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yajvan
28 December 2013, 05:33 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

If one visits temples over the years they will see massive structures. With some research one will find that these temples (mandira¹ or devālaya¹) have a place in them called garbha gṛha:

garbha - the inside , interior of anything ; some too call the 'womb'
gṛha - the house or habitationIn western nomenclature this location is called sanctum sanctorum = the holy (place) of the holy (places)

Now I cannot say with any degree of certainty that all 3 designs that are employed e.g. nāgara,drāviḍa and vesara, have this same format, but many that I have visited did.

Many times you will experience massive stone/granite structures that are magnificent. Yet when you come to the garbha gṛha it is with a low entrance... in some temples one needs to bend down significantly to get though.

Now one would think, these great architects could have made a grand entrance way to this garbha gṛha( and many do) but why do many temples skimp on the opening ? Did they run out of granite, or is there something else that is going on ?

One must note - nothing is done without a reason. The whole design of the devālaya is to an exact size, purpose, direction, and maṇḍala¹ design. So why the small entrance way?

iti śivaṁ


words

mandira some write mandir - habitation , dwelling , house , palace , temple
devālaya - residence of the devāta-s
maṇḍala - we know means circular; yet it too means division, surroundings

Viraja
28 December 2013, 05:57 PM
Namaste Yajvan ji,

The deity at the garba-graha is associated with lots of real energy at the temple. The deity is invoked into the vigraha by means of possible yantras placed underneath the statue. And, periodical 'Kumbabhishekam' are performed with water containing mantra vibrations being sprinkled atop the 'Kalasha' which brings about/increases the energy associated with the deity within the temple. Similarly, keeping the garbagraha as much closed preserves this radiating energy. The entrance is made such that only as much as the deity alone is visible which protects much of the energy/power radiating from the deity which the deity is able to shower on the devotee.

Aanandinii
28 December 2013, 10:24 PM
One must note - nothing is done without a reason. The whole design of the devālaya is to an exact size, purpose, direction, and maṇḍala¹ design. So why the small entrance way?
Namaskar Yajvanji,

Thank you very much for this topic. I have not studied much Vastu Shastra yet, but I find it very interesting and look forward to your next post on this.

I can only offer my own experience and feeling when entering such Mandir sanctums, and they may very likely be colored by my own cultural filters and thus have no bearing at all on the actual intent of the construction. Yet I will try anyway.

I agree with Viraja's post above because while the energy/vibration around and in the halls of a Mandir is strong, it becomes stronger as you approach the Garbha Griha, and is strongest inside in my own experience. However, the interior chamber itself is not large enough to prostrate - at least not in the small number of Mandir-s that contain this kind of Sanctum that I have seen.

Such low entrances require the devotee to bow low in appropriate genuflection, and concentrate as they enter. And when one rises again, and raises their face to the God/Goddess, facing the full brunt of the energy and beauty before them, it is like from rising from prostration and can be almost like revelation at times. Like entering a new world, or the home of the God/Goddess.

Similarly, as you state above, some translations of Garbha Griha are similar to "Womb House", which is the understanding I have been given as I try to learn Hindi and Sanskrit. I have been told, though do not know for certain if this is true, that the sections of a Mandir can be correlated directly to the body, the soul and the Universe. This is something I would like to learn more about. Regardless, it seemed apropos to me then that the entrance and thus the exit of the most sacred of places in the Mandir, and thus the center of life, would be so small; as if the devotee is born into the realm, (loka?), of the God/Goddess when entering, and then reborn back into the world, with Darshan, upon leaving.

But as I say, these are only the uneducated impressions I felt at the Mandir-s I visited, which seem to correspond to what I am learning of the language and of Mandir-s. I am very happy to learn more, especially if my guesses are very far from the truth. :)

Pranam

yajvan
29 December 2013, 10:03 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

Some very good comments have been offered and are alignment with what I know.

of this one question,

Yet when you come to the garbha gṛha it is with a low entrance... in some temples one needs to bend down significantly to get though.

Aanandinii offers this,

Such low entrances require the devotee to bow low
The notion of bowing low gives us the answer. It is the notion to enter the garbhagṛha which also is another name for the ~heart~ and the ~heart~ is another name for pure awareness, one needs to bow low. But what is this bowing low ? It is humility.

