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Newbee_b
30 November 2013, 06:22 AM
Prabhupada clearly defines his mission as “Broadcasting the cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and fighting with the impersonalists and voidists“.

“Sunyavadi, they say, “There is no God, and there is nothing, fact. Everything is combination of some illusory things.” This is sunyavadi. And the Mayavadi, they say, “Yes, there is God, but He has no form.” Therefore we have to kill both of them.

There are so many Mayavadis; you have to defeat them. It is not that we are cowards. We are Krsna’s soldiers.

http://krishna.org/why-we-criticize-mayavadis/

Why do we have to kill other people for their beliefs?Is this is a dharmic thing to do for ISKCon devotees?

Is Prabhupada joking here?:D

Haribol!

hinduism♥krishna
30 November 2013, 07:44 AM
Namaste , Is this true ? If yes ,that is very rude .

They claim that there is difference between atma and bramhan , Yet they say that they are following bhagavat purana . However bhagavat purana is advaitic scripture . In fact bhagavata purana itself says that the aim of this is the non-dual unity between atma and bramhan. Yes bramhan is formless . It is described as " nirvikar" or "aroopa" in scriptures for thousand times .

For that , you should see my " you are god -part 2 " and "you are god -part 1 " threads which are in vaishnawa forum .

I request you to check it carefully .

THANK YOU .

Devi Dasi
30 November 2013, 12:05 PM
Why do we have to kill other people for their beliefs?Is this is a dharmic thing to do for ISKCon devotees?

Is Prabhupada joking here?:D

Haribol!

Hare Krsna prabhu,

A few years ago there was a popular book here in America titled: "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." which was actually written by a psychotherapist. In a commentary to the Amazon version of the book, someone has explained nicely,
"Killing the Buddha is looking deeply within ourselves, accepting our limitations, our attributes, and everything in between. We are the experts in the journey of our own lives. No one else is."
The phrase, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him," actually is a Zen Buddhist aphorism stated by a ninth-century Buddhist master Lin Chi. Now just imagine, Zen Buddhists preaching about killing the Buddha! Okay, this literalism in the absence of context is really the problem. This kind of philosophical phraseology was very common during Srila Prabhupada's times because that was the primarily American audience he was speaking to, and they understood the subtleties of these definitions.

If you'll note, the linked article talking about Srila Prabhupada's conversation was, "Morning Walk Conversation December 3, 1975." Please note the surrounding discussion involves the kind of philosophical aphorisms popular during the hippie movement at the time.


Here is a direct link to that entire conversation so the context becomes apparent.
http://www.prabhupadavani.org/main/Walks/MW127.htm (http://www.prabhupadavani.org/main/Walks/MW127.html)
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/236x/cb/ab/5a/cbab5a62a0d811aa2802f32710c9817b.jpg


Harikesa: There is one nice thing I saw on one wall. It says, "God is dead. Nietzche "And then right underneath it somebody wrote, "Nietzche is dead. God."

Prabhupada: Nietzche? Nietzche means?

Harikesa: Nietzche, that philosopher. He was the one who first...

Prabhupada: (Aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. Yes.

Harikesa: Nietzche first brought up the philosophy of "Everything is nothing," for the Western people. "It's all nothing. It all ultimately boils down to nothing. So there is no possibility of God."

Prabhupada: Sunyavadi. Sunyavadi. That is sunyavadi. Nirvisesa-sunyavadi. Sunyavadi, they say, "There is no God, and there is nothing, fact. Everything is combination of some illusory things." This is sunyavadi. And the Mayavadi, they say, "Yes, there is God, but He has no form." Therefore we have to kill both of them. Nirvisesa-sunyavad-pascatya-desa-tarine. The whole Western world are filled up with these sunyavadi and impersonalists. India is also nowadays, but there are, still there are devotees in the acarya-sampradaya. They are fighting against sunyavada and nirvisesa.

...

Gopala Krsna: We don't admit people who look like hippies or something.

Aksayananda: That girl, I told her she had to wear a sari. And she did for some time, but then again she stopped.

Prabhupada: That I am speaking, that sa yadi kriyate raja.

Aksayananda: Due to habit.

Prabhupada: Sakrn nasnuta pahanam (?) That is the difficulty. It will be very bad example. People will think... They already thinking that "These are all hippies." That will minimize the prestige of the temple. Jaipuria House they do not allow any hippies. You know that?

Gopala Krsna: Jaipuria does not allow any foreigners at all. They don't allow any foreigners at all, even if somebody is decently dressed.

