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rcscwc
07 September 2013, 01:18 AM
Namaste.
This shloka too is very subtle. It becomes hard to explain it to those who are driven by objective, like Western societies.

It is your duty to perform your task but you have no rights to duty thereof.

Why would any one develop a life saving drugs he he is not entitled to some profit therefrom?

A person is advised to first attain education and then become a householder. As a householder he utilises his knowledge for earning wealth ie artha. Why earning of wealth is removed then why would a man study hard?

Thanks in advance.

hinduism♥krishna
07 September 2013, 02:06 AM
Namaste ,

Whatever use a well has in a place flooded with water, that much use there is in the Vedas for an enlightened person.
( bhagavad gita 2.46 )

Though the Vedas speak of a variety of religious rites, we should accept only those that are conducive to our benefit. When the sun rises, many roads come in sight; but tell me, can a person take all of them? Or even if the earth is flooded with water, we take that much as will satisfy our thirst. So also the wise men reflect on the meaning of the Vedas and accept only the eternal truth.

You have the right to action alone and never for its fruit; do not have the fruit of action as a motive, or attachment to action.
( bhagavad gita 2.47)


O Arjuna, listen. If you consider it this way, it is best that you should perform your duty.
After full consideration, I have come to this view that you should not give up your prescribed
duty . But without hankering after the fruit of action or resorting to wicked deeds,
you should perform only good deed disinterestedly.

Thank you. Hari om.

Ganeshprasad
07 September 2013, 03:26 AM
Pranam



May be this might help, BG 2.47 was discussed here;

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1110&highlight=karma+2.47

Jai Shree Krishna

rcscwc
07 September 2013, 03:51 AM
I assure you that I know most of it. But please appreciate the problem. How to put it across cogently to a predominantly christian group?

rcscwc
07 September 2013, 04:09 AM
Namaste ,


You have the right to action alone and never for its fruit; do not have the fruit of action as a motive, or attachment to action.
( bhagavad gita 2.47)


O Arjuna, listen. If you consider it this way, it is best that you should perform your duty.
After full consideration, I have come to this view that you should not give up your prescribed
duty . But without hankering after the fruit of action or resorting to wicked deeds,
you should perform only good deed disinterestedly.

Thank you. Hari om.

The logical problem is that if I have no right on fruits, why should I act too? That is a very valid objection a layman might raise.Western countries are prosperous because people work hard but in the hope of fruits. It can hardly be denied that their life is better on every count.

Was Krishna advising total self denial of fruits? NO, no. He also tells that victory would give kingdom, death would give heaven. That definitely is assurance and right of some fruit. Only He did assure Arjun of a victory, not in so many word at least. Given that how could Arjun fight without some attachment?

Amrut
07 September 2013, 05:30 AM
Namaste,

In simple words, do not make money your goal of life. There are 4 purushartha-s, efforts in Hindu dharma

Dharma (righteousness) --> artha (finance / money) --> kAma (satisfaction of desires) --> moksha (liberation / salvation).

So shastra-s permit earn in fair way. To run (manage) a house and satisfy desires, one has to have bank balance. Shastra-s give freedom to spend money earned in fair way. Lastly even after enjoying life and earning to heart's content, when one still feels that I am missing something, one resorts to last purushartha, moksha

The idea behind this verse is not to get dragged in fruits of actions. If we expect fruits of action, then depending upon it result, one will act / react

1. If one gets success, one is encouraged to do more of karma. there arises attachment (rAga)

2. In case of failure, one is discouraged to repeat karma or any task, one acquires dvesha and hence tries to do failure analysis and decides not to repeat again. Failure may also result in inferiority complex, lowly feeling, and in some cases depression.

If there is no attachment or expectancy of results, then one will have control over mind and remain steady as one has understanding that whatever be the result of action, it is prasad of God.

Further if one do not accept the result, then three will be anger, ego problem, frustration, etc. This will not be the case if one surrenders karma and it's fruits to God.

To sum up, do business, earn, keep sufficient bank balance to sustain your family, spend money to enjoy life and satisfy desires, but never make earning your goal of life. Also never have huge expectations. Never try to life a royal life. Live simple life. This helps to reduce our monthly personal expenditure and hence less effort and stress or pressure to earn more and more (to satisfy royal desires). Control over mind and senses is important.

Since raga and dvesha attract anger, attachment, grief, sorrow, material happiness, etc, they are the reason for increasing our rate of karma and hence we fall in vicious cycle of life and death.

We do not say that DO NOT HAVE ANY DESIRES. this is not possible. Infact we are born in this world to satisfy desires (vAsanA-s). But in process of satisfying, due to attachment of karma, we in-turn create more desires and react more and more to fruits of karma. This piles up merits and demerits.

If we do not act, then how can we satisfy our desires, the reason for our human birth? we have to act as one cannot stay without without work i.e. stay idle for even 5 minutes. Better keep mind occupied by doing karma, but turn their direction towards God. So do karma for God and surrender their fruits to God. Accept whatever returns you ge. Knowing that certain things are not in our hand will let us stay calm or calm down fast. If everything happens according to our wish, then no one will remember God. God has given free will, but we also have prArabhdha i.e. pre-determined destiny. We have to pass through certain phase of life and certain incidents no matter we like it or not. But how to interpret the situation is in our hand and hence our actions which decide future is in our hands. What we are suffering is due to ripening of fruits of past or past life / lives. How we perceive, interpret and act / react will decide our future.

