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Anirudh
05 January 2014, 12:34 AM
Namaste HDF,

I am reading Raamayanam and Mahaabhaaratham for quite some time now. These scriptures have recorded the history of Bhaarathvarsh revolving around Shree Krishna and Shree Raama.

From time to time, I have seen few (Shiva vs Vishnu) controversial discussion linked to these epics. For eg,

Birth of Hanumaan,
who authored Bhagavath Gita - Shiva or Krishna?
whether Shree Raam returned to Raameshwaram after slaying Raavana etc.

And such discussion when twisted become fodder for anti Hindus and anti nationalists.

After reading these kinds of controversial questions have got a very basic question. Should we consider our epics as Vaishnava scripture or Shiva scripture? I believe that these two are Vaishnava scripture but would like to hear from learned members.

The answer will help me to discard claims which are irrelevant or geographically influenced.

Omkara
05 January 2014, 01:02 AM
Namaste HDF,

I am reading Raamayanam and Mahaabhaaratham for quite some time now. These scriptures have recorded the history of Bhaarathvarsh revolving around Shree Krishna and Shree Raama.

From time to time, I have seen few (Shiva vs Vishnu) controversial discussion linked to these epics. For eg,

Birth of Hanumaan,
who authored Bhagavath Gita - Shiva or Krishna?
whether Shree Raam returned to Raameshwaram after slaying Raavana etc.

And such discussion when twisted become fodder for anti Hindus and anti nationalists.

After reading these kinds of controversial questions have got a very basic question. Should we consider our epics as Vaishnava scripture or Shiva scripture? I believe that these two are Vaishnava scripture but would like to hear from learned members.

The answer will help me to discard claims which are irrelevant or geographically influenced.

The Ramayana and Mahabharata belong to every Hindu and every Indian. If Muslim Egyptians can take pride in Rameses, Hathsepsut and Cleopatra despite these ancient Egyptians not being Muslim, if Greeks can take pride in Achilles and Leonides despite these ancient Greeks not being Christian, why can't all Indians take pride in Rama and Krishna?

Devi Dasi
05 January 2014, 05:04 PM
Hare Krsna,

Very interesting topic.

"...who authored Bhagavath Gita - Shiva or Krishna?
>>These scriptures have recorded the history of Bhaarathvarsh revolving around Shree Krishna and Shree Raama.<< If the scripture says Shri Krsna or Shri Rama, then why controversy? Clearly it says what it says. So for Vaishnavas there is no controversy at all. At same time, another sampraday, like Shaivas believe Lord Shiva is the Supreme-most, and will interpret accordingly, thus Lord Krsna uvacha will for them be understood as of the eternal which they understand as Shiva nama. This is philosophical disagreement only since such persons are according highest respect to Mahabharat and it's jewel Bhagavad-Gita and interpreting to their school of understanding.


After reading these kinds of controversial questions have got a very basic question. Should we consider our epics as Vaishnava scripture or Shiva scripture?They are scripture. To Vaishnavas, of course read as self-evident as technically Vaishnava scripture, clearly central to all schools of Vaishnavism. To any other school, Shaiva, Shakta, Smarta, Yogic, Tantric, Advaitic, whatever, who interprets as scripture, it belongs also to them, since God is speaking (Shri Krsna uvacha understood according to their personal understanding of Paramatman). To every Indian, it belongs as point of heritage and direct Bharatiya history and transmitter of Sanskriti, or culture. To world, it belongs as message of eternal truths. The particular understandings and interpretations of course will differ based on the mind of the person who reads it. Message will be in a way the person can best understand. Without doubt, most persons who are not Mahabhagavats or have attained Turiya consciousness, do not fully understand the fullest teachings. But something is there for everyone. So in one sense, these itihasas belong to the whole world and not just a particular school.

Point of dismay comes when certain politically motivated anti-Vaishnavas begin to rudely deride such important scriptures as invalid, unnecessary, Abrahamically altered or to impute various modern political problems like anti-feminism, anti-Shaiva etc, to the message and promote division agenda.


And such discussion when twisted become fodder for anti Hindus and anti nationalists.Indeed.

-please forgive my mistakes

Anirudh
05 January 2014, 06:29 PM
Namaste Omkara,

Hopefully I did not offend anyone's sentiment here and that was not my intention. I want to make my reply as short as possible without missing the crux.