Aksayananda: One boy came a couple of weeks ago. He had long hair. But the next day he came back and shaved up. He's a devotee now. He's doing nicely.

Prabhupada: That's nice.

Aksayananda: So they will still come. They can become devotees. It's all right then.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. [break]

Aksayananda: ...doing, Srila Prabhupada. If they come and they have long hair but if there's a chance they might become devotees, I tell them they must tie up their hair in such a way that you cannot see it.

Prabhupada: That's all right. If many comes like that to become devotee, then it becomes a devotee place, er, hippie place. You give them chance to become a devotee. In the meantime, it will be known as a hippie resort.

Harikesa: That's always been a problem here.

Prabhupada: It is no problem. You can allow for three days only. [B]If he does not change his habit, then he must go.

http://www.prabhupadavani.org/main/Walks/MW127.html
The context clearly shows the discussion revolves around a philosophical point and how dangerous to spiritual life shunyavadism is, as the linkage is to the nihilism and self-worship prevalent in the West, and in philosopher's such as Nietzsche, who went insane, and whose writings were highly prized by the Nazis as they glamorized a "Will to Power" and taking by force whatever one wanted, a sort of spiritual Darwinism that had no fear of God or moral consequences, kind of like, "Do what thou Wilt." of the Wiccan and Satanist movements. It was spoken in the context of Nietzsche proclaiming God is dead, and then the humor of God proclaiming Nietzsche is dead.

What is to be "killed?" Understand that in a Dvaita context it is the false ideas of a void without God, or a jeev-atma that mistakes itself for God and such leads to many problems.

And further proofs of the actual context, Srila Prabhupada goes on in discussion to answer concerns that the movement not degenerate into a Western-style "hippie resort" and that those people who come to listen to the teachings be afforded time to change themselves or leave.

If anyone insists on slandering ISKCON as an Abrahamic sect preaching war and literal killing... then, where are the weapons? Where is the military training? Where are the battlefields these wars and killing are taking place? Why waste time in such a discussion about a young prabhu with long hair who shaved and began conforming to Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta and not some battleplan? No, the context is killing the faults within ourselves, but we can lose devotion and devotees by accomodating lack of sadhana, do-it-yourself faulty practices and faulty philosophies.

Really, the slanders are too absurd. Please forgive my mistakes.

Newbee_b
30 November 2013, 08:57 PM
Thanks HLK and Devi Dasi.:)

the sadhu
30 November 2013, 09:15 PM
Namaste
Just to push the envelope a bit. How is dvaita philosphy viewed as legitimate? It appeared centuries after Advaita and vishishtadvaita. What is Hindu without yoga, non duality is the liberating aspect of Hindu dharma.

Dvaita was proposed after the Muslim invasion, and Christian missionaries, and there is really no reason to believe that dvaita is anything but an Abrahamic version of hinduism expounded in the 13th century.
Madhava was convinced against the teaching of the Vedas yet kept its outer husk as Vishnu devotees....

Araloka
03 December 2013, 05:50 PM
Hare Krsna prabhu,

A few years ago there was a popular book here in America titled: "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." which was actually written by a psychotherapist. In a commentary to the Amazon version of the book, someone has explained nicely,
"Killing the Buddha is looking deeply within ourselves, accepting our limitations, our attributes, and everything in between. We are the experts in the journey of our own lives. No one else is."
The phrase, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him," actually is a Zen Buddhist aphorism stated by a ninth-century Buddhist master Lin Chi. Now just imagine, Zen Buddhists preaching about killing the Buddha! Okay, this literalism in the absence of context is really the problem. This kind of philosophical phraseology was very common during Srila Prabhupada's times because that was the primarily American audience he was speaking to, and they understood the subtleties of these definitions.

If you'll note, the linked article talking about Srila Prabhupada's conversation was, "Morning Walk Conversation December 3, 1975." Please note the surrounding discussion involves the kind of philosophical aphorisms popular during the hippie movement at the time.


Here is a direct link to that entire conversation so the context becomes apparent.
http://www.prabhupadavani.org/main/Walks/MW127.htm (http://www.prabhupadavani.org/main/Walks/MW127.html)
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/236x/cb/ab/5a/cbab5a62a0d811aa2802f32710c9817b.jpg

The context clearly shows the discussion revolves around a philosophical point and how dangerous to spiritual life shunyavadism is, as the linkage is to the nihilism and self-worship prevalent in the West, and in philosopher's such as Nietzsche, who went insane, and whose writings were highly prized by the Nazis as they glamorized a "Will to Power" and taking by force whatever one wanted, a sort of spiritual Darwinism that had no fear of God or moral consequences, kind of like, "Do what thou Wilt." of the Wiccan and Satanist movements. It was spoken in the context of Nietzsche proclaiming God is dead, and then the humor of God proclaiming Nietzsche is dead.

