You are GOD - part 1

[hinduism♥krishna]

Namaste,hare krishna.[ Here I WANT TO SHOW "BHAGAVATAM" IS ADVAITIAN VAISHNAWA'S SCRIPTURE. Indeed this thread is in right forum as it is as per peradvaitian vaishnawa perceptive ]

Who I am ? It is the most hidden question in hindu dharma.VEDA SAYS " AHAM BRAMHASMI ". I am bramhan . bramhan can't be described .However it can be described indirectly by negation of all mind thoughts .The intersecting fact about bramhan is that whatever we think about it , it is not like that at all (neti neti ).Even knower of bramhan can not describe it .

There are different sects like dwaita ,achintya bhedabheda ,semi dwaita etc , which claim their origin in veda and in vedic scriptures.But advaita is totally different from this . It is entirely based on " abheda darshan ".The main motto of all sects is to destroy "anatma mind" due to which soul thinks himself as a jiva { jiva means consiousness which is formed due to mind ,intellect and various pranas } . The mosksha is nothing but to destroy "adnyana".But they(sects) have forgotten this due to maya .eg , IN bheda shruti , veda says there is creation of universe from bramhan or ishwara.But it doesn't confirm this as absolute reality .Again in abheda shriti , it says everything is bramhan , bramhan is unchangable without a second.There is no any transformation in bramhan .Creation of anything is not possible ever. Veda says there is no creation or dissolution or liberation or bondage .All are mind's game,maya. It's the ultimate knowledge.

According to my view(scripture's view too), all paths finally coincide with advaita.Vedic sages knew that for a common man ,this world is actually present .We can see it ,experiance it .For that ingnorant person , it is more than impossible to accept this world as bramhan and atma as bramhan only .Even though veda states differences but finally according to neti netilogic,proves that there is no any difference like thing at all, difference is maya and veda merges all differences in what remains after negation of everything ,which is often named as "bramhan".

Now let's come to actual point , bhagavt purana - 12th canto-5th chapter- last discourse of shukadeva to parikshit.

It is very interesting to know what are that final words of bramhadnyani shukadeva. That words are the essence of all veda , upanishadas and puranas. That is the "vidnyana" - supreme knowledge {bramhavidya}.Finally shukadeva instructs 'direct advaita' knowledge to parikshita.

"shri shuka uvach , atranuvarnyate abhikshnam....bramha rudrah krodhah samudbhavah " (1):

{IN this purana , there is mention of vishwatma shri hari everywhere.Bramha and rudra are not different from shri hari ,they are his manifestations as "prasad lila " and "krodha lila"}

"twam tu rajan marishyeti.....devatwam na nankshyasi"(2) :

{ hey king , give up this animalistic'aviveka'that you will die ,just as this body was not before ,now it is born and then it will get destroyed ,in the same way you were not before ,now you are born and then at the end you will die - this is not true at all.}

"na bhavishyasi bhutwa....yathanalah " (3) :

{Just as sprout takes birth from a seed and then generating a new seed,in the same way,from one body another body is created .But you are not formed from anything nor You will take birth again in the form of your sons and grandsonsRather,you are entirely distinct from the body,in the same way that fire is distinct from its fuel.}

"swapne yatha......atma hyajomarah" (4)

{ In a dream one can see his own head being cut off and thus understand that his actual self is standing apart from the dream experience. Similarly, while awake one can see that his body is a product of the five material elements. Therefore it is to be understood that the soul, is distinct from the body it observes and is free from birth and death , immortal. }

"ghate bhinne ghatakash.....jivo bramha sampadyate punah"(5)

{ When a pot is broken, the portion of sky within the pot remains as the entire sky, just as before.But because of disappearance of portion of sky within pot one thinks that it has been connected to entire sky -but in reality, it was already connected to entire sky, In the same way, when the gross and subtle bodies die, it is just like jiva has become bramhan.(In reality jiva was already bramhan .His abramhata is just a false appearance.)

"manah srujati vai....maya tato jivasya sansrutihi" (6)

{ The material bodies, qualities and karma are created by the material mind for soul. That mind is itself created by maya (avidya), and thus in reality only maya is responsible for jivahood of soul.}

"snehadhishtanavartyagni sanyogo.....rajah satwo tamo vkrutya jayate atha vinashyati."(7)

{ A lamp functions as such only by the combination of its fuel, vessel, wick and fire. Similarly,as long as soul is connected with karma ,mind ,body and pranas ,he remains in cycle of birth and death and from three gunas,he acts as if he is created,nurished and destroyed. }

"na tatratma swayamjyotiryo...dhruvoanantopamastatah" (8)

{ But just as because of disappearance of flame of lamp ,tatwa of agni is not destroyed,in the same way self luminous soul is not destroyed.Because that soul is beyond karya-karana,manifestation and unmanifestation,he is support of all things like sky ,soul is ever existing,omnipresent and ananta(endless).Really example of atma is atma only.}

"evam atmanam atmasthamatma naivamrusha prabho,budhyanuman garbhinya vasudevanuchintaya" (9)

{ dear King, by constantly meditating upon the Vasudeva, and by applying clear and logical intelligence, you should himself realise your self in the inner situated soul }

"chodito vipravakyen na twam dhakshyati takshakah, mrutyavo nopadhakshyanti mrutyunam mrutyum ishwaram." (10)

{ Look, you are death of death itself. You are god himself . The snake-bird Takshaka, sent by the curse of the brahmana, will not burn your true self.what about that snake? even death itself and agents of death can not come near you }

"aham bramha param dham bramhaham paramam padam,evam samikshya chatmanamatmanyadhaya nishkale " (11)

{ you should meditate (chintana) like this :'I am all pervading bramhan ,I am all pervading parabramhan only .In this way,you should do your self steady in ever-lasting,endless bramhan. }

"dashantam takshakam pade lelihanam vishananaihi,na drakshyasi shariram cha vishvam cha pruthagatmanah " (12)

{ At that time he will approch you with his poison-filled fangs and bites your foot. Nothing matters .By risigning yourself in atmaroopa, you will not see your self different not only from this body ,even from this entire universe. }


yes , indeed aham bramhasmi .


ram krishna hari

-------------------------
hinduism♥krishna

[the sadhu]

Namaste

There was never anything to ever exist but God. This does not mean "you" are God, it means that there was never a you to ever exist, you are figment of a brains imagination.

One thing is more dangerous than no knowledge is little knowledge, because its just enough to get in trouble.

I thought I was God too, but that Maya just leads to an inflated ego. I in reality do not exist, nor do you, God is the only reality.

[Believer]

Namaste,

The thread title confers the title of being a GOD on me and my day is going rather merrily knowing that I am GOD. :)

Really? Is that what the study of scriptures is all about - doing mental gymnastics with various definitions to prove that I am GOD? In high school we used to do geometry theorems and when a concept was proven, we used to write QED with the last line of the proof. Perhaps a QED should be added to the above post for the sake of completeness.

Come join us in practicing Bhakti yoga and make something out of this fleeting life. Delving into extrapolations, and interpolations, and deductions and QED'ing of spiritual matters is a waste of precious life. Everything of any significance has already been found by our Rishis and Acharyas and documented by brahmans. Constantly banging my head against the wall brings relief only when I stop doing so. Peace of mind will come only when complicated mental gymnastics are discarded in favor of real Bhakti.

Pranam.

[jopmala]

namaste

before you want to discover new ideas, you need to study the scriptures deeply.

[hinduism♥krishna]

namaste

before you want to discover new ideas, you need to study the scriptures deeply.

Yes, I have studied bhavata purana and upanishads very deeply.

"aham bramhasmi" is the summary of all scriptures in just 3 words. This statement is not for ordinary people. It is not the statement which would be understood at intellectual level. This is understood by people who have progressed in bramha consiousness . This is the most hidden and deeper knowledge. Guru instructs this knowledge to his shishya only when he is elligible for it.

parabramhan shri krishna says in uttara gita :

". If a man practise asceticism and severe austerity for a thousand years, standing on one leg only, he cannot realize one-sixteenth part of the benefit gained by Dhyana Yoga (meditation). Those that constantly chant the four Vedas and read other religious works and yet fail to realize “I am that Brahman”, they are like the spoons that are used for every cooking operation, but yet remain without a single taste of the foods they prepare ."

Ram krishna hari..

[hinduism♥krishna]

Namaste,


The thread title confers the title of being a GOD on me and my day is going rather merrily knowing that I am GOD.

Then what should be the title ? 'You are god and tat twam asi, are these different? 'You are god' and 'aham bramhasmi' are these different ? This title is not intended for ordinary people. This is for people who are progressed in consiousness.I know ordinary people won't understand the title and will surely misunderstood.

Ishwara is bramhan. There are some pseudo bramhadnyani, who thinks that as ishwara is vyakta roop of bramhan ,he is not ultimate bramhan.However they don't know that though bramhan is orginally beyond form and formless, his formless nature doesn't get tainted when he manifests as vishnu. Modifaction or manifestation is not real at all.

I know what our sages want to say. I know the hidden purpose of bheda and abheda shruti and various puranas which describe various gods as supreme bramhan. I don't want your lamp of knowledge in front of sun of scriptural vidnyana.


Shri krishna says to arjuna in uttara gita :

34. The Yogins who contemplate me with one mind as “tat twam asi"("I am he”) are saved from the sins collected during a hundred millions of Kalpas.


35. As the Akasa of the pot is absorbed in the Mahakasa when the pot is broken, so also the ignorance- bound Jivatman is absorbed in the Paramatman when ignorance is destroyed.

36. He who has been able to acquire the knowledge of the Tattvas that the Jivatman is absorbed in the Paramatman, even as the Akasa of the Pot is absorbed in the Mahakasa, becomes undoubtedly free from the chain of ignorance, and goes into the sphere of the Light of Supreme Knowledge and Wisdom.

37. If a man practise asceticism and severe austerity for a thousand years, standing on one leg only, he cannot realize one-sixteenth part of the benefit gained by Dhyana Yoga (meditation). Those that constantly chant the four Vedas and read other religious works and yet fail to realize “I am that Brahman”, they are like the spoons that are used for every cooking operation, but yet remain without a single taste of the foods they prepare .

Hare krishna !

[ShivaFan]

Namaste

Among the world and planets where the Ishwara is, then surely there will be the Lord's devotees, for this is the attraction of the Lord. How can it not be? If the Lord was dry, the thirst cannot be quenched. But Ishwara is like a great river, like a Ganga, an Ocean of Milk, that flows across the lands and everywhere we live. And so how can there not be devotees? And great among them are those simple people who are dedicated to Him solely as His servant.

So this Bhakti is a path of single-mindness, which is a "religious" form of being single-pointed. What is shared and develops among devotees is this single-pointedness though what they do may vary. For example, one may go to the temple to see the Lord where the murti has a Name, and feel sad even from separation from the Lord. Another may water Tulsi everyday. Another may serve yet another devotee.

This actual service may vary. It does not mean one must sit in a cave and meditate, though you could do that too. Life is full of action, as is said by the Lord of Action. So, while devotional service is a form of focus, devotional service does not mean shutting out reality.

Reality even comes in more focus, as this seva to the Lord brings out a broader vision, that is natural because you look into the Lord and the Lord is very broad to us simple jivas.

Materialists cannot have ekanti. But a devotee can. Looking here and there, they think You Are That. I know that is not exactly the same as I Am That, but sometimes it can be. If the Lord is speaking, the Lord may tell the servant, I Am That, pointing to a child. The devotee may agree, thinking in the mind You Are That, remembering the instruction of the Lord in his mind Who said to the servant I (Ishwara) Am That.

I am not at that level, however. I am one of those common people who, while not a materialist, simply wants to have fun and adventure. But who finds the most adventure is in Hinduism. Yes, I am an idiot, that is ok, but nor do I insult Hinduism just because I am not sitting in a cave. Every day, even sleep, is full of adventures. I also like to associate with devotees, then the best adventures come. There certainly never is a boring moment, if you are a Hindu.

I admire your devotion to the Supreme Brahman.

Om Namah Sivaya

[hinduism♥krishna]

Bhakti of shri krishna in oneness with him ( with conviction of "aham bramhasmi) is the highest type of bhakti. Because he is a dnyani bhakta and krishna says in gita that dnyani bhakta is most dear to him. !

parabramhan krishna says :

The Yogins who contemplate me with one mind as “tat twam asi"("I am he”) are saved from the sins collected during a hundred millions of Kalpas.

Hari Hari Hari. !!

[the sadhu]

NaMaste
God is the true and only reality for sure, but that does not mean that you are God... this is mixing up Maya and Brahman. it means that "you" don't exist, ONlY God exist..

If you think about it, to say "I am God" is pure duality, because there is God, and an "I" to be God, that is two things.
But to proclaim "there is no me, only God" is to negate such a dualism, and establish the inner knowing of the non-dual reality. Advaita is Non-duality after all.

However if you are real, like how they describe it in VA then you could only be a small part of God anyways..


Peace brother, none the less it shows advancement to be thinking on such a grand level.

[Beano]

namaste

before you want to discover new ideas, you need to study the scriptures deeply.

"The life force, the divinity, the Self or the Lord in me is the same in all. Recognizing this oneness with the meeting of the palms, we salute with head bowed the Divinity in the person we meet. That is why sometimes, we close our eyes as we do namaste to a revered person or the Lord – as if to look within. The real meeting between people is the meeting of their minds. When we greet another, we do so with namaste, which can also mean "may our minds meet," indicated by the folded palms placed before the chest. The bowing down of the head is a gracious form of extending friendship in love and humility"

I have read a great deal of religious scripture, but I know, (which is stronger than 'believe') that the true and astonishing 'god spirit' - divinity - is with me, and you -and we share in it even if we cannot read at all, and whatever books may tell us.
In me are all the wonderful divine qualities that I might ever seek for in any god and any book 'about' god, - in those most loving, creative and gentle aspects of my own nature. I did not create them for myself, and I see echoes of them everywhere in the world. I cannot be separate - I am in the world and of the world, and every part of me is a part of the universe. Every aspect of my thought and understanding - is here with you and me and the whole world. We are bound together in the same divinity. We are one and in that one is divine perfection as we can experience it, know it, and understand it.

[Anirudh]

Namaste HDF,

I hope readers would take my comments in the positive spirit and ponder on the information. This thread reminds me an incident (read during my childhood) of the past era. Few believe it as real life incident and few consider it as folklore.

I am only interested in sharing the message because some time ago I too was possessed by the Maaya born out of the three words used in the OP. Thanks to kind and learned members of this forum and thanks to kindness of Shree Raama Chandra Prabhu I got relieved from that Maaya. Nevertheless know for sure have got a long way to go before I reach his lotus feet, though mentally have done Saranagathi from my part.



There is a very famous legend that is associated with Auvaiyar (also Auvayar) (Tamil: ஔவையார்), a prominent female poets/ethicist/political activist of Sangam period (Tamil literature), and Naaval Pazham (Jambu) in Tamil Nadu. Auvaiyar, believing to have achieved everything that is to be achieved, is said to have been pondering her retirement from Tamil literary work while resting under Naaval Pazham tree. But she is met with and was wittily jousted by a disguised Lord Murugan (regarded as one of the guardian deities of Tamil language), who later revealed himself and made her realize that there was still a lot more to be done and learnt. Following this awakening, Auvaiyar is believed to have undertaken a fresh set of literary works, targeted at children. These works, even after a millennium, are often among the very first literature that children are exposed to in Tamil Nadu schools.

from wikipedia

[hinduism♥krishna]

NaMaste
God is the true and only reality for sure, but that does not mean that you are God... this is mixing up Maya and Brahman. it means that "you" don't exist, ONlY God exist..
Yes I(jiva) don't exist , only god (bramhan) exists . Jiva is just a image in the mirror while bramhan is infront of mirror. When mirror (jiva) gets disappeared , jiva gets his own identity as atma /bramhan. He doesn't think I didn't exist before .In fact jiva was never in bondage ever . Liberation and bondage are just imaginations of the maya ( avidya ).The same thing ,shukadeva said . ;)


If you think about it, to say "I am God" is pure duality, because there is God, and an "I" to be God, that is two things.
But to proclaim "there is no me, only God" is to negate such a dualism, and establish the inner knowing of the non-dual reality. Advaita is Non-duality after all.

:D Don' ever find non-duality in just words .Non-duality can not be described in words. When one say " I am bramhan or I am god " ,it doesn't mean jiva is bramhan .It is atma is bramhan .To describe more ,upanishadas say "there is nothing other than self "




Peace brother, none the less it shows advancement to be thinking on such a grand level.
Every man ,who didn't understand the thing , says like this .:D

Hare krishna hare ram:)

[hinduism♥krishna]

HARE KRISHNA , Namaste. { note: I am not the devotee who entangled in name and form which are the supports of maya .For me "I am god " and "I am bramhan " are not two different things. }

I am just giving a light on devotion of shri krishna .Devotion to shri krishna is not an ordinary devotion consisting duality between devotee and bhagavan. It is the oneness .It is the constant meditation on krishna's nirguna or saguna form thinking the self is in all beings and all beings are in the self. "Abheda dristi " is the support of devotion to atmadeva shri hari. The dnyani devotees are those who contemplate hari with one mind as “tat twam asi"("I am he”) [uttara gita].

The devotess are those who serves exclusively with Yoga of devotion, goes beyond these qualities and qualifies to become Brahman.If this devotion is offered to krishna, by making a distinction between krishna and the universe, it becomes wanton. So know him by an unswerving mind that he is not distinct from the universe. As a speck of gold affixed to a gold ornament does not become distinct from it, so think yourself to be not different from the universe.