Let me answer the question you have asked first...

Feeling pride about a thing is different from being authentic to comment or explain the same. As an Indian proud of our recent achievement. But my citizenship alone do not provide necessary skill set to comment or criticize or debate on the technical aspect of cryogenic engines.

I started this thread with 2 expectations in mind.

#1. to learn more about Sreeman Naaraayana
#2. to weed out the unauthentic/false representation of HIS history

In the past, had been praying to all devatas and visiting different temples. Steadily my devotion to Sreeman Naaraayan started growing. With due respect to other Shakhas let me tell you, at some in time my heart got fixed to Sreeman Naaraayan. And thus became a Vaishnavite.

I find some Vaishnavites mixing up Shaivism and Vaishnavism. I think this is quite a recent effect probably began with the Islamic invaders or during Buddha / Jaina period.My belief is if we weed out our epics (as they are the recorded history of our beloved country) we ll be doing a great service to our kids.

Accept it or not, We (SD followers) become a laughing stock due to this Kichadi. So when ever I find discrepancies ask the members politely to share their wisdom.

Anirudh
05 January 2014, 06:43 PM
Namaste,

I just read your reply. Thank you very much Devi Dasa for sharing your wisdom. I found your explanation logical and informative. If I have more doubts will add it to the same post later today.

isavasya
05 January 2014, 07:00 PM
Namaste Anirudh

As a non-Shaiva and a non-vaishnav and as a non-denominational Hindu, I do not see any controversies in our epics. The epics to me represent how to deal with various situations in life. I am not very close to sri Krishna so never feel emotionally attached to Mahabharata. But sri Ramchandra represents one of the most ultimate person to me along with Shiva/Parvati. I see him as truly a great person who upheld maryada and morality under testing conditions.

Obviously if one were to see these texts in light of personal God then one can have various interpretations. Epics contain Adityahridayam , Vishnu sahasranama as well as Shiva sahasranama eulogizing various Gods as Brahman. So one category of people won't really see it as divide between sects but in fact opposite of that. Further to give my own opinion I do not take everything in these texts as literal truth. As a person who believes in darwins theory and who has opposed creationist views of Christians/Muslims, I personally do not believe that there was a time 100000 years back as has been described as various yugas in which there was enough developed homo sapiens to believe in literal truth of the texts. I see the epics as allegorical way of teaching dharma.

Amrut
06 January 2014, 12:33 AM
The Ramayana and Mahabharata belong to every Hindu and every Indian. If Muslim Egyptians can take pride in Rameses, Hathsepsut and Cleopatra despite these ancient Egyptians not being Muslim, if Greeks can take pride in Achilles and Leonides despite these ancient Greeks not being Christian, why can't all Indians take pride in Rama and Krishna? same?

+1 I fully agree

I agree with Devi Dasi too.

I remember what Appayya Dikshita has said, 'What can be said when Brahma Sutra is capable of multiple interpretations'.

So take what appeals you. Admittedly there may be interpolations here and there, that does no make the whole of our shastra-s bogus. Their aim is to cultivate bhakti (and Jnana), which they do.

Hari OM

Ganeshprasad
06 January 2014, 04:37 AM
Pranam

Never viewed anything other then Ithihas, only humans get tangled in the web off me and mine.
Great instructions in Dharma and the way of correct conduct in society.

Jai Shree Krishna

Amrut
06 January 2014, 05:02 AM
Namaste,

Local stories related to Sri Rama and Shiva Linga, which are not found in Valmiki Ramayana are found in either Sthala Puranas or in other versions of Ramayana like Anand Ramayana, Adbhuta Ramayana, which some say fill in the gaps in original ramayana.

but in Some versions of Ramayana, mostly Adbhuta Ramayana, it is said that Sita was daughter of Ravan and Mandodari.

I remember Kanchi Paramacharya citing certain Shala purana-s in which describe 3 places about 150 Km away from each other, where Bhagavan Rama installed Shiva Linga (3 in total).

btw, Anirudh bhai, I think you are becoming a pakkA Vaishnava :D :crazy: , dont mind (just an observation since you posted in a thread directing to Mahapashupatastra blog)

<of topic>
I hope AAP (Aam Aadmi Party) is an opportunity that you may be looking for, sorry for side tracking the thread.
</of topic>

Jai Shri Rama

ShivaFan
06 January 2014, 06:35 AM
Namaste

There were no Sanskrit inscriptions found
at Mohanjodaro or Harrappa sites. Despite interpretations as to the date of this civilization aside certainly all agree it is very ancient, so does that mean Indus Valley civilization was not "Hindu" if as some claim Sanskrit is the definitive marker of "Hinduism" (scripture, "language" of the "Gods" etc.)?

