Pancharatra Agamas allow Upanayanam for women and Shudras?

[Omkara]

I came across this on the manasa-taramgini blog.

http://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2006/03/27/notes-on-early-pancharatra-vaishnavism/


Most interestingly the sanatkumAra saMhitA gives two forms of upanayanaM, the vedic form for dvijas and tantric agnimukhaM version for women and shUdras. On recieving that they may perform several rites, but the pA~ncharatric brahmin is still supposed to perform vaidika rites to various deities in addition to the internal pA~ncharatric sacrifices to vedic deities given in the rudra rAtra.

Does anyone have more information on this?

[sanathan]

Not sure about Pancharatra but I saw similar views in other places:


Women were classified as Brahmavadini and Sadyovadhini as per Parashara Smriti. Brahmavadini was a woman who studied the vedas after the Yajnopavitam sanskara (sacred thread ceremony) and got married later or stayed a bachelor in further pursuit of the vedic knowledge.



"yopanayanam krutwa pashcad vivaham karoti sa brahmavadini |
tathaiva ya prathamata upanayanam krutwa sadya eva vivaham vidhaya tato vedamadhite sa sadyovadhuh"

[Omkara]

Thanks. I will look this up in the parashara smriti.

[philosoraptor]

I've been told by ISKCON devotees that their initiation system is pancharatric in origin. However, as they've never given me any specific quotes from pancharAtra, I did not know what to think about that. The varAha purANa does mention a system of initiations for shUdra-s and, I believe also women, but it does not say that these included upanayanam and adhikAra for study of veda. I assumed it was a non-vedic initiation.

I've been told that sItA-devI wore sacred thread and recited gAyatrI mantra. However, I found no such references in the rAmAyaNa of vALmIki to her wearing yagnopavItam nor to reciting gAyatrI. I did find one reference to her doing sandhya prayers... obviously that could be interpreted as meaning she recited gAyatrI, but it's a little less explicit than I would like.

I'm told (again by a friend in ISKCON) that parAshra-smRiti declares the codes of manu to be not ideal for kali-yuga, presumably because it gives alternate regluations on some points. However, I don't have parAshra-smRiti and cannot verify these claims. However, I do know that Parimal Publications (www.parimalpublications.com) does publish a modern translation of PS, and also of the sAtvata-saMhitA (which I assume is different from sanat-kumAra-saMhitA).

That's about all I can say on the subject. Please let us know what your findings are. If parAshara does authenticate study of veda-s and initiation into sacred thread for women and shUdra-s, I would be might confused at this point, considering all the other contradictory evidence.

[brahma jijnasa]

I came across this on the manasa-taramgini blog.

http://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2006/03/27/notes-on-early-pancharatra-vaishnavism/

Does anyone have more information on this?

Not long ago in "Misunderstandings - VAD Threads" I have quoted from Mahabharata, Book 13, Chapter 131 in a conversation between Uma and Mahesvara, verse 45 and forward (http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/mbs/mbs13131.htm) :


śūdro 'py āgamasaṃpanno dvijo bhavati saṃskṛtaḥ

“by becoming an adherent of the agama scriptures, (or in other words, by taking initiation through the pancaratrika system), then a low-born sudra also becomes a brahmana.
...
In my opinion, if pious activities and good character are found in a sudra, it should be understood that he is better than a brahmana.
Birth, purificatory processes, study of the Vedas, and good birth are not the criterion for being a brahmana. The only criterion is one's behavior.
A person is born as a brahmana in this world simply as a result of his nature."

regards

[smaranam]

Namaste

I've been told that sItA-devI wore sacred thread and recited gAyatrI mantra. However, I found no such references in the rAmAyaNa of vALmIki to her wearing yagnopavItam nor to reciting gAyatrI. I did find one reference to her doing sandhya prayers... obviously that could be interpreted as meaning she recited gAyatrI, but it's a little less explicit than I would like.
If BAla Mukunda initiates His Beloved into gAyatri in this age of Kali Yuga (which means there need not be kali yuga internally), should there be any doubt that SitA who is Shri, who is Bramhan, wore sacred thread and recited gAyatri trikAla sandhyA?

_/\_

[Omkara]

I'm told (again by a friend in ISKCON) that parAshra-smRiti declares the codes of manu to be not ideal for kali-yuga, presumably because it gives alternate regluations on some points.
I found a translation of parashara smriti here- http://archive.org/stream/ParasharaSmriti/SriParasharaSmrithiPdf_djvu.txt
Yes, it does say so.
22. " In conformity to the character of the age, the rules of law (suitable) for men differ from age to age. The rules for the Krita differ from the Treta rules ; the Dvapara laws are not identical with the Kali rules.

23. " Self-mortification is the rule in the Krita age ; knowledge is said (to be the same) in the Treta ; in the Dvapara, (they) say sacrifice (to the gods to be) the sole (rule) ; and charity alone in the Kali age.