Hope this helps

Aum

Amrut

smaranam
07 September 2013, 05:34 AM
praNAm

Ganeshprasadji has given the right thread, but it is for the HDF audience, not necessarily simple enough.

So...
To manufacture a life-saving drug, I have something more than the monetary profit in mind. I am inspired to make a revolutionary change for the sake of mankind. I am truly fascinated by my scientific research results, knowledge and genius, and this gives me the impetus backed by the social factor.

After all this, I am not a fool to invest resources, time, skill-set, people, money to give the drug away for free. Of course I expect (by common sense and market sense) that I will earn money. This is an assumption, and perhaps expectation. fine.

So the drug comes out, and it makes a loss. Then what? I read BG 2.47 and
---do not let the inner peace go away.
---do not curse and blame myself for bad market sense
---do not get angry or frustrated on wrong or inadequate technical know-how, study,research

in short I may learn from the mistakes, but I don't repent and lament. It made a loss. By providence. let Him do what He wants to. I accept the result graciously.

assume --> expect ---> act ---> accept result as is, learn, realize I am not the doer, and move on.

AND NOT:
assume --> expect ---> act ---> get dissappointed, lament, curse, be upset, lose inner peace


om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~

smaranam
07 September 2013, 05:43 AM
assume --> expect ---> act ---> accept result as is, learn, realize I am not the doer, and move on.

AND NOT:
assume --> expect ---> act ---> get dissappointed, lament, curse, be upset, lose inner peace

"I am not the [key, instrumental] doer, praKRti and the whole system is" is a key factor in this. Just noticed that Atanuji was saying that in different words on the other karma-yoga thread.

Hare KRshNa

smaranam
07 September 2013, 06:03 AM
Conversely, if the drug made a revolutionary change, the inventor was all over the news headlines and magazines (FAME, pratishThA)
and the inventor became a millionare in due course, the pharmaceutical company became a household name.

BG 2.47 says that the inventor should not wrongly identify with the local body-person and take all the credit thinking it was his/her doing. "I am the King now"

sammAn- honor, fame-pratishThA, dravya-lAbha - monetary gain, should not make the person float in the sky - since this man-made fame and result is transient, short-lived, and will make them falsely identify with the body all the more, taking them far away from realization of the AtmA.

* By acknowledging the hand of daiva (luck & past karma)and PrakRti, circumstances, everything.
* By recognizing one's tru nature as achala, unchanging AtmA.

smaranam
07 September 2013, 06:23 AM
Taken one step further, KRshNa touches the point of karma-phala-tyAga (sacrificing the results/fruits of action) in BG chapter 12 - Bhakti Yog

In this context, karma-phala-tyAga would be giving all the fame (pratishThA), sammAn (honor) back to Ishvar and Ishvari Shakti, not taking the credit. Idam na mama. This is all a result of Your grace and all Yours my Lord. None of it belongs to me (OR I am the AtmA that is alipta - aloof from all this, not the doer).

As for concrete dravya - monetary gain - use it best in service of paramAtmA (be it direct or indirect). Any service to family, society, spiritual cause, mankind - both material and spiritual should be for HIM only. To ultimately take the benefactors through dharma-artha-kama-moksha and if possible, the 5th purushartha - prema-bhakti which overlaps with moksha and dharma.

smaranam
08 September 2013, 02:24 AM
After all this, I am not a fool to invest resources, time, skill-set, people, money to give the drug away for free.
Sant Tukaram would do even that. These are BhagvAn's people. They are too preoccupied with welfare of others, they forget any selfish requirements. Yes, sometimes they take this very far.

Tukaram Maharaj would give away groceries from his shop - free - to the poor. There were many very poor who would come by - who could not afford the groceries. "These people belong to Hari, how can I cause them any distress?" was his bhav.
It made his family live a somewhat austere life (becs his was a loss-business, well-known today as "tukArAmi vyApAr"), but he always taught his wife, daughter and son - never run after money. God has given us what we need. When Chhatrapati Shiva Maharaj sent expensive royal gifts to Tukaram's family, he made them return everything.

----
So, this life-saving-drug-inventor would do similarly, although not necessarily tukArAmi vyApAr. Free or subsidized medicinal drugs for those who cannot afford it.

Someone may argue: this will make people lazy "it is ok to be poor, it works"
Everyone gets charged something in a society-system.
The point is, there should be prosperity, but not greed and excess. Relative concepts in the kingdom of Absolute.

----
BG 2.46, 47 are spoken somewhat in context of Vedas, i.e. karma as in karma-kAnDa although applied to all dhArmic karma including Arjun's.

Even while performing a yadnya, the yajman did that for the welfare of the whole. "Whole" could be community, kingdom, country, earth, humans only, all creatures, cows only... it depends on the sankalpa (resolve and intent).

Ashwamedha yadnya are being done even today - for the spiritual upliftment of people. Donations cover the cost.

