now" and if we do not eat the mind starts "if u do not eat now, this sensation will continue", "i do not want this sensation of hunger" etc ... and one simply has to ignore that talk of mind.

i used to have this habit of eating nut powder. And one day i decided not to eat. I have to take the nut powder packet [crane] while going to office as it is not available anywhere near my office. so while going i did not take and mind said "you will regret this in the afternoon", "you will feel very uncomfortable" and it even reminded me of the "Feeling" and i simply saw "Awareness cannot be affected by anything" and remained. The mind jumped a few times and then its gone. Mind threatens ! If i get threatened it means i have taken myself to be the mind ! Remaining as Awareness , one simply remains a mute witness without seeing any need to react to all those thoughts.

This can be tested with food we do not like or even situations we do not appreciate. Everywhere, mind has to be made a subordinate.


Love!
Silence