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hinduism♥krishna
28 November 2013, 09:06 AM
Namaste ,
I salute to the lord ganesha and godess saraswati . I salute to the divine rukmini and Krishna !


The highlighted points of this thread : ( This is the demo. The verses from 11 canto bhagavatam)


* Secret of veda*
* Aim of bhagavat purana or all shastras *
* atman is bramhan. *
* jiva merges in Krishna/atman *
* Method of worship of Krishna *
* Duality is an illusion ( path of duality is the support of sorrow) *
* Who is bhagavata *
* Relation between multiplicity of atma and inequality between gunas*
* Jivahood is a false thing *
* Atma has no bondage or liberation *
* Who is ishwara *
* There is nothing other than atman *
* Some verses from uttara gita *




Aim of all vedanta

Sutaji said to the shaunak :

“ sarvavedanta saram yadbramhatmaikatva lakshanam
Vastwadwitiyam tannishtham kaivalaikaprayojanam “ ( 12.13.12)

[ You have already know that the essence of all upanishadas is the the non-dual unity of atma and bramhan . Only this is the given subject of bhagavat purana . The aim of this ( bhagavat purana ) is “kaivalya moksha “ ( unity of atma-bramhan) only . ]




SECRET OF VEDA

Vedas are having three divisions. Finally, aiming at unity of Brahman and Atman. The sages are in the habit of writing indirectly and I also like indirect suggestive statements. ( BP 11.21.35)

Vedas has three divisions dealing each with karma, Worship and Knowledge (Karma, Upasana, Dnyan) by which, through purity of mind, the soul reaches Brahman.
Everything is nothing but Brahman. !
Where is the division and where is the awareness of Unity or one-ness? What is the bondage and what is the freedom? There is total eternal bliss! And this is what the Vedas mean!
If, however, this is clearly stated and taught to all, the core intention of Vedas to teach life of virtue to the people will be defeated and, therefore, Krishna has arranged to keep the unity of atma and bramhan hidden.
This is the essence of the secret of Vedas and the store of hidden knowledge.

Everyone is not eligible for thinking about unity of atma-bramhan knowledge. Great sages have considered this point and kept direct meaning hidden, giving expression only to the obvious meaning of encouragement to worldly activities and dualities. Krishna also considers it the proper approach in order to maintain the evolutory nature of social structure, because normally all people like to think self different from bramhan or because they don’t understand this.


“The Vedas enjoins me alone in the form of Yadnya, me alone in the form of various deities in Devata Kanda nay whatever is super-imposed on me first and then negated in Dnyana kandas is me alone taking this stand on me as the cause of all causes and the highest reality, the Vedas posit (states) diversity as a mere illusion and then denying it, ultimately becomes quiet. This much is the import of all the Vedas. (BG 11.21.43)

I tell you the division related to the knowledge.

The spirit which is reflected in the field of the Maya is called you. Because of ignorance it is called the soul, the Jeeva.
In our dream all the objects or persons which are seen, are projected by our single mind.
Similarly this state of the soul id bound to a limited place because of ignorance. This is Jeeva”.
Now there is that spirit which is the cause of the beginning of the world, all-seeing, allknowing,
It is eternally glorious beyond our concept.
Who is God who is the doer of all actions but in reality not doer at all and there is natural eternal freedom, not born of any other object, being self-existing?
This is Shiva whose natural power is never curbed by anything and anybody, who is always fully identical with the highest bliss (Paramananda) and just as Jeeva is called you or Twam(वम्). This is called THA (तत्)
When the ignorance of Jeeva is left out and the omniscience of Shiva is also negated what remains is to be held and embraced with our totality.
For example a husband who was young and beautiful, went to other countries and after some years returned. At that time he looked older more strong and more powerful. His wife recognizes him as her husband negating both his younger form and also his new strong youth, but follows her understanding of the man, the spirit in his body.
Similarly krishna and jiva are the two qualifications of one Brahma and these two are to be set aside and our mind should catch hold of the aloneness, as abstract existence which is Brahman.
One has to unite the Jeeva and Shiva and remain eternally steadfast in my real spirit. This is mainly the subject of Dnyana Kanda.





Atma is bramhan / jiva merges in Krishna



“kalo mayamaye jive jiva atmani mayyaje
Atma kevala atmastho vikalpapayalakshanah “ ( BP 11.24.27)

Meaning : The Time merges into Jeeva (Purusha), and the Jeeva merges into me, the Atman which has no birth. Atman is Atman itself, where there is not Vikalpa. (Duality).

Explaination :

When the Purusha is disturbed it becomes Time-Spirit and the creation, the existence and the dissolution of forms comes into being.
When these three are finished, the function of Time is also finished and naturally it gets merged into Jeeva.
Purusha who gives life to the lifeless and makes living beings from matter is called Jeeva.
By the power of Prakruti, the pure Brahman, or Purusha becomes Jeeva.
Prakruti is like a mirage; it appears but has no real existence.
If a man falls into the apparent water of mirage, he will not find actual water there, and he would not be drowned. Similarly, Prakruti is unreal and Jeeva also is unreal!
For example, if we look at the ocean, we feel that sky has fallen in it, but it will be foolish to think that the sky has fallen. Similarly, the form, the name, the quality, the Karma – are all illusions within Maya.
even if Prakruti is supposed to exist, the Jeeva-hood is false. I shall tell you the facts.
When we look into the mirror, we see ourselves as reflection, but we are aware that, we exist ourselves quite separate from the image.
similarly, though I appear to be within the created universe, i.e. Prakruti while the process of creation etc is going on, you should remember that Krishna is different from Prakruti.
The sky is seen as reflected in the water, but it does not get wet. Similarly, though atma works using Prakruti, he is not affected in any way.
When we consider on these lines, the facts, we come to the conclusion or realization that Prakruti or Maya does not exist at all, the two names viz Jeeva and Shiva are false, because what is known as Jeeva is really the Paramatman.
When the existence of Jeeva is negated, its counterpart Shiv is also finished, and what remains is Atman, one complete non-duality.
When the Jeeva remembers that it is not Jeeva, but Atman, at that moment, Jeeva becomes Absolute Reality, the Paramatman, which is having no birth, no destruction, no division, and is endless.
When in the Brahman, there is no awareness that itself is Brahman, where is the scope to say I or bramhan, and who will say it? at that stage, there is only the highest bliss!


“ avam samahit……..jyotishi sanyutam “ (BP 11.14.45)

Meaning: With his intellect thus established, he sees me in himself and himself actually merged in me (bramhan) like an individual light in the element of fire.

Explaination : When the I consciousness of the seeker becomes one with my pure nature and when he is identified with bramhan, the very urge ‘I am’, becomes merged into oneness, the non-duality.

Thus the awareness of separate I and you disappear and only the cosmic joy of Krishna remains everywhere.
Just as the brilliance of two flames become one when they are put together so the Jeeva and the energy become one in non-duality.
Jeeva is of the nature of knowledge, or “chit” in the state of non-duality.
With the association of body and organs the Jeeva is wrongly conceived as a separate entity but when understanding of non-duality arises the Jeeva merges into cosmic Atman.

Then there is only divine happiness and there is nobody to make this statement. Only joy of Atman remains as joy.
What is that state? It is like sugar eating sugar, or water bathing in water or ghee entering into ghee to enjoy the fragrance.