Humility (anuddhata¹) means the absence of ego of 'me', of boundaries. So , within the temple's structure of stone the architect (sthapati¹) represents this bending low, this nīca¹ requirement though the entrance design. To enter into the Supreme, into pure awareness one needs to be without ego, the absence of 'me'. If one is without 'me' then the only other place one can be is with the Supreme , pure undivided awareness.

Now, as one visits the various vimāna-s¹ and one views the garbhagṛha,it is tradition that the visitors line up on each side of the entrance and not directly in front of the entrance ( to look in). Now why would that be ?

iti śivaṁ

words

anuddhata - humble, not lifted up ; unapposed.
In jyotish the term nīca is used, meaning 'low' or fallen.
sthapati - an architect , master builder ; from sthā 'place-lord'
vimāna - is another name for temple; it also means 'measuring out' i.e. where the Infinite is measured out here within the temple walls

Eastern Mind
29 December 2013, 10:39 AM
Vannakkam: Although I know nothing and hesitate to enter discussions to only confirm that, there are two ideas that may be worthy of consideration.

1) In most South Indian agamic temples I have been to, devotees are not allowed inside the moolasthanam or garba-graha, so I don't know how it would feel in there. I have been as close as it's generally allowed though, and yes the energy close is strong.

2) As far as not standing in front, the mystical explanation is that He/She can see you as well as you can see them. So, just as you wouldn't stand in front of or between two people as it would be considered rude, then it is also true that it's rude to be between devotee and God.

Of course I am most likely wrong.

Aum Namasivaya

yajvan
29 December 2013, 11:50 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté


as one visits the various vimāna-s¹ and one views the garbhagṛha,it is tradition that the visitors line up on each side of the entrance and not directly in front of the entrance ( to look in). Now why would that be ?


The bṛhadarāṇyakopaniṣad¹ (kūrca brāhmaṇa section) and the aitareya upaniṣad - 1st adhyāya, 3rd kanda (or chapter 1 part 3) gives us a hint to this answer...

Both upaniṣad-s inform us parokṣa priya iva hi devaḥ - that is, the devatā are fond or like (priya) to be addressed in a certain manner (iva) , parokṣa or secretly, indirect, accordingly (hi).
What would be an example of this ? The very same upaniṣad informs us that indra's name is idandraṁ¹.
Because the devatā's like the indirect method ( say these upaniṣad-s) he is known as indra.

So too with our assembly at the temple. We align on either side of the image of the devatā we find in the garbhagṛha or in the general temple's confines where we see the mūrti-s¹. We are complying with their wishes of priya and parokṣa.

iti śivaṁ

words

bṛhadarāṇyakopaniṣad = bṛhadarāṇyaka upaniṣad
What is being offered is a few things in this name. That the knowledge is being offered is bṛhat - vast , lofty , great , large. It is a vast forest of knowledge. It also infers that, like a forest, it takes some navigation to get around, to find one's way. Hence another definition of bṛhat is 'brightly' and is considered the light to find one's way as it is brightly lit.
Yet too this bṛhat is also of wholeness , of bhuman, because it is another name for brahman - fullness, wholeness itself. Hence from a forest perspective it is composed of all sorts of trees, shrubs, flowers, animals, but together there is the wholeness of the forest, bṛhat.
kūrca - a bunch, a heap;
idandraṁ is a very unique word form. Some tell us it comes from idam adarśam iti.

idam = this or that; it also means known
adarśam = can be viewed as ā-darśa and means a mirror.
iti = thus
Hence this says to me idandraṁ is a reflection (adarśam) of that (idam). Others say idandraṁ means 'It seeing' (It darśa). In both cases what is being seen or reflected ? That or brahman
mūrti - image , symbol, embodiment , manifestation , incarnation , personification

yajvan
29 December 2013, 11:04 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté


I have been told, though do not know for certain if this is true, that the sections of a Mandir can be correlated directly to the body, the soul and the Universe.
This is considered the notion of vāstu-puruṣa - or that cosmic being that is considered the foundation for the temple's layout ( this includes the total site and the temple structures).

The notion is simple - as above so below. What is found in the cosmos is also found here on earth i.e. yathā piṇḍī tathā brahmāṇḍa¹ ( as the whole, so also the part).

iti śivaṁ

words

yathā piṇḍī tathā brahmāṇḍa
yathā = as
tathā - so also , in like manner
piṇḍī - piece;
brahmāṇḍa - the universe

Aanandinii
30 December 2013, 11:35 AM
This is considered the notion of vāstu-puruṣa...