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~

rcscwc
08 September 2013, 08:33 PM
It is falhin karam is not possible. So before doing something one does consider the consequences. Everyone looks forward to positive fruits of choice. In fact fruits are first identified then an effort is launched to attain it.

I am sorry. But clarifications meeting the objections of non Hindus have not come forth.

smaranam
09 September 2013, 03:56 AM
It is falhin karam is not possible. So before doing something one does consider the consequences. Everyone looks forward to positive fruits of choice. In fact fruits are first identified then an effort is launched to attain it.

I am sorry. But clarifications meeting the objections of non Hindus have not come forth.
praNAm

Indeed. Nothing wrong with that (words in blue).
WHAT TO DO WITH THE OBTAINED FRUITS, how to react, is upto the person, but they cannot really control the fruits - i.e. outcome of an effort.

I try my best, and leave the rest to KRshNa.

You have the adhikAr to perform action, but you have no control on the actual outcome. Leave the outcome to Parameshwar and His PrakRti. To the timeless kAla which is KRshNa (He says He is kAla in chapter 11).

They may not demand a specific fruit. Despite their meticulous and accurate efforts, the arrow may or may not hit the target. There are many factors involved, daiva, guna, past karma, environmental factors, group consciousness, right desha-kAla-pAtra combination, so many things.

It all boils down to getting rid of ahamkAr.

"I" surrender to the higher power, Bhagavan. KAla chakra.
Things are not really in "my" hands, in "my" control.

If Arjun wins war he gets svarga, but he has to have the consciousness that svarga may or may not come by irrespective of anything he "does" and therefore he surrenders to KRshNa. (It is a different story that Arjun does not care about svarga. Even if he did, BG 2.47 would apply to him.)

If your life-saving-drug-inventor successfully comes up with the drug and it truly saves lives so as to turn the history of medicine (a fatal decease is not fatal anymore), surely they will get fame, honor, fortune here itself, as well as svarga perhaps.

However, if the drug is a failure despite all correct efforts, there is literally NOTHING the inventor can do to go backwards in time. The ONLY thing to do is to move on.

This is what Shri KRshNa is saying IMHO. With such a mindset, no one and nothing can take your peace away.

With this consciousness, one can take up a challenging task or responsibility, aim for the expected fruits, fine, but not get deterred if the expected does not happen.

Anxiety will not be a word in their dictionary.

_/\_

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

Ganeshprasad
09 September 2013, 04:15 AM
Pranam


It is falhin karam is not possible. So before doing something one does consider the consequences. Everyone looks forward to positive fruits of choice. In fact fruits are first identified then an effort is launched to attain it.

I am sorry. But clarifications meeting the objections of non Hindus have not come forth.

Samaranam ji has given good advise, just do your duty, that is also the message in Gita.

Icha desires be it for karma fal even if it is producing drug that would benefit the world at large, it is still a desire and desires are never satiated, be it successful or a big disappointment which adds to ones misery.
Being equanimity for result, since the result is not always guaranteed therefore one must embark on any karma knowing it can result in great disappointment, or in other words do your duty give your best shot but do not worry about the result, ghana karmana gati

it is difficult to understand Karma, if i don't understand fully my self what is the point in making anyone else who comes from different background to understand?
better to head another instruction in Gita 3.25/26
As the ignorant work, O Arjuna, with attachment (to the fruits of work), so the wise should work without attachment, for the welfare of the society. (3.25)
The wise should not unsettle the mind of the ignorant who is attached to the fruits of work, but the enlightened one should inspire others by performing all works efficiently without attachment. (3.26)

Jai Shree Krishna

smaranam
09 September 2013, 04:18 AM
Why would any one develop a life saving drugs he he is not entitled to some profit therefrom?

OK I see what is happening here. The very premise is wrong :)

This is not what the shloka says.

KarmaNye vAdhikAraste mA phaleshu kadAchana

You may make absolutely meticulous, sAttvic efforts with a specific aim too. This is ALL that is in "your hands"
It is OK to keep hopes too, to be optimistic, to anticipate, all is fine.
What happens, the outcome, may not be as per the expectation, because it is wrong to think you are in full control of the outcome.

In business language it is called the "risk factor"

KRshNa is asking you to surrender the ahamKar basically. A surrendered business professional is the best. Please see my previous post, just before this.

If your argument is, the "risk factor" or "things notin my control" is going to hamper motivation and impetus, I disagree, becs, as said earlier, if anxiety is not in your dictionary because ahamkAr isn't, your entire attitude and belief system itself will change drastically, so the question put forth will get this answer: N/A. Not applicable any more :)

Hare KRshNa

rcscwc
09 September 2013, 06:19 AM
praNAm

Indeed. Nothing wrong with that (words in blue).
WHAT TO DO WITH THE OBTAINED FRUITS, how to react, is upto the person, but they cannot really control the fruits - i.e. outcome of an effort.

I try my best, and leave the rest to KRshNa.

You have the adhikAr to perform action, but you have no control on the actual outcome. Leave the outcome to Parameshwar and His PrakRti. To the timeless kAla which is KRshNa (He says He is kAla in chapter 11).

They may not demand a specific fruit. Despite their meticulous and accurate efforts, the arrow may or may not hit the target. There are many factors involved, daiva, guna, past karma, environmental factors, group consciousness, right desha-kAla-pAtra combination, so many things.