“ vishayan dhyayetchittam……mayyeva praliyate “ ( bP 11.14.27)

Meaning: When the mind thinks and broods about objects, it becomes attached to them and when the mind remembers me, it merges into me (atma) .

Explaination: When one thinks about the woman who is not present she is manifest before the eye of the mind, then it is natural that if one thinks about krishn who is constantly in one’s heart he will be equally manifest in one’s mind and there will be identity of both the devotee and krishna.

Then the thinker, the mind, the worries and the state of meditation-all these factors disappears and the man becomes embodied knowledge which is also called unity with bramhan.



Atma / jiva is Krishna/ bramhan .



“satvam chabhijayed ………jivam vihay mam “ ( BP 11.25.35)

Meaning: The Jeeva having been free from Gunas, and having dropped the idea that it is Jeeva, attains Me and thus Jeeva freed from its separateness and liberated from Gunas unites with Me. ( bramhan)

Explaination: Thus when the sense of separate existence of the soul is no more, the division between I am Body and I am Atman has no place. Then what remains? Only completeness, alone-ness which we call Brahman remains.

So, krishna’s devotees become Brahman, which is their original state.
.


“ jivo jivavinirmukto…..purno na bahirnantaratchharet “ ( BP 11.25.35)

Meaning: Such a person is complete Brahman as I am and he does not move either within himself or outside.

Explaination: Just as the inner side of sugar is not separate from its outer side, so Brahman is the same inside and out, and it is flawless and full of self-bliss.When the man becomes one with Brahman, there is no death for him and if he lives further according to destiny, he has no sense of I about his body. He does not look at outer objects. There is no place in his mind for any thought about object. One should be sincere in his worship of krishna, in order to be free from this ignorance and that is the reason why saints are loving the path of devotion with all their heart.
There is nothing higher than my devotion and if that devotion is one-pointed, then all the four liberations are his servants.


“avam krushnatmanatheshu…..nrushu sadhushu “ (BP 11.3.29)

Meaning:
He should also learn to love those persons who have realized Shri Krishna as their Atman, and as the Lord of their life, to serve human beings especially those among them who are Mahatmas and sages.


“ natma jajan…..vikalpitam sat “(BP 11.3.38)

Meaning: This Atman was not born, will never die. It neither grows nor decays; because it is the witness of the different states of those objects, which are created and destroyed. It is omnipresent and eternally abiding pure consciousness; yet it appears as many (like Prana) under the limited
power of the senses.

“ avamamagnairkya….hi sah “ ( BP 11.3.55)

Meaning: thus he who worships the God, as Atman, in the fire, in the Sun, in the water etc., and in the guest or visitor, or in his own heart, really becomes liberated without much delay.

“ avam gurupasanayyekabhaktya……..sampadya chatmanamatha tyajastram (11.12.24)

Meaning : Having subdued yourself and remaining alert all the time, cut at the root of your astral body with exclusive devotion to me, acquired by sitting at the feet of a Guru or by means of the sharp axe of wisdom and having thereby realized the self, cut off immediately the weapon with which you have removed the veil of ignorance in the form of your Jeevahood.

“avam vimrushya….makhilasanshayadhim “ (BP 11.13.23)

Meaning: You should think like this and arrive at the conclusion about the nature of the self that the three states of mind born out of three Gunas are falsely superimposed on Me as the Jeeva, by my delusive Power (Maya) and should cut at the root of egoism, the basis of all doubts, with the sword of Wisdom fortified by reasoning, the precepts of saints and the texts of Shruti
(Upanishads), and join in the Unity with Me seated in your heart.

“ guneshwavishate cheto…….madatmanah “ (BP 11.13.25)

Meaning:
O my sons! The mind enters into the Gunas and the Gunas get imprinted on the mind, but the objects and the mind, both constitute the adjuncts on the Jeeva, which is I, and if Jeeva contemplates on its essential nature which is Brahman, He can easily disconnect the sense objects and the mind from Him.

“ahametatprasankhyanam….. bhavo vidyate kwachit “ (BP 11.16.38)

Meaning:
The Lord said - I am the knowledge of these principles and the counting of them. I am the Jeeva, I am the God, I am the wielder of Gunas and I am the Gunas themselves; and without me, who am the Atman of all, there is nothing separate existing.

“ na hi tasya vikalpakhya……sampadyate maya “ ( BP 11.18.37)

Meaning:
There is no longer any perception of difference in him; whatever there was is uprooted by realization that God is the self of all. What does appear in him at times while begging for food and taking meals etc even now as a recurrence of what has already been set aside will constitute my force of destiny till his death where after he will bet United with Me.



What is jiva ?



“dehendriya pranamayo…..adhavati kalatantrah “ (BP 11.28.16)

Meaning:

The spirit hidden behind the body, the senses, the vital airs and the mind and identifying itself with them is called the Jeeva. The subtle body constituted of the Gunas and karmas is its material manifestation and is variously known as the Sootrama or the Mahat-Tattwa and controlled by God in the form of the Time-spirit) it revolves in Sansara. (World)

“satwam rajastam……tayoho param yat “(BP 11.3.37)

Meaning:

That which was one before creation became known as Pradhana (or Prakriti) of triple nature, consisting of Sattva, Rajas and Tamas. Then by its active power it became as the Sutratma and by its power of understanding it became known as Mahat Principle. Again as a condition investing the Jeeva or individual soul, it became known as Ahankara (the ego). The incomprehensible Brahman alone shines as deities presiding over the senses and their objects and the pain pleasure experience. The effect and the cause – are all Brahman only, because it is cause of both.



Method of worship of Krishna


“bhayam dvitiyabhinivishetah……gurudevatatma “ (BP 11.2.37)

Meaning:

One who has turned away from the Lord loses the memory of his real self, due to His Maya, and falls prey to the mistaken belief that he is the body. He is then seized by the fear caused by duality, which is the identification with “other” thing than the self. Therefore, the wise should worship God by only the devotion believing that he himself as Atman, his Guru and the God are one!



Who is bhagavata (devotee ) :



“sarvabhuteshu yah…….bhagavatotamah “ (BP 11.2.45)

Meaning:

Hari said – “ One who sees God in all the beings and all the beings in God as well as within himself is the best Bhagawata. (devotee of Bhagwan)”



Who is ishwara ?



“daridro yastvasantushtah……viparyah “ (BP 11.19.44)

Meaning:

He who is not satisfied is the Poor, he who has no control over his urges is called the unfortunate miser, He who is not attached to Gunas is “God” and the attachment to Gunas is the downward journey of the soul.



There is nothing other than atma (soul) :


“atmyaiva tadidam vishwam srujyate……nirmula bhatiratmani “ (BP 11.28-6,7)

Meaning:

The Lord, the Atman is Himself what is created as the Universe and the creator as the Atman only, one with it, by whom it is coming into existence. He protects it, it is protected by Him as Vishwatma, the All-pervading God, and He also sums up and withdraws it in Himself. Therefore there is nothing else but Atman, described to be Reality. All these things coming, existing or ending – the three states only falsely appear on the true base of Atman.



Path of duality is the support of sorrow / differences are illusions .


“yavadasyasvatantratvam tavadishwarato……shucharpitaha “ (BP 11.10.33)

Meaning:

While the Jeeva is not dependent and free, there is fear of God, and those who follow the path of duality become greatly disturbed, given to sorrow.