The notion is simple - as above so below. What is found in the cosmos is also found here on earth i.e. yathā piṇḍī tathā brahmāṇḍa ( as the whole, so also the part).
Namaskar Yajvanji,

Thank you for this. I am continually awed an humbled by how gracefully and precisely the scriptures and concepts within Hinduism describe the processes and forms of all of creation, while at the very same time showing us simply why it is so.

It seems to me that Humanity strays so that we may find those answers again the hard way round, only to find that we already had them. Like children who despite all the knowledge of their Parents and Elders, must learn by doing.

Many thanks for reminding me of this again. :)
Pranam

yajvan
30 December 2013, 08:31 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté


Let me offer something that I have yet to find a sutable answer to. Within the garbhagṛha¹ we know that the image (mūrti¹) of the devatā is positioned, hence the name of the temple i.e. devālaya. And we also know that beneath this mūrti is placed a yantra as indicated by Viraja in post 2 above. Now what is below this and what is the significance ?

Both the yantra and the mūrti rest on a stone slab called brahmaśilā.
Below this there are articles that are placed, starting at the very bottom or base stone called ādhāraśilā i.e. ādhāra + śilā or support, substratum + stone.
On top of this stone is placed in the following order:

a pot or nidhikuṃbha (nidhi + kuṃbha = a receptacle, also the sea + pitcher, or water pot )
kūrma and padma ( tortose and lotus) made of stone
kūrma and padma made of silver
kūrma and padma made of gold
yoganālā - tube or vessel ~ funnel like~ made of copper that leads up to the plinth or base of the brahmaśilā aformentioned.These are things beyond the eyesight of the native that visits the temple. What is the significance ? I am still looking for the proper and insightful answer to these symbols. Yet some initial thoughts:

We know without doubt that kūrma is viṣṇu's second incarnation (descent in the form of a tortoise to support the mountain mandara at the churning of the ocean);
We also know that kūrma is considered the earth, a tortoise swimming on the waters ( or in the cosmos);
We know that the padma ( or padmā) is the lotus-hued one or the name of śrī ; and that viṣṇu is considered the lotus-eyed one or pundarīkākśa , the white-lotus (puṇḍarīka) + eyed (akṣa) ; this is the puṇḍa (mark or sign) of viṣṇu or śiva.Now why stone, siver and gold ? Still working this, but we know of the purity of gold and silver, and 'stone' is of the earth, yet this is all conjecture on my part. I offer more conjecture regarding the yoganālā or the connection to the brahmaśilā stone.
The notion of nālā gives us a slight hint. This nālā is also the navel-string . This could be the idea of brahmā emerging from a lotus risen from viṣņu's navel .
These are all ideas, parts, with no certainty offered by me at this time. But we know this... within sanātana dharma we are taught the highest
truths via parokṣa, saṃketa and śailī to give us a deeper sense of the truth. What are these words ?

parokṣa- beyond the range of sight ; in an invisible or imperceptible manner; secretly , mysteriously . We can consider this word to mean subtle, beyond the initial meaning.
The other approach is saṃketa - a hint , sign or signal or gesture . It is rooted (√ ) in kṛ ' to give a signal '.
śailī ( 2nd derivation) is a special or particular interpretation
As more clarity is offered on this matter of the items found between ādhāraśilā and brahmaśilā stones I will share them with you . Note, this at times has taken me years in some instances to substantially 'get it' , and come to an appreciation & the significance of them.


iti śivaṁ


garbhagṛha - see post 1 above
mūrti - image , symbol, embodiment , manifestation , incarnation , personification

yajvan
31 December 2013, 04:09 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté

The layout (survey plot and temple buildings) of the temple is proportioned in squares. Usually 64 or 81 squares are used.

64 = 8x8 ; 8 + 8 = 16 = 15 +1 ; 4² = 16
81 = 9x9 ; 9 + 9 = 18; 8+1 = 9 ; 3² = 9These are jyotish numbers. Do you think there is some reason for these choices ?

iti śivaṁ

yajvan
01 January 2014, 11:14 AM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté



The layout (survey plot and temple buildings) of the temple is proportioned in squares. Usually 64 or 81 squares are used.

64 = 8x8 ; 8 + 8 = 16 = 15 +1 ; 4² = 16
81 = 9x9 ; 9 + 9 = 18; 8+1 = 9 ; 3² = 9These are jyotish numbers. Do you think there is some reason for these choices ?

