Closed the thread in Vishishtadvaita forums?

[Sri Vaishnava]

Not that I mind, since I was nearly finished anyway (last 3 anuvAkas are not that important as they pertain to kAmya karmas), but was there a specific reason besides perhaps the multiple posting going on?

FYI, those write-ups were meant for a certain sri vaishnava forum group which I thought of posting here. I don't have a blog and don't intend to start one, so this was just an effort to share some vishishtadvaitic perspectives of the veda -- and I believe some people approved of it.

Whatever, your call.

[philosoraptor]

I don't understand why this thread was closed. It was clearly labeled as a Sri Vaishnava interpretation on the Rudra suktam, and was appropriately posted in the vishishtadvaita forum. No one was objecting to it publicly, and indeed, any objection would just amount to saying, "I don't like that because it contradicts my views, please don't post it, even though its in the Vaishnava forum."

If this isn't the kind of thing that we are supposed to discuss on HDF, that what is the vishishtadvaita subforum for?

[Believer]

Namaste,

I have understood that there is a fine line between posting of one's thoughts on a topic for discussion purposes and posting of voluminous data treating the HDF as a repository of Hindu data. The former is allowed and the latter is discouraged by the moderators, as it borders on posting of SPAM. Since we don't pay anything for the posting privileges, I would not make demands on the excessive use of system memory, the cost of which would come from the pockets of owners/moderators. Perhaps we should keep in mind that we are the (free) users (with moderator defined limits) and not owners of this site.

Pranam.

[philosoraptor]

Pranams,

If I may make a few small comments on this issue, please just hear me out on this.

We live in a world where, in spite of the internet and other popular media, information about authentic Hinduism remains very difficult to find. As evidence of this, consider where you would go these days if you wanted a translation of the Rig Veda. In most cases you have to rely on an on-line version of Max Mueller or an R.T. Griffith, both obviously non-Hindus. Or else, you have to go to a sectarian translation representing a relatively recent school of thought.

Now, suddenly, on HDF, we have a member who is willing to provide a translation and commentary of a part of the Veda according to a centuries-old, ancient, Hindu tradition. This is something that is not available on any other forum, and indeed, is not even available in many of the prestigious universities with large Indology departments.

This is not spam by any definition of the word. It's an invaluable treasure and should be thought of as such. This is the kind of posting that raises the bar of discussion, encourages intellectuals to come to and participate in these forums, and improves the standing of this Hindu community in the eyes of non-Hindu intellectuals. We can say that we are Hindus all we want. But if we do not encourage and respect the study and exposition of our literature, then we cede the right to be representatives of our tradition to the only people who have no inhibitions to its study - namely, the non-Hindu Indologist who will not be constrained by respect for our traditions.

I'm not saying this merely because of my own passing interest in vishishtaadvaita. Had this been a commentary according to a traditional advaita school, or even a traditional Shaivite school, my feelings would be the same. The scholarly exposition of traditional scholarship with regard to ancient literature should be encouraged on a Hinduism forum, not equated to spam.

I understand that there is a cost to maintaining a forum with large amounts of text. However, there are plenty of other postings with little or no intellectual content that could certainly be targeted for cost-saving measures. Instead of discouraging a treasure like this, consider the long-winded postings by some members starting off with such uninspiring phrases as, "In my opinion...." or "I believe...." and/or which seem to have no other purpose except to prolong an argument in which all issues have been explored to their logical conclusion. The forum isn't going to suffer for if we have 20 less of such postings each month. But, it would really be an opportunity missed if we didn't have the chance to read about a traditional perspective on our scriptures.

Now, I know the other argument is that scriptures like this are heard from a qualified guru, not read on a forum. I fully agree with that point. But, thanks to the internet, the translations of unqualified scholars have become the default norm, and Hindus are rarely if ever exposed to a scholarly, insider's perspective on the literature. The cat is out of the bag, so to speak. The willingness of some members to help restore the balance by providing traditional perspectives should be congratulated and encouraged. Both Omkara and I have made similar attempts in the past, with our "Rudra in the Vedas" and "Narayana in the Vedas" threads. Hopefully, no one saw that as spam.

I thank the moderators again for reopening this thread, and hope we can see more like it in the future.