Differences or dualities are not real in any case. ( about bramhan and atma)


“kim bhadram kimabhadram…..manasa dhyatameva cha “ (BP 11.28.4)

Meaning:

What is good and what is bad in that duality which itself is not Real? What is spoken or thought or imagined by the mind is equally false.



Muliplicity of jiva and inequality of gunas –leads to sorrow



“yavatsyat gunavaishamyam…….tadaiva hi “ (BP 11.10.32)

Meaning:

As long as there is dependency ,there is fear of god.Those who get entangled in ‘I’ ,those who considers multiplicity and dependency of soul and those who don’t follow detachment , they get only sorrow .



ATMA has no bondage nor liberation

[This is discussed in very details in my #25 post from "You are God -part 1 ]





[ Uttara gita verses in next post ]


HARI KRISHNA NARAYANA HARI HARI

hinduism♥krishna
28 November 2013, 09:23 AM
Uttara gita


A SECOND DISCOURSE OF SHRI KRISHNA TO ARJUNA

chapter 1


ARJUNA ASKED:

Tell me, O Kesava, how Yogis should meditate upon the colourless and formless Brahman, when the mind is unable to think upon that which it has never seen, and that which can be seen is material, and consequently subject to destruction (change)? (34)




SRI BHAGAVAN SAID:

That which is full above, full below, full in the middle, and full all round, is the All-full Atman and he that contemplates the Atman thus, is said to be in the state of Samadhi. (35)






He who, after purifying his mind, contemplates the pure Paramatman, and looks unto his own Self as he one vast undivided whole of the manifested universe, becomes happy by knowing the Brahman. (37)



ARJUNA ASKED:


O Krishna, the Jiva, in the state of Samadhi, leaves all the movable and immovable objects of the world, but what is it that leaves the Jiva so as to remove the nama of Jivaship? (44)


SRI BHAGAVAN SAID:


The Prana Vayu always passes between the mouth and the nostrils; the Akasa drinks (absorbs) the Prana (i.e., when the Jiva leaves the body, after acquiring the knowledge of the Tattvas); thus when the Prana is once absorbed the Jiva does not figure again as Jiva in the arena of this world. (45)






As long as the Tattvas are not known to a person, so long it is necessary for him to practise concentration of mind by shutting out external senses, but once the thoroughly attains the knowledge of the Tattvas he identifies himself with the Universal Soul (BRAMHAN). (52)




CHAPTER-II
ARJUNA ASKED:


Tell me, Okesava, what is the evidence when one, knowing the Brahman as the all-pervading and all-knowing Paramesvara, believes himself to be one with I ? (1)



SRI BHAGAVAN SAID:


As water in water, milk in milk and (clarified) butter in butter, so the Jivatman and Paramatman become one in union without any distinction and difference. (2)






He who with undivided attention endeavours to unite the Jivatman with the Paramatman according to the manner prescribed by the Sastras (i.e., Rsis) to him the all-pervading and universal Light shows itself in due time. (3)




ARJUNA ASKED:


When, by acquiring knowledge, the knower becomes the object of knowledge itself, then he frees himself from all bondage by the virtue of his knowledge, and what need is there for practice of Yoga or meditation? (4)





SRI BHAGAVAN SAID:




He, in whom the light of knowledge always shines forth, has his Buddhi constantly fixed on the Brahman, and with the fire of supreme knowledge he is able to burn down the bonds of Karma . (5)

Such a knower of the Tattvas, by the realization of the Paramatman that is pure as the spotless Akasa and without a second, lives in it (i.e., Paramatman) without any Upadhi (i.e., being free from all attributes), as water enters into water. (6)



Wherever a Jnanin may die, and in whatever manner his death may happen, he becomes one with bramhan when he leases his body, even as the Akasa in the pot becomes one with its parent Akasa when the pot is broken, matters not where nor how it breaks. (8)


The Yogins who contemplate me with one mind as “I am he” are saved from the sins collected during a hundred millions of Kalpas. (34)


As the Akasa of the pot is absorbed in the Mahakasa when the pot is broken, so also the ignorance-bound Jivatman is absorbed in the Paramatman when ignorance is destroyed. (35)

He who has been able to acquire the knowledge of the Tattvas that the Jivatman is absorbed in the Paramatman, even as the Akasa of the Pot is absorbed in the Mahakasa, becomes undoubtedly free from the chain of ignorance, and goes into the sphere of the Light of Supreme Knowledge and Wisdom. (36)



Those that constantly chant the four Vedas and read other religious works and yet fail to realize “I am that Brahman”, they are like the spoons that are used for every cooking operation, but yet remain without a single taste of the foods they prepare. (37)



As the ass bears the burden of sandal (wood), whereby he feels only the weight of the load and not the virtue of the sandal, even so is the case of the (nominal) readers of the many Sastras, because they do not understand the real meaning of them, but carry them about like the beast of burden. (37)




At the time when the body oscillates backward and forward, the Brahmana who hesitates to believe that he is Brahman fails to understand the great subtle Atman, even if he be conversant with the four Vedas. (39)



Although the cows may be of different colours,but the colour of their milk is one and the same; even so in the case of the Jiva, the bodies may look different, but the Atman is one and the same in all. ( 40 )




That hundred millions of Jiva and thousands of Nada-Bindus are constantly destroyed and absorbed in that All-Purity , therefore the firm conviction that “I am Brahman” is known to be the only cause of Moksa for Great Souls (Mahatma). ( 43-44 )




When the Mind becomes free from all desires and passions, then only the idea of duality ceases. When there arises that state of Advaita feeling (al in One and One in all), there dwell the supreme Feet of the Brahman. (46)




As an hungry person imply wastes his energy in vain when he strikes the air with blows for food, so also a reader of the Vedas and others Sastras simply wastes his time and energy, if, not withstanding his study, he fails to realize that “I am Brahman”. (47)




CHAPTER-III




The Puranas, the Bharata, the Vedas, and various other Sastras, wife, children, and family are simply so many obstacles on the path of Yoga-practice. (2)



[This is not intended either for beginners or for ordinary people; it is intended for those only who have risen very high, i.e., above the world of matter.]




Considering life to be very impermanent, try to know only the indestructible Sat, give up the unnecessary reading of books, and worship Truth. (4)


Out of all the beautiful objects that exist in this world, most are intended either to please the tongue or give pleasures to sex: if you can relinquish the pleasures of both these,then where is the necessity of this world for you. (5)



The sacred rivers after all are but waters and the idols worshipped are nothing but either stones,metals, or earth. Yogis go neither to the former nor worship the latter, because within themselves exist all sacred places and the synthesis of all idols. (6)

Agni or Fire is the god of the twice-born who are given to sacrifice; the Munis call the Atman within them their god, the less intelligent portion worship the idols, but the Yogis see Brahman equally everywhere – both in the fire, within themselves, in idols, and all around. (7)



Wherever the Mind (of a Tattvajnanin) goes, it sees the Paramatman there because all and everything is full with the One Brahman. (9)

As the serene bright sky is observable with all its panorama of forms, names, and colours, so he who is able to realize the idea that “I am Brahman” – in spite of all forms, names, and colours – alone can see the eternal Paramatman actually. (10)



The Yogi, while meditating, should contemplate that “I am the whole universe”; in this manner he shall see that Paramatman – the Abode of Supreme Bliss – with the eyes of his knowledge. As long as he shall think of the Akasa and identify himself with it, so long shall he consider the All-pervading Paramatman like Akasa itself, for the Great Subtle Production from the Portal of Moksa, the All-full Abode of Nirvana, the Eternal Paramatman dwells in the heart of all Jiva, in the form of the Ray of Knowledge – the Spiritual Soul – in man; this Paramatman should be known as the Brahmatman of the Paramatman-knowing Yogis. (11)




He who has been able to identify himself with the whole universe – as the One Brahman – should carefully avoid the desire of eating every man’s food and selling all kinds of things. (12)


[There would be no difference between a man and a dog, if he takes impure food and eats every body’s bread. Impure trade also destroys the purity of a man’s mind.]