I have a few ideas on this matter...

Note the base numbers of 8 and 9. The jyotiṣi should spot these numbers as the 9 naisargika (sahaja¹) kārarka-s and the 8 cara kārarka-s i.e. the graha-s some call ~the planets~.
With the 9 naisargika (sahaja¹) kārarka-s all of creation both the human realm and all impersonal things - every thing that exists in brahmā-s creation¹ (thus he is the lord of these 9) that affects the human condition is influenced by the these 9 graha-s.

The cara kārarka-s are the 8 graha-s (less ketu) and is lorded by viṣṇu which influence the sustenance and achievements in one's life and the people that influence this sustenance and achievement both mundane and spiritual.
So, the temple is that which is found in the cosmos (macro) and that which is found on earth (micro) i.e. yathā piṇḍī tathā brahmāṇḍa, from post 7 above.

These graha-s function on 3 levels:


graha devatā or the physical level
adhi-devatā - key here is adhi = over and above , so this is the next level above the 1st level or above graha devatā, and is more refined then the physical i.e. the mental, manas.
pratyadhi devatā - ( adhi = above) and pratya as prayi have a few meanings i.e. ' in the presence of' , 'on par' suggesting in the presence of the highest.So, using this 8 and 9 as a base for calculations also indicate/recognize and align those influences within the temple's construction.

Yet there too there is a rāśi (house) indication of the 8th and 9th houses. I will leave that to your reading within the jyotish HDF folder.


Now there too is another notion to the number 8. In vāstu it is considered an important core number. I have read about it but cannot , with certainty, offer additional insight to this 8 from this vāstu point of view, but will deposit the information in the next post.


iti śivaṁ

words

sahaja - innate , hereditary , original , natural
kārarka - instrumental in bringing about a action; maker or doer
another idea of 'all of creation' is the 8 directions + 1. We know the 8 directions as N,S,E,W, N.E, S.E, N.W., S.W. and the last one in this model is the center ( that goes upward and downward). This center is the brahmāsthan; we can find this brahmāsthan within the center of the temple building or within the survey plot of the temple's site.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/Prambanan_Architectural_Model.jpg/220px-Prambanan_Architectural_Model.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Prambanan_Architectural_Model.jpg)

yajvan
01 January 2014, 12:18 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté



Now there too is another notion to the number 8. In vāstu it is considered an important core number. I have read about it but cannot , with certainty, offer additional insight to this 8 from this vāstu point of view, but will deposit the information in the next post.

It is the notion of space and time... this paper does a most excellent job of outlining the underlying principles:
http://www.vastu-design.com/seminar/9.php


iti śivaṁ

yajvan
01 January 2014, 07:13 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté



regarding 9 and 8.
An interesting note (for me) is the following.

The maṇḍala of 9 x 9 = 81 squares.
The maṇḍala of 8 X 8 = 64 squaresThese ~squares~ are on the ground, is it possible to relate them to some astrological place? Here is one way .

81 X 64 = 3240 ( by the way 3+2+4+0 = 9) . What does this number have to do with anything ? Multiply it by the 5 tattvas ( that which make up the universe) and we get the number 25,920. To a person that studies astronomy this number sort of sticks out. It is the number of years found in the precession of the equinoxes. The figure usually given ( rounded up) is 26,000. Scientists today call out the number as 25,772.
This precession is the wobble of the earth. the wobble is like a top. not just back and forth but in a circular motion. The earth's axis ( from south to north, through the center)points to a pole star, today known as Polaris.; Vega was the pole star around 12,000 BC and will be the pole star again in the year 14,000. Due to this wobble the pole star changes as the axis will point to another star as this wobble continues again and again taking ~26,000 years to come back to the same star (say Polaris).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/Outside_view_of_precession.jpg/350px-Outside_view_of_precession.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Outside_view_of_precession.jpg)


One last note...
I called out the word maṇḍala above. We know it to mean several things e.g. a division or book of the ṛg-veda , a surrounding district or neighboring state, a halo round the sun or moon ,etc. Yet it also means a circle, a the path or orbit of a heavenly body. This is what is ~charted out~ in the photo above, the ~orbit~ of the earth's axis projected in the sky.

iti śivaṁ

Mana
02 January 2014, 12:58 AM
om gurave namah


Dear Yajvan Ji,

Thank you kindly for taking the time to write this wonderfully informative thread, you have invoked the energy of the deva for me, in reverence of my first ever temple visit and puja.
I had the delightful experience of the Nageshvara Jyotirlinga at Jageshwar, of one of the 12 Jyotirlinga.
I can still feel the sound of the hymn and its resonance in what I know understand to be the garbha gṛha; a deep universal connection was there for me in the ancient words of Jyoti sung in puja in this wonderful place, leaving no doubts in my heart, and a libre access to the divine.