Even the smallest wave is not different from the sea; so the Self is not distinct from God. If one attains this blissful state of vision of one’s identity with God, it is the highest form of devotion. This vision is the quintessence of knowledge and Yoga. Just as the mutual relation between the sea and the cloud has a continuous flow, so his mental attitude remains the same.
Just as there is no joint connecting the mouth of the well with the sky, similar is his oneness with the Supreme Self . ;)

Just as the Sun’s splendour remains the same from his disc upto the reflection, the idea that I am Brahman carries on the top and disappears when the mind identifies itself with the Supreme Self. Just as a piece of salt dissolves in the sea, or the fire becomes extinguished after the grass is burnt, so in the absence of a notion of distinction, knowledge also ceases to exist. The false notion that the devotee is on this shore and krishna is on the yonder shore (of the sea of existence) disappears and what remains is the eternal union between them . Then all talk about the conquest of gunas ceases, because the gunas also cease, when both of them unite in close embrace. this is what is known as the Brahmic state. He who worships hari with devotion, alone attains to it. I would add that the Brahmic state weds krishna's devotee, who is endowed with the above-mentioned characteristics. Just as the flowing water of the Ganga has no other destination but the sea, so whoever serves hari, with the vision of knowledge, becomes a great devotee (literally a jewel in the diadem of the Brahmic state)
This Brahmic state is also known as the sayujya mukti (i.e. absorption of the Self in the Supreme Self or the fourth aim of human existence). Hari's worship is the ladder by which devotee can reach him. Beyond sayujyata, there is ultimate bramhan ,the bramhan which is beyond perishable and imperishable ,beyond vyakta and temporary avyakta.

But do not think that krishna is different from the means of attaining him. Do not entertain the idea that self is distinct from Brahman.


Hare krishna hare krishna ,Hare ram hare ram :)

[the sadhu]

Namaste
One way or another, the reality is Brahman. What creates a feeling of seperation is a brain(which in turn produces an ego)
To be liberated we have to subdue the ego so we do not feel such seperation.

How are we supposed to subdue the ego (that causes the imagination of a jiva) if we go around saying "I'm God", it sounds arrogant no matter how much reason and logic people put behind it.
and there will always be a never ending stream of people ready to challange such a grandiose claim.
More over, God is always undivided ,infinite, and whole. What speaks is a brain and body which are limited qualities of Brahman. Upadhis.

In the end everything will still be Brahman, but "me" and Brahman is still two.
when Brahman is known there is no more me or anything else, it is often described as formless or non-dual
Ramana maharshi once said
"There is no jnani(knower) only jnana(knowledge)"

[Believer]

Namaste Beano,

This topic must be too close to your heart to have brought you out of hibernation. :)

We are one and in that one is divine perfection as we can experience it, know it, and understand it.
I am not sure I quite understand the spiritual meaning of this one sentence summary. Care to explain?

Pranam.

[the sadhu]

One way or another, the reality is Brahman. What creates a feeling of seperation is a brain(which in turn produces an ego)
To be liberated we have to subdue the ego so we do not feel such seperation.

How are we supposed to subdue the ego (that causes the imagination of a jiva) if we go around saying "I'm God", it sounds arrogant no matter how much reason and logic people put behind it.
and there will always be a never ending stream of people ready to challange such a grandiose claim.

In the end everything will still be Brahman, but "me" and Brahman is still two.
when Brahman is known there is no more me or anything else, it is often described as formless or non-dual
Ramana maharshi once said
"There is no jnani(knower) only jnana(knowledge)"

[rama_t]

Namasthe All

In BG.. Did Lord Shri Krishna ever say to Arjuna..you are also GOD..or there is no difference between You and me...? I thought in the last Sloka also Shri Krishna told Arjuna to totally surrender to Him to be with Him Always.

I did not study the BG thoroughly.

IMO, Aham brahmasmi is the feeling a devotee gets when he is closer to Lord.

[jopmala]

namaste

1. just like one wave of sea can not become a whole sea

2. just like a ray of sun can not become the sun

3. just like a single spark can not become the ball of fire

4. just like dahi can not become milk

In the same way jiva can not become brahman but yes it is created out of brahman as described in Srimad Bhagavat Gita
1.“ O Arjuna, this is my inferior Nature. Distinct from it, you should understand, is my other Nature in the form of life consciousness which sustains this world. ( BG -5/VII)

2. “ But what do you stand to gain, O Arjuna, by knowing all this in detail ? I remain sustaining this entire universe by only a portion of Myself” ( BG-42/X)

3. “ A portion of Myself becomes an eternal soul in the world of life and draws to itself the senses of which the mind is the sixth, all abiding in prakriti” ( BG-7/XV)

therefore you are not god or brahman or sri krishna , you are just simple jiva
read bhagavatam ( 10/87/30, 11/16/11) to know who you are

[hinduism♥krishna]

One way or another, the reality is Brahman. What creates a feeling of seperation is a brain(which in turn produces an ego)
To be liberated we have to subdue the ego so we do not feel such seperation.

How are we supposed to subdue the ego (that causes the imagination of a jiva) if we go around saying "I'm God", it sounds arrogant no matter how much reason and logic people put behind it.
and there will always be a never ending stream of people ready to challange such a grandiose claim.

In the end everything will still be Brahman, but "me" and Brahman is still two.
when Brahman is known there is no more me or anything else, it is often described as formless or non-dual
Ramana maharshi once said
"There is no jnani(knower) only jnana(knowledge)"

Namaste unfortunatelly you didn't understand " bramhavidya / advaita ".

Where are the two things ? Your post gets contradicted when scriptures say jiva's attributes, bondage and liberation, are not real.

For more info ,read bhagavat purana -11th canto-uddhava gita, where krishna beautifully explains how jiva has no any bondage or liberation.

You didn't read my op where shukadeva says "it is like jiva has become bramhan . But in really he was bramhan already. " This is the supreme knowledge .

Instead thinking too laterally ,just read bhagavata purana, where you can find topmost knowledge of advaita, specially in 11th and 12th skanda.

[the sadhu]

namaste
the two-ness or duality exist within the imagination generated by the limited quality of Braman called a brain. It is a upadhi, a limited quality, to associate the self with any limited quality is to limit a limitless self, of course this seems paradoxical that something unlimited(Brahman/Nature-Conciousness) can appear limited, but this only due to the ignorant perceptions of jiva.
The self is omnipresent consciousness, and it is indeed Brahman. But the "me" is nothing but a collection of objects(like eyes,a brain, or a nervous system) that the mind associates with. This "Me" is often called the ego. This is the self that appears to do things, while the Atman appears to do nothing but witness.

The perception of a "me", the images of your body,possessions, and other objects one falsely associates with I. Creates a mental divide in an indivisible reality, there is infinity(Brahman) and the portion of Brahman called "me".
Since it is this little me, that has the attribes needed to say "I am God".... as consciousness is without attributes. And lacks the capacity to speak.
So the person who says "I am God(the totality)" obviously is confusing the Ego with the Atman.

[sanathan]

Where are the two things ? Your post gets contradicted when scriptures say jiva's attributes, bondage and liberation, are not real.



Please produce the scriptural texts to support above lines.

If bondage and liberation are not real, what are you trying to preach here and to whom you are preaching your theory?

Be happy with what 'is' .

[ShivaFan]

Namaste h(luv)k, thank you.

If we are Brahman (viz God) then why are some people so full of mean character, and want to hurt devotees? I understand that yes, one can be in illusion or maya, but even maya cannot explain this to me.
If you truly know the Brahman, please explain this. The astika school says the Vedas are the final authority, but what are even the Vedas if Brahman is a mirror, and all things we see including ourself are reflections only? Are the Vedas created by Brahma, or by Brahman? If Brahma is only speaking the Vedas but not creating them, who is then listening? And more importantly, if Brahma was speaking the Vedas (as in past tense) then do the Vedas have a beginning and an end? If so, then when did Brahma STOP speaking the Vedas if they have an end? If they have no end, then Brahma would STILL be speaking the Vedas, and is this speaking simply repeating the same set of verses over and over again in circular motion, or is each verse afresh and new and not yet heard or it may be known but said in a new way with every passing moment? If it was to be with a beginning and then an end, how long did it take Brahma to speak the Vedas? One day of Brahma?

This is all relevant to me, because it brings to me the question of the Brahman (verse dwaita) to the forefront. Why do I say so?

Becaise if someone has not had Direct vision of Brahma creating the Vedas today, then the Vedas must have been spoken to the end. Does one then need to repeat it to the next? And why so? If we are Brahman? Why would that moment of Brahma be fixed in time, and not always also be there as a reflection in the mirror? Are the Vedas dependant on origination? If not, then Vedas would not be words or heard, they would be continous, a state, immediate, and not created at all. A word has a starting point, a middle, and an end. Does truth also?

Directly to the point, how many words are in the vocabulary of the Brahman? If there are a fixed number of words, then the Vedas have a beginning, middle and end no matter how many combinations you make with those words, there are only so many combinations even if the total is a very large number. If there are not a fixed number of words, then the Vedas have no language, there are ever new words afresh, unlike the previous. But then that means what is heard is constantly changing, then it is of no beginning but only becoming. If Brahman is of that nature, then Brahman is a Buddhist.

Am I becoming? If I am, that what I am is changing. So if I am Brahman, then Brahman is also changing. Yes? Help me understand.

Your ever well wisher.

Jai Hanuman.

Om Namah Sivaya

[smaranam]

praNAm ShivaFan


If we are Brahman (viz God) then why are some people so full of mean character, and want to hurt devotees?

According to Kevala Advaita, both mean people and nice surrendered devotees are ROBOTS OF BRAHMAN. :)

The CHOICES are:
1. Reprogram the Robot to be a pure devotee
2.
a) Teach/program the Robot to step aside so that Brahman can shine through it, speak, act, walk through it.

b) Ignore the Robot


A while ago I wrote in "God in Hindu Dharma" that if the anya deva-devatA are Self-Realized, then they can step aside so that Brahman alone can shine through if that's what the devotee wants. Brahman is the antaryAmi of both.

Otherwise, the devatA's costume is kept active. Guess who is wearing the devatA costume in that case? Brahman.

Similarly, those robots on this path can just step aside so as to not come in the way, and let Brahman shine thru'

This is explained by the masters as "salt doll dissolves into ocean"
or unknowingly expressed by people as
"Parameshwar was acting through that person"
"

[hinduism♥krishna]

namaste

1. just like one wave of sea can not become a whole sea

2. just like a ray of sun can not become the sun

3. just like a single spark can not become the ball of fire

4. just like dahi can not become milk

Namaste , you have not understood even the basic concepts of dharma .Jiva is the self considered with mind , intellect and pranas . While atama /bramhan is often considered in its pure form.

If the existence of single wave is an illusion , if existence of single ray is an illusion , then how you can consider wave is different from sea ? Scriptures consider individuality ,difference and form as the products of maya. There is a wave , is the false appearance .In fact there is bramhan only .

Bramhan is undividable ,without a second , then how can you take the ray out of sun ? Upanishadas say "who considers any diversity in bramhan ,goes from the cycles of birth and death " . " the one who considers himself distinct from bramhan doesn't know."

According to your imagination ,if we take jiva as real thing ,then "neti neti " logic would be a joke.;) That logic has negated all the mind's thoughts about soul. It has negated the mind ,intellect and prana [constituting jiva which causes individuality] which are attributed on atma/bramhan by ignorant persons.

[hinduism♥krishna]

Please produce the scriptural texts to support above lines.

If bondage and liberation are not real, what are you trying to preach here and to whom you are preaching your theory?

Be happy with what 'is' .

There are many scriptural supports .Ok , I tell you the conversation between shri krishna and uddhava .Let's see what shri krishna wants to say on this topic ;)

etadachyuta me bruhi.......ek aevati me brhamaha ( bhagavat puran 11.10.37)
Meaning:
O Achyuta, please tell me the answer to my question. You are the greatest in capacity to know the nature of questions. I am confused, whether Atman is always free or always in bondage?

( before that uddhava understood that krishna is atman of all.Then another question arises in mind of uddhava He thought in mind like this – “If you, the Lord Shri Krishna, become Jeeva but it is only you, then we have to believe that all the bondage of worldly life is applicable to krishna only”. )

Then lord replied :
"buddho mukto eti vyakhya gunato me vastutah
gunasya.......maya bandhanam (BG 11.11.1)

Meaning:“The bondage or the freedom is not actual for me, but it is according to the Gunas,and as Gunas belong to Maya, there is neither liberation nor bondage for me.

Explaination :Actually, in atma there are no such states as bondage or freedom, It is all the effect of the action of Gunas, and they are not related to soul.
In Atmic Nature, there is no bondage and no freedom. By the action of Gunas, the Gunas seem to be bound or to be free.
Gunas are within Maya and atma is totally distinct from Maya. If at all unreal can nullify the Real, then we can say that people get drowned in the illusive waters of mirage!
If by the fire painted in a picture, towns will be burnt, or people will have monetary transaction exchanging the heap of money seen in a dream. Or if the reflection of the Sun would swallow the Sun, or if shadow would tie a man, or the sea will be sunk in the mirage – then only, by the three Gunas soul could be bound. If the tongue would have hair, if trees will grow on the palm, if a mountain would go into an eye, only then atma would be bound by the Gunas.
If a man starts acting according to the provocations of Gunas he becomes identified with the activities of those Gunas and that person experiences the delusion that he is either bound or he
is free, which is not real.

Now you will say that though we accept that Atman is different from the Gunas it is natural that if Atman is functioning within the Gunas he will be suffering from their modifications and
Vikaras.

But my dear, consider one example. By contact with fire a pot becomes hot, water boils by contact with the hot pot and in the hot water rice is boiled. Similarly Atman does not get any modifications by Gunas, just as the fire which is the root cause is distinct and unaffected.
An actor acts out the role of a blind man but, he is personally not blind. Similarly though Atman is seen to be functioning with the Gunas he is eternally beyond forms and qualities.
Gunas are the qualities of Maya while Atman is really pure. The
Gunas and the Atman have no relationship with each other.
Gunas are the qualities of Maya while Atman is really pure. The
Gunas and the Atman have no relationship with each other.
So it is absolutely impossible that Atman can become bound and when bondage disappears the sense of freedom also disappears. So krishna as Atman is really beyond the states of bondage or freedom.

For example in the face of man and in the reflection of that face in the mirror no dirt exists but the surface of the mirror has the dirt which creates an impression that the man's face and the reflection have that dirt.
If that dirt is to be removed it is the mirror which needs cleaning and you have not to rub the reflection on any grinding stone. It will be absurd.
Similarly there is no defect in the Jeeva or Shiva. The defect is in the mind and if that mind is purified then both the bondage and freedom are given a send off.
Similarly, all the defects which arise due to the activities of the Gunas are belonging to ingnorance, but foolish people using their crude intellect, think that these defects belong to the soul .

When the defects so far developed are withered away by the power of Sattwa, the defects caused by ignorance disappear, and ignorance itself becomes pure wisdom; and Jeeva does not remain Jeeva, but it becomes Shiva, the cosmic God.
When both the names, viz., Jeeva and Shiva become united in krishna, then nothing except himself alone exists in the universe either in the human kingdom or in the other Kingdoms. If krishna is looked at as Jeeva, then krishna is Jeeva; and if he is conceived as Shiva, then krishna is Shiva.Really, krishna is not one, and he is not many. There is no other to experience him. Krishna is his own experience as well as the experiencer. Here, you may raise a doubt that - "if you say that you are everything i.e. Jeeva and Shiva then why is it that only Shuka and Vamadeva are declared to be free? Why others are called jada (bound) Jeevas?"

there is no difference between any man in bondage or Wasishtha and Vamadeva etc who are supposed to be free.
From the point of view of persons who are free, the whole nature is free. They do not see any bondage anywhere. So, distinct mention of Shuka or Vamdeva has no place there.

"shokamoho sukham.......tu vastavi (BG 11.11.2)

Meaning: By the force of Maya there is sorrow, enticement, pleasure and pain and the birth of a man in his body. So sorrow, enticement, pleasure and pain etc are as unreal as our experience in the dream.

Explaination: Dream is of a short period but in that duration a man experiences that he has taken many births in many kingdoms of nature. As that is unreal so is the perception of this worldly existence unreal. This false appearance is dissolved immediately and in the body there is great havoc! When people say, "Gone! I am dead, No no etc that is the sorrow.There is a pot which is slightly having a hole. There is reflection of moon in it. A child thinks that it is a shining diamond and picks up the pot. What happens? Water in the pot oozes out with the reflection of the moon. The child begins to cry. That is sorrow.Or otherwise when the child tries to hold that reflection of the moon in his hand it is not possible. When the child begins to cry that is called sorrow. When a man begins to break the mirror in order to catch the reflection in his hand the mirror breaks and the man thinks that he is dead, that is sorrow.What is enticement? When there is pride and a sense of belonging about a thing, which is not really existing, it is called enticement. At that moment, the sense of ‘my’ arises.A foolish man sits guarding the waters of mirage with a hope that he will get a good production of bananas from that water.If anybody just saunters nearby he gets up to fight with that man and thus there is hallucination by which the man loses common sense.Similarly parents are hoping that they would enjoy some happiness when their son will be adult and earning, but that son simply deserts them! This is false hope and enticement. By seeing in the clouds a whole city appearing as an illusion a king may think about assembling a great army to conquer that city.Similarly the pride about our body is false and the attachment to the body is very difficult to get rid of . Somehow every animal is proud of its body. This is indicative of attachment.In short ‘I’ and ‘Mine’ are the parents of the enticement and by that attachment people are completely deceived and deluded.
A poison may taste sweet. Similarly people are attached to the objects which are very much liked by them and when those objects are continuously available for enjoyment it is called pleasure.The ecstasy which people feel in the contact with those objects is called pleasure and when those objects are not available it is called pain. That is the absence of pleasure.Sorrow, enticement, pain and pleasure are the causes for birth and formation of body for the Jeeva and because of the pride of that body the soul has to take many painful bodies.
The Jeeva is born by the force of his acute desire at the time of death. Either by his attraction or by his dislike or hatred the soul receives another birth with the same tendency.
The serpent and the mongoose maintain their hatred of each other even in death and are born as the very images of that hatred. So, the desire which is prevalent at the time of death decides the next birth.The Vedas and Puranas also declare this fact that a man gets his next birth according to his prominent attraction or repulsion at the time of his death.As regards Maya, please understand that just as the shadow of a man is dependent upon his figure but it is false, Maya is unreal though it appears on Brahman.Just as there is only one mind in the dream which adopts various forms, so the very different perceptions of one spirit, the manifest creation of animate and inanimate beings.In short, since the whole world has no real existance, where is happiness? And where is sorrow? You see, there is no shadow when there is no body!How can we tell whether it is black or fair which actually has not been born? Everything is like a dream. The world is not existing at all. In these two verses the Lord has counter-mined the argument about the separateness of various things. Now he is telling about the recognition which arises out of experience which is not detrimental to truth.For instance, when we press the eye by our finger we see two objects, two Moons; but there is only one Moon in the sky. Similarly there is false appearance of forms in the formless Reality.