24. " For the Krita are suited the laws of Manu ; for the Treta, those by Gautama (are) prescribed ; for the Dvapara those by Shank and Likhita ; for the Kali, those by Parasara are prescribed.

On a cursory skim through i could find nothing about upanayanam for women. I will have to go verse by verse.

Sanathan, do you have the verse numbers? It would simplify matters.


I googled a bit and found this-
http://www.hitxp.com/articles/veda/vedic-education-women-school/


Panini on Female Vedic Scholars
Panini in his Ashtadhyayi refers to Kathi as female students of the Katha Shaakha of the Vedic school. He also refers to Bahvrichi as female students who are well versed in many hymns of the Rigveda.
Panini also mentions about the female students admitted to the study of Meemamsa and about chhatri (girl students) and Upadhyayi (women teachers).
Reference: V.S.Agrawala; India as known to Panini, Lucknow, 1953, page 287
This clearly shows that even during the times of Panini, Vedic education was imparted to both men and women.

I am still trying to verify this.
Also this-

The Harita Dharmasutra (of the Maitrayaniya school of Yayurveda) declares that there are two kind of women: Sadhyavadhu who marry, and the Brahmavaadini who are inclined to religion, they can wear the sacred thread, perform rituals like the agnihotra and read the Vedas.

Frankly, I'm confused.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Omkara]

I browsed some ISKCON related sites, and it seems that their initiation process is indeed taken from Sanatkumara Samhita. The sites did not offer much further detail though.

[Omkara]

Something I found interesting, though it is only tangentially related to the topic at hand-
http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/2000-July/001317.html

Regarding Manusmrti, I must mention that it is a composite, disorganized text, replete with text, replete with interpolations and dislocations of verses and in fact, some verses in the interpolations and dislocations of verses and in fact, some verses in the original text have evidently been dropped. I cite the following example (Manusmrti 2.66-67)"All the purificatory ceremonies (Samskaras) of women should be performed in"All the purificatory ceremonies (Samskaras) of women should be performed in due order and in due time without the application of Vedic Mantras. For women, the marriage ceremony marriage ceremony is the only Vedic ritual permissible, serving her husband is staying and studying under a Guru, and performance of household chores alone is her Agnihotra (a Vedic ritual)." i.e. a woman is not eligible for Yajnopavita, performance of Agnithotra and other Vedic rights or to Vedic Samskaras (except the marraige ceremony, where her husband is also present). Now, Kulluka Bhatta, a medieval commentator of Manusmriti records that some manuscripts available in his time had an additional verse following these two verses: Agnihotrasya shushrusha sayamudvasameva cha | Karya patnya pratidinamiti karma cha vaidikam || "Attending to the Agnihotra daily and assisting her husband in his duties at dawn and in the evening everyday in the performance of ceremonies are the Vaidika Karma of women." Now, I am sure this was the original verse and the former two (which contradict this one) are interpolations, because the Ramayana clearly record that Kaushalya Rani, Devi Sita etc. used to attend to the performance of Agnihotra everyday, and the Atharvaveda too prescribes that the primary responsibility of performance of daily household rituals lies with the wife (I do not remember the exact location right now but could look it up for you). There is no reason why somebody should have interpolated this 3rd verse, but it is highly probable that the first two verses were added to Manusmrti at a very early date, since they occur in all the manuscripts. Strictly speaking, the first verse even violates the context. The Atharvaveda clearly refers to the practice of Brahmacharya by women ("Brahmacharryena kanyaa yuvanam vindate patim" Kanda X)

[brahma jijnasa]

I browsed some ISKCON related sites, and it seems that their initiation process is indeed taken from Sanatkumara Samhita. The sites did not offer much further detail though.

In ISKCON the initiation process is carried out as described by Sanatana Goswami in his book Hari bhakti vilasa. If you read this book you will see which verses and scriptures he quoted there to explain how in Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition initiation should be carried out.
Sanatana Goswami was one of the leading disciples of Sri Caitanya who had the task of explaining such things in his Hari bhakti vilasa.

Note: Some sources say that the author of that book is Gopal Bhatta Goswami. There is controversy over the question of who is really the author of that book. I heard an opinion that is most likely that they together wrote that book.
regards

[Omkara]

In ISKCON the initiation process is carried out as described by Sanatana Goswami in his book Hari bhakti vilasa. If you read this book you will see which verses and scriptures he quoted there to explain how in Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition initiation should be carried out.
Sanatana Goswami was one of the leading disciples of Sri Caitanya who had the task of explaining such things in his Hari bhakti vilasa.

Note: Some sources say that the author of that book is Gopal Bhatta Goswami. There is controversy over the question of who is really the author of that book. I heard an opinion that is most likely that they together wrote that book.
regards


Thank you. Could you tell me where I coukd obtain a copy of this work in English?