It all boils down to getting rid of ahamkAr.

"I" surrender to the higher power, Bhagavan. KAla chakra.
Things are not really in "my" hands, in "my" control.

If Arjun wins war he gets svarga, but he has to have the consciousness that svarga may or may not come by irrespective of anything he "does" and therefore he surrenders to KRshNa. (It is a different story that Arjun does not care about svarga. Even if he did, BG 2.47 would apply to him.)

If your life-saving-drug-inventor successfully comes up with the drug and it truly saves lives so as to turn the history of medicine (a fatal decease is not fatal anymore), surely they will get fame, honor, fortune here itself, as well as svarga perhaps.

However, if the drug is a failure despite all correct efforts, there is literally NOTHING the inventor can do to go backwards in time. The ONLY thing to do is to move on.

This is what Shri KRshNa is saying IMHO. With such a mindset, no one and nothing can take your peace away.

With this consciousness, one can take up a challenging task or responsibility, aim for the expected fruits, fine, but not get deterred if the expected does not happen.

Anxiety will not be a word in their dictionary.

om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya

Another logical problem. Leaving everything in the hands of K is fatalism and amounts to abandoning the duty to perform. Arjuna was prepared to forego kingdom and live on begging.

[For god's sake drug case was just an example. Can you not get another examples?]

Arjuna was to fight a war, where experiments are not allowed. First time right, every time or perish. A much more difficult regime.

Krishna definitely was advising that even fruitless victory would be OK.


Pranam
Samaranam ji has given good advise, just do your duty, that is also the message in Gita.

Icha desires be it for karma fal even if it is producing drug that would benefit the world at large, it is still a desire and desires are never satiated, be it successful or a big disappointment which adds to ones misery.
Being equanimity for result, since the result is not always guaranteed therefore one must embark on any karma knowing it can result in great disappointment, or in other words do your duty give your best shot but do not worry about the result, ghana karmana gati
IMHO, icha was never brought into this shloka even indirectly.

Recall, in an earlier shloka, Krishna had spelled two outcomes of his fighting: Defeat and death means svarga and ever lasting glory. Victory means unchallenged enjoyment of the kingdom.

Not fighting would bring ever lasting ignomy? Had Arjuna ultimately refused to fight, would you find people naming their sons after him?

No sir. Whatever the decision, the outcome was not phalheen.


it is difficult to understand Karma, if i don't understand fully my self what is the point in making anyone else who comes from different background to understand? In fact it is easy to grasp that karma has to be done. Food will not jump into your mouth unless you do the karma of putting it there.


better to head another instruction in Gita 3.25/26
As the ignorant work, O Arjuna, with attachment (to the fruits of work), so the wise should work without attachment, for the welfare of the society. (3.25)
The wise should not unsettle the mind of the ignorant who is attached to the fruits of work, but the enlightened one should inspire others by performing all works efficiently without attachment. (3.26)

Jai Shree KrishnaThis reference is not in context please. It runs counter to 2.47.

PS: Every body must be knowing about King Bruce and spider: Try and try again.


Who has not heard of Edison? Once he saw the potential of an invention, he went all out for it. It is not for nothing that there are thousands of patents after him.

rcscwc
09 September 2013, 06:28 AM
OK I see what is happening here. The very premise is wrong :)

This is not what the shloka says.

KarmaNye vAdhikAraste mA phaleshu kadAchana

You may make absolutely meticulous, sAttvic efforts with a specific aim too. This is ALL that is in "your hands"
It is OK to keep hopes too, to be optimistic, to anticipate, all is fine.
What happens, the outcome, may not be as per the expectation, because it is wrong to think you are in full control of the outcome.

In business language it is called the "risk factor"

KRshNa is asking you to surrender the ahamKar basically. A surrendered business professional is the best. Please see my previous post, just before this.

If your argument is, the "risk factor" or "things notin my control" is going to hamper motivation and impetus, I disagree, becs, as said earlier, if anxiety is not in your dictionary because ahamkAr isn't, your entire attitude and belief system itself will change drastically, so the question put forth will get this answer: N/A. Not applicable any more :)

Hare KRshNa

Risk factor was already explained by Krishna.

2.33 Now, if you will not wage such a righteous war, then, abandoning your duty and losing your reputation, you will incur sin.
2.34 Nay, people will pour undying infamy on you, and infamy brought on a man enjoying popular esteem is worse than death.
2.35 And the great Maharathis, who held you in great esteem, will now make light of you, thinking that you have desisted from battle out of fear.
2.36 And your enemies, disparaging your might, will speak many unbecoming words; what can be more distressing than this?
2.37 Either slain in battle you will attain heaven, or gaining victory you will enjoy sovereignty of the earth; therefore, arise, Arjuna, determined to fight.

smaranam
09 September 2013, 07:08 AM
praNAm ji


Another logical problem. Leaving everything in the hands of K is fatalism and amounts to abandoning the duty to perform.
( I wish you would type out Nandakishore's transcendental name and not call Him K :) )

I did not say "leave everything" it is "leave the outcome in His hands" not the efforts.
This is just a perfect strategic scenario that KRshNa is talking about. There is ample scope for strategy.

