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yajvan
21 November 2013, 03:09 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté
 
If we look to the 2nd chapter of the bhāgavad gītā , kṛṣṇa-ji informs us in the 12th śloka that there never was a time when He was not (akuṇṭha¹) nor that I was not. This suggests if He or I have always been, then there never was a birth ( or death) and there is never a time when we will cease to be.

Now fast forward to chapter 4 and look to the 5th śloka. Kṛṣṇa-ji informs arjun that many births (ājāta¹) have passed for Him and also for arjun.
How can one rationalize this knowledge kṛṣṇa-ji offers? In chapter 2 He informs us we have always been and implies no beginning or end (birth or death), yet in chapter 4, He says He ( along with arjun) has been born (ājāta) many times.

How is one to think about this ?

iti śivaṁ

akuṇṭha -eternal
ājāta - born

rama_t
21 November 2013, 04:03 PM
As a soul you are immortal.
In Chapter 2: Sloka 13..HE explained that we transmigrate from body to another.

harih
24 November 2013, 10:09 PM
In Chapter 2 itself͵ elsewhere Sri Krishna says Atha Chainam nityajaatam nityam vaa manyase...

Arjuna does not have the Smriti of past births͵ like Sri Krishna had.

According to Sri Krishna͵ it does not matter so much whether Arjuna believes in an Atman beyond life/death͵ rather he wants intellectual consistency from Arjuna to any one chosen philosophy.

yajvan
25 November 2013, 12:49 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté



How is one to think about this ?

I will share the way I perceive the ~differences~ and how I was taught. First and foremost we need to be mindful that kṛṣṇa-ji offers knowledge to arjun after he asks in chapter 2, verse 7 , tell me decisively what is good for me, I am thy śiṣya ¹ ( pupil , disciple). He puts himself in the hands of kṛṣṇa-ji.

Based on this it is now the responsibility for kṛṣṇa-ji to unfold the knowledge for arjun to comprehend. Kṛṣṇa-ji informs him from a level of compassion that there nothing to grieve for. He begins the art of instruction , that of the most capable guru. He then tells arjun the wisdom of all the upaniṣads in one śloka: that there never was a time when He was not (akuṇṭha¹) nor a time when arjun was not.

This is the wisdom of a great teacher; in one swoop he informs arjun of the highest knowlege, a vision of infinity and makes it ~personal~ to arjun. This gets arjun's undivided attention.

Now pending arjun's level of development, this could have been the only thing that kṛṣṇa-ji would have to had said if arjun's consciousness was perfectly ripe. What do I mean? Some aspirants need only a word or two and all is accomplished. Others are still ripening, and knowledge and experience is needed; and there others that are totally unripe and will take additional time overall.

So, kṛṣṇa-ji's upadeśa¹ begins with the ultimate truth for arjun's intellect to take in. Now pending arjun's questions and comprehension, kṛṣṇa-ji effortly adjusts the offering so arjun benefits the most. That is why as we get to chapter 4, kṛṣṇa-ji speaks of birth from another point of view; something that arjun will recognize and appreciate. He is explaining from another angle for arjun to comprehend. We know that arjun is paying attention because he asks kṛṣṇa-ji 'how am I to understand this, that you proclaimed this (yoga) in the beginning ? '. This informs us of a few things; Arjun has not come to realize the infinite and unbounded status of kṛṣṇa-ji. If arjun is thinking earlier and later, or birth and death he is of the opinion that kṛṣṇa-ji's form is limited to the body and its coming and going.

He informs arjun of His true status/nature in the 6th verse of chapter 4. So, what we are viewing is a master teacher at work and using a teaching method that opens up one's awareness to the infinite. The bhāgavad gītā not only gives insight to the wisdom to unfold a fully developed person, but that of a most robust teaching methodology.

iti śivaṁ

words

śiṣya and ~ śiṣṭa~ taught , directed , ordered , commanded ; the student is taught, directed, etc.
akuṇṭha -eternal
upadeśa - instruction, pointing out; initiationiti śivaṁ