[Believer]

Namaste,

Two brief comments:
1. When I am in somebody else's house, I live by his house rules.
2. Words can be made to mean anything we wish them to. If the moderators define voluminous amount of data as SPAM, then that is what it is, regardless of the technical definition of the word per a standard dictionary.

I have maintained a website for 15+ years and would not mind having people submit relevant original Hindu data for posting there. It could then be referenced in HDF through providing a link. That would be one solution - just a thought. Let us forget divergence, find solutions to any issues that come up and get on the path of convergence with one Hindu voice.

Pranam.

[philosoraptor]

I think there is a serious problem if an original commentary on a Rig Vedic sukta is considered "SPAM" on a Hinduism forum.

Perhaps we could get some clarification on this, because I am sure that I, for one, would not want to start a project on discussing something if it is merely going to be deemed as "SPAM" and the projected halted mid-way. For example, by the same token, is Omkara's discussion thread on "Shiva in the Vedas" (which I found very enlightening) considered "SPAM?" What about my discussion thread on "Narayana in the Vedas?" What about my discussion of varnashrama dharma in which I posted articles from a leading advaitin ascetic and followed it up with my own scripture-based explanations which backed up his views?

I have to say, I'm a bit shocked that you are pursuing the "SPAM" angle on this. Especially when SV stated clearly that this was his original writing, and that too authenticated by his gurus (which in my opinion makes it far more valuable than anything I've contributed as an independent seeker), I'm just not sure where you are coming from with this.

I would like to add (in case it matters, since Believer brought it up), that I, too, have moderated Hinduism discussion groups in the past, and this is the kind of thing I would have graciously welcomed. Never in my wildest dreams would I have imagined that an original multi-part commentary on a part of the Vedas could be construed as "SPAM." On the contrary, those are the kinds of contributions that raise the quality and reputation for a Hinduism group.

[philosoraptor]

Just FYI, here are the rules governing the issue of SPAM. I would appreciate it if someone could explain why SV's original commentary could be interpreted as SPAM, since it doesn't do any of these things:



No Spamming, blanketing, or canvassing of any kind is acceptable on this forum

Do not double-post or cross-post the same message in multiple forums.

Short messages (fewer than seven words or a couple of lines) that do not contribute to a discussion in a positive manner are also classified as “spam”.

Do not post for the sake of post count. Your posts will be removed if you are observed to be posting unhelpful or non-contributing messages simply to
increase your numbers.

Large cut-and-paste texts from other sites, without providing any of your own commentary on the material, is also considered “spam”. If you must
use material from other sites in discussions on this forum, please provide a link to that material instead.

[satay]

namaste everyone,

Let me start by saying that I value everyone's opinion here and your comments are valuable.

That said, it has never been a question of posts vs money. With God's kripa, HDF is well funded and does not need any financial help nor do I care about how much space/memory posts or members might be consuming here. In fact, we have unlimited space and bandwidth to use on this site so no issues there.

Now, the reason of thread closing was one of the rules of HDF. Going back many years, when we started with HDF, I found that members would sign up, dump large dumps of texts citing such sources as 'commentary by such and such my guru', 'explanations from their tradition' etc.

While this is well and good it was decided by senior members of HDF at that time that these types of posts i.e. large dumps of texts do not add any value as we are more concerned with Quality vs large dumps of texts or number of posts. Therefore, a general rule was made that large dumps of texts will be considered spam on HDF.

I try to do my job of moderation with closed eyes i.e. without bias. If I come across large dumps of texts, I apply the rule.

If you are now questioning the rules of HDF, that's a different discussion that I am not sure I want to have at this moment.

I hope this clarifies my actions.

Thank you for your understanding.

[philosoraptor]

So just to be clear - has it been determined that SV's posting on the Manyu Suktam is not in fact SPAM, as per the HDF rules posted above?

I only ask to determine if it is safe for me to invest time in posting the kinds of articles I like to post, i.e. "nArAyaNa in the veda-s," "varNAshrama part I-V," "wife is the guru of the husband," and so on. None of these are SPAM as per HDF rules, but then, neither was SV's Manyu Suktam posting. I have other ideas to present, but would refrain from doing so if the above is considered SPAM.