The only reasons a person would take up some action are
1. because it is their duty (so not allowed to leave world and beg)
abandonment of duty is a NO-NO.

2. because they see this as an act of compassion within the range of their calling


Arjuna was prepared to forego kingdom and live on begging. Abandonment of duty or running away from the calling are both out of place in this shloka.

There is an entire spectrum of risk cases going from low to high. The high-risk zone is for the liberated as long as it is their duty or calling.
The low-risk zone is for the ones who are attached to fruits. These latter ones will not go for the high-risk zone. We should not push them, they are not ready yet.


[For god's sake drug case was just an example. Can you not get another examples?]
Nope. This has become the favorite case-study.


Arjuna was to fight a war, where experiments are not allowed. First time right, every time or perish. A much more difficult regime.
This is why KRshNa wanted to liberate him first, before the war. Arjun's case lies in the high-risk zone of the spectrum.


Who has not heard of Edison? Once he saw the potential of an invention, he went all out for it. It is not for nothing that there are thousands of patents after him.
This is precisely what is embedded in 2.47 also.
See the potential - as long as it is a deed of goodwill
Go all out for it.

Persistence - comes afterwards.
If persistence is owing to Asakti - attachment, this is rAjas, and is also needed for the world to move.
If persistence is on the sAttvic plane, chances are, it is for the benefit of the Whole, not the individual.

KRshNa is not saying the whole world should be liberated overnight. Only a handful are near there. Others - just let them be. However, even the not-liberated ones can get help from Gita. Keep doing what you do with Asakti, but then, there are ways to slowly taper off that Asakti so these people can gradually gain manah: shAnti - peace of mind in situations.

It is not necessary that everyone should be liberated.
It is also not necessary that everyone should be in anxiety and having panic-attacks.

Gita is not for everyone, but it can certainly help the in-betweens.

_/\_

Hare KrshNa

rcscwc
09 September 2013, 07:29 AM
praNAm ji
This is precisely what is embedded in 2.47 also.
See the potential - as long as it is a deed of goodwill
Go all out for it.

Persistence - comes afterwards.
If persistence is owing to Asakti - attachment, this is rAjas, and is also needed for the world to move.
If persistence is on the sAttvic plane, chances are, it is for the benefit of the Whole, not the individual.

KRshNa is not saying the whole world should be liberated overnight. Only a handful are near there. Others - just let them be. However, even the not-liberated ones can get help from Gita. Keep doing what you do with Asakti, but then, there are ways to slowly taper off that Asakti so these people can gradually gain manah: shAnti - peace of mind in situations.

It is not necessary that everyone should be liberated.
It is also not necessary that everyone should be in anxiety and having panic-attacks.

Gita is not for everyone, but it can certainly help the in-betweens.

Hare KrshNa
Let us not get into the mine field of liberation, not yet, 2.47 has nothing to do with it.

2.47 speaks NOTHING about persistence too.

"It is not necessary that everyone should be liberated.

Gita is not for everyone, but it can certainly help the in-betweens."

Are you familiar with christian arguments. I am.

Bible also says only the chosen ones will be saved.

Xians claim Gita is not universal, as you have claimed it is not for everyone. They claim Jesus can help everyone, and bible is for all.

Gentleman, it is easy to discuss among friends, but on a christian it is very hard. One slip and you will be torn apart. Not only xians, but there are skeptics and atheists too.

But fortunately you are wrong here. Krishna wants to liberate all, if not now then as Kalki. And Gita is universal.

smaranam
09 September 2013, 07:32 AM
What I meant was, everyone is not at the same point at once. Some are closer to the truth others are far away. So adhikAr varies, but eventually everyone will get there, of course.

Ganeshprasad
09 September 2013, 07:46 AM
----


IMHO, icha was never brought into this shloka even indirectly.
--

No sir. Whatever the decision, the outcome was not phalheen.

In fact it is easy to grasp that karma has to be done. Food will not jump into your mouth unless you do the karma of putting it there.

This reference is not in context please. It runs counter to 2.47.

PS: -- Try and try again.


--

pranam

it seems to me you want to argue for the sake of argument, if you want to prove 2.47 and thus Krishna wrong be my guest.

who said anything about phalheen? you will always get result of any given action be it good or bad, success or failure, lord krishna is merely asking you to do your duty without attachment to its fruits, outcome will remain always an unknown, not in our hand there would be many factors involved. when one works in that frame of mind one will always be calm and would not be overly effected by its outcome.

desire is never far from any action, you are defeating your own arguments here, what is phal, what is phalheen if not desired why would you act in the first place?
one does not try without desires.

Ghana karmana gait; it is not as if Karma is difficult to do but what you fail to grasp is the outcome, sure you can put the the food in your mouth but what you don't know if it will give you indigestion or diarrhoea or what ever.

there is nothing out of context or counter in 3.25/26 in relation to 2.47 only thing differs is our perception of it. Krishna never contradicts, if you think he does then we might as well stop this conversation.



Jai Shree Krishna

Necromancer
09 September 2013, 07:47 AM
Namaste.
This shloka too is very subtle. It becomes hard to explain it to those who are driven by objective, like Western societies.