"vidyavidye mama tanu......mayaya me vinirmite "

Meaning: O Uddhava! Know that the liberating knowledge and the ignorance are my two bodies or potencies, specially brought into being by my Maya and have existed without begining , have no real existence ; they appeared as the cause of the bondage or release of the Jeeva (bearing body).

Explaination: That is called liberating knowledge or Vidya which is experienced by self knowledge only and by which our mind is always in the state or in the sense – “I am Brahman”, and this knowledge dissipates ignorance. That state of mind is Avidya or ignorance where a man always feels that he is a sinner, he is damned and it always breeds doubts. One of the two puts the Jeeva in bondage and the other cuts the bondage. both these are krishna's own potencies which are eternal.
You may ask me - "krishna is the total spirit and thus there are no projections or attitudes in him. krishna eternally exist without any qualities or duties. So how can there be any powers or potencies as your attributes?
There is no need to raise such question because that Maya of hari which is beyond all Gods and Men gives birth to all these powers.
If we call it real it is destroyed in a moment and if we call it unreal it is actually felt and it is that Maya which has created the name and form with which all people get involved and play!
So we cannot call it real or unreal and therefore it is called indescribable. That means it cannot be told in words. It is taking all the care of the Vidya and Avidya as if they are chicks under her wings. Vidya and Avidya are not created today. They are beginingless and are the two facets of Maya which create the apparent bondage or freedom.
You will ask – Who is this Maya? Your imagination is Maya. In that imagination the ideas of bondage and freedom come into existence.
Now I shall tell you about the states of bondage and freedom. Avidya, the ignorance is in full power in the man who does not know what it means to worship krishna and also does not know what is his devotion. And he is the maternal home of the self-knowledge, who is merged all the twenty four hours in hari's worship and is very alert in the matter of devotion to hari. The self-knowledge is always increasing in his mind.
Ignorance leaves the place where there is great enthusiasm about devotion to hari. The devotees are confident that the knowledge of Brahman enters their life only. krishna has so far described, for establishing the faith and devotion what is the cause of bondage and what is the means to attain freedom. On this Uddhava said – If you say that the two powers of bondage and freedom belong to Maya, it follows that it is Maya who is the giver of freedom. But O Krishna! How is it possible? Because if liberation is bestowed by Maya, why should one do devotion to you? Why should one worship you? So, O Lord! What is the truth in this? Please tell me definitely.
Upon this, the Lord said to Uddhava, “Please see! Shadow has no separate existence of its own. Similarly, Maya has no existence of its own. So, how can it liberate anybody! The Lord Vishnu, who is the controller of Maya, is the only giver of the freedom. It is He who cuts the bondage of Jeeva, and bestows final freedom. (Sayujjyata)
You may argue – “All the Gurus definitely teach that due to ignorance and through the selfish actions, creating a heap of karma – there is bondage to the Jeeva, and that bondage is cut by self-knowledge and the state of actionlessness. This teaching is based on the Vedas. Is the Lord Vishnu a responsible doer? No. Then How can He be the giver of freedom! But Do not at all give place to such a doubt. Because it is the Lord Vishnu who is also the Guru and the meaning of Vedas is also Vishnu Himself. Not only this but Vishnu is also the penance, the maintenance of peace and control of senses etc.
Over and above this, please note that the knowledge which the disciple learns by his intellect is also another form of Lord Vishnu. Please remember this, then you will know that it is the Lord Vishnu who bestows liberation on the devotees. The Lord Vishnu is also the state of trance which is equal to and the result of liberation. It is
also Lord Vishnu who takes the form of the bliss and joy in the state of trance. Please also note that I am that Lord Vishnu who is the Eternal Brahman, the wholeness of Paramatman and krishna himself by kindness release his devotees from the net of worldly life.
Now the Lord is categorically denying the claim that, based on the term – who bears the body ‘शरीरणाम-it is implied that the Jeeva is bound as a normal fact. (The term occurs in the verse No.3 above)
He is specifically answering the question implied in the query of Uddhava, whether only one Jeeva is bound as well as free at one and the same time.

"ekasyaivva man anshasya...... cha tathetarah (11.11.4)

meaning: Though I am one, O highly intelligent one, it is in relation to the Jeeva alone, which is imagined as a part , which is my reflection that bondage existed from time immemorial through ignorance and it is in that context only that the other state of freedom is possible through the knowledge given by me.

explaination :
In the case of fire, it is sometimes very small and sometimes large according to the fuel which is a little or more and a tiny spark of it may go up in the sky which is a small part of fire, but in the case of Atman, there is no such thing as decrease or increase; so, how can we conceive any division or part of the Atman? Uddhava was endowed with that kind of intellect with which he was able to reach the knowledge of Brahman. That is why the Lord Shri Krishna called him “highly intelligent”.Calling him like this with love, the Lord said, “Listen, pay attention. The subject is deep. It must be properly grasped by you.Thus, the Lord Shri Krishna patted Uddhava on his back, and said – I have great love for you and therefore I am telling you this most secret thing.By patting the back of Uddhava He infused His own power in the mind and body of Uddhava, and thus He made him capable of grasping the knowledge of non-duality. He said – O Uddhava, though there are many lamps, the light is one and the same, similarly throughout all the three worlds, there is one soul or Jeeva.Two flames can become one by fusion, but two lamps cannot be united into one, because separateness is only possible with inanimate physical things, while there is oneness, there is unity in the case of spirit.There may be many pieces of sandalwood but the fragrance is the same, similarly I, the Paramatman, the Universal spirit, become Jeeva everywhere.

Here you might say – “If you, the Lord Shri Krishna, become Jeeva but it is only you, then we have to believe that all the bondage of worldly life is applicable to you only”. If you believe like this, please know that, it will never happen! It is like the vital breath which makes the physical body function but is not affected by any changes in the body, but remains aloof and independent.
It is by my reflection that Jeeva is apparently living in the subtle body, though it is independent, and to say that it is bound is a distortion of a false nature, imposed upon Jeeva by your ignorance.
There is partly enclosed space in a pot which is called “Ghatakash”, but the space is not destroyed even if the pot is broken into pieces. Similarly as Jeeva, I am non-destructible.Though there is a reflection of the Sun in a little pool of water, the Sun Himself does not come down and fall in that pool. Similarly I am unpolluted though I appear as Jeeva. As the Sun is aloof though His reflection falls in the water in the pool, so also, I am only apparent in the subtle body, but I have no bondage of the false experiences which seem to be taking place there. Now, no further explanations are necessary. I am Shiva, the principal and the reflection is Jeeva, the apparent secondary thing. This is the fact about the Jeeva and Shiva. There are many reflections of the Sun in the various collections of water, such as a lake, a well or pools; but in the sky if we try to see various Suns, we can only find one Sun. Similarly, the state of Jeeva which creates a sense of various articles, on the matrix of one single object of Shiva, is an unreal appearance. Now please know pure essence of the philosophy of this path of Bhagawata!
When there is reflection of the Sun in the water in the pool, various qualities like still, change, clear, unclear etc which belong to the water, are imposed upon the reflection. Actually Shiva has no bondage at any time. That is the work of ignorance and it is imposed upon the Jeeva. So, the division as Jeeva is actually false. Ignorance and knowledge show the bondage or freedom by their karma and Gunas.The ignorance and knowledge show the state of bondage and freedom of eternal nature with regard to the Jeeva only.
When a reflection of the Sun falls in the water, it is only the reflection that is affected according to the movement or stillness of water. The Sun has absolutely no relation with these changes.
A fire-fly in the darkness can never see the Sun. Similarly the bondage or freedom of the Jeeva has nothing to do with Atman.The sky seems to be drowned in the water but it is not wet. Similarly, Atman is aloof from ignorance and it is always free. Only in the soul there is illusion that one is bound and the other is free. I shall prove this also. Please listen. If one thousand pots are filled with water, so many reflections of the Sun are seen in all those pots, but the condition of water is not the same in all the pots. It differs from pot to pot. The reflection of the Sun appears to be flickering in the pot where water is having some movement and the surface is not still, but the reflection in another pot, in the still water, is not affected by the water in the first pot. That is still only. If by bad luck, one of the pots is having a small hole in it, the whole water in that pot oozes out and the reflection also disappears, while all other reflections are not affected.Similarly one, whose subtle body is dissolved by the grace of the Guru, becomes one with the Paramatman, while others remain caught in the prison of their body.

[jopmala]

Namaste , you have not understood even the basic concepts of dharma .Jiva is the self considered with mind , intellect and pranas . While atama /bramhan is often considered in its pure form.

If the existence of single wave is an illusion , if existence of single ray is an illusion , then how you can consider wave is different from sea ? Scriptures consider individuality ,difference and form as the products of maya. There is a wave , is the false appearance .In fact there is bramhan only .

Bramhan is undividable ,without a second , then how can you take the ray out of sun ? Upanishadas say "who considers any diversity in bramhan ,goes from the cycles of birth and death " . " the one who considers himself distinct from bramhan doesn't know."

According to your imagination ,if we take jiva as real thing ,then "neti neti " logic would be a joke.;) That logic has negated all the mind's thoughts about soul. It has negated the mind ,intellect and prana [constituting jiva which causes individuality] which are attributed on atma/bramhan by ignorant persons.

namaste

As you know I do not understand basic concepts of dharma I therefore request you to be kind enough to teach me some lessons on dharma . just tell me while everything is illusion and there is brahman only , whom you address by 'you' in your caption " you are GOD"
2. I expect your views on the verses I quoted from Bhagavat Gita.

3. what is the source of power of maya that can have products of its own

4. while there is only brahman who is said to be nirvikara nirvishes etc, who is maya then

5. verse 8/XV of BG says " when the lord of the body discards the body and enters into a different body, He takes these ( five senses and mind) and goes very much as wind which carrries off the particles of scents from their sources" - please tell me who is the lord of the body here. since according to you jiva constititues mind intellect and pranas then what is the body refereed to in this verse

6 you say existence of single ray is illusion. Please go to the verse 12/XV of BG which says " The radiance of the sun that lights up the whole world that which is found in the moon and in fire- that radiance, know this belongs to Me"- what is the meaning of this verse

7 verse 13/XV of BG says " Entering the earth, I sustain all beings with my vital energy and nourish all plants and tress, becoming the moon which is the giver of water and sap"- Are these all illusion ?

[rama_t]

Namasthe

Our Institute created Game of Life chart to indicate various levels of life which can finally merge with the Ultimate. As per scriptures Markandeya is the one who achieved this highest state.

http://www.imperience.org/Research/ResearchGameoflife.htm#
This is created for sadhakas to evaluate where one is where to reach finally.

With Regards
Rama

[ShivaFan]

Thank you!

praNAm ShivaFan



According to Kevala Advaita, both mean people and nice surrendered devotees are ROBOTS OF BRAHMAN. :)

The CHOICES are:
1. Reprogram the Robot to be a pure devotee
2.
a) Teach/program the Robot to step aside so that Brahman can shine through it, speak, act, walk through it.

b) Ignore the Robot


A while ago I wrote in "God in Hindu Dharma" that if the anya deva-devatA are Self-Realized, then they can step aside so that Brahman alone can shine through if that's what the devotee wants. Brahman is the antaryAmi of both.

Otherwise, the devatA's costume is kept active. Guess who is wearing the devatA costume in that case? Brahman.

Similarly, those robots on this path can just step aside so as to not come in the way, and let Brahman shine thru'

This is explained by the masters as "salt doll dissolves into ocean"
or unknowingly expressed by people as
"Parameshwar was acting through that person"
"

[sanathan]

Dear,

I simply asked you the question to show scriptural evidences to support your below statement :

"scriptures say jiva's attributes, bondage and liberation, are not real."

Then you went ahead to iterate Krishna's words about his nature , but not about Jeeva's nature and given your own interpretations, I don't care them.

I just want the scriptural statements (note: Shruthi is first hand pramana, you can use prasthana thrayi).

I hope you know the meaning of JEEVA.

Common sense is enough to know whether jeevas have bondage or not, if they are not bound to karma, then whole sasthras are useless.

If bondage is not real , then what are you trying to do with sasthras? just throw them out .. and be happy. you got my point?

[hinduism♥krishna]

Dear,

I simply asked you the question to show scriptural evidences to support your below statement :

"scriptures say jiva's attributes, bondage and liberation, are not real."

Then you went ahead to iterate Krishna's words about his nature , but not about Jeeva's nature and given your own interpretations, I don't care them.

I just want the scriptural statements (note: Shruthi is first hand pramana, you can use prasthana thrayi).

I hope you know the meaning of JEEVA.

Common sense is enough to know whether jeevas have bondage or not, if they are not bound to karma, then whole sasthras are useless.

If bondage is not real , then what are you trying to do with sasthras? just throw them out .. and be happy. you got my point?




namaste ,

know that krishna had already indentified himself with atma.So whatever you say atma,bramhan,paramatma ,it is the same thing.Then uddhava asked the question whether atma is always free or always in bondage ?

Then krishna replied : “The bondage or the freedom is not actual for me, but it is according to the Gunas,and as Gunas belong to Maya, there is neither liberation nor bondage for me. "

[ here lord krishna is not considering atma is different from me. Just use your common sense if you have.
1) if uddhava is asking the question about atma ,why krishna replied with 'me' ? It only proves krishna is atma only.The real nature of krishna is atmic nature.It is stated thousand times in bhagavat purana.

2)If we think according to your point ,then why krishna said " I have [appearant] bondage according to gunas which belongs to maya "


Furthe he says:
"shokamoho sukham.......tu vastavi (BG 11.11.2)

Meaning: By the force of Maya there is sorrow, enticement, pleasure and pain and the birth of a man in his body. So sorrow, enticement, pleasure and pain etc are as unreal as our experience in the dream.

( Don't you know it is referred to atma ? krishna said that pain ,sorrow etc are unreal as our experience in the dream . By considering this example ,he wants to say that as bondage in the form of pain ,sorrow are within the field of maya ,it is unreal as a dream.It has no absolute existence.So considering me who is atma ,have bondage would be a foolish thing. )


"vidyavidye mama tanu......mayaya me vinirmite "

Meaning: O Uddhava! Know that the liberating knowledge and the ignorance are my two bodies or potencies, specially brought into being by my Maya and have existed without begining , have no real existence ; they appeared as the cause of the bondage or release of the Jeeva .

( Did you read this ? " they appeared as the cause of the bondage or release of the Jeeva .
Liberating knowledge and ignorance are maya which have no real existence . In this way krishna says " bondage and liberation are not real things .They just appeared due to maya.


further he says :
Though I am one, O highly intelligent one, it is in relation to the Jeeva alone, which is imagined as a part , which is my reflection that bondage existed from time immemorial through ignorance and it is in that context only that the other state of freedom is possible through the knowledge given by me.

(Krishna says " though I am one , I am imagined in part as a jiva . . krishna says that this bondage and liberation are just the reflections of him [ ie they are superimposed on krishna/atma/bramhan] . )


Of course ,to understand this one should have a sharp intellect . This is part of bramhavidya.This in not easy to understand . I don't think any dwaitian would understand what krishna have said in these 4 verses .

hare ram .

[sanathan]

�The bondage or the freedom is not actual for me, but it is according to the Gunas,and as Gunas belong to Maya, there is neither liberation nor bondage for me. "


I don't want to go into your useless interpretations anyway, but giving you reply to show your illogical thinking:

Yes I agree that the bondage is according to maya..but on whom that bondage is? you are skipping that point and isolating Atma and bondage.
bondage is according to gunas, which belong to maya..everything is perfect..so why are you and me worrying and talking about those now here? if "you" or "me" is not impacted with those..we don't need to discuss all these right? are you getting my point dear?

Now you have to tell me what is the link between that bondage and atma or you. if there is no relation..then go to sleep, if there is relation then it shatters your theory.

Think some time and give me some logical reply.

Finally leave Krishna alone aside, he is never touched by Maya or bondage like you and me. So please don't relegate him to your stature.

Thanks

[hinduism♥krishna]

I don't want to go into your useless interpretations anyway, but giving you reply to show your illogical thinking:

Yes I agree that the bondage is according to maya..but on whom that bondage is? you are skipping that point and isolating Atma and bondage.
bondage is according to gunas, which belong to maya..everything is perfect..so why are you and me worrying and talking about those now here? if "you" or "me" is not impacted with those..we don't need to discuss all these right? are you getting my point dear?

Now you have to tell me what is the link between that bondage and atma or you. if there is no relation..then go to sleep, if there is relation then it shatters your theory.

Think some time and give me some logical reply.

Finally leave Krishna alone aside, he is never touched by Maya or bondage like you and me. So please don't relegate him to your stature.

Thanks


[/size][/font][/font][/color]

All things are cleared in that 4 verses . Yet you didn't bother to read it and to understand it properly .What I have highlighted ,read it .
YOU ASKED "but on whom that bondage is ? - Is this a valid question when I have already said that bondage is seen due to maya which is unreal ? Only mind is responsible for appearant bondage . It is well known fact that Atma is not the experiencer . Atma is beyond " jagruta ,swapna and sushupti " states . Atma is only the witnesser. For your simplicity , just consider mind is running by mind .;)

Maya and bramhan are undescribable .It is impossible to explain maya .No any scripture describes vishnu's maya in details .It is described in indirect way. In what ways ,there is maya ,we can describe this .But what is actually maya ,we can't describe this ever .

You didn't even know that the maya is unreal .Bondage and liberation are just reflections which are superimposed on atma or bramhan due to maya . The thing which is within maya ,can not be a real . So bondage is also unreal as our experience in dream . If you don't understand this , better you leave this topic .