Thank you for highlighting this; it is ghee for the lamp of my learning!

Kind regards.

Aanandinii
04 January 2014, 01:19 AM
I can still feel the sound of the hymn and its resonance in what I know understand to be the garbha gṛha; a deep universal connection was there for me in the ancient words of Jyoti sung in puja in this wonderful place, leaving no doubts in my heart, and a libre access to the divine.
Namaskar Manaji,

I know I shouldn't be so surprised, yet I am. Your words mirror my own experience so closely, they've left me happily stunned. It's not that I don't know that many must have such powerful experiences, but that where I live no one ever talks about it. It's not only refreshing to hear someone else's direct experience, but to have it so closely match my own is something of a gift, if that makes sense. Thank you so much for that.

For me it was Mahakaleshwar, and it was like standing in the middle of a live transformer. I was with friends at the time, and none of them noticed anything.
I've never felt anything so powerful, the closest to it in memory was a very long time ago. I too was changed beyond any doubts or questions, and also haven't lost any access or strength to the connection that was opened that day.

Pranam-s, kind sir.

~~~

Namaskar Yajvanji,

I echo Mana's thanks. If not for this thread, I would not have had the gift of his post, but what's more this thread has given me a lot of food for reading and thought, something I always love. Particularly your link a few posts back to the Vastu Design Seminar link regarding time, that is amazing and is going to take some time to consider and digest...

As to the question at hand, I'm afraid I am, (unsurprisingly), no help at all. I am too new to actual fact and scripture to try and dissect language and concepts and so cannot speak to them. As ever, there is far too much to learn and sometimes it feels like no time for it all. :)

I did find This Article (http://enchantingkerala.org/kerala-temples/kerala-temple-complex/concepts-associated-with-the-temple.php) to offer. I found it interesting, but it doesn't cite any references so may not be accurate. I'm going to bet it's nothing new to you though, and may only be of interest to others following this thread.
Instinct tells me there is indeed some simple unifying principle buried at the heart of all the layers of meaning - and there seem to be many here. I hope you share when you find it, this is very interesting.

Pranam-s

yajvan
05 January 2014, 06:45 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté





An interesting note (for me) is the following.

The maṇḍala of 9 x 9 = 81 squares.
The maṇḍala of 8 X 8 = 64 squaresThese ~squares~ are on the ground, is it possible to relate them to some astrological place?

Why square ?

http://ssubbanna.sulekha.com/mstore/ssubbanna/albums/default/vastu_purush.jpg



iti śivaṁ

Mana
06 January 2014, 03:12 AM
om gurave namaḥ


Dear Aanandinii,

Thank you for sharing your experience also; we all perceive so very differently, it is wonderful to find common ground in our experience. It is a curious thing; I find that my sensibilities, which are so energised in these moments, can be so debilitating for me at other times.
I cried with joy during this moment.


... For me it was Mahakaleshwar, and it was like standing in the middle of a live transformer. I was with friends at the time, and none of them noticed anything.
I've never felt anything so powerful, the closest to it in memory was a very long time ago. I too was changed beyond any doubts or questions, and also haven't lost any access or strength to the connection that was opened that day.


I feel blessed to have heard with such vibrancy, the timbre of such ancient verse as these, channelled in such an endearing place.

One of the shanti hymns from the Rk veda which was sung that I truly adore; I must try to learn to recite it also.

Kind regards.

Mana
06 January 2014, 03:22 AM
om gurave namaḥ

Dear Yajvan,


Why square ?

Could it be that the square of the kendra lends its self to stability, where as the trine implies a rotation or vibration, thus change, and as such is not ideal for something that we desire to resist the flow and ebb of time?

Is that not sarvatobhadra chakra that I see? The wording and interior of the yantra differs though, how fascinating.



Kind regards.

yajvan
06 January 2014, 07:39 PM
hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~
namasté



Could it be that the square of the kendra lends its self to stability, where as the trine implies a rotation or vibration, thus change, and as such is not ideal for something that we desire to resist the flow and ebb of time?

A jyotish view

trikoṇa -s - the 1st ,5th, and 9th houses are owned (lorded) by śrī lakṣmī (prosperity)
kendra-s - the 1st 4th, 7th and 10th are owned by śrī viṣṇi (sustenance of all creation) trikoṇa = trine = triangle or 120º shape change
kendra = quadrant = square 90º shape change

Other views