It is your duty to perform your task but you have no rights to duty thereof.

Why would any one develop a life saving drugs he he is not entitled to some profit therefrom?

A person is advised to first attain education and then become a householder. As a householder he utilises his knowledge for earning wealth ie artha. Why earning of wealth is removed then why would a man study hard?

Thanks in advance.
Namaste.

I haven't studied the Bhagavad Gita in years, but I am familiar with the shloka:

karmany evadhikaras te
ma phalesu kadacana
ma karma-phala-hetur bhur
ma te sango 'stv akarmani

Translation: You have a right to perform your prescribed duty, but you are not entitled to the fruits of action. Never consider yourself to be the cause of the results of your activities, and never be attached to not doing your duty.

I shall reply to your questions with another passage from the Gita:

Chapter 3 verse 27:

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni
guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
ahańkāra-vimūḍhātmā
kartāham iti manyate

The spirit soul bewildered by the influence of false ego thinks himself the doer of activities that are in actuality carried out by the three modes of material nature.

What Lord Krishna is saying, is to do your duty, but not be attached to performing that duty or the fruits thereof.

The moment one thinks "I am the 'do-er' and thus I am entitled to whatever rewards I get for doing it" puts them in the mode of ignorance.

It is not 'fatalism' to place everything in the hands of Sri Krishna, because ultimately, everything is anyway - we just need to accept this.

That's not to say we must become lazy and shirk our duty, because dharma is what keeps society and religion stable.

We all have to be 'well oiled cogs in the wheels of progress' for things to advance and not stagnate.

What Lord Krishna is saying, is not to become a greedy money-grabber or seek fame and fortune, but to do what one has to do in regards to their birth, their means and their destiny while keeping their heart and mind firmly established in Sri Krishna.

It is a shloka in praise of Karma Yoga. That's what it's all about.

Aum Namah Shivaya

rcscwc
09 September 2013, 07:52 AM
pranam

it seems to me you want to argue for the sake of argument, if you want to prove 2.47 and thus Krishna wrong be my guest.

who said anything about phalheen? you will always get result of any given action be it good or bad, success or failure, lord krishna is merely asking you to do your duty without attachment to its fruits, outcome will remain always an unknown, not in our hand there would be many factors involved. when one works in that frame of mind one will always be calm and would not be overly effected by its outcome.

desire is never far from any action, you are defeating your own arguments here, what is phal, what is phalheen if not desired why would you act in the first place?
one does not try without desires.

Ghana karmana gait; it is not as if Karma is difficult to do but what you fail to grasp is the outcome, sure you can put the the food in your mouth but what you don't know if it will give you indigestion or diarrhoea or what ever.

there is nothing out of context or counter in 3.25/26 in relation to 2.47 only thing differs is our perception of it. Krishna never contradicts, if you think he does then we might as well stop this conversation.



Jai Shree Krishna
Don't behave like a loser. If you are convinced then please lead the way.

I have clearly told the kind of arguments that you shall face if you try to write about Gita!!

If you are not able to remove the inconsistencies, you might as well abandon the discussion.

PS: You put food in your mouth believing that it is not poisoned or contaminate. If you have the least doubt you will leave it alone. You do know what the phal of a poisoned food, death.

Anyway you eat to satiate your hunger, not because it is your duty to do so.

Ganeshji, Krishna explained to Arjuna with lots of patience, never calling him like that. Getting exasperated is sure way of losing your reason. What if Krishna was impatient and exasperated? He would have taken up the fight and finished it quickly, but we would be deprived of the Great Message.

Ganeshji, please try to post on some xian forum. This one is quite a mild one, but post and see what happens.
http://christiansvsnonchristians.yuku.com/directory
I post only when I have first anticipated the arguments and got answers for them.
***
Necromancer, please study BG. It is a treasure trove and worth exploring.

Necromancer
09 September 2013, 08:59 AM
Necromancer, please study BG. It is a treasure trove and worth exploring.
Namaste.

I have before and I shall again. You didn't comment on what I said though.

It's just that being a Shaiva, there's a lot more stuff I got to study that I haven't yet, so revisiting Gita is way down on the list.

I just thought I'd reply to bring the subject back on topic and to stop all the bickering.

I see that didn't work.

Aum Namah Shivaya

Ganeshprasad
09 September 2013, 09:21 AM
Pranam


Don't behave like a loser. --

oh let me get this straight i am a loser because!!!!



I have clearly told the kind of arguments that you shall face if you try to write about Gita!!

i am not bothered by any kind of arguments, i wonder if these arguments are made to mask your own doubts weather you understand properly what Lord Krishna is saying?

You think karma is very simple to grasp in direct contrast to what krishna says 'gahana karmano gatih' The intricacies of action are very hard to understand.



If you are not able to remove the inconsistencies, you might as well abandon the discussion.



since i do not see any contradiction or inconsistencies in what Lord Krishna is saying i have nothing to remove, where else you have doubt in what Lord Krishna is saying worst still you think he contradict so i wonder what value is there for you to defend or discuss Bhagvat Gita?

Jai Shree Krishna

Ganeshprasad
09 September 2013, 09:36 AM
Pranam



PS: You put food in your mouth believing that it is not poisoned or contaminate. If you have the least doubt you will leave it alone. You do know what the phal of a poisoned food, death.