What is to be "killed?" Understand that in a Dvaita context it is the false ideas of a void without God, or a jeev-atma that mistakes itself for God and such leads to many problems.

And further proofs of the actual context, Srila Prabhupada goes on in discussion to answer concerns that the movement not degenerate into a Western-style "hippie resort" and that those people who come to listen to the teachings be afforded time to change themselves or leave.

If anyone insists on slandering ISKCON as an Abrahamic sect preaching war and literal killing... then, where are the weapons? Where is the military training? Where are the battlefields these wars and killing are taking place? Why waste time in such a discussion about a young prabhu with long hair who shaved and began conforming to Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta and not some battleplan? No, the context is killing the faults within ourselves, but we can lose devotion and devotees by accomodating lack of sadhana, do-it-yourself faulty practices and faulty philosophies.

Really, the slanders are too absurd. Please forgive my mistakes.


"If you see the Buddha, kill him" has to do with not idolizing others. "Kill those who disagree with us" is not, and cannot be, any kind of metaphor in English

Araloka
03 December 2013, 05:53 PM
As for "where are the weapons and soldiers" actually research ISKCON's history, the Culver City temple was a well known compound full of weapons. New Ramen Reti elders are now discussing building a shooting range after they are done with their new Goshala and retreat facilities, and are intent on training Kshatriyas, there's your soldiers. It is not slander it is fact.

Devi Dasi
04 December 2013, 05:57 PM
"If you see the Buddha, kill him" has to do with not idolizing others. "Kill those who disagree with us" is not, and cannot be, any kind of metaphor in English

Hare Krsna,

Did you read the context in which Srila Prabhupada was speaking? Here is the statement in it's entirety:

Harikesa: There is one nice thing I saw on one wall. It says, "God is dead. Nietzche "And then right underneath it somebody wrote, "Nietzche is dead. God."

Prabhupada: Nietzche? Nietzche means?

Harikesa: Nietzche, that philosopher. He was the one who first...

Prabhupada: (Aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. Yes.

Harikesa: Nietzche first brought up the philosophy of "Everything is nothing," for the Western people. "It's all nothing. It all ultimately boils down to nothing. So there is no possibility of God."

Prabhupada: Sunyavadi. Sunyavadi. That is sunyavadi. Nirvisesa-sunyavadi. Sunyavadi, they say, "There is no God, and there is nothing, fact. Everything is combination of some illusory things." This is sunyavadi. And the Mayavadi, they say, "Yes, there is God, but He has no form." Therefore we have to kill both of them. Nirvisesa-sunyavad-pascatya-desa-tarine. The whole Western world are filled up with these sunyavadi and impersonalists. India is also nowadays, but there are, still there are devotees in the acarya-sampradaya. They are fighting against sunyavada and nirvisesa.

Excuse me dear but, WHO has to be killed? The answer is not any person, and not any followers... but the CONCEPTS of Shunyavadism (there is no God) and mayavadism (There is no manifestation or Personhood of God). And it is said in the context of metaphor as is given in the first part of the conversation beginning with Harikesa speaking about the quote regarding the philosopher Nietzsche proclaiming that God was dead... and later God proclaiming that Nietzsche was dead.



"As for "where are the weapons and soldiers" actually research ISKCON's history, the Culver City temple was a well known compound full of weapons. New Ramen Reti elders are now discussing building a shooting range after they are done with their new Goshala and retreat facilities, and are intent on training Kshatriyas, there's your soldiers. It is not slander it is fact."I know well the history and the controversies and even personally, a few of the people involved. But let's not lose context, Srila Prabhupada did not train an Army, nor have military maneuvers nor advocate the physical killing of anybody... and that's a fact. If you have any evidence of THIS, kindly share it.

There is some controversy following the samadhi of Srila Prabhupada and the 11 successor acharyas. Now this is another matter entirely, and involves conspiracy theories and some split from within ISKCON into Prabhupadanugas who reject the 11 successor Acharyas as well as the current GBC, and figure like Srila Narayan Maharaj who tried to give shiksa to the successor Acharyas and was made unwelcome by the GBC...