A triangle is most stable - each side is a base that can support the other two sides. A square or ~ quad~ if dissected corner-to-corner is composed or contains two triangles.

Some say a square is the best use of space; others say the square has two horizontal and two vertical lines - inferring perfect rest (horizontal) with vertical lines of movement, yet too the vertical lines are restful.
Others tell us the 4 sided figure is a representation of the 4 dimensions and the 4 directions. Still others infer the 4 pūruṣārthara-s or four aims of existence or human pursuit : kāma ,artha , dharma , mokṣa.
I have also heard the 4 sided figure represents the 5 tattva-s, with the 5th tattva being the space inside the 4 sided figure and/or the space that allows the 4 sided figure to exist.

As you can see this square is rich in meaning, and the specific ~exact~ meaning may still be at hand.

iti śivaṁ

Mana
07 January 2014, 02:04 AM
Dear Yajvan,

I thought this to be of interest also.

The Diamond which is one of the hardest forms of "material" or pRithvi on this earth, has a molecular structure, an explicative mathematical model; in which each molecule is connected to four others to establish the extremely solid and stable form of the tetrahedral.

5 molecules, with 4 bonds.


http://1-ps.googleusercontent.com/h/www.weldons.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/272x265xtetrahedral-carbon-1.gif.pagespeed.ic.F6vK_rLK3p.jpg

It is of interest here to mention that the pRithvi tattva maṇḍala of mūlādhāra cakra as sited in the śāradā tilaka tantram, as being visualised upon a yellow square with a white crystal inside meditated upon with the laṁ bija.

Fascinating imagery and practise, I believe deeply connected with the establishment of temples.

Kind regards.

Aanandinii
07 January 2014, 08:17 PM
Namaskar Yajvanji,

I am aware I am getting in quite over my head and want to qualify all this with the statement that I am making fairly blind statements here and have nothing to back up the ideas I'm about to posit. I am also coming from a western culture point of view. But I wish to respectfully submit my uneducated thoughts to the discussion, as I've been thinking about this.

When I see a square or cube, I also immediately see the positive space which it defines: a circle or sphere. One implies the other, by its very definition.
When I hear "As above, so below", I think of the patterns we see in nature again and again, from the unimaginably large to the smallest possible measured size.

To me a figure within a square also reminds me of proportion, geomitry in nature and mathematics, thanks to Leonardo DaVinci. I see the Purusa Mandala below, and I remember that quite vividly.



http://ssubbanna.sulekha.com/mstore/ssubbanna/albums/default/vastu_purush.jpg

There are natural laws of proportion and patterns repeat. I look at Purusha Mandala and I see a 3 dimensional space interpreted in 2 dimensions.

That's what the person in me, raised in this culture sees. Having read a little of Vastu Design Concepts now, I also see the layout of an ancient home, (perhaps the root for all eastern architectural tradition?), and the guideline to plan the construction of ancient towns, temples and cities. So, perhaps the Purusha Manadala is not just the guideline for the structure of Human dwellings and cities, but also of the cities of the Devas and Asuras? A map of the great cities of the three worlds, perhaps.

And if Purusha was dismembered to create the Universe as we know it now, as some translations say, maybe the universe and cities and homes and human bodies and temples, all are a part of the pattern. Perhaps they all reflect each other in how they are constructed, making this is a map of the physical and the spiritual realms. And I find myself wondering if the gods/goddesses in specific quadrants of the mandala relate specifically to the sections of the physical body imposed by Purusha in this mandala, in some way. Aside from God, or the path to Moksha, at the crown that is.

And very probably all of this is already known and I am missing the point entirely. :)

#/philosophy.
All is pure speculation on my part.

Pranam-s

~~~

Namaskar Manaji,


It is a curious thing; I find that my sensibilities, which are so energised in these moments, can be so debilitating for me at other times.
I cried with joy during this moment.
Me as well. My own sensibilities are often something of a handicap in many situations, I understand.
I didn't cry at the time, I was too stunned. But I did later and still do sometimes. I would like to learn what the chant was, but I have no idea. Perhaps you might learn yours for both of us. :)

Pranam-s

Aanandinii
07 January 2014, 08:40 PM
Namaskar,

Apologies for the double post, but this article (http://arganesh3.wordpress.com/2012/11/03/vaastu-science-part-1/) better describes some of my above sketched out thoughts. This may also pertain to some of the Temple architecture observations from earlier. Perhaps you are guiding us to this, Yajvanji? :)

I need to order that book the blogger quotes as a reference.