For you , this simple logic would be understandable ;) - Krishna is atma of all living beings .So AS there is no possibillity of bondage or liberation for krishna , atma can not have liberation or bondage in real sense .\

HARE KRISHNA HARE RAM

[hinduism♥krishna]

If we are Brahman (viz God) then why are some people so full of mean character, and want to hurt devotees?

Namaste ,shivafan.

You asked me this question ,so just read my #25 post to know the answer .

Dhanyavad.;)

[sanathan]

Is this a valid question when I have already said that bondage is seen due to maya which is unreal ? Only mind is responsible for appearant bondage . It is well known fact that Atma is not the experiencer . Atma is beyond " jagruta ,swapna and sushupti " states . Atma is only the witnesser. For your simplicity , just consider mind is running by mind .;)


I can fully understand what you are saying , in fact those are the common words of typical Advaitin.

Now let me explain you ..but you need to understand what I am saying/asking.

"Bondage is seen due to maya" is your answer, but I was asking about the very seer , who sees the bondage? is it mind?, then what is mind, it is an isolated entity from Atma, and can mind experience effects of bondage?
And if mind is the one effected, why are you worrying about all these, and what are you doing with sastras..in fact you are Atma right ?


Oh yes, as per you all that is being experienced is by mind only..please care to explain what mind is sir, and why are 'you' bothering about all that is not real?

Let us stop thinking about the concept of Atma, start from the current state of experience..

When I ask some question, you read it, understand it, and reply to it..so who is that doing all these activities and feeling various experiences, I am asking about that person, because he is bound to karma, and needs liberation..if you don't agree this point, then we don't need to discuss any further.

But your thoughts are funny, you say that you are pure Atma, but you will respond to my comments, if I scold with harsh words, and you are trying hard to prove your understanding as superior to my inferior understanding, how funny is your anxiety..don't you feel you are not obeying your own words of "you are pure Atma".

So your theory says one thing, but practically you are doing something else. have a self-check

I told you first day that, if you really know that you are Atma without any bondage and liberation, then what are you trying preach here and to whom?

So you want to use your illusory mind still and want to preach all illusory people..and want to prove your words as TRUE which in fact are illusory as per your own theory.

Funny guy.

Think something practical and logical, don't imagine some non-existing concepts as REAL and try to prove those with your illusory thoughts, mind, words, brain.

[sanathan]

It is well known fact that Atma is not the experiencer . Atma is beyond " jagruta ,swapna and sushupti " states . Atma is only the witnesser


Why are you bothering about Atma if that is not experiencer, we are discussing here on bondage and liberation, so the persons discussing this topic are experiencers of those, otherwise they wouldn't have known those.

Simple points:

1. You are reading sastras and understanding them, who is that person ? is that Atma or mind?

2. you say statements like "there is neither liberation nor bondage for me" , so who is this "me" ? is it the same person as mentioned in point 1? or different?

3. If the person reading sastras and want to know his real self ..then why he is saying "he is not in bondage"?

4. If the person who wants to know his real self is mind..then mind is not real self and it itself is mithya as per the same person, so he is lost.

5. So now you have 2 concepts one is Atma which is not bound, another is mind(or current experiencer who is reading this post right now), please answer me who are you i.e answering my questions .
6. What is the relation between untouched Atma and mind? and why the suffering mind wants to know about Atma or true self?

[hinduism♥krishna]

Namaste ,sanathan .

You should think like this and arrive at the conclusion about the nature of the self that the three states of mind (jagrita ,swapna,sushupti) born out of three Gunas are falsely superimposed on Me as the Jeeva, by my delusive Power (Maya) and should cut at the root of egoism, the basis of all doubts, with the
sword of Wisdom fortified by reasoning, the precepts of saints and the texts of Shruti(Upanishads), and join in the Unity with Me seated in your heart. ( BG 11.13.33 )


The Gunas are the cause of bondage of the worldly life and the mind is filled with more or less of each Guna. The root Maya which covers krishna/atma, hides atma from the vision of the ignorant, is the main cause of illusion.
Just as water creates a sheet in front of the pupil of the eye, which water is from the eye only, Maya which is strengthened by atma's own power, has covered the real appearance from the sight of ignorant men.
Or at full moon night, there is shadow of earth on the moon which creates a black surface on the moon by illusion.

When we consider the great distance between the earth and the moon, we know that the black spot or area of the moon is not real but people, out of ignorance take it to be real.

Similar is the function of Maya in atma, It has not even touched atma, but people are deceived by its false appearance.
They, therefore, take up the responsibility of actions upon themselves, which are actually happening due to Gunas. This increases the passions for enjoying the objects of pleasure.

In short, the bondage of both the physical body and the subtle body is actually false. Therefore, the seeker should employ the means as told by krishna, in order to destroy the false bondage.

All this that appears right from the body at the physical level to the Ego, Or Aham at the highest spiritual level is nothing but the play of the mind and all this is illusion. In the dream, mind looks at everything within itself. Similarly ignorance creates this very lengthy dream of this life.

What is false appearance? When a man sees apparently something else super-imposed upon any object, that is called false or illusory appearance. For example silver appears on the surface of shell. A serpent appears on the rope.

Or where there are only sunrays, people see some water as mirage. Similarly when there is only one pure Brahman everywhere, people call it the world.

"I" is the cause of that super-imposition. When a torch is revolved speedily we see a circle of fire which is the illusion created by our limited power of perception. In that circle of fire the fire in the torch is the fact and the appearance of the circle is the illusion. Taking this as comparison, the world is false and Brahman is the fact.

In this world the physical and the environmental or divine disturbances are as illusory as the circle of fire and are the results of the Maya with its three Gunas.

When the torch is revolved there is appearance of a point of fire very briefly throughout the orbit of the fire but it is very temporary. Similarly the world appears but all forms and shapes are temporary.
The circle of fire appears so long as we revolve the torch speedily but when we stop the movement, the circle also disappears. Similarly so long as there is delusion, the world appears to be real but when the delusion disappears, the world also disappears from our vision.

[sanathan]

In short, the bondage of both the physical body and the subtle body is actually false. Therefore, the seeker should employ the means as told by krishna, in order to destroy the false bondage.


Without answering basic questions, no use of iterating all the same again and again.

Why the seeker needs to employ the means to destroy false? if the bondage itself is false, why to worry about false things? and who is the seeker anyway? is he also false appearance or not?

:D

[smaranam]

Why the seeker needs to employ the means to destroy false? if the bondage itself is false, why to worry about false things? and who is the seeker anyway? is he also false appearance or not?

Seeker is mind
Mind is 'mithya' AS IN "not the original stuff", but it being a sentient commodity, it thinks itself to be real, feels emotions and it suffers (feels feelings of suffering due to wrong thinking, wrong intellect).

Goal is to make the mind-robot peaceful.
Why should AtmA-Brahman care about a mithya-mind? Out of compassion for the suffering mind, AtmA intervenes.
Put it to rest.

~ ~

[sanathan]

Seeker is mind
Mind is 'mithya' AS IN "not the original stuff", but it being a sentient commodity, it thinks itself to be real, feels emotions and it suffers (feels feelings of suffering due to wrong thinking, wrong intellect).

Goal is to make the mind-robot peaceful.
Why should AtmA-Brahman care about a mithya-mind? Out of compassion for the suffering mind, AtmA intervenes.
Put it to rest.

~ ~

Seems like a satire on Advaitin :)

How does Atma 'know' about mind and where from compassion come into it?

compassion is again a term related to mind..

you can not get out of the loop unless you accept the experiencing nature of Atma itself. period.

BS declares the nature of self "Jnota eva" . Let the scriptures be aside.

Logical thinking is enough to know this, not sure why Advaitins struggle to understand some simple facts.

[hinduism♥krishna]

Thread owner note :

Sanathan , I request you not to ruin my thread . I have already described all things with the verses of bhagavat purana .But you didn't understand .Afterall it is a matter of sharp intellect .

The topic of the thread is " atma is bramhan . Now it is enough on the topic of " liberation and bondage.

hare krishna

[Amrut]

Seems like a satire on Advaitin :)

How does Atma 'know' about mind and where from compassion come into it?

compassion is again a term related to mind..

you can not get out of the loop unless you accept the experiencing nature of Atma itself. period.

BS declares the nature of self "Jnota eva" . Let the scriptures be aside.

Logical thinking is enough to know this, not sure why Advaitins struggle to understand some simple facts.

Namaste,

While I do not want to get engaged into discussion, I would like to share my views.

If you take 'Brahma satya Jagat Mithya' from day one and keep it as a gauge to check each and every verse, then Adi Shankara would not have been able to write Gita commentary.

If we take mithyA as illusion from day one and if Adi Shankara has thought of same, then why would he write commentary on BG 18.41-46, BG 18.66 and otehr verses.

Please find shankara bhashya in brief of selected verses.

BG: 3.35: Doing svadharma, though done defectively is superior (sreyas) than performing another's (another varNa's) in a better way. Even death is better while engaged in sva-dharma, as compared to remaining alive while engaging in another (varNa's) duty.

BG 4.13 & 18.41: (Essence): varNa is by guNa, but guNa is inherited by birth.

BG 18.42-45 talk about duties of 4 varNa-s

BG18.46: A human being achieves success, merely in the form of the ability for steadfastness in Knowledge; by adoring, worshipping svakarmana, with his own duties stated above, as allotted to each caste

BG 18.48: O son of Kunti one should not give up the karma, duty to which one is born, which devolves from the very birth even though it be faulty, ...

18.66 Sarva-dharman, all forms of rites and duties: Here the word dharma (righteousness) includes adharma (unrighteousness) as well; for, what is intended is total renunciation of all actions, as is enjoined in Vedic and Smrti texts like, 'One who has not desisted from bad actions' (Ka. 1.2.24), 'Give up religions and irreligion' (Mbh. Sa. 329.40), etc.

In Taittiriya Bhasya, our acharya explains the importance of duties in Taittiriya Upanishad 1/11.

Sloka begins with - ‘वेदमनूत्व्याचार्योऽन्तेवासिनमनुश� ��स्ति’ – ‘Vedamanoochyãchãryo’ntevãsinamanushãsti’ – ‘The teacher instructs the students who have completed their study of the Vedas’ (Taittireeya Upanishad: 1/11). He instructs them, ‘सत्यं वद। घर्मं चर। स्वाध्यायान्* मा प्रमदः।’ ‘Satyam vada; dharmam chara; ...

the question is why doe Adi shankara explain everything about dharma, if everythign is mithyA.

We can come at two conclusions

1. Either Adi Shankara has failed in his own philosophy OR
2. We have failed to understand him.

What is your personal opinion?

Non-dual state is ultimate truth according to advaita. As a seeker who is deluded under mAyA, this world is not unreal (false).

MithyA is that which is neither real nor unreal.

Real (truth, satya) is that which exists in all states - waking, dream, deep sleep and turiya
Unreal (false/ Asatya) is that which is not present at any state
mithyA has more than one definition

1. That which is not eternal
2. That which is not what it appears to be

mAyA and this world is not real (w.r.t above definition of real), as this waking world is not experienced in dream state and other 2 states. Dream world is not experienced in other 3 states. In deep sleep, both waking and dream world are not experienced.

Hence, they are not real. mAyA or ignorance (avidya) ends in Jnana. Again, when in non-dual turiya state, world, body, jivahood, etc are not experienced at all, nor are the traces of them found. e.g. cloth burned into ash has it's traces i.e. ash. As remains even after cloth is destroyed. As per this logic, in Jnana, one shouold see traces of mind, jiva, world, etc. This is not what is experienced.

Please refer to my posts on this (http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=12251&page=2)thread (start from post #16)

Are ou getting the point.

Advaita, do not reject dvaita. There is no issue. those statements are our desitnation and bhakti is done with abheda bhAva.

To an advaitin, mother remains mother, guru remains guru. But when he reaches maturity, he sees Atman and only atman. when he comes down from nirvikalp samadhi, he sees Atman in all.

To repeat, it is all Ishvara, it is his grace tha tone attains non-dual state. Neither grace, nor ishvara nor Guru is illusion. They are negated in a sense that Ishvara is present in it's pure form as pure consciousness in turiya state. Suru is also present as pure consciousness.

Simply put, advaita Vedantin does not rest or discontinue his spiritual journey till he experiences non-dual state.

Pure advaita statements talk about final destination.

btw, if you have noticed in BG 18.66 Shankara bhasya, Acharya says leave dharma and adharma too. He does not ask us to go insane and do evil.

Besides thinking this world as mithya (illusion) helps one to withdraw from it immediately.

I hope this clears out advaita concept.

Please do not stick to Brahma satya jagat mithya and keep gauging each and every argument with this verse. In Bg 9.25, acharya has used the word vaishnava. He freely uses Vishnu, Vasudev in his Gita commentary.

Jai Shri Krishna.

[Amrut]

I would once again repeat that those philosophical truths are only and only for those who regularly experience non-dual state but cannot constantly abide in it. Only he can put mAyA as illusion under practice. Obviously he remains isolated and finishes his spiritual journey, as he find nothing in this world. He does karma what is compulsory like eating for sustaining food. A very advanced sadhaka does not even go for begging alms. God makes arrangement. Again this sounds dual, but it leads to non-dual state. It's difficult ot explain. Only experience can clear doubts :)

Aum

[Amrut]

Namaste,

i would further like to add that such a soul is very rare. I think probability of such a high soul is only one in lakh. Out of lakh only few, may be 1 or 2, actually realize their true Self. Advaita is difficult to practice in it's pure form (neti-neti), to negate false superimposition on Self.

Aum

[sanathan]

Thread owner note :

Sanathan , I request you not to ruin my thread . I have already described all things with the verses of bhagavat purana .But you didn't understand .Afterall it is a matter of sharp intellect .

The topic of the thread is " atma is bramhan . Now it is enough on the topic of " liberation and bondage.

hare krishna

Don't ruin this Vaishnava sub forum with your senseless topics unrelated to forum.

yes Atman is BRahman because both are the terms given by you to an imaginary concept which can not be experienced by your mind.

[sanathan]

mAyA and this world is not real (w.r.t above definition of real), as this waking world is not experienced in dream state and other 2 states. Dream world is not experienced in other 3 states. In deep sleep, both waking and dream world are not experienced.

It will lead to again useless debate, because we are not on same plane of thinking.

I know what advaita teaches, but they can not show any proper pramana for any of their claims, and they never try coordinate the whole sastra(they take some portions as higher authority others are lesser for which we don't have any proof).

World is not real because the waking world is not experienced in dream state ? how funny.. then Turiya is also not real because it is not experienced in waking state.

All these definitions are your own, you can not show any valid pramana.

So I don't really care what your theory preaches, I care about your practical way .

And as I said in my other posts, your practical approach is completely different from your theory. you can do self-check on it.

All advaitins have already realized only Atman is TRUE..but they still want to engage in mithya world, for what? what is holding them in this mithya after they know the fact that it is mithya?

So their realization of world is mithya can not help them to get out of it..then what is the use of that realization? they will contemplate on it until they leave the body..after that , nobody knows..

So..it is just a tool for them to be happy or control their wavering mind during this life..its truth value is not certain to anybody.

[sanathan]

But you didn't understand .Afterall it is a matter of sharp intellect .

Yes, you have sharp intellect which is mithya and I have less intellect which is again mithya , so both intellects are mithya anyway. Even your understanding is mithya and my non understanding is mithya..so both are same.

Why do you bother about ruining of your thread..you are pure Atma right? why still indulging in mithya fights. :D

[sanathan]

Besides thinking this world as mithya (illusion) helps one to withdraw from it immediately.

It may not be true, if that was so all Advaitins would have not engaged in debates to prove their theory , they would not have engage in any of the worldy activities, what is there to work upon anyway for them ?

They have already realized their true state as BRHMAN and this world is unreal, so why do they want to stay in this world.

So the thoughts in their mind "world is mithya" and "I want to debate on with Mr.X to prove my point" co-exist..but the first thought should actually applies to his own thoughts and the locum of the thoughts , which means they very thought "world is mithya" becomes mithya..and he is in a indefinite loop.

[smaranam]

Dear Sanatan,

First, let us put aside all the philosophies. I do not want to prove anything to you. If this helps, fine. If not, fine. I am neither purva pakshi nor uttar/pashchim pakshi.

Also, for this to help, GRACE has to fall upon the one asking. To be conducive to Grace, open-mindedness is needed.
Nevertheless, I am glad you are resorting to common sense.



How does Atma 'know' about mind and where from compassion come into it?

AtmA in the form of Parameshwar runs to those seeking minds that turn to it. 3 types of quest-seeking minds - Arth arthArthi jidnyAsu.

Like this: http://www.madhwas.com/wp-content/gallery/gajendra/gajendra-moksham.jpg

aham AtmA, guDAkesha, jIva-bhUtAshayasthita
aham Adischa madhyam cha bhUtAnAm antameva cha - BG 10.20


THEN,


you can not get out of the loop unless you accept the experiencing nature of Atma itself. period.
Sure AtmA experiences the witnessing of the suffering minds. In the form of Parameshwar. I just told you :)

He intervenes, showers His grace, they live together but the mind has external strings attached. One fine day, suddenly the mind "gets it" steps aside, walks into the cave never to be seen again as an independant monkey, but only as a utility-tool-instrument of AtmA. This is ultimate surrender.

At which point exactly does that happen? When by the Grace of the Lotus Eyed One, the vishaya (objects) of interest of the mind are stark evident to it as pointless, purposeless, of no consequence, socially programmed, even organizationally programmed.

A new definition of mithya - adjective (not mithyA):
a) That which is of no consequence, pointless, purposeless
b) That which is NOT ORIGINAL. Anything other than the casue of all causes i.e. sarva kAraNa kAraNam, is mithya.

:)

As long as "everything else" is NOT YET mithya, pointless, purposeless, the seeking mind will not relent to this truth.

This far-out surrender stems from the mind having identified and sorted out the following from what that Kamalnayana, the inner Guru, has been making it understand all along.
-- the externally taught ideas from the real,
-- its own motives (- whom is it trying to impress? The world?)

Just as the cloud moves aside and the sun shines warmly, the independant mind hands itself, surrenders, literally, just like a repenting criminal would voluntarily surrender,
and AtmA shines through.