[satay]

Namaste,
Again, large dumps of texts are considered spam on hdf. That's the rule.

[philosoraptor]

Namaste,
Again, large dumps of texts are considered spam on hdf. That's the rule.

But his postings are not a large dump of text, as they cannot be found elsewhere (except the first anuvAka commentary), and they have purely original content.

I'm just asking because, if this is considered spam, despite it not meeting the criteria for such as spelled out in HDF rules, then almost anything could be considered spam provided that it exceeds some arbitrary length. Better to know that now before investing too much time in producing articles of similar content.

[Arjuni]

Namaste,

My thinking on this matter is that it is the F in HDF which is defended by this rule. Unless one is a university professor employed to educate others, or a guest speaker invited to give a lecture, one would not enter a room full of people and speak on a single topic for an hour continuously. We are a forum, i.e. a place for discussion and debate. Large blocks of text, especially when posted over a short period of time, serve more of a storage and reference purpose; they are excellent resources for members, but are cumbersome and do not encourage people to debate the material at hand. This monologue format seems the equivalent of a person claiming forum space to host a personal lecture series; such material would be more appropriately hosted on a blog or website.

Here are two suggestions, not to circumvent this rule per se, but to keep HDF a place for Hindus to actively engage in spiritual discussion with each other:

--Host the relevant verses and interpretations off-site, provide a link in a thread, and ask for opinions and discussion about the material. Cite only brief quotes in responses, to help keep the discussion on-track.
--Post the material little by little, perhaps one brief chapter each day. This practice would give members an appropriate amount of time to consider the profound meaning of each section and to formulate quality responses. It would also keep the thread active over a long period of time and encourage ongoing conversation, instead of making so many points at once that any reader must write a corresponding essay to reply.

I avoid long "dumps of text" because, when I see large masses of material, following one post after another, my impression is that the author does not wish to engage with HDF on the topic at hand, but to draw attention to his/her scholarship and/or opinions. I hope that members do adhere to this forum rule, understanding Satay's reasons for it, as I believe it to be an excellent one.

[philosoraptor]

Of course, there is a logic to posting the entire anuvAkam. Specifically, it makes no sense to post one mantra and invite discussion, when you cannot really interpret one mantra without the global context. Hence, posting the entire suktam makes sense, and I can see no more intelligent way for this to have been done. Posting one mantra and inviting discussion (which, on HDF, means 20+ replies which will mostly be personal opinions and attacks from individuals who never studied the source material), and then posting another mantra and repeating, is a far more useless exercise than posting the entire suktam.

Moreover, the author in question has engaged with HDF on several topics in the past. If he has any fault, it is that he has shown limited interest in engaging with people who get huffy and don't want to discuss facts and evidence. I guess you could argue that this means he doesn't want to engage with HDF. Or you could more appropriately argue that the doesn't want to argue with people for whom argument appears to be a way of life.

Thus, I'm not seeing the reasoning here, and I remain concerned that, in spite of the rules saying otherwise, almost anything positive and valuable could arbitrarily be deemed as spam. I checked the time stamp for the postings - they are indeed one after another, but that is consistent with it being a large article and divided into parts for brevity. That hardly makes it spam. If it were posted as one large article, would that have made it more acceptable for posting? Why or why not?

I'm still amazed that an original commentary on Rig Veda could be considered spam on a forum which purports to be, "for the positive presentation of Sanatana Dharma and we expect your participation to be positive and uplifting." SV's contribution was one of the most positive things I've seen on a Hinduism forum, ever. Would that we could have more such commentaries from different traditions.

[satay]

Namaste Phil
Again, large dumps of texts are considered spam. As Arjuni explained that's a monologue and better suites at your personal blog or site.

I understand that you may not like this rule but that's the rule.

Please do not post large dumps of texts on hdf.

That said exceptions have been made in the past whenever a member has approached me and explained their case. For example another member anadi has done this in the past.

[Viraja]

It is good to know about this rule - I will also be stopping my post on the thread 'Tamil speaking Rama Bhaktas - a treat!' which covers the Vijay TV series of 'Ramanin Padhayil' (the path traversed by Rama during Ramayana which still enshrines appropriate temples at precise locations).