When a patched-up cloak with a hundred holes in it, is able to keep off the summer’s heat and winter’s cold, then what is the necessity for wealth and riches for a man whose heart is devoted to the worship of Kesava (Brahman). (15)



hari om hari hari

hinduism♥krishna
29 November 2013, 07:04 AM
This was just the demo only from 11th canto of bhagavat purana. Now everything is at proper level .No any scripture posit the final aim other than non-dual unity of atma and bramhan . Various sects arises due to different gunas of people .No any scripture stated difference between atma and bramhan . Only people's mind posit the difference .You won't find any verse which says" atma is not bramhan ". the truth remains the truth . The "bramhavidya " is beyond the guna and is the supreme knowledge.

Yes , that is ! No matter what you think , it is " Aham Bramhasmi " ;) .


hari narayana hari hari

smaranam
29 November 2013, 10:52 AM
Namaste

This is a very good selection and collection of shloka straight from shAstra -
Bhagavad Gita, Uttar GitA (Mahabharat), Uddhav Gita (bhAgavat canto 11).

Thank you HLK for picking Shri KRshNa's words from the scriptures showing advaita as the ultimate truth. It is KRshNa KathA Type A.
There are other places in the BhAgvat and upanishads that echo them, by others, which makes it KRshNa KathA type B.

*** However, what about KRshNa KathA type A glorifying the devotees?

"My devotees are extremely dear to Me, more than My Self, Shri, Shiva, ..."
"My devotees just want to serve Me, they do not expect any of the 5 kinds of mukti (liberation)."

So, both/various states, both/various types, both/various preferences, various mArga, various yoga are applauded in the shAstra taking into consideration different temperaments at a given point in time.

The ParamAtmA is gentle, never imposes things on those whom it is not suitable.

_/\_
~ ~

the sadhu
29 November 2013, 10:57 PM
All this is true, but what is a real bugger is that the Atman doesn't do anything, it simply not its function, its only the energy that does things in otherwords its the will of God

Brahman, mahashakti is nondual yet has the dual qualities of Shiva and shakti, or conditionless consciousness and the conditions of energy. This isn't duality, as they are really the same thing, one cannot exist without the other.
Energy is like water, always moving, but consciousness is like the wettness, it never changes or does anything.

The Scripture say numerous times the Only thing. Exists is Brahman.
If this is the case then there are no individual objects only energy/Consciousness, thus there is no you, or me only Brahman.
Since their are no individual things, but many qualities of one nature then who is here to be God? Clearly you do not exist, only God does. Since you and I don't exist, it cannot even be "our" Atman, it is Gods Atman. Adi shankara says that an ocean can never belong to a wave.
For a single quality to say I am God, is like a cell saying I'm the whole body.

Brahman, is all, then there simply was never any person to ever exist
Jnanis play the Avatar game because they know something, but Brahman isn't a something its other than a thing, this it is No thing.
So ditch the idea of I know something and when one knows nothing there is no diversity of objects. But don't worry the mind will recall any data needed.
Nothing is literally higher than God, its Brahman

brahma jijnasa
29 November 2013, 11:14 PM
Namaste

I was asked by hinduism♥krishna to comment on this thread.

I think this is a Vaishnava forum where no one should propagate Advaita ideas!
There is a special place apart on this HDF intended for the propagation of Advaita ideas and philosophy. Go there and write about Advaita there.

No any scripture stated difference between atma and bramhan .

Vaishnava conclusion is that the individual living entity (jiva) is eternally different from the Supreme Soul (paramatma) or The Supreme Lord who exists as Supreme God:


"The individual spirit-soul and the Supersoul, Personality of Godhead, are like two friendly birds sitting on the same tree. One of the birds (the individual atomic soul) is eating the fruit of the tree (the sense-gratification afforded to the material body), and the other bird (the Supersoul) is not trying to eat these fruits, but is simply watching His friend." (Shvetasvatara Upanishad 4.6)

Here we have clearly pronounced the difference: "two friendly birds" and also "the other bird"! Sanskrit: dvā suparṇā -- two birds; anyaḥ -- the other.
Two birds are never just one bird and also clearly says "the other bird"!
According to the Vaisnavas this difference can not be denied, and that's it. Maybe you do not like it, but that's it. :)


No matter what you think , it is " Aham Bramhasmi " .

Vaishnavas interpret this statement as "The Lord in the form of paramatma is my atma's atma" or "The Lord is my jiva's paramatma (Self)" or "my self's Self is The Lord (paramatma)" or "Paramatma is the Self of my self". So we have two atmas, two birds, two friendly birds. ;)

regards

the sadhu
29 November 2013, 11:39 PM
Namaste btw, forgot to put that in

hinduism♥krishna
30 November 2013, 07:14 AM
Namaste

This is a very good selection and collection of shloka straight from shAstra -
Bhagavad Gita, Uttar GitA (Mahabharat), Uddhav Gita (bhAgavat canto 11).

Thank you HLK for picking Shri KRshNa's words from the scriptures showing advaita as the ultimate truth. It is KRshNa KathA Type A.
There are other places in the BhAgvat and upanishads that echo them, by others, which makes it KRshNa KathA type B.

*** However, what about KRshNa KathA type A glorifying the devotees?

"My devotees are extremely dear to Me, more than My Self, Shri, Shiva, ..."
"My devotees just want to serve Me, they do not expect any of the 5 kinds of mukti (liberation)."

So, both/various states, both/various types, both/various preferences, various mArga, various yoga are applauded in the shAstra taking into consideration different temperaments at a given point in time.

The ParamAtmA is gentle, never imposes things on those whom it is not suitable.

_/\_
~ ~

Thank you , smaranam .

Bhagavata purana clearely mentions that the aim of all vedanta and bhagavata purana is the non-dual unity of atma and bramhan . ( BP 12.13.12 ) .
Sutaji intentionally didn't use just the unity . There he used the " non-dual unity " . The atma and bramhan were never seperate . When jiva merges in krishna , it is just like he has become bramhan . But he very confidently says that he was already bramhan .

Yes , devotees don't accept any four types of moksha . They don't accept even the ultimate moksha " kaivalya " moksha where one experiences there is nothing other than self . Know that pure devotees of krishna are beyond gunas . They have crossed all the desires of mind . Then how can be there the desire of moksha ? Is it possible ? Yes , it is not possible ever . The preson who has crossed maya and is pure devotee of krishna, they have already merged in bramhan . They have realised the ultimate state . They have already united with supreme soul . They have gone beyond the " bramhabhoota " state . They are situated in their eternal , omni-present bramhan .