Pranam-s

Edit to add: I had another thought relating to Manaji's crystal lattice... The Mandala certainly does remind me of a crystalline lattice, and even of the structure of growing crystals. More patterns.
Also, one other pattern based on the idea I had today, inspired partly by Manaji's earlier observations relating to Tetrahedron crystalline structure and my earlier thoughts of of 3 dimensions rendered in 2: Something I've read more than once in Vastu design articles recently is that even the smallest measurable unit of space is a cube or square. So, if one is to take this as a map of space on all scales, then one must also account for the dimension of time. What does 4 dimensional space look like? A Tesseract (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesseract#Image_gallery), composed of 8 cubes the vertices of which are Tetrahedrons - the 16th Tetrahedron projects to infinity. I can also see this in the Purusha Manadala, if I look.

Again I find myself more surprised than perhaps I should be. Am I reading into things here, or is there really a connection?

Mana
10 January 2014, 12:53 AM
Dear Aanandinii,

I find your expression of you understanding to be quite wonderful, it is I think worthy of note that the "rigidity" of the perceived structures which indeed do underlay our world, is that they are only models, and as such remain within limits.
That which we are perceiving is a "toned down version" of the true nature that we are percieving.

For an example of this, is the Mathematical problem to which your intuition has directed you, which is squaring the circle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squaring_the_circle); This is still impossible to solve to this day. But enormous fun to investigate if we are that way inclined. I get the impression that you already have a good grasp of geometry.
Your line of thought, is to my mind verging towards fractal geometry, which you may very much enjoy.

We might by comparison compare this to the use of Abhijit Nakshatra to make our calendar fit to the flow of time; a thought which is based upon my current, somewhat limited understanding.

I shall make an enquiry, to see if I can find out which hymn in particular it was that I enjoyed so much; it would be my pleasure to share that with you.

Kind regards.

Mana
12 January 2014, 03:39 AM
Dear Aanandinii, Yajvan,

Please do excuse my distraction from the them of this thread Yajvan; for me this will always be associated with my first temple visit.

This was the particular verse Aanandinii; although its resonance was quite different, being somewhat lower in pitch and quite a different timbre.

कर्पूरगौरं करुणावतारम् |
karpūragauraṁ karuṇāvatāram |
संसारसारं भुजगेन्द्रहारम् ||
saṁsārasāraṁ bhujagendrahāram ||
सदा वसन्तं हृदयारविन्दे |
sadā vasantaṁ hṛdayāravinde |
भवं भवानि सहितं नमामि ||
bhavaṁ bhavāni sahitaṁ namāmi ||

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAA2LMhXons

Kind regards.

Aanandinii
18 January 2014, 06:26 PM
Dear Manaji, Namaskar,

First, I would like to apologize for not replying sooner, things have been somewhat busy recently. Thank you so much for your replies.

You give me far too much credit. I understand little, if anything, but thank you for the complement. Instinct has served me well to a degree, but it is no replacement for true learning, study and wisdom. I have very little of the first two and none of the last, though perhaps one day... Maybe the next life. :o

Most of the learning I have is in the western sciences and philosophies. While I have explored eastern thought and Sanatana Dharma some, I haven't begun studying in-depth until recently. This has been part of my journey this birth, I think, finding and realizing the Truth behind the toned down Model which we perceive. Completely agreed, the seeming rigidity of form from our limited view of reality is only part of the illusion. All is motion, all is vibration, all is the Dance. The Tesseract and other multi-dimensional structure models are not stationary at all. Mathematically speaking, the moving model is theoretically what actually happens in such a dimensional space, and may be an explanation for the seeming direction to the flow of time as that fourth dimension is actually time itself.