Anyway you eat to satiate your hunger, not because it is your duty to do so.

Oh please, this was your example proving how easy the Karma was in response i said one would not know the result of what one might eat.



Ganeshji, Krishna explained to Arjuna with lots of patience, never calling him like that. Getting exasperated is sure way of losing your reason. What if Krishna was impatient and exasperated? He would have taken up the fight and finished it quickly, but we would be deprived of the Great Message.

i am sorry now you have lost me



Ganeshji, please try to post on some xian forum. This one is quite a mild one, but post and see what happens.
http://christiansvsnonchristians.yuku.com/directory
I post only when I have first anticipated the arguments and got answers for them.
***
Necromancer, please study BG. It is a treasure trove and worth exploring.

I have no desire to engage with them, if the occasion required for me to defend Dharma i would do so, there is no need to go convince a hostile adversary.

Jai Shree Krishna

smaranam
09 September 2013, 09:55 AM
This thread is a perfect example candidate for BG 18.67

BG 18.67
idaḿ (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/i/idam) te (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/t/te) nātapaskāya
nābhaktāya kadācana (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/k/kadacana)
na (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/n/na) cāśuśrūṣave vācyaḿ (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/v/vacyam)
na (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/n/na) ca (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/c/ca) māḿ (http://bhagavadgitaasitis.com/m/mam) yo 'bhyasūyati

This confidential knowledge may never be explained to those who are not austere, or devoted, or engaged in devotional service, nor to one who is envious of Me.

rcscwc
09 September 2013, 08:59 PM
Pranam

oh let me get this straight i am a loser because!!!!

i am not bothered by any kind of arguments, i wonder if these arguments are made to mask your own doubts weather you understand properly what Lord Krishna is saying?

You think karma is very simple to grasp in direct contrast to what krishna says 'gahana karmano gatih' The intricacies of action are very hard to understand.

since i do not see any contradiction or inconsistencies in what Lord Krishna is saying i have nothing to remove, where else you have doubt in what Lord Krishna is saying worst still you think he contradict so i wonder what value is there for you to defend or discuss Bhagvat Gita?

Jai Shree Krishna

Ganeshji, you are clear, I am clear, almost all members are clear. Is a xian or a western atheist clear? Can you make it clear to them? That is the test.

You say I am masking my ignorance. I am not a scholar ar par with Shankara, not even at par with you, I admit. But this remark on a xian forum will be a mark of intolerance and impatience. Either my way or you are a fool. No, no, Ganeshji, that is not how it works elsewhere.

Did I not say in the OP what my thrust is? How to paraphrase to make it fit for a xian forum? Are you afraid of facing them? Can you discuss it with them without being overly defensive?

Ganeshgji, I will be direct. You have no desire to engage hostile xians/atheists, because you are afraid. Arjuna at least was not afraid of battle, he knew he was unbeatable in battle.

Whenever a xian expresses that he has no desire to engage hostile adversaries, he is immediately branded a loser. I have many times engaged in heasted discussions on bible and biblegod.

Necromancer
09 September 2013, 09:34 PM
Namaste.

I thought I would just drop this here, to help explain Karma Yoga and Shri Krishna's message in a way that Christians can understand it - it helped me to understand it - from a Western perspective:


On Work

You work that you may keep pace with the earth and the soul of the earth.

For to be idle is to become a stranger unto the seasons, and to step out of life's procession, that marches in majesty and proud submission towards the infinite.

When you work you are a flute through whose heart the whispering of the hours turns to music.

Which of you would be a reed, dumb and silent, when all else sings together in unison?

Always you have been told that work is a curse and labour a misfortune.

But I say to you that when you work you fulfil a part of earth's furthest dream, assigned to you when that dream was born,

And in keeping yourself with labour you are in truth loving life,
And to love life through labour is to be intimate with life's inmost secret.

But if you in your pain call birth an affliction and the support of the flesh a curse written upon your brow, then I answer that naught but the sweat of your brow shall wash away that which is written.

You have been told also that life is darkness, and in your weariness you echo what was said by the weary.

And I say that life is indeed darkness save when there is urge,
And all urge is blind save when there is knowledge,
And all knowledge is vain save when there is work,
And all work is empty save when there is love;
And when you work with love you bind yourself to yourself, and to one another, and to God.

And what is it to work with love?

It is to weave the cloth with threads drawn from your heart,
even as if your beloved were to wear that cloth.

It is to build a house with affection,
even as if your beloved were to dwell in that house.

It is to sow seeds with tenderness and reap the harvest with joy,
even as if your beloved were to eat the fruit.

It is to charge all things you fashion with a breath of your own spirit,
And to know that all the blessed dead are standing about you and watching.

Often have I heard you say, as if speaking in sleep, "He who works in marble, and finds the shape of his own soul in the stone, is nobler than he who ploughs the soil.

And he who seizes the rainbow to lay it on a cloth in the likeness of man, is more than he who makes the sandals for our feet."

But I say, not in sleep but in the overwakefulness of noontide, that the wind speaks not more sweetly to the giant oaks than to the least of all the blades of grass;
And he alone is great who turns the voice of the wind into a song made sweeter by his own loving.