The events of History described in the Ramayana and MB, were they before, during or after the age of this Indus Valley civilization?

I would argue before. But we find no evidence of Vaishnava specific sect such as in carved depictions at those sites. Why?
Were there Vaishnavs then at that time in this region of India of that civilization? What parts of India was Bharat then?

Who were the human Vaishnavas before Ram and Krishna, what avatar murti did they worship in temples? Varaha was before Ram and Krishna, I made mention of Sri and Bhu in another post, I will say in my understanding the consort of Varaha was Bhu Devi, and She is not exactly the same as Lakshmi but She is of the Earth and a manifestation of Vishnu's Sakti, Vishnu had more than one "consort", Bhu is the universal Earth and all things of "wealth" found thereof and Sri is the personal Reward of protecting Bhu. On Bhumi, lives the humans. Sri is on the Chest of Vishnu, He possesses the personal "reward" of Sri as Lakshmi because He protects the universal Bhu the Devi of Bhumi where humans live, meaning whenever adharma reigns in this realm of humans, Narayana comes down here to save us. Of course, events of Vishnu and the Devatas span regions much broader than this one place where me and you and billions of other humans live, but we can see that this Earth is perhaps a special place.

It may be unique as far as the universe is concerned, we humans perhaps are very lucky to live here in one way. Now let us take the time of Rama. This may not be your understanding, it is my undedstanding, but we are both Hindus:

Lanka is on Bhumi. It was once ruled by Kubera who is a Shree Deva and Vedic. In my opinion, He was the (step)-brother of Ravana, who essentially stole the rulership of Lanka and it's realm from Kuvera, Kub considered the Chamber Lord of Earth treasures. For in Lanka are found Hiras or a type of jewels also known as Shiva Hiras (Saiva stones) which today we have the word sapphires (Saiv Hiras). You may sometimes find Kubera standing right next to, and worshipped with, Lakshmi.

Rama then came down to this Earth due to the need to protect dharma, but also to protect Bhumi which is, IMHO, a special place. After all, Ravan was reeking havoc on many lokas, and not just here on Bhumi. Yet it was this place when it was that Rama would come. Here. This place. Which humans live. Which is special.

Now I am going to say something which some may find controversial. We call that time as documented in History as the Ramayana. It was not just Rama Who came here, to Bhumi.

Many, many Devatas came. Many. Sheshnag came. Bhu Devi came (Sita). Shiva came, too. Many others. When Rama was "born", it is my understanding that He is half-human and half-Vishnu.

Of course, He is also fully Vishnu.

This seems a contradiction, But not to my understanding. Two truths can seem opposite side-by-side, but both can be true. Rama was half-human and could actually feel the pain of the humans, yet He can also be fully Vishnu at the same moment. He is the Perfect Man. Man is also human.

Rama came and protected this rather remote place we call Bhumi. This was not the first time Narayana would do so, nor would it be the last. Many Others came too, at that time.

Just think how lucky we are, actually.

The Ramayana does not "belong" to Vaishnavas. It is a scripture and History of what happened. Many came. Some are still here. Many had a part to play. The Ramayana belongs to all Hindus. There are many, many "threads" in the Ramayana. They intersect and weave across all of Hinduism and all "sects".

There is much to be said of the time of Krishna as well, but for now I have to get ready for another day on Bhumi Mother Earth, so I might comment some other time but I am just a lay Hindu, a common Hindu, a village Hindu, a populist Hindu, living in a lucky place in one way. I have to get ready for another day.

Om Namah Sivaya

Amrut
06 January 2014, 07:05 AM
Dear Anurudha bhai,

Your intention to weed out interpolations is not bad, however, so many parameters are involved that after all it becomes a guess work. Hence better would be to neglect that you may think is suspicious. There is enough material for all. since these type of work is a subjective matter, it may happen that some scholars may remove some matter and some may remove another. If we wish to be safe and remove all the objectionable content, then I guess, after some centuries what will be left?