~ ~

[sanathan]

AtmA in the form of Parameshwar runs to those seeking minds that turn to it. 3 types of quest-seeking minds - Arth arthArthi jidnyAsu.



Sensible.

Surrendering everything whichever I feel as mine and me at the feet of jagath-karana tattva is the best way I see.

But I can not tolerate to the views/propagations like "I am god" and "you are God" while the very person who says so fighting in debates and still suffering in this mundane world. God must show them true path.

Some people pretend like intellectuals, yet they don't show any sign of logical sense.

Namasthe all!

May the ultimate source of everything gives us wisdom of surrendering the EGO at his lotus feet !

[Amrut]

All these definitions are your own, you can not show any valid pramana.

So I don't really care what your theory preaches, I care about your practical way .


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Brother, advaita can be practically applied. It's not mere philosophy. As you progress, you will feel peace within. Suffering is due to attachment. You have not gone through my posts. Please patiently read them if you wish to think with open mind, else leave it. Never mind. We do not need to learn all. Learn only that which one can practically apply in life.

Why is it that suffering or any pain, emotional or physical is not experienced in deep sleep?

All I can say is that you will need to sit at the feet of Guru, dedicate your life, learn from him brahma-vidyA and experience truth.

Turiya state is state of consciousness. This consciousness is the living force without with 'you' cannot live even for a moment. Body is temporary. Is it real?

I also request you to please read all posts peacefully before jumping to conclusion.

If advaita does not suit you it is fine.

Good luck for your spiritual progress. May God's grace descend upon us all and show us the correct path, the best that suits us. OM

Hari OM

[Amrut]

It may not be true, if that was so all Advaitins would have not engaged in debates to prove their theory , they would not have engage in any of the worldy activities, what is there to work upon anyway for them ?

They have already realized their true state as BRHMAN and this world is unreal, so why do they want to stay in this world.

So the thoughts in their mind "world is mithya" and "I want to debate on with Mr.X to prove my point" co-exist..but the first thought should actually applies to his own thoughts and the locum of the thoughts , which means they very thought "world is mithya" becomes mithya..and he is in a indefinite loop.


[/FONT][/COLOR]

Please refer to my posts #43 and #44 .

Neither you should be here, if you are engaged in bhakti. Not by discussing, but by increasing bhakti one can progress.

There is nothing to debate. Activity interaction, etc is because of not been able to dis-associate and become witness. Not able to disassociate does not mean that there is no will and attempts to dis-associate with non-self. It takes time to be a witness and be satisfied in your Self (Atmatrupta). Mind is too powerful, however, by the grace of God, it can be turned inwards, but do not expect it to turn inward in a flash. It takes time. It is work in progress.

Nothing is wrong in upadesha. When one really experiences mithyatva, he will be isolated. I have written it. But until then, mind sometimes takes it under our sway. But after the emotional outburst or emotional outlet, mind calms down. Viveki mana raises question and gives direction. Then it is upto individual to listen to our viveki mana or to let your mind loose.

If you talk about ajata vAda, then there is only maun, nothing else. Take it with a positive mind and read it will neutral mind, so that you can grasp what others are saying. You must not have read Ashtavakra Gita. It answers your doubts - moksha is also a desire and at last it also has to be dropped, but not before all other desires are uprooted.

[smaranam]

One fine day, suddenly the mind "gets it" steps aside, walks into the cave never to be seen again as an independant monkey, but only as a utility-tool-instrument of AtmA. This is ultimate surrender.


At which point exactly does that happen? When by the Grace of the Lotus Eyed One, the vishaya (objects) of interest of the mind are stark evident to it as pointless, purposeless, of no consequence, socially programmed, even organizationally programmed.

...and this happens with bhajan (devotional service, studying scriptures). Grace of the Lotus Eyed One, direct, indirect, in some form, with bhajan-kriyA and sAdhu-sanga (association of saints), and respect for santa mahAtmA /service to them , service to Parmeshwar via the santa.

shravaNam ( followed by mananam chintanam )
kIrtanam, vishnoh smaraNam
pAda-sevanam (also serving Lotus Feet of saints as if Bhagvan or His representatives)
vandana, archanam, dAsyam,
sakhyam ...
...
..
Atma-nivedanam - final surrender, advaita.

~ ~

[sanathan]

There is nothing to debate. Activity interaction, etc is because of not been able to dis-associate and become witness. Not able to disassociate does not mean that there is no will and attempts to dis-associate with non-self. It takes time to be a witness and be satisfied in your Self (Atmatrupta). Mind is too powerful, however, by the grace of God, it can be turned inwards, but do not expect it to turn inward in a flash. It takes time. It is work in progress.

Nothing is wrong in upadesha. When one really experiences mithyatva, he will be isolated. I have written it. But until then, mind sometimes takes it under our sway.

Namasthe,

No , I did not outrightly rejected the path of Advaita(your points in other posts), but my questions are on contradictions of the theory and practical approach they follow.

I do not claim the mithyatva of world and still work with it same time , which is the problem I raised.

If a person really thinks(realizes) that world is mithya, then he should not and can not do anything , advaita theoretically says mithyatva of world, but immediately asks to pray GOD and obtain his grace or contemplate on Atma tattva etc., if at all any man who is here right now needs to follow one or another path to get that TURIYA state..that path must be within mithyatva, so better we give some respect to that path instead of calling mithya . IS that my point clear.

On other note, initiator was preaching theory of "Jeeva is not bound to karma" which pulled me into this discussion, what kind of theory is that?
So what he is going to preach the world? Let us become lazy guys..since we are not loosing anything and gaining anything, everything is mithya..and we are already beyond bondage.

I have raised some basic questions, "who is the sufferer" and what is his relation between Atma, is the sufferer already beyond bondage, then why he needs to follow a path?

[Amrut]

Namasthe,

No , I did not outrightly rejected the path of Advaita(your points in other posts), but my questions are on contradictions of the theory and practical approach they follow.

I do not claim the mithyatva of world and still work with it same time , which is the problem I raised.

If a person really thinks(realizes) that world is mithya, then he should not and can not do anything , advaita theoretically says mithyatva of world, but immediately asks to pray GOD and obtain his grace or contemplate on Atma tattva etc., if at all any man who is here right now needs to follow one or another path to get that TURIYA state..that path must be within mithyatva, so better we give some respect to that path instead of calling mithya . IS that my point clear.

On other note, initiator was preaching theory of "Jeeva is not bound to karma" which pulled me into this discussion, what kind of theory is that?
So what he is going to preach the world? Let us become lazy guys..since we are not loosing anything and gaining anything, everything is mithya..and we are already beyond bondage.

I have raised some basic questions, "who is the sufferer" and what is his relation between Atma, is the sufferer already beyond bondage, then why he needs to follow a path?

Namaste,

As I have said earlier, you will have to dedicate some time to read it. Please calm down.

All advaitins are earlier smArta-s.

You must have also read Tai. up. 1/11 bhashya and other quotes from BG where Adi Shankara gives commentaries, that I gave in earlier post.

I humbly request you to please re read that post. Where is the mithyA? Of what use it is to do nitya karma? why Adi shankara advocates that one has to do nitya karma.

There is also one verse - asanga shastrena dradena chidvA in BG

It is this a-sanga shastra - knowledge of detachment by being witness.

Advaita theory says mithyAtva from pAramArthika satya and not vyAvahArika satya.

what is your opinion about bhaja govindam and other hymms that Adi Shankara composed.

In fact, if he thought the world world is mithyA, why at all write commentaries, why preach to illusionary world. why go on digvijay yatra?

There is something there we have not understood OR
Adi Shankara has failed

what is the truth? what do you think?

All paths and every mental activity is within mAyA, including meditation (nidhidhyAsana). Brother advaita is the final state. No one denies of God's grace. Advaita does not reject dvaita. It only asks us to rise utthisthatA, jAgrata ...

Just as nitya karma is dropped after one attains inner purity. Why does shastra-s ask us to drop the very karma that gave us inner purity?

To encourage a person into any karma, one has to sing it's praise, give it's advantages and lofty fruits it will give us. When time comes to go beyond nitya karma, it's limitationd are stressed (e.g. it will lead you to heaven, etc).

When you want to cross river, you need boat. So advantages of boat are highlighted e.g. it will not drown you. When you reach opposite bank, you will have to drop the very boat that helped you cross river. Boat has to be dropped, else how can you complete your journey.

Will you ever keep criticizing the boat? Initially, to separate you from boat and to neutralize your attachment towards boat, it's limitation are said or say boat is criticized, like the boat is of no use, etc.

What is the intention behind such saying? to make fun of boat? or to make fun of traveller?

The intention is always good, to help seeker progress, as it is not end of road.

It is in this sense that the world is described a mithyA. Not to make fun of it, but to raise advance sadhaka beyond 3 guNa-s. Considering mithya does not help. One has to experience the same, else it is mere philosophy.

Please understand that never ever there is any intention to discredit ishvara, mAyA or this world and make fun of all of them. Without the grace of mAyA, one cannot rise above it. It is not in our capacity to rise above.

Only thing is that mAyA is not focussed. this world is not focussed. Focus is not Brahman, which is beyond 3 guNa-s. There is no ego problem, nor disrespect, nor denigration, not all are encouraged to take this path. Only those who are inwardly pure due to intense tapas or due to merits of punya karma can effectively practice advaita path.

I repeat again, dis-association does not happen in a flash. It takes time. It is in this time that we do what we do. Human nature comes into play.

What is given stress is important. Mind is attraction to what is important.

Yogi will be concerned to raise his kundalini, while bhakta will not bother about it. All a bhakta wants is to have darshan of his beloved lord and always be at his lotus feet. If kundalini rises well and good, it is doesn't no problem. But a Yogi will not believe that you can progress without rising your kundalini. Advaitin will stay neutral to kudalini activation and stays neutral to all experiences in meditation.

Upadesha-s are given on adhekAra bheda and these is creating confusion making you to think that teachings are not consistent.

One Guru can give 2 answers to one question and both are true, but to people with different mindsets.

Q: Guru ji is sanyasa necessary?

Answer can be both Yes and No.

I hope you get my point.

[Amrut]

On other note, initiator was preaching theory of "Jeeva is not bound to karma" which pulled me into this discussion, what kind of theory is that?
So what he is going to preach the world? Let us become lazy guys..since we are not loosing anything and gaining anything, everything is mithya..and we are already beyond bondage.

I will not engage and speak for what OP is saying.


I have raised some basic questions, "who is the sufferer" and what is his relation between Atma, is the sufferer already beyond bondage, then why he needs to follow a path?Suffering is due to attachment. Jiva is the one who is attached to mind, body and ego. Hence jiva is the sufferer. When attachment drops, jiva becomes Shiva. Destruction of desires is nothing but liberation. Actually Jiva does not become Shiva, Jiv ais Shiva, as what you are doing in the entire progress of meditation is to detach what is non-self, by being a witness. Finally nothing else is left ot be seen. The observer is the only one who is left. But the word observer indicates dual tone. So what is left is you 'I', the real 'I' Brahman. For explanatory purpose we are taught in dual tone. After dissatisfied desires of this and past life / lives are burned and naturally one remains detached with body and so this world, one abides in True self - Brahman.

Attachment is due to ignorance. Hence sadhana is to remove ignorance.

He needs to follow path to dis-associate with body, mind (which is responsible for suffering) and dis-associate or detach with sense object.

One only needs to do auto suggestion 'I want to sleep, I am sleeping, my eyes are getting heavy, etc' until you fall asleep. When you have entered into sleep, you do not need to keep repeating auto suggestions.

I have answered your questions, because I trust you that you are a genuine seeker and are not here just for the sake of argument.

Aum

[hinduism♥krishna]

Devotees's view on atma's bondage and liberation .He sended me a message like this :


My take on this issue :

Let's assume that a person is dreaming and seeing himself in the dream acting in a manner which is different from the real dreamer. The dream character acting as the other self of dreamer doesn't take any guidance/instructions from the dreamer to act. He acts as if he is an individual with his own separate consciousness but he is just a product of "chidAbhAs' of dreamer's consciousness. The dream-actor and the dream-seer are same here (as they essentially inseparable same consciousness) but are apparently entirely different till the dream continues.

Actually this is a very peculiar characteristic of Consciousness ... it is the only "thing" (if use of this word is pardonable) which can simultaneously apparently act in multitude and yet remaining One from the beginning to the end of the MAyic activities.

Everyone cannot understand this very subtle subject. Proper understanding of "ChidAbhAsa" phenomenon is a must before one can have an acceptable extent of understanding of how MaYA acts.

[sanathan]

Suffering is due to attachment. Jiva is the one who is attached to mind, body and ego. Hence jiva is the sufferer. When attachment drops, jiva becomes Shiva. Destruction of desires is nothing but liberation. Actually Jiva does not become Shiva, Jiv ais Shiva, as what you are doing in the entire progress of meditation is to detach what is non-self, by being a witness. Finally nothing else is left ot be seen. The observer is the only one who is left. But the word observer indicates dual tone. So what is left is you 'I', the real 'I' Brahman. For explanatory purpose we are taught in dual tone. After dissatisfied desires of this and past life / lives are burned and naturally one remains detached with body and so this world, one abides in True self - Brahman.

Attachment is due to ignorance. Hence sadhana is to remove ignorance.

He needs to follow path to dis-associate with body, mind (which is responsible for suffering) and dis-associate or detach with sense object.

One only needs to do auto suggestion 'I want to sleep, I am sleeping, my eyes are getting heavy, etc' until you fall asleep. When you have entered into sleep, you do not need to keep repeating auto suggestions.


Aum

Namasthe!

I have gone through all of your posts, and most of the matter is agreeable, but I still have doubts on few points which seem to me as irrational if not false in reality.

First problem I have come across is , various Advaitins have various versions (or at least it is understood as such by me).
But I was convinced when you said adhikara bheda can be reason .

But still I use to think..why can not Advaita say TRUTHs as it is at all levels, for example BRAHMAN or pure consciousness is the TRUTH without any change it can be told as such to all(without looking at adhikaari bheda), similarly if world is mithya or more clearly a changing entity and is not the real nature of saadhaka to attach with but it is the only tool from where he has to start his journey to get liberated, it can be communicated to Sadhaka as such.

No problem, above is not a serious issue.

The second one I see is, distinction between "current experiencer" or "sadhaka" and final entity that gets liberated as per Advaita.

I will explain it more clearly.

Some advaitins I met are very affirmative that the current experiencer of sufferings (or the one who is actually starts sadhana to get out of this mundane experiences) is just mind or a mithya jeeva , and SELF is pure consciousness untouched by any karma or maya.

If the very sadhaka or sufferer is mithya mind why does that mithya sadhaka needs to do sadhana which is again mithya, what is the exact relation between pure blissful SELF and this sufferer.

In some of your quotes, you compared the boat as mithya sadhana ..that is all fine, but my concern is on the very traveller, the one who wants to cross river is still there after crossing river, and he is the one who experiences all 3 states (sleep,waking,deep sleep).

Please note that I am not equating the mental feelings or feeling of individuality(I am so and so) or any thoughts with experiencer , what I am saying is the very knower of different states is the sadhaka and he wants to be happy.

Probably we can meet sometime , somewhere and discuss on my doubts.
:)

[hinduism♥krishna]

Dear sanathana and all other brothers.

I request you to read my "You are god -part 2 " thread in vaishnawa forum.
See there how atma is bramhan, how jiva merges in krishna with proofs from bhagavata purana.

Visit :)

Thank you.

[sanathan]

Let's assume that a person is dreaming and seeing himself in the dream acting in a manner which is different from the real dreamer. The dream character acting as the other self of dreamer doesn't take any guidance/instructions from the dreamer to act. He acts as if he is an individual with his own separate consciousness but he is just a product of "chidAbhAs' of dreamer's consciousness. The dream-actor and the dream-seer are same here (as they essentially inseparable same consciousness) but are apparently entirely different till the dream continues.


Dream characters are not the same as SEER, they are impressions stored in his mind .
A point missed in above theory is difference between the consciousness and conscious being .

Conscious being is the dreamer and experiencer of dream..but the dream characters are "experiences" of the dreamer (that means if you experience a snake in waking state..that experience or knowledge is stored as impression and reappears in dream).

I don't know what is the need to equate the experience and experiencer.

Knoweldge and knower are not same , but they are inseparable, it is simple fact that can be validated by direct perception, not sure why are you making it complex.

Probably because of this wrong equation , Advaita is trying to negate the JEEVA as mithya .. not sure , need to talk to some Advaita acharyas.


Actually this is a very peculiar characteristic of Consciousness ... it is the only "thing" (if use of this word is pardonable) which can simultaneously apparently act in multitude and yet remaining One from the beginning to the end of the MAyic activities.

Yes, but it acts upon the conscious-being that who is having it, consciousuness is multitude, we don't need to know rocket science to know that fact. In day to day life..we are knowing multiple things simultaneously , example , we hear with ears and know about some sound, same time see something with eyes and know that..so consciousness is shining forth through different mediums , but all those different experiences reach a single being. he is unique..though his knowledge is multitude.

[hinduism♥krishna]

Hello everyone ,

Did anyone read my " you are god -part 2 " thread ?
I don't see any comments there .

[smaranam]

Conscious being is the dreamer and experiencer of dream..but the dream characters are "experiences" of the dreamer (that means if you experience a snake in waking state..that experience or knowledge is stored as impression and reappears in dream).
That is correct, about past impressions. Sometimes it is about future.
One may have a dream with their close ones in it - such as child, parent sibling etc. They wake up puzzled. Some time into the near future, what was seen happening to the child/parent/sibling is actually happening to them or applicable to them (the dreamer) in the real world.

Also, experience and impression are within the dreamer not outside.

[smaranam]

In other words, sometimes (NOT ALWAYS) the "third person" in the dream could be an aspect of the dreamer's personality, and not actually the third person in waking state. It is these type of dreams that are used for analogy.

[Amrut]

Namaste Sanathan :)


Namasthe!

I have gone through all of your posts, and most of the matter is agreeable, but I still have doubts on few points which seem to me as irrational if not false in reality.