There were a number of falldowns, scandals, irregularities, etc.... but none of them can be claimed as the TEACHING of Srila Prabhupada. In actuality, not even as teaching of ISKCON itself, as the governing body commission removed troubled gurus and created rules to prevent persons who had falldowns from being in positions of authority.

So, if some persons have fallen into scandal, how does it reflect on the teachings, when the teachings neither condone nor advocate that? Who were these chelay? Srila Prabhupada found most of them on the streets high on drugs, completely lost. His Divine Grace has said that generation would not become Krsna conscious, and neither would their children become Krsna conscious. But by the third generation, some of these would become Krsna conscious. Srila Prabhupada also warned that the illuminati had infiltrated the Hare Krsna movement, and if you know anything about American intelligence agencies, they infiltrated religious groups for decades.

Now we have this controversial situation where it is claimed Srila Prabhupada was actually poisoned and the Vyasasana taken by agents. Honestly, I don't have any way of knowing, it's a conspiracy theory and I suppose possible.

But even then, the GBC has made wonderful reforms and protections to prevent abuses, removed many unqualified persons from leadership, and does not nor at any time has advocated military training, or wars or killing anybody at all. So please, don't confuse the teachings of Srila Prabhupada with the drama following His samadhi, nor of the positive direction the GBC took in taking back control of the movement from the 11 successor Acharyas.

So, today, can you point to any place where ISKCON is collecting guns and training an Army to kill people? Or is all your evidence based on the drama following the samadhi of Srila Prabhupada, and the persons who became the successors? Because ISKCON doesn't even work like that any longer, the GBC scrutinizes and monitors the gurus of the movement now, and there is a way to redress any problems or complaints. If a guru or temple President or other leader within ISKCON is discovered to have violated vows, or rules, or even the 4 regulations he is removed.

So how does something from the past, involving particular personalities who may have given misguidance or done wrong-doing reflect on ISKCON itself?

Devi Dasi
04 December 2013, 06:23 PM
"New Ramen Reti elders are now discussing building a shooting range after they are done with their new Goshala and retreat facilities, and are intent on training Kshatriyas, there's your soldiers. It is not slander it is fact."I have not heard anything of this nature before, nor can I locate any information on this on internet. Do you have a link? Also, consider that if such does not exist yet...

HOW can it possibly be associated with Srila Prabhupada's instructions when for 30 years now nothing has been done to implement it? No, this would be new thing, and if it is true, sounds like the political corruptions affecting many religious groups in India as well as United States promoting some war with Muslims.

So there's your soldiers? WHERE are they? Per your admonition, this is a hearsay comment about some future plan and as yet do not exist. ISKCON trains brahmanas not kshatriyas. While it's true there have been bodyguards from the very beginning as Srila Prabhupada would often travel all over the world and sometimes there would be danger or threats. But to TRAINING Kshatriyas out of ISKCON? Nonsense.

All the world is setting itself on fire, and infiltrated by government agents who feed like rakshasas on wars. For a fact the spiritual movement of Mahaprabhu Chaitanya is not anything like this. If you see ISKCON becoming this, then it has taken a wrong direction.

As to killing mayavadis, for one thing, it's a distortion of what Srila Prabhupada actually said. Srila Prabhupada spoke about what has to be killed are the concepts of Shunyavadism and Mayavadism, not any people. And to offer ridiculous proofs that some temple leaders in Alachua may have said they want to set up a shooting range, and pretend that's an equivalent, I would consider very faulty logic and a smear campaign.

The whole message is to get people to chant, to become vegetarian, to change themselves and to worship Krsna. There isn't anything about preparing for wars or killing any human being. Anything else is a change and a distortion of the original, authentic message.


"Kill those who disagree with us" is not, and cannot be, any kind of metaphor in EnglishNeither is it what Srila Prabhupada actually said. It's a distortion of what His Divine Grace said. Here are the exact words:
"This is sunyavadi. And the Mayavadi, they say, "Yes, there is God, but He has no form." Therefore we have to kill both of them. Nirvisesa-sunyavad-pascatya-desa-tarine. The whole Western world are filled up with these sunyavadi and impersonalists. India is also nowadays, but there are, still there are devotees in the acarya-sampradaya. They are fighting against sunyavada and nirvisesa."

There is no instruction to kill or harm people in this sentence. There is no comment about "killing those who disagree with us." It doesn't exist. So why build a faulty accusation on a false claim?