I remember that geometry problem, but haven't thought about it in some time. Wow, I hadn't even considered it's application here. Very interesting! I was reading an article (http://arganesh3.wordpress.com/category/science-2/vastu-and-vaastu-science/) recently that I found familiar in a way I couldn't quite place. This would be what I couldn't quite put my finger on! Thank you. :)

Geometry has never really been a strong subject for me, though as an artist I have a strong appreciation for it. Physics though is a subject I've always loved. I very much love the simple beauty of String Theory and M Theory, but even the Standard Model of Quantum Mechanics seems to strongly echo Vedic and Tantric concepts as I currently understand them. While I do enjoy fractal geometry and I did partly mean that, I also meant patterns such as strings, helixes and spheres on all scales of the Universe, and in all dimensions. I completely agree, if I understand you correctly, that the full scale of Reality is something much deeper and of more dimensions that we are capable of perceiving from this plane, when bound to a limited, 4 dimensional form. To me that is part of how I understand maya.

Something I found very interesting, an idea, is the representation of God, Gods and Dimensional Space through Mandalas. An example is Lord Ganesha as the First Guru, great teacher of the school of Existence, who holds the Universe in His body. In the school I have been studying, He is equated with Reality on the 4-dimensional level we incarnate in and His mandala is the 8-petaled Lotus. A mathematical representation of the Tesseract, as 4 dimensional Space-Time, in two dimensions is:
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm120/SisterOfKarn/Various%20Forum%20Stuff/HDF%20pics/2e147e6a-6e40-4722-8569-e1443aa4f6da_zpsb5c4ce42.png
I find myself wondering if other representations of dimensional spaces have similar parallels to mandalas.

Returning to the specific topic of the thread, the more I read the more I find that the sciences in the Vedas appear to often speak of vibrations and the specific vibrations of specific forms of being. What I have been reading in relation to Vastu science and design seems geared towards representing the vibration of life, creation and god in a structure, so as to make that structure vibrate in as close to a similar a frequency as possible. In a sense, the Temple constructed in this way becomes a living structure, thus the chakras and representation of the Universe, both in the overall shape and design, and also in the building of the altar from the very foundations of the temple, which Yajvanji described in the beginning of this discussion. This has become my theory for the time being as to a possible answer to the questions he has posed: it is part of the design that breathes life into the Temple itself.

I will have to look up what you mean about Abhijit Nakshatra. I don't know much about Jyotish, though it's a subject I'm looking forward to studying more. I'm awaiting some records on my birth so I can learn my Nakshatra, so I've set that study aside for now.

Thank you so much for sharing the Hymn, Manaji. This is wonderful, it was one of the first I heard and learned as well, though until now I have never heard a traditional rendition of it, and only knew it through a modern interpretation performed as a bhajan. Thank you, it's a piece of warm sun in the winter. :)

Warm Regards and Pranams

Mana
19 January 2014, 05:25 AM
.........

Mana
19 January 2014, 05:29 AM
Dear Aanandinii,

Thank you for your thought provoking posting. Please don't underestimate you mathematical ability; I find that those of mathematical vision often do so, due to lack of confidence, in a world which is rather dominated by calculative thought.

It could be very interesting to consider the Tesseract as an expression of the expansion of the pa�ca mahābhūta from the tanmāntrā; I wonder, have you considered this?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Dimension_levels.svg/385px-Dimension_levels.svg.png

0 = ākāśa = śabda tanmātrā.
1 = vāyu = śabda + sparśa tanmātrā.
2 = agni = śabda + sparśa + rūpa tanmātrā.
3 = jala = śabda + sparśa + rūpa + rasa tanmātrā.
4 = pṛithvi = śabda + sparśa + rūpa + rasa + gandha tanmātrā.

śāradā tilakaṁ tantram 1.22.

It is of interest to note that the square is given in śāradā tilakaṁ, to be the form of the mandala for meditation upon mūlādhāra the planet of which is mangala, of mahatattva agni.

Kind regards.

Aanandinii
21 January 2014, 10:50 PM
Namaskar Dear Manaji,

It's a shame there is no emoticon that represents my brain's small explosion when I saw your reply. Indeed no, never put these together, I'm still learning these concepts.

My mind is spinning with many new questions and thoughts. I need time to consider this some from a few angles before I can offer anything even approaching coherent. Wow.

But I didn't want to go for a long time without responding here. And I want to thank you for this as well. I will reply again as soon as i have gathered and ordered my thoughts some. Thank you for this very interesting insight! :)

Kind Regards and Pranams