First problem I have come across is , various Advaitins have various versions (or at least it is understood as such by me).
But I was convinced when you said adhikara bheda can be reason .

But still I use to think..why can not Advaita say TRUTHs as it is at all levels, for example BRAHMAN or pure consciousness is the TRUTH without any change it can be told as such to all(without looking at adhikaari bheda), similarly if world is mithya or more clearly a changing entity and is not the real nature of saadhaka to attach with but it is the only tool from where he has to start his journey to get liberated, it can be communicated to Sadhaka as such.

No problem, above is not a serious issue.

Thank you for taking time to read all my related posts.

AdhikAra bheda is the main reason. Another one is the way of explanation. Same thing is conveyed in different ways. In shastra-s, it is said that there are 32 different types of Brahma Vidya-s like Dahara Vidya, Shandilya Vidya, etc. They may talk differently, but the main aim or destination is the knowledge of Brahman (Since I am an Advaitin, it is natural to talk from advaita POV. Brahman is more natural than Vishnu dham)

The goal has to be one - Knowledge of Self. While setting this goal, adhikAri bheda is not applicable. Answers depend upon mental make-up of answerer and mental status of questioner *at that time*

The real nature is of Soul is described and we are told this world is mithyA. But updesha, which illumines intellect has to illumine heart to i.e. it has to be transformed into direct experience.

In order to have this experience, teachings has to be practically applied. In this context, depending upon the doubts raised, solutions, tips, and applications differ. WE all have different mindsets and are grown-up is different environment. What is applicable to you may not be applicable to me.

e.g. to me, Guru can say, meditate till 10.00 am and reach my office late, as I am son of businessmen, but you may be doing job and you need to reach at 9.00 am. So this upadesha is not applicable. Agian, upadesha-s given to married men and unmarried men are different. To a married man, you cannot say, ignore your wife and kids.

We will talk about different ways of teachings

1. Top-down (what you are saying) - difficult, practically applicable by only a few.
2. Bottom-up - easily understood and practically applicable by many.


This topic needs to be discussed elaborately and will require to type and commitment from both of us.

I will try to be as brief as possible.


Top-down approach

Neti-Neti

Naa-iti, Naa-iti, not this, not this i.e separate Self from Non-Self. How? by being a witness to thoughts in meditation. Atma ShaTaka / NirvANa ShaTaka is of this e.g.


Bottom-up approach.

Here, duality is considered and student is asked to rise above it. To transcend, to merge, to rise above guNa-s, etc type of instructions are of this type. You will find this in abundance in shastra-s.

e.g. different sheaths are described. This denotes spiritual progress and experience of these sheaths by sadhaka. Finally all 5 sheaths are described and it is said to rise above them too.

OM chanting.

Importance of OM can known by the fact that an entire Upanishad (Mandukya Upanishad) is dedicated to explain only OM. OM is found in almost all 10 upanishads and in many major upanishad. OM represents nirAkAra Brahman.

Here, you have a mantra, there is something for mind to hold on to. If mind is detached form body and world, it need to hold on to something. It holds on to mantra OM. Finally it learns to just be aware. Later on one is aware of OM and finally merges in it's source. Result is the same.

This can be discussed at length. But will be extremely time consuming. Perhaps people how is meditating on OM can better understand than a rational thinker.

Out of 100 %, 99 % adapt bottom-up approach and is generally OM chanting. In this 1 %, advanced seekers who actually apply top-down approach are 99 % nitya mukta-s, ones with dev-ansh or avatars, who have descended to uplift humanity.

Hence if we talk about human beings, who have purified their chitta, 99.9 % take AdhAra of OM.

But when it comes to *debate*, invariable Top-down approach is adopted to gain victory and show how consistent advaita is with veda-s and how it does not violate any statement of shruti. If the person debating is not matured enough and is words are not backed by the power AtmAnubhAva (Self Experience), then he may get defeated. This is why all acharyas including Vaishnava acharyas stressed more on experienced and practice than mere philosophy or tarka. The one who is rooted in Self cannot be defeated, as he knows all answers. But the one who is not practicing neti-neti and then goes not to enter into debate to prove superioty of his sampradAya, he may not be able to answer sutble questions which can only be answered is one has passed through that stage.

Can you talk about what happens to kundalini when it reaches anAhata charka if you yourself has never experienced it?

It is in this way that Adi Shankara was undisputed, undefeated champion. Same holds true to Vaishnava acharya-s. In short, experience is the key. Shrotriya and Brahma NiSTha :)


The second one I see is, distinction between "current experiencer" or "sadhaka" and final entity that gets liberated as per Advaita.

I will explain it more clearly.

Some advaitins I met are very affirmative that the current experiencer of sufferings (or the one who is actually starts sadhana to get out of this mundane experiences) is just mind or a mithya jeeva , and SELF is pure consciousness untouched by any karma or maya.

If the very sadhaka or sufferer is mithya mind why does that mithya sadhaka needs to do sadhana which is again mithya, what is the exact relation between pure blissful SELF and this sufferer.

In some of your quotes, you compared the boat as mithya sadhana ..that is all fine, but my concern is on the very traveller, the one who wants to cross river is still there after crossing river, and he is the one who experiences all 3 states (sleep,waking,deep sleep).

Please note that I am not equating the mental feelings or feeling of individuality(I am so and so) or any thoughts with experiencer , what I am saying is the very knower of different states is the sadhaka and he wants to be happy.MithyAtva is realized only when one is rooted in truth. To remove the mithyAtva, one has to meditate.

Sri Ramakrishna says, if a thorn is pierced in your feet, you feel pain. Can you get rid of pain, by mearly saying, there is nothing like thorn, I do not feel any pain, etc.

One has to take another thorn (Jnana), prick and remove the first thorn (ajnana) with the help of second thorn AND throw away both thorns.

As I have said earlier, debates are different, but practice is different.

Only for the ones who are self realized, there is uniformity in his sayings.

So by just assuming that you are Brahman, the problem is not solved. The suffering, pleasure and pain continue. Only when you rise above all of these, then the realization occurs that all of it was futile, not before. Those truths are realizations from standpoint of supreme reality.

You meditate and realize, but upon realizing you come to a conclusion that the meditator was not different than the one who was meditated upon. Now in state of Jnana, you can say it is all useless. There is no meditator. This is only and only for those who have entered into Samadhi, but somehow, they think they they still do need to meditate to enter into Samadhi. To break the jinx, only and only to them, this question is raised – Who is the one who is meditating … and the knowledge dawns. One effortlessly enters into non-dual state.

This upadesha is not for those who are hankering in worldly life and for those whose consciousness is strongly embedded in their physical body. That seeker already knew the true Self. But he could not stay permenantly in this state. So he has to meditate. Perhaps he gave extreme importance to meditation and by meditating, he has uprooted all desires except a few like I want to meditate and I want moksha. Hence to break the jinx, such statements are made.

Upon realization you can say, everything is mithyA, not before. Hence Advaitins meditate on OM, there is still duality, or say multiplicity, ‘I” and OM and process of meditation.

IF you say, everything is mithyA but you yourself are under ignorance, then it is like seeing snake and saying that I see rope.

It is true that there is only rope, and snake is just illusion and this illusion (mAyA) disappears when light (knowledge) is thrown on snake and rope appears in it's place.

This is rope - is realization not philosophy. Seeking ends here.

Until you are withing mAyA, the efforts to reach non-dual state are to be made.

Are you getting the point.

Also note that I have note considered Boat as mithyA sAdhana, but just sAdhana :)


Probably we can meet sometime, somewhere and discuss on my doubts.
:) If God wishes, sure we will :)

In case you wish to talk outside HDF email me at indiaspirituality [at] gmail.com

[Amrut]

In other words,

This world is mithyA,
Only Brahman is Truth,
I am Brahman,
I am not Jiva, etc

are to be realized and not just believed.

The journey is from ignorance to Knowledge.

After knowledge (Jnana), throw away shahstra-s. Shastra-s say that wise men discard shastra-s (as the purpose is fulfilled)

Until the truths are not realized, it is 'Work in Progress' :)

Here lies difficulty. Those who meditate know well. Chapter 13 is my favourite, it is the beginning of sadhana of Jnana marg. Refer LAst verse which says two things

13.35 Those who know thus through the eye of wisdom the distinction between the field and the Knower of the field, AND the annihilation of the Matrix of beings,-they reach the Supreme.

So we have to read this chapter and see what the two things are

Witness is described in beginning verses and annihilation of matrix

13.2 The Blessed Lord said -- O son of Kunti, this body is referred to as the 'field'. Those who are versed in this call him who is conscious of it as the 'knower of the field'.

13.13 I shall speak of that which is to be known, by realizing which one attains Immortality. The supreme Brahman is without any beginning. That is called neither being nor non-being.

Attribute of witness - AdhyAropa
annihilation of matrix - apavAda


I missed adhyAropa apavAda in earlier post.

*False* Superimposition followed by subsequent retraction

But who knows that the superimposition is *false*. Though it is the truth, it has to be realized.What then until you do not realize? Think? It is a destination, that has to be reached :)

Hence Gita does not end with 13.13, it goes on till chapter 18 :)

I hope this much hammering is enough.

Aum

[devotee]

Namaste,

When we discuss spiritual things we must be clear on our frameworks wherein we are discussing. Slowly, this thread has moved towards proving if Advaita is a correct path or not logically/scientifically and the onus of proving that has been left to the OP. However, this thread doesn't aim towards proving that. It accepts scriptural authority as axioms and from there it proceeds.

There have been many discussions on this issue on this forum and my stand is that there is no point in trying to prove that one path is superior to the other. The ocean of spirituality is calling us to dive in and collect gems with whatever technique we choose. Bhakti or JnAna ... start doing it whatever appeals to you ... the time is short and death is knocking at the door of life. There are God-realised souls and Self-realised souls in both the paths. They have proven that both the paths are valid. Ramkrishna Paramahansa has treaded both the paths. In his wisdom and wisdom of many saints, Bhakti is the first requirement before treading the path of JnAna.

Again, we should guards ourselves against getting carried away with "fallacious logic" when we don't understand what axioms we have taken for applying a certain logic in a given situation/framework. Any logic is valid only within its framework of axioms and not beyond that. This has to be understood. I will take a simple example to clarify :

What is Mithya ... it is neither real not unreal. Now, some of us can say that it is oxymoron to say so but :

Let's see we see a red flower. Now we know that colour actually have no existence. It is only when a light wave of certain wavelength falls on our retina and our optical nerves send signal to brain ... we perceive a particular colour. Now, perception of colour red in flower is Mithya which is neither real nor unreal. It is unreal as there is no colour in an electromagnetic wave independent of eye-brain instrument. It is real because in the world perceived by our mind, we work with that colour as if it was real.

Similarly, a rock-solid wall in front of us looks without any space within .... but reality is that it is more than 99.99 % space, if we keep atomic structure in mind. But even while breaking that wall into pieces we cannot find that space or work with it. So, rock-solid wall in front of us is real for our worldly experience but it has no real existence in absence of this mind which perceives it as such.

There are many such concepts that we must open our minds to accept when we are trying to understand something from which mind originates and therefore That is beyond mental concepts. No articulation of speech can describe Brahman or Advaitic experiences.

***********

Let's spend more time on meditating on the Self within our hearts. That Self is Krishna ... that is Shiva and that is Mother Goddess and that alone is non-dual Brahman. Pray and meditate ... meditate and pray ... that is the right way. Spiritual theory which cannot be experienced is farce. Like Buddha said, "Appo Deepo Bhava". All such talks are "Fingers pointing to the moon" and not the moon Itself.

OM

[hinduism♥krishna]

Namaste ,devotee.

Welcome ! You are my most favourite here on this forum. I really got inspired from you. You are krishna devotee and advaitian. This is the most perfect combination :)

Btw, you can check my "you are god -part 2 " thread. If I have done mistakes, let me know.

Thank you.Hari hari

[Amrut]

Namaste,

When we discuss spiritual things we must be clear on our frameworks wherein we are discussing. Slowly, this thread has moved towards proving if Advaita is a correct path or not logically/scientifically and the onus of proving that has been left to the OP. However, this thread doesn't aim towards proving that. It accepts scriptural authority as axioms and from there it proceeds.



Namaste Devotee ji :)

I guess I have made a mess, as I was much involved in this thread.

Aum

[sanathan]

Let's see we see a red flower. Now we know that colour actually have no existence. It is only when a light wave of certain wavelength falls on our retina and our optical nerves send signal to brain ... we perceive a particular colour. Now, perception of colour red in flower is Mithya which is neither real nor unreal. It is unreal as there is no colour in an electromagnetic wave independent of eye-brain instrument. It is real because in the world perceived by our mind, we work with that colour as if it was real.

Similarly, a rock-solid wall in front of us looks without any space within .... but reality is that it is more than 99.99 % space, if we keep atomic structure in mind. But even while breaking that wall into pieces we cannot find that space or work with it. So, rock-solid wall in front of us is real for our worldly experience but it has no real existence in absence of this mind which perceives it as such.


Perhaps we discussed about these earlier , the problem is with the comparison of different perceptions perceived at different times using different levels of consciousness through different mediums.

It is a simple fact that same being can not perceive red color of a flower and same time colorless electro-magnetic wave.

Thers is no problem in calling one perception as unreal with respect to other perception..

But actual question raised in this topic is not related to various perceptions and their comparison, it was about the very perceiver of all those perceptions.

The very relation between the current experiencer and the SELF which has been equated with experiencer in statement "I am GOD".

The person hearing or reading the statement "I am GOD" is a common man who is mis-identifying himself with body-mind .

Not sure why my simple questions are not being understood.

One more last time I would try it:

When OP described the meaning of few verses from Bhagavatam as "Jeeva is without liberation and bondage" , so what does sadhaka needs to do? does he have anything pending to do since he is already beyond the mithya?

In more simple terms, we have come to know three concepts 1. SELF 2. mithya 3. current person talking about these.

I was looking for a clear relation among these 3.

Because , 1. if the current person (you or me) is already beyond maya , then he has nothing to do 2. If current person himself is mithya , then also he has nothing to do since he himself is mithya 3. If current person is within maya , but after sadhana he can realize his nature being SELF, then what was the reason the his nature being SELF came into the clutches of maya

Without getting answer to these 3 questions..I can not go forward in Sadhana, because the very sadhana is based on the clear understanding of those 3 concepts.

I hope you understand it.

Lastly, I don't really care the interpretations of scriptural statements unless they have a logical sense. I strongly follow "sruthi-yukthi-anubhava", if you ignore the yukthi, then other 2 are not valid for me.

Dhanyavaad all for your time.

[Amrut]

Namaste Sanatan,

As I have said, there is duality or say multiplicity. The efforts are made to rise beyond duality by being witness and later on nothing is left to see. This effort may be reading shastra-s, contemplation, sravaNa and meditation.

It is only after being free we can say (backed by experience) that jiva was never bound.
But why say it before one is liberated?

Take it as a destination. It is a road map. It does not mean that you are currently experiencing the statement 'I am Brahman'

Just like Krishna in Gita talks about sthita Prajna (which we take it as description of Self Realized person) in chapter 2. Why would he talk in such way in chapter 2 immediately after vishAda yoga? Why not in 18 chapter?

You need a road map and a destination where you will land.

If you wish to know and visit Delhi, you must know

1. Path leading to Delhi from your home (starting point) and
2. description of destination (end point), so that you can know that you have finally reached Delhi.

When you are on route, it's like 'work in progress', but every step ?(attempt) made is to decrease the distance between you and your destination. In other words, you come closer to destination.

Efforts are made to enter non-dual state (end point), but the starting point should not be forgotten.

Certain statements are not upadeshaka, they talk about final destination. Certain statements talk about duality (your current state). The journey is from this dual state to non-dual state.

This post was short and sweet.

For the rest, it's between you and OP :D

Aum

[Amrut]

I just had a thought brother.

Tatva Jnana is not for everybody. Hence certain truths eerrh certain things should not be disclosed in public - no offences Sir.

I hope you are getting my point.

You should not approach anyone and say 'You are God' - Clear? crystal clear :D

Jai Shri RAma

[hinduism♥krishna]

I just had a thought brother.

Tatva Jnana is not for everybody. Hence certain truths eerrh certain things should not be disclosed in public - no offences Sir.

I hope you are getting my point.

You should not approach anyone and say 'You are God' - Clear? crystal clear :D

Jai Shri RAma

:) Right , tatwa dnyana is not for everyone . Shri krishna has stated in uddhava gita that he had hidden the actual truth of veda . Sages like to describe the unity of atma and bramhan indirecly . Everyone is not elligible to hear this three words " aham bramhasmi " . So krishna says there "I also like to say non-dual unity of atma and bramhan indirectly .

Initially , guru never direcly gives " aham bramhasmi " or bramhavidya . When one gets elligible with his purified mind and when one discards the duality completely , then only guru instructs " you are bramhan "

Take the example of shukadeva and his disciple parikshita . Before the 11th skandha , shukadeva never gave the knowledge of unity of atma and bramhan directly . However when parikshita got puried by listening lilas of krishna , when parikshita discarded all dualities from his mind , when he realised himself different from jiva by listening the divine conversation between krishna and uddhava , he was very fit to hear that ultimate knowledge . So at the end , shukadeva says to parikshita " You are bramhan himself .You are that absolute reality .You are that absolute abode . Look , you are the lord of all things , so why you are getting frightened of takshaka snake ? When you will realise your self , you won't see anything different from yourself . Even this universe would be non-different from you , then what to talk about this takshaka ? So where is the grief for you ? All this is verily atma .There is nothing other than self. So How can be there fear of anything ? If self is all pervading , how can be there fear of oneself . Think about it . You should fix in your mind that "I am he " . O sinless king ,only this is the aim of entire bhagavat purana . This is what I have been trying to say .This is the purpot of entire vedanta . Is there anything remained to listen now ? :)


hari hari krishna

[Amrut]

Namaste HLK

What you say is right

Yours Truly

Krishna Lover and an Advaitin :)

Hari OM

[devotee]

Namaste Sanathan,


I was looking for a clear relation among these 3.