Work is love made visible.

And if you cannot work with love but only with distaste, it is better that you should leave your work and sit at the gate of the temple and take alms of those who work with joy.

For if you bake bread with indifference, you bake a bitter bread that feeds but half man's hunger.

And if you grudge the crushing of the grapes, your grudge distils a poison in the wine.

And if you sing though as angels, and love not the singing, you muffle man's ears to the voices of the day and the voices of the night. -Khalil Gibran

*crying now because that is just so beautiful.

Aum Namah Shivaya

rcscwc
09 September 2013, 09:55 PM
nice one.

Ganeshprasad
10 September 2013, 04:42 AM
Pranam


-- Is a xian or a western atheist clear? Can you make it clear to them? That is the test.

No i can not and i will not, that is the nature of atheist or xian, you must have heard the expression 'Bhens agad Bhagvat' it is a gujrati expression.
the real test is to put in to practice teachings of Gita for one own self, that is dharma!



You say I am masking my ignorance.

i have said no such thing.



--- But this remark on a xian forum will be a mark of intolerance and impatience. Either my way or you are a fool. No, no, Ganeshji, that is not how it works elsewhere.

if i came across as intolerant i do apologise, however i have only stated what i perceived to be what Lord Krishna is saying. i have not called you a fool, no i would not try it elsewhere, where Hindu dharma is not appreciated.




Ganeshgji, I will be direct. You have no desire to engage hostile xians/atheists, because you are afraid. Arjuna at least was not afraid of battle, he knew he was unbeatable in battle.

Ok so i am afraid so be it, although i live in this hostile environment, in a xians country!!



Whenever a xian expresses that he has no desire to engage hostile adversaries, he is immediately branded a loser. I have many times engaged in heasted discussions on bible and biblegod.

So you are very brave and a winner.

Please take this advise as a friend, do not think Lord Krishna contradicts or else you will loose all your battles.

Jai Shree Krishna

rcscwc
10 September 2013, 05:44 AM
1. I don't know Gujarati.
2. For masking my ignorance, please refer to your #25.
3. If you don't feel like clarifying it enough to at least half convince a xian/atheist, then you wasted your time and mine. It is because you have not seen the BS spewed out by them. Even if you see it you might bear silently.

Ramdhari Singh 'Dinakar' - "Kshma shobhati us Bhujang ko jiske pass garal ho, usko kya jo dant-heen vish-heen vineet saral ho".

smaranam
10 September 2013, 06:16 AM
Namaste


It is falhin karam is not possible.
First I did not understand this line. Oh "phalaheen" , now I get it.
Who said phalaheen in 2.47?
KRshNa is saying you have no adhikAr == control on the fruits of action.

There is predictability and probability, we get used to it and therefore keep machine-like expectations. If input = A, output has to be B.
Depending on the action and field, this may not always be so 100% of the times.

Nobody is stopping you from keeping a goal, aim, temporary functional-expectation or hope.

Do we agree with this so far? There is no point in adding more, seeing how you have been responding to my posts.

Some christians and atheists are following BG 2.47 unknowingly. Are they and you aware of this?


Let us not get into the mine field of liberation, not yet, 2.47 has nothing to do with it.
Interestingly, it does. I AM NOT THE DOER. The one without ahamkAr can truly live BG 2.47, but others can gradually perfect this over time. Yajvanji calls it "skill in action"


2.47 speaks NOTHING about persistence too. I did not say it does. I said, "persistence comes afterwards" meaning, it is not within the subject range of 2.47

rcscwc
10 September 2013, 06:35 AM
I am aware that some xians/atheists follow maxims of Gita, mostly without knowing. They baulk at Law of Karma too, but when explained properly, many are convinced.

silence_speaks
11 September 2013, 11:10 AM
Dear rcscwc (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/member.php?u=1050),
:) BG 2.47 is not something for you to "do" about.
Its merely a statement of fact.
Its like the law of gravitation...

Its a statement of fact. For you to understand. Knowing it, do as you please.

"Fire Burns"... knowing this I may use it to cook food or I may burn my finger.
"Fire burns and do not think it will spare your finger" :).
I am still not saying that you should not put your finger in fire. I am just saying it burns your finger also. you may put your finger in fire.

What can be an argument against a statement of fact?

No one can claim that he is the author of all results ... he may start to do something and before he gets the result if his heart stops ... he is gone ... the result is not in his hands is a statement of fact.

No choice here in accepting / rejecting it.

Why would anyone do a karma if he does not expect results ? Well ... he need would not do. If shankara wrote a commentary on the Gita it was with an intention of ensuring that people understand. So there was an intention. There is no act thats done without expectation of a result.

The point stated is ... you may write anything, result is just not in your hands. Just as I may write all this ... with a lots of explanation ... and the result is not in my hands at all. The moderator may block it or the reader may not get whats said. so result is not in my hands.

I write ... with the intention to help someone ... result :) .... i dont have any control over it.

Love!
Silence

rcscwc
12 September 2013, 08:58 PM
IMHO. adhikar here means a right. Control is VASHA in Sanskrit.

silence_speaks
13 September 2013, 05:31 AM
:) explanation still holds true.