There is nothing higher than krishna's devotion . It is the ladder by which devotees realises that he is not jiva .He is the atma or bramhan .

HARI NAMA IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE METHOD TO REALISE OUR SELF , WHICH IS NOT DIFFERENT THAN THE BRAMHAN .



Hari krishna hari hari

hinduism♥krishna
30 November 2013, 07:42 AM
Namaste

I was asked by hinduism♥krishna to comment on this thread.

I think this is a Vaishnava forum where no one should propagate Advaita ideas!
There is a special place apart on this HDF intended for the propagation of Advaita ideas and philosophy. Go there and write about Advaita there.

For your info , vaishnawa is not the philosophy . Vaishnawa means the one who worships vishnu . Dvaita , advaita ,etc are the philosophies . Vaishnawa can be advaitian or could be dvaitian and know that my threads often contain what krishna has said ! So this is the right thread in right forum .



Vaishnava conclusion is that the individual living entity (jiva) is eternally different from the Supreme Soul (paramatma) or The Supreme Lord who exists as Supreme God:

"The individual spirit-soul and the Supersoul, Personality of Godhead, are like two friendly birds sitting on the same tree. One of the birds (the individual atomic soul) is eating the fruit of the tree (the sense-gratification afforded to the material body), and the other bird (the Supersoul) is not trying to eat these fruits, but is simply watching His friend." (Shvetasvatara Upanishad 4.6)

Plese note that all things are already cleared by me . I think you didn't read my threads . Krishna himself says that jiva merges in him . Krishna himself explains what is jiva and what is the real identity of jiva . I don't wanna repeat this again and again . For that you should take some effort to read my thread carefully .

Jiva and prakriti are not the real things . They are imagined as the parts of shri krishna . Jiva's real identity is atma or bramhan .
From what you have quoted it doesn't say that jiva is the real thing . There are two birds on one tree . It is just the example to show what is the real identity of jiva and how atma is aloof from guna even if he appears in bondage . You can not take that example very literally. Jiva is just the reflection of his real identity atma or paramatma . Krishna already described jiva as the false superimposition of mind , intellect and pranas on bramhan . So jiva can not be the real thing . Jiva is just the mixture of mind , intellect and prana .The basic support of this is only " aham " ( pride ) , when jiva drops this identity , he automatically gains his real identity , bramhan .

BTW , thank you if you have read this thread .


Hare krishna hare ram

devotee
30 November 2013, 09:28 AM
Namaste HK and all,

On internet discussions, it is made out as if Vaishnavism and Advaita are opposite to each other. However, this thread of HK shatters that notion.

Recently I was reading Garuda PurANa (which is a Vaishnava PurANa) published by Gita Press, Gorakhpur. This PurANa is held in high esteem by Vaishnavas, “Tatha PurANeshu cha GArudam cha mukhyam”. I am not very much fond of PurANas but I picked up this one to understand Death Rituals (ShrAddha) due to certain personal reasons. While reading this scripture, to my amazement, I found that some of the chapters in this PurANa unequivocally preach Advaita and the Advaita SAdhana (practice). I will quote from Chapter 226 of this PurANa :

This is what Bhagwan Dattatreya says to King Alarka in this PurANa :

“The way a spark of fire thrown into fire becomes one with fire, in the same way meditating on God makes the soul one with God. ... One should recite and meditate on “AUM” with these thoughts :

I am self-illumined Parambrahman and not this body. I am the birthless and deathless Brahman. I am that self-illumined Brahman which is untainted by all sins of the earth. ....... (this is long passage where assertion that "I am Brahman" is emphasized again and again in different ways) .... I am eternal, pure, omniscient, free from bondage, blissful, Advaita (non-dual), form of JnAna, self-illumined Brahman.”

OM

Amrut
30 November 2013, 10:40 AM
Namaste,

There is a big garden which has different fruit bearing trees. OP has chosen on type,Brahma Jignasa has chosen another.

As Devotee ji has said, Bhakti is not opposite to Advaita. Advaita in infact bhakti of nirAkAra Brahman.

I have put my observations on HLK's thread - Krishna never used the word 'Vaikuntha' (http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=12147)

Even Vaishnava acharya-s have left space to interpret things in another way.

Just a little note that there are Vaishnava-smArta-s :) Since there is no separate forum for smArta-s, hence smArta-s are left with no option but to post in this section.

Bhakti can lead one to Jnana.

Some may not like HLK's posts, but some may like it. What you pick is subjective.

Aum

Anirudh
30 November 2013, 01:42 PM
Namaste,



Please note that all things are already cleared by me .


I get an impression that you are mixing up philosophy with a branch of Sanaatana Dharma. I have been following three related threads of yours and somewhere lost track. More like reading citations for a premeditated view.

This thread will surely confuse those who are JUST in to the path of Sri Vaishnavism. So the onus is on you to explain why Vishistadvaita sees things in a different light. If you have already explained Can you give the post numbers.

ameyAtmA
30 November 2013, 11:05 PM
"The individual spirit-soul and the Supersoul, Personality of Godhead, are like two friendly birds sitting on the same tree. One of the birds (the individual atomic soul) is eating the fruit of the tree (the sense-gratification afforded to the material body), and the other bird (the Supersoul) is not trying to eat these fruits, but is simply watching His friend." (Shvetasvatara Upanishad 4.6)

Here we have clearly pronounced the difference: "two friendly birds" and also "the other bird"! Sanskrit: dvā suparṇā -- two birds; anyaḥ -- the other.
Two birds are never just one bird and also clearly says "the other bird"!

Namaste brahma jijnasa,

What if the fruit-eating bird
-- flies away
-- stops eating fruit after leaving body and also as it nears death of body
-- has nirjaL ekAdashi vrata (just kidding)
-- has surrendered its existence completely at shri padma padam - the lotus feet of Shri BhagavAn, NArAyaNa? i.e. an all-out Atmanivedanam.

:)

hinduism♥krishna
01 December 2013, 05:48 AM
All this is true, but what is a real bugger is that the Atman doesn't do anything, it simply not its function, its only the energy that does things in otherwords its the will of God

Brahman, mahashakti is nondual yet has the dual qualities of Shiva and shakti, or conditionless consciousness and the conditions of energy. This isn't duality, as they are really the same thing, one cannot exist without the other.
Energy is like water, always moving, but consciousness is like the wettness, it never changes or does anything.

The Scripture says numerous times the Only thing. Exists is Brahman.
If this is the case then there are no individual objects only energy/Consciousness, thus there is no you, or me only Brahman.
Since their are no individual things, but many qualities of one nature then who is here to be God? Clearly you do not exist, only God does. Since you and I don't exist, it cannot even be "our" Atman, it is Gods Atman. Adi shankara says that an ocean can never belong to a wave.
For a single quality to say I am God, is like a cell saying I'm the whole body.

Brahman, is all, then there simply was never any person to ever exist
Jnanis play the Avatar game because they know something, but Brahman isn't a something its other than a thing, this it is No thing.
So ditch the idea of I know something and when one knows nothing there is no diversity of objects. But don't worry the mind will recall any data needed.
Nothing is literally higher than God, its Brahman

Namaste , the sadhu .