1. if the current person (you or me) is already beyond maya , then he has nothing to do

See, a person is an entity (mithya) created by ChidAbhAsa phenomenon. The person as person is Self + MAyA. Here, Self provides its reflection like Sun provides its light to moon or a fused bulb being lighted by the light of a working bulb from behind. The Self is the substratum and MAyA is the instrument which creates this entity. It is neither real nor unreal. It is real because it acts as an independent entity. It is unreal as when JnAna shines and teh veil of MAyA is lifted, it realises that it is non-different from Brahman. This Self-realisation has been described by the Self-realised souls as a wave of the sea realsiing that it is non-different from the Sea. Kabir said on this phenomenon : "Everyone has seen a drop of water merging into the sea. I have seen the sea merging into the drop of water."

Are you able to understand the phenomenon of ChidAbhAsa ? If not, you should anlayse the dream phenomenon more deeply. Someone has tried here to explain this dream phenomenon to you but you have dismissed it as only past impressions in mind and nothing else. This simplistic analysis won't help us. See, if the dreams were nothing but revisiting our past impressions gathered in our waking time, then the phenomenon that happened in the waking time must be repeated in the same way but that doesn't happen in the dream. The characters in the dream cannot act in a manner the dreamer doesn't want or in a manner the dreamer is not aware of, if the story is written by the dreamer or everything is in dreamer's control. But we do know that nightmares do happen which no dreamer wants. For playing a role in the dream drama and for acting differently from other characters in the dream, every character must have its own "i" i.e. its own apparently separate mind.

Do you agree with the above ? Please try to recollect any of your bad dreams and try to understand how a particular character in the dream acted in a manner you never wanted. I would like to hear your views on this.

Again, you are missing something when you use the word, "Mithya". I have stated that "Mithya" doesn't mean it doesn't exist ... it exists within the relative framework created by the Cosmic mind. It has no existence when we see from Absolute state. There is nothing in this world which is not mithya. You can scientifically see it. You may like to refer a thread and see my posts therein --- the thread is "Creation and Advaita" http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=846&page=16 started by Nirotu in Advaita forum.

Once you understand this phenomenon, your other questions will be automatically answered.

OM

[jopmala]

Namaste
I would like to write the back ground of making of Bhagavat puran by maharshi veda vyas . This is so because all the arguments in favour of advaita philosophy that brahman satya jagat mithya jiva is brahman aham brahmasmi tat tvam asi brahman has no form or attributes brahman + maya = iswara ( sri krishna) etc etc have been discussed in Vedanta sutra which is an early exposition of the vedanta interpretation of the Upanishad by veda vyas but still he was not happy. Bhakti yoga to the supreme being is what the Vedas are ultimately meant to establish had not yet been prominently presented in the literature Vyasadeva had written. Now he was trying to understand the cause of his discontentment. then his guru Narad muni came and asked him “ why do you look so worried ? you know and have written everything but still you are unhappy”
Vyasadeva replied “ O gurudev I do not know, please tell me why I am unhappy ?”
Narada muni said “ you have given preference to dharma artha kama moksha but you have not written about madhur Lila of sri Krishna bhagavan. you have not written that Krishna the supreme Lord can come in the form of a beautiful son, you have not written that he goes door to door to the houses of all the gopies stealing their butter as well as their hearts” ultimately by the mercy of Narad muni vyasadeva written srimad bhagavat also called the bhagavat purana. after doing so vyasadeva considered it his own commentary on the Vedanta sutras and the complete explanation and conclusion of all vedic philosophy. The bhagavat being vyasadeva’s own commentary on all the Vedanta philosophy brings to light all the different aspects of the absolute truth as the final conclusion of all vedic understanding. This is why those who are impersonalists or monists believing Brahman has no form never reach the bhagavatam in their vedic studies.But if they read the bhagavat they are likely to interprete it in an impersonalistic way and thus deprive themselves of the lila rasa which they could never think to derive from it.

[hinduism♥krishna]

Namaste
I would like to write the back ground of making of Bhagavat puran by maharshi veda vyas . This is so because all the arguments in favour of advaita philosophy that brahman satya jagat mithya jiva is brahman aham brahmasmi tat tvam asi brahman has no form or attributes brahman + maya = iswara ( sri krishna) etc etc have been discussed in Vedanta sutra which is an early exposition of the vedanta interpretation of the Upanishad by veda vyas but still he was not happy. Bhakti yoga to the supreme being is what the Vedas are ultimately meant to establish had not yet been prominently presented in the literature Vyasadeva had written. Now he was trying to understand the cause of his discontentment. then his guru Narad muni came and asked him “ why do you look so worried ? you know and have written everything but still you are unhappy”
Vyasadeva replied “ O gurudev I do not know, please tell me why I am unhappy ?”
Narada muni said “ you have given preference to dharma artha kama moksha but you have not written about madhur Lila of sri Krishna bhagavan. you have not written that Krishna the supreme Lord can come in the form of a beautiful son, you have not written that he goes door to door to the houses of all the gopies stealing their butter as well as their hearts” ultimately by the mercy of Narad muni vyasadeva written srimad bhagavat also called the bhagavat purana. after doing so vyasadeva considered it his own commentary on the Vedanta sutras and the complete explanation and conclusion of all vedic philosophy. The bhagavat being vyasadeva’s own commentary on all the Vedanta philosophy brings to light all the different aspects of the absolute truth as the final conclusion of all vedic understanding. This is why those who are impersonalists or monists believing Brahman has no form never reach the bhagavatam in their vedic studies.But if they read the bhagavat they are likely to interprete it in an impersonalistic way and thus deprive themselves of the lila rasa which they could never think to derive from it.

Namaste , jopamala.

Please don't put here your distorted translations and myths propagated by iskcon . You didn't mention any verse and chapter number. Besides , after reading this post , I read all the conversation between vyasamuni and narada. I didn't find any verses stating in the way you think .

It is more than impossible what you have said . Your (mis)interpretations are contradicting to what shri krishna ,sutaji and shukadevaji said in 11th and 12th canto of bhagavat purana..

See this thread if you are open-minded : http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=12337

Wherein ; Sutaji have clearely said that the aim of this bhagavat purana is the non-dual unity of atma and bramhan .

For your info , shri krishna has explained everything in 8th chapter of gita . There shri krishna says that there are two "avyakta " One is called as temporary avyakta wherein all jivas merges at the end of bramha's day. It is also called as "asambhuti" . The another avyakta is beyond that .It is akshara (imperishable) and eternal (permananent) . This " avyakta akshara " is confirmed as the real nature of shri krishna by himself . (BG 8.21) . We vaishnawas hold that avyakta which is the real abode of vishnu. This avyakta means which is beyond form and formless concepts of our mind . But scriptures generally expresses it as "formless " just to negate the form . Thus they very confidently says that bramhan has no any form.

Yes there is nothing higher than devotion of krishna . But know that this devotion is the ladder by which devotee reaches and attains that akshara bramhan . Shri krishna has said in gita " After the exclusive devotion of me , he enterS into that supreme ."

In that conversation , narada explains the importance of krishna-lila . Narada knew that people would be dull witted in kaliyuga .They won't able to grasp the ultimate knowledge of veda and upanishadas . So narada instructs vyasa to write bhagavat purana which should be full of knowledge and lilas . By reading that lilas , people will surely cross that maya . This was the aim of bhagavata purana and this is verily for the advaitian vaishnawas .

BTW , I request you to read my thread .The thread link is posted above .

HARI KRISHNA.

[sanathan]

I read all the conversation between vyasamuni and narada. I didn't find any verses stating in the way you think .

Namasthe!

Bhagavatm: 1.5.5:

vyāsa uvāca
asty eva me sarvam idaṁ tvayoktaṁ
 tathāpi nātmā parituṣyate me
tan-mūlam avyaktam agādha-bodhaṁ
 pṛcchāmahe tvātma-bhavātma-bhūtam

1.5.8



śrī-nārada uvāca
bhavatānudita-prāyaṁ
 yaśo bhagavato �malam
yenaivāsau na tuṣyeta
 manye tad darśanaṁ khilam

If you know Sanskrit well, interpret yourself, or ask anyone who is well educated in Sanskrit .

[sanathan]

See, a person is an entity (mithya) created by ChidAbhAsa phenomenon. The person as person is Self + MAyA. Here, Self provides its reflection like Sun provides its light to moon or a fused bulb being lighted by the light of a working bulb from behind. The Self is the substratum and MAyA is the instrument which creates this entity. It is neither real nor unreal. It is real because it acts as an independent entity. It is unreal as when JnAna shines and teh veil of MAyA is lifted, it realises that it is non-different from Brahman. This Self-realisation has been described by the Self-realised souls as a wave of the sea realsiing that it is non-different from the Sea. Kabir said on this phenomenon : "Everyone has seen a drop of water merging into the sea. I have seen the sea merging into the drop of water."

Are you able to understand the phenomenon of ChidAbhAsa ?


Namasthe,

Trying to understand it.

So the entity "person" is the product created by Maya using the substratum SELF. that means it is a by-product(i.e SELF and Maya are not impacted, but caused to create a new entity) or just the combination of both SELF and maya?



See, if the dreams were nothing but revisiting our past impressions gathered in our waking time, then the phenomenon that happened in the waking time must be repeated in the same way but that doesn't happen in the dream. The characters in the dream cannot act in a manner the dreamer doesn't want or in a manner the dreamer is not aware of, if the story is written by the dreamer or everything is in dreamer's control. But we do know that nightmares do happen which no dreamer wants. For playing a role in the dream drama and for acting differently from other characters in the dream, every character must have its own "i" i.e. its own apparently separate mind.

Do you agree with the above ? Please try to recollect any of your bad dreams and try to understand how a particular character in the dream acted in a manner you never wanted. I would like to hear your views on this.
Let me explain my understanding of dreams:

A person is said to be in waking state when his awareness is in contact with the world of persons and objects and events where his brain(medium through which his consciousness shines forth) is fully operating given it has not damaged, and one of the features of this brain-mind is "iccha" or willpower , so the person in waking state enjoys iccha completely, but still he can not control the whole world of objects and events, but atleast his awareness is more clear on what to do and what not to.

When the same person goes into dream, his gross senses not working outward , his brain is operating with less activity which causes the will-power of person gets subdued (you can read the recent neuro-science findings of brain activities during dream for more details), but still his subtle senses and subtle mind work at dream world , dream world is nothing but impressions stored in consciousness of person(impressions may not be only from current life of dreamer), these impressions can be perceived by subtle senses,mind still . Since dreamer has little iccha , he is more of experiencing the dream world.

Now problem comes when the dreamer wakes up and tries to compare his dream world (experiences) with waking world (experiences), both seem to be quite different..also since he is doing the comparison from waking state, he tries to negate the dream world as unreal.
But in reality the dream world or objects are nothing but subtle impressions which can be experienced by him only during sleep because his conscious state in sleep is at the right level to perceive those impressions.

Now about the characters that act in dream are same like characters acting in real world, how? let me explain.. in waking state a person's senses contact with outer world of persons and events..so those are known to him and act accordingly. Other persons' mind/thoughts/subjectiveness can not be felt by that person, but still he believes others have separate minds, because he perceives,communicates and co-relates. Same way, in dream other characters which are nothing but impressions from past karma act according to the karma, it doesn't need them to have "i"ness which is subjective and can not be proved by the dreamer anyway, all he can do is perceive the events,activities done by those characters and experience them.

Having said that, the conscious-being travels through all these different levels of conscious states(dream,waking) is same one, otherwise he wouldn't have compared different states.

And my whole inquiry is about that person, his relation with the "SELF" (as defined by OP ) and world.

[sanathan]

As I have said, there is duality or say multiplicity. The efforts are made to rise beyond duality by being witness and later on nothing is left to see. This effort may be reading shastra-s, contemplation, sravaNa and meditation.

It is only after being free we can say (backed by experience) that jiva was never bound.
But why say it before one is liberated?

Take it as a destination. It is a road map. It does not mean that you are currently experiencing the statement 'I am Brahman'



Aum
Namasthe,

I have already clarified my approach as "sruthi-yukthi-anubhava" , first I hear , then put it to the test of logic , then practice it.

Now , you are describing the statement "jeeva is never bound" is like a roadmap which one has to meditate upon, but my very question was on its validity..

If I have roadmap to Delhi , that means that road map was created by someone who visited Delhi already , but I can not use some roadmap of Mumbai misinterpreting it Delhi right.

So first comes logic to validate the roadmap itself.

Now my direct perceptions and current experiences are giving me knowledge that I am bound to karma or within maya, then why should I believe which is against my perceptions.

Rather we can simply say that , though our current state is bound to maya, we can go beyond this state by realizing the true nature of SELF..which is more logical to me.

Leave it, it is just matter of convenience, but the thing I am looking for is actual TRUTH.

If jeeva is bound to maya, then that is a fact and no need to change the fact for the purpose of meditation or by assuming some later state of it. We can simply talk the fact as fact (atleast for that time being) and still work on to change that.

I believe whole sasthras came to lift us from this maya, that itself proves our current state is karma-bound and we can go beyond this .

As OP said , if jeeva or me is never in bondage..then there is no need to follow sasthras at all.


I have more serious questions on nature of this SELF and its relationship with Maya, if you have some free time later, probably we can discuss .

[hinduism♥krishna]

Namasthe!

Bhagavatm: 1.5.5:

vyāsa uvāca
asty eva me sarvam idaṁ tvayoktaṁ
 tathāpi nātmā parituṣyate me
tan-mūlam avyaktam agādha-bodhaṁ
 pṛcchāmahe tvātma-bhavātma-bhūtam

1.5.8



śrī-nārada uvāca
bhavatānudita-prāyaṁ
 yaśo bhagavato �malam
yenaivāsau na tuṣyeta
 manye tad darśanaṁ khilam

If you know Sanskrit well, interpret yourself, or ask anyone who is well educated in Sanskrit .

If these verses are really that posit the view of jopmala, then the interpretation done by him is the perfect example of how one distorts sacred scripture . :cool1: See the original translations below :


Bhagavatm: 1.5.5 :

vyāsa uvāca : Vyasa said
asty : is , eva:just so , me :to me , sarvam:all , idaṁ:this ,tvayoktaṁ:said,
 tathāpi:but , nātmā:my self , parituṣyate:satisfied , me:my,
tan-mūlam : its reason , avyaktam :don't know , agādha-bodhaṁ : deep understanding ,
pṛcchāmahe: I question tvātma: and you bhavātma-bhūtam : atma of living beings


Meaning : Whatever you said about my subject , it is right ; but my self is not satisfied . I don't know what is the reason . Your knowledge is deep . You are himself soul of all living beings .So I ask the question of this .


bhagavatam 1.5.8



śrī-nārada uvāca : narada says
bhavat : you , ānudita : unsaid , prāyaṁ : chief
 yaśo : glory , bhagavato : lord's , amalam : pure ,
yena : wherefore , iva asau : like this tuṣyeta pleased
 manye : I think ,tad : that , darśanaṁ : scripture , khilam : insufficient

Meaning : hey bhagavan , you didn't mention lord's pure and chief glories . I think , from which bhagavan doesn't get satisfied , that scripture is defective .

In this way , narada instructs vyasa that he should add glories of bhagavan along with untimate advaita (vedanta ) knowledge .

[Amrut]

Namasthe,

I have already clarified my approach as "sruthi-yukthi-anubhava" , first I hear , then put it to the test of logic , then practice it.

Now , you are describing the statement "jeeva is never bound" is like a roadmap which one has to meditate upon, but my very question was on its validity..

If I have roadmap to Delhi , that means that road map was created by someone who visited Delhi already , but I can not use some roadmap of Mumbai misinterpreting it Delhi right.

So first comes logic to validate the roadmap itself.

Now my direct perceptions and current experiences are giving me knowledge that I am bound to karma or within maya, then why should I believe which is against my perceptions.

If jeeva is bound to maya, then that is a fact and no need to change the fact for the purpose of meditation or by assuming some later state of it. We can simply talk the fact as fact (atleast for that time being) and still work on to change that.

I believe whole sasthras came to lift us from this maya, that itself proves our current state is karma-bound and we can go beyond this .

As OP said , if jeeva or me is never in bondage..then there is no need to follow sasthras at all.

I have more serious questions on nature of this SELF and its relationship with Maya, if you have some free time later, probably we can discuss .

Namaste,

Wrong Perception

The thing is, when you are dreaming, you do not realize that you are dreaming. When you have malaria or some other dis-ease, you see the whole world yellow. The problem is with your vision and not with the world.

Definition of Reality

The definition of truth (satya) is - 'to be present at all times'. Truth is eternal.

Everything dual is experienced in ignorance

The path (roadmap)

The path (roadmap) exist, till we are rooted in ignorance. Once we enter into knowledge of Self, there is no path. In other words, path ends in Jnana, as the seeking ends.

As per definition of reality (satya, eternal), since the path 'ends' it is not real. But once it was real, hence it is neither unreal (asatya) ... :) mithyA got it.

You realize that only for explanatory purpose, my Guru was talking about going inside and merging in Brahman, rising above mAyA, etc. Now, nothing matters. What was true earlier is not true anymore.

So we see this world, feel, it, experience it and it is impossible for us to take it as illusion. That is why, in VA, or Dvaita, the world and you exist eternally, while in Advaita, it does not.

Jeevahood

Even if we take that Jeeva was bound and later on it gets free, that means the bondage is not permanent. Hence, as per definition of 'Reality', bondage is not real (eternal), as it ends. But at one time, it appeared to be real or in plain words, it was real. Hence bondage is neither unreal (asatya). The only option left is to fit somewhere in-between. Advaita calls it as mithyA.

Also, advaita calls practical experience as reality, but it is relative reality and calls it vyavahArika satya. Relative means which is explained with relation to anything. Hence relative reality is compared with waking state.

Ignorance is root cause

Anything that ends, cannot be eternal. But we take it as real when we are under ignorance. Hence ignorance is the root cause.

Ignorance + Ego (feeling or sense of individuality) + action (in this case, path, roadmap). For those who have realized, there is no path.

You chant lord's name till he does not accompany you permanently. When he is here, always then why would you chant his name. You call your kid when he is far away from you, playing with other kids. When he is in your lap, you do not shout his name, nor do you call him. Right.