If some will remove some content and claim their version to be free of interpolations, then we will have multiple versions, each group calling it a genuine. Again it will be a mess.

I know you have a kind heart. But I feel, it is better keep things as they are. Please do not think too much analytically. It is a waste of time. This is my humble opinion.

Jai Shri Rama

Anirudh
06 January 2014, 07:35 AM
Namaste Amrut ji,



dont mind (just an observation since you posted in a thread directing to Mahapashupatastra blog)


No offence taken. On the contrary, as I am learning to adhere the doctrines of Sri Vaishnavism your words are true compliment.

I have got a long way to reach (at least) one tenth of the faith Nambi Rangarajan had on Sreeman Naaraayan.



... (Aam Aadmi Party) is an opportunity that you may be looking ...

My stand is, few stories are unconvincing. They make us a laughing stock. If I have a magic wand will broom it out. But that's not going to happen. So only viable option is to get clarified on certain parts without hurting any members or degrading any devatas.

Even if I do not see things from VA point of view, wonder how Shree Goswami ji could visualize what Vaalmiki had failed to document.

Anirudh
06 January 2014, 08:03 AM
Namaste Ganesh prasad ji

Thank you very much for sharing your views.

Amrut
06 January 2014, 09:59 AM
My stand is, few stories are unconvincing. They make us a laughing stock. If I have a magic wand will broom it out. But that's not going to happen. So only viable option is to get clarified on certain parts without hurting any members or degrading any devatas.



Namaste Anirudh ji,

Best thing I find is to adopt nAhi nindA nyaya. It helps a lot to neutralize all types of contradictions *and does not hurt anyone's sentiments. Somethings, I feel, should be neglected. We have to move on. Everything will be unfolded at a proper time. Have faith. Trust Sri Rama.

Nahi Ninda Nyaya (http://indiaspirituality.blogspot.com/2013/09/nahi-ninda-nyaya.html)
Contradictory stories in Puranas 'same moral of the story' (http://indiaspirituality.blogspot.com/2013/09/contradictory-stories-in-puranas-same.html)

I am happy that you have finally settled down. Good luck with your spiritual progress. May Sri Rama guide you all the time.

Namo Narayana

Anirudh
06 January 2014, 11:22 AM
Namaste Amrut ji,


I am happy that you have finally settled down.

Yes, I have. Sree Raama Chandra Prabhu took that decision. I hadn't known about Saranagathi when I actually surrendered to him. Remember I had stopped posting for about 3 or 4 months. Those were the best educative period of my life.



Good luck with your spiritual progress. May Sri Rama guide you all the time.

Thank you very much for your wishes. Sree Raama Chandra Prabhu is always with me. Some times my ignorance stop him from guiding me, but then, his grace is always the winner.



Best thing I find is to adopt nAhi nindA nyaya. It helps a lot to neutralize all types of contradictions *and does not hurt anyone's sentiments. Somethings, I feel, should be neglected. We have to move on. Everything will be unfolded at a proper time. Have faith. Trust Sri Rama.

I understand nAhi nindA nyaya. I do not disrespect any devata, but accepting something illogical is also a sin. Like I mentioned in the previous post, my questions were to gain clarity.

Like the present generation women, Sita Maata could have dumped Sree Raam when Raavan offered fortune to her. Vaalmiki Raamaayanam does not describe Raavan as a loser but as a learned successful person. So for such a lover present day women will not think twice. but Sita Maata didn't give into pressure or for luxury.

Even after returning to Ayodhya her happiness was short lived. Her life and the decisions she took during trying circumstances teaches us many things. Who in the present world will live in one single Saree for around 10 months when entire kingdom of Raavan was at the snap of her fingers. a\

I don't see her as a weak character as many anti Hindus would want us to believe. On the contrary she is very strong, in fact stronger than Shree Raama Chandra Prabhu...

When we try to understand the deep meaning of her characterization other stories like "she was not abducted and all" are pure dampener. if she was not abducted and her mirror image was abducted was the original Sita playing marbles when so many Vaanar sacrificed their life for her?

I can go on and on, but sadly don't have a magic wand :D

Anirudh
06 January 2014, 08:42 PM
Namaste ShivaFan,

You have made many interesting points. It is definitely a food for thought but you seemed to have missed the point. When you find time, kindly go through the factors that led me to make that question.