And does Sri Sanatana Goswami quote anything to the effect that the initiation is equivalent to upanayanam and allowed for non-dvijas?

Thank you.

[sanathan]

Sanathan, do you have the verse numbers? It would simplify matters.




No, I don't have exact verse numbers, but I got the info from one of the Dvaita resources:

https://sites.google.com/site/harshalarajesh/rishike

Also I see following references on the matter in discussion:

1. The Rig Veda (10.109.4) says, "When a brahmin's wife wears the auspicious thread, she becomes very popular."

Ref: http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/print.php?itemid=3852

2. "History of Dharmasastra" of P.V.Kane has the following lines :

"An interesting question is whether women ever had upanayana performed, or whether they had to wear the sacred thread. Harita Dharmasutra, as quoted in the Smriti-candrika, says, 'There are two sorts of women. Those who are bramavadinis (students of sacred lore) and those that are sadyovadhus (who marry straightaway). Out of these, brahmavadinis have to go through upanayana, keeping fire, Vedic study and begging in one's house (under the parents' roof). But in the case of sadyovadhus, when their marriage is drawing near, the mere ceremony of upanayana should somehow be performed and then their marriage should be celebrated. Therefore bramavadini women had upanayana performed in the eighth year from conception, then studied Vedic lore and finished student-hood at the age of puberty.' "

[philosoraptor]

No, I don't have exact verse numbers, but I got the info from one of the Dvaita resources:

https://sites.google.com/site/harshalarajesh/rishike

Also I see following references on the matter in discussion:

1. The Rig Veda (10.109.4) says, "When a brahmin's wife wears the auspicious thread, she becomes very popular."

Ref: http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/print.php?itemid=3852


I checked this reference against Griffith's translation online. It doesn't appear to be saying anything about a wife wearing sacred thread:


1. THESE first, the boundless Sea, and Mātariśvan, fierce-glowing Fire, the Strong, the Bliss-
bestower.
And heavenly Floods, first-born by holy Order, exclaimed against the outrage on a Brahman.
2 King Soma first of all, without reluctance, made restitution of the Brahman's consort.
Mitra and Varuṇa were the inviters: Agni as Hota; took her hand and led her.
3 The man, her pledge, must by her hand be taken when they have cried, She is a Brahman's consort. She stayed not for a herald to conduct her: thus is the kingdom of a ruler guarded.
4 Thus spake of her those Gods of old, Seven Ṛṣis who sate them down to their austere devotion:
Dire is a Brahman's wife led home by others: in the supremest heaven she plants confusion.
5 The Brahmacari goes engaged in duty: he is a member of the Gods’ own body.
Through him Bṛhaspati obtained his consort, as the Gods gained the ladle brought by Soma.
6 So then the Gods restored her, so men gave the woman back again. The Kings who kept their promises restored the Brahman's wedded wife,
7 Having restored the Brahman's wife, and freed them, with Gods’ aid, from sin,
They shared the fulness of the earth, and won themselves extended sway.



2. "History of Dharmasastra" of P.V.Kane has the following lines :

"An interesting question is whether women ever had upanayana performed, or whether they had to wear the sacred thread. Harita Dharmasutra, as quoted in the Smriti-candrika, says, 'There are two sorts of women. Those who are bramavadinis (students of sacred lore) and those that are sadyovadhus (who marry straightaway). Out of these, brahmavadinis have to go through upanayana, keeping fire, Vedic study and begging in one's house (under the parents' roof). But in the case of sadyovadhus, when their marriage is drawing near, the mere ceremony of upanayana should somehow be performed and then their marriage should be celebrated. Therefore bramavadini women had upanayana performed in the eighth year from conception, then studied Vedic lore and finished student-hood at the age of puberty.' "

If this is true, then I would really like to know why we so no evidence of this in practice today, the recent past, or even in other mainstream smRiti-s. Has the dharma changed for some reason?

[philosoraptor]

Thank you. Could you tell me where I coukd obtain a copy of this work in English?

And does Sri Sanatana Goswami quote anything to the effect that the initiation is equivalent to upanayanam and allowed for non-dvijas?

Thank you.

Hari-bhakti vilasa is available all over the internet for free in English. I think rasabihari.com or krishna.com or one of the other ISKCON websites might be selling a good translation.

Just FYI, much to brahma-jijnasa's chagrin, I distinctly remember reading in HBV a reference to the ideal guru coming from a "noble family," thus implying that the early gosvAmI-s did not support the current ISKCON conception of initiating non-brahmins as brahmins. I'll see if I can find the reference.

[philosoraptor]

Hari-bhakti vilasa is available all over the internet for free in English. I think rasabihari.com or krishna.com or one of the other ISKCON websites might be selling a good translation.