Yes I never exists . I is that aham which is nothing other than pride .That is called as jiva .It constitutes the mind ,intellect and prana . This I is the only reason for apparent bondage of jiva .Pride is the only reason due to which jiva thinks himself different from bramhan and see the dualities as if they are real . However note how bhagavata purana defines the reality . It says that soul is always aloof from guna . In reality soul has not any bondage or liberation . The bondage are liberation are seen by the third person due to maya . They have no real existence .This is only the game of unreal maya . Shukadeva says that when one realises his identity with bramhan , it is just like he has become bramhan.But this is not true at all . He was already bramhan . The jiva was just the reflection of the bramhan and this reflection was also unreal . That was only the false appearance . It has not any existence at all . When jiva realises himself that he is not jiva , he automatically gains his real identity which is bramhan . It doesn't mean he has gained something new .He just got what he was already . It is very subtler concept . The person is very rare who understands this completely.

Just take one example . When bramhan(true self ) is in front of mirror , jiva ( imagined self ) sees himself in mirror ( maya ) . When mirror gets disappeared , does soul (real self ) think that he was not before when a false mirror was there ? Does he grieve by saying " oh , I lost my identity " . Is there anything change in real self of jiva ? If you think properly , you will see that there is no change at all in the bramhan/atma/real self by disappearance of mirror . ;) .

Instead of saying I don't exist , only god exists , say " The self exists as self ever "


hari krishna hari hari govinda - just chant this and surrender to that supreme reality which is hidden in your self only .

Thank you . :)

the sadhu
01 December 2013, 10:23 AM
Namaste
You grasp all this quite well. But it is almost mathmatical how the statement "I am God" is at least partially due to Maya.
In the relative level of existence, the whole and the part appear apparent. The whole aspect of a jiva is consciousness which is actioless and undivided, if consciousness could speak it could say I am God, but is without any such attributes.
the body is the finite aspect of a jiva that does things, it is the one who speaks.

So people say I am that, tat team ask, after an initial enlightenment, because although they have realized Consciousness, they are still identified and occupied with the duality of embodied self and other. Essentially when people say things like I am God, I am infinite consciousness, I am Shiva. It is clearly due to the superimposition of an infinite self, on a limited quality; a body. The body should do body stuff with an intuitive knowledge that their self is beyond category , knowing intellectually
that I know nothing, the brain spits out what it percieves.

hinduism♥krishna
02 December 2013, 09:05 AM
Namaste
You grasp all this quite well. But it is almost mathmatical how the statement "I am God" is at least partially due to Maya.
In the relative level of existence, the whole and the part appear apparent. The whole aspect of a jiva is consciousness which is actioless and undivided, if consciousness could speak it could say I am God, but is without any such attributes.
the body is the finite aspect of a jiva that does things, it is the one who speaks.

So people say I am that, tat team ask, after an initial enlightenment, because although they have realized Consciousness, they are still identified and occupied with the duality of embodied self and other. Essentially when people say things like I am God, I am infinite consciousness, I am Shiva. It is clearly due to the superimposition of an infinite self, on a limited quality; a body. The body should do body stuff with an intuitive knowledge that their self is beyond category , knowing intellectually
that I know nothing, the brain spits out what it percieves.

Namaste , I don't think that the statement " I am god/bramhan " contains any partial pride . Instead this statement is completely without pride .

When a real vaishnawa says " I am bramhan " , he is totally surrenderred to the supreme feet of god " . In him , there is no aham (jiva ) . He sees everything in his atma and his atma in everything . He realises " vasudavam sarvam -everything is bramhan ." He has dissolved his false self (jiva),which is nothing but pride , in omnipresent bramhan . Then where is the scope of partial pride ? :)

However , The one who sees difference between god and himself , he is not a surrenderred devotee . He doesn't surrender his "aham" in god's omnipresent nature ,bramhan . This is indeed the pride of self (jiva) .There is a pride of separate consiousness . That devotion is within the field of maya . Because he considers the duality , which has not absolute existence at all . In uddhava gita ,Shri krishna calls the duality as an illusion (maya) and the path of duality as a door to sorrow. So , indeed ,that devotion is not beyond the gunas . It is withinn maya .

I salute to my guru eknath and dnyaneshwar and to shri krishna , who gave me this ultimate knowledge . My dearest guru dnyaneshwar is not different from shri krishna . They all are the embodiment of that supreme divine love . :)

hinduism♥krishna
02 December 2013, 10:03 AM
Namaste HK and all,

On internet discussions, it is made out as if Vaishnavism and Advaita are opposite to each other. However, this thread of HK shatters that notion.

Recently I was reading Garuda PurANa (which is a Vaishnava PurANa) published by Gita Press, Gorakhpur. This PurANa is held in high esteem by Vaishnavas, “Tatha PurANeshu cha GArudam cha mukhyam”. I am not very much fond of PurANas but I picked up this one to understand Death Rituals (ShrAddha) due to certain personal reasons. While reading this scripture, to my amazement, I found that some of the chapters in this PurANa unequivocally preach Advaita and the Advaita SAdhana (practice). I will quote from Chapter 226 of this PurANa :

This is what Bhagwan Dattatreya says to King Alarka in this PurANa :

“The way a spark of fire thrown into fire becomes one with fire, in the same way meditating on God makes the soul one with God. ... One should recite and meditate on “AUM” with these thoughts :

I am self-illumined Parambrahman and not this body. I am the birthless and deathless Brahman. I am that self-illumined Brahman which is untainted by all sins of the earth. ....... (this is long passage where assertion that "I am Brahman" is emphasized again and again in different ways) .... I am eternal, pure, omniscient, free from bondage, blissful, Advaita (non-dual), form of JnAna, self-illumined Brahman.”

OM

Thank you , devotee for posting that verses .

I wanna tell you that there are thousands of verses which clearly supports advaita bhakti in bhagavat purana . As it is not possible to put them all , I specially selected the end of bhagavat purana . Because the end always contains the essence . In that , I specially choosed the uddhava gita . Because it was the final words of shri krishna before going to his eternal state . According to me , there is nothing higher than uddhava gita which was spoken by shri krishna . This uddhva gita is the essence of all shastras . It wouldn't be wrong if i said uddhava gita is greater than bhagavad gita . Really , that final words of krishna are the sea of nectar . It is full of kindness of krishna towards his great devotee ,uddhava .

Devotee ji , there are two vaishnawism - dvaitian vaishnawism and advaitian vaishnawism and know that the final canto clearely says that the final aim is only non-dual unity between atma and bramhan . So , indeed , bhagavat purana clrealy supports advaitian vaishnawism only and discards the other .

Jaskaran Singh
02 December 2013, 10:19 AM
Devotee ji , there are two vaishnawism - dvaitian vaishnawism and advaitian vaishnawism and know that the final canto clearely says that the final aim is only non-dual unity between atma and bramhan . So , indeed , bhagavat purana clrealy supports advaitian vaishnawism only and discards the other .


Really? I would say it all depends on which way you would define the unity of AtmA and brahman.

hinduism♥krishna
02 December 2013, 10:27 PM
Really? I would say it all depends on which way you would define the unity of AtmA and brahman.


Oh really ,

Sutaji have clearely said that the aim of bhagavat purana is to realise non-dual unity between atma and bramhan . What is there to interprete on this ?

I know there are some masters of misinterpretations , who would prove this unity as a difference also .