Or, perhaps, I can take short notes on the remaining episodes and present them all at once when the show is over. The main reason I thought of translating the series is because I have read posts in the past exclaiming about the path Rama had traversed in Ramayan. But, I have to admit, there is the tour guide put up by Swami Krishnan on his 'Rama Anu Yatra' already available and that provides day-by-day info on the places he visited too, which I had linked in that thread. I guess I thought it would be interesting to present all information he would present in that series and started that thread. Now that I know it is not of best interest or adherence to HDF rules, I should stop it. :)

[satay]

namaste,

From what I can see, part of the problem is the wording of the rule itself. This feedback is prompting me to reexamine that wording. Currently it only talks about large dumps of text copy and pasted from other sites but the actual intent of the rule is to not allow 'any type of' large dumps of texts regardless of if the text was copy and pasted from elsewhere or not.

I am certainly open to changing the wording of this rule if it makes it clearer for new members.

Second problem I see that some of you might be used to other forums where the forum is actually just a 'part' of a bigger site that allows publishing of articles and blogs etc. HDF is not like that.

HDF is strictly a 'Forum' meant for discussion. There is no facility here to post articles or commentaries. This is why articles and such should be posted on your own blog or site. You are then free to post a link here on HDF under 'Dharma Related Websites' to that so that other members can read your article or monologue.

Third, Phil, with respect to your point about members posting personal opinions vs discussion based on authentic sources, since HDF is a forum for discussion, we have to allow room for people's opinions and personal experiences. While I admire your approach of always tracking everything back to a scriptural source, it is not a strict requirement of HDF that all members of the forum do that.

While I agree that posts and threads based strictly on scripture are of better value, I cannot demand all members to only speak/post when they can show proof from a scripture and otherwise stay silent. That's not HDF's requirement and it will never be as long as I am one of the mods.


I hope this clarifies the matter. I will endeavour to change the wording on the rule so that it is more in general terms.

Thanks for your feedback.

[Amrut]

Namste,


Not that I mind, since I was nearly finished anyway (last 3 anuvAkas are not that important as they pertain to kAmya karmas),...

No salutations to Admin !!!, who give us HDF for free and never ask for donations or any kind of financial help. Joining HDf is a privilege and not a right.

So you think that Mod or admin cannot delete the posts you already posted. This attitude is so humble.


Whatever, your call.

???

first of all, we accept all the rules before signing up. One of the rule says that Decision of Mods is final and should not be questioned.

Though it is natural to question, when one thinks that one is not trolling yet thread is closed, this issue, as pointed out of Satay ji, has to be sorted out in PMs or do you think Satay ji do not reply to PM or do you want to make it big?

Even if it is asked in public, there is a way to write. You have not even responded to Satay ji's replies even once.

Knowledge - (minus) humbleness = SAstra (not Sastra)

I had to write this as no one has pointed out and naturally Satay ji is not going to say, 'behave properly with me'.

I am not talking about the content, just the behaviour. If a member cannot behave properly with admin, then I cannot expect him to behave well with members. The problem with highly knowledgeable people is that they think whatever they do is right and when someone doe something they do not expect, their ego is hurt. When things do not go your way, then ... when someone does not share their line of thinking, then ...

These type of people are only comfortable with others, until people share similar line of thinking.


Whatever, your call.

No ending salutation too !!!. Does not a senior member and a mod Yajvan ji keep saying that one should use salutations? Phil ji explained that the content was original, which is logical explanation.

I did not want to write this as this someone may take it it in a wrong way. Yet, I had to write this since no member has stepped up to point out. Again, I am not talking about content, but the behaviour. HDF has taught me a lot and I am indebted to it and Satay ji.

Aum

[satay]

Namaste IS,

Just a few clarifications. I am not authority#1 on this forum. I am only the upholder of the rules. The rules were created by the members of this forum and my job is to only ensure that rules are followed. Since I am not a robot and still not very good at this job I must rely on other members to report the offending post(s), their advice and counsel. So there is no question of authority or ownership.

HDF has always belonged to its members and it always will be until at least I am one of the mods.

My only job is to uphold the rules and throw garbage out when needed.


Namste,
No salutations to Admin !!!,
Aum

[Amrut]

Namaste Satay ji,

You are very humble

Hari OM