Just FYI, much to brahma-jijnasa's chagrin, I distinctly remember reading in HBV a reference to the ideal guru coming from a "noble family," thus implying that the early gosvAmI-s did not support the current ISKCON conception of initiating non-brahmins as brahmins. I'll see if I can find the reference.


I found the reference - it's verse 38 of hari-bhakti-viLAsa:

atha visheShataH shrI-guror lakShaNAni

mantra-muktAvalyAm

avadAtAnvaya-shuddhaH svochitAchAra-tat-paraH |
AshramI krodha-rahito veda-vit sarva-shAstra-vit ||

"The Qualities of a Genuine Spiritual Master

In shri mantra-muktAvaLI it is said:

'A genuine spiritual master is saintly, born in a pure family, diligent in performing his prescribed duties, a follower of varëäçrama, devoid of anger, learned in the Vedas and scriptures, . . .'

That would definitely indicate that initiating people as gurus when they were born into impure families is not as per the directions of sanAtana-gosvAmI

[Omkara]

If this is true, then I would really like to know why we so no evidence of this in practice today, the recent past, or even in other mainstream smRiti-s. Has the dharma changed for some reason?

I have read some indologists say that women and shudras did undergo upanayanam and study the vedas until lakulisha brought about his reformation and forbade this, and the smritis were edited acvordingly.
I am still trying to verify the authenticity of panini supposedly referring to female students of the vedas in his Aahtadhyayi. If that is true tgen perhaps this theory has some merit.

[smaranam]

Namaste

There is a lady in Pune who teaches vedic chants such as Rudra and Purusha Sukta to [a handful of] women. She herself has undergone Vedpathsala schooling, conducts yajnas, and has undergone the thread ceremony, as well as had some girls receive the upanayana and related saMskAr. She also chants the GAyatri herself, but of course does not / cannot pass it on to her students. Her group chants Shri Sukta during navarAtri and Rudra during shrAvaN.

[brahma jijnasa]

And does Sri Sanatana Goswami quote anything to the effect that the initiation is equivalent to upanayanam and allowed for non-dvijas?

There is one smarta on this forums who wants to pollute you with his nonsensical arguments, as usual :) . He now claims that Sanatana Goswami did not believe that a person born in the impure family can become a guru. He is really astonishing and untiring. Where does he find all this pointless and silly arguments? He really has them in abundance.

Now, when we talk about "initiation for non-dvijas" it has sense only if a person is born with a brahminical qualities in any of families: brahmana, kshatriya, vaishya or shudra or even mleccha. I do not believe that Sanatana Goswami thought that a person who does not possess the qualities of a brahmana can be initiated. I hope that you understand that, and that all those VAD threads were not in vain.
As an introduction to the topic I recommend these three:
http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/24/331/
http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/15/108/
http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/23/105/

regards

[Omkara]

Namaste, what I am looking for is evidence from the pancharatra allowing upanayanam for women and shudras.

Since ISKCON claims its initiation process is based on sanatkumara samhita of the pancharatra and the non ISKCON blogger whose article I posted to start the thread also agrees that the said text allows upanayanam for women and shudras, there should be such evidence.

If you can find and post such quotes from the pancharatra, it will also have the effect of conclusively proving your position to fellow Vaishnavas.

[philosoraptor]

There is one smarta on this forums who wants to pollute you with his nonsensical arguments, as usual :) . He now claims that Sanatana Goswami did not believe that a person born in the impure family can become a guru. He is really astonishing and untiring. Where does he find all this pointless and silly arguments?

From hari-bhakti-viLAsa, which was written by shrI sanAtana gosvAmI.

Believe what you wish, but that's what he wrote. You can find many copies of this text online. I found it on a website called iskcondesiretree.com or something like that.

verse 38 of hari-bhakti-viLAsa:

atha visheShataH shrI-guror lakShaNAni

mantra-muktAvalyAm

avadAtAnvaya-shuddhaH svochitAchAra-tat-paraH |
AshramI krodha-rahito veda-vit sarva-shAstra-vit ||

"The Qualities of a Genuine Spiritual Master

In shri mantra-muktAvaLI it is said:

'A genuine spiritual master is saintly, born in a pure family, diligent in performing his prescribed duties, a follower of varNAshrama, devoid of anger, learned in the Vedas and scriptures, . . .'

Personally, I don't care one way or another what the gauDIya stance is on this. But from what I can see, early gauDIya vaiShNava-s did subscribe to the familial basis of varNAshrama, and the current conception of "varNa by quality not birth" (which lead to multiple, multiple degraded swamis worldwide) appears to be more of a modern, ISKCON invention. Any time you wish to discuss the superiority of "varNa by quality, not birth," I would be happy to review ISKCON's track record with you on manufacturing these "by quality" gurus.