For a moment, let me assume that our epics are not Vaishnava centric. Then, are we ready to live with those innumerable contradictions?...

I shall go through your post and share my answers in due course of time. In the process I am sure of learning many news things....

Thanks again for sharing your views....

Eastern Mind
06 January 2014, 09:08 PM
I believe that these two are Vaishnava scripture but would like to hear from learned members.



Vannakkam: For what it's worth, I arrived at the very same conclusion some 35 years ago. But I am just one opinion, and I certainly don't like to argue it. So, for me, just as non-Hindu scriptures are irrelevant, so too are these. But in the spirit of Hindu Solidarity, I respect them, and the right for Vaishnavas and any others to enjoy them, see them as literal history, or whatever they wish. We (well, most of us) tolerate others views within the brotherhood of Hinduism, even when we hold personal differences of opinion.

But I will most likely get in 'trouble' for saying this. :)

Aum Namasivaya

Amrut
06 January 2014, 11:32 PM
Namaste

I agree with Anirudh ji and EM ji

Hari OM

Ganeshprasad
07 January 2014, 05:15 PM
Pranam

Never viewed anything other then Ithihas, only humans get tangled in the web off me and mine.
Great instructions in Dharma and the way of correct conduct in society.

Jai Shree Krishna

Pranam

If I may expand a bit more, no doubt both epic, are the history of Bharat Varsa, depicts Rama lila and Krishna lila and it is true that Vaishnava worship both this deities but that does not make it a Vaishnava literature nor does the epic it self make such a claim. Strictly speaking one is a history of Suryavansa and the other a Chandravansa.

Ramayan depicts the nobel character of Shree Ram, Rishi Valmiki does not portray him as Brahman but the emphasis on his role as human, how he is a obedient son, a brother,a friend, a husband and above all a King following proper Dharma but that not all. In its earlier history of Raghu dynasty one would learn the compassion of King Sibi who offered his own flesh to save the dove. Of Harishchandra Satyavadi who did not wavered from the sticking with truth. even today in the city of Kashi bare witness to Harishchandra ghat, people go to Kashi to die to get cremated at the famous ghat. Story of Vishvamitra and his struggle with Brahmrishi Vasitha.

MAHABHARAT is even more varied and each character tops another, i wouldn’t even know where to begin, Lord Krishna is part of it but he comes much later. in the later stage the story revolves mainly around Kurus and the Pandavas. These are epic of great proportion a history of Bharat, no Hindus in India looks upon it as a sectarian literature. it is mischievous of anyone to suggest otherwise.

Jai Shree Krishna

Amrut
07 January 2014, 11:10 PM
Namaste,

I do not mind someone calling it as my scripture, say it is Vaishnava scripture, if one is talking as a Vishnu bhakta. But if one is implying that a certain scripture belongs to certain vaishnava panth, following certain siddhanta (dvaita, VA, etc), then I would disagree, as shruti-s and smriti-s and itihAsa-s and purANa-s are no body's exclusive property :)

It is our interpretation of a shruti. Interpretation itself cannot be called as shruti. It is the understanding of the author.

Hari OM

Anirudh
08 January 2014, 12:05 AM
Namaste Ganesh Prasad ji and others who contributed to this thread,



no doubt both epic, are the history of Bharat Varsa, depicts Rama lila and Krishna lila and it is true that Vaishnava worship both this deities but that does not make it a Vaishnava literature nor does the epic it self make such a claim.
Strictly speaking one is a history of Suryavansa and the other a Chandravansa.


These are epic of great proportion a history of Bharat, no Hindus in India looks upon it as a sectarian literature.




Thanks for sharing your views.

From all of the input shared here, it is clear that both (central characters) Sree Raam and Sree Krshna are Vaishnava deities. But that alone is not sufficient to claim it as a Vaishnava scripture. I will end this thread now.

I hope the members won't be divided if I say, Sree Veda Vyasa and Sree Vaalmiki have composed these scriptures. I am with a opinion, the authenticity of certain portions described in other versions are questionable because they do not correlate with the central theme of these two epics.

In due course of time will create many child threads addressing specific issues. We can continue our discussion in future pertaining to specific issues.

aupmanyav
03 July 2014, 10:26 AM
The answer will help me to discard claims which are irrelevant or geographically influenced.Don't. 'Hari Ananta, hari kathaa anaataa'. Whatever a person believes.