Know that this unity is not the oridinary unity which we consider on material/mind levels .It is beyond the mind .It is beyond our comprehension . To define it , shukadeva says " when jiva merges his jivahood in the bramhan ,it is just like he has become bramhan ,But in reality he was already bramhan " Think on this statement . You will come to know what is that unity ? .That unity is beyond the duality . It is not the unity between two things .It is the unity between the same thing . That unity is irrespective of maya . It is beyond maya . Jiva was already bramhan . Even if atma appears in maya , it is always beyond maya and is situated in his eternal all-pervading state . This is a vedanta .

Finally shukadeva says " You are the bramhan , you are parabramhan , you are that absolute abode . Is there anything more to listen now ? " .


Personal comment : Dear brother , your posts are always offensive and without any point . You first take the words very literally and try to disprove others by posting some illogical points .Remember this is not religiousforums .It is HDF .HDF demands quality posts . I request you not to post here . Please don not ruin my thread . Yes , you can post which is related to bhagavta purana or any other scripture .

devotee
03 December 2013, 12:37 AM
Namaste HLK,


[FONT=Comic Sans MS]there are two vaishnawism - dvaitian vaishnawism and advaitian vaishnawism and know that the final canto clearely says that the final aim is only non-dual unity between atma and bramhan . So , indeed , bhagavat purana clrealy supports advaitian vaishnawism only and discards the other .


I love Lord Krishna. He has been my first Guru and guide on the road of spirituality. I was more of an atheist before I found Bhagwad Gita and its profound message therein. However, only when I read Upanishads, I could understand the real message of Bhagawd Gita. However, while discussing with some of the Vaishnavas here, I was made to feel by some members as if I was anti-Krishna due to my Advaitic thinking and that hurt me very much.

I really owe a lot to you for bringing up the hidden treasure in Bhagwad PurANa. I am sure it must be none other than Lord Krishna who prompted you to do this which has given me a great relief, as I myself could not have done this as I am not fond of PurANas. Thanks to HDF and thanks to you again.

In fact, what you say appeals to me as I have a practical example to what you say. In Varanasi, I know a Vaishnava saint who appears to me as God-realised as his life-story is extra-ordinary. There is book on him written by a professor of Benaras Hindu University (titled, "Shool Tankeshwar ke sant). When I talked to him, I was happily surprised when he started preaching Advaitic teachings. He even gave Advaitic interpretation of Ramayana passages etc. It appeared to me that he was well versed in VedAntic teachings. However, I came to know later that all this knowledge came to him through SAdhanA without reading books. I pointedly asked him in one meeting : "Sir, in your opinion, Atman is one or many ?" Without hesitation he said, "Atman is One alone. All beings are created just like reflection of sun in various water-pots... It is One which manifests as Many." He also said in one place, "Please remember that the only reality of this world is that whatever is seen here is nothing real."

OM

Amrut
03 December 2013, 01:17 AM
My Pranams to the great Saint __/ \__

Hari OM

hinduism♥krishna
03 December 2013, 06:45 AM
Namaste HLK,



I love Lord Krishna. He has been my first Guru and guide on the road of spirituality. I was more of an atheist before I found Bhagwad Gita and its profound message therein. However, only when I read Upanishads, I could understand the real message of Bhagawd Gita. However, while discussing with some of the Vaishnavas here, I was made to feel by some members as if I was anti-Krishna due to my Advaitic thinking and that hurt me very much.

I really owe a lot to you for bringing up the hidden treasure in Bhagwad PurANa. I am sure it must be none other than Lord Krishna who prompted you to do this which has given me a great relief, as I myself could not have done this as I am not fond of PurANas. Thanks to HDF and thanks to you again.

In fact, what you say appeals to me as I have a practical example to what you say. In Varanasi, I know a Vaishnava saint who appears to me as God-realised as his life-story is extra-ordinary. There is book on him written by a professor of Benaras Hindu University (titled, "Shool Tankeshwar ke sant). When I talked to him, I was happily surprised when he started preaching Advaitic teachings. He even gave Advaitic interpretation of Ramayana passages etc. It appeared to me that he was well versed in VedAntic teachings. However, I came to know later that all this knowledge came to him through SAdhanA without reading books. I pointedly asked him in one meeting : "Sir, in your opinion, Atman is one or many ?" Without hesitation he said, "Atman is One alone. All beings are created just like reflection of sun in various water-pots... It is One which manifests as Many." He also said in one place, "Please remember that the only reality of this world is that whatever is seen here is nothing real."

OM

I personally feel that you are the true devotee of krishna . That vaishnawa is very lucky who has devotion to krishna and is the master of 'bramhavidya -advaita' and you are that lucky vaishnawa ! :)

Oh , pranams to that saint ! I salute him .

BTW , do you know great devotees of krishna , dnyaneshwara , ekanath , tukaram . They all are my gurus . They also taught devotion to krishna along with advaita knowledge . You should read about them and their writings . In their writings , on every line ,there is divine love towards shri krishna .

Hari krishna

hinduism♥krishna
03 December 2013, 11:11 AM
Namaste,
Advaita in infact bhakti of nirAkAra Brahman.


And advaitian vaishnawism is the bhakti of shri krishna with conviction of 'tat twam asi' . Upanishadas and puranas accept only this type of worship . This is the devotion which is not within gunas . Because form and duality between god and devotee appears only because of gunas . One should worship shri krishna (in form ) by condering his real all-pervading nature .Just as there is no difference between moon and its disk , like this there is no any difference between shri krishna ( in form ) and bramhan. So there is no any difference between worship of formless bramhan and saguna bramhan .


Hari krishna hari hari

hinduism♥krishna
04 December 2013, 07:56 AM
Namaste
"The individual spirit-soul and the Supersoul, Personality of Godhead, are like two friendly birds sitting on the same tree. One of the birds (the individual atomic soul) is eating the fruit of the tree (the sense-gratification afforded to the material body), and the other bird (the Supersoul) is not trying to eat these fruits, but is simply watching His friend." (Shvetasvatara Upanishad 4.6)Here we have clearly pronounced the difference: "two friendly birds" and also "the other bird"! Sanskrit: dvā suparṇā -- two birds; anyaḥ -- the other.
Two birds are never just one bird and also clearly says "the other bird"!
According to the Vaisnavas this difference can not be denied, and that's it. Maybe you do not like it, but that's it.

Namaste , bramha jijnasa .

Sorry to say ,but This is a masterpiece of misinterpretation ! :) I can prove this by bhagavat purana . :cool1:

That upanishadic verse is just the example to show what is the difference between man in bondage and man in freedom though there are similarly placed in the one tree-one body . :gotcha:

Krishna sates the same verse in the uddhava gita of bhagavat purana .

Look carefully :

" Now I shall tell you the difference in the states of the man in bondage and the man in freedom, though they are similarly placed in their bodies. " (BP 11.11.5)

" There is a pair of birds kindred and settled as companians in the same nest on the tree by force of Maya, the divine will. One of these partakes of the fruit in the 'peepul tree' of the body while the other, though going without food is superior in strength. (BP 11.11.6)

CONCLUSION :

IT IS JUST THE EXAMPLE TO SHOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MAN IN BONDAGE AND THE MAN IN FREEDOM . The birds are situated on the same tree , it means the both persons are situated in same the condition of body . It doesn't mean that there are actually two entities in same body . :gotcha:

This is the understanding . Of course , one should have a sharp intellect to understand this .