Rather we can simply say that , though our current state is bound to maya, we can go beyond this state by realizing the true nature of SELF..which is more logical to me.

Leave it, it is just matter of convenience, but the thing I am looking for is actual TRUTH.It is ok, if you take this path and jivahood as real, continue your journey. But all agree that vairAgya has to be developed.

After vairAgya is developed, we will see what to do next :)

Jiva is bound by mAyA is true. But when it realizes that it is Shiva (and not Jiva), then it is no more bound.

Brahman

Definition of Brahman is that which Cannot be described, reached by mind, senses. It is the only truth, it is infinite, undivided, immutable, changeless, supreme reality, beyond 3 guNa-s.

Hence we have to take care (w.r.t advaita) that this definition is not violated.

So anything that can be described or seen or experienced (separately) is not Brahman.

Again, Brahman cannot be described, hence the attributes given to Brahman cannot be real too.

We can think of Ishvara, who has attributes. But Ishvara is Brahman itself and can stay without mAyA as pure consciousness. In this non-dual state, we do not experience any attributes or guNa-s, hence no experience o Ishavara, as a person. This is something that may be difficult to digest.

If you have observed, Kartikeyan (skanda) is shown with or without his spiritual consort, but never without veil. Spiritual consort is mAyA, his shakti, while Veil represents Jnana :)

You may read post #40 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=111533&postcount=40) (on page 4 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=12251&page=4))and #41 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showpost.php?p=111584&postcount=41) (page 5 (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=12251&page=5)) Post #41 would give you better explanation.

Aum

[sanathan]

Edited

[sanathan]

Very well explained, most of the Advaita terms are understood now.

[jopmala]

Namaste , jopamala.

Please don't put here your distorted translations and myths propagated by iskcon . You didn't mention any verse and chapter number. Besides , after reading this post .
Namaste
you claim yourself to be vaishnab who believe that jiva is Brahman. This is the greatest sin on the part of vaishnab. being advaitian you do not believe in nama rupa and guna (name,form and guna)of brahman ,how can you claim yourself to be vaishnab is totally misleading however, I am sure you have heard of great vaishnab literature name sri chaitanya charitamrita written on sri chaitanya mahaprabhu’s vaishnabism. In chaitanya charitamrita Madhya lila chapter 18 :

jai murha ( foolish person) kahe jiva iswara hoye sama
saito pasandi (atheist or impious) hoya dande tare yama

Trans : the foolish person who says that jive and iswara ( Brahman) is the same he is an atheist /hypocrite and yamadev punishes him.

Since you yourself is Brahman , why should you feel to study bhagavat puran. I advise you to study Bhagavat puran with the mind with which vyashdeva has written it because he was also a advaitin but he was unhappy. after writing Bhagavat puran he realized the rasa tatta of sri Krishna lila and enjoyed happiness. Bhagavat puran is not open to those who are interested in jnan of nirgun nirakan Brahman and arguments thereof but to them who wants to hear bhagavan sri krishna’s lila rasa only for which great great advaitin masters has converted themselves into bhakti margi from time to time. you can get the names if you try. after all you are not greater advaitian than sri sukhdeva goswami. I do not think it necessary to give you verse chapter number of bhagavat puran since you know everything !By the way I am not follower of ISKON family rather I am against ISKON way of vaishnabism

[hinduism♥krishna]

Namaste
you claim yourself to be vaishnab who believe that jiva is Brahman. This is the greatest sin on the part of vaishnab. being advaitian you do not believe in nama rupa and guna (name,form and guna)of brahman ,how can you claim yourself to be vaishnab is totally misleading however, I am sure you have heard of great vaishnab literature name sri chaitanya charitamrita written on sri chaitanya mahaprabhu’s vaishnabism. In chaitanya charitamrita Madhya lila chapter 18 :

jai murha ( foolish person) kahe jiva iswara hoye sama
saito pasandi (atheist or impious) hoya dande tare yama

Trans : the foolish person who says that jive and iswara ( Brahman) is the same he is an atheist /hypocrite and yamadev punishes him.

Since you yourself is Brahman , why should you feel to study bhagavat puran. I advise you to study Bhagavat puran with the mind with which vyashdeva has written it because he was also a advaitin but he was unhappy. after writing Bhagavat puran he realized the rasa tatta of sri Krishna lila and enjoyed happiness. Bhagavat puran is not open to those who are interested in jnan of nirgun nirakan Brahman and arguments thereof but to them who wants to hear bhagavan sri krishna’s lila rasa only for which great great advaitin masters has converted themselves into bhakti margi from time to time. you can get the names if you try. after all you are not greater advaitian than sri sukhdeva goswami. I do not think it necessary to give you verse chapter number of bhagavat puran since you know everything !By the way I am not follower of ISKON family rather I am against ISKON way of vaishnabism


Namaste , jopmala .

In the last post , you critisized impersonalists by stating myths and you presented it as if they are stated in bhagavat purana . Your posts are full of myths propagated by some vaishnawas .You are a vaishnawa and I am also vaishnawa. But Do you know what is the difference between you and me ? I believe and follow bhagavat purana and upanishadas , and you believe and follow "chaitanya charitamrita " . Many vedic scholors don't consider it as a authentic scripture . The philosophy of "chaitanya charitamrita" is against veda and bhagavat purana . So do you wanna say who follows "charitamrita" is a vaishnawa and others who don't follow are fool persons . :rolleyes: . So do you wanna say those who don't follow that scripture are sinful persons ?

I didn't say that I don't believe in nama , rupa and lila . It will be a foolish thing to say that lila and tatwa-dnyana are two contradicting things . Persons like you misinterpretes like this . You don't don't even the difference between jiva and atma . What should I say more ?

Shri krishna says jiva is not the real self , yet you believe the opposite . Shri krishna says jiva merges in me , yet you believe the opposite , shri krishna says I am the jiva , yet you believe the opposite , shri krishna says jiva is imagined as a part , yet you don't accept it , sutaji said that the aim of bhagavt purana is non dual unity of atma and bramhan , yet you think the opposite , shukadeva instructs to parikshita " you are bramhan ,you are that absolute abode " , yet you don't believe this and so on ....

Look carefully , who is a real vaishnawa ? Those who follow 'bhagavat purana ' or those who follow 'charitamrita' ?

I think one should not call himself a vaishnawa if he doesn't accept the philosophy of bhagavat purana .

So according to bhagavat purana ,If a vaishnawa is opposing the bhagavat purana and calling himself different from bramhan, it is sin and yamadeva will punish him :D . Right ?


Not only vyasadeva , but also krishna , sutaji , shukadeva all were advaitians . He instructed us to worship hari with advaita knowledge . Remember what shukadeva instructs to parikshita in the end " you are bramhan , you are parabramhan ,you are that absolute abode " So what do you think yamadeva will punish shukadeva ?

I have already said that the purpose of bhagavt purana is for the kaliyuga . Vyasa deva thought that only knowledge wouldn't be sufficient for kaliyuga .So vyasa was depressed. When narada came , he instructed vyasa to write a scripture which should have both knowledge and lilas of krishna . Narada knew that people would not understand the ultimate philosophy of veda in the kaliyuga . So he says to vyasa that he should write the glories of krishna which will be cause of purifying the minds of ignorant people of kaliyuga . In this way they would know the ultimate knowledge and will become free from the bondage of cycle of birth and death . The intention of lila is to destroy the sins which are barrier for attainment of bramhan . The lilas of shri krishna are very sweet . It gives pleasure to us and by reading these , devotee easily crosses the unbeatable maya .

Know that bhakti marga is a part of advaita . Vaishnawa is not a philosophy .Vaishnawa means the one who worships the vishnu . No doubt , bhagavat purana teaches to worship hari with the sword of advaita knowledge . Do you know how krishna critisizes those who follow path of duality ? " While the Jeeva is not dependent and free, there is fear of God, and those who follow the path of duality become greatly disturbed, given to sorrow. "

I request you to read to this thread to know more :

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=12337


hari nama - just chant and realise hari in your own self .

[devotee]

Namasthe Sanathan,


So the entity "person" is the product created by Maya using the substratum SELF. that means it is a by-product(i.e SELF and Maya are not impacted, but caused to create a new entity) or just the combination of both SELF and maya?

All modifications of forms and names etc. are there in MAyA. However, MAyA on its own is inert. So, the person is created by MAyA with substratum as Self. MAyA powered by the presence of Self as substratum creates Ishvara, this gross world and also subtle world (and all beings therein) which are listed as three different MAyic states of Self in Upanishads. Here, Ishvara is different from the other two as it is not deluded and also that it is non-dual and that it is the Controller and Lord of the two states. In essence, all the above three are nothing but Nirguna Brahman in different states.


Now about the characters that act in dream are same like characters acting in real world, how? let me explain.. in waking state a person's senses contact with outer world of persons and events..so those are known to him and act accordingly. Other persons' mind/thoughts/subjectiveness can not be felt by that person, but still he believes others have separate minds, because he perceives, communicates and co-relates.

Correct. The last sentence of your above quote is very important. Can we agree here that the characters in dream including the dreamer’s own character acting the dream apparently show that they have their own minds and separate ‘I’s ? Why and how ?

a) The mind-wave which makes one believe that it is different from ‘others’ is ‘I’. Let’s remember that ‘I’ is not the being itself but is just a mindwave, the leading mindwave in absence of which it cannot differentiate itself from others. The mind-waves ‘I” and “other(s)” arise simultaneously. Again, it is one of the characteristics of a being to have “I” mindwave but the being can also exist without an ‘I’ as in deep sleep or in coma. Again, this “I” mindwave can vary within the same being depending upon the mental state (read state of brain) of the character, e.g. mentally deranged persons which exhibit a totally different “I” in their fit of madness as compared to when they are mentally fit.

But as I have stated above and you also have written above, as the dream characters are able to distinguish themselves from “others” in the dream, they must have their own “I”s.

b) Again, they must apparently possess their own minds. I may dream about my friend or a teacher who is trying to explain me (i.e. the own character of the dreamer acting in the dream) some plan, some phenomenon or anything in the dream cannot do so without having its apparent mind. In fact, for acting its part in the dream separately from “me” in the dream, I (my own actor-dream character) in the dream and the other character in the dream must have different minds as two different characters can’t work with the same mind and act differently or have opposite thoughts. It is not possible.

But we all know that there is only one mind and there is only one being that is the dreamer. Even the character in the dream acting on behalf of the dreamer in the dream is not real. If that was real then who was dreaming ? Needless to say that all the characters in the dream are not real from the point of waking state of the dreamer. However, if we keep the dream in mind then all the characters are real within the dream-state if we accept the dream as real. So, the characters and the entire world created in the dream is neither real nor unreal and that is MAyic creation.

The substratum of all characters in the dream is the same individualised consciousness (mind) i.e. of the dreamer. Without the mind of the dreamer, no character in the dream has any existence. All the dream-characters arise from and dissolve back into the mind. When do the characters dissolve back into the mind ? Upon awakening. That is the analogy which can help us understand how a being is generated from Ishvara and keeps going in cycles of this MAYic creation until awakening when it merges back to its Source.

Its own actor-character of the dreamer in the dream is very important for us to understand the delusion and awakening of beings. I may dream that I am a poor man and unable to feed my family even when in reality I may be a millionaire in waking state. I keep suffering in the dream due to imagined poverty in the dream and when I awaken I find that all sufferings/my bondage to the character of a poor person was unreal.

Now, can we summarise here ?

1. The Jeeva actually is mithya because it is none but Brahman as the dream-actor is nothing but the dreamer himself. So, Jeeva was never in bondage but due to delusion created by MAyA, it imagined itself in bondage. However, until awakening occurs, Jeeva remains in bondage as the dreamer’s dream-character remains poor.

2. It is a unique characteristic of consciousness that even though it is One, it can apparently act as “many” as the dreamer’s consciousness is capable of creating whole dream-world and plethora of characters within the dream. It is capable of creating such mind-waves which can act as individual beings. That is how a dreamer and its own dream-character exist simultaneously.

3. Advaita says that Jeeva has to constantly believe and have faith that it is non-different from Brahman so that he can awaken faster. Once a person is able to cast off all MAyic superimpositions on himself, he becomes free and is awakened. Like the dream-character merging into dreamer’s mind, the Jeeva merges back into Brahman on awakening. However, it may appear interesting to you that until he is awakened, an Advaitin practitioner prays to God for helping him experience his Oneness with God. So, it is not that an Advaitin discards God ... he loves God more than anything in this in the world as God alone is the reality and being the Controller of MAyic states, He can make the practitioner free from the delusion of MAyA.

"I am the bubble You are the sea. I am the bubble, make me the see. I am the bubble, make me the sea".

OM

[Amrut]

Very well explained, most of the Advaita terms are understood now.

My pleasure. It is good to clear doubts, so that we can stay at peace and practice our path.

Hari OM

[jopmala]

It is good to clear doubts, so that we can stay at peace and practice our path.

Hari OM
Namaste Indiaspirituality Amrutji

with due regards I would like to put two questions before you to clear my doubts. you are learned man expert on advaita philosophy which is regarded as most scientific . I will be glad to get answers from advaitic point of view.

1. what is Maya. I mean, Is Maya a power or who is the creator of Maya

2. If jiva is Brahman , can Maya be considered to be brahman, if not why.

[Amrut]

Namaste Indiaspirituality Amrutji

with due regards I would like to put two questions before you to clear my doubts. you are learned man expert on advaita philosophy which is regarded as most scientific . I will be glad to get answers from advaitic point of view.



Namaste Jopmala ji,

I am not an expert, just an average man, trying to live a spiritual life. I am not an authority on spirituality. I would also not say that I represent Advaita. All I can say is that I present view understanding of Advaita.

Regarding Advaita being scientific, it is all subjective. Some like sweet taste, some spicy. the choice depends upon mental make-up. There is no reason why you like sweet taste and why you do not like spicy or sour taste. All you can say, 'I like' and 'I do not like'.

I have given answers to your question 1, in other post, but I understand that not all follow my loooonnng posts as I am not a celebrity ;)

I will attempt to answer in simple way, without quoting shastra-s.


1. what is Maya. I mean, Is Maya a power or who is the creator of Maya

mAyA is beginning less, hence it cannot be said that it was created by Brahman or Ishvara. mAyA is the power of Ishvara or saguNa Brahman.

Nir-guNa Brahman as the name suggests cannot create anything. In short it cannot act anything. the name name says so. As to create anything, one has to take AdhAra of mAyA.

When Brahman takes AdhAra of mAyA to do any activity, the Brahman is called as sa-guNa Brahman.

mAyA is the creative power or simply power of Brahman. Brahman can independently exist without mAyA as pure consciousness (NirguNa Brahman), but mAyA cannot stay without Brahman i.e. mAyA is dependent upon Ishvara.

mAyA is projector and Brahman is screen. Screen is not affected by any kind of projection or say whatever is projected.


2. If jiva is Brahman , can Maya be considered to be brahman, if not why.

mAyA is not Brahman, it is power of Brahman.

Why it cannot be Brahman?

The answer is because Brahman is beyond guNa-s, while mAyA is called as triguNAtmikA i.e. made up of 3 guNa-s - Sattva, Rajas, Tamas. Hence the creation of mAyA also contains 3 guNa-s. Besides, in Jnana, mAyA ends. One does not experience mAyA, this world, or anything except Brahman, that too not separately.

Aum

P.S. I hope everything happens in Good faith and in friendly spirit :)

[sanathan]

a) The mind-wave which makes one believe that it is different from �others� is �I�. Let�s remember that �I� is not the being itself but is just a mindwave, the leading mindwave in absence of which it cannot differentiate itself from others. The mind-waves �I� and �other(s)� arise simultaneously. Again, it is one of the characteristics of a being to have �I� mindwave but the being can also exist without an �I� as in deep sleep or in coma. Again, this �I� mindwave can vary within the same being depending upon the mental state (read state of brain) of the character, e.g. mentally deranged persons which exhibit a totally different �I� in their fit of madness as compared to when they are mentally fit.

But as I have stated above and you also have written above, as the dream characters are able to distinguish themselves from �others� in the dream, they must have their own �I�s.

b) Again, they must apparently possess their own minds. I may dream about my friend or a teacher who is trying to explain me (i.e. the own character of the dreamer acting in the dream) some plan, some phenomenon or anything in the dream cannot do so without having its apparent mind. In fact, for acting its part in the dream separately from �me� in the dream, I (my own actor-dream character) in the dream and the other character in the dream must have different minds as two different characters can�t work with the same mind and act differently or have opposite thoughts. It is not possible.

But we all know that there is only one mind and there is only one being that is the dreamer. Even the character in the dream acting on behalf of the dreamer in the dream is not real. If that was real then who was dreaming ? Needless to say that all the characters in the dream are not real from the point of waking state of the dreamer. However, if we keep the dream in mind then all the characters are real within the dream-state if we accept the dream as real. So, the characters and the entire world created in the dream is neither real nor unreal and that is MAyic creation.


OM

Dhanyavaad!

I am very clear now with the concepts of Advaita.

Let me contemplate on it for some time and will come-up with my queries if any.

[hinduism♥krishna]

mAyA is not Brahman

I am totally disagreed with this . Whatever there is , it is bramhan only . There is nothing which cab be seperated from bramhan . So bramhan and maya are not different . Know that seeing maya different from maya is also a maya (illusion) or seeing this world(maya) different from bramhan is also a maya . The fact is like that there is no creation even if bramhan creates the world/maya or there is no maya even if there is a maya . It is not the fact that bramhan creates the world by having changes with help of maya .What seem to be created is bramhan only .The world is bramhan.The maya is bramhan .

Shastras support that maya is not different from bramhan . Narada ji supports this fact in 11th canto of bhagavat purana ,which is the conversation between narada and vasudeva.

“ahametatprasankhyanam….. bhavo vidyate kwachit “ (BP 11.16.38)

Meaning:
The Lord krishna said - I am the knowledge of these principles and the counting of them. I am the Jeeva, I am the God, I am the wielder of Gunas and I am the Gunas themselves; and without me, who am the Atman of all, there is nothing separate existing.