Explaination : The word Suparna means a bird. It flies from one tree to another tree. Similarly the soul who is having a body goes from one body to another body and therefore it is also called a bird.
The reason of calling the soul as a bird is that the soul also travels like a bird, in this case from one body to another.
In this way it is shown that Atman is different from the body and in that explanation, the doctrine of the physical body as the Atman is also discredited.
The Lord is emphatically explaining for Uddhava that Atman can never be only a body and it is totally wrong to think that Atman is body.
There are crores of births and deaths in that concept of ‘Atman as body’, and because Shiva thinks that He is Jeeva attached to and bound by the limitations of the body there is all the complexity of hell and heaven!
Both are same as spirit and they cannot be like the inert thing that is the body. Both are friends from the beginning of time and they love each other by their very life!
They are both never separated from each other whatever may be the time and the situation.They live with each other playfully, friendly and sincerely.
The lamp does not become separate from its light and the light does not become estranged for the lamp; similarly the dual existence of Jeeva and Shiva continues together by their own
inherent nature.
Just observe how the God gives everything to the Jeeva as he desires and never says no to him.
Whatever the Jeeva desires at the time of his bearing physical body, God gives him completely and it is by the will of God that the Jeeva is functioning with all his being.
Actually the Jeeva completely and faithfully obeys the orders of Shiva and never says no to him. This is the wonder of their friendship.
Their friendship is extraordinary, As and when the Shiva gives orders the Jeeva acts exactly according to it and never goes astray.
Right from the time of the birth of Jeeva in the physical body, he totally complies with the will of God, Shiva and as there is friendship between the two, God is always helping Jeeva.
When the Jeeva is in great difficulty, he calls God for help and God also runs to succour help to Jeeva and save him.
In this way Jeeva obeys Shiva and when the state of separate existence of Jeeva comes to an end he becomes united with Shiva. Shiva also remains as Shiva only for the sake of Jeeva.
Otherwise, there is no such Being as Shiva at all.

Thus the Lord proved that Jeeva is under the control of Shiva and at the same time he disproved the doctrine of atheism.
By disproving atheism he also discarded the belief of people that there is no God. Those who are of the opinion that Karma is the main factor do not believe in God.
They say that consciousness is one quality or attribute of God and not actually the spirit. The Lord discarded that opinion and established that God is nothing but pure spirit, pure
consciousness. when there is thinking of various kinds, on various subjects it is called Chitta and when there is silence and stillness beyond thinking it is called pure Chaitanya or pure energy, spirit.
Some people do not give importance to proper and right conduct or morality and say that God bestows freedom. This is the opinion of a devotee who does not believe in righteous behaviour. The Lord also proved the importance of knowledge and then discarded that also.

The words सशौ and सखायौ mean respectively ‘similar ’ and ‘friends’. Using the meaning of these words the Lord has disproved the doctrine of non-believers.

The Lord Krishna has taken good advantage of these two words to defeat arguments of other systems of philosophy and to establish the main theory.

Both the birds together built a nest of the tree of this body. Now please also listen why this body is called a tree.

Here the womb of the mother is the trough, the semen of the father is the seed, the conception is the sowing and desire is the water in which the seed grows.

I am Soham or Brahman and the hidden sprout of this sense of being a Brahman is the triple factors of the observer, the thing observed and the act of observing, which grow in the soil
of the three Gunas. The sprout has three little leaves of waking, dreaming and sleeping states. This sprout grows into the big tree of the body.

That tree has many branches of arms and legs; and nails and hair on the head etc which add to the shape of this tree.
That tree has the strong roots of the concept that “I am the body” and there are secondary hanging roots of ‘doubts’. When they penetrate the soil further there are very delicate new spouts.

The thick foliage of right action and wrong action grows profusely on this tree and many branches of flowers of allurement and possessiveness, hang on the branches. Large branches of pleasure and pain rise very high and they bear fruit by the weight of which
some of the branches bend down to the earth.

In this tree of the body, Jeeva and Shiva have built a nest in the very secret place of the heart.

In that nest, Jeeva and Paramatman live. If you will say that when one accepts that both the birds reside in the body, then the body must be real! But the Lord discards that argument.

The Lord said – The shadow of a man is unreal. It cannot be cut or broken. Similarly my Maya, the divine power, is inscrutable. It builds the nest by her own will.

The Jeeva’s residence in that nest is unusual and only conceptual, as the fictitious family life of the dream state which a man experiences while he is sleeping.
[In this way, the Lord discredited the main argument of the Nyaya system of philosophy], by expounding the theory that the body itself is illusory.

This tree (of the body) is, every moment from the birth, being eaten by Death and the Time as death, destroys the stages of childhood, youth etc.The fruits of this tree are called Peepuls, which are salty, sweet, sour, purgent, bitter, raw or
overripe!

One of the birds which is called Jeeva, is the one who suffers from the bitter fruits, the result of good or bad Actions.
The fruits are not enough to satisfy the hunger, these fruits are not properly digested, and Jeeva has the vertigo like suffering of the rounds of births and deaths.
When one starts eating the fruits the other indicates to him, not to eat, but Jeeva being fond of the fruits continues to eat them and never listens to the good advice given by the other.

Though Jeeva eats the fruits day and night, it has no strength and then the death grasps it in its jaws. He who enjoys the fruits of actions, is tied down by death. The second bird does not eat the
fruits and the death fears him and runs away.
He who does not eat the fruits of the actions, soon becomes more powerful by his knowledge and being completely satisfied by highest blissful joy he is zooming in the ecstasy of self-bliss.


So in this way , it clearly shows that you have misinterpreted that verse very highly . There are not two things at all . There is only one thing ,bramhan .

I really don't know why dvaitian vaishnawas always misinterpretes the verses like this ? :headscratch:

hinduism♥krishna
05 December 2013, 07:01 AM
Namaste,

I get an impression that you are mixing up philosophy with a branch of Sanaatana Dharma.

Namaste , anirudha . What do you mean vaishnawa is the philosophy ? Who told you ? The branches of sanatana dharma like , vaishnawism , shaivism , can accept any philosophy they want . Vaishnawa could be advaitian or dvaitian . The philosophy and sects are two different things .

The history shows that advaitian vaishnawism was the true vaishnawa dharma . Because advaita is the oldest philosophy . Bhagavat purana too support advaita vaishnawism . I don't think there is any scripture which supports the path of duality . Besides bhagavat purana itself says that the aim of all vedanta is the non-dual unity between atma and bramhan .Then where is the scope for dvaitians in vedic scriptures ?

Dvaitian vaishnawism was originated from madhavacharya somewhere at the time of muslim invasion in bharata .

Correct me if I am wrong.
Hari krishna ....

brahma jijnasa
05 December 2013, 10:43 AM
Namaste

Sorry to say ,but This is a masterpiece of misinterpretation ! I can prove this by bhagavat purana .

That upanishadic verse is just the example to show what is the difference between man in bondage and man in freedom though there are similarly placed in the one tree-one body .
...
IT IS JUST THE EXAMPLE TO SHOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MAN IN BONDAGE AND THE MAN IN FREEDOM . The birds are situated on the same tree , it means the both persons are situated in same the condition of body . It doesn't mean that there are actually two entities in same body

So according to your understanding of this verse from the Shvetasvatara Upanishad 4.6 it is said that two persons are in the same body, one liberated person and the other